From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
Were there any Asian-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanics? Just Haitians and "Whites"...
From: United States, New Jersey
OoH' BOY !! Negative Press ..
Am never going to hear the end of this coming from my colleagues...
I can hear the Platano bashing chants already...
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 12:41 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
There are too many illegal haitians in DR. If you don't have any papers you have to go just like in the US. No exceptions!! I just hope that those people are illegal.
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Jan 2008 2:27 PM
From: Brazil
That fact alone makes this highly suspicious in my opinion, mr. baldoria. Furthermore, I consider this protest ill-timed, considering that the public outcry about the foundation of the haitian/dominican movement-party is still fresh, and after the inmigration authorities announcement that the year 2007 was the year in which less deportations took place of the entire decade (17,000 versus the past years average of 25,000). If this people keeps mounting the pressure against the dominican state, they run the risk of producing a backlash like the one that happened after the incidents of Hatillo Palma, and what is worse yet, they run the risk of empowering the hard liners of the political system even more than they already are, which are only looking for an excuse to pressure the state into carrying out their sinister agendas, considering the state ambigous behaviour in all this drama. (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Jan 2008 2:46 PM
From: Brazil
All the more because this conservative hard liners consider that, the haitian-dominicans, in wanting to enter the political arena, have crossed the limits of their tolerance, the hard liners reasoning of the role of that community on this country being as follows: "you can enter our country, work our fields and construction projects for the wage that we dictate, and, if you behave and know your place well enough for our liking, we might grant you id's to vote for us on the elections but BEWARE, if you dare to encroach our political and economical privileges, we'll crush with all the might that our power over the state grant us". That's the conservative hard liners creed, in my humble opinion.
Written by: cpone, 4 Jan 2008 3:13 PM
From: United States
This is probably the same folks that believe the illegal immigration should continue here in the US uncontrolled.
Deport them DR. Deport them all with no legal immigration into the country.
Because Haiti has destroyed its economy, has destroyed its economy doesn't give it carte blanche to come into DR as they please.
From: Haiti
Ay mi madre!!!! No lo puedo creer.!! After reading this article I dont know should I laugh or take this seriously. Haitians and whites at the dominican embassy in the damn freezing cold near Time Square protesting. Reading the title I thought haitians,the white ones, are protesting at the dominican embassy. riendo a carcajadas..LOL.. Ok a bit serious now..Lautaro, I have to agree with you that this will only feed the conservatives rhetorics that haitians or there descendents want to obliviate the dominicans. Unfortunately this is only going to awaken the antihaitianismo in the barrios and cause incidents such as the ones you mentioned above.
I think we should be very careful with our actions. And for those dominicans in the diaspora seeking a better life saying "deport the haitians", I say pack up your bags back to the DR then someone might take your diatribes into consideration.
Instead of seeing each other as enemies we should sit down and discuss this delicate issue
Written by: tejada, 4 Jan 2008 3:59 PM
From: United States
I say kick them all out of D.R., and no, this has nothing to do with racism; it has everything to do with patriotism. Why should we allow any other nation to come illegally into ours? The same goes for all those Dominicans to leave D.R. illegally and into the US. Yes, they should be kicked out and back to the D.R... Every country has that right.
From: Haiti
conitinued..because it is certainly getting out of hand. Both countries need to find a solution to the migration. This only phase two of dizque friends of the haitians & dominican people. I am praying that this issue is resolved where the international community allow haiti to reform itself rather than following an agenda that suits thier interest which will effect the DR. This ship "hispaniola" is sinking faster than I thought. Lets not blame each other rather find solution for the obvious illegal immigration to the western side and most important rebuilding haiti.
From: Haiti
Tejada,
Can you tell me how did you and your family arrive here..Please don't tell me you are son of diplomats living in the heights. Rather how much did family had to pay for a "machete"(you're dominican you should know what that mean). Bueno I'll let you finish the story....Is this the twilight zone..the 2nd largest illegal group in the USA and top five in Spain wanting others out of their native country..Oye, lo que es bueno para uno es bueno para todos... Funny you talk about patriotism but had to come to foreign soil to survive and throw your bandera and watch super canal waiting for when you have saved enough money to go back to el barrio and impress la vecina y todo sus panas.. One thing a will say..hope you can comprehend/read in spanish. "La palabra es como el agua corriente, no puede regresar"....Be careful with want you say because it can come back to bite you in your c&%o.. Que Dios te bendiga..
Written by: tejada, 4 Jan 2008 4:38 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian, judging from the words you choose to post your comment in reply to mine I see that you are a close-minded person who likes judging and making assumptions without any basis. I feel pity for you. Everything you describe here seems to reflect the kind of person you are. I am Dominican, and very proud of it. I was also lucky to be "BORN" with the privilege of calling myself American and I'm also proud of it. Living in a barrio in D.R is not anything to be ashamed of. However, ridiculing those who happen to live in one IS something to be ashamed of. Go make good use of the money you are making here and get yourself an education. I'm almost done with my ph.D. and will be going back to the D.R. and put it to good use there.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
I'm confused, what does patriotism have to do with violation of human rights? If being patriotic means ripping families apart, ignoring concepts of justice, then we need to change. For those of us who are so quick to pass judgment, are we not in the same situation? Are not our relatives and friends in foreign lands facing the same persecution and humiliation that we are submitting these human beings that take the worst of all jobs for the lowest of wages? Many of us are so arrogant and blind. What type of society do you want to create, one in which the almighty Peso rules, and where artificial laws divide, kill, and maim; or one where we judge ourselves by how we treat our most vulnerable? We deride our must vulnerable who break their backs everyday, yet praise those who steal from and exploit us. We need to turn away from being oppressors, and work to create a more inclusive society that focuses on public investment and fair distribution of wealth for all. We are all Humans!
Written by: tejada, 4 Jan 2008 4:48 PM
From: United States
Patriotism has EVERYTHING to do with not desiring other nations to invade yours. Let me clarify this a little more... If you rightfully obtain a visa/permit to come into another country foreign to your own, you are more than welcome there. When you illegally go into that country, you are invading. If this is allowed and things start going down that path, what do you think it will eventually happen to that country's identity? So, let me say it again, being patriotic has EVERYTHING to do with caring about your country's identity.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
Tejada, what are you getting your PhD in? The social sciences by any chance? Let me know, a few of us are trying to setup a network of young scholars to deal with social issues in Hispaniola.
cheers,
Written by: tejada, 4 Jan 2008 4:54 PM
From: United States
Baldoria23, my phD is in the area of computer science. I like what you guys are doing. This is a great thing to do in D.R. My congratulations to you and your peers.
From: Haiti
Tejada,As I said to you b4 think b4 your write. Aren't you ashame to criticise people that are merely looking for a better life in the DR a country where 3/4 of its population would leave in a jiffy if they could. Exactly buddy you a sure damn LUCKY to be born in the USA and not where your parents grew up. Risking their life to give you a chance to get that Ph.D. the first one in the family. I am sure they are proud of the american son. That's the same way Jean & Marie feel about their little one in the dominican republic trying to have a better life. But you an american of dominican descent who should no better and have compassion for the people that share the same story as you(poor background looking for a better life). Uncle Sam should send you packing for treason given you everything and talking about patriotism..por favor gringo. Haitians in the DR are looking for a better life..not wanting to overthrow the dominican state.and you're almost done with your PH.D..q' verguenza
From: Haiti
Tejada,
I pray 4 you..Are you serious..For god sake then according to you all dominicans in the USA and everywhere else should be deported too..Im sure you re-consider when bodegas & dominican restauarants are losing clientele because they where deported..I love these american dominican descendants..they have so much pride forget it is Uncle Sam that fed you and made you who you are today. Dominicans patriotism doenst have anything to do with haitians living in the DR. Besides dominicans of haitian descent and those without look at you as the foreignor which you are technically. Haitians & dominicans need to really discuss this issue because it is getting out hand. Rather than spewing diatribe why not throw your patriotism down the throats of the international community..we need peace not hate amongst us..ok americanito..chao bye..
Written by: tejada, 4 Jan 2008 5:10 PM
From: United States
JabaoHatian, I'm done with you after this one... You keep twisting things and do not even know what on earth you are writing about. Maybe I chose the wrong words in my original post when I said "kick them out". You took much offense on this apparently, but you know as well as I do that compassion has nothing to do with this. Are you saying it's okay for a country to have no boundaries? That it is okay for anybody and their mamas to come into your country illegally? Do you even know why you are arguing with me? I take it (judging from your username) that you are of Haitian background? Is this what this is all about?
Written by: cpone, 4 Jan 2008 5:12 PM
From: United States
What is it with you bleeding heart types.
Its as though you want to disregard, laws and a nations sanctity just so that poorer people can live amongst the poor?
As though that benefits others in some way? It doesn't!
How is taking away jobs from poor Dominicans by haitians benefitting DR? WTF? I don't get it.
You want to make change in haiti Jabao, YOU LIVE THERE, Fix it yourself. Don't seek to mooch off another nation to try and stabilize your own, or rather should I say don't come into a stable nation seeking to destabilize it.
I won't even bother going into the obvious economic impacts of Illegal Haitians coming to DR I want to THINK I am talking to people that understand them. I may be mistaken and need to state them. Wouldn't be a surprise.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 5:26 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Oye JabaoHaitian, you sound irate my friend. You sound more Dominican than Haitian. First of all, not all Dominicans with Bodegas, restaurants, barbershops, etc are illegal aliens. Alot do have residencies and have become citizens over time. Secondly, Patriotism has to due with protecting the country because when you come illegal you are invading and impeding on a soverignty of a nation. Yes, I do have sympathize for those Haitians illegaly in DR b/c I understand they are trying to get a better life, that's why people migrant all over the world. It's all about getting a better opportunity. That's why Dominicans leave, that's why there is a little Haiti in Miami, NY, Medford, MA, etc, It's all about getting a better chance.
However, it's illegal and it's not right. The problem here lies in Haiti and they need to correct the problem by providing a more stable nation so that haitians will stay there. You say 3/4 Dominicans want to leave DR, I'm sure that figure is higher in Haiti.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 5:34 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Now, the question is, can Haiti turn the country around on it's own? Yes, in part they can do alot with corruption and ensuring things are down ethically and according to the law. This will help promote stablitiy and transparency so that the Haitian people will benefit from it. All poor countries suffer from a similar syndrome. Haiti is no different. Also, more aid, technical support must be provided to Haiti. They are forgotten by the world and are very abandoned. Venezuela is helping building ports and that has to continue from the US and EU. Now, relations with the DR has to improve to tackle the Hispanola issue. We are brothers and neighbors. Different but similar. DR has to ensure all legal Haitians and Haitian-Dominican are granted fair rights. However, illegal immigration must stop or deportations will continue.
I think these three components must work together to help Haiti grow, prosper, and have relations with DR continue to flourish.
From: Haiti
Tejada,
I dont mean to come aggressive but you need to reconsider what you are saying. As you know there alot of illegal dominicans in the USA and many more in Europe. I have always finish my comments that haitian & the dominican government need to resolve this issue b4 it gets out of hand(already is). A day without haitians in the DR the little economy that think he could would stop. Dominican elites know this and are the ones reaping the benefits of this cheap labor beside majority of dominicans think Puerto Rico or Nueva Yol is where they need to be to live better. Thanks to you (dominican diaspora) coming there with material items and telling them you hold this position. Dominican Rep has the right to govern its side of island the way it wants but respecting the rights of the people that contruct the resorts,highways, the Metro..in the agricultural sector. We need to curtail haitians migrating to DR illegally..and also incentive for them to stay in haiti
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
I need some clarity on this point made above:
"Patriotism has to due with protecting the country because when you come illegal you are invading and impeding on a soverignty of a nation."
How is this the case? And if this is the case, do you feel the same vis a vis multinationals corporations that usurp our resources, expropriate profits, and exploit our people? Furthermore, these tourists who come and take advantage of children or damage our environment?
I propose to you that a say without (documented and undocumented) migrants, not just Haitians, would be catastrophic for the Dominican economy. But again, this is now aobut economic benefits/costs, this is about the type of society we want to create. Do our artificial "patriotic" values surpercede HAMAN RIGHTS and Christian values?
If we turn a blind eye to this abuse of a vulnerable population, we may be patriotic in the eyes of some, but would be also damned to an existence of our own oppression.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 6:06 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
You are talking about to separate issues with multi-national and human illegal migration. Like I said before illegal or undocumented people shouldn't be allowed. If you want to come to any nation in the world it should be done legally. That's all there is to it. Illegal Dominicans, Haitians, etc in the U.S. it's the same concept. Yes there is humanitarian things to consider but there are laws that need to be followed. Treat them with respect always! But, deport them if they are illegal.
From: Haiti
Bladoria,
Wow, gracias por tus comentarios.. will said...I dont even understand how patriotism got in this equation but it is sad to read dominicans especially those american born ones that have a false since of pride. Lesson 1. wanting justice for haitians in the dominican republic doesn't make you less dominican nor unpatriotic. It is obvious that illegal immigration from haiti will have its effect in the DR but more businesses have profited from these group of people that are in a precarious situation. They are people just like everyone of you that have migrated to the USA looking for a better life. The similarity between you and them is so similar that it is sad that many of you see it as an invasion..EVery humble haitian that lives in the DR has a dream to go back with a few pesos to live in their native land..Doesn't that remind you of your parents, uncles waking up early in the morning to go punch in and work whatever job they may hold to send remesas. Think people..
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 6:16 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
What false sense of pride? Illegal people shouldn't be in DR. Period.
From: Haiti
Ny4life,
I agree but do you realize that 90 percent of dominicans that are legal NOW due to the amnesty in the mid 80 or married a puerto rican were once illegal. If that's the case we should go back and take these alien cards from these dizque lawful abiding dominicans and deport them to the DR. After all they did break the law that you vehemently want to enforce...many of you writing here parents were illegal at one point...whether expired visa or yola takers.. indeed something has to be done but with consideration that lives are effected and the deporting tactic is discriminatory..mostly based on the colour of ones skin..I would be scared to be a dark skin dominican caught up on La Duarte during a raid.. Both government needs to find a better way to curtail illegal migration...and DR needs to respect the rights of these people...
Written by: DaniDr, 4 Jan 2008 6:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Some illegals are bound to be in a country, it's even to the interest of the locals. There are jobs that the locals don't want to do, and if they did the final cost to the end customer would rise. Examples of this are agriculture and construction. It's simple, higher salaries = higher prices.
I agree that it shouldn't get out of control, and very important, it shouldn't canibalize job opportunities of the locals. Anyways, to some degree it's only possible to control the issue to an extent. What I dislike is when inmigrants don't want to adhere to the culture and traditions of the country their living in. If they don't adapt, I'm totatlly against it, it's like parasitic hijacking of a country.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 6:30 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
JabaoHaitian,
Why do you keep bring Dominican stuff Bro? Haitians do the same stuff. Taking yolas to Miami, NY, walking over the border like Mexicans to DR. This has to stop. Yes, many Dominicans did go illegal but it's not right man! Many Haitians are illegal in Miami, NYC, MA, and especially DR where they cross the border everyday! I don't support illegal immigration anywhere. It was there decision to leave illegally but it's not right legally. The problem as we all know is in Haiti, where we share the same island but Haiti can't seem to get it's act together, therefore, the DR bears the grunt of the mass illegal immigration. Haitians border hop like Mexicans do in the US. It's not right. I understand you want a better life and that's why many poor people leave but your country has to do better things to prevent illegal immigration. Provide stability, create tourism opportunities, do something, we share the same beautiful island, tourism should work. Stablize the country!
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 8:47 PM
From: United States
Mr. Tejada, please stop writing, since you are making the American education look fairly limited. As one of my heroes said "education is the liberator or ignorance", MLK. You Mr. Tajada do not know that if your dreams come true, at least 400,000 Dominicans will be boarding planes back to our Island that certtaintly can not handle loosing the millions.billions of dollars that those particular 400,000 sned bakc every year. Also, think of this, how many families would be affected when the monthly allowance dries up? You come on here and start offending people, and throwing in their face that you are educated and all. You simply remind me of one those Dominican York, that works in a actory here and goes back to the Island and starts mistreating the natives over there. You defenetly do not sound like an educated person and in the U.S. having a title is not enought, but you also have to sound intelligent and represent that title.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 8:54 PM
From: United States
I have to say to all of you here, please educate yourselves on the subject. This is precisely what I have been saying about Dominicans and their inability to think before talking. Some of you sound very nationalistic, but you see, even yourself can not identify what it is that you are feeling. Because only FANATICS talk to such an unresonable level as some of you are talking here on this particular article. Hey, Jabao, why do you waste your time trying to convince a bunch of fanatics that they are wrong. I have elaborated on dealing with fanatics, they do not see the reality, but what they want to see. As I mentioned before, the Dominicans have the largest population of illegals in the U.S. after the Mexicans. You also know my point about Mexicans, so I do not need to repeat myself. Hey, Tejada are you in NYC, because your comments reflects a lot of the ignorance that is in the atreets of Washington Height.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
You know, the start of this article bothers me a little..."Haitians and Whites protesting outside the Dominican Consulate"....My stance on this issue is that if the Dominican Government was so annoyed and bothered by all these Haitians coming into the country illegally, they would take concrete measures to stop this. The truth of the matter is that, the D.R. benefits with all the illegal Haitians there. who cuts the sugarcanes, builds the resorts, the subway, etc... Im pretty sure there is other people going to the D.R. illegally, but they dont get departed in mass numbers. Dominicans should be happy that they dont have 13 million illegals there.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:02 PM
From: United States
Another point to take into account is the scenario that posted to a group of Dominicans that were making fun of Hatians and talking abouot how the CAMIONA is coming to get them. I toild them, think of this situation and then relfect on it. Let say that the U.S. decides to adopt a migratory rule in which every country men and women residing in the U.S. illegaly would be treated the same way their home country treats illegals. Which, BTW, the U.S. under international laws has the right to simply replicate migratory rules used by the native country of any people that is illegally in the U.S. if this was case then, imagine police trucks driving through Washington Heights where a great number is illegal, and simply pucking up anyone that looks dominican, putting them in a plane and sending them back home without notifying their families or giving them due process. How will you feel if the Americans did this? they answered very upset with the Americans, cont...
From: Haiti
NY4life,
It's not about bringing up dominican stuff homie..it'sabout putting the mirror in front of you in order to see that the plight of haitians in the DR is the same plight dominicans immigrating to other countries mainly USA/PR. I went to puerto rico and it was nothing but dominicans in Mayaguez and doing jobs that Puerto Ricans consider beneath them. Las cosas que pasan en la vida, homie.
Now I concur that haiti has to stablize herself and prevent humble haitians from crossing the border. Now in my world it would be insane for me to cross over the border illegally looking for work in a poor country such as DR where there own citizens are waiting every night at locations to get out themselves. Another point I would like to mention how come dominicans werent vociferando when terrorist used their territory to destablize an elected democratic president in 2004. If you look closely humble haitians are forced to flee where ever they can and the easiest way out is east.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:08 PM
From: United States
and we will go to streets to protest the bad treament their giving my people. I asnwered, well this is what Dominicans are doing to Hatians in DR today. I then asked them, so do you feel the same way you did 10 minutes ago? they all answered no, and felt sorry for hatians and made very strong comments. Mr. Tejada, ny4life, think about this for one minute. I am well established Dominican immigrant in the U.S. and since migrating have adopted U.S. citizenship and intergrated into the American Society in a very sucessful manner. The only reason for my sucess, was becuase the receiving country allowed me to attend their schools and did not judged me before getting to know who I was. Mr. Tejada, ny4life and do not to what social status you belong here in the U.S., but regardless, both of you have benefited from this attitude by Americans. I simply do not like injustice and discrimination due to immigration status, cont..
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:11 PM
From: United States
There are more than 10x the amount of illegal Dominicans students in the U.S. today than Haitians in the DR. I do not talk for talking, but I can prove this to you anytime or we can meet and show you the research, that is if you live in NYC and you are such an scholar as you professed to be, Mr. Tejada. Imagine all those Dominican childrens having to return to a land that did not give them the basic opportunities, but seems not to care.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to: JabaoHaitian
You hit it on the head man...There seems to be a double standard within the Dominican governmnet when it comes to Haiti. They say out in the open "we must help Haiti become stable & they need more economic aid". At the same time, there giving Guy Phillipe, Lois Chamblaine Dominican army Uniform, military bases, M-16 & Ak-47, so they can go in and rape, pillage, and committ treason against there own people. That kind of stuff is simply digusting!! A strong and prosperous Haiti is not in the best interest of the Dominican Government.
From: Haiti
That's why I want both nations to make amends with the past and think about the future. Many of you think all of haiti is in total chaos which is far from the truth. Dominicans need to go to the UN along with haitians demanding the reconstruction of Haiti that they promised and also going to the French Embassy demanding the money they extorted from Haiti in mere of letting her dizque claim its independence. Now how does this help the dominican republic. I will let you ponder on that..
Dagtag, I agree waste of my time..but it is a sad case to see the pot calling the kettle black...is there a mirror in their establishment?
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:19 PM
From: United States
Well, yes, white Americans are not comfortable with the conditions of Hatians in the Dominican Republic. Do you guys realize, that Haitians are consider subhuman in DR? This is what these poeple are protesting. Haitians will find support every where as long as DR continues to see them and treat them as if they were subhuman. If the DR gives due process to the deportation process and develop viable immigration measures, then the DR would be supported by the American people. We in the U.S. are about to experience something great and something that will change this country and the world for ever. We are about to nominate a black man for the democratic party. If BARACK OBAMA becomes president, then the most powerful person on earth has an understading of the plight of poor people and specially blakc people around the Globe. Therefore, the denouncement to such attorcities committed in the DR against Haitians would be denounce further, because the white guilt in the has disappeared
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:28 PM
From: United States
I urge the Dominicans on this particular discussion, to please look at the Dominincan situation in the tri-state area schools, job level and economy status. We are struggling mightily right now. We have the largest number of High School drop out and the higher number of drugs convictions in this area. We the professional Dominicans struggle to make our people look good in front of our American collegues. Many times as a professional Dominican I find myself having to defend my people and having to deal with the surprises in their faces that I am actually Dominican and how I was able to achieve such a high status in their social stratus. Instead of beating on the Haitian issue and simply calling for their heads we should all start denouncing the injusitices and hoepfully the internal community would take a more active role and help the two sides develop strategies to deal with this issue. I feel very uncfortable to read what some of you write here, not knowing that we are, cont..
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 9:30 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Dagtan,
Where did you see that Dominicans have the largest number of Illegals after Mexicans? Considering the fact that there are an estimated 1.5 million Dominicans in the U.S and I'm assuming ten hold of Mexicans you have to take into account the size of the population which is huge and not a fair comparison to such a small population of Dominicans. What I'm trying to say is that if there are 10 Million Mexicans and ten percent of the population is illegal then 1 million illegal Mexicans is way more than the total population of Dominicans which is 1.5 million. Pick a better group for comparison.
Also agents do go around the neighborhood and pick up immigrates in this country, especially if a deportation notice has been issued. Yes, if they applied the same tactics in the Heights than many would go but plenty would stay as they are born here or papers by now. I agree the process used in the DR might not be the best, however, DR has the right deport illegals.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:31 PM
From: United States
suffering a lot here in the U.S. and are not taking advantage of the many opportunities that are given to us. I must say that we Dominicans have the highest number of students at the collegelevel, but our graduation rate is less than that of PurtoRicans which often return to PR for college and few remain here. Dominicans here in NYC do the jobs that no one wants to take and those that Dominicans manage not to take and snatched up by Mexicans. In the last five years the Mexican population has grown and it is posting a great threat to the Dominican establishment, just like the Dominicans did to the Puerto Ricans in the 70's and 80's.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:38 PM
From: United States
The last time a sensus was conducted to get an idea of the hispanic population was sometimes in the late 90's, I have to look for those documents. But in the 90's there were about 400,000 illegal Dominicans in the U.S., with the majority concentrated in the tri-state area. Yes, after the Mexican today, the Dominicans would come in with about 500,000 to play it safe. That is the largest group from latin america after mexicans. However, you are right on the number of Mexicans, but remember that Mexicans do not see themselves as illegals, but by U.S. law they are. ny4life, you are also right that the DR has the right to deport just like any other country and I support deportation, but it must be done humanly and with due process. Mexicans are picked up, but they are taken to a detention center and the authorities first feed, bathe and cloth them before contacting their families and telling when they are arriving. ny4life, those things are called natural rights and in DR those,
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:40 PM
From: United States
natural rights are being violated at free will on the Haitian people. Our Dominicans are given due process in the U.S. upond deportation and their families are notified and everything. We do that becuase enventhough, they are illegals and are breaking the rules, they still human and deserve those natural rights that were given by GOD and not us men.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:43 PM
From: United States
Thre is no other viable group group to compare Dominicans, because if I do that, then the numbes will look worse. The amount of Dominican illegals is greatest than many entire immgrant population of many Latin American countries. That is the reason ny4life, if you research, it will almost always be compared to that of Mexicans, because of the sheer number of Dominicans.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 9:44 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Dagtan, I'm really curious to see where you get your stats from. The Dominican community continues to make strides to get better in NYC and all over. WE have people doing bad stuff, yes, everyone does!! As we are a fairly new immigrate group mostly first and second generation are establishing ourselves now. It will get better with time and now I'm definitely seeing dividens with Dominicans who are becoming Professionals.
Yes, the DR has a problem with prejudices which has been impeded by the Trujillo regime and was brain washed with our grandparents and especially parents. The older people in the gov't are our parents age and some continue to think like that. However, I believe that is changing with our generation and everyone after us. It takes time to get over such trauma from a dictator. At the same time, it's changing and will change. That ignorance is leaving for those who are educated and learn about it.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 9:55 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Dagtan & Jabao,
Every time you are an immigrate in any country you are considered a second class citizen or lesser than the natives. How everyone you want to phrase it, you are considered lesser than the natives. You have to learn a new culture, adapt to the lifestyle, and prove yourself worthy. All immigrates on Hispanola and across the world know this. In particular, for us, since we are colored and not white like the quote on quote "native" white Americans. That's just the truth! Haitians are no exception in DR or the US or France, or wherever they migrate too they are considered lesser than the natives b/c you are not from there and have to prove yourself. Just like Dominicans in PR/USA/EU, it's the same story boss. It's not right but that's how the world works. When you are not from a native land you are second guessd and are subject to some type of prejudices. That's the way of majority of man. It's not right but it's the way it has been.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 9:58 PM
From: United States
ny4life, you are talking and do not want to be offensive and if I sound like my apologies. ny4life, if I follow your name tag, it is safe to assume that you either live in NY or used to live there. Look at the report cards that are posted on the State ed web site and see the performance as it is divided by groups. Also, if you have anyone in the Washington Heights area that have access to school data, tell them to get the data from George Washington High School which is the in the heart of Washington Heighs. This will be a small sampling, but it would give you an idea. I do not know if the Dominincan Institute have such data, but the state ed does have and it is easily available if you are conducting research. Yes, we are finally catching up to some of the long stadning caribbean groups in the U.S. when it comes to people of Dominican decent becoming professionals and moving up in the American society. I see myself as a pioneer and always try to advertise my heritage, cont....
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 10:05 PM
From: United States
as much as possible so people know that not all Dominicans are what they see in the news. However, we could have been doing better since we have a majority in the many neighborhoods and continue t fail to elect our own to people to office. Also, Dominicans are suffering from a phenomenon that a lot of scholars are working on fidning ways to deal with. This has to do with the generation factor, first genration Dominicans do far better than second, third and so on. I have few ideas as to why this happens, but this not the place to get into this. Also, ny4life, I am going to give a small peice of info on the haitian issue that should get every Dominican on this thinking. Based on quantitative data on some school districts, specially in suburban New York, Haitians often come better prepared than Dominicans in terms of academics. This is not a general statement people, but only limited to some communities in suburban New York. I mentioned before about the Haverstraw community, cont.
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 10:06 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
To my Haitian Brothers,
Why wouldn't the DR want a strong and stable Haiti??? That needs to happen! It seems like you are blaming the DR for Haiti's downfall. I honestly don't know why Haiti falling so hard only from the outside it's seems due to corruption leading to instability, lack of confidence from investors, and severe neglect from all over the world. It's time to help Haiti but political will on both sides needs to correct the situation. Haiti needs to have the political fortitude to get it's act together. I think the real issue is that France and USA can't accept that a Black Slave Republic ousts the mighty white European conquers to become an independent nation. Those world partners have to realize that they must help to provide stablility to a part of the island they heavily exploided.
Written by: dagtan, 4 Jan 2008 10:10 PM
From: United States
in upper New York. Inthis particular community in which a large group of Dominincans live, they are being out done academically by Haitian migrants. We Dominicans should really find out if events like this are being replicated in other communities around the U.S. What is going on in our country, why would the inferior (as many believe over there) people come to U.S. with better education? Are we Dominicans to busy thinking about migrating and not investing a penny in our children education or is the government simply banking on the thousands that would leave every year, so budget increase is not needed? I had the pleasure of meeting Mrs. Bosch our secretary of education and asked her some of these questions. The answers did not have any subtance as expected from any politician on hard questions.
From: Haiti
Dagtan,You are one well rounded individual and I think God that there dominicans such as yourself seeing things for what they arerather than spill rhetoric. Your expert on the migration in the tri-state area seems to be on point..Going to the City pizza parlors, stores we can see these dominicans making a living and other places where now mexicans have literally taken over these sectors and unfornately more dominican immigrants are falling to the fast life but people like yourself are good example of decent dominicans that came here to melt in the pot rather then build a dominican republic in the heights, new jersey, boston, philly. There is no better time for haitians & dominicans to come together to fight for injustice and better quality of life on the island and abroad. I know what you mean about the perception of dominicans I a haitian have defended them because sometime it is too much to hear the stereotypes for hispanics and americans. There is hope..God bless..
Written by: ny4life, 4 Jan 2008 10:25 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Interesting. It would nice to find out why this is happening. I can't really defend something I don't know about. It would be nice to meet up and talk about this. I love to talk about my Dominican background and finding new solutions for issues the community faces. I would to see those documents you are talking about Haitian students and Dominicans to make a determination for myself of what is going on b/c honeslty I don't know who is performing better in schools.
Hit me up same name @hotmail.com, we should be meet up for coffee or something.
Eh Pa'lante que vamos!
Written by: DannyVC, 4 Jan 2008 10:43 PM
From: United States, New Jersey
Apparently wanting to protect your own borders is racist now? The DR has every right to deport every single last illegal hatian on Dominican territory. I just hope the leaders of the country are strong enough to not bow to international pressure from those who think the solution to the haiti problem is our country.
From: Haiti
NY4life,
I am not blaming dominicans for the plight haiti faces today. As you stated the superpowers of the world either never wants this beautiful nation to arise and remind the world of her great history and to serve as a lesson for latin america to view on display if they ever have the courage to liberate themselves and demand respect on the same level. Haiti isn't just the first black republic in the americas but a symbol of liberty to all and also tribute to the indigenous of the island that were virtually extinct.Every time haiti has a coup or fall worse economic issues dominican & haitian business elites make a killing..it is the common dominican and the common haitian that pays and forced to find bread to break afar. I respect the sovereignty of my neighbours and have to abide by there laws. When I resided there I was treated better than the typical dominicans because of the colour of my skin and spoke spanish very well. I paid no dues rather partied on la Lincoln
Written by: Jefe809, 5 Jan 2008 12:12 AM
From: Canada, Toronto
Olle esa cosa ta mal nosotros no tenemos dderechos a quitartle la vida a los haitianos dejen que se buque la vida alla y dejelon tranquilo ellos acen trabajos que muchos dominicanos no quieren ni acer.
Written by: Euromax, 5 Jan 2008 2:19 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Region Cibao
KEEEEp themm outt......... if you Haitians come back to our Dominican LAND i swaer ill go there and kick them alll out!!...... thats and excuse, " keep them in D.R , because we lazy Dominicans dont do the job!", who the hell told you that??! instead of supporting the unemploy Dominicans you support this unprogressive Monkyes!!
how there you!!!
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 5 Jan 2008 4:21 AM
From: United States
Euromax, I am ecstatic to learn that you are a progressive MONKEY. I am fully in support of your idea of going back to the sugar plantation and taking your job back.
From: Dominican Republic
I live in the north Coast of DR, and there is no sign of hatian deportation over here.
I have many hatian friends here in DR, and they have traveled back and forth for the holidays to haiti, , in Caribetour without any problems. I think this is all hyped up, for what reason i do not know.
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 11:52 AM
From: United States
Oh my God, Euromax should be banned for making such incendiary and ignorant commets on this forum, administrator where are you? ny4life, I'll love to do that, but I do not want to simply educate you on te subject. I rather you do some reserach and see it for yourself, and then we could have an objective conversation and I'll offer you some of my ideas on how to deal with the situation. Another good source, depending who is running it now, is the Aliansa Dominicana, at the time that I completed my thesis for St. Johns, they were very helpful. Also, the Dominican Institute and the best soruce of all is teachers Mr. ny4life. If you have any teachers in your family of friends they will not hesitate to tell the truth unless they think that you are an unreasonable dominican fanatic as many dominicans are. I have been outcast by some of my family members for showing them at how poorly we are doing in comparison to let say Puerto Ricans in NYC. Yes, I know PR people have been, cont...
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 11:58 AM
From: United States
here much longer than we have. I also, know that if it was not for PR people opening the door to caribbean migration it would have been much tougher for us to make it here. Moreover, if was not for PR people founding ASPIRA, which created bi-ligual education in NY and then expanded to rest of the country, life for Dominicans would have been much tougher. At time we fail to recognize or give it to the PR people for paying the price in order to pave the way for us. Please, ask in you area's schools about the performance of hispanics, which for the most part are Dominicans. It really breaks my heart to see how some of talk on this forum and not realizing the after shock of such comments. We should stay objective and not make this a subjective place, we are all here to share our objective opinion. I have never been to Haiti and only been to DR 2x in the last 19 years, but I have never stop learning and reading about my country. Luckly, I have people over there, cont..
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 12:03 PM
From: United States
that continually send to me all the latest literature and Documentaries. We have some good historians in DR why not talk about them more often and see what they are doing. Did any Dominican on here had the chance to go to the movie theater and watch "VIAJEROS"? if not please do so. You can get it in DR, it is no longer been shown in the U.S. Also, Venezuela just comissioned Danny Glober (American Actor) to complete a film depicting the life of TOUSSAINT LOVERTURE, I think I got the nae mispelled, I am very sorry for that. But look out or this great film. I might just take a plane to Venezuela to catch it over there first. I hope that Dominican Republic show it at their movies theater. I hear that the venezuelan government got inot hot water with DR for comissioning such film and not one on our beloved Juan Pable Duarte, but that is just gissip that i got from some of my family over there that involved in the media.
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 12:06 PM
From: United States
Hey, time2rize, I believe you. My wife is from montecristi and they actually protect Haitians around there, becuase they are good people according to my wife. They work their lands and often do not get in trouble. I fr fact know that my wife grand father housed many Haitians during the Trujillo massacre and still house a lot of haitians when things get hot in the area. There still a lot of good people in my country that are not only good to white Americans (or may I say like we say over there, tunba polvo).
Written by: ny4life, 5 Jan 2008 12:08 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
I understand you are looking at the numbers of Dominicans in Washington Heights and seeing how they are doing in school. As we all know now, the Bronx has more Dominicans than Manhattan. Dominicans are spread out through out the city and it's not only in the Heights. What I don't like is that people on this forum have been stereotyping all Dominicans to be the same. I'm not referring to you in particular . We have Dominicans who study in Columbia, NYU, Harvard, etc and are being very well educated Professionals. Is everyone going to go to college? No, college is not for everyone. Some people enjoy doing trade school and other's simply can't finish or go b/c of financial reasons.
I think the picture you paint is bleaker than what it is. Yes, I have to do my research on that. This generation in my eyes with the experiences I've had at the college level with my Dominican colleagues, is on point and making a difference from Boston to NY. All over tthe country DOminicans ae progressin
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 12:57 PM
From: United States
ny4life, if we Dominicans do not create that sense of urgency, then we would not be able to awaken those Dominicans that are not seeing the light. I for one did have the privelage to see plenty of Dominicans to the Universities that I attended to and to see some as well in my professional field. Nonetheless, ny4life, you are constantly looking at the glass half full and believe me that is a good thing, but not in every condition. We are already the largest group of hispanics in NYC, and yes there has been a boom of Dominincans in the kingsbridge, unversity and souther part of the Bronx. Now, lets look at district 10 and 11 on the Bronx. These two district are very interesting since they occupy the affluent communities in the Bronx, like Riverdale, pelham, country club, wake field, woodlawn and others. If you look at the numbers in these particular schools for example MS 141 in Riverdale, look at the data on hispanic, which btw, the majority are Dominicans. Also, look, cont..
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 1:02 PM
From: United States
at PS 95 in Kingsbridge, which used to be a top school in District 11. With the influx of high numbers of Dominicans to the community the school has become under state review and it was signaled as one school that they want to close due to performance. Now we can not blame this on Dominicans alone, but they make up the majority of failing grades in the school. Parental participation is 30% in this particular school among hispanics. ny4life, my dream is to one day move my family to amiddle class hispanic community, but I have not found one. Trust me I wordked very hard in creating a sucesful Dominican family as my wife and I are both professionals, I simply wanted to prove to White Americans we can be as sucessful as they are in their own country. But if I become concentrated on the sucess of our people and ignore the problems as you are, then things would only get worse. We need to face them head on, many Dominicans after they amke it tend to forget, cont..
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 1:06 PM
From: United States
about their past and go on to marry american women and raise their kids as americans and do not even teach them spanish. Do you those types of Dominicans, as we have many or the ones like me that continues to denounce our problems and try to wake people up to take action. The Dominican population in those two districts has become under exptreme pressure to ge involved and start getting their kids to better in schools. The private schools roles has grown tremedously, with the white fly from prublic schools in district 10 and 11. Things has gotten so bad, that the Riverdale community forced the city to build another school down by Kennedy High, to stop the kingsbrige kids from coming up to their school up in independence ave. In part they were sucessful, but there still a lot of hispanics attending their school.
Written by: ny4life, 5 Jan 2008 1:07 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
In terms of the Hispanic population in the US, it holds higher college level enrollments and degrees than any other Hispanic group in the US. Yes, greater than the mighty Mexican and strong Puerto Rican population in the US. I did see that Dominicans are the third largest U.S. latino group after Mexican and Puerto Rican. Those two ethnic groups have a long history in the U.S. which included many generations and they are being out done right now by the young Dominicans generation in the U.S. in terms of college degrees.
Oyeme, hermano la cosa esta cambiando. Progess is being made, there is always more room for improvement but things are definitely changing from our parents generation to our generation. The Dominican community is a progressive community in the US and it will continue to happen as long as we keep supporting each other. Sky's the limit my friend.
From: Haiti
Dagtan, We must not curtail the opinions such as Euromax albeit racist & has no significance. I'm a firm believer of freedom of speech besides it a testimony of the racism/discrimination haitian face in the RD. As another poster mentioned there are many haitians legally living in the DR and illegal ones that are not harassed. If the illegal ones are deported according to the dominican law I can't oppose that but what concerns me is the inhumane way it is done and dark skin dominicans many with no haitian ancestry thrown across the border. Now the haitian community also have to put pressure on the haitian government as well as the dominican government because if haiti does not have stability and DR's economy keeps getting better more illegals will cross the border. In search of a work and better life.
Written by: ny4life, 5 Jan 2008 1:14 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 1:16 PM
From: United States
ny4life, Mexicans while they do not have high numbers in college, acutally hold the stronger politcal force in the U.S. government, followed by Cubans and then PR. Yes, we go to college, but only a small percentage as I stated before mage to graduate. I agree with enrollments, on graduation rate plese look again. ny4life, I like to see some of my compatriots to be so hopeful and eager to make sure that people know about the good things that we as a group are doing here in the U.S., but at the same time, I do not want you to be shocked by another person when that show you the hard data. Please do some reserach and you'll see what I am saying. We are doing ok, but not fine or good and that goes for both secondary and post secondary. Our second and third generation is not doing as well as our first generation. Conduct a small poll among your college collegues and give me the result. I am sure most them are first generation dominicans. Maybe you are one also.
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 1:23 PM
From: United States
ny4life, I love Ramona, she is great. I helped her with some of her teaching courses and gave her some advise in the process. I worked with for about 9 months while I was completing my thesis for ST. Johns. She will be a great source, and yes I believe that those numbers are accurate with the limitation that she constantly faces in getting the correct data from the community. The community often do not cooperate with her research and it is difficult for her to get the best data out there as it is for everyone else. Nonetheless, they are pretty good. I am glad you are reading some fo her materials, now I knwo that you and I will get alone, since Ramona and I are on the same page on the urgency of our people in the U.S. the only difference is that Ramona is like you, she is a very hoepful person and often talk about things getting better and that for us being us, we are actually doing well. If you ever, meet her, ask her what is her opinion on the heights, then post the answer,
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 1:25 PM
From: United States
I am on the otherside of the spectrum, which often see the glas half empty and constantly work to make things better for our people. You should ask her what her position is on th Haitian issue in DR, since she is an ultra liberal just like me, our answer would be similar. Good, for you ny4life, that is a good source of info and the center is an incredible palce to go and learn about us.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
Euromax, your words sadden me. We have a long way to go to become an inclusive people who turn our backs on injustice and oppression. What type of society are we destine to have? The conservative factions call this "bleeding heart" position, but I see our destiny to create a more perfect union in which all the inalienable rights of people are insured; in which all people work together to build political institutions that will allow the public access to the decisionmaking process, to ensure transparency, representation, and fair distribution of resources. How our political institutions function, is link to how we treat the most vulnerable in our society. If we support the oppression & exclusion of vulnerable populations (women, gays, immigrants, poor...), then don't be surprise that our institutions will continue to be corrupt, that they won't deliver serivce, and that crime, inequality and poverty will continue to increase. But we can change ourselves & our institutions.
Written by: ny4life, 5 Jan 2008 1:50 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Dagtan,
I'm sure we will get along. I am first-generation, Dominican-American, the second generation in my family is still young (early middle school and elementary school age) and I'm assuming that is the case for most of Dominicans. Second-generation and third-generation Dominican-American is a young population still. Given the success of the first-generation Dominican-American as we have noted, it's only logical to say that second and possibly third will continue the trend.
Yes, I agree with you that our community needs to improve in some areas which is need improvement. Every community has this problem and it's not just us. I still believe were are doing well and will continue to do so as long as we keep each other work through issues as you have pointed out. Politically Mexicans, Cubans, and PR have done better. I would hope Mexicans would have a voice since they are the largest hispance group in America. cont...
Written by: ny4life, 5 Jan 2008 2:00 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
and Hispanics in the U.S are the largest minority and have a major economic force in the country.
Cubans have influence b/c Cuba is a Social-dictatorship or really a dictatorship and the U.S. is committed to support all Cubans in their fight to make Cuba a democracy. Also, Cubans have integrated themselves well in the U.S. and share the same beliefs as the U.S. Gov't. Puerto Ricans are technically American citizens and are successful in the U.S. which helps them obtain political power. Dominicans are still a young population that is growing and becoming more educated and involved in the U.S. The Dominicans that came or come to the U.S., the majority of them could care less about being involved in the U.S. politics and only look to return back to DR. However, they have kids here and those, like myself, first generation are the those making the strides to get involved poltically. cont.
Written by: ny4life, 5 Jan 2008 2:04 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
We are gaining political will in this country as we are getting more involved in day to day life in the U.S. We have a senator in Providence, a number of local officials in the NYC, the first Dominican mayor in Lawrence (term is over), local officials in FL. It's not on the same level as other groups as you mentioned but I think we know why. Also, it's bound to change as Dominicans bcome more concerned with events in the U.S. and not DR.
Written by: dagtan, 5 Jan 2008 3:19 PM
From: United States
Thanks ny4life, we had a great exchange of knowledge and objective arguments. Lets keep motivaitng our youngs to adapt the American way of life and assimilate as much as possible withouot loosing their heritage. I hope that your kids speak Spanish, because that is the only way they'll ever know who your ancestors are and where they come from. My wife and I are actually teaching our daughter Spanish first, knwoing that once she get to school, the English language is going to take over and need some leverage now to fight the battle and make sure that is fully bi-lingual. Make sure that you motivate your kids to stay positive on bilingualism and that it is important for them to be more competitive in an incresingly global society that we live in.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to ny4life:
In a previous post you mentioned why the Dominican government would not want a strong and stable Haiti?....Allow me to answer this for you....A strong and stable Haiti would simply off-set the balance of power on Hispaniola, which currently benefits the Dominican Republic. To add to this, the United States, as well as France and other European nations would lose greatly because foreign companies like Disney, Wal-mart, Coca-Cola, would have to pay Haitians an exhuberant some of money that amounts to more than 30 Cents per-hour. This is what they risk if Haiti becomes stable, the economy increase, cost of living goes down. A change like that would be devasteting for the worlds super-powers. Now dont get me wrong, I still wish relations between Haiti/D.R. get better but nothing has seriously changed since 1804.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
This is something off the topic, but I figured I would give it a try. In a few weeks I need to go to La Vega for a 2 months (1/27- 3/30), and b/c of the Carnival, I'm having a hard time finding a place to stay. Does anyone know of a real estate office that rents studios or smallapartments, or a reasonably price hotel?
send me an email (gonze459@newschool.edu).
Sorry for clogging up the space with this mundane here...
cheers,
From: United States
great postings, Dagtan and others. one of the reasons why the Cubans have done very well in the USA has to be examined in terms of their migration demographics. most Dominicans who seek to go to the usa are people of humble origins, poor education and limited financial means. the more socially and economically fortunate in any society never usually choose to migrate voluntarily; some guy living lovely on the beach in Rio San Juan, with servants and gardeners, is not going to New York to shovel snow. the Cubans who fled to miami in the 60s were the wealthy, educated types who managed to flee with lots of money, some of which they had stashed offshore for years. they therefore had the kind of headstart that Dominicans do not have. they set up businesses, made substantial contacts within the Republican party in the usa, and virtually control not only Miami-Dade, but have a stranglehold on the American election system.
From: United States
it is sad, but laughable, to read Euromax; and to think that this is someone who asserts that he could fix this country in 4 years, if given a chance. i asked him to give me an idea of what changes he would make, but he declined to reply. i am always a little suspiciuos of people who make these claims they cannot back up, even in theory
Written by: acfranci, 13 Jan 2008 7:56 PM
From: United States
First of all I believe that illegal immigration by any citizen of a foreign country should be subject to deportation. Second of all those individuals protesting should be in front of the Dominican consul should be in the Haitian counsul protesting for changes in their native country. The Dominican Republic won their land through war and fighting similar to the U.S and they can deport those who are illegal as they please. Haiti as a goverment needs to improve the conditions in their goverment system so their citizens won't have to subject themselves mistreatment in the Dominican Republic. Those Dominicans living in the U.S illegally as a Dominican myself I can sympthatize.as with anybody from any nation as a matter of fact ,but if you have no papers you have to go. I am sorry the goverment has not provided resources but not everyone can stay that is impossible. Again the same way the Dominicans do not want the Haitians the U.S goverment does not want both nations illegally
Written by: JOHNUSA , 14 Jan 2008 3:26 AM
From: United States
@acfranci: I agree with you that any country has the right to deport illegal immigrants. But, it must be done with respect and without prejudice. The USA deports illegal immigrants everyday but they are fed, clothed, and their families notified before deportation. I don't think I can say the same thing for DR.
Written by: acfranci, 15 Jan 2008 2:30 PM
From: United States
Thats most likely true about DR's Deportation tactics but again you take those risks to go to a country which does not welcome you. You are subject to face the consequences.
Written by: JOHNUSA , 15 Jan 2008 2:49 PM
From: United States
But, in a civilized society such consequences should not be an issue.
From: United States
precisely, Johnusa! if you go to countries which do not purport to be democracies, and which function in isolationist conditions, such as north korea, you do so at your own risk. but when a country purports to be modernising itself, and seeks to be a part of the international family of nations, the least that can be expected of them is to operate within a framework of civilised conduct. summary deportation is medieval behavior. any sensible person recognises the right of all nations to deport illegal immigrants. but people should also have legal recourses, such as a right to a deportation hearing. rounding people up in the middle of the night and tossing them over the border is philistine conduct. robbing them of their meagre possessions before expelling them is something reminiscent of a middle ages society. there has to be some middle ground in this discourse, and folks have to stop taking extremely horizontal an one- dimensional viewpoints.
Written by: JOHNUSA , 16 Jan 2008 12:01 PM
From: United States
@dreadlocks: Very good analysis.
Written by: Lautaro, 16 Jan 2008 3:19 PM
From: Brazil
What could be expected from a system which had its armed forces trained using the guidelines of the infamous "School of the Americas" from the US Department of State, in which every soldier/officer was taught that the common citizen or hungry inmigrant is nothing more than a potential enemy of the system? That the inmigrants and citizens caught in any nightly round-up on the barrio are nothing better than prisoners of war, that could be disposed of as they pleased. And that, the only citizen that counts, is the obscenely rich oligarch, prelate or politico that gives them their monthly paycheck, and drops a "borona" or bribe from time to time.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
Dear Friends and Colleagues, here's something off topic - I'd be terribly interested in meeting some of you and potentially setting up a regular "salon" - not the beauty kind - to chat about DR matters. OBviously we're all interested, and I think we can all benefit from face to face interaction.
TO that end, maybe we can aim to have two running "salons"- one in Santo Domingo and one in NY.
We just need volunteers to help set up - essentially chose a location, and send out emails to whomever expresses interest.
How does that sound?
if you're interested email me @ baldoria23@gmail.com.
Also - I'm currently in NY and will be leaving back to the DR Next week, anyone up for getting together Monday @ 6:00pm in Manhattan?
I expect some emails ;)
From: United States
yes, Mr Lautaro, the same handbook the usa used to train all the latin american governments in controlling dissident masses. the usa shares a large part of the blame for the inequality of opportunity and outcomes in all of latin america
Written by: Lautaro, 18 Jan 2008 9:32 PM
From: Brazil
I wonder why the US is repeating the same british empire formula of allowing liberties at home (and this only to a certain extent and selected few) while using a club in its dealings with the international community?
Written by: acfranci, 19 Jan 2008 12:47 AM
From: United States
bladoria you are from Caberea the little town in a cibao O de la loma I'm just wondering my fam is from there its off subject I know.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
Cabreara, Maria Trinidad Sanchez - Between Rio an Juan and Nagua. Who are your family?
My Dad - Dujaro- owns a colmado and Mom - Mirta - owns a beauty salon on la 16 de agosto.
Email me with your contact info. would be great to be in touch wiht one of my town mates.
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Am never going to hear the end of this coming from my colleagues...
I can hear the Platano bashing chants already...
Deport them DR. Deport them all with no legal immigration into the country.
Because Haiti has destroyed its economy, has destroyed its economy doesn't give it carte blanche to come into DR as they please.
I think we should be very careful with our actions. And for those dominicans in the diaspora seeking a better life saying "deport the haitians", I say pack up your bags back to the DR then someone might take your diatribes into consideration.
Instead of seeing each other as enemies we should sit down and discuss this delicate issue
Can you tell me how did you and your family arrive here..Please don't tell me you are son of diplomats living in the heights. Rather how much did family had to pay for a "machete"(you're dominican you should know what that mean). Bueno I'll let you finish the story....Is this the twilight zone..the 2nd largest illegal group in the USA and top five in Spain wanting others out of their native country..Oye, lo que es bueno para uno es bueno para todos... Funny you talk about patriotism but had to come to foreign soil to survive and throw your bandera and watch super canal waiting for when you have saved enough money to go back to el barrio and impress la vecina y todo sus panas.. One thing a will say..hope you can comprehend/read in spanish. "La palabra es como el agua corriente, no puede regresar"....Be careful with want you say because it can come back to bite you in your c&%o.. Que Dios te bendiga..
cheers,
I pray 4 you..Are you serious..For god sake then according to you all dominicans in the USA and everywhere else should be deported too..Im sure you re-consider when bodegas & dominican restauarants are losing clientele because they where deported..I love these american dominican descendants..they have so much pride forget it is Uncle Sam that fed you and made you who you are today. Dominicans patriotism doenst have anything to do with haitians living in the DR. Besides dominicans of haitian descent and those without look at you as the foreignor which you are technically. Haitians & dominicans need to really discuss this issue because it is getting out hand. Rather than spewing diatribe why not throw your patriotism down the throats of the international community..we need peace not hate amongst us..ok americanito..chao bye..
Its as though you want to disregard, laws and a nations sanctity just so that poorer people can live amongst the poor?
As though that benefits others in some way? It doesn't!
How is taking away jobs from poor Dominicans by haitians benefitting DR? WTF? I don't get it.
You want to make change in haiti Jabao, YOU LIVE THERE, Fix it yourself. Don't seek to mooch off another nation to try and stabilize your own, or rather should I say don't come into a stable nation seeking to destabilize it.
I won't even bother going into the obvious economic impacts of Illegal Haitians coming to DR I want to THINK I am talking to people that understand them. I may be mistaken and need to state them. Wouldn't be a surprise.
However, it's illegal and it's not right. The problem here lies in Haiti and they need to correct the problem by providing a more stable nation so that haitians will stay there. You say 3/4 Dominicans want to leave DR, I'm sure that figure is higher in Haiti.
I think these three components must work together to help Haiti grow, prosper, and have relations with DR continue to flourish.
I dont mean to come aggressive but you need to reconsider what you are saying. As you know there alot of illegal dominicans in the USA and many more in Europe. I have always finish my comments that haitian & the dominican government need to resolve this issue b4 it gets out of hand(already is). A day without haitians in the DR the little economy that think he could would stop. Dominican elites know this and are the ones reaping the benefits of this cheap labor beside majority of dominicans think Puerto Rico or Nueva Yol is where they need to be to live better. Thanks to you (dominican diaspora) coming there with material items and telling them you hold this position. Dominican Rep has the right to govern its side of island the way it wants but respecting the rights of the people that contruct the resorts,highways, the Metro..in the agricultural sector. We need to curtail haitians migrating to DR illegally..and also incentive for them to stay in haiti
"Patriotism has to due with protecting the country because when you come illegal you are invading and impeding on a soverignty of a nation."
How is this the case? And if this is the case, do you feel the same vis a vis multinationals corporations that usurp our resources, expropriate profits, and exploit our people? Furthermore, these tourists who come and take advantage of children or damage our environment?
I propose to you that a say without (documented and undocumented) migrants, not just Haitians, would be catastrophic for the Dominican economy. But again, this is now aobut economic benefits/costs, this is about the type of society we want to create. Do our artificial "patriotic" values surpercede HAMAN RIGHTS and Christian values?
If we turn a blind eye to this abuse of a vulnerable population, we may be patriotic in the eyes of some, but would be also damned to an existence of our own oppression.
Wow, gracias por tus comentarios.. will said...I dont even understand how patriotism got in this equation but it is sad to read dominicans especially those american born ones that have a false since of pride. Lesson 1. wanting justice for haitians in the dominican republic doesn't make you less dominican nor unpatriotic. It is obvious that illegal immigration from haiti will have its effect in the DR but more businesses have profited from these group of people that are in a precarious situation. They are people just like everyone of you that have migrated to the USA looking for a better life. The similarity between you and them is so similar that it is sad that many of you see it as an invasion..EVery humble haitian that lives in the DR has a dream to go back with a few pesos to live in their native land..Doesn't that remind you of your parents, uncles waking up early in the morning to go punch in and work whatever job they may hold to send remesas. Think people..
I agree but do you realize that 90 percent of dominicans that are legal NOW due to the amnesty in the mid 80 or married a puerto rican were once illegal. If that's the case we should go back and take these alien cards from these dizque lawful abiding dominicans and deport them to the DR. After all they did break the law that you vehemently want to enforce...many of you writing here parents were illegal at one point...whether expired visa or yola takers.. indeed something has to be done but with consideration that lives are effected and the deporting tactic is discriminatory..mostly based on the colour of ones skin..I would be scared to be a dark skin dominican caught up on La Duarte during a raid.. Both government needs to find a better way to curtail illegal migration...and DR needs to respect the rights of these people...
I agree that it shouldn't get out of control, and very important, it shouldn't canibalize job opportunities of the locals. Anyways, to some degree it's only possible to control the issue to an extent. What I dislike is when inmigrants don't want to adhere to the culture and traditions of the country their living in. If they don't adapt, I'm totatlly against it, it's like parasitic hijacking of a country.
Why do you keep bring Dominican stuff Bro? Haitians do the same stuff. Taking yolas to Miami, NY, walking over the border like Mexicans to DR. This has to stop. Yes, many Dominicans did go illegal but it's not right man! Many Haitians are illegal in Miami, NYC, MA, and especially DR where they cross the border everyday! I don't support illegal immigration anywhere. It was there decision to leave illegally but it's not right legally. The problem as we all know is in Haiti, where we share the same island but Haiti can't seem to get it's act together, therefore, the DR bears the grunt of the mass illegal immigration. Haitians border hop like Mexicans do in the US. It's not right. I understand you want a better life and that's why many poor people leave but your country has to do better things to prevent illegal immigration. Provide stability, create tourism opportunities, do something, we share the same beautiful island, tourism should work. Stablize the country!
It's not about bringing up dominican stuff homie..it'sabout putting the mirror in front of you in order to see that the plight of haitians in the DR is the same plight dominicans immigrating to other countries mainly USA/PR. I went to puerto rico and it was nothing but dominicans in Mayaguez and doing jobs that Puerto Ricans consider beneath them. Las cosas que pasan en la vida, homie.
Now I concur that haiti has to stablize herself and prevent humble haitians from crossing the border. Now in my world it would be insane for me to cross over the border illegally looking for work in a poor country such as DR where there own citizens are waiting every night at locations to get out themselves. Another point I would like to mention how come dominicans werent vociferando when terrorist used their territory to destablize an elected democratic president in 2004. If you look closely humble haitians are forced to flee where ever they can and the easiest way out is east.
You hit it on the head man...There seems to be a double standard within the Dominican governmnet when it comes to Haiti. They say out in the open "we must help Haiti become stable & they need more economic aid". At the same time, there giving Guy Phillipe, Lois Chamblaine Dominican army Uniform, military bases, M-16 & Ak-47, so they can go in and rape, pillage, and committ treason against there own people. That kind of stuff is simply digusting!! A strong and prosperous Haiti is not in the best interest of the Dominican Government.
Dagtag, I agree waste of my time..but it is a sad case to see the pot calling the kettle black...is there a mirror in their establishment?
Where did you see that Dominicans have the largest number of Illegals after Mexicans? Considering the fact that there are an estimated 1.5 million Dominicans in the U.S and I'm assuming ten hold of Mexicans you have to take into account the size of the population which is huge and not a fair comparison to such a small population of Dominicans. What I'm trying to say is that if there are 10 Million Mexicans and ten percent of the population is illegal then 1 million illegal Mexicans is way more than the total population of Dominicans which is 1.5 million. Pick a better group for comparison.
Also agents do go around the neighborhood and pick up immigrates in this country, especially if a deportation notice has been issued. Yes, if they applied the same tactics in the Heights than many would go but plenty would stay as they are born here or papers by now. I agree the process used in the DR might not be the best, however, DR has the right deport illegals.
Yes, the DR has a problem with prejudices which has been impeded by the Trujillo regime and was brain washed with our grandparents and especially parents. The older people in the gov't are our parents age and some continue to think like that. However, I believe that is changing with our generation and everyone after us. It takes time to get over such trauma from a dictator. At the same time, it's changing and will change. That ignorance is leaving for those who are educated and learn about it.
Dagtan & Jabao,
Every time you are an immigrate in any country you are considered a second class citizen or lesser than the natives. How everyone you want to phrase it, you are considered lesser than the natives. You have to learn a new culture, adapt to the lifestyle, and prove yourself worthy. All immigrates on Hispanola and across the world know this. In particular, for us, since we are colored and not white like the quote on quote "native" white Americans. That's just the truth! Haitians are no exception in DR or the US or France, or wherever they migrate too they are considered lesser than the natives b/c you are not from there and have to prove yourself. Just like Dominicans in PR/USA/EU, it's the same story boss. It's not right but that's how the world works. When you are not from a native land you are second guessd and are subject to some type of prejudices. That's the way of majority of man. It's not right but it's the way it has been.
Why wouldn't the DR want a strong and stable Haiti??? That needs to happen! It seems like you are blaming the DR for Haiti's downfall. I honestly don't know why Haiti falling so hard only from the outside it's seems due to corruption leading to instability, lack of confidence from investors, and severe neglect from all over the world. It's time to help Haiti but political will on both sides needs to correct the situation. Haiti needs to have the political fortitude to get it's act together. I think the real issue is that France and USA can't accept that a Black Slave Republic ousts the mighty white European conquers to become an independent nation. Those world partners have to realize that they must help to provide stablility to a part of the island they heavily exploided.
Hit me up same name @hotmail.com, we should be meet up for coffee or something.
Eh Pa'lante que vamos!
I am not blaming dominicans for the plight haiti faces today. As you stated the superpowers of the world either never wants this beautiful nation to arise and remind the world of her great history and to serve as a lesson for latin america to view on display if they ever have the courage to liberate themselves and demand respect on the same level. Haiti isn't just the first black republic in the americas but a symbol of liberty to all and also tribute to the indigenous of the island that were virtually extinct.Every time haiti has a coup or fall worse economic issues dominican & haitian business elites make a killing..it is the common dominican and the common haitian that pays and forced to find bread to break afar. I respect the sovereignty of my neighbours and have to abide by there laws. When I resided there I was treated better than the typical dominicans because of the colour of my skin and spoke spanish very well. I paid no dues rather partied on la Lincoln
how there you!!!
I have many hatian friends here in DR, and they have traveled back and forth for the holidays to haiti, , in Caribetour without any problems. I think this is all hyped up, for what reason i do not know.
I think the picture you paint is bleaker than what it is. Yes, I have to do my research on that. This generation in my eyes with the experiences I've had at the college level with my Dominican colleagues, is on point and making a difference from Boston to NY. All over tthe country DOminicans ae progressin
Oyeme, hermano la cosa esta cambiando. Progess is being made, there is always more room for improvement but things are definitely changing from our parents generation to our generation. The Dominican community is a progressive community in the US and it will continue to happen as long as we keep supporting each other. Sky's the limit my friend.
Check this out http://www.earthinstitute.columbi....vising/documents/rivera_batiz.pdf
I'm sure we will get along. I am first-generation, Dominican-American, the second generation in my family is still young (early middle school and elementary school age) and I'm assuming that is the case for most of Dominicans. Second-generation and third-generation Dominican-American is a young population still. Given the success of the first-generation Dominican-American as we have noted, it's only logical to say that second and possibly third will continue the trend.
Yes, I agree with you that our community needs to improve in some areas which is need improvement. Every community has this problem and it's not just us. I still believe were are doing well and will continue to do so as long as we keep each other work through issues as you have pointed out. Politically Mexicans, Cubans, and PR have done better. I would hope Mexicans would have a voice since they are the largest hispance group in America. cont...
Cubans have influence b/c Cuba is a Social-dictatorship or really a dictatorship and the U.S. is committed to support all Cubans in their fight to make Cuba a democracy. Also, Cubans have integrated themselves well in the U.S. and share the same beliefs as the U.S. Gov't. Puerto Ricans are technically American citizens and are successful in the U.S. which helps them obtain political power. Dominicans are still a young population that is growing and becoming more educated and involved in the U.S. The Dominicans that came or come to the U.S., the majority of them could care less about being involved in the U.S. politics and only look to return back to DR. However, they have kids here and those, like myself, first generation are the those making the strides to get involved poltically. cont.
In a previous post you mentioned why the Dominican government would not want a strong and stable Haiti?....Allow me to answer this for you....A strong and stable Haiti would simply off-set the balance of power on Hispaniola, which currently benefits the Dominican Republic. To add to this, the United States, as well as France and other European nations would lose greatly because foreign companies like Disney, Wal-mart, Coca-Cola, would have to pay Haitians an exhuberant some of money that amounts to more than 30 Cents per-hour. This is what they risk if Haiti becomes stable, the economy increase, cost of living goes down. A change like that would be devasteting for the worlds super-powers. Now dont get me wrong, I still wish relations between Haiti/D.R. get better but nothing has seriously changed since 1804.
This is something off the topic, but I figured I would give it a try. In a few weeks I need to go to La Vega for a 2 months (1/27- 3/30), and b/c of the Carnival, I'm having a hard time finding a place to stay. Does anyone know of a real estate office that rents studios or smallapartments, or a reasonably price hotel?
send me an email (gonze459@newschool.edu).
Sorry for clogging up the space with this mundane here...
cheers,
TO that end, maybe we can aim to have two running "salons"- one in Santo Domingo and one in NY.
We just need volunteers to help set up - essentially chose a location, and send out emails to whomever expresses interest.
How does that sound?
if you're interested email me @ baldoria23@gmail.com.
Also - I'm currently in NY and will be leaving back to the DR Next week, anyone up for getting together Monday @ 6:00pm in Manhattan?
I expect some emails ;)
My Dad - Dujaro- owns a colmado and Mom - Mirta - owns a beauty salon on la 16 de agosto.
Email me with your contact info. would be great to be in touch wiht one of my town mates.