name one economy in the world .....that is immune....when the USA goes .....everybody goes......just like 1929.....so no one except morons and terrorists should be cheering

Gouletcolonial,

Terrorists or morons? You just described about half the world's population (morons being the bigger of the two groups).

you got that right senor Miller

everyone should be cheering, when the us goes down everyone will be better off, their an imperialism. Of course at first many countries will suffer, but trust me once it's gone their will be a lot more food to eat for the rest of the world. For example, the u.s. consumes 50% of the worlds gasoline and only makes up about 5% of the worlds population, just to name one resource. A poorer United states would mean a richer world.

The capitalist gets profit from the exploitation of labor of the worker.

The value of the worker's labor is the value of the basket of goods and services needed to produce and reproduce the worker's ... and his family's ... labor.

The price of labor ... wages or salaries or fees or commissions ... is the monetary expression of the value of labor, as defined above, or, in other words, the expression of value of labor in money terms.

Prices fluctuates at, above, or below value, but over time evens out.

The capitalist wants to reduce the price of labor to the lowest amount needed to keep the worker alive ... barely ... and working or, in other words, subsistence.

Outsourcing by the capitalist is the search for subsistence wages, increasingly for young women, for child labor, and for workers unprotected by trade unions.

Bourgeois democracy is the best form of state for this barbarism.

In a crisis, the capitalist cuts wages toward his ideal of subsistence.

The capitalist believes and feels that he himself is being "exploited" by the worker if the capitalist pays a wage that exceeds the bare minimum needed to keep the worker barely alive.

This "excess" is the difference between the price of labor and the value of labor or when the wage is more than enough to keep the worker barely alive.

This wage of the worker includes the individual money payment to the worker for the sell of his labor as well as the benefits of social programs... education, health care, housing, nutrition, etc. ... collectively administered to the workers in lieu of individual wages.

This is why the US imperialists ... the supreme section of the international bourgeoisie ...acting directly or through IMF and World Bank, demand wage cuts and closing schools and hospitals, even in the best of economic times, for less developed countries.

The job of ideological reactionaries is to make this system of exploitation and oppression look beautiful and sublime.

In the short term. the current crisis of US capitalism may benefit capitalist economies of some Latin American countries by the acceleration of the export or flow of production, capital, and jobs from the USA to Latin America in search for a higher rate of exploitation of labor, to outlast the ravages of the crisis.

But, in time, the export of US jobs will drive down the US demand for goods and services whether they are produced in the US or Latin America, causing a fall in retail sales and huge lay-offs, thus intensifying the decline of US demand for cheap imports.

The result will likely be a progessive disappearance of a US market and US demand for many Latin American exports, regardless of the rate of exploitation of labor, unless this rate is reduced to economic system of slavery, pockets of which already exists in the DR, El Salvador, Haiti, Guatemala, and Honduras.

LBJ should have pulled out.......

Corporation are the enemy!!!

"Nevertheless, Cox said countries that import raw materials, especially Central America and the Caribbean, 'which buy part of their food and fuels abroad, are going to be hit'."

oooo

So, how do these countries get capital to fund the production of goods for export to earn hard currency to buy their" food and fuels" from abroad?

Either foreign/domestic investment ... or ... intensification of labor exploitation ... or ... prostitution ... or ... drug trade ... or ... human smuggling.

First, you offer a large segment of the children of country to sexual exploitation of degenrates from Canada, USA, and Europe in the so-called "tourist industry" which is really modern-day prostitution based on child whores. Of course, the child whores get only a wage that keeps them alive barely.

Capitalism has always been the prostitution of children, men, women, and other animals on a grand scale, but bourgeois ideologists present this depravity and perversion as "development."

Why do you guys even acknowledge Belial? Honestly, I'm not even sure he exists. More than likely it is someone playing a character to get a rise out of everyone. It's almost impossible to be wrong 100% of the time, even with his gorilla logic. He sounds like Noam Chomsky on acid.

http://www.thecandidacy.com/categ....andalls-rants/politics-in-the-dr/

In the USA, the glorious paradise of capitalism, over a million children live off the streets, most of them are full time or part time whores or, more specifically, streetwalkers..
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/education.pdf

USA is a kind of model in the field of depravity that many less developed countries strive to emulate.

This is why degenerates love capitalism.

even the doorknob chomsky mentor of queen hillary .....on acid would make more sense than toxic piggy belial

"Why do you guys even acknowledge Belial?" asks a befuddled RHMiller.

Why do you? Honestly.

"I'm not even sure he exists," RHMiller wonders.

Are you sure of anything? Honestly?

"More than likely it is someone playing a character to get a rise out of everyone," RHMiller speculates.

Only the Nazarene makes the dead rise. I like the dead to remain down.

"It's almost impossible to be wrong 100% of the time, even with his gorilla logic," RHMiller says with finality.

Are you sure of this? Honestly?

"He sounds like Noam Chomsky on acid," RHMiller compares and discredits.

I am a Marxist-Leninist who wants to impart in a democratic manner a proletarian content to the state, not an anarchist as is Prof. Chomsky who wants to abolish the state whatever it's class content.

Neither I nor Prof. Chomsky believes or feels we are morally or socially inferior to the slimy bourgeois, your model for humanity; so, we don't need "acid" to feel good about ourselves.


"

"Chomsky is a self-proclaimed Libertarian-Socialist. Not even close to being an anarchist, " RHMiller declares to correct Belial's never-ending string of inaccuracies. Ok, now I'm done feeding the troll. Bye Bye Comrade

"Chomsky is a self-proclaimed Libertarian-Socialist. Not even close to being an anarchist, " RHMiller declares to correct Belial's never-ending string of inaccuracies. Ok, now I'm done feeding the troll. Bye Bye Comrade"

oooo

Chomsky, in your quote above, is referred to in the third person.

However, Chomsky, in the first person or in his own words, sees "libertarian-socialism" as one of many present-day and competing trends within the anarchist tradition.

See, his "Notes on Anarchism" (1970)
http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/other/notes-on-anarchism.html

RHMiller, you are a philistine. So, you have no business even coming near matters of theory.

Philistines invariably babble about their offensive opinions of others because philistines are so stupid that they can't stay on topic without immediate exhaustion of their knowledge, if any, of the topic.

THE TOPIC: "Latin American economy isn’t "immune" to U.S. crisis"

Key terms are;

(1) "Latin American economy."

Given the limited degree of integration, this term may not exist, except nominally. What seems to exist instead are Latin American "economies."

(2) "Isn't immune."

Whatever it is that exists, this negative terms seems to apply to it.

(3) "U.S. crisis."

The question of the reality of the US crisis is not even posed, rather it is presupposed. Only vile running dogs of US imperialism will deny the reality of the US crisis.

So, the topic is about the economies of Latin America, whether collectively or individually, being hurt by a failed and unsustainable capitalism in the US.

Which ones the most and the least?

Will any benefit?

Belial, stop plagirizing Marx's manifesto and get real. Don't like capitalism? Then leave the USA and go live in Cuba. Why are you still here if you hate it so much? Obviously you think you would be better off not having the freedom to choose your own profession, or your own food, or what books to read, or even what to say.

the plagiarizing klepto cant help himself....he will be executed for crimes against humanity and boredom

"Then leave the USA and go live in Cuba. Why are you still here if you hate it so much?"

oooo

Reciprocally, I can tell you where to go, but you sound like you're already there.

I'm still here for the same reasons that your bourgeois masters are still here ... to prevail in the class struggle, here.

If you and your bourgeois masters like it here so much, why don't you keep your filthy behinds here and out other countries, like Iraq, which you occupy and commit genocide based on disgusting lies about WMDs and 9/11?

"Hate?" I defend the US constitution against people like you who grovel before and kisses the behind of G.W. Bush, a man who treats and says "The US Constitution is nothing but a Goddamn piece of paper."

If you advise people to go to Cuba because they do or don't like it here, why are you so two-faced about your advice. You no doubt support the prison sentences up to 10 years and fines up to $250,000 which restricts millions of US citizens from going.

the class struggle you say.?....you have no class.....you are nothing but a toxic swine,spewing your jingo propagandistic drivel like projectile vomiting on people who are civilized.....class you say?you are lower than a snakes belly

"U.S. crisis."

oooo

The question is how critical is the crisis. There is no transparency in the US capitalist financial system. Just a big pile of lies.

Still, DR has to disclose to the US imperialists everything DR does or thinks about doing, like the "Sun" deal.

The bourgeois scum waives the requirement of transparency for the US imperialists.

Bourgeois masters??? LOL. I see you are still living in feudal times. First, you should be glad you live in a country that allows you to write this garbage without being persecuted. Second, like you, I oppose the Iraq war and do think we should respect the Constitution. However, the difference between us is that I don't just sit down, cross my arms, play the victim, and write nonsense. Third, as an investor, I can tell you for sure that there is more than enough disseminated information in the US financial markets for anyone to make an informed decision on where to put your money. Those who make the wrong decision lose, and those who make the right one win. That's what capitalism is all about. Or maybe you just want to win without making an effort at all? Maybe you'll like to stay in your beautiful American couch all day and have the government take care of you, as supposed to doing it yourself.

saturn15....stop abusing the mentally challenged ...you should be ashamed of yourself

actually, saturn, there is no correlation i know of between good decision making and capitalism. if you make good decisions in socialist economies you will win ,just as you do in capitalism. and i disagree with you regarding the democratic state of disseminated information about financial markets. maybe you should have explained that to the guys from Bear Sterns, not to mention the others who are going to take the fall in the near future. i hope you do not lose your money, but posting an article which asserts the certitude of astute decision making is highly simplistic at best. and please, not everyone who disagrees with the core tenets of capitalism is looking for a handout. i don't know where in God's name some people get that notion from. there are, incidentally, lots of people who lie on the couch all day, doing nothing constructive, still ensconced in the lap of luxury. they are called the children of rich capitalists!

How will you win by making good decisions in communism? Even if you make better decisions than anyone else, the fruits of your work would be evenly distribubted among the general population. So whether u make the right or wrong decisions, it makes no difference in Communism. In fact, a lot of people are smart enough to realize that the best decision you can make is leave to a free country, which is why so many Cubans risk their lives going into Miami. Regarding the dissemination of information in the markets, Bear Stearns was highly leveraged in risky mortgage backed securities. Everyone knew this, even employees. The question is ...given that information, would you put your money in it anyway? Those who considered the securities to be worthless made the right decision by not investing in it . Others lost. That's my point about capitalism, some win and some lose. Your rewards are based on these decisions. I agree with you that there is nothing simple about it, but trust me it works.

sorry Saturnc.....but Dred the Red is heavy into commie socialist school ....but he is not really a bad person

the disagreement i have is that every time someone expresses disagreement with capitalism, the knee-jerk reaction is to suggest that they move to Cuba if they don't like capitalism. the world is not that simple and monochromatic as that . there are countries in which the means of production are more justly structured, the rewards of labor more equitably distributed and people seem to live lives just as happliy as those who live in countries characterised by rampaging exploitation and aggrandisement. look at scandinavian countries: none of them is Cuba, but people receive a fair wage, good schooling, good health care, and , best of all, there are ceilings on CEO compensation. true it is that the tax rates may appear extortionate to us in the USA, but nothing good comes without cost. if you are a member of that group known as rugged individualists, who seek only their own self interest, those who believe in the dictum" every man for himself, God for us all, devil take the hindmost"

contd; then the USA and similarly capitalistic societies will be your cup of tea. if, on the other hand ,you view society as some sort of collective, one in which everyone has value and entitlement to a decent life, you might end up disagreeing with that model. as i have said before, this nonsense about the rewards of hard work is an old saw that rivals the one that says" blessed are the poor, for they shall enter into the kingdom of heaven". when i go to the capital on friday nights, i see all manner of idle rich kids sticking their asses through the sunroofs of daddy's s500 benzes. i havent seen too many of these cars being manned by the haitians who toil in the midday sun on the construction sites!!

Goulet, i remember asking you to hereinafter refer to me as Mr Trotsky. because i will never accept the morality of a system which allows the systematic exploitation of groups of people by other groups. you know what? i feel the same way about Cuba to a lesser degree, because, surely, exploitation exists there too. human nature being what it is, there are no absolutes and perfect scenarios. all that having been said, i take no joy in being a member of a society in which 2.3 milliion people are in imminent danger of having their houses foreclosed upon, yet the authors of the racket, those responsible for widespread destruction of millions of families, walk away with untold millions of golden parachute. that simply cannot be fair, but some people call it "the risks of capitalism". funny how the ill effects of the risks always seem to land upon the poor and weak. it is exactly because man is by nature greedy, thoughtless and selfish, that social engineering has to be directed toward

mitigating the detrimental effects of a deficiency of conscience. if economic might makes right, why not other types of might? what about physical might? why shouldn't some guy just walk up to you at the bus stop and punch your lights out, offering as his excuse "might makes right"?

he has a distant cousin named belial who is even more radically nutty

Sweden with 9 million homogenized white people good example of socialism or Mugabes Zimbabwe what will it be dred?

Goulet, i find it a sad commentary on the human condition when concern for the poor is characterised as radicalism. i know you cannot be serious! this seems to be more of your mischief!

that is the difficulty of implementing socialism that works anywhere.....it is rare

what does "9 million white people" have to do with anything? can you explain that? and i am not a supporter of mugabe either, just in case you assume that>

Ok, let's look at Scandinavian countries.Yes, everyone gets free healthcare, but how long do they have to wait to receive treatment? I was in Sweden some time ago, and people do not even go into the emergency rooms anymore because they know they will have to wait for the government to approve the treatment doctors recommend. And it takes days before this bureaucratic process gets resolved. How about education? It's a free to everyone, which is great, but why should it be free for those who don't care and get bad grades. When students in Norway see that they will get a free ride no matter what, they decide that getting better grades i just not worth trying. Why try to be better if they'll all end up in the same place anyway? In Finland, CEO compensation is almost the same as that of an entry-level engineer. So why would CEOs try to improve their companies? Whether they do well or not, the compensation will be the same. Have u heard of any succesful Finnish companies? I haven't.

sorry but this soon leads to non responsibility for one actions and the blaming of the victim......starting with The New Deal....The New Frontier....The great Society...etc ...all these social programs end up failing miserably...with few exceptions.....remember those socialist countries you hold up as the examples are nothing like Haiti

Ok, let's look at Scandinavian countries.Yes, everyone gets free healthcare, but how long do they have to wait to receive treatment? I was in Sweden some time ago, and people do not even go into the emergency rooms anymore because they know they will have to wait for the government to approve the treatment doctors recommend. And it takes days before this bureaucratic process gets resolved. How about education? It's a free to everyone, which is great, but why should it be free for those who don't care and get bad grades. When students in Norway see that they will get a free ride no matter what, they decide that getting better grades i just not worth trying. Why try to be better if they'll all end up in the same place anyway? In Finland, CEO compensation is almost the same as that of an entry-level engineer. So why would CEOs try to improve their companies? Whether they do well or not, the compensation will be the same. Have u heard of any succesful Finnish companies? I haven't.

right you are saturn...Dred keeps trying to reinvent the wheel....but socialism does not work.....that is a flat tire

everything is the fault of predatory big business.....Crushing the soul of the worker....Down with the corporate types....down with Globalization down with etc. etc. etc. and redistribute the wealth via compensation for war crimes and other misdeeds ......Methinks dred went to the same church as Obama...the cat is out of the bag......this sounds like the" global poverty act" and that nonsense

The imperialist running dogs seem confident that the state in the USA will give away to the US bourgeoisie, the masters of the groveling running dogs, enough billions of dollars of taxpayers' money to weather the current US crisis.

If US capitalism is so strong, why does the state with its printing press have to bailout the failed system?

What would happen if the state refused to make huge cash handouts to the biggest US capitalists, the masters of the servile running dogs?

These imperialists running dogs haven't caught on that the "US crisis," with which the above DT article deals, is the crisis in US capitalism, not US socialism.

The running dogs are barking, growling, howling, dropping spit, and foaming at the mouth over socialism, although it is capitalism in general and US capitalism in particular that lie in a state of crisis.

US capitalism survives so far because the US regime under the dictator George Bush gives the big capitalists who are in trouble hundreds of billions of dollars of welfare at taxpayers' expense while the workers with their children by the millions are being driven from their foreclosed homes into tent cities and into brand-new shantytowns.

here I am in all my bourgeness....eat me....you loser....to the ramparts ,to the ramparts...we have discovered your dirty little secret.....there is no hope for him" Obama " he is circling the drain

The imperialist running dogs are so two-faced.

On the one hand, they tell the worker "you must rely exclusively on your own resources, because the bourgeois state in not responsible for you in any way or to any degree."

On the other hand, these two-faced running dogs tell the US bourgeoisie "Don't worry, we [ the bourgeoisie state] will bail you out of these tough times even if we have to print and give you a trillion dollars. Now, stop worrying."

The two-faced running dogs of the US bourgeoisie resent the idea that they are bound by the principle of consistency.

GC is the kind of imperialist running dog that can't tolerate an unpleasant reality, in any way or to any degree.

Evidently, the crisis in US capitalism is an unpleasant reality; so, GC can't tolerate it.

GC deals with things he can't or refuses to tolerate with escapism. In other words, he runs away in his mind from the reality ... with his long tail dangling or flying behind him as he flees.

GC congenitally goes off topic from everything that's unpleasant to him in search for something soothing.

So, GC, at bottom, is just a coward, running forever from everything unpleasant.

For decades, the US bourgeoisie in the agricultural sector was subsidized or allowed on welfare.

Now, the US bourgeoisie in the financial sector is subsidized or granted welfare.

Still, these malignant hypocrites, better known as imperialist running dogs, preach the dirty lie that the bourgeois state does not support parasites who are rich, some making as much as $100 million in ONE YEAR. These slimy running dogs with foam dropping from their mouths go behind everybody's back and say "Help the rich in a crisis. The rich need your help, too. Don't discriminate against the rich."

wow Belial, we agree on this. The government should not subsize agrcultural sector, nor bail out banks like Bear Stearns who make the wrong decisions. I think any form of government subsidy is wrong, including welfare and social security and other types of welfare given to both the rich and poor. If there was no safety net in our society people would do more to try to get a good job, like go to school or open a business rather than sleeping all day. But no, unemployment or lack of education actually pays off in this society if u want government assistance. This is why social security is bankrupt, and should be completely priviatized. The government should stop trying to exercise control over the markets and let Adam Smith's invisible hand do its work.

good idea try to humor the moron...in case or before he becomes violent....he is supposed to break that medication in half before he takes it...but he likes being delusional....use caution

Notwithstanding all of the lies and slanders of the slime of the Yukon and of other running dogs of imperialism, the FED has the printing presses of the US regime going full blast to give hundreds of billions of dollars to the creme de la creme of the financial sector of the US bourgeoisie, many of whom now get in excess of $100 million a year in their compensation packages.

The Yukon trash and the hag whose request wasn't granted are delighted.

Not one Latin American securities firm or investment bank, not even Slim's in Mexico, participates in the lavish handouts that the creme de la creme of the financial sector of the US bourgeoisie is getting from the filthy "laissez faire capitalist" regime in Washington under Bush.

that is some pretty disingenuous argument , saturn.since when does free education engender laziness and bad grades? i have heard some pretty disjointed attempts at logic in my time, but this ranks at the top of the pile. are you saying that it only happens in socialist states, or is it a natural human response? do you mean that the same nexus will exist if free education is practised in the USA? have there been any surveys done and articles written to substantiate this assertion? what about students whose parents pay massive amounts of money to send them to costly schools, who simply party their lives away? are you saying there are no underachievers in american colleges? and what data do you have to prove that business CEOs in scandinavia do not excel because they cannot make scandalous amounts of compensation? are you aware that there are societies in the world whose value systems extend beyond self aggrandisement? do you realise that some people value honor above money?

why do you believe that 25 million dollars has not led us to Osama Bin Ladin? because the people who know his whereabouts live by a moral code that is immune to sellout. had 25,000 dollars been offered to someone in America, for example, he would have been put to death years ago. and upping the ante to 50 million is considered a bigger insult by these people. as for health care, i rather wait for treatment than have no access at all. and finally, it is pretty slippery on your part to select finland as an example: i have heard of saab, scania, volvo, etc!!!

Dread, you're good at twisting words, but perhaps you are a DREADFUL reader, so I understand. If you read carefully, you will see that my point was not about laziness, it was about incentives. A free-for-all education means that merit plays no role. Capitalism is a meritocracy. It offers incentives which encourage competition and bring the best out us. I am sure that people value honor over money, and that's why immigrants looking for a better life come to the US right? For honor? Will honor put food on the table for your kids to eat ? What I don't understand is if Socialism is so great, why do most people want to come to the capitalist US? I don't see people risking their lives to go to Scandinavia. If capitalism is so bad and prejudiced, how does someone like Oprah or Obama become so succesful in this country? Even when you don't like this great country , it gives you the freedom to stay or leave. Judging from your location, I see you and Belial have made the right choice.

If you rather wait for treatment as in Socialist countries then maybe you should kindly give up your position in this country to someone who really needs it in North Korea, Vietnam, China or Cuba. Don't you think is a bit hypocritical to reject freedom of thought, speech, and religion, but at the same time be in this country? I mean, there must be a reason why you and Belial are here right? Maybe you can explain why. Maybe it's for honor.

one lies and the other swears to it.....you will not live long to see the the barbarians inside the gates take over.....belial there is a bus out of town in 30 minutes ....be under it

saturn, i really should not have initiated any kind of exchange with you, because i realise that you were going to divert the dialogue from reason to rant. where in my post did i reject freedom of thought? wherein did i advocate that i want to give up living in america? stay on focus, man. simply answer the questions i asked in my post with a substantive article or some data. i for one am very disturbed when people hurl drivel recklessly to bolster some ideological preference. my article does not advocate anything more than the need for logic. if you are capable of linear reasoning, we can proceed apace. if not, this exchange is meaningless: at least to me! as to freedom of speech: it also means freedom to express an opinion without thought police such as yourself importuning me to exit!

saturn , would you kindly explain to my untrained mind what the hell is the nexus between capitalism and oprah in particular? did anyone mention anywhere that capitalism excludes black people? who did? maybe you are the dreadful reader, because i never even hinted at that!!!

and oh, you opine that a free for all education leads to a condition wherein merit plays no role. that is not evidenced by the results in Cuba, where education is free for all and they have the highest literacy rate in the western hemisphere, if not the world. no , saturn, what it does is give an opportunity and access to children of indigent parents, who would otherwise be doomed to a life of sub optimal achievement. i am very skeptical when people refer to america as a meritocracy. it makes me feel that they have never been there. sure, saturn, it is a meritorious grade point average that got george bush into Yale. are you aware of the number of children of the aristocracy who have their places reserved at Harvard and Brown from birth? i guess the word nepotism is not in the webster's dictionary?

I'm not the thought police, sorry to disappoint you. But you did say that you prefer socialism over capitalism. Maybe I misunderstood? I will be more than glad to provide you with some scientific surveys. Let's start with this study:

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html

I suggest a careful look at Figure 2. It's sad how only 50% of all Swedish people have to wait longer than 3 months to get much-needed medical treatment. This is why some prefer to fly over to the US to get the treatment right away and avoid pain for months to come.

I would also take a look at the consequences of lack of competition in Swden due to increased government regulation:

http://ideas.repec.org/p/fth/chices/91.html

I am not bolstering an ideological preference. I am simply trying to explain why every person in the world wants to come to the most capitalist and market driven system in the world. As you will see in those studies, socialism restricts opportunities.

Maybe nepotism exists, but so do opportunities. My hard work and sacrifice (and of course merit) gave me a great Ivy League education. I was born in poverty in DR, and my parents are certainly no Bush family. It's easy to sit around and point fingers, but the opportunities are there. If you don't take advantage then I can't help you buddy. That's what capitalism can do for you. And yes, you can get an education in Cuba, but who are the Cubans getting the top jobs after graduation? have you ever been to Cuba? I HAVE. Those whose families support the so-called revolution are the ones getting the top jobs, and getting preferencial medical treatment. If I was you, I would stop complaining and be grateful my food is not rationed.

Sorry dread, I can't keep signing into this story, but you are more than welcome to set up a discussion page on the facebook. That way we can both get to know each other better and keep this lively discussion going. Let me know.

actually, saturn, i have taken my opportunities, thank you kindly. if you assume that i did not get an education, then you must be hallucinating. but i am not speaking for you nor i. i am speaking for the millions of high school graduates in the usa who end up in the fast food industry because they have no hope of going to college. i am aware of student loans and pell grants and teaching assistant stipends: i put two boys through good schools. however, not too many families from deprived circumstances can afford 25,000 for law school tuition per year. and not everybody is going to get a scholarship, or that would be de facto universal free college tuition. i am not naive enough to believe in the equality of outcomes, but i advocate equality of opportunity. you are not american, and there is a hidden sector of the country with which you will never be familiar. you might have been to an ivy league school, but you will never be an ivy leaguer.

you went to school with kids whose daddies can call the dean and tell him what to do when his kid violates university policy. you, on the other hand, get a summons to the dean's office. get the picture?

i welcome your invitation, saturn. have a great evening.

I haven't said you are not educated, because I can tell you are. You asked for surveys and evidence to prove my point, and I have given you just that. But once again you are playing the victim. The system is always out to get you isn't it? To you other point, I HAVE actually called the dean's office, and as a proud member of my schools's alumni board of trustees I can say that my relationship with the dean is just as good as anybody else's. As an Ivy alumni, And yes, I've had the fortune to be an Ivy Leaguer and enjoy its benefits, even after coming from a humble background. I'm not the type of person that sits back and plays the victim, I actually get off my couch and make it happen. Besides grants, there are things call "loans" that are available to anyone who wishes to attend law school.

sorry to disappoint you, saturn, but you are not an ivy leaguer. you might be an alumnus of an ivy league school, but you are not a member of the class of americans who are regarded as ivy leaguers. you might be able to call the dean's office to say hello or ask for a favor, but you cannot call the dean and give him his marching orders. that is reserved for the stratosphere of american society, the bush and kennedy families, sam walton, etc. these are the fathers of kids who, when they get in trouble, daddy says " i'll make a call". i don't mean to demean you, but you do not fall into that category. i don't know you personally, but if you came from an impoverished dominican family ,as you assert, you don't qualify! and yes, there are loans available for all types of schooling, not only law. however, starting life with a debt of 120,000 is too much of a burden for most poor families.

So your point is that it is impossible to come from an impoverished background and become an "Ivy leaguer". Apparently that automatically disqualifies me no matter what. Last time I checked, Sam Walton lived in a small Oklahoma farm before he founded Walmart and became succesful. Based on your judgement, Sam Walton could never capture the great opportunities this country offers to everyone (even your kids) and therefore he could never be part of the "stratosphere" of American society. Dread, the influence rich American families have today didn't come out of thing air. There is a story behind every sucess in this country, and if you try hard enough and stop victimizing yourself, you too can be part of the great American story, as Barack Obama has been able to do. Try to understand that the white man or fat corporate cats are not out to get you, they're too busy enjoying life and dealing with their own problems.

where do you get this crap from that i am expressing victimology? as an ivy league alumnus you should be able to argue more lucidly. because i do not believe that capitalism offers equal opportunity means that i am acting the victim? i have had the good fortune of being allowed an academic opportunity that is extended to only a few hundred people in the world each year. you seem to believe that i am some downtrodden indigent, blaming the system. i am most decidedly not. but neither do i belong to that group of people who cavalierly offer the statement" i made it, and so can you" that is an oversimplification of how things work. i did not come from poverty, and i did not have to scratch and claw my way through school. however, there are people, who,because of financial considerations, cannot attend college. you remind me of the sons and daughters of the poor who, once they achieve any degree of success, become rabid right wing protagonists, blaming the poor for their failures.

this notion that everyone can do it is simplistic beyond belief. it implies that there are people among us who are either incorrigibly lazy and unmotivated, or just love being failures! there are, if you must know, people whose financial circumstances do not allow them to go to college unless it is free. as poor as you might have been, there are others far worse than you. as to the subject of ivy leaguers: you might be an ivy league alumnus, but do not delude yourself in the belief that you are a member of that hallowed group of elite families that constituted the original ivy league. now the name refers mainly to the athletic conference that bears its name. but rest assured that when some member of the carnegie or mellon or bush families throws a holiday soiree, you will not be on the guest list. these are blue blood wasp types, almost all of them protestants by religion. you know the types whose ancestors came over on the mayflower. if yours did, i stand corrected!!

i just find it very unsettling for you to sermonize to me about the virtues of self assertion and hard work: i find it condescending and reminiscent of the kind of thing one would expect from the likes of Clarence Thomas. contrary to erroneous belief, not everybody receives the same opportunities in america. there is a shortage of just about everything except laundry detergents and breakfast cereal. the rest is essentially rationed, as in the case of college space. guys with the financial wherewithal to afford the extortionate fees will get through the hallowed halls long before some child whose mother cleans toilets for a living while his dad checks off the calendar in attica prison!

as a final aside, people like Noam Chomsky , who continually argue against the ravages of capitalism, are not derelicts sleeping under highway overpasses. and take a look at the joys of capitalism in latin america. i guess you are saying that all the dominicans and haitians, brazilians and colombians living in abject poverty are in that position because they are human chaff, while those in the hummers are beacons of hard work and self assertion.

First, I'm not right wing. I am proud Obama supporter because he understands that anyone in this country can fulfill the promise of this country's founders, no matter what your color is. I understand that financial situation of some families may prevent them from attending expensive schools, but the opportunity to get an education is always there. Colin Powell did not have the money to attend a great school while growing up in the Bronx. Nevertheless, through great sacrifices, he was able to go to school and become the great leader he is today. And yes, you ARE playing the victim once again by suggesting that only "protestants whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower" are "ivy leaguers". I do not need to be protestant or have ancestors who "came over on the Mayflower" to reach power and fortune, and neither do your kids, assuming they don't have your inferiority complex. If they do then there is not much they can look up to as their ambitions can only go as far as they want them to.

No I am refering to the US, not to the rest of the world.

And yes, everyone in this country goes as far as they want to. No one is holding a gun to your head preventing you from doing so, ESPECIALLY when affirmative action allows us to do just that.

dredy deals the slimy race card off the bottom of the deck......as usual

Well, I actually disagree with Clarence Thomas in a lot of issues. If we were talking about Haitians in DR, or Ecuadorians in Peru, or Morocans in Spain then I would say YES, they are obviously at a disadvantage and equality of opportunity is clearly nonexistent. But we're talking about the US buddy. Universities are willing to accept accomplished students of all colors. Affirmative action gives us an extra push to all of us to succeed. You may take offense when I tell you the truth, but some of us take offense when the land which has given us all of our opportunities is constantly being bashed by people who are bitter by the myth of oppression.

sorry but the very reverend Wright has cooked Obamas goose....the truth is beginning to come out ....and it is not pretty

goulet, Rev. Wright is not the one running for president, Obama is. I suggest this reading...

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2249903820080322

http://marathonpundit.blogspot.co....-bill-ayers-problem.html......The other shoe will soon drop

where is the quarter wit belial to join in on these festivities

first of all, i will not reply to Goulet because he states everything in terms of race: it is his fixation. at no time did i introduce race as a factor retarding opportunity in america. there are white people in arkansas and west virginia who are equally as poor as people in harlem: i, like you, live in the USA and know this. secondly, saturn, let me disabuse you of the notion that you are an ivy leaguer. you do not strive to be an ivy leaguer, nor do you achieve ivy league status. you are either born an ivy leaguer or you are not ,in the strictest sense of the term. not because you went to Eton or Harrow makes you royalty. and i wish you would focus your argument within a narrower bandwidth. what are we talking about here: capitalism, or the USA? we started off discussing the merits and demerits of capitalism and socialism, and now the discourse has mutated to the subject of the USA as a land of opportunity. is that how debate is done in the ivy league? i should hope not.

Madame Obama has some serious issues as well...... by the end of the month they will be holding hands with Big Al sharpton and Jesse and Maxine Waters et al...... and it will be curtains for the democrats

i find it very underhanded and disingenuous to assert that i view this issue through a racial lens. show me one sentence that is racially centered in any of the postings in this thread. i defy you, saturn!

as for you Goulet, you should be happy that Belial and i are on this forum. everyone else seems to have abandoned you. then again, if your mind has forsaken you, why shouldn't they?

touche

dred you should be ashamed citing known losers like Chomsky [Hillarys Svengali]in your post

Dread, don't be bitter only because you did not get to chance to attend an Ivy, as I did. Apparently the definition of an Ivy leaguer goes beyond being an alumni of the top American university. I understand that there is a certain feeling of resentment that comes from not being qualified for the top schools and wanting to minimize its importance. May I suggest you look up the definition? I am no royalty, nor do I need to be to be successful in this country, that is the beauty of our capitalist society. But it has given me the opportunity to succeed in whatever I set my sights on. You should understand that not all capitalism is created equal. To think that US capitalism is the same as in Latin America is naive at best. Sorry if the argument was going too fast for you to comprehend, but you had already narrowed discussion when you talked about the people "whose descendants came on the Mayflower". Doesn't that sound like the US to you?
Is this how you raised your kids? as victims?

I didn't say you view it through racial lens, I am just saying that being a minority can actually be an advantage when it comes to getting ahead.

On the other hand, I find it amazing that I am going back and forth between writing on this site and going over the taxes I have to pay by next week. I guess this is the price for capturing investment opportunities this great country has to offer.

i am now beginning to doubt that you went to any kind of college, let alone an ivy league school. if you did, you could not have attended any classes pertaining to logic. i have no envy nor resentment for you, so do not annoy me with your bombast. i was accepted to both oxford and cambridge, and also the four inns of law in england, was a rhodes scholar candidate and received scholarships reserved for very few people in the world annually. i am sorry that you have a limited understanding of american society. sadly, my mother has passed away: having been a midwife to some of america's foremost aristocrats, she would have been better able to educate you on that subject. apparently you revel in the joys of reminding us incessantly that you are an ivy league alumnus, as if that makes you anything special. i have friends who attended high school with me, who applied to the same undergrad school as i did. they were rejected, only to end up at Cornell. i do not need to look up the definition

of ivy league: i know what it means. and you are not a part of the sector of american society regarded as ivy league. you may get away with telling that to someone in barahona, but try to remember that i live in the USA.

as an aside, saturn, members of the ivy league NEVER declare publicly how much money or education they have. they have a certain understated savoir faire that sets them apart. it is all a part of their social genre: it is the nouveau riche who prattle on incessantly about what they have achieved " by hard work" . a true ivy leaguer would never tell people that they achieved their position by sheer dint of hard work, having clawed their way up from the bottom. true ivy leaguers are not born at the bottom! graduates from an ivy league school yes: members of ivy league families,no. lastly, real ivy league families dont " go over their taxes", fretting over money. that is done for them by some wall street tax attorneys!

You are free to believe what you choose to, and I do not need to state my credentials or prove to you what I have attained through hard work and sacrifice. Each of us know what we are capable of accomplishing. My point was simply that ANYONE has the same opportunity I had. I don't come from "aristocracy", nor was I even middle class before coming to the US. Yet, this country was willing to give me a chance. I don't blame the system, I blame the individual. I don't care whether your mom cleans toilets or your dad works in prison. The opportunities are available, and there are plenty of such examples in our society. I can either CHOOSE to take advantage of capitalism, or like you, I can just sit back, blame aristocrats, and conform to my status. Unlike you, I find no use in lamenting the supposedly lack of opportunities in capitalism. I am glad my children will some day grow up in a country where they have the same opportunities as anybody else. Your kids will some day be glad as well.

dred...stop this whining and complaining and go make some money and give it to Bill Gates.....if its good enough for Warren its good enough for you

LOL. Clearly your definition of an Ivy leaguer differs from mine. Somehow you seem to believe that Ivi League alumni are a mysterious society which is committed to the secrecy of credentials. I report my own investments because I can do it faster than anybody else. I don't need attorneys to do it for me, as I have not been involved in transactions which would be legally scrutinized. Moreover, your poor imagination has created this so called "Ivy league family" ,which resembles aristocracy. Aristocracy is not the same as Ivy Leaguer. And being that you are not one, how would you know how such "Ivy Leaguers" (used in its proper definition) are supposed to behave? As I said previously, I am no royalty. But I am not willing to make generalizations about a certain group of individuals, as you have. All i can say is that you can rest assured, your children have the same opportunities as anybody else in this country. This country isn't perfect, but it surely is more perfect than others.

A reading suggestion for you dred: Free To Choose by Milton Friedman. Given your credentials (which are clearly doubtable) you should have no problem in following the author.

where in God's name did you get the idea from that i have a plight which i blame on anyone? you have this asine notion that i sit in a chair all day lamenting my misfortune and blaming it on the system. you expressed pity for me that i did not have your opportunities to attend an ivy league school. that is the only reason why i bothered to trot out my credentials. i am sure that my academic credentials are more formidable than yours. and do not express any sympathetic hopes for my children. both have been to major european universities, on scholarship,thank you.unlike you, i did not grow up in poverty, and was exposed to first class educational institutions from the beginning. i never went to public school, and always had access to the best opportunities. maybe that is why i can mount a focused argument which does not wander off into endless drivel and uncertainty. besides, i supervised a department which was populeted by a graduate from Brown: he was among the dumbest guys i ever met

so ivy league,schmivy league. Harvard has nothing over Stanford and MIT, in their fields of specialty.

So basically you did not grow up in poverty, never went to public school, had all the opportunities you wished, and have no experiences whatsoever with how poor people like myself can succeed in a capitalist US. So what would a person like YOU know about opportunities. Don't you think that someone with my experience would be more credible in arguing whether or not everyone has the same opportunities under capitalism? If you've always had everything given to you, then you can't possibly pretend to understand what it means to come from nothing to everything under capitalism.

you can doubt my credentials all you want. and i will not bother discuss the subject of ivy leaguer with you any more. if you believe you are one, and it makes you feel important, then be my guest. paint it on your car, for God's sake. and as to your assertion that i ought not know how ivy leaguers behave, because i am not one: i wouldn't expect such nonsense from an ivy league man. after all, i am not a cat either, but i have a fair to middling idea of how they behave!

are you saying that people who have had opportunities in life do not understand those who don't? it is precisely because i realise that not everyone can have the opportunities that i have had which makes me argue for a system which is more inclusive, such as free education. i believe that not only people who have had the genetic good fortune that i had should be able to attend school and university. so we have taken the scenic route back to the start of my postulate

Sorry if my arguments seem a bit not focused to you. Unlike you, I am focusing on doing more important things than trying to argue already well-known facts.

I can't help to feel sorry for your kids. They grew up on this? LOL. No matter what university they attended, if they think of themselves as victims they will surely not get very far. I just hope that they have not inherited the same resentment over capitalism that you have. But I understand, resentment can be a consequence of jealousy.

Great generalizations dread, I also know how people like you behave and how they seem to think the system is out to get them.

In conclusion....don't like it? Either leave, or get used to it, because capitalism in the US is here to stay. Thank God ! Consider this debate finished oh so educated dread !

a course in linguistics might be helpful to you, saturn. you don't seem to be able to make the distinction between disagreement and resentment. i may disagree with a judge's ruling, but that does not mean i resent the law! why do i bother? this is all too esoteric for you, anyway. why don't you just go ahead and hang your college flag for all to see, and honk the horn of the bimmer all the way to the bank? maybe some clever electronics whiz kid can fabricate you a horn which beeps" look at me; i am a success, and you're not".

hey saturn, now that Goulet has drank his cup of hot cocoa and metamucil and tucked himself in for the night, i suggest you retire too. he who fights and runs away, will live to fight another day. you seem to have worn down a bit. even Goulet has more stamina, even though he rarely makes sense. good night, sweet princes.

wait: i didn't see that one. you call me oh so educated dread? weren't you the guy who started off telling us that you are an IVY LEAGUE MAN? i tell you man, it is past your bedtime!

Here's Business Week's take of the Bear Stearn thing.

"In retrospect, the investment strategies of Bear Stearns (BSC) executives were anything but prudent. By loading up the bank's balance sheet with toxic, mortgage-backed securities, they lost the confidence of lenders and clients—and on Mar. 16, control of the firm. But in the years leading up to Bear's collapse, top executives made tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars on the earnings that were puffed up by those short-sighted decisions."
http://images.businessweek.com/ss....rstearns/index_01.htm?chan=search

Latin Americans ... workers, middle class, and capitalists ... were important as both "lenders and clients" of Bear Stearns as well as investors, especially pension funds and central banks, which poured billions of dollars into the pockets of "top executives [who] made tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars."

Suckers shouldn't have fallen for all the trashy bourgeois ideology.

In Latin America, Bear Stearn, among other things, was deep into shylock [loan sharking] consumer financing operations and the lead-firm that administered the investment side of the implementation of CAFTA.

Bear modelled itself on the dead Soloman Brothers firm with its concentration on mortgage-backed securities and, to a lesser extent, on Citigroup with shylocking consumers.

Like Solomon, Bear was infested with PhDs in math, physics, and statistics ... most of whom were rightwing scum out of the Harvards, Yales, Princetons, Sanfords and Chicagos ... who pretended omniscience in all things financial.

Mid-level people were getting ... not "making" ... anywhere between $25 and $75 million.

The bourgeois knows how to loot their suckers who worship and exalt "successful" capitalists.

Bear Stearn and Lehman Bro's. screwed up the nice mortgage-backed securities racket when they used the adjustable rate provision in mortgages to loot the homeowners, increasing the monthly payments anywhere from 300% to 500%, knowing that the adjustment was mathematically untenable even with the possibility of refinancing.

Given the average growth in personal income in the USA, adjustments in homeowner monthly mortgage payments somewhere between 50% to about 100% are mathematically feasible.

These adjustables were used as underlying assets for securities that promised junk-bond returns of 9% or 11%, which exceedingly popular in Latin America where Bear was robust.

Bear organized its own hedge funds to market the junk and bought other hedge funds which remain nominally independent of Bear.

Bear is capitalism at its best and brightest. There's more to come. The bourgeoisie will never abandon or leave its suckers alone.

The point was made with matchless lucidity by the "Enron" scandals.

The capitalist is lying thief and parasite whose "success" arises, more often than not, from accounting and securities fraud.

Bear extends "Enron" on a grand scale, because Bear demonstrates that no matter how financially and economically literate you are, you can still be had.

You money depends on capitalists who are ... and have always been ... incurably dishonest.

One of the hedge funds set up by the Bear to market its junk was the "Bear Stearns' High-Grade Structured Credit Strategies Enhanced Leverage Fund."

Once the suckers saw the pretty name, they lined up to be fleeced. After all, this hedge fund was "enhanced" and "high-grade" and, finally, "structured." Wow!

The MINIMUM amount to open an account fund was $250,000.

Bear stuffed the hedge fund with low-quality mortgage-back securities ... that is, based on mortgages with adjustable rates ... at or above ... 300% for monthly mortgage payments which Bear knew were beyond the reach