From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
and ,so what can be done about it ?
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 7:49 AM
From: United States
They realized that blaming the oil companies doesn't work anymore so now they are going after the middle men.
From: United States
So now Leonel wants to become king of the petro caribe club and possibly have the money managed in the DR.
This should distract from his own fiscal financial mess with the metro not runnning and all the subsidies.
Written by: juanb, 14 Jul 2008 10:39 AM
From: Dominican Republic
What a disappointment for those of us who voted for Leonel in the hope that he would address the serious problems facing us today. Instead, he chose to put off these important issues in favor of a speech dealing with the speculative nature of investments. In other words, when asked when he would start to confront the problems and when he woul let us know his plans, Leonel answered, HOY NO, MAÑANA SI.
From: United States
LF, you dumb ass. That is what you call capitalism.
If you and your cronies were not focused on raping your own people you could have your own money maker. Quit being a lazy ass.
1) Sugarcane to Ethanol.
2) Grow Jatropha for Biodiesel
3) Wind power… You have plenty.
4) Solar power… You have plenty
5) Ocean power… You have plenty.
You are just a lazy SOB, you feel the reset of the world owes you. Grow up.
You sound like a big baby.
From: United States
close, gmiller. but do not forget that he has to stay true to character and blame someone else first! he presides over a bunch of criminal types who steal everything that is not nailed down. then he blames the bad old outside forces for the economic morass. maybe if entrepreneurs were allowed to function in an environment of security, without daily shakedowns, then people who have something to offer in the way of knowledge would set up business here and improve the economy. but between the uncertainty of energy and the certainty that you will be raped by botellas, people are taking their investment projects elsewhere. the moneylaunderers are buying land all over, but that does not stimulate economic development, despite what people like arcatype and mr dom believe.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 11:32 AM
From: United States, Texas
GLOBAL STRUGGLE AGAINST THE SPECULATORS
p.1 of 3
Speculators -- investment banks, hedge funds, some commercial banks, oil companies, some mutual funds and super-rich individual players -- produce the oil crisis by extreme manipulation of the demand for oil to 10 to 15 times the real demand. The real demand is about 83 million barrels per day. Speculators summit market orders at largely unregulated petroleum exchanges in NYC and London for between 800,000,000 to 1,300,000,000 barrels per day. So, the price of a barrel soars fraudulently.
Speculators mostly, but not exclusively, belong to a financial element of the imperialist segment of the US and UK bourgeoisie.
So, if speculators produce the oil crisis, imperialism, by extension, produces the oil crisis.
The reactionary or conservative wing of the bourgeoisie is notorious for buck-passing. So, speculators and their imperialist allies pass the buck for the oil crisis.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 11:33 AM
From: United States, Texas
GLOBAL STRUGGLE
p. 2 of 3
LF keeps pointing his finger at the speculators, negating and discrediting their deceitful buck-passing and their lying denials of responsibility for the oil crisis which enriches this imperialist trash by 100s of millions of dollars PER year.
LF's finger-pointing is a demand for action against the imperialist speculators by the bourgeois US regime under Bush or by countries and industries hurt by the oil crisis or by both.
Bush and McCain in the USA and Brown in the UK wallow in the same pool of scum as the speculators. These three vicious imperialist dogs are protecting the speculators from legislative and regulatory action that will curb their exploitation and the fraud they inflict on the world.
Since LF began his finger-pointing US Democratic presidential nominee Obama has come out against the speculators and major US airlines have also come out against the speculators in a collective letter to all members of the US Congress.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 11:34 AM
From: United States, Texas
GLOBAL STRUGGLE
p. 2 of 3
Both Obama and the major US airlines knew the imperialist speculators cause the oil crisis before LF pointed his finger at the speculators. But neither had the guts to stand up against the imperialist trash willfully generating the oil crisis before LF did.
Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez and others on the Left pointed fingers at the speculators before LF. But the bourgeois regimes of rich capitalist countries, the powerful capitalist media, and brainwashed masses of rich capitalist countries, where the speculation occurs, laughed at the leftist finger-pointing.
But the finger-pointing of LF has more accusatory power or influence than that of the Leftists, but LF has yet to win a full-blown media breakout.
From: United States
Belial, as usual you make salient observations which are rooted in facts, unlike your detractors who do not allow facts to get in the way. however, given the reality with which we are confronted, it is incumbent upon each and every one of us to act responsibly to collectively reduce the ill effects of the situation. what we sometimes do plays right into the hands of the people who seek to do us injury. how much credibility can you give to Dominican officials who weep and gnash their teeth about outside forces, when they themselves are busy fastening the seat belts in the Hummer?
From: United States
Speculators?
You SFBs. It’s the Futures market.
Airline have invested (bought futures, because they are smart) in oil futures to keep their costs lower. Some Airlines are in the next decade at $50 a barrel.
I am sure most Airlines would fail if they had to pay full price.
LF is a lazy SOB. He knows this is how it works.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Two commies scratching each others backs...a disgusting picture
From: United States
one demented geriatric picking his nose: another disgusting visage.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
touche
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 12:27 PM
From: United States, Texas
"how much credibility can you give to Dominican officials who weep and gnash their teeth about outside forces, when they themselves are busy fastening the seat belts in the Hummer?"
oooo
One ... namely, the pilferings of the Dominican bourgeoisie and middle class within and outside of the state ... is like a common cold with a bad cough.
The other one ... namely, the imperialist speculators looting the whole world in commodities scam ... is like the pestilence of AIDS, with about 50,000,000 people infected and about 6,000,000 dying quietly from the pestilence every year while the rich capitalist countries stockpile medications that the capitalist drug companies produce with hi-tech methods for about 25 cents a dose and sell to impoverished capitalist countries for between $11,000 and $15,000 a year.
One is a firecracker and the other is an atom bomb.
I don't disregard the danger of firecrackers, but neither do I equate their lethality with that of an atom bomb.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 12:29 PM
From: United States, Texas
"one demented geriatric picking his nose: another disgusting visage."
oooo
GC has to be demented because he avidly supports the oil speculators and none of them give him even the smallest cut of the loot.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 12:39 PM
From: United States, Texas
"You SFBs. It’s the Futures market."
oooo
"SFBs," huh.
What a foul temper you have.
It's not the futures market, you fool.
Oil speculation takes place in the futures market, but this market is not the cause of the speculation.
The futures market functioned for decades without extreme speculation in oil contracts. If this market were the cause of rampant speculation, then runaway speculation would have occurred during these decades when the market operated with considerably less speculation.
You sound like another buck-passing GOP blockhead.
Demand for commodities always fluctuates either at or above or below supply and thereby fixes the price of the commodity. Sometime demand is 20% or 30% or even 50% above or below supply. But never before, has demand reached 1000% in excess of supply.
This is not the market, but a thief in the market.
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 12:52 PM
From: United States
"Belial, as usual you make salient observations which are rooted in facts, unlike your detractors who do not allow facts to get in the way."
Dreadlocks,
So untrue. When confronted with the facts Belail is a typical lefty who changes the subject.
Here is a fact.
Anybody who knows even the most basic of economic principles knows that speculators just look at the symptoms and act accordingly to gain profits. It is these profits that drive the world’s economy and technology.
I know this well as I am a speculator. I look for instances where demand will outstrip supply. My profits are then re-invested. This re-investment provides jobs, creates new technologies and saves lives.
What have you done today?
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 1:03 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Here is a fact."
"Anybody who knows even the most basic of economic principles knows that speculators just look at the symptoms and act accordingly to gain profits. It is these profits that drive the world’s economy and technology," anthonyC rolls out his hare-brained economic notions.
oooo
There isn't a word of truth or one fact in what you wrote.
Securities and commodities fraud are not among "the most basic of economic principles."
Speculators deceptively manipulate "symptoms," not look at them.
Thieves don't gain profit, they take loot.
This loot doesn't " drive the world’s economy and technology," this looting destroys it.
Where have I changed the subject?
From: United States
i will not attempt to discuss economics with you, anthony. being a profiteer and being a speculator are two different things. if you believe that speculation and the concomitant overpricing of commodities is what drives the economy , maybe you should tell people like Ben Bernanke that the economy is not in a state of disarray: it is just people like anthonyc providing jobs and saving lives!
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Keep counterpunching Tony dont let the illigitimi get you down ....Professor Dread attended the Grassy Knoll school of economics with a masters from Univ.of Mars
From: United States
sorry, Goulet, the poor chap is already winded. he will need several hours to recuperate, so counterpunching is out of the question. just like you to back a loser!
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 1:21 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Keep counterpunching Tony dont let the illigitimi get you down..."
oooo
Safely on the sideline, GC urges a fight until Tony takes the last blow "Go Tony Go!"
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Dont take this wrong and I am serious .it is like a joke .....#1 cardinal rule of boxing....do you know what it is ?
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 1:53 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Dont take this wrong and I am serious .it is like a joke .....#1 cardinal rule of boxing....do you know what it is ?"
oooo
Don't fight Mexicans.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Never bet on the white guy
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 2:37 PM
From: United States
There isn't a word of truth or one fact in what you wrote.
Securities and commodities fraud are not among "the most basic of economic principles."
Where have I changed the subject?
Right there!
Who said anything about fraud? Can you site massive fraud? Did i say Fraud? Speculation is a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce. Everybody does it. Including you.
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 2:42 PM
From: United States
Bellial & Dreadlocks,
Do you guys even know what Speculating is?
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Tonys back and hes refreshed ...I can here Rockys theme...Its curtains for you belial and dread...start cleaning out your locker and get your resume up to date
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 3:51 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Who said anything about fraud? Can you site massive fraud? Did i say Fraud? Speculation is a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce. Everybody does it. Including you."
oooo
It's fraud, but the authorities neither enforce the law of fraud against the speculators nor tighten the law against speculators.
The speculators are above the law.
But it's still fraud.
Market manipulation in securities and commodities is pretty much the same kind of fraud.
Market manipulation is an attempt to set prices -- or other important criteria of market performance, such as volume traded -- by entering into transactions or combinations for the specific purpose of such manipulation.
This is exactly what the oil speculators are doing and getting away with it because of the rotten GOP regime under Bush is lawless.
Bush, for example, has attached signing statements to over 2000 US laws, stating that he will not enforce them unless he wants to. He often doesn't want to.
Written by: Lautaro, 14 Jul 2008 3:52 PM
From: Brazil
anthonyC said: "Speculation is a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce. Everybody does it. Including you."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slavery was a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce, but that trait didn't make it any less evil. Although I'd wager that speculation have even more potential for provoking widespread destruction than slavery would ever have.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 4:38 PM
From: United States, Texas
The GOP argument that oil speculators are not engaged in fraud goes like this:
Either there is or isn't a general prohibition against fraud in the purchase and sell of commodities, including oil.
If there isn't, then speculation isn't fraud.
If there is a general prohibition, then, the GOPs argue, market manipulation isn't fraud under the general prohibition. In other words, fraud in financial markets may be generally prohibited, but market manipulation is not a specie of fraud.
Then there is the more subtle trick in the argument of GOP thieves in favor of oil speculation.
OK, they concede, even a fool knows that market manipulation is fraud.
But the GOPs dispute that speculation is market manipulation because speculation and investment are intrinsically what markets exist for.
The answer to this deceit is there are fraudulent forms of speculation, just as there are fraudulent forms of investment.
Oil speculation now is the fraudulent speculation.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 4:42 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Slavery was a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce ..."
oooo
That's not an analogy. That is the immediate case itself.
We're being enslaved by a bunch of commodities thieves.
These thieves decide who has or doesn't have access to energy.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
its the old supply and demand routine.....They have the supply and they can demand whatever they want
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 4:50 PM
From: United States
"Slavery was a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce, but that trait didn't make it any less evil. Although I'd wager that speculation have even more potential for provoking widespread destruction than slavery would ever have."
"Bush, for example, has attached signing statements to over 2000 US laws, stating that he will not enforce them unless he wants to. He often doesn't want to."
See what I mean.
They cannot answer or contest my statements so they change the subject. Lautaro even uesed the age olf tried and and true "slavery" gambit.
Still not one of them can tell me that they even know what speculation is.
Belail is the worse because he states he is for the "workers" yet he fails to grasp that a huge percentage of "workers" have their pension plans in funds that invest heavily is speculation. But what the hell! As long as he feels goo
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
you mean to say he dealt the slimy race card off the bottom of the deck ...Lautaro how could you stoop so low
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
as a concession to local culture I will refer to it as the slimy" Race Domino" usually slammed on the table
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 5:09 PM
From: United States, Texas
"its the old supply and demand routine.....They have the supply and they can demand whatever they want, " GC throw in something.
0000
Assume "They" are the oil specualtors.
"its the old supply and demand routine," GC asserts.
Right.
"They [there's the "they"] have the supply and they can demand whatever they want," GC also asserts.
Wrong.
"They" have the demand which they fraudulent exaggerate and misrepresent until it is sometimes 15 times the real demand. It is this phony paper demand that bears not the least correspondence with the real demand of about 83,000,000 barrels a day that speculatively drives up the price of a barrel. This is demand-side.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 5:17 PM
From: United States, Texas
"They cannot answer or contest my statements so they change the subject." anthonyC chides.
0000
You argue that speculation is legal.
I point out that Bush doesn't enforce the law unless he wants to and he said it in writing over 2000 times.
How can you judge "speculation" legal when the laws on market manipulation and fraud aren't enforced by Bush.
This is no change of subject by me.
You can't follow the logic of the argument and counter arguments as the discourse develops and deepens.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 5:35 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Belail is the worse because he states he is for the "workers" yet he fails to grasp that a huge percentage of "workers" have their pension plans in funds that invest heavily is speculation. But what the hell! As long as he feels goo"
oooo
The workers invests -- that is, put money where they expect net income and/or net asset growth.
With more risk, workers also speculate -- that is, they put their money where they expect price changes in mere trading instruments -- options, futures, shares, currencies.
LF is not against legal speculation. LF strongly solicits investors and speculators among capitalists but he doean't knowingly solicit them if they are market manipulators and frauds.
LF says just because a transaction is speculative doesn't mean that it is legal or moral or non-criminal.
You evidently believe that all speculators are divine and pious. So, none descend into market manipultion and fraud, if Bush says "Have fun, boys."
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 6:01 PM
From: United States, Texas
401Ks and pensions of workers are not major participants the speculative orgy.
Often retirement funds are subject to tighter restrictions on risks. Failure to observe the restrictions invite lawsuits against imprudent administrators.
401ks and pensions prefer investment grade corporate bonds, trible A equities, money market funds, munis, CDs, Treasuries, MBSs, and other things, at least, once perceived to be less risky than speculative activity.
By ballooning the overhead and debt of companies and entities in which most the 401Ks and worker pension funds are invested, these oil speculators are looting the workers because the value of the shares, bonds, certificates, etc. in the 401Ks and the pensions shrink with the decline of net assets and net income of the companies and entities as a result, in part, of the relentless attacks of higher and higher fuel prices.
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 9:33 PM
From: United States, Texas
THIS IS A BIG DEAL
OOOO
http://www.abn.info.ve/go_news5.php?articulo=140873&lee=17p. 1 of 2
14/07/2008
Maracaibo, Zulia
Maracaibo, Jul 13. ABN.- This Sunday the President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez Frías, proposed to modify the percentage of oil financing in the framework of the cooperation agreement Petrocaribe in order to reduce the impact of oil prices increase in member countries' economies.
During the V Extraordinary Summit of Petrocaribe, carried out in Maracaibo, Zulia State (Venezuela's northwest), Chávez said it was necessary to make an adjustment on the percentages fixed in the foundational agreement.
Venezuela's President reminded that “when Petrocaribe was born, the oil price was 50 dollars a barrel; therefore, it was agreed that when the oil price reached 100 dollars it would be financed 50 per cent [credit portion], in a long term, and the remaining 50 per cent [the cash portion] would be payed in 90 days.”
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 9:39 PM
From: United States, Texas
THIS IS A BIG DEAL
p. 2 or 2
In this regard, Chávez explained that due to the sustained oil price increases, it was agreed [!!!!] that Petrocaribe financing would be 40% to be payed in 90 days and 60% financed in a 25 years term.
However, Chávez considers that the price of an oil barrel will reach soon 200 dollars, so that he proposed to modify the percentages to 30% and 70%, respectively. [Wow, Wow, Wow]
“This is an urgent issue. I would like everyone considers to change the percentages, so we change them right away and the mechanism could start working since this same day”, he added.
During the discussion about the oil price increases, which was one of the main issues dealt with in this Summit, Chávez pointed out that the increase is due to the North American economic model that is based on high levels [degenerately wasteful] of energy consumption.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Hooray nutty hugo is giving away the store.....hurry up and load up your wheelbarrow before the Rube Hayseed catches on or the citizens of Venezuela throw him out for spending their money
Written by: Belial, 14 Jul 2008 10:08 PM
From: United States, Texas
GC is one of those slimy bourgeois philistines who CAN'T imagine anyone doing something legal or moral.
If Hugo, for example, were speculatively looting people into destitution like today's oil speculators, GC would extol Hugo's legality, morality, piety, and divinity to the high heavens.
Written by: Lautaro, 14 Jul 2008 10:37 PM
From: Brazil
anthonyC said: "See what I mean. They cannot answer or contest my statements so they change the subject. Lautaro even uesed the age olf tried and and true "slavery" gambit."
I was just using that analogy to make you understand that the fact that just because an economic act might be sanctioned by the law doesn't mean that this would make it automatically ethical by philosophic standards. Haven't you stopped for one minute and asked yourself how many people will become homeless, die from hunger or disease due to the consequences of your speculations?
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 10:44 PM
From: United States
"Haven't you stopped for one minute and asked yourself how many people will become homeless, die from hunger or disease due to the consequences of your speculations?"
Are you serious? I'll give you an answer.....NONE!!!!!
As for the Morality of Speculation......You are a speculator. Have you ever purchased anything with the expectation that it will go up in price? I know you have! Welcome to the club!!!
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 10:48 PM
From: United States
"You evidently believe that all speculators are divine and pious. So, none descend into market manipultion and fraud,"
Belail,
I will type slow so maybe you will understand.
Show me where there have been widespread fraud in recent Oil Speculation. Don't give me your opinion. Show me facts!!!
Written by: anthonyC, 14 Jul 2008 10:50 PM
From: United States
"However, Chávez considers that the price of an oil barrel will reach soon 200 dollars"
So who is trying to manipulate the Oil Market now???
From: United States
anthonyc, can you kindly enlighten me as to the indivisible nexus between speculation and fraud?better yet, do you understand the concept of fraud, as it is regarded in the law?
Written by: anthonyC, 15 Jul 2008 1:01 PM
From: United States
"anthonyc, can you kindly enlighten me as to the indivisible nexus between speculation and fraud?better yet, do you understand the concept of fraud, as it is regarded in the law?"
There is none. It is Belail who keeps on calling it fraud.
Written by: Belial, 15 Jul 2008 1:46 PM
From: United States, Texas
This is a good discussion. The general question is the nature of fraud and its application to financial markets, especially the oil market. The specific question is whether speculation is or can be an element of fraund in the oil market.
Tough questions.
Technically, fraud is:
(1) a lie about a fact or a concealment of a fact which materially effects the outcome (s) of an act.
(2) a sucker is urge to perform the act or, relying on the lies and concealment, the sucker performs an act with the expectation that the play or gaming or business isn't fixed, but free.
(3) the sucker, of course, loses
OR
(1) "Hey, Mister, you want to buy a watch. These are the real things, not fakes. You can have for $30.
(2) Mister buys the fake.
(3) Mister has been had.
Market manipulation is the same thing as a hustler selling fake watches on the street. The securties or commodities hustler fixes the outcome of a bet. Then he or you or both bets. He wins and you lose.
Written by: Belial, 15 Jul 2008 1:56 PM
From: United States, Texas
There is more than a presupposition of a fair or free market in which to bet. Their is a solemn bourgeois promise of a free maket, not a fixed market, in which to bet.
Market manipulation is an attempt to set prices -- or other important criteria of market performance, such as volume traded -- by entering into transactions or combinations for the specific purpose of such manipulation.
Speculators fix or manipulate the market so it will go up. Then speculator bets that the market will go up. Of course, the speculators win.
This is fraud.
Legal speculation happens when a speculator bets the price of something will go up or down without fixing or manipulating the market to go up or down. The speculator then assumes a risk like everybody else who bets and plays on level field.
Reactionaries say there is no difference between legal and illegal speculation or between fraud and just transactions. If the thief can get away with it, it's legal, moral, divine, and pious.
Written by: Belial, 15 Jul 2008 2:17 PM
From: United States, Texas
In most capitalist markets, there is rarely an exact correspondence between supply and demand.
Demand zig zags above or at or below supply.
These zig zags of demand around supply generally happen within fairly stable limits or change somewhat orderly.
When demand soars to the extreme above supply, there is either some precipitating emergency or manipulators are fixing either demand or supply or both and speculating on their fix.
In commodities, demand may commonly zig zag with fairly stable limits of about 50% above or below supply. When demand goes outside of the 50%, something is going down.
Today, demand for oil is 1000% above supply. Not 50%, but 1000%. The upward pressure on barrel price is irresistible.
Supply is about 83 million barrels and this is all what industrial, agricultural, commercial and personal consumers at the market for.
Speculators in the markets are asking 1.3 billions barrels, not the 83 million barrels the oil consumers need.
From: United States
So now is speculation, what will it be next week or next month. This is not about the changing markets, whether is accepted or not the rise of petroleum is controlled by the U.S. and it has done so in order to deal with two major concerned. (1) the war in Irak and (2) the rise of the EURO. The rise of oil has halted the rise of the EURO and the revenues as well as taxes on oil has nourished the U.S. treasury. They had not published as yet all of the money that so far they had made as well as the corporations -- such as shell and so on. For Venezuela, they are also making a lot of money and capitalizing on the present situation. People are let to think that Chaves is giving it away, but instead his locking many countries into long termed debts that will keep on increasing cause they will keep on needing the oil. Its no bargain ---- but keep on blaming the market of supply and demands -------- or econimics theories -----
Written by: Belial, 15 Jul 2008 11:18 PM
From: United States, Texas
TERMS
P. 1 of 2
"For Venezuela, they are also making a lot of money and capitalizing on the present situation. People are let to think that Chaves is giving it away, but instead his locking many countries into long termed debts that will keep on increasing cause they will keep on needing the oil. Its no bargain," hectorvargas says.
oooo
FIRST, Petrocaribe members paid only 50% cash up front in 90 days when a barrel was over $100.
SECOND, Perocaribe extended credit for the other 50% at 1% interest over 25 years.
"But Holy Nazarene ... Oh God of the Zionists, that's still debt. Ain't it?"
Yes, it's still debt. But compare it to imperialist terms at interest rates between 12% to18% over 10 years. {Are you so stupid, you can't tell which is the better deal?]
Why don't you snivel once about imperialist terms? [ I ain't gonna talk about my masters.]
THIRD, NOW it's only 40% up front in cash and 60% on credit at 1% over 25 years while a barrel is over $100.
Written by: anthonyC, 15 Jul 2008 11:23 PM
From: United States
In a dramatic move yesterday President Bush removed the executive-branch moratorium on offshore drilling. Today, at a news conference, Bush repeated his new position, and slammed the Democratic Congress for not removing the congressional moratorium on the Outer Continental Shelf and elsewhere. Crude-oil futures for August delivery plunged $9.26, or 6.3 percent, almost immediately as Bush was speaking, bringing the barrel price down to $136.
Written by: Belial, 15 Jul 2008 11:36 PM
From: United States, Texas
TERMS
P. 2 of 2
Look, if any dunmbass Caribbean country wants to pay the US imperialists' interest rates on the credit portion of its oil purchases between 12% to18% rather Petrocaribe's 1%, there is absolutely nothing to stop them.
The dumbass can choose the larger debt burden.
I know two dumbass Caribbean countries that prefer the imperialist 12% to18% over Petrocaribe's 1%.
Evidently, you're too stupid to see the difference between "12% to18%" and 1%.
PLUS!
Petrocaribe members don't have to pay the credit portion back in cash.
[US imperialists demand that all oil transactions be conducted in US dollars.]
Petrocaribe can pay the credit portion to Venezuela in goods and services -- sugar, bananas, medical or tourist services, and so on and so forth.
Hectorvargas, if you want a hand-out, why don't you ask your beloved US imperialist for free oil.
After all, you grovel and grin in front of them like a slave.
Written by: Belial, 15 Jul 2008 11:42 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Crude-oil futures for August delivery plunged $9.26, or 6.3 percent, almost immediately as Bush was speaking, bringing the barrel price down to $136. "
oooo
Momentary and transitory relief from the activities of the oil speculators who will likely make up ... and more ... for today's "plunge" in less than a week.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
From: United States, New York City
Belial explain the difference in speculators making the obvious call around oil and central planners doing so? Also explain how you get that $60 of each barrel is the speculator's premium.
Hating greed is one thing, but those of you blaming speculators for current events have not shown either a) what the manipulation of markets has been?? b) that the facts underlying the speculator's decisions are wrong. Just because you correctly call these people greedy doesn't mean they aren't acting rationally in face of the following facts:
the value of the US dollar has fallen, and continues to fall, so dollar denominated oil prices must rise
demand really has increased, and will continue to increase so oil prices must rise
supplies really are declining, and rate of decline will accelerate, so oil prices must rise
From: United States, New York City
You guys may be right about their greed, but none of you are presenting solutions to these economic circumstances. Ending the speculation doesn't address the issue, and may not even reduce the price of oil significantly, but it WILL delay the outcomes of reality onto our children. The actions of the speculators and the effect on our nations are forcing changes that must come about in any case. Either we do these things or our children do these things. Speculation is the capitalist mechanism to force the decisions into today. Absent speculators these changes to our societies would be forced on us down the line at any rate, by panicky government in an even more SHOCK treatment manner. Actually, forced on our children....
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Belial is just looking for chaos and revolution he has no better answer....He hopes that when things are rearranged that someone will put him in charge of something...I think not he will be one of the first to be lined up against the wall ....Fire when ready Gridley
From: United States, New York City
Here is an article you should all consider before continuing support of this faux/FOX crusade against oil speculators. Dissent mag isn't exactly the Wall Street Journal so I hope even Belial can deign to consider teir explanation of what a fraud this latest distraction is, especially for a small nation like DR with no leverage or power whatsoever over the speculators.
http://dissentmag.wordpress.com/2....planation-framing-the-oil-crisis/Written by: anthonyC, 16 Jul 2008 11:46 AM
From: United States
Manhattanite,
Dissent magazine?
Are you for real? Do you really expect us to believe anything from the Conspiracy/Anti-American rag?
From: United States
hey, anthonyc; managed to find Trinidad on the map yet? you know, the Trinidad which has oil?
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
From: United States, New York City
anthonyC I don't expect anything from you at all. I only hope most people read before they react and see that article condemns the anti-speculator campaign. Are you saying the article is conspiracist and anti-American for defending the speculators against these charges? Wouldn't that put you in their camp as you are also defending speculators? On the other hand your agitation, pompous righteousness, and partisan talking points only make Belial's take on the situation look good. I've posted that leftist article to show others that this is a case where the market system is working as it should and forcing us to reform an unsustainable situation...even from the left viewpoint .
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Manhattan I fully agree and only hope we find something soon that balances the market system soon before we all get dragged under ....Which is exactly what belial and others want thinking they are going to be better off in the reshuffle....They are the barbarians wanting the walls to collapse
Written by: anthonyC, 16 Jul 2008 9:05 PM
From: United States
"anthonyC I don't expect anything from you at all. I only hope most people read before they react and see that article condemns the anti-speculator campaign"
I am saying that it is not a reputable source of information whether I agree with it or not.
I want unlimited speed limits on highways that doesn't mean the Nazis were good guys.
Written by: anthonyC, 16 Jul 2008 9:30 PM
From: United States
Should be interesting tomorrow. With the past 2 days showing massive drops in the price of crude I expect a jump up in the price with short sellers cashing in their profits.
Of course if you are Belail that means massive fraud by Zionists, Cubans from Miami and Republicans.
Written by: Belial, 16 Jul 2008 9:46 PM
From: United States, Texas
"With the past 2 days showing massive drops in the price of crude I expect a jump up in the price with short sellers cashing in their profits," anthonyC celebrates.
oooo
In trading jargon, short sellers are traders who bet the price will fall rather than rise.
They have had a couple of rare good days.
The two good days for the short traders pose the question whether the drops, today and yesterday, are a downside drawback from a continuing upside trend or the major reversal of an upside trend.
Only a few sanguine crackpots believe that this is a major reversal of an upside trend.
But few, if any, know the magnitude of the downside drawback.
Written by: Belial, 16 Jul 2008 10:07 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Belial explain the difference in speculators making the obvious call around oil and central planners doing so? Also explain how you get that $60 of each barrel is the speculator's premium."
oooo
"difference in speculators making the obvious call around oil and central planners doing so?"
In a socialist market, they don't call, they designate, free of lies about a so-called "free market."
In a capitalist market , they don't plan centrally, they call or bet in either a manipulated market or one of their so-called "free markets"
oooo
"Also explain how you get that $60 of each barrel is the speculator's premium."
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2008/0502.htmlFundamental and technical analysis, multi-variate analysis, stochastic models, and other modeling.
Written by: Belial, 16 Jul 2008 10:11 PM
From: United States, Texas
"You guys may be right about their greed, but none of you are presenting solutions to these economic circumstances. Ending the speculation doesn't address the issue, and may not even reduce the price of oil significantly, but it WILL delay the outcomes of reality onto our children. The actions of the speculators and the effect on our nations are forcing changes that must come about in any case. Either we do these things or our children do these things. Speculation is the capitalist mechanism to force the decisions into today. Absent speculators these changes to our societies would be forced on us down the line at any rate, by panicky government in an even more SHOCK treatment manner. Actually, forced on our children...."
oooo
Defeatism.
Capitulationism.
Speculators have no right to rape you.
Written by: anthonyC, 16 Jul 2008 10:13 PM
From: United States
"The two good days for the short traders pose the question whether the drops, today and yesterday, are a downside drawback from a continuing upside trend or the major reversal of an upside trend.
Only a few sanguine crackpots believe that this is a major reversal of an upside trend."
Considering that I play the game instead of complaining about it I am one of those "crackpots" who believe the upward trend is over.
Expect a few more spikes over the summer but the Oil play has pretty much shot its wad. By 2010 expect oil to settle in the $80-$90 range.
BTW As soon as President Bush announced his executive order removeing restrictions on offshore drilling I shorted Oil. HEHEHEHE!!!
The Steak at Morton's was sooooooooo good.
From: United States, New York City
Crude prices were down and my guess is money was taken off the table there and moved back into the stock market. The gov more or less reassured us they would back up Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, as they should and have always implicitly promised they would...so for the moment bolstered a lot of shares in the sector. Also, there was economic data in the last few days suggesting even more real economic slowdown (vs financial shenanigans)...and thus prob less actual day-to-day demand for oil in the very near term. So again we see the futures market is operating rationally as I see it. A real economic slowdown being the case means it is possible that the real price of oil does give back for the next few months. Unfortunately the drop in real price will be negated as long as the value of dollars is dropping faster.
From: United States, New York City
From: United States, New York City
anthonyC to me the arguments made by an author and whether they match up with the available facts matters more than whether the URL is dissentmag.org or Time.com . I don't know if you trade based on price technicals or if you do read the economic info, however if you do trade based on info I'd suggest to you an occasional swing through the far left sources can be informative. Ideologues may be misled about plenty, but a lot of Marxists (and also libertarian) types do know how to read an economy clearly. It's good to see how things look from outside of the mainstream or banking press. Here is a really sharp analyst off-the-beaten path, but don't bother if you only take knowledge from authority:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/Henry.htmlWritten by: Belial, 16 Jul 2008 10:51 PM
From: United States, Texas
"back up Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae ..."
oooo
Freddie and Fannie are broke.
The bourgeois state under Bush will not allow them to fall at this time because they will bring down the whole financial system of US capitalism.
OK, they're proped up.
But they are still dead.
IndyMac is broke but it is proped up by the bourgeois state, but it is still dead. The depositors under a 100 large won't lose a penny, not because Indy can return their money, but because the bourgeois state makes good on Indy's failed and broken promise to return their money.
So an implied subsidy or guarantee from the bourgeois state is the ground for the confidence in US capitalist financial institutions.
But consider.
The bourgeois state is the USA is more broke that indy, Fannie, Freddie, and Bear ... combined.
It "backs up" capitalist financial institutions because it borrows from Asians and has a never-resting printing press.
The national debt [US bonds] is $10 trillion.
Written by: Belial, 16 Jul 2008 11:23 PM
From: United States, Texas
I'm the bourgeois state in the USA and as everybody knows I've been broke for some time, but I still have credit and I can borrow money and fall deeper in debt, because I like to shoot people.
People lend to me rather than get shot.
Now, you see this guy over here ... yeah, him ... he's broke too. But if you do business with him, I'll guarantee you won't lose a dime. I'll borrow or print the money to pay you off if he can't deliver.
From: United States, New York City
IndyMac isn't being propped up, it has failed spectacularly and in appropriate manner was allowed to sink. If you are an investor or a large depositor you took a bath, and rightfully so for failing to watch the institution with whom you were doing business. Small depositors get their money back not because of anything sinister as Belial implies but because they pay insurance premiums on their deposits for this very eventuality. Belial if you ever visit a bank notice the shiny FDIC stickers at the door...protecting the small depositors is a worthy and planned social protection. Should the plumber with $30,000 life savings lose his money for being an evil 'bourgeois'?
From: United States, New York City
As for Freddie and Fannie they also serve a worthy social purpose. They grease the wheels so that many a diligent American, with some hard work, can move their family towards the direction of Belial's hated 'bourgeois'. It has been for decades a fine experiment , and there is no reason not to continue it, especially now that the children of Dominican and other LatAm immigrants are the ones in line for mortgages. The GSEs are a great example of social capitalism.
No one held any guns to China's head to lend us money. No question we are addicted to debt as we are to oil. But as with the speculation we were originally discussing, the market mechanics of the current credit crunch and sub-prime crises will return bankers and citizens to more diligent levels of credit.
From: United States, New York City
Belial is a sharp critic when he points out whose interests are at stake, but hasn't shown how a different system would handle these issues in better form. Deposit insurance, gov sponsored mortgage banks, speculators speeding up the inevitable, and the gov allowing bad banks to fail ...there have been errors lately but these have all been acceptable mechanisms in our society to correct the excesses of recent history.
Written by: Belial, 17 Jul 2008 9:41 AM
From: United States, Texas
"IndyMac isn't being propped up, it has failed spectacularly and in appropriate manner was allowed to sink. If you are an investor or a large depositor you took a bath, and rightfully so for failing to watch the institution with whom you were doing business. Small depositors get their money back not because of anything sinister as Belial implies but because they pay insurance premiums on their deposits for this very eventuality. Belial if you ever visit a bank notice the shiny FDIC stickers at the door...protecting the small depositors is a worthy and planned social protection. Should the plumber with $30,000 life savings lose his money for being an evil 'bourgeois'?" Manhattanite reassures more than Bernanake yesterday.
oooo
Are there just a few bad apples in the barrel or is the barrel bad?
Does it make any difference?
Can FDIC guanrantee a bad barrel?
Written by: Belial, 17 Jul 2008 9:47 AM
From: United States, Texas
"As for Freddie and Fannie they also serve a worthy social purpose. They grease the wheels so that many a diligent American, with some hard work, can move their family towards the direction of Belial's hated 'bourgeois'. It has been for decades a fine experiment , and there is no reason not to continue it, especially now that the children of Dominican and other LatAm immigrants are the ones in line for mortgages. The GSEs are a great example of social capitalism."
0000
This suggests the barrel is bad -- investments banks, commercial banks, mortgage lenders, etc.
Written by: Belial, 17 Jul 2008 9:50 AM
From: United States, Texas
"Belial is a sharp critic when he points out whose interests are at stake, but hasn't shown how a different system would handle these issues in better form. Deposit insurance, gov sponsored mortgage banks, speculators speeding up the inevitable, and the gov allowing bad banks to fail ...there have been errors lately but these have all been acceptable mechanisms in our society to correct the excesses of recent history."
oooo
Is the state correcting excesses or just puting a lid on a bad barrel?
From: United States, New York City
Is the barrel bad? I came to work this morning and on the way I see buildings going up, delis selling breakfast, trucks shipping goods, vendors selling fruit and hot dogs, etc... people are still paying bills, and I'm sure people are still borrowing/lending money. Some banks will rightfully disappear as the economy contracts, but it is a stretch to imagine they will all collapse while there is still plenty of REAL economic activity outside the world of finance. Yes that is always a good question to ask rhetorically Belial, but what is your point? Who loses if the FDIC fails? Who loses if Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae fail? No question there are critiques and abuses to point out, but in your posts you repeatedly condemn the entirety of the system on your principles and to hell with the real people ('bourgeois' and otherwise) involved. Why not distinguish the effective from the abusive? How in the hell is it a bad barrel to promote mass home ownership via the GSEs?
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Jul 2008 10:55 AM
From: Brazil
It looks like capitalism and free markets have finally found a worthy champion on this forum in you, Manhattanite, because its other defenders only limit themselves to responding with stupidities like: "Communism had never worked" or "Capitalism is the best system", etc.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
only dummies like you need an explanation ...everyone else just uses common sense....and I use the word dummy with true affection
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Dont worry the Socialist Professor of Economics Dr Dreadlox will be along soon ...He is conferring with Comrade Bob as we speak ...His economic plan is doing quite well over there
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Jul 2008 11:17 AM
From: Brazil
Oh you mean like "how to create economic refugees 101", GC? LOL
Seriously though , you should be asking rom1804 about how things are going on with comrade Bob, even though he swears that comrade Bob is a better leader than Lionel, mind you.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
wow where could his head be?
From: United States, New York City
Lautaro thanks for the compliment but let me clear up I'm no doctrinaire free-marketeer. They believe in "invisible" hands and "efficient" markets, and they believe these things with undue conviction and prideful righteousness. Unfortunately that dogmatism is often as mislead and dangerous as Belial's kind on the other end of the spectrum. Time after time history has repeatedly shown us this: mixed economies rise to the top. Markets are great, but they do not exist in vacuums. Prudent regulation and occasional careful interference are necessary to maintain both liberty for individuals and solidarity between all sectors.
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Jul 2008 11:28 AM
From: Brazil
You dind't need to remind me of it, my friend. From what I have read from your posts I have seen clearly that you're a free thinker first and foremost, it's just that it's amazing to finally see Belial's posts being debunked point by point like it should be done, not by empty answers like the ones I mentioned above.
From: United States
and amid the chaos emanating from the arid minds of the likes of anthonyc, manhattanhite rolls in like a zephyr of reason, proving once again that light is better than heat when it comes to academic inquiry. are you watching how it is done, Goulet?
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Quit sucking up to Tonyc yesterday you were calling him a moron....all right academic inquiry is it ?
From: United States
Goulet, in your mad and senile rush to make a posting, you did not even read my response. or maybe the new hospice help that reads for you has problems with comprehension. i was commending manhattanite for his erudite postings. anthonyc remains an incorrigible dunce, in my way of thinking.
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
My apologies ...I am so accustomed to your Uriah Heep obsequious behavior I misinterpreted this one for more of the same
From: United States
i will accept your apology just so long as you expunge the word "humble".
From: Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda..Coto Doñana
Done Uriah
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This should distract from his own fiscal financial mess with the metro not runnning and all the subsidies.
If you and your cronies were not focused on raping your own people you could have your own money maker. Quit being a lazy ass.
1) Sugarcane to Ethanol.
2) Grow Jatropha for Biodiesel
3) Wind power… You have plenty.
4) Solar power… You have plenty
5) Ocean power… You have plenty.
You are just a lazy SOB, you feel the reset of the world owes you. Grow up.
You sound like a big baby.
p.1 of 3
Speculators -- investment banks, hedge funds, some commercial banks, oil companies, some mutual funds and super-rich individual players -- produce the oil crisis by extreme manipulation of the demand for oil to 10 to 15 times the real demand. The real demand is about 83 million barrels per day. Speculators summit market orders at largely unregulated petroleum exchanges in NYC and London for between 800,000,000 to 1,300,000,000 barrels per day. So, the price of a barrel soars fraudulently.
Speculators mostly, but not exclusively, belong to a financial element of the imperialist segment of the US and UK bourgeoisie.
So, if speculators produce the oil crisis, imperialism, by extension, produces the oil crisis.
The reactionary or conservative wing of the bourgeoisie is notorious for buck-passing. So, speculators and their imperialist allies pass the buck for the oil crisis.
p. 2 of 3
LF keeps pointing his finger at the speculators, negating and discrediting their deceitful buck-passing and their lying denials of responsibility for the oil crisis which enriches this imperialist trash by 100s of millions of dollars PER year.
LF's finger-pointing is a demand for action against the imperialist speculators by the bourgeois US regime under Bush or by countries and industries hurt by the oil crisis or by both.
Bush and McCain in the USA and Brown in the UK wallow in the same pool of scum as the speculators. These three vicious imperialist dogs are protecting the speculators from legislative and regulatory action that will curb their exploitation and the fraud they inflict on the world.
Since LF began his finger-pointing US Democratic presidential nominee Obama has come out against the speculators and major US airlines have also come out against the speculators in a collective letter to all members of the US Congress.
p. 2 of 3
Both Obama and the major US airlines knew the imperialist speculators cause the oil crisis before LF pointed his finger at the speculators. But neither had the guts to stand up against the imperialist trash willfully generating the oil crisis before LF did.
Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez and others on the Left pointed fingers at the speculators before LF. But the bourgeois regimes of rich capitalist countries, the powerful capitalist media, and brainwashed masses of rich capitalist countries, where the speculation occurs, laughed at the leftist finger-pointing.
But the finger-pointing of LF has more accusatory power or influence than that of the Leftists, but LF has yet to win a full-blown media breakout.
You SFBs. It’s the Futures market.
Airline have invested (bought futures, because they are smart) in oil futures to keep their costs lower. Some Airlines are in the next decade at $50 a barrel.
I am sure most Airlines would fail if they had to pay full price.
LF is a lazy SOB. He knows this is how it works.
oooo
One ... namely, the pilferings of the Dominican bourgeoisie and middle class within and outside of the state ... is like a common cold with a bad cough.
The other one ... namely, the imperialist speculators looting the whole world in commodities scam ... is like the pestilence of AIDS, with about 50,000,000 people infected and about 6,000,000 dying quietly from the pestilence every year while the rich capitalist countries stockpile medications that the capitalist drug companies produce with hi-tech methods for about 25 cents a dose and sell to impoverished capitalist countries for between $11,000 and $15,000 a year.
One is a firecracker and the other is an atom bomb.
I don't disregard the danger of firecrackers, but neither do I equate their lethality with that of an atom bomb.
oooo
GC has to be demented because he avidly supports the oil speculators and none of them give him even the smallest cut of the loot.
oooo
"SFBs," huh.
What a foul temper you have.
It's not the futures market, you fool.
Oil speculation takes place in the futures market, but this market is not the cause of the speculation.
The futures market functioned for decades without extreme speculation in oil contracts. If this market were the cause of rampant speculation, then runaway speculation would have occurred during these decades when the market operated with considerably less speculation.
You sound like another buck-passing GOP blockhead.
Demand for commodities always fluctuates either at or above or below supply and thereby fixes the price of the commodity. Sometime demand is 20% or 30% or even 50% above or below supply. But never before, has demand reached 1000% in excess of supply.
This is not the market, but a thief in the market.
Dreadlocks,
So untrue. When confronted with the facts Belail is a typical lefty who changes the subject.
Here is a fact.
Anybody who knows even the most basic of economic principles knows that speculators just look at the symptoms and act accordingly to gain profits. It is these profits that drive the world’s economy and technology.
I know this well as I am a speculator. I look for instances where demand will outstrip supply. My profits are then re-invested. This re-investment provides jobs, creates new technologies and saves lives.
What have you done today?
"Anybody who knows even the most basic of economic principles knows that speculators just look at the symptoms and act accordingly to gain profits. It is these profits that drive the world’s economy and technology," anthonyC rolls out his hare-brained economic notions.
oooo
There isn't a word of truth or one fact in what you wrote.
Securities and commodities fraud are not among "the most basic of economic principles."
Speculators deceptively manipulate "symptoms," not look at them.
Thieves don't gain profit, they take loot.
This loot doesn't " drive the world’s economy and technology," this looting destroys it.
Where have I changed the subject?
oooo
Safely on the sideline, GC urges a fight until Tony takes the last blow "Go Tony Go!"
oooo
Don't fight Mexicans.
Securities and commodities fraud are not among "the most basic of economic principles."
Where have I changed the subject?
Right there!
Who said anything about fraud? Can you site massive fraud? Did i say Fraud? Speculation is a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce. Everybody does it. Including you.
Do you guys even know what Speculating is?
oooo
It's fraud, but the authorities neither enforce the law of fraud against the speculators nor tighten the law against speculators.
The speculators are above the law.
But it's still fraud.
Market manipulation in securities and commodities is pretty much the same kind of fraud.
Market manipulation is an attempt to set prices -- or other important criteria of market performance, such as volume traded -- by entering into transactions or combinations for the specific purpose of such manipulation.
This is exactly what the oil speculators are doing and getting away with it because of the rotten GOP regime under Bush is lawless.
Bush, for example, has attached signing statements to over 2000 US laws, stating that he will not enforce them unless he wants to. He often doesn't want to.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slavery was a perfectly legal and moral form of commerce, but that trait didn't make it any less evil. Although I'd wager that speculation have even more potential for provoking widespread destruction than slavery would ever have.
Either there is or isn't a general prohibition against fraud in the purchase and sell of commodities, including oil.
If there isn't, then speculation isn't fraud.
If there is a general prohibition, then, the GOPs argue, market manipulation isn't fraud under the general prohibition. In other words, fraud in financial markets may be generally prohibited, but market manipulation is not a specie of fraud.
Then there is the more subtle trick in the argument of GOP thieves in favor of oil speculation.
OK, they concede, even a fool knows that market manipulation is fraud.
But the GOPs dispute that speculation is market manipulation because speculation and investment are intrinsically what markets exist for.
The answer to this deceit is there are fraudulent forms of speculation, just as there are fraudulent forms of investment.
Oil speculation now is the fraudulent speculation.
oooo
That's not an analogy. That is the immediate case itself.
We're being enslaved by a bunch of commodities thieves.
These thieves decide who has or doesn't have access to energy.
"Bush, for example, has attached signing statements to over 2000 US laws, stating that he will not enforce them unless he wants to. He often doesn't want to."
See what I mean.
They cannot answer or contest my statements so they change the subject. Lautaro even uesed the age olf tried and and true "slavery" gambit.
Still not one of them can tell me that they even know what speculation is.
Belail is the worse because he states he is for the "workers" yet he fails to grasp that a huge percentage of "workers" have their pension plans in funds that invest heavily is speculation. But what the hell! As long as he feels goo
0000
Assume "They" are the oil specualtors.
"its the old supply and demand routine," GC asserts.
Right.
"They [there's the "they"] have the supply and they can demand whatever they want," GC also asserts.
Wrong.
"They" have the demand which they fraudulent exaggerate and misrepresent until it is sometimes 15 times the real demand. It is this phony paper demand that bears not the least correspondence with the real demand of about 83,000,000 barrels a day that speculatively drives up the price of a barrel. This is demand-side.
0000
You argue that speculation is legal.
I point out that Bush doesn't enforce the law unless he wants to and he said it in writing over 2000 times.
How can you judge "speculation" legal when the laws on market manipulation and fraud aren't enforced by Bush.
This is no change of subject by me.
You can't follow the logic of the argument and counter arguments as the discourse develops and deepens.
oooo
The workers invests -- that is, put money where they expect net income and/or net asset growth.
With more risk, workers also speculate -- that is, they put their money where they expect price changes in mere trading instruments -- options, futures, shares, currencies.
LF is not against legal speculation. LF strongly solicits investors and speculators among capitalists but he doean't knowingly solicit them if they are market manipulators and frauds.
LF says just because a transaction is speculative doesn't mean that it is legal or moral or non-criminal.
You evidently believe that all speculators are divine and pious. So, none descend into market manipultion and fraud, if Bush says "Have fun, boys."
Often retirement funds are subject to tighter restrictions on risks. Failure to observe the restrictions invite lawsuits against imprudent administrators.
401ks and pensions prefer investment grade corporate bonds, trible A equities, money market funds, munis, CDs, Treasuries, MBSs, and other things, at least, once perceived to be less risky than speculative activity.
By ballooning the overhead and debt of companies and entities in which most the 401Ks and worker pension funds are invested, these oil speculators are looting the workers because the value of the shares, bonds, certificates, etc. in the 401Ks and the pensions shrink with the decline of net assets and net income of the companies and entities as a result, in part, of the relentless attacks of higher and higher fuel prices.
OOOO
http://www.abn.info.ve/go_news5.php?articulo=140873&lee=17
p. 1 of 2
14/07/2008
Maracaibo, Zulia
Maracaibo, Jul 13. ABN.- This Sunday the President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez Frías, proposed to modify the percentage of oil financing in the framework of the cooperation agreement Petrocaribe in order to reduce the impact of oil prices increase in member countries' economies.
During the V Extraordinary Summit of Petrocaribe, carried out in Maracaibo, Zulia State (Venezuela's northwest), Chávez said it was necessary to make an adjustment on the percentages fixed in the foundational agreement.
Venezuela's President reminded that “when Petrocaribe was born, the oil price was 50 dollars a barrel; therefore, it was agreed that when the oil price reached 100 dollars it would be financed 50 per cent [credit portion], in a long term, and the remaining 50 per cent [the cash portion] would be payed in 90 days.”
p. 2 or 2
In this regard, Chávez explained that due to the sustained oil price increases, it was agreed [!!!!] that Petrocaribe financing would be 40% to be payed in 90 days and 60% financed in a 25 years term.
However, Chávez considers that the price of an oil barrel will reach soon 200 dollars, so that he proposed to modify the percentages to 30% and 70%, respectively. [Wow, Wow, Wow]
“This is an urgent issue. I would like everyone considers to change the percentages, so we change them right away and the mechanism could start working since this same day”, he added.
During the discussion about the oil price increases, which was one of the main issues dealt with in this Summit, Chávez pointed out that the increase is due to the North American economic model that is based on high levels [degenerately wasteful] of energy consumption.
If Hugo, for example, were speculatively looting people into destitution like today's oil speculators, GC would extol Hugo's legality, morality, piety, and divinity to the high heavens.
I was just using that analogy to make you understand that the fact that just because an economic act might be sanctioned by the law doesn't mean that this would make it automatically ethical by philosophic standards. Haven't you stopped for one minute and asked yourself how many people will become homeless, die from hunger or disease due to the consequences of your speculations?
Are you serious? I'll give you an answer.....NONE!!!!!
As for the Morality of Speculation......You are a speculator. Have you ever purchased anything with the expectation that it will go up in price? I know you have! Welcome to the club!!!
Belail,
I will type slow so maybe you will understand.
Show me where there have been widespread fraud in recent Oil Speculation. Don't give me your opinion. Show me facts!!!
So who is trying to manipulate the Oil Market now???
There is none. It is Belail who keeps on calling it fraud.
Tough questions.
Technically, fraud is:
(1) a lie about a fact or a concealment of a fact which materially effects the outcome (s) of an act.
(2) a sucker is urge to perform the act or, relying on the lies and concealment, the sucker performs an act with the expectation that the play or gaming or business isn't fixed, but free.
(3) the sucker, of course, loses
OR
(1) "Hey, Mister, you want to buy a watch. These are the real things, not fakes. You can have for $30.
(2) Mister buys the fake.
(3) Mister has been had.
Market manipulation is the same thing as a hustler selling fake watches on the street. The securties or commodities hustler fixes the outcome of a bet. Then he or you or both bets. He wins and you lose.
Market manipulation is an attempt to set prices -- or other important criteria of market performance, such as volume traded -- by entering into transactions or combinations for the specific purpose of such manipulation.
Speculators fix or manipulate the market so it will go up. Then speculator bets that the market will go up. Of course, the speculators win.
This is fraud.
Legal speculation happens when a speculator bets the price of something will go up or down without fixing or manipulating the market to go up or down. The speculator then assumes a risk like everybody else who bets and plays on level field.
Reactionaries say there is no difference between legal and illegal speculation or between fraud and just transactions. If the thief can get away with it, it's legal, moral, divine, and pious.
Demand zig zags above or at or below supply.
These zig zags of demand around supply generally happen within fairly stable limits or change somewhat orderly.
When demand soars to the extreme above supply, there is either some precipitating emergency or manipulators are fixing either demand or supply or both and speculating on their fix.
In commodities, demand may commonly zig zag with fairly stable limits of about 50% above or below supply. When demand goes outside of the 50%, something is going down.
Today, demand for oil is 1000% above supply. Not 50%, but 1000%. The upward pressure on barrel price is irresistible.
Supply is about 83 million barrels and this is all what industrial, agricultural, commercial and personal consumers at the market for.
Speculators in the markets are asking 1.3 billions barrels, not the 83 million barrels the oil consumers need.
P. 1 of 2
"For Venezuela, they are also making a lot of money and capitalizing on the present situation. People are let to think that Chaves is giving it away, but instead his locking many countries into long termed debts that will keep on increasing cause they will keep on needing the oil. Its no bargain," hectorvargas says.
oooo
FIRST, Petrocaribe members paid only 50% cash up front in 90 days when a barrel was over $100.
SECOND, Perocaribe extended credit for the other 50% at 1% interest over 25 years.
"But Holy Nazarene ... Oh God of the Zionists, that's still debt. Ain't it?"
Yes, it's still debt. But compare it to imperialist terms at interest rates between 12% to18% over 10 years. {Are you so stupid, you can't tell which is the better deal?]
Why don't you snivel once about imperialist terms? [ I ain't gonna talk about my masters.]
THIRD, NOW it's only 40% up front in cash and 60% on credit at 1% over 25 years while a barrel is over $100.
P. 2 of 2
Look, if any dunmbass Caribbean country wants to pay the US imperialists' interest rates on the credit portion of its oil purchases between 12% to18% rather Petrocaribe's 1%, there is absolutely nothing to stop them.
The dumbass can choose the larger debt burden.
I know two dumbass Caribbean countries that prefer the imperialist 12% to18% over Petrocaribe's 1%.
Evidently, you're too stupid to see the difference between "12% to18%" and 1%.
PLUS!
Petrocaribe members don't have to pay the credit portion back in cash.
[US imperialists demand that all oil transactions be conducted in US dollars.]
Petrocaribe can pay the credit portion to Venezuela in goods and services -- sugar, bananas, medical or tourist services, and so on and so forth.
Hectorvargas, if you want a hand-out, why don't you ask your beloved US imperialist for free oil.
After all, you grovel and grin in front of them like a slave.
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Momentary and transitory relief from the activities of the oil speculators who will likely make up ... and more ... for today's "plunge" in less than a week.
Hating greed is one thing, but those of you blaming speculators for current events have not shown either a) what the manipulation of markets has been?? b) that the facts underlying the speculator's decisions are wrong. Just because you correctly call these people greedy doesn't mean they aren't acting rationally in face of the following facts:
the value of the US dollar has fallen, and continues to fall, so dollar denominated oil prices must rise
demand really has increased, and will continue to increase so oil prices must rise
supplies really are declining, and rate of decline will accelerate, so oil prices must rise
http://dissentmag.wordpress.com/2....planation-framing-the-oil-crisis/
Dissent magazine?
Are you for real? Do you really expect us to believe anything from the Conspiracy/Anti-American rag?
I am saying that it is not a reputable source of information whether I agree with it or not.
I want unlimited speed limits on highways that doesn't mean the Nazis were good guys.
Of course if you are Belail that means massive fraud by Zionists, Cubans from Miami and Republicans.
oooo
In trading jargon, short sellers are traders who bet the price will fall rather than rise.
They have had a couple of rare good days.
The two good days for the short traders pose the question whether the drops, today and yesterday, are a downside drawback from a continuing upside trend or the major reversal of an upside trend.
Only a few sanguine crackpots believe that this is a major reversal of an upside trend.
But few, if any, know the magnitude of the downside drawback.
oooo
"difference in speculators making the obvious call around oil and central planners doing so?"
In a socialist market, they don't call, they designate, free of lies about a so-called "free market."
In a capitalist market , they don't plan centrally, they call or bet in either a manipulated market or one of their so-called "free markets"
oooo
"Also explain how you get that $60 of each barrel is the speculator's premium."
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2008/0502.html
Fundamental and technical analysis, multi-variate analysis, stochastic models, and other modeling.
oooo
Defeatism.
Capitulationism.
Speculators have no right to rape you.
Only a few sanguine crackpots believe that this is a major reversal of an upside trend."
Considering that I play the game instead of complaining about it I am one of those "crackpots" who believe the upward trend is over.
Expect a few more spikes over the summer but the Oil play has pretty much shot its wad. By 2010 expect oil to settle in the $80-$90 range.
BTW As soon as President Bush announced his executive order removeing restrictions on offshore drilling I shorted Oil. HEHEHEHE!!!
The Steak at Morton's was sooooooooo good.
http://polizeros.com/2008/07/02/i....-are-driving-up-the-price-of-oil/
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/Henry.html
oooo
Freddie and Fannie are broke.
The bourgeois state under Bush will not allow them to fall at this time because they will bring down the whole financial system of US capitalism.
OK, they're proped up.
But they are still dead.
IndyMac is broke but it is proped up by the bourgeois state, but it is still dead. The depositors under a 100 large won't lose a penny, not because Indy can return their money, but because the bourgeois state makes good on Indy's failed and broken promise to return their money.
So an implied subsidy or guarantee from the bourgeois state is the ground for the confidence in US capitalist financial institutions.
But consider.
The bourgeois state is the USA is more broke that indy, Fannie, Freddie, and Bear ... combined.
It "backs up" capitalist financial institutions because it borrows from Asians and has a never-resting printing press.
The national debt [US bonds] is $10 trillion.
People lend to me rather than get shot.
Now, you see this guy over here ... yeah, him ... he's broke too. But if you do business with him, I'll guarantee you won't lose a dime. I'll borrow or print the money to pay you off if he can't deliver.
No one held any guns to China's head to lend us money. No question we are addicted to debt as we are to oil. But as with the speculation we were originally discussing, the market mechanics of the current credit crunch and sub-prime crises will return bankers and citizens to more diligent levels of credit.
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Are there just a few bad apples in the barrel or is the barrel bad?
Does it make any difference?
Can FDIC guanrantee a bad barrel?
0000
This suggests the barrel is bad -- investments banks, commercial banks, mortgage lenders, etc.
oooo
Is the state correcting excesses or just puting a lid on a bad barrel?
Seriously though , you should be asking rom1804 about how things are going on with comrade Bob, even though he swears that comrade Bob is a better leader than Lionel, mind you.