Written by: xwill7, 20 Oct 2009 9:48 AM
From: United States, Chicago
they should have been asking for documents when entering their country a long time ago
From: United States, New York City
"they should have been asking for documents when entering their country a long time ago"
Damn right.
Written by: vacanos, 20 Oct 2009 11:07 AM
From: United States
This is a blessing what just occurred. Haiti and the evil Jesuit acknowledge that every country should have an immigration law and should be respected. When we get a real president who will view FIRST the Dominican's interest and not trying to be an international hero at the expense of our country then this is how to attack them with their own word.
Now for the poor Dominican who cannot enjoy the fruit of their hard labor in this part of our country. Yes you got robbed this government will not do anything for you and will look at you guys with indifference. It is a sad reality. Now lives with it next time you see them invading your property you know what to do. We don't have a Trujillo with all his flaws and they were BIG, Dominicans people he took care in this aspect.
From: United States
How pathetic........How many Dominicans, impoverish or otherwise are running to Haiti to become illegal and undocumented residents?
Additionally, let me you tell something else, Haitians make the life a living hell for the "blancs" who attempt to do business in Haiti.
Written by: vacanos, 20 Oct 2009 11:18 AM
From: United States
guillermone
The dominican arrested went to haiti to get back their livestock stolen by haitian nationalist.
Written by: msjersey, 20 Oct 2009 11:44 AM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
You see people: "haitians laws are rigid" how come our are not. These people come into aur country to do whatever they want: raping tourist, stealing, etc, ect and we do not do anything to stop it.
LIO-NEL FDEZ HISTORY WILL JUDGE YOU VERY VERY HARD, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE HANDLE.
Written by: oupala07, 20 Oct 2009 1:20 PM
From: Canada
Stop the whining and the crying like little puppy dogs. I have told you time and time again that if you were serious about the illegal migrant trade, there's been a long time since the so called invasion by our national would have been contained. But you know very well that the special interest groups mostly from your agricultural and construction industry are shamelessly profiting from the misery of those poor dudes.
Now, it is the time to be serious and to fix things. Therefore, you can decide to join us in the border control effort or you can still keep delusionning yourself while continuing to trashing us.
Written by: StanEarl, 20 Oct 2009 1:28 PM
From: United States
Msjersey before you start pointed fingers, when did the Haitians rape any tourist I didn't see it in the paper, and why everything negative have to be Haitians. You speak as if Dominican are perfect. Just like it's been said in this forum " The law is the Law" and Haitian sure are not perfect but they trying to have some sort of control on their side I think ur Gov with all the resources on deck, should not just try but implement a more rigid tactic to control the crossing. However, it might not last for long because they need the cheap labor.
From: United States, New York, NY
Oh Boy, there goes Oupala again...
"so called invasion"?!!
The word "Invasion" ceased to describe the Haitian tidal wave ten years ago. This "border control effort" by the Haitians is nothing more than a response to the current merchant import/export dispute(s).
What worries me even more is that this could be a pretext to refuse future re-entry of the Haitian exodus if and when the DR tries to ship hundreds of thousands back.
I'm sure Oupala likes this, he doesn't want even a portion of the millions repatriated.
Written by: msjersey, 20 Oct 2009 1:57 PM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
stan, im not saying everything about haitians is negative, im just going by what i see. there was an article on listin diario that 5 of your compatriots raped 3 russian tourist and after they raped them they took all their belongings.
im not making things up. if i do something stupid here in the usa they gonna go after me, so i try to abide by the law my son.
the u.s. send 200 dominican back every month. these people got what they deserve.
we should be doing the same, but instead we let them cross the border we their pregnant women and their sick children to use our much needed health system. i've never heard of american opening the border for the mexican, have you?
Written by: oupala07, 20 Oct 2009 2:06 PM
From: Canada
Santana33,
Stop talking for nothing and focus instead on reality. What I meant in a broader fashion is if your governement wanted to be serious about border crossing, it should have not only enforced the immigration laws for the merchants, but for all individuals wishing to enter your territory.
If immigration laws were enforced like on the american/canadian border, there won't be any illegal migrant trade between the two countries.
As I said, because it suits some powerful lobby of special interest groups mostly in your agriculture and construction industry, your government prefers to turn its head instead of tackling the problem.
As for liking it, you must shake yourself up my friend because you are still sleeping. I've told you time and time again that if I was the Haitian President, I would have repatriated all my nationals as long as they can prove that they are Haitians, and then shut down the border tight with no bilateral economic and cultural exchange whatsoever.
From: United States, New York, NY
Oupala,
Then I stand corrected and apologize for not being aware of your new stance on the Haitian immigration issue (I say "new" because my dislike of you stems from other forum posts). Damn those Oupala imposters! I am glad to be wrong about you.
But can you elaborate on "... as long as they can prove they are Haitian".
Any future stance such as this smells to me like an attempt at appearing to do the right thing while masking the objective of forcing the DR to keep the millions of illegal Haitians that would not budge unless forcibly removed.
I don't think half the Haitians in Haiti can "prove" where they were born.
Written by: oupala07, 20 Oct 2009 5:00 PM
From: Canada
santana33
"I don't think half the Haitians in Haiti can "prove" where they were born."
If you were not stuck glued like an insect on a cameleon tongue with that kind of slurring metaphore, and if you had taken the time to read my posts the same way everyone else does, you would have understood long time ago my stance on the illegal migrants trade matter.
I am not going to waste my time with swollen head and ego people who think they can miss Haitians respect at will, but are always ready to take it in the butt or on the chin whenever the yankee throw any kind of humiliation at them. So I am going to answer your question for now, but next time you want to have a decent conversation with me, do the approach like a civilized person and not like a peasant.
This being said, let me explain to you the sentence "as long as they can prove that they are Haitians."
Internationally speaking, in case you didn't know or forgot it there are two law that are used in order to define someone
Written by: oupala07, 20 Oct 2009 5:13 PM
From: Canada
nationality and they are the Jus solis (when you are the citizen of the country where you are born) and the Jus sanguinis (You are the citizen of a country only if you parents are also citizens of that country). In Haiti, we recognized them both: we don't care if your mother was a horse or a cow or a human, once you were born in our country, you are Haitian period, and the state by law must issue to your parents your birth certificate.
However, if I recall well, I don't think your government issues birth cirtificate to all Haitian born on its territory. So how do you want us to legally accept those fellow if your government wants to get rid of them. We will gladly accept them after the Dominican compensates the Haitian state monetarily for taking care of its citizens, even though they are of Haitian origins.
Furthermore, I think it is a racist policy not to issue birth certificate to citizen of Haitian decent born on your territory. Don't you have a score of Dominican nationals
Written by: oupala07, 20 Oct 2009 5:20 PM
From: Canada
bearing german, italian, and other europeans last name other than spanish one. Therefore, how could you be so choosy when it means to accept Dominicans of Haitian decent as genuine citizens. Should all of them be a Pena Gomez or a Sammy Sosa the homerun champ and baseball record breaker?
My friend you better get rid of the picture you have drawn inside your head about Haiti and its citizens, for it is not because our country looks like a war ravaged one and its people like a bunch of war refugees that you must think that we are some kind of Cro magon race. We have influenced every culture in Latin america even in the United States. The only thing they no one will admit it. You the Dominicans for instance, where do you think that your Merengue come from?
Written by: ateo1992, 20 Oct 2009 6:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
excuse my cold words, BUT THAT PRIEST IS A TRAITOR TO LOS PADRES DE LA PATRIA!!!!!
From: United States, New York, NY
Oupala! It is you! For a moment there I thougjt I was duped by an imposter out to make you seem like you have some sense!
First of all, I was referring to your stance on Illegal Haitian immigration, NOT the "trade matter". Second not everyone takes the time to read your posts. I happen to reply because it angers me and foolish blabbery needs to be confronted sometimes.
So if the DR repatriated a million drops of the haitian tidal wave back HOME, Haiti would want "compensation... For taking care of its (Dominican) citizens..." You seem to suggest that if every Haitian woman uninvitedly crossed illegally to the DR against Dominican law and gave birth they become legitimate Dominican nationals somehow??! Haiti would deserve compensation??!! This is no imposter, its the one tru Oupala spreading his absuridy!
You are right when you point out that other nationalities have done the same. Though that does not make it right and it is illegal all the same, it is by no measure close to
From: United States, New York, NY
Oupala! It is you! For a moment there I thougjt I was duped by an imposter out to make you seem like you have some sense!
First of all, I was referring to your stance on Illegal Haitian immigration, NOT the "trade matter". Second not everyone takes the time to read your posts. I happen to reply because it angers me and foolish blabbery needs to be confronted sometimes.
So if the DR repatriated a million drops of the haitian tidal wave back HOME, Haiti would want "compensation... For taking care of its (Dominican) citizens..." You seem to suggest that if every Haitian woman uninvitedly crossed illegally to the DR against Dominican law and gave birth they become legitimate Dominican nationals somehow??! Haiti would deserve compensation??!! This is no imposter, its the one tru Oupala spreading his absuridy!
You are right when you point out that other nationalities have done the same. Though that does not make it right and it is illegal all the same, it is by no measure close to
From: United States, New York, NY
the Haitian tidal wave.
An let me not even address your comment about OUR merengue. I'm sure the rest of the members will give you a piece of their mind on that one.
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 7:17 PM
From: Dominican Republic
"We have influenced every culture in Latin america even in the United States. The only thing they no one will admit it. You the Dominicans for instance, where do you think that your Merengue come from?"
Oupala,you do not qualify as Cro Magnon and your paragraph above illustrates the worst part of Haiti a Sh't hole full of backwards "people" who somehow think they are great and that the world should thank Haiti when in fact most of the world looks at Haiti and just shakes their heads .Haitians are not equipped to run anything ,least of all a nation and the best thing to happen would be to make the UN involvement long term so that maybe the savages can evolve in 2 or 3 generations to the level of a third world country.
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 7:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic
As far as the idiotic Haitian posts about MERENGUE ,they are obviously as ignorant as some of our own afrocentric Dominicans because todays merengue comes from music from El Cibao called Merengue Tipico or Perico Ripiao which has no similarity to Haitian music ,as a matter of fact Merengue was actually frowned upon by the upper classes and the non Cibaeño population in the past because it was considered "Hick Music" or low class music .Merengue was institutionalized and "modernized" by the all time favourite of Haitians ,Trujillo and ever since then the music has absorbed many outside influences .
Merengue Tipico (real Merengue) cannot be compared to any Haitian music though we do have music from other regions (Palos,Salves) that are like Haitians very African .
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 7:29 PM
From: Dominican Republic
So oupala ,when your knuckles stop scrapping the floor maybe you can come up with some valid arguments to the surreal idea you have of Haitians and the crude reality that the whole world can see because only a latrine of a nation like Haiti could make my poor ,impoverished and backwards country look good in comparison and if you would pull your head out of your arse you would see the real Haiti and not your fictional great land,otherwise you will never be able to correct the problems that confront Haiti because those that deny their problems can never correct them and you as a nation are in DENIAL ,but even worse than denial you think you are "special" so you are actually an "insane" nation.
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 7:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Maybe you tell yourselves that those mudcakes are Filet Mignon and Haitians are the worlds leading scientists and that the US would not have defeated the British without the Haitians and that South America's massive armies would not have won without a Haitian and that maybe even the trip to the moon was a Haitian accomplishment but all you do is make people laugh at you and instead of a charity case you become a nation of fools ,and nobody likes to help a fool because it is a waste of time.
Please become President Oupala and take all your countrymen (by HAITIAN LAW and your words) Jus Soli and Jus Sanguini are both valid in HAITI so the whole 2 million are yours to have and to keep and to feed mud pies and whatever the UN gives you but be careful for they will try to kill you and you will have to resort to extreme violence which is the only method known to work with your people.
From: United States, New York
From: United States, New York, NY
Pepe, that's harsh. True - but harsh. But true :)
But I guess its desperate measure when trying to talk sense to Oupala.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Oct 2009 9:59 PM
From: United States
santana33
Pepe, that's harsh. True - but harsh. But true :)
Santana33, you are worst than pepe32, for even giving vain credit to his offensive post. pepe32, when you are posting here, you should stick to an objective argument and refrain from personally attacking others, this is something that you do often, specially when you do not have any objectivity to post.
I am extremely happy that haiti is doing this, since it might actually wake up the masses in the DR, that migration control is indeed possible. Why isn't the DR stopping illegal migration by developing a set of post and become pain in the assess like the haitians when it comes to foreigners.
I feel like the haitians know our laid back behavior and looking up to government mentality that we suffer from. Once gain our colonial mind is winning the battle against the 21st century independent mind that it is necessary to end this situation.
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 10:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic
When Oupala or anyone attacks my country in a DOMINICAN forum no "vendepatria" is going to tell me how I have to react. When he spreads garbage about Haiti being great while putting down DR I will not remain silent but what would you know about decency and justice when you support known mass murderers ...
Somehow in the left wing radical dictionary truth (especially in reference to pet projects like Haiti) are offensive yet similar or worse things said by this poster about DR are "honest opinions" ,perhaps he feels in his deluded and elitist mind that being born Dominican gives him the right to minimize any Dominican accomplishment while he makes the Haitian population innocent of all their shortcomings .
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 10:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Many of us start in the forums trying to find a consensus and after a while realize that Haitians do not want a consensus for they are "a great nation" and we and the world should be thankful for their contributions to humanity and when the village idiot thinks he is Einstein it is difficult to argue the case . Haitians like Oupala are aided by traitors from "within" who only intervene on the side of Haitians no matter what the Haitians say.
It is understandable that a school principal from the ghetto's of NY infected with the afrocentric illness would side with the Haitians over his own supposed countrymen because for racists like these the first consideration is the African race and if an afrodescendant screws up ,it must be the fault of some European or eurodescendant and since Dominicans will not accept the "truth" of DR being an African nation we must be the evil ones vis a vis Haiti .
Dominican Elites are the main problem followed by the Dominican population followed by
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 11:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic
the Haitian elites and of course the Haitian population has no fault in this which is as idiotic (left wing ) as saying the Dominican Republic's population has nothing to do with DR's problems when as Dominicans we know of many problems in our culture and even the politicians that try and correct them give up in frustration.By the same token the Haitian population is part and parcel with the problem in Haiti because as a real educator would know ,it is much harder to teach students without a solid family structure the Haitian population as a family is one mostly without structure and what little it does have is based on backwards cultural elements.
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Oct 2009 11:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Anyhow ,Oupala and the Pro-hatians in this forum should form their own Haitian Today and leave this forum to those of us who care about DR first and foremost .The could concentrate all their efforts on helping Haitians instead of telling Dominicans to deal with Haitian problems while at the same time telling us we are the "bad guys" in this equation".
Good luck with Haiti Cherie,but hands off República Dominicana !
Written by: StanEarl, 21 Oct 2009 1:00 AM
From: United States
Haitians like Oupala are aided by traitors from "within" who only intervene on the side of Haitians no matter what the Haitians say.
Wow..Pepe32 I wanna share a little something that I have learned over the year. Any momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a phyrrhic victory. It is more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions without being uncivil.
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 7:39 AM
From: United States
pepe32, it took you five posts, and still did not say anything.
WHAT DID pepe32 Say? Can someone please make sense of what he is saying?
ONCE AGAIN, PEPE32, YOU WROTE FIVE POSTS AND WAS NOT ABLE CONVAY ANY CONCRETE IDEAS. PLEASE RE-WRITE THE POSTS, AND I WILL BE ABLE TO READ THEM AGAIN SOMETIME THROUGH OUT THE DAY.
OH and yes, from my comfy office.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 9:18 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Of course Dagtan does not read preferring to repeat sheep like the same tired axioms "yes we can"
perhaps he will get a Nobel prize too since the requirements have been lowered to the floor.
If you have nothing to say it's because you little left wing brain can only repeat mantras but knows nothing of free thought. Oupala is a mental retard and says idiocy after idiocy yet .
He has a "Haitian like " trait when he comments that he is writing from his comfy office which is not verifiable as we know in an anonymous forum and which if actually true does not make his arguments any more or less valid.Such is the argument of those that have nothing real to say and that somehow in his deranged mind he thinks he is the only one with an office .
This imbecile puts down everything Dominican ,in none of his posts does he say anything positive about DR yet his view of Haitians is one of solid defense even when it is indefensible.Oupala is understandable as an admitted Haitian but if Dagta
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:08 AM
From: Dominican Republic
truly Dominican then he is in line with that most reviled group of people ,the traitors to their own who cannot be trusted by anyone .
To Stan Earl ,I do not feel any sense of victory because the reality on the ground has not changed all.
The topic of this thread is the hypocrisy of Haitian officials and their supporters in this forum (and the Jesuits and NGO's) that cry bloody murder when the DR enforces it's migratory laws yet say nothing about Haiti's actions.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:12 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Haiti's supporters should use all their misguided energy and focus on Haitians in Haiti because this forum while it will naturally have issues regarding Haiti and the millions in our country is focused on the Dominican point of view and Dominican interests and not the interests of Haiti or its citizens . If Haiti disappeared from the face of the earth Dominicans would still face many problems but one of our main problems since the foundation of DR would disappear .This of course is not going to happen.instead every day we have more Haitians and Haitians pose a greater burden on our already fragile infrastructure bringing them to a breaking point and this is what pseudo humanitarians like Dagtan do not understand or care about since they only care about the plight of Haitians what happens to the everyday Dominican does not even cross their mind .Who care if Dominicans have less resources because they are spent on Haitians ? somehow they want us to rise up against our government
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:21 AM
From: Dominican Republic
to demand what is right yet we would still have several million Haitians ILLEGALLY in our country and only mass deportation can solve that problem .I don't really care who's fault it is at this point because the problem will soon escape Leonel's little girly hands and what should be done legally and humanely will end up being done in the usual way on this island .All it takes are a couple of rum induced mobs to lynch people in several areas and we will have a massive "voluntary" exit and we will then have the condemnation of all the enemies that thwarted any real humane repatriation .
Bottom line in legal terms the Dominican Republic has the legal right to deport over 90% of the Haitians in our territory
Dominican Republic cannot stand much longer (worse in this economic climate) the burden created by said Haitians
Dominican Republic is first in line in requesting aid for Haiti because anyone with decency and a sense of justice knows Haitians do not bring anything worthwhile t
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:29 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Of all those nations that rail against DR ,how many of them accept large Haitian immigration?
How many of them reimburse the DR for our expenditures on Haitian nationals?
How many of these nations turn back Haitians without blinking an eye ?
All a bunch of hypocrites that decry Dominican "actions" towards Haitians yet when it comes to their own countries show that they don't want Haitians either.
It all boils down to the DR having to be burdened with it's worst and most persistent enemy from the foundation of the Republic and that is unheard of in the annals of history ,that's why only people with no real active connections to DR culture and usually infected with the twisted and racist ideas of Afrocentrism push for DR to absorb their Haitian "brothers " (maybe like Cain) in their twisted idea that we should cease to exist as DR and become one with Haiti (obviously with Haiti's Afrocentric ideology on top)
Demographically Dominicans would be overwhelmed in any such union
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:37 AM
From: Dominican Republic
and the most inept would run the government .Many gave their lives to free us from Haiti yet the current trend if not corrected will make their struggle against our brutal neighbors a struggle in vain.
Duarte is reviled by Haitians as is anyone who has stood in the path of Haitian hegemony over the whole island while we have NEVER invaded Haiti.Some say these poor Haitian peasants are not an invasion force yet the reality is that they are and continue to be Haitians and no country that considers its future allows another group (whomever they may be) to overpower them without a fight and that is exactly what DR is allowing because when Haitians reach 30% to 40% of the population it will be too late to correct without massive amounts of blood and sacrifice.
So we can either react now while it can still be done in a civilized manner or we can let the sh_t hit the fan and let their voodoo demons sort them out later.
Written by: msjersey, 21 Oct 2009 10:47 AM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
domincanchic: it is called double standard, people like this so call priest are nothing but traitor to the what DUARTE did for our country.
I bet you the politicians of today would not do what DUARTE did, selling all his valuable to buy weapon to fight the haitians and ultimatelly defeating them.
That is love for our country.
From: United States, New York, NY
Dagtan
I stand by my comment. I do not applaud Pepe's insults of Haitians (unless he is directing them specifically at Oupala).
Let me be clear, I agreed when Pepe said that violence is the only method known to work. I would like to see you suggest a realistic non-forceful way to remove illegal Haitians from the DR. Because we all know that we cannot just politely ask them to go home. If something doesn't happen soon, I fear there will be violence and unfortunately the sad truth is that this is the only way that they will leave.
And you are so naive to think anything Haiti does to "protect" their borders will "wake up the masses in the DR that migration control is indeed possible"?? WHAT?! Are you suggesting that Haiti can show us how to keep Haitians out by us seeing how they protect THEIR border from foreigners?
Pepe might have used 5 posts to try to get his ideas across, maybe he was a bit wordy but he makes valid points if you actually read it before replying.
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 11:32 AM
From: United States
pepe32, did you just called me a haitian lover?
Written by: StanEarl, 21 Oct 2009 12:20 PM
From: United States
Good morning to all . Pepe32 and Santana, I understand your frustrations but you guys seem not to understand the illegal Haitians in DR are here to stay, until your Gov see fit to deport them back to Haiti. Unless you guys gonna round them up yourselves. Bothers it's not gonna happen this situation is bigger than any of us. Therefore, all this bickering is worthless
Msjersey all that Duarte mentality is good, but it won't serve you no purpose today, because your Gov is to busy tryng to look good for the big power.
Pepe32 to say that some of us are against DR it's ludicrous, We don't really have to agree with everything that happen in this world; people are in title of their opinion. .We are against the double standards and the injustice being serve to the Haitian but it doens't make any of us a traitor or (DR haters). Imagine yourself in theirs shoes, wouldn't you want someone to fight for your cause. I ll suggest you come up with a solution to stop the maddness without violence
From: United States, New York, NY
StanEarl,
It is reasonable to assume that there will always be a pocket of illegal foreigners in every country. This can "fly under the radar" but when you have MILLIONS, to the extent that they are a calculable portion of a total population, a visible pie in a pie chart, THAT will not fly and problems will ensue.
You seem to understand that the only way is to "round em up" but if the government does not "see fit to deport them back to Haiti" then we are sitting on an increasingly unstable time bomb.
I do not hate Hatians or any one ethnic groups, race, etc. but I do HATE the situation we're in. I am sympathetic to all human suffering and as I have said before on these forums, as good neighbors we need to help Haiti when we can and where we can WITHOUT compromising the DR and its legitimate population. Dominican Republic FIRST, everyone else a distant second. Illegal Haitians fall into the "distant second" category.
From: United States, New York, NY
Of course the situation is bigger than anyone one of us but we cannot just stand with our arms crossed and say "they are here to stay".
Neither I, nor Pepe, nor the intellectually-challenged Oupala can effect any change in any direction but as a proud Dominican I believe that anyone with an opinion contrary to the DR's best interests need to be confronted - even if its merely on this forum.
From: United States
I have read and read the article and I am stil trying to reconcile your comments with the essence of the article.
Is it Dominican Today or the Tower of Babylon Today ????
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Santana ,thank you for your words ,I know I come off as harsh to some (and even worse to others) but I have spent some time in forums with a Haitian majority and lets just say that the are known lily white ( no pun intended) .I am frustrated as most Dominicans are with the issues we have as Dominicans and since I am in DR on a monthly basis I see the negative effects the massive influx of Haitians has on my country and its already precarious future and then I am faced in this forum by people who have no real connection to DR and with a condescending attitude to what is "supposedly" their own country yet they defend Haiti and Haitian interests to an extreme and any Dominican with blood in their veins does not like this .
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic
If you notice posters like Dagtan who demean and crap over anything to do with DR and then gets offended at the smallest inference of Haitian backwardness ,then proceed to cry when they are called traitors or vendepatrias .I hate hypocrisy and these people reek of it ,their concept of justice is completely flawed because it is based on helping Haitians while screwi_g Dominicans ,helping Haiti by trashing DR and I will not remain quiet while some two bit ghetto principal trashes my country .
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I also believe that this individuals that live outside with no real contact with the DR do not really understand what is really happening on the "ground" in DR and the social explosion that can occur ,they only see the Haitian point of view and a distorted historical view pushed by Haitians and others in the AfroNazi movement .In their eyes DR should be" thankful" to Haitians and all Haitian faults in this mess are to be blamed on everyone except the Haitians (Dominican elites,Dominicans in general,Haitian Elite in that order) .
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 3:29 PM
From: United States
pepe32, said:
"I am faced in this forum by people who have no real connection to DR and with a condescending attitude to what is "supposedly" their own country yet they defend Haiti and Haitian interests to an extreme and any Dominican with blood in their veins does not like this" .
Pep32, what is interesting is that some of these people that you refer above actually contribute to the DR more than you, both intellectually and monetary. They just do not think as radically as you, so stop the bloodbath, because it does not take anywhere.
It is amazing how you can simply come on here and openly delcare those of us who advocate for a comprehensive solution that is based on mutal respect and application of human rights laws as bloodless dominicans who do not care for the well being of the country. You make these assertions without knowing if any of those people have investments, family and other connections to the country that contributes more than your blinded nationalism.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
BTW ,at least oupala no matter how idiotic his claims is defending his country and his people ,strange thing is that none of the vendepatrias take the oupalas of the forum to task for their idiotic posts but will jump down the throat of any Dominican who dares to question their twisted worldview in which Chairman Mao ,Stalin and Che Guevara are viewed as heroes yet these same people have the gall to talk about human rights ,democracy and human compassion.These are the people who confront DR and the worst enemy as always is the one within ,be it the Jesuit priests,the "internationalists" and the AfroNazi's among us for we can counter Haitian attacks easily but these individuals would open the door to all Haitians to achieve their goals and DR as we know it would cease to exist instead becoming Haiti part II.
As long as I have breath I will do whatever is in my power to counter any moves from these traitors be it in public forums or donations to political forces that support real acti
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:44 PM
From: Dominican Republic
"some of these people that you refer above actually contribute to the DR more than you, both intellectually and monetary. "
Statements like this are pulled from your anal orifice because you don't know who I am nor what I do just like I don't know if you are in an office or sitting in a basement collecting welfare.
Bloodbaths are many times produced by weakness because your "solution" is to lay blame on all except the Haitians and the base reality is that the problem is the close to 2 million Haitians and discussing the why and who is to blame does not change the reality of the solution which is to deport the vast majority and leave only those that are needed by DR.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I like the fact that you generalized the statement when the main culprits in this area are you and Josean .You obviously have no clue what goes on in DR and have been sucked into the liberal US vortex .The reality of most Dominicans is alien to you and short of Haitians going on a rampage and killing Dominicans I don't think you would react and even then you might still be looking for the Dominican "culprit " because Haitians as a whole a blameless in your fantasy world.
Your attitude is not that of an unbiased observer and that is why you will generate hostility from the Dominican side ,because your bias is obvious and it is Anti -Dominican! In none of your posts do you have anything positive to say about DR somehow you feel that crapping on DR is your contribution or that you being an enlightened soul can somehow teach us savage Dominicans how we should do things...
Most of us know the strengths and weaknesses of out country and we continue to work to improve her but you don't sh
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 3:58 PM
From: Dominican Republic
any love for DR and on the flip side your marxist based education makes you sympathetic to Haiti which is OK but don't tell us you are Dominican because if you had any in you a long time ago it has been eroded by the passage of time. Fortunately we do not live in Che Guevara's world and both of us can express our opinions without fear of prison or death and you are entitled to have your opinion ,what you cannot expect is for others to remain silent to your postings so write away and call us barbarians (unlike the Haitians ...) but keep in mind those of us in this forum are those that are still willing to use words to solve a cataclysmic issue ,many others are not predisposed to words and will not care what you or anyone in your circle have to say ,they will take action to the detriment of both Dominicans and Haitians so unless the pressure valve that you referred to is not sent back to Haiti or the US ,France or Canada accept them the situation will explode .
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 4:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Unfortunately Leonel does not have the intestinal fortitude to take the necessary actions because he would as is usual in doing the right thing be attacked from all sides ,the Dominican elites,the Haitians,the Jesuits,the Marxists but among the Dominican people he would have OVERWHELMING support .Dagtan would be on the same side as the Dominican elites and Josean would be with the Jesuits ,what a mess.
The UN would face close to 2 million refugees and total chaos as the nation that keeps Haitians like slaves and mistreats them sends them back to paradise AKA Haiti Cherie.
Any Dominicans that feel Haitians are our brothers can be provided with free one way transit to Puerto Principe and a signed renunciation of their Dominican citizenship free of charge.
Dominicans would no longer mistreat any Haitians (there would be none except some elites) so the NGO's and the Jesuits could leave and anyone that wants to "help" Haiti could go right to the source to help them.
From: United States, New York, NY
Pepe, I wouldn't be too quick to give Oupala any credit. I think he hates the DR (or is jealous or just wants Haitians to take it over) more than he loves Haiti or being Haitian. Oupala's one virtue is his confidence in not seeming a fool when he tickles his keyboard.
Dagtan,
Wanting to oust an uninvited tsunami of foreigners that now comprise AT LEAST 10% of the DRs population (based on conservative estimates) is NOT radical blinded nationalism!!
What do you mean by a "comprehensive solution"? How can you or any proud Dominican not "comprehend" that our nation cannot absorb 1MM+ non-contributing foreigners? What "solution" other than massive deportation would make things right for DOMINICANS?
Human Rights?! It is NOT any human's right to walk onto another sovereign country's territory! And if YOU like this so much, you must be Hatian, or an investor widening your profit margins by exploiting cheap Hatian labor or a government official getting paid by someone who is!!
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 5:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Sad thing is that Oupala is probably an ëlite¨in Haiti (semi-alfabetizado)
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 8:56 PM
From: United States
santana33, maybe for the 20th time I will try to have you guys understand what a comprehensive system should look like, even though there is no specific recipe since each country and people is different, it is up to them to decide what it would look like. The basics of a comprehensive system is HUMAN RIGHTS. We must guide ourselves by the human rights that have been put in place and that protected ourselves from oppressive governments in the past (i.e. Lily, Trujillo and Balaguer).
The system in a perfect political arena will be developed and agreed upon by both sides, however, this does not happen all the time, so one side must be determined to engage the other side first. There is no evidence that the DR has engaged Haiti, since it is clear that haiti is not willing to work on such plan at this time.
Second: The DR needs to start working on making sure that the DEFICIT THINKING IS REJECTED at all cost and no one in the negotiations or at the government level should allow,
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 9:03 PM
From: United States
their decision making abilities to be guide by such archaic frame of thinking. moreover, the DR being the most advanced of the two in terms of technology,education and modern day governance has the onus to engage and not lead by silence as it is doing by right now. The DR must engage those who hold alternative views (i.e. haiti) in order to laid the ground work for a system to be implemented.
This system should be founded on the basis of respect and recognition of human rights laws, this will help the DR carry out an effective and efficient deportation system in which repeater offenders will be prosecuted under the law and those who are able to gain legal documentation will be protected as dominicans are on their homeland.
Moreover, the economical burden that will be undertaken by the DR government should be shared by both sides, even is haiti refuse to pay, the DR should hold them responsible for such sums of monies and use that as leverage to re-engage diplomatically,
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 9:11 PM
From: United States
(something that I do not support, since we need them for trade and labor supply). however, if they want to enjoy fully of our relationship, then they must pay up. In the midst of the current conflict the DR still holds normal diplomatic relations with haiti, this is something that is troubling.
Finally, the haitians that are able to prove that they have been working and not getting into trouble or committing crime should be given especial amnesty so they can continue to progress and be integrated into the mainstream society. Moreover, those haitians of mixed parents should be granted they citizenship without question and those who have been born on national territory should be given their rightful rights as well. This is not only ethically and morally correct, but a political victory for the DR at the national and world level.
second finally, i will ask for the haitians who remain in the DR legally and those that were born there no less than to be given the same respect,
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 9:17 PM
From: United States
opportunities, protection and privileges as the one that I as an immigrant ask to be given to me here in the U.S.
Dominicans back home and some here who do not feel attach to the U.S. for what ever reasons, should pause and ask themselves, what would have been of my life if I was treated the same way that I (assuming) support the way that haitians are treated back home. This goes for both legal and illegal Dominicans, just the legal and illegal haitians back home. I do not want the DR to extend one more rights than the rights that i demand of the Americans as an immigrant.
Third finally, do not use the same old lame excuse, that the two countries are not the same. many Dominicans here fare the same way as haitians do back home and they demand their rights and there are people making sure that those rights are met or at least respected. Some of you here it seems to me have never face an american xenophobs and heard them talk about our people. WATCH SOLEDAD OBRIEN TODAY AND
Written by: dagtan, 21 Oct 2009 9:19 PM
From: United States
TOMORROW ON CNN, documentary about US LATINOS here in the U.S. and judge by yourself. I really hate having to post so much verbiage since it does not help and its often dilute the essence of the argument, I am very sorry for that.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Actually details are important because little quips in reference to a complex issue do not lead anywhere.
I agree with everything you wrote until this;
Finally, the haitians that are able to prove that they have been working and not getting into trouble or committing crime should be given especial amnesty so they can continue to progress and be integrated into the mainstream society.
**This is subject to debate and it should depend solely on Dominican criteria and the needs and benefits to Dominican society or not and if we determine deportation is what we want we would be in our right as a sovereign nation to do so.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Moreover, those haitians of mixed parents should be granted they citizenship without question
***Nothing is without question ,although in most cases if at least one parent is a Dominican citizen then the spouse or children can acquire Dominican citizenship through the proper channels.
and those who have been born on national territory should be given their rightful rights as well.
*** this is the biggest apple of discord and will cause the most commotion because it would be setting a bad precedent and rewarding them for breaking the law so in most cases if their parents are Haitian nationals they are by Haitian law Haitian citizens and entitled to the rights as Haitian nationals . It will also guarantee that a massive amount of Haitians remain in DR and most Dominicans feel that would be bad for DR so I would say no way on this one.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
This is not only ethically and morally correct, but a political victory for the DR at the national and world level.
***The ethics of it are debatable and the morality of it is ludicrous especially when many of those that speak of this morality support totally immoral positions abortion,homosexuality,Che Guevara etc. so you either recognize that morality has different interpretations or you don't get any agreement.
A political victory among people from one side of the equation who would be just as happy if DR submitted to their whims but though some of the points are good the others are either marginally acceptable or not at all.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:25 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Third finally, do not use the same old lame excuse, that the two countries are not the same. many Dominicans here fare the same way as haitians do back home and they demand their rights and there are people making sure that those rights are met or at least respected. Some of you here it seems to me have never face an american xenophobs and heard them talk about our people. WATCH SOLEDAD OBRIEN TODAY AND
Please don't use the same lame comparison between DR and Europe or the US because the situations are radically different in scope,historical context ,percentage of population ,income,education etc. to the point that many Dominicans agree that the US and Europe are entitled to deport Dominicans and anyone else in their country illegally . European nations and the US are also not facing an immigration tidal wave that reaches close to 20% of their population from a historical enemy so no the situations are not the same and any Dominican knows that .
I hope the new constitution
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:29 PM
From: Dominican Republic
adopts a strict jus sanguini and closes this legal loophole,because bottom line DR may be able to take in 50 to 100,000 Haitians at the most and the rest would have to be deported in coordination with the UN .
Written by: antonioj, 21 Oct 2009 11:12 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 10:29 PM
From: Dominican Republic
adopts a strict jus sanguini and closes this legal loophole,because bottom line DR may be able to take in 50 to 100,000 Haitians at the most and the rest would have to be deported in coordination with the UN .
"
Is this a realistic proposal ? ..... Pepe32/ ondevert grow up you are still the same old dinausor. Prisoner of his own upbringing,ideology, ,blind with bigotry, hate ,unrealistic dream and delusion.
Sadly the principle of evolution does not apply to your species, picture perfect of the half illiterate fool, I debated years ago.
Written by: oupala07, 21 Oct 2009 11:13 PM
From: Canada
I don't need your condescending charity Pepe32: your country is not a first world one, it is way far from being one. Even Brazil is not a first world country so don't thump your chest.
You don't want us on your soil, I've already told you that it is fine with me, but after sending every single one of my countrymen and women living in your land back home, don't forget to shut down the border too, and to cancel all bilateral trade. Like that we could use the more than 500 millions dollars we're dumping into your economy to care for our people.
Coward always have loud mouth, and they love to pick on weaker foe, because they're sure to win. You better watch out to not make some bad miscalculation my friend, because you know pretty well that we Haitians have nothing to prove to the world.
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 7:19 AM
From: United States
I just wanted to make it public that pepe32 does not represent the mainstream Domincan population. We are a people that is know for hospitality and caring for others and do not believe that the haitian issue is going to chnage this natural trait.
I am hopeful that this issue will be resolve and that some of my ideas will make it to such resolvation of issues. It is an unfortunate situation and I believe that if it when this happens, both nations will be benfited and affected by the closure of the borders.
I agree with oupala07, once the situation is resolved, those borders need to be sealed and build walls ala Israel, so that this does not happen again. I am totally against illegal immigration, even though my country men and women migrate illegally in high numbers to other countries.
Finally, by sealing the borders, the haitians will be forced to fend for themselves and move forward without the constant marginalization that they face in the DR. And we in the DR will finall
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 7:22 AM
From: United States
be forced to hold our government and business community accountable to the every day person in creating a system that allows for upward social mobility.
Sometimes I really feel out of place around, since I try to offer the most objective and passion detached posts, while people (typical of of my people) have not being able to rid themselves of the ills of passion and emotions when they are debating.
The number one rule in higher education is DO NOT WRITE OR SPEAK WITH YOUR HEART, ALLOW THE BRAIN THE BRAIN TO DO YOUR WRTING AND SPEAKING, FOR THE HEART IS BLIND AND UNREASONABLE.
Written by: msjersey, 22 Oct 2009 8:07 AM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
pepe32: put down the pipe, too strong is affecting yuor brain! lol.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 11:29 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Crack is a bad drug have been told.Pepe32 solution will amount to nothing more than ethnic cleasing. I agree dagtan dominicans are the most generous, hospitable people i ever met. Pepe represent a very vocal fringe minority.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 11:38 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan,you definitely don't represent the Citizens of DR and most would considers your proposals traitorous ,please note that 2 Haitians came in to support you one sane and the other fit to tie up.
And you antonio (two faced piti) how many Haitians is realistic in DR ,how many backwards people can we absorb according to your "realistic" point of view.
The idiot Dagtan comes in to dictate what he in his leftist bent thinks and he expects in his inflated ego that it should be done as he says but of course that would mean that most Haitians in DR would stay and anyone thank thinks that most Dominicans feel this way is deluding themselves .
Keep delaying and you will get what you want traitor ,a chance to call us barbarians because when the government avoids doing what is necessary the general population will take matters into their own hands .
You are so detached from the Dominican Republic in you little glass house that you don't have an idea of what most Dominicans think about
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 11:43 AM
From: United States
pepe32, please refrain from the name calling. Make your point and move on.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 11:50 AM
From: Dominican Republic
this issue .Even the center left of the Dominican Republic rejects you thesis .
You are correct about one issue ,we are a very hospitable people but even the most hospitable people get fed up by people who abuse their hospitality .We are even hospitable to people that deserve no hospitality from us but when forced to choose between Haitian interests and Dominican interests we will always choose DR which is the exact opposite of vendeapatrias like you.
At least antonio and the retard oupala are defending their country and its interests and that is respectable but you don't care if DR goes back 50 to 100 years because you don't care about DR at all.
"Is there not some chosen curse, Some hidden thunder in the stores of heaven, Red with uncommon wrath, to blast the man Who owes his greatness to his country's ruin? "
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 12:00 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I agree with oupala07 ,this proves that Dagtan is a deranged traitor.
And Dagie ,if the shoe fits wear it for you and your condescending nature are just hypocritical in your berating of DR while your defense of Haitian positions is valiant.
You do not like any of you points contradicted because you think yourself the sole proprietor of truth ,in other words you are full of yourself .
When posed with contradictions to any point you react against the writer instead of the idea yet you can't take a response in kind .Go to DR more often and speak to the people with honesty and ask them how they feel about the flood of Haitians in DR ,ask them if these Haitians should be given rights as Dominican citizens ,if you ask them in a sincere manner you will find that you are totally lost and as most liberals that only talk to liberals your glass house will shatter for while you live in the US and view this in a theoretical manner these people live it day to day.
From: United States, New York, NY
Only Oupala would ridiculously suggest that Haitians benefit our society in any way, shape or form. $500 million dollars pumped into DRs economy? at what cost? our natural resources? medical resources? schools? And how is this figure even quantiied?
And only Oupala would ridiculously suggest that sealing off the border benefits Haiti - you can't take of your people without food, Einstein! Where do you think they buy most of it from!!
Pepe is NOT the fringe minority but is vocalizing what MOST Dominicans desire. And it is NOT "ethnic cleansing". Ethnic cleansing would be killing off legitimate Dominicans of Haitian descent. This would be REPATRIATION and removal of millions of unwanted foreigners!
From: United States, New York, NY
I was following Dagtans post(s) in agreement until he dropped the word "amnesty". The word makes me itch and sneeze. Thanks Pepe for not letting that one slide.
"The basics of a comprehensive system is human rights" - I am not saying to violate any person's human rights, they can be humanely removed. I am against granting civil rights to millions of uninvited foreigners.
I agree that the DR should be the one to engage Haiti on the topic.
But everything that you posted after that would be to the benefit of Haitians not Dominicans and to satisfy the likes of Clinton and Carter who do not care for our history nor the desires of the DOMINICAN people.
A political win? You would sell out the blood of our forefathers for a political win?!
Written by: oupala07, 22 Oct 2009 12:19 PM
From: Canada
Santana33,
How much food did we use to buy from you under the Duvalier regime? I can't waste my time with pea soup brain like you, because you can't even understand that the reason why we buy from you is not because you are essential to our survival, but just because it costs us less.
If we shut down the border, we can either use the more than half a billion dollars we are wasting in your economy and either revamp our agriculture industry or buying it in Cuba or jamaica or South America. And then you'll ask your government why the poverty leverl has risen due to that shortfall.
I don't expect your rat brain to comprehend the basic of economics, so I can easily forgive underachievers like you and move on.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 12:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Por lo menos oupalito aunque loco de remate no es un hipocrita!
A el tal antonio lo conozco de los foros de Topix donde hay una mayoría Haitiana y este se caga_a sobre la RD pero aquí como buen piti traicionero viene como oveja mansa.
Dagtan es otro que nunca ha escrito nada positivo sobre la RD ,pero si le tocan los Haitianos se vuelve una fiera .Este habla de derechos humanos pero se olvida de los derechos de los Dominicanos a nuestra soberanía y a dedicar nuestros escasos recursos a nuestro pueblo pero es obvio que este tipo no solo dejo la RD de manera física sino que ya no tiene nada de Dominicano y que no le duele nuestro pueblo. Pero ya encontró la tusa de su cu_o porque no le voy a dejar pasar sus tonterías sin respuesta!
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 12:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
oupalito dear piti you are a basket case living on the good will of others ,a little humility would be appropriate because while you in your deranged mind spew out ravings of a lunatic your people are eating mud cakes and it is not DR's fault that you cannot feed yourselves ,if we expelled all your compatriots Haiti would make Somalia look like a paradise but you in your fantasy world think of greatness but instead of proving it you count on others to get you out of your mess because your "great" nation cannot do anything on their own .
Now none of this would matter to me except for the fact that you are in a Dominican forum spewing your excrement.
From: United States, New York, NY
Oupala! Oupala! Oupala! (wow, that sounds like a voo-doo rite!)
Of course it costs less! That is the basics of economics, getting it from a few hundred miles away means fresher food with low transport costs. DUH!! Refuse to buy from us and you are paying more to get it over the water??!! Statements like that are a testament to your intelligence and economic sense.
And you are obviously guessing your facts - import food from CUBA???!! ...... Cuba IMPORTS food, genius.
Unless you can subsist on sugar and yams you can forget Jamaica, too.... that leaves you with South America at a higher cost. But mostly you need rice, milk and eggs and there is nobody that can export those to Haiti in sufficient quantity, nevermind least cost.
No surprise that with this intelligence you dare to say the DR's poverty levels will rise if millions of Haitians return home. Wow.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 1:28 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Santa you need to expand how do you reduce a segment of immigrant established decade ago legal or illegal by your own estimate from 3 millions to 50,000 or 100,000 ? Petition your goverment to build a wall, seal the border, repatriate all haitians this should be easy I am sick and tired of this eternal bickering. Your goverment should make immigration a priority.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 1:37 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Pepe32/ondevert sigue mi pana, la tareja me lo se. Lo k te hace falta es un winikiki
jinetero, nunca dejas de mantenerme entretenido.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 2:21 PM
From: Canada, home safe
May they rest in peace, vigilante justice is not an option in any progressiste society, these individuals that have commited that heinous crime should be brought to justice. Trinitario I understand however this is not the image dr want to convey to the world.
From: United States, New York, NY
Antonioj,
3 Million is not my own estimate, it is a number that I have seen many others use as their best guess. In my posts I have interchangeable used the conservative estimate of a million and the other suggested (and maybe more realistic) figures of upwards of 3 million depending on the scope of the argument. I believe I denote these figures as such when I use them and they are not MY estimates. I do not think ANYONE knows how many Haitians are in the DR illegally. My personal best guess would be that the conservative estimates are too low just based on how many I see in the different parts of the country I visit. One million would be about 10% of the population, that is not what I see and I think we can all agree it is more than that.
I agree with you completely. I want to be done with this bickering - I am all for a wall and massive deportation.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 2:38 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 2:47 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Santa I have nothing against nationalist looking for their countryman first, however I find blind nationalist dangerous since alot of these folks act and behave with emotion rather than their head.I am for a wall and massive deportation and the sealing of the border for different reason than yours.
Massive deportation: do not beleive it will ever happened or perhaps not to the scale that will satisfy the nationalist
Sealing of the border: NEVER
wall: I do not know
Written by: StanEarl, 22 Oct 2009 2:47 PM
From: United States
Please let's get this started so we can stop this thread and move on with ther stuff. I am getting tired of the back and forth finger pointing Sh*^%$t, once the plan is executed DR will deal with it's problem without worryng about those Haitians.
May DR stay prosper and Haitian gov get their S*&^%t together for a better future for it's people.
Amen. guys let's move on
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
antonioj
I agree, is a very heinous crime, but is the reality of the situation, people is getting tired and are taking matter in their own hands and more of this type of crimes are going to happen.
don't believe the fairy tales you see posted here by people that don't even live in the island.
Dominicans only have a limited amount of good will and tolerance, there is only limited resources to share with the poor haitians, this is the topic that the afrocentric mob don't understand, it is not a race issue it is a survival of the fittest issue, is people fighting for food and resourses that are not plentiful, this episodes will continue to happen as long as the open border policy continue to be implemented in both sides.
y lo que empeora el asunto son los lambones vende patria como jsean y dagtan que son mas haitianos que boyer y lo niegan, pero para desacreditar a mi patria no cojen brake.
hace que uno le coja odio por vende patria y doble cara
From: United States, New York, NY
Blind nationalists are the ones killing and burning to prove their point.
There is no blind nationalism on my part. I can see very clearly a HUGE amount of foreigners in my country and I can see very clearly that Dominicans prefer they not be there. I would hate for this to get to a boiling point (and it seems we are well on our way). Innocent lives will be lost and that will make our country seem worse that what it already is criticized to be.
When you (and others) say "nationalist" you rightfully suggest that the opinion(s) expressed are in favor of Dominicans and their homeland first and foremost, with less regard for others. To label me or anyone else a "nationalist" does not discount our common sense and reasoning behind what we want. It only highlights that we are looking out for Dominican interests before all others.
What are your non-nationalist reasons for wanting massive deportation and a walled border? I find this interesting that you agree but for different reasons
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 3:25 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Pepe32/ondevert sigue mi pana, la tareja me lo se. Lo k te hace falta es un winikiki
jinetero, nunca dejas de mantenerme entretenido.
Piti ignorante e hipócrita ,por lo menos aprende a escribir en Español .Yo sé lo que escribiste sobre los Dominicanos en el otro foro así es que a mi no me engañas.
Con gente como tu no el excremento me limpiaría porque solo lo cagar_a mas
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 3:36 PM
From: United States
old-school-trinitario "no cojen brake" the correct way is : no cojen descanso" SpanGlish is not a language, please one or the other.
NOW LETS MOVE SINCE NO PROGRESS IS BEING MADE. I am sticking to my believes and will fight and protest if it is done in way that I do not agree. Therefore, others have the same right to fight and protest if the issue is resolved any different than what they think.
However, at the end of the day, rationality must reign over whatever negotiations that take place. Adn I hope that when if it ever happens, the DR and Haiti can sit down and talk like nations without any preconditions and miconceptions and misperceptions that often hinder a productive exchange. Both side will be winners and loosers as the issue is resolved, that this is the norm, so it should be accepted by both sides.
The winners of such deals are the citizens, the fact that all illegal haitians, what ever number it is, will place their government under tremendous pressure,
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 3:41 PM
From: United States
to clean its act and for once work for its people. The haitians will benefit from such environment, even if it causes civil war and lives are lost, but it is for the right cause (holding your government accountable) such actions will force the US to intervene, which is a necessary evil for haiti at this time.
As for the DR, now with the haitian scapegoat out of the politcal manual, the people will be able to concentrate in making the government accountable for creating a system where the people can be integrated into the job market and be provided with the necessary health, nutritional, educational, training, housing that it is needed. The people will force the government to do self assessment and think twice about re-chanelling the funds that are to ve used for the good of the people.
Both side will lose, in the sense that I believe relationships will forever be broken and each side will never be able to trust each other again. I do not believe in close borders (diplomatically)
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 3:47 PM
From: United States
since humans benefit greatly from cultural exchanges. I don't know, but I believe that there is alot that we could learn from haitians and haitians could leanr from us. I have visited slums in Africa, SA, these are people that do not even have schools or running water and you come away learning something.
I am not going to say that we do not need haitians, as if we were a type of Asian Tiger in the caribbean. I think that could develop a good solid diplomatic relantionship to the point that one day we could have a student exchange program. We in the DR are still teaching based on the Spanish methods and Haiti uses the French methods, I do not see anything wrong interchanging systems and ideas.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 3:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Hopefully Dagtan will enter DOMINICAN forums (in our Spanish language ) and see what the majority think not what his leftist bleeding heart friends believe.
"una cosa es llamar al diablo ,otra cosa es verlo llegar!"
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 3:51 PM
From: United States
pepe32, I want to hear both sides. I do not want to be bias, since both sides are needed to resolve the ultimate question. I hope that DR will soon engage haiti and begin laid the ground work for such conversations.
From: United States, New York, NY
Dagtan,
This all sounds good but you do mean AFTER the Hatians go (or are sent) home, right?. I recalled you using the word amnesty once.
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 4:02 PM
From: United States
I believe that if the government deem some haitians as good law abiding illegal resident, who has never been in trouble with the law and has been able to hold a job. This person should at least be given the opportunity to apply for permanent residence in the DR.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 4:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
SpanGlish is not a language, please one or the other.
NOW LETS MOVE SINCE NO PROGRESS IS BEING MADE. I am sticking to my "believes"
Dagtan Spanish or English no Ebonics either ...BELIEFS
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 4:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The question was posed but nobody in the bleeding heart section responded as usual...
How many Haitians do you feel would be acceptable for the DR to keep? Mind you I say 50,000 to 100.000 although that may be to high.
According to Dagtans premise most would end up staying although we obviously don't need 2+ million Haitians nor can we handle that many so how many guys?
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 4:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan ,you say you want both sides yet you only see one side because you ignore or minimize any concept that is not within your pre-conceived notions .
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 4:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic
How many Haitians can the DR stand ??
PS why don't Carter and Clinton push for a special visa exemption for Haitians if they have so much "good will" ,it's easy to offer when you expect someone else to suffer the consequences but these two old hypocrites (especially Clinton who's government used to send Haitians back without blinking )
We can also add France ,the creator of this disaster and Canada ,another meddler ,they can each take 666 thousand Haitians each and feed them shelter them and educate them .
Of course this won't happen and the defenders of these charlatans won't ask them to actually do something because in this age of Nobel prizes for "wishing" actions cease to be important.
From: United States, New York, NY
An illegal is an illegal, the only "opportunity" he needs is to get on line and go through the proper channels. If we have no line then we have no line. If we have no channels, we have no channels! Breaking a country's law is already a strike against the person in my opinion. Rewarding him or her with an "opportunity" is like spitting in the face of some more deserving person who DID NOT enter illegally and could RIGHTFULLY benefit from said opportunity.
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 5:35 PM
From: United States
pepe32, believes (beliefs) is a typo and not ebonics.
Written by: dagtan, 22 Oct 2009 5:42 PM
From: United States
santana33, that is the essence of the problem. All these things will have to be ironed out by the DR government. Remember, that what ever side you are on, our opinions are made without knowledge of what the ground rules will be in such negotiations. It be nice to know a little about the logistics of the DR when it comes to a future mass deportation operation. I think that if everything goes smooth, the possibility of such option may increase, but if things go tumbling down, then it will not even be considered.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
DAGTAN
here are some logistics of the DR when it comes to sent your compadres back
diga perejil.
subete en ese camion.
make sure you bring all your American ID's next time you show up in DR
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 9:08 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Santa because the hardcore a la pepe32,vacanos,franco do not factor in the economic equation which is significant in my view.
Just imagine DR Haitian free 1st,2nd,3rd,4th generation born included.
The border is sealed a wall elevated, you have just lost access to your natural overland 2nd trading partner. I am for all the above, in order to call these nationalist bluff. Interestingly enough the nationalist need the haitians and these remote random act of violence to champion their cause, sound like blackmail and intimidation to me.
Haitians migration are a problem that need to be addressed with cool head a combination of pepe and dagtan plan to me is reasonable. Why your government does not seem to care or will not do anything about it, for christ out loud it's not rocket science , the lawmakers need to vote these resolutions into law, and the law to be enforced by the state sound simple enough.I ponder if there are some ulterior motives that are not yet analyzed.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 9:23 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Funny when you talk about that bluff you don't seem to understand that while DR would suffer (I am aware of that ) in the long run it will be better off while adding over a million more mouths to Haiti will just cause it to explode making the Haitian slave revolts look tame because this would pit Haitian against Haitian in an unparalleled blood frenzy .We would really have to station the whole armed forces on the border to contain any spillover into DR. So calling our bluff will not destroy us but in the long term it would render Haiti uninhabitable.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 9:23 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio,everyone knows that a certain amount of Haitians are needed for the economy ,the crux of the issue is how many are needed from DR's point of view.The ones that are coming to work are needed but there is not enough work for all those currently in DR and many are in the street begging or worse.
Again the question is how many would you or Dagtan or anyone say is reasonable?,nobody (well not most ) is calling for mistreatment or random actions,what is needed is an organized and concerted effort ,but this is DR and we are not known for organization.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 9:36 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Pepe, start a writing campaign, join a political party to get your point across, by me agreeing or disagreeing with you in this forum does not advance your cause in any shape of form. I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavour and the monumental taks ahead, remember action speak louder than word piti
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 9:47 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Frankly, I do not know Pepe I wish I had the answer, the fact remain the day after they are granted citizenship DR will be darker by that percentage big deal for a country that is majority mulatto.
Written by: Pepe32, 22 Oct 2009 10:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio ,I now that you and I can't change anything in this forum but I am involved in Dominican politics (holding my nose) and trying through that arena but believe it or not coming into a forum and arguing these points opens one up to different ideas and if one only deals with people who think the same you will never know what the other side is thinking because bottom line compromises have to be made .
The question was for anyone who is more amenable to Haitians in DR to state what quantity DR should accept because some people say 0 and to some others we should legalize all Haitians in DR .My number is based on what I think the Dominican economy needs and what the country can handle without collapsing under the weight.
By the same token Haitians should push Clinton and Carter since they say they want to help Haiti to support some more visas for Haitian nationals which would help Haiti and DR.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Oct 2009 11:27 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Great I think DR should work with Haiti, the us, canada and france for this repatriation to occur. I beleive the old arkatype suggested french guyana as an option this country is huge and empty
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Damn right.
Now for the poor Dominican who cannot enjoy the fruit of their hard labor in this part of our country. Yes you got robbed this government will not do anything for you and will look at you guys with indifference. It is a sad reality. Now lives with it next time you see them invading your property you know what to do. We don't have a Trujillo with all his flaws and they were BIG, Dominicans people he took care in this aspect.
Additionally, let me you tell something else, Haitians make the life a living hell for the "blancs" who attempt to do business in Haiti.
The dominican arrested went to haiti to get back their livestock stolen by haitian nationalist.
LIO-NEL FDEZ HISTORY WILL JUDGE YOU VERY VERY HARD, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE HANDLE.
Now, it is the time to be serious and to fix things. Therefore, you can decide to join us in the border control effort or you can still keep delusionning yourself while continuing to trashing us.
"so called invasion"?!!
The word "Invasion" ceased to describe the Haitian tidal wave ten years ago. This "border control effort" by the Haitians is nothing more than a response to the current merchant import/export dispute(s).
What worries me even more is that this could be a pretext to refuse future re-entry of the Haitian exodus if and when the DR tries to ship hundreds of thousands back.
I'm sure Oupala likes this, he doesn't want even a portion of the millions repatriated.
im not making things up. if i do something stupid here in the usa they gonna go after me, so i try to abide by the law my son.
the u.s. send 200 dominican back every month. these people got what they deserve.
we should be doing the same, but instead we let them cross the border we their pregnant women and their sick children to use our much needed health system. i've never heard of american opening the border for the mexican, have you?
Stop talking for nothing and focus instead on reality. What I meant in a broader fashion is if your governement wanted to be serious about border crossing, it should have not only enforced the immigration laws for the merchants, but for all individuals wishing to enter your territory.
If immigration laws were enforced like on the american/canadian border, there won't be any illegal migrant trade between the two countries.
As I said, because it suits some powerful lobby of special interest groups mostly in your agriculture and construction industry, your government prefers to turn its head instead of tackling the problem.
As for liking it, you must shake yourself up my friend because you are still sleeping. I've told you time and time again that if I was the Haitian President, I would have repatriated all my nationals as long as they can prove that they are Haitians, and then shut down the border tight with no bilateral economic and cultural exchange whatsoever.
Then I stand corrected and apologize for not being aware of your new stance on the Haitian immigration issue (I say "new" because my dislike of you stems from other forum posts). Damn those Oupala imposters! I am glad to be wrong about you.
But can you elaborate on "... as long as they can prove they are Haitian".
Any future stance such as this smells to me like an attempt at appearing to do the right thing while masking the objective of forcing the DR to keep the millions of illegal Haitians that would not budge unless forcibly removed.
I don't think half the Haitians in Haiti can "prove" where they were born.
"I don't think half the Haitians in Haiti can "prove" where they were born."
If you were not stuck glued like an insect on a cameleon tongue with that kind of slurring metaphore, and if you had taken the time to read my posts the same way everyone else does, you would have understood long time ago my stance on the illegal migrants trade matter.
I am not going to waste my time with swollen head and ego people who think they can miss Haitians respect at will, but are always ready to take it in the butt or on the chin whenever the yankee throw any kind of humiliation at them. So I am going to answer your question for now, but next time you want to have a decent conversation with me, do the approach like a civilized person and not like a peasant.
This being said, let me explain to you the sentence "as long as they can prove that they are Haitians."
Internationally speaking, in case you didn't know or forgot it there are two law that are used in order to define someone
However, if I recall well, I don't think your government issues birth cirtificate to all Haitian born on its territory. So how do you want us to legally accept those fellow if your government wants to get rid of them. We will gladly accept them after the Dominican compensates the Haitian state monetarily for taking care of its citizens, even though they are of Haitian origins.
Furthermore, I think it is a racist policy not to issue birth certificate to citizen of Haitian decent born on your territory. Don't you have a score of Dominican nationals
My friend you better get rid of the picture you have drawn inside your head about Haiti and its citizens, for it is not because our country looks like a war ravaged one and its people like a bunch of war refugees that you must think that we are some kind of Cro magon race. We have influenced every culture in Latin america even in the United States. The only thing they no one will admit it. You the Dominicans for instance, where do you think that your Merengue come from?
First of all, I was referring to your stance on Illegal Haitian immigration, NOT the "trade matter". Second not everyone takes the time to read your posts. I happen to reply because it angers me and foolish blabbery needs to be confronted sometimes.
So if the DR repatriated a million drops of the haitian tidal wave back HOME, Haiti would want "compensation... For taking care of its (Dominican) citizens..." You seem to suggest that if every Haitian woman uninvitedly crossed illegally to the DR against Dominican law and gave birth they become legitimate Dominican nationals somehow??! Haiti would deserve compensation??!! This is no imposter, its the one tru Oupala spreading his absuridy!
You are right when you point out that other nationalities have done the same. Though that does not make it right and it is illegal all the same, it is by no measure close to
First of all, I was referring to your stance on Illegal Haitian immigration, NOT the "trade matter". Second not everyone takes the time to read your posts. I happen to reply because it angers me and foolish blabbery needs to be confronted sometimes.
So if the DR repatriated a million drops of the haitian tidal wave back HOME, Haiti would want "compensation... For taking care of its (Dominican) citizens..." You seem to suggest that if every Haitian woman uninvitedly crossed illegally to the DR against Dominican law and gave birth they become legitimate Dominican nationals somehow??! Haiti would deserve compensation??!! This is no imposter, its the one tru Oupala spreading his absuridy!
You are right when you point out that other nationalities have done the same. Though that does not make it right and it is illegal all the same, it is by no measure close to
An let me not even address your comment about OUR merengue. I'm sure the rest of the members will give you a piece of their mind on that one.
Oupala,you do not qualify as Cro Magnon and your paragraph above illustrates the worst part of Haiti a Sh't hole full of backwards "people" who somehow think they are great and that the world should thank Haiti when in fact most of the world looks at Haiti and just shakes their heads .Haitians are not equipped to run anything ,least of all a nation and the best thing to happen would be to make the UN involvement long term so that maybe the savages can evolve in 2 or 3 generations to the level of a third world country.
Merengue Tipico (real Merengue) cannot be compared to any Haitian music though we do have music from other regions (Palos,Salves) that are like Haitians very African .
Please become President Oupala and take all your countrymen (by HAITIAN LAW and your words) Jus Soli and Jus Sanguini are both valid in HAITI so the whole 2 million are yours to have and to keep and to feed mud pies and whatever the UN gives you but be careful for they will try to kill you and you will have to resort to extreme violence which is the only method known to work with your people.
http://www.listindiario.com/app/article.aspx?id=86779
http://www.listindiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=86811
He must be getting a fat a*s salary from those NGO's!
But I guess its desperate measure when trying to talk sense to Oupala.
Pepe, that's harsh. True - but harsh. But true :)
Santana33, you are worst than pepe32, for even giving vain credit to his offensive post. pepe32, when you are posting here, you should stick to an objective argument and refrain from personally attacking others, this is something that you do often, specially when you do not have any objectivity to post.
I am extremely happy that haiti is doing this, since it might actually wake up the masses in the DR, that migration control is indeed possible. Why isn't the DR stopping illegal migration by developing a set of post and become pain in the assess like the haitians when it comes to foreigners.
I feel like the haitians know our laid back behavior and looking up to government mentality that we suffer from. Once gain our colonial mind is winning the battle against the 21st century independent mind that it is necessary to end this situation.
Somehow in the left wing radical dictionary truth (especially in reference to pet projects like Haiti) are offensive yet similar or worse things said by this poster about DR are "honest opinions" ,perhaps he feels in his deluded and elitist mind that being born Dominican gives him the right to minimize any Dominican accomplishment while he makes the Haitian population innocent of all their shortcomings .
It is understandable that a school principal from the ghetto's of NY infected with the afrocentric illness would side with the Haitians over his own supposed countrymen because for racists like these the first consideration is the African race and if an afrodescendant screws up ,it must be the fault of some European or eurodescendant and since Dominicans will not accept the "truth" of DR being an African nation we must be the evil ones vis a vis Haiti .
Dominican Elites are the main problem followed by the Dominican population followed by
Good luck with Haiti Cherie,but hands off República Dominicana !
Wow..Pepe32 I wanna share a little something that I have learned over the year. Any momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a phyrrhic victory. It is more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions without being uncivil.
WHAT DID pepe32 Say? Can someone please make sense of what he is saying?
ONCE AGAIN, PEPE32, YOU WROTE FIVE POSTS AND WAS NOT ABLE CONVAY ANY CONCRETE IDEAS. PLEASE RE-WRITE THE POSTS, AND I WILL BE ABLE TO READ THEM AGAIN SOMETIME THROUGH OUT THE DAY.
OH and yes, from my comfy office.
perhaps he will get a Nobel prize too since the requirements have been lowered to the floor.
If you have nothing to say it's because you little left wing brain can only repeat mantras but knows nothing of free thought. Oupala is a mental retard and says idiocy after idiocy yet .
He has a "Haitian like " trait when he comments that he is writing from his comfy office which is not verifiable as we know in an anonymous forum and which if actually true does not make his arguments any more or less valid.Such is the argument of those that have nothing real to say and that somehow in his deranged mind he thinks he is the only one with an office .
This imbecile puts down everything Dominican ,in none of his posts does he say anything positive about DR yet his view of Haitians is one of solid defense even when it is indefensible.Oupala is understandable as an admitted Haitian but if Dagta
To Stan Earl ,I do not feel any sense of victory because the reality on the ground has not changed all.
The topic of this thread is the hypocrisy of Haitian officials and their supporters in this forum (and the Jesuits and NGO's) that cry bloody murder when the DR enforces it's migratory laws yet say nothing about Haiti's actions.
Bottom line in legal terms the Dominican Republic has the legal right to deport over 90% of the Haitians in our territory
Dominican Republic cannot stand much longer (worse in this economic climate) the burden created by said Haitians
Dominican Republic is first in line in requesting aid for Haiti because anyone with decency and a sense of justice knows Haitians do not bring anything worthwhile t
How many of them reimburse the DR for our expenditures on Haitian nationals?
How many of these nations turn back Haitians without blinking an eye ?
All a bunch of hypocrites that decry Dominican "actions" towards Haitians yet when it comes to their own countries show that they don't want Haitians either.
It all boils down to the DR having to be burdened with it's worst and most persistent enemy from the foundation of the Republic and that is unheard of in the annals of history ,that's why only people with no real active connections to DR culture and usually infected with the twisted and racist ideas of Afrocentrism push for DR to absorb their Haitian "brothers " (maybe like Cain) in their twisted idea that we should cease to exist as DR and become one with Haiti (obviously with Haiti's Afrocentric ideology on top)
Demographically Dominicans would be overwhelmed in any such union
Duarte is reviled by Haitians as is anyone who has stood in the path of Haitian hegemony over the whole island while we have NEVER invaded Haiti.Some say these poor Haitian peasants are not an invasion force yet the reality is that they are and continue to be Haitians and no country that considers its future allows another group (whomever they may be) to overpower them without a fight and that is exactly what DR is allowing because when Haitians reach 30% to 40% of the population it will be too late to correct without massive amounts of blood and sacrifice.
So we can either react now while it can still be done in a civilized manner or we can let the sh_t hit the fan and let their voodoo demons sort them out later.
I bet you the politicians of today would not do what DUARTE did, selling all his valuable to buy weapon to fight the haitians and ultimatelly defeating them.
That is love for our country.
I stand by my comment. I do not applaud Pepe's insults of Haitians (unless he is directing them specifically at Oupala).
Let me be clear, I agreed when Pepe said that violence is the only method known to work. I would like to see you suggest a realistic non-forceful way to remove illegal Haitians from the DR. Because we all know that we cannot just politely ask them to go home. If something doesn't happen soon, I fear there will be violence and unfortunately the sad truth is that this is the only way that they will leave.
And you are so naive to think anything Haiti does to "protect" their borders will "wake up the masses in the DR that migration control is indeed possible"?? WHAT?! Are you suggesting that Haiti can show us how to keep Haitians out by us seeing how they protect THEIR border from foreigners?
Pepe might have used 5 posts to try to get his ideas across, maybe he was a bit wordy but he makes valid points if you actually read it before replying.
Msjersey all that Duarte mentality is good, but it won't serve you no purpose today, because your Gov is to busy tryng to look good for the big power.
Pepe32 to say that some of us are against DR it's ludicrous, We don't really have to agree with everything that happen in this world; people are in title of their opinion. .We are against the double standards and the injustice being serve to the Haitian but it doens't make any of us a traitor or (DR haters). Imagine yourself in theirs shoes, wouldn't you want someone to fight for your cause. I ll suggest you come up with a solution to stop the maddness without violence
It is reasonable to assume that there will always be a pocket of illegal foreigners in every country. This can "fly under the radar" but when you have MILLIONS, to the extent that they are a calculable portion of a total population, a visible pie in a pie chart, THAT will not fly and problems will ensue.
You seem to understand that the only way is to "round em up" but if the government does not "see fit to deport them back to Haiti" then we are sitting on an increasingly unstable time bomb.
I do not hate Hatians or any one ethnic groups, race, etc. but I do HATE the situation we're in. I am sympathetic to all human suffering and as I have said before on these forums, as good neighbors we need to help Haiti when we can and where we can WITHOUT compromising the DR and its legitimate population. Dominican Republic FIRST, everyone else a distant second. Illegal Haitians fall into the "distant second" category.
Neither I, nor Pepe, nor the intellectually-challenged Oupala can effect any change in any direction but as a proud Dominican I believe that anyone with an opinion contrary to the DR's best interests need to be confronted - even if its merely on this forum.
Is it Dominican Today or the Tower of Babylon Today ????
"I am faced in this forum by people who have no real connection to DR and with a condescending attitude to what is "supposedly" their own country yet they defend Haiti and Haitian interests to an extreme and any Dominican with blood in their veins does not like this" .
Pep32, what is interesting is that some of these people that you refer above actually contribute to the DR more than you, both intellectually and monetary. They just do not think as radically as you, so stop the bloodbath, because it does not take anywhere.
It is amazing how you can simply come on here and openly delcare those of us who advocate for a comprehensive solution that is based on mutal respect and application of human rights laws as bloodless dominicans who do not care for the well being of the country. You make these assertions without knowing if any of those people have investments, family and other connections to the country that contributes more than your blinded nationalism.
As long as I have breath I will do whatever is in my power to counter any moves from these traitors be it in public forums or donations to political forces that support real acti
Statements like this are pulled from your anal orifice because you don't know who I am nor what I do just like I don't know if you are in an office or sitting in a basement collecting welfare.
Bloodbaths are many times produced by weakness because your "solution" is to lay blame on all except the Haitians and the base reality is that the problem is the close to 2 million Haitians and discussing the why and who is to blame does not change the reality of the solution which is to deport the vast majority and leave only those that are needed by DR.
Your attitude is not that of an unbiased observer and that is why you will generate hostility from the Dominican side ,because your bias is obvious and it is Anti -Dominican! In none of your posts do you have anything positive to say about DR somehow you feel that crapping on DR is your contribution or that you being an enlightened soul can somehow teach us savage Dominicans how we should do things...
Most of us know the strengths and weaknesses of out country and we continue to work to improve her but you don't sh
The UN would face close to 2 million refugees and total chaos as the nation that keeps Haitians like slaves and mistreats them sends them back to paradise AKA Haiti Cherie.
Any Dominicans that feel Haitians are our brothers can be provided with free one way transit to Puerto Principe and a signed renunciation of their Dominican citizenship free of charge.
Dominicans would no longer mistreat any Haitians (there would be none except some elites) so the NGO's and the Jesuits could leave and anyone that wants to "help" Haiti could go right to the source to help them.
Dagtan,
Wanting to oust an uninvited tsunami of foreigners that now comprise AT LEAST 10% of the DRs population (based on conservative estimates) is NOT radical blinded nationalism!!
What do you mean by a "comprehensive solution"? How can you or any proud Dominican not "comprehend" that our nation cannot absorb 1MM+ non-contributing foreigners? What "solution" other than massive deportation would make things right for DOMINICANS?
Human Rights?! It is NOT any human's right to walk onto another sovereign country's territory! And if YOU like this so much, you must be Hatian, or an investor widening your profit margins by exploiting cheap Hatian labor or a government official getting paid by someone who is!!
The system in a perfect political arena will be developed and agreed upon by both sides, however, this does not happen all the time, so one side must be determined to engage the other side first. There is no evidence that the DR has engaged Haiti, since it is clear that haiti is not willing to work on such plan at this time.
Second: The DR needs to start working on making sure that the DEFICIT THINKING IS REJECTED at all cost and no one in the negotiations or at the government level should allow,
This system should be founded on the basis of respect and recognition of human rights laws, this will help the DR carry out an effective and efficient deportation system in which repeater offenders will be prosecuted under the law and those who are able to gain legal documentation will be protected as dominicans are on their homeland.
Moreover, the economical burden that will be undertaken by the DR government should be shared by both sides, even is haiti refuse to pay, the DR should hold them responsible for such sums of monies and use that as leverage to re-engage diplomatically,
Finally, the haitians that are able to prove that they have been working and not getting into trouble or committing crime should be given especial amnesty so they can continue to progress and be integrated into the mainstream society. Moreover, those haitians of mixed parents should be granted they citizenship without question and those who have been born on national territory should be given their rightful rights as well. This is not only ethically and morally correct, but a political victory for the DR at the national and world level.
second finally, i will ask for the haitians who remain in the DR legally and those that were born there no less than to be given the same respect,
Dominicans back home and some here who do not feel attach to the U.S. for what ever reasons, should pause and ask themselves, what would have been of my life if I was treated the same way that I (assuming) support the way that haitians are treated back home. This goes for both legal and illegal Dominicans, just the legal and illegal haitians back home. I do not want the DR to extend one more rights than the rights that i demand of the Americans as an immigrant.
Third finally, do not use the same old lame excuse, that the two countries are not the same. many Dominicans here fare the same way as haitians do back home and they demand their rights and there are people making sure that those rights are met or at least respected. Some of you here it seems to me have never face an american xenophobs and heard them talk about our people. WATCH SOLEDAD OBRIEN TODAY AND
I agree with everything you wrote until this;
Finally, the haitians that are able to prove that they have been working and not getting into trouble or committing crime should be given especial amnesty so they can continue to progress and be integrated into the mainstream society.
**This is subject to debate and it should depend solely on Dominican criteria and the needs and benefits to Dominican society or not and if we determine deportation is what we want we would be in our right as a sovereign nation to do so.
***Nothing is without question ,although in most cases if at least one parent is a Dominican citizen then the spouse or children can acquire Dominican citizenship through the proper channels.
and those who have been born on national territory should be given their rightful rights as well.
*** this is the biggest apple of discord and will cause the most commotion because it would be setting a bad precedent and rewarding them for breaking the law so in most cases if their parents are Haitian nationals they are by Haitian law Haitian citizens and entitled to the rights as Haitian nationals . It will also guarantee that a massive amount of Haitians remain in DR and most Dominicans feel that would be bad for DR so I would say no way on this one.
This is not only ethically and morally correct, but a political victory for the DR at the national and world level.
***The ethics of it are debatable and the morality of it is ludicrous especially when many of those that speak of this morality support totally immoral positions abortion,homosexuality,Che Guevara etc. so you either recognize that morality has different interpretations or you don't get any agreement.
A political victory among people from one side of the equation who would be just as happy if DR submitted to their whims but though some of the points are good the others are either marginally acceptable or not at all.
Please don't use the same lame comparison between DR and Europe or the US because the situations are radically different in scope,historical context ,percentage of population ,income,education etc. to the point that many Dominicans agree that the US and Europe are entitled to deport Dominicans and anyone else in their country illegally . European nations and the US are also not facing an immigration tidal wave that reaches close to 20% of their population from a historical enemy so no the situations are not the same and any Dominican knows that .
I hope the new constitution
From: Dominican Republic
adopts a strict jus sanguini and closes this legal loophole,because bottom line DR may be able to take in 50 to 100,000 Haitians at the most and the rest would have to be deported in coordination with the UN .
"
Is this a realistic proposal ? ..... Pepe32/ ondevert grow up you are still the same old dinausor. Prisoner of his own upbringing,ideology, ,blind with bigotry, hate ,unrealistic dream and delusion.
Sadly the principle of evolution does not apply to your species, picture perfect of the half illiterate fool, I debated years ago.
You don't want us on your soil, I've already told you that it is fine with me, but after sending every single one of my countrymen and women living in your land back home, don't forget to shut down the border too, and to cancel all bilateral trade. Like that we could use the more than 500 millions dollars we're dumping into your economy to care for our people.
Coward always have loud mouth, and they love to pick on weaker foe, because they're sure to win. You better watch out to not make some bad miscalculation my friend, because you know pretty well that we Haitians have nothing to prove to the world.
I am hopeful that this issue will be resolve and that some of my ideas will make it to such resolvation of issues. It is an unfortunate situation and I believe that if it when this happens, both nations will be benfited and affected by the closure of the borders.
I agree with oupala07, once the situation is resolved, those borders need to be sealed and build walls ala Israel, so that this does not happen again. I am totally against illegal immigration, even though my country men and women migrate illegally in high numbers to other countries.
Finally, by sealing the borders, the haitians will be forced to fend for themselves and move forward without the constant marginalization that they face in the DR. And we in the DR will finall
Sometimes I really feel out of place around, since I try to offer the most objective and passion detached posts, while people (typical of of my people) have not being able to rid themselves of the ills of passion and emotions when they are debating.
The number one rule in higher education is DO NOT WRITE OR SPEAK WITH YOUR HEART, ALLOW THE BRAIN THE BRAIN TO DO YOUR WRTING AND SPEAKING, FOR THE HEART IS BLIND AND UNREASONABLE.
And you antonio (two faced piti) how many Haitians is realistic in DR ,how many backwards people can we absorb according to your "realistic" point of view.
The idiot Dagtan comes in to dictate what he in his leftist bent thinks and he expects in his inflated ego that it should be done as he says but of course that would mean that most Haitians in DR would stay and anyone thank thinks that most Dominicans feel this way is deluding themselves .
Keep delaying and you will get what you want traitor ,a chance to call us barbarians because when the government avoids doing what is necessary the general population will take matters into their own hands .
You are so detached from the Dominican Republic in you little glass house that you don't have an idea of what most Dominicans think about
You are correct about one issue ,we are a very hospitable people but even the most hospitable people get fed up by people who abuse their hospitality .We are even hospitable to people that deserve no hospitality from us but when forced to choose between Haitian interests and Dominican interests we will always choose DR which is the exact opposite of vendeapatrias like you.
At least antonio and the retard oupala are defending their country and its interests and that is respectable but you don't care if DR goes back 50 to 100 years because you don't care about DR at all.
"Is there not some chosen curse, Some hidden thunder in the stores of heaven, Red with uncommon wrath, to blast the man Who owes his greatness to his country's ruin? "
And Dagie ,if the shoe fits wear it for you and your condescending nature are just hypocritical in your berating of DR while your defense of Haitian positions is valiant.
You do not like any of you points contradicted because you think yourself the sole proprietor of truth ,in other words you are full of yourself .
When posed with contradictions to any point you react against the writer instead of the idea yet you can't take a response in kind .Go to DR more often and speak to the people with honesty and ask them how they feel about the flood of Haitians in DR ,ask them if these Haitians should be given rights as Dominican citizens ,if you ask them in a sincere manner you will find that you are totally lost and as most liberals that only talk to liberals your glass house will shatter for while you live in the US and view this in a theoretical manner these people live it day to day.
And only Oupala would ridiculously suggest that sealing off the border benefits Haiti - you can't take of your people without food, Einstein! Where do you think they buy most of it from!!
Pepe is NOT the fringe minority but is vocalizing what MOST Dominicans desire. And it is NOT "ethnic cleansing". Ethnic cleansing would be killing off legitimate Dominicans of Haitian descent. This would be REPATRIATION and removal of millions of unwanted foreigners!
"The basics of a comprehensive system is human rights" - I am not saying to violate any person's human rights, they can be humanely removed. I am against granting civil rights to millions of uninvited foreigners.
I agree that the DR should be the one to engage Haiti on the topic.
But everything that you posted after that would be to the benefit of Haitians not Dominicans and to satisfy the likes of Clinton and Carter who do not care for our history nor the desires of the DOMINICAN people.
A political win? You would sell out the blood of our forefathers for a political win?!
How much food did we use to buy from you under the Duvalier regime? I can't waste my time with pea soup brain like you, because you can't even understand that the reason why we buy from you is not because you are essential to our survival, but just because it costs us less.
If we shut down the border, we can either use the more than half a billion dollars we are wasting in your economy and either revamp our agriculture industry or buying it in Cuba or jamaica or South America. And then you'll ask your government why the poverty leverl has risen due to that shortfall.
I don't expect your rat brain to comprehend the basic of economics, so I can easily forgive underachievers like you and move on.
A el tal antonio lo conozco de los foros de Topix donde hay una mayoría Haitiana y este se caga_a sobre la RD pero aquí como buen piti traicionero viene como oveja mansa.
Dagtan es otro que nunca ha escrito nada positivo sobre la RD ,pero si le tocan los Haitianos se vuelve una fiera .Este habla de derechos humanos pero se olvida de los derechos de los Dominicanos a nuestra soberanía y a dedicar nuestros escasos recursos a nuestro pueblo pero es obvio que este tipo no solo dejo la RD de manera física sino que ya no tiene nada de Dominicano y que no le duele nuestro pueblo. Pero ya encontró la tusa de su cu_o porque no le voy a dejar pasar sus tonterías sin respuesta!
Now none of this would matter to me except for the fact that you are in a Dominican forum spewing your excrement.
Of course it costs less! That is the basics of economics, getting it from a few hundred miles away means fresher food with low transport costs. DUH!! Refuse to buy from us and you are paying more to get it over the water??!! Statements like that are a testament to your intelligence and economic sense.
And you are obviously guessing your facts - import food from CUBA???!! ...... Cuba IMPORTS food, genius.
Unless you can subsist on sugar and yams you can forget Jamaica, too.... that leaves you with South America at a higher cost. But mostly you need rice, milk and eggs and there is nobody that can export those to Haiti in sufficient quantity, nevermind least cost.
No surprise that with this intelligence you dare to say the DR's poverty levels will rise if millions of Haitians return home. Wow.
jinetero, nunca dejas de mantenerme entretenido.
This just happened in DR
I don't blame them for what have been done, is called dominican justice, if you don't like it, go home.
just like the Americans say.
http://www.almomento.net/news/127/ARTICLE/44825/2009-10-22.html
dicen por ahi que josean y dagtan fueron dos de los que se escaparon.
3 Million is not my own estimate, it is a number that I have seen many others use as their best guess. In my posts I have interchangeable used the conservative estimate of a million and the other suggested (and maybe more realistic) figures of upwards of 3 million depending on the scope of the argument. I believe I denote these figures as such when I use them and they are not MY estimates. I do not think ANYONE knows how many Haitians are in the DR illegally. My personal best guess would be that the conservative estimates are too low just based on how many I see in the different parts of the country I visit. One million would be about 10% of the population, that is not what I see and I think we can all agree it is more than that.
I agree with you completely. I want to be done with this bickering - I am all for a wall and massive deportation.
http://www.lenouvelliste.com/arti....leID=75371&PubDate=2009-10-21
Massive deportation: do not beleive it will ever happened or perhaps not to the scale that will satisfy the nationalist
Sealing of the border: NEVER
wall: I do not know
May DR stay prosper and Haitian gov get their S*&^%t together for a better future for it's people.
Amen. guys let's move on
antonioj
I agree, is a very heinous crime, but is the reality of the situation, people is getting tired and are taking matter in their own hands and more of this type of crimes are going to happen.
don't believe the fairy tales you see posted here by people that don't even live in the island.
Dominicans only have a limited amount of good will and tolerance, there is only limited resources to share with the poor haitians, this is the topic that the afrocentric mob don't understand, it is not a race issue it is a survival of the fittest issue, is people fighting for food and resourses that are not plentiful, this episodes will continue to happen as long as the open border policy continue to be implemented in both sides.
y lo que empeora el asunto son los lambones vende patria como jsean y dagtan que son mas haitianos que boyer y lo niegan, pero para desacreditar a mi patria no cojen brake.
hace que uno le coja odio por vende patria y doble cara
There is no blind nationalism on my part. I can see very clearly a HUGE amount of foreigners in my country and I can see very clearly that Dominicans prefer they not be there. I would hate for this to get to a boiling point (and it seems we are well on our way). Innocent lives will be lost and that will make our country seem worse that what it already is criticized to be.
When you (and others) say "nationalist" you rightfully suggest that the opinion(s) expressed are in favor of Dominicans and their homeland first and foremost, with less regard for others. To label me or anyone else a "nationalist" does not discount our common sense and reasoning behind what we want. It only highlights that we are looking out for Dominican interests before all others.
What are your non-nationalist reasons for wanting massive deportation and a walled border? I find this interesting that you agree but for different reasons
jinetero, nunca dejas de mantenerme entretenido.
Piti ignorante e hipócrita ,por lo menos aprende a escribir en Español .Yo sé lo que escribiste sobre los Dominicanos en el otro foro así es que a mi no me engañas.
Con gente como tu no el excremento me limpiaría porque solo lo cagar_a mas
NOW LETS MOVE SINCE NO PROGRESS IS BEING MADE. I am sticking to my believes and will fight and protest if it is done in way that I do not agree. Therefore, others have the same right to fight and protest if the issue is resolved any different than what they think.
However, at the end of the day, rationality must reign over whatever negotiations that take place. Adn I hope that when if it ever happens, the DR and Haiti can sit down and talk like nations without any preconditions and miconceptions and misperceptions that often hinder a productive exchange. Both side will be winners and loosers as the issue is resolved, that this is the norm, so it should be accepted by both sides.
The winners of such deals are the citizens, the fact that all illegal haitians, what ever number it is, will place their government under tremendous pressure,
As for the DR, now with the haitian scapegoat out of the politcal manual, the people will be able to concentrate in making the government accountable for creating a system where the people can be integrated into the job market and be provided with the necessary health, nutritional, educational, training, housing that it is needed. The people will force the government to do self assessment and think twice about re-chanelling the funds that are to ve used for the good of the people.
Both side will lose, in the sense that I believe relationships will forever be broken and each side will never be able to trust each other again. I do not believe in close borders (diplomatically)
I am not going to say that we do not need haitians, as if we were a type of Asian Tiger in the caribbean. I think that could develop a good solid diplomatic relantionship to the point that one day we could have a student exchange program. We in the DR are still teaching based on the Spanish methods and Haiti uses the French methods, I do not see anything wrong interchanging systems and ideas.
"una cosa es llamar al diablo ,otra cosa es verlo llegar!"
This all sounds good but you do mean AFTER the Hatians go (or are sent) home, right?. I recalled you using the word amnesty once.
NOW LETS MOVE SINCE NO PROGRESS IS BEING MADE. I am sticking to my "believes"
Dagtan Spanish or English no Ebonics either ...BELIEFS
How many Haitians do you feel would be acceptable for the DR to keep? Mind you I say 50,000 to 100.000 although that may be to high.
According to Dagtans premise most would end up staying although we obviously don't need 2+ million Haitians nor can we handle that many so how many guys?
PS why don't Carter and Clinton push for a special visa exemption for Haitians if they have so much "good will" ,it's easy to offer when you expect someone else to suffer the consequences but these two old hypocrites (especially Clinton who's government used to send Haitians back without blinking )
We can also add France ,the creator of this disaster and Canada ,another meddler ,they can each take 666 thousand Haitians each and feed them shelter them and educate them .
Of course this won't happen and the defenders of these charlatans won't ask them to actually do something because in this age of Nobel prizes for "wishing" actions cease to be important.
DAGTAN
here are some logistics of the DR when it comes to sent your compadres back
diga perejil.
subete en ese camion.
make sure you bring all your American ID's next time you show up in DR
Just imagine DR Haitian free 1st,2nd,3rd,4th generation born included.
The border is sealed a wall elevated, you have just lost access to your natural overland 2nd trading partner. I am for all the above, in order to call these nationalist bluff. Interestingly enough the nationalist need the haitians and these remote random act of violence to champion their cause, sound like blackmail and intimidation to me.
Haitians migration are a problem that need to be addressed with cool head a combination of pepe and dagtan plan to me is reasonable. Why your government does not seem to care or will not do anything about it, for christ out loud it's not rocket science , the lawmakers need to vote these resolutions into law, and the law to be enforced by the state sound simple enough.I ponder if there are some ulterior motives that are not yet analyzed.
Again the question is how many would you or Dagtan or anyone say is reasonable?,nobody (well not most ) is calling for mistreatment or random actions,what is needed is an organized and concerted effort ,but this is DR and we are not known for organization.
The question was for anyone who is more amenable to Haitians in DR to state what quantity DR should accept because some people say 0 and to some others we should legalize all Haitians in DR .My number is based on what I think the Dominican economy needs and what the country can handle without collapsing under the weight.
By the same token Haitians should push Clinton and Carter since they say they want to help Haiti to support some more visas for Haitian nationals which would help Haiti and DR.