SANTO DOMINGO.- The Industry and Commerce Ministry (SEIC) announced it will issue the regulation on natural gas prices for motor vehicles in the coming days and that it already issued the first license to install a station for that fuel, to be located in the Las Americas highway, Santo Domingo East.
Salvador Rivas, head of the SEIC non-Conventional Energy Department, said the system to regulate natural gas, in addition to its technical reasons, can serve to facilitate access to bank loans so truckers and bus drivers can finance their own units.
He said the SEIC has worked so the natural gas business develops in an ordinate and regulated manner.
The official said once a vehicle approaches the gas pump, the system’s software verifies if its carburetion equipment and fuel tank are registered in the system, and if they were installed by an authorized shop. “The system verifies it by reading the information in a chip installed in each car equipped for natural gas use which meets the technical requirements and has been adapted in a properly authorized shop.”
From: Dominican Republic, La Romana
Will this CNG be available for the general public and is it also for gasoline engines also? The graphic is only showing a deisel engine.
At what price?
Written by: xwill7, 22 Jul 2009 12:45 PM
From: United States, El cuarto bate
I heard from a taxi driver that it will work on gasoline engines but you need to purchase the conversion kit. I thought that propane did not work on disel? In the picture it shows a GLP tank. lol
Written by: Escott, 22 Jul 2009 4:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
You will also get a shorter life out of your engines which people ignore. They are available for years and it seems like it is quite a dangerous way as well as destructive way to power transportation.
Written by: xwill7, 22 Jul 2009 5:19 PM
From: United States, El cuarto bate
Propane with the safety valve works pretty good. Just have change the spark plugs more often
From: United States
This is NOT propane they're talking about here, is Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) wich is defferent from LPG.
CNG is often confused with liquefied natural gas (LNG). While both are stored forms of natural gas, the key difference is that CNG is in compressed form, while LNG is in liquefied form. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of gasoline or petrol and the use of very high pressures (3000 to 4000 psi, or 205 to 275 bar).
Written by: anthonyC, 22 Jul 2009 6:20 PM
From: United States
Some facts about Propane conversions.
Conversions kits coast $3000 U.S.
They need to be installed by somebody who is meticulous if not you will it will cost you in the long run...if your lucky. If not your vehicle will burn to a crisp.
You will get worse mileage.
You need to change your oil more often. About every 1200 miles.
Your engine will need a head rebuild after 30-40 K miles.
You can't get refueled at any station.
If you run out of fuel you are up the creek.
In reality propane is only worth it for large fleets of vehicles with a centralized service center.
From: United States
Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is a fossil fuel substitute for gasoline (petrol), diesel, or propane fuel. Although its combustion does produce greenhouse gases, it is a more environmentally clean alternative to those fuels, and it is much safer than other fuels in the event of a spill (natural gas is lighter than air, and disperses quickly when released).
CNG is made by compressing natural gas (which is mainly composed of methane [CH4]), to less than 1% of its volume at standard atmospheric pressure. It is stored and distributed in hard containers, at a normal pressure of 200–220 bar (2900–3200 psi), usually in cylindrical or spherical shapes.
CNG is used in traditional gasoline internal combustion engine cars that have been converted into bi-fuel vehicles (gasoline/CNG). Natural gas vehicles are increasingly used in Europe and South America due to rising gasoline prices.
From: United States
analysis of the beneficial effects of shifting to CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) as fuel for vehicles, instead of of power generation plants:
1. Use of CNG as fuel for electric power generation: Since nuclear power plants have become unpopular (due to security fears after 3-Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear power plant accidents), coal burning power plants also became unpopular (due to concerns about global warming), and hydro-electric power generation has almost reached its natural upper limit. 40 years ago the US decided to use CNG as fuel for power plants built in the future. CNG is mostly methane (CH4); when burnt, each molecule of it releases one CO2 molecule and two water (H2O) molecules, so generating power by CNG is only about a third as damaging (in terms of CO2 releases) as generation from coal. Now a significant (about 20%) of our electricity comes from CNG.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Pay attention to CNGDEALER, as he has made the most sense on subject. I can speak with authority on subject as I lead and international team designing, developing and marketing CNG injectors for the OEM automotive industry. A couple of facts he either didn't discuss or wasn't explicit enough:
1) You could project operating cost ~50% that of petrol fuels
2) Inherent high octane rating [~130} makes it ideal for diesel engines as well as turbocharged gasoline engines.
3) There are very abundant reserves of CNG in the world, enough to last more than 100 yrs.
4) CNG is compatible with gasoline engines for kit-retrofitting, but engine life will suffer due to lack of lubricity, particularly intake valves.
5) Expect 10% -15% loss in torque and power in converted gasoline engines
6) Poor cold-startability below 10 C; large amount of H2O from combustion freezes throttle shaft below zero C.
7) Fast growing market
7) You have to flow >700X amount of gasoline due to lower energy density
From: Dominican Republic
Can someone tell me why the DR is not 100% powered by ethinol? I really don't understand why it is not used. The DR sends sugar cane to the USA to be turned into ethinol, so why can't you just make it and sell it here for a fraction of the price of gasoline. The DR could also sell it to other countries like other south american countries do. I have only been here a short while but I really would like someone to explain this to me.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
More on CNG:
1) Iran is major player on CNG vehicle: Iran Kodro
2) Pakistan is also major player for retrofits, with tremendous growth
3) Retrofits growing worldwide much faster than OEM; 4 miilion kits expected by 2012, compared to less than 1.2 million OEM.
4) Europe is also a big player, especially Germany, which may have best infrastructure in world.
5) BRIC block countries also coming on strong, especially China and Brazil.
6) Many countries going the CNG way for: reduced pollution; reduced urban noise; energy independence; reduced overall operating cost.
7)AT&T just made decision to switch its entire fleet to CNG [BAF Technologies of Dallas doing work].
8) In 1st world countries [not DR-LOL] we could use home filling stations and never go back to gas stations
9) Operating pressures: 1st world countries: 7-10 bar and higher; 3rd world: 2-4 bars.
10) High pressures very detrimental to range, because of required high throughput and limited storage capacity.
Enough!!!!
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Tomcasey,
There are various issues with ethanol,not the least of which being cost to produce it. Here in US, it is all political propaganda, as it is costing as much as $1.50 to produce $1.0 gallon of a fuel that can be corrosive and lead to other engine problems. Your driving range is also dramatically reduced.
However, if DR could emulate Brazil and use bagasse as a source of energy to extract the fuel, instead of other fossil fuels such as propane, CNG, diesel, etc., then it could prove cost-effective.
Bring back the ingenios and manual labor to harvest sugar cane. My only concern would be that all that extra alcohol could put Brugal out of business, and many of them are personal friends, so I wouldn't want that to happen.
Overnight, DR could really have a severe drinking problem-think about it.
Written by: anthonyC, 22 Jul 2009 10:40 PM
From: United States
Glomar.
Street cars with Turbo-Charged engines run low compression engines so Hi-Octane is of no benefit.
CNG/Propane is only practical for fleets.
Ethanol is an economic and enviromental joke.
FYI do not attempt to run your car on anything with more than 10% ethanol.
From: Dominican Republic
I know in the US they do not use heat to produce ethanol. Also they put a little gas in the mix so if you drink it you would die. I am from Georgia and we have started placing plants all over the state and they use whats called pine tops (limbs and needles of the pine tree) to produce vast quantities of ethanol. I just don't know why it is not done here. A simple filter change is all that is required to put it in your gas tank and go. Trust me even if you could drink it and not die you would not want to.
http://www.rangefuels.com/range-f....sic-ethanol-plant-in-georgia.htmlhttp://www.rangefuels.com/From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
anthonyC,
Compared to compression ignition [CI] engines, gasoline engines are relatively low compression, typically around 9:1 with some high performance naturally aspirated engines running at 11:1 or so. Latter, high performance, are considered high compression and require premium fuel and higher octane. Turbocharging can boost compression ratio to 13:1 or slightly higher and also require higher octane fuels, in general.
CI engines can generally run up to 25:1 or higher compression ratios, which is considerably higher than that of gasoline engines. Everything is relative and the higher end of spark ignition engines [SI] are considered high compression compared to lesser ones; however, compared to diesel they are relatively low.
On CNG practicality, your statement would only be correct in areas without fueling infrastructure; it is not true in Germany and Italy, or in Pakistan and Iran. It is also not true here in NY, as long as vehicle is used for commuting purposes.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
tomCasey,
You offer what is effectively a private ad, and you missed this important fact in article:
"Its innovative and proprietary technology transforms .. products such as wood chips, agricultural wastes, ...... into ethanol through a thermo-chemical conversion process. The company's system, K2, uses a two step process to convert biomass to a synthetic gas and from there, convert the gas to ethanol."
Operative word is: "thermo-chemical", meaning heat input-which clearly must come from sources previously cited by me. Also, the dual conversion to synthetic gas, then to ethanol inherently involves efficiencies loss and commensurate cost.
Please visit:
http://zfacts.com/p/60.htmlLastly, article states that "one day they forsee a $1/gal cost for ethanol thus produced". Question is how much is it costing them to produce it. In US, everything I have seen from SAE to govt alternative energy meetings and symposia suggests process is upside
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
All who wish to learn more about CNG in general and global gravitation to this fuel could visit attached link for the "International Association of Natural Gas Vehicles", of which I am a member in good standing and regular participant and contributor to world conferences, etc.
http://www.iangv.org/BTW, the opening of DR's plant is a featured article in present weekly newsletter and can be accessed from web page.
Have fun.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
AnthonyC,
You wrote: "
Street cars with Turbo-Charged engines run low compression engines so Hi-Octane is of no benefit."
I don't want to get in long dissertation on issue; consequently, I am recommending you go to link below for answer, where you will find following statement [first article: "The basic story on ethanol mileage and cost"]:
"Higher compression ratios make engines more efficient, and because of its high octane, ethanol can take a higher compression ratio. The Bio-power is turbo charged and when it uses E85 it switches to a higher compression ratio"
http://zfacts.com/p/436.htmlWritten by: drliving, 23 Jul 2009 7:51 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Anthony C
someone gave you very bad info about LPG
First of all the kits cost from 550.00 to 1700.00
second your car gets on average about 10% miles per gallon with LPG then fuel but your paying 50% less for gas then gasoline so the savings is great.
third your car does not go bad by using LPG in fact your car runs cleaner and wears out your engine and head gaskets less than gas.
sorry but all your fact were wrong on this story.
Written by: anthonyC, 23 Jul 2009 9:18 AM
From: United States
Glomar,
you wrote "Higher compression ratios make engines more efficient, and because of its high octane, ethanol can take a higher compression ratio. The Bio-power is turbo charged and when it uses E85 it switches to a higher compression ratio"
The VAST MAJORITY ofTurbo-charged cars being manufactured today have low-compression engines. So higher octane is of no benefit.
Written by: xwill7, 23 Jul 2009 10:27 AM
From: United States, El cuarto bate
with the high cost of the conversion kit, only big fleet will use this. Normal taxi and regular drivers will stick to propane. Also, with propane you feel the same power.similar mpg. Also, propane is also cleaner than gasoline.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
AnthonyC,
So we are on same page and avoid circular disagreement, what exactly is your definition of low compression?
From: Dominican Republic
You know glomarexplorer it seems you are in position to make money off this whole CNG thing. The web site you sent me to had a link in the first paragraph to here
http://zfacts.com/p/85.html so it seems that even your source loves what I am trying to tell the reader. This artical seems old becouse I can tell you that comercial production has already begun.
http://www.rangefuels.com/our-first-commercial-plant.html I just don't understand how people like you living in palaces (I.E. Hotel Ambasciatori Palace) are going to convince first the government then the people to change everything they do so that you can make money off of it. I can tell you that people are never going to change there gas tank in for a bomb in the back seat. The cost of what you are telling everyone here is stagering. I hope the reader understands that every aspect of implementing CNG would mean changing the entire distribution system. Which means the stations will have to change along with storage and transport.
From: Dominican Republic
I am not trying to bash you but giving a bunch of techno gobldie goop about compression is the very least of your problems with CNG. Here are some more interesting facts for ethanol. Other than the site you sent me that loves it. LOL
http://www.rangefuels.com/debunking-ethanol-myths.html If Brazil producing Ethanol for .54 cent US a gallon why can't the DR?
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Tomcasey,
I am don't really know what to make of your comments and, frankly, am baffled by them.
Firstly, I am not a peddler or an activist; I am a scientist trying to address CO2 emissions and operating cost reduction-factual ones, as opposed to wishful thinking and "tree hugger" solutions or "pie in the sky" far out concepts.
I have a product that people are literally beating a path to my door to acquire; I could sell every one of them i could make at a premium price.
CNG is mostly methane and plentiful and cheap. We've been using for years for cooking and heating safely and very affordably.
At risk of sounding unintendedly arrogant, I don't need your blessings, opinions or gratuitous and confusing and irrational comments on subject. The facts are what they are and this is a near-term technology that is real, clean and cost-effective, not to mention most abundant.
You can believe what you may; however, facts are what they are. CNG is for real-today!!!!!
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Tomcasey,
You wrote: "I am not trying to bash you but giving a bunch of techno gobldie goop about compression is the very least of your problems with CNG.... If Brazil producing Ethanol for .54 cent US a gallon why can't the DR?"
Did you not see quote below which was included in my first e-mail on subject?
"However, if DR could emulate Brazil and use bagasse as a source of energy to extract the fuel, instead of other fossil fuels such as propane, CNG, diesel, etc., then it could prove cost-effective."
BTW, with USA clearly being a capitalistic society, don't you think that they would immediately move to independence from the Arabs and the hated "Chavez" if they had a viable and cheaper alternative? I believe we would, but we simply don't because it is not real!
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Tomcasey,
Funny thing is that irrespective of ethanol or CNG, I would make money either way as I make injectors for both. Fact is that I market and have various patents for ethanol injectors also. Additionally, two years ago, we released the class-leading "heated ethanol" injector, an absolute requirement for cold startability below 5 C temperature. Almost my entire production volume goes to Brazil, and all of the major players want it-all of them!.
Ethanol does not atomize at such low temperatures and, consequently, an auxiliary fueling system, consisting of a rudimentary small gasoline tank and dedicated injector, is required to start under such conditions. This adds system cost and complexity, a problem set that my injector eliminates.
I am happy either way; however, I recognize, as well as balance of scientific community, that CNG is the better and more sensible option. That's all.
From: Dominican Republic
You are funny. When faced with the facts you seem unable to answer many questions about CNG. I have answered all of your questions now answer mine. How are you going to convince people to put a bomb in there back seat? If the tank is ruptured for any reason it will explode. How will you change the infristruckture to distribute this product. You know you say you are a scientist well I am a high school graduate as i am sure you can tell by my spelling. Now I am sure you will make a big deal out of that but can you answer the questions. You know if your points were valid you would not be affended by me.
From: Dominican Republic
You are funny. When faced with the facts you seem unable to answer many questions about CNG. I have answered all of your questions now answer mine. How are you going to convince people to put a bomb in there back seat? If the tank is ruptured for any reason it will explode. How will you change the infristruckture to distribute this product. You know you say you are a scientist well I am a high school graduate as i am sure you can tell by my spelling. Now I am sure you will make a big deal out of that but can you answer the questions. You know if your points were valid you would not be affended by me.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Tom,
The real problem here is your ignorance.
CNG, being a very light gas, would just escape quickly into the atmosphere without combusting. Explosions would only occurr when in a confined volume and and air/fuel ration of >17, and a spark occurs.
Remember that the USA is the most litigious society on earth, and we have plenty of CNG vehicles here. They have a very safe record, and most state and county governments have CNG fleets, including some school buses and public transportation buses.
Fact is that in an accident, CNG, because of aforementioned attributes, is actually safer than gasoline. Gasoline vapors are very volatile and require an air/fuel ratio of only 14.3 to ignite, which is infinitely easier to reach than >17 [CNG].
From: United States
Wow... Everything Glomarexplorer said is right ON THE MONEY.
I want to thank you, for sharing your expertise and extensive knowlege on the CNG subject.
Cng is the safest form of fossil fuel available.
The U.S. Just signed a bill (The Natural Gas Act):
to encourage manufacturing of natural gas cars and trucks.
The New Alternative Transportation to Give Americans Solutions (NAT GAS) Act would increase and extend tax credits for natural gas vehicles and refueling stations.
"We have an abundant domestic supply of low-emission natural gas that can substantially cut our transportation fleet's impact on the environment," Murkowski said. "Natural gas is not only cleaner than regular gasoline, it's also less expensive."
"Natural gas vehicles show particular promise in urban fleets, such as municipal buses and emergency vehicles, while refueling infrastructure is expanded," Murkowski said.
The NAT GAS Act will encourage and incentivize major expansion in the manufacturing an
From: United States
I drive a Honda civic Gx NGV wich is the cleaner car in the planet!
CNG will serve as a bridge while witth develope other technologies, such as hydrogen wich is stored like natural gas, will use the same fuelling infrastructure as Natural Gas (CNG).
From: United States
Two thumbs Up for the scientist.... You go! Glomarexplorer!
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
CNGDEALER,
Thanks for kind words and let's keep on promoting this clean, plentiful and affordable real option.
BTW, I just flew in an Opel Safira vehicle from Germany for a turbocharged 2.0L engine advanced CNG engine management system development. Vehicle is presently in the cooler, down to -35 C, for cold startability evaluation. Anybody wants to volunteer to go in and start vehicle tomorrow? It is bone-chattering cold in that cold test chamber....sort of like the opposite of conditions of Boca Chica.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
CNGDEALER,
Your own personal vehicle? You have Keihin KNX8 injectors in it. It is a 2.0-2-1/2 bar system [relatively low pressure!]. Operation logic is Peak & Hold, with > 8 A current at initial start to break injector loose form seat. Sealing convention is fluoroelastomer on flat steel seat. Control system is proprietary, but I have it, as well as a boxful of controllers and injectors, etc.
How many miles do you have on vehicle? Is it still under warranty? any problems? Injectors are expensive to replace out of warranty.
I'll make you a difficult to refuse deal: I'll trade you a new set of injectors for your old ones, especially if you have >30k miles on them. Alternatively, I would offer to replace any failed ones with new ones. Please let me know.
BTW, NYS has a fleet of this vehicle of >500, statewide; locally we have 52.
Written by: anthonyC, 24 Jul 2009 1:12 AM
From: United States
glomar
8-8.5:1 compression ratio is what is usual for a turbocharged engine. N/A motors usually are 9-9.5:1
10:1 and over is a High Compression motor
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
anthonyC,
You wrote: "8-8.5:1 compression ratio is what is usual for a turbocharged engine. N/A motors usually are 9-9.5:1
10:1 and over is a High Compression motor"
CR is a means to an end. The important things are: Compressed mixture mass & temperature
Turbocharged applications raise inlet manifold pressure by up to 1-bar or slightly higher. Because piston bore and stroke are fixed, and because of the ideal gas law: PV=nRT [P1*V1/T1=P2*V2/T2], the compressed mixture will reach a much higher pressure [commensurate with boost level, minus pumping losses].
CR is the mechanical side, but what we really care about is the chemical or thermodynamic side, the one that produces power and mechanical work. In effect, even though your mechanical side CR is fixed, you chemical or thermodynamic side CR is increased because your are starting from a higher initial pressure, which would be P-atmosphere plus boost level.
Continues:
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
anthonyC
Continued from above:
The mechanical CR matters only for engine design limitations relative to durability and gasket blowouts, etc. For power, we are mostly concern about the chemical charge, which is augmented by the additional mass of air injected, which allows for a commensurate increase in fuel injected, to produce greater power.
Example-Similar engines with same CR (9:1) and displacements (1.0 L/cyl.); P-atm. 101.3 kPa:
1) Naturally aspirated: chemical compresed pressure: 101.3*9= 912 kPa
2) Turbocharged-1.4 atm.: 101.3*1.4*9=1276 kPa
Final mixture pressure is what's important, because we need to prevent pre-ignition because of corresponding temperature increases, which would create combustion instability. This is precisely the reason why we use higher octane rated fuels.
Hope this helps.
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At what price?
CNG is often confused with liquefied natural gas (LNG). While both are stored forms of natural gas, the key difference is that CNG is in compressed form, while LNG is in liquefied form. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of gasoline or petrol and the use of very high pressures (3000 to 4000 psi, or 205 to 275 bar).
Conversions kits coast $3000 U.S.
They need to be installed by somebody who is meticulous if not you will it will cost you in the long run...if your lucky. If not your vehicle will burn to a crisp.
You will get worse mileage.
You need to change your oil more often. About every 1200 miles.
Your engine will need a head rebuild after 30-40 K miles.
You can't get refueled at any station.
If you run out of fuel you are up the creek.
In reality propane is only worth it for large fleets of vehicles with a centralized service center.
CNG is made by compressing natural gas (which is mainly composed of methane [CH4]), to less than 1% of its volume at standard atmospheric pressure. It is stored and distributed in hard containers, at a normal pressure of 200–220 bar (2900–3200 psi), usually in cylindrical or spherical shapes.
CNG is used in traditional gasoline internal combustion engine cars that have been converted into bi-fuel vehicles (gasoline/CNG). Natural gas vehicles are increasingly used in Europe and South America due to rising gasoline prices.
1. Use of CNG as fuel for electric power generation: Since nuclear power plants have become unpopular (due to security fears after 3-Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear power plant accidents), coal burning power plants also became unpopular (due to concerns about global warming), and hydro-electric power generation has almost reached its natural upper limit. 40 years ago the US decided to use CNG as fuel for power plants built in the future. CNG is mostly methane (CH4); when burnt, each molecule of it releases one CO2 molecule and two water (H2O) molecules, so generating power by CNG is only about a third as damaging (in terms of CO2 releases) as generation from coal. Now a significant (about 20%) of our electricity comes from CNG.
http://www.askchesapeake.com/Barn....onal/Other/Pages/CNGBenefits.aspx
1) You could project operating cost ~50% that of petrol fuels
2) Inherent high octane rating [~130} makes it ideal for diesel engines as well as turbocharged gasoline engines.
3) There are very abundant reserves of CNG in the world, enough to last more than 100 yrs.
4) CNG is compatible with gasoline engines for kit-retrofitting, but engine life will suffer due to lack of lubricity, particularly intake valves.
5) Expect 10% -15% loss in torque and power in converted gasoline engines
6) Poor cold-startability below 10 C; large amount of H2O from combustion freezes throttle shaft below zero C.
7) Fast growing market
7) You have to flow >700X amount of gasoline due to lower energy density
1) Iran is major player on CNG vehicle: Iran Kodro
2) Pakistan is also major player for retrofits, with tremendous growth
3) Retrofits growing worldwide much faster than OEM; 4 miilion kits expected by 2012, compared to less than 1.2 million OEM.
4) Europe is also a big player, especially Germany, which may have best infrastructure in world.
5) BRIC block countries also coming on strong, especially China and Brazil.
6) Many countries going the CNG way for: reduced pollution; reduced urban noise; energy independence; reduced overall operating cost.
7)AT&T just made decision to switch its entire fleet to CNG [BAF Technologies of Dallas doing work].
8) In 1st world countries [not DR-LOL] we could use home filling stations and never go back to gas stations
9) Operating pressures: 1st world countries: 7-10 bar and higher; 3rd world: 2-4 bars.
10) High pressures very detrimental to range, because of required high throughput and limited storage capacity.
Enough!!!!
There are various issues with ethanol,not the least of which being cost to produce it. Here in US, it is all political propaganda, as it is costing as much as $1.50 to produce $1.0 gallon of a fuel that can be corrosive and lead to other engine problems. Your driving range is also dramatically reduced.
However, if DR could emulate Brazil and use bagasse as a source of energy to extract the fuel, instead of other fossil fuels such as propane, CNG, diesel, etc., then it could prove cost-effective.
Bring back the ingenios and manual labor to harvest sugar cane. My only concern would be that all that extra alcohol could put Brugal out of business, and many of them are personal friends, so I wouldn't want that to happen.
Overnight, DR could really have a severe drinking problem-think about it.
Street cars with Turbo-Charged engines run low compression engines so Hi-Octane is of no benefit.
CNG/Propane is only practical for fleets.
Ethanol is an economic and enviromental joke.
FYI do not attempt to run your car on anything with more than 10% ethanol.
http://www.rangefuels.com/range-f....sic-ethanol-plant-in-georgia.html
http://www.rangefuels.com/
Compared to compression ignition [CI] engines, gasoline engines are relatively low compression, typically around 9:1 with some high performance naturally aspirated engines running at 11:1 or so. Latter, high performance, are considered high compression and require premium fuel and higher octane. Turbocharging can boost compression ratio to 13:1 or slightly higher and also require higher octane fuels, in general.
CI engines can generally run up to 25:1 or higher compression ratios, which is considerably higher than that of gasoline engines. Everything is relative and the higher end of spark ignition engines [SI] are considered high compression compared to lesser ones; however, compared to diesel they are relatively low.
On CNG practicality, your statement would only be correct in areas without fueling infrastructure; it is not true in Germany and Italy, or in Pakistan and Iran. It is also not true here in NY, as long as vehicle is used for commuting purposes.
You offer what is effectively a private ad, and you missed this important fact in article:
"Its innovative and proprietary technology transforms .. products such as wood chips, agricultural wastes, ...... into ethanol through a thermo-chemical conversion process. The company's system, K2, uses a two step process to convert biomass to a synthetic gas and from there, convert the gas to ethanol."
Operative word is: "thermo-chemical", meaning heat input-which clearly must come from sources previously cited by me. Also, the dual conversion to synthetic gas, then to ethanol inherently involves efficiencies loss and commensurate cost.
Please visit: http://zfacts.com/p/60.html
Lastly, article states that "one day they forsee a $1/gal cost for ethanol thus produced". Question is how much is it costing them to produce it. In US, everything I have seen from SAE to govt alternative energy meetings and symposia suggests process is upside
http://www.iangv.org/
BTW, the opening of DR's plant is a featured article in present weekly newsletter and can be accessed from web page.
Have fun.
You wrote: "
Street cars with Turbo-Charged engines run low compression engines so Hi-Octane is of no benefit."
I don't want to get in long dissertation on issue; consequently, I am recommending you go to link below for answer, where you will find following statement [first article: "The basic story on ethanol mileage and cost"]:
"Higher compression ratios make engines more efficient, and because of its high octane, ethanol can take a higher compression ratio. The Bio-power is turbo charged and when it uses E85 it switches to a higher compression ratio"
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
someone gave you very bad info about LPG
First of all the kits cost from 550.00 to 1700.00
second your car gets on average about 10% miles per gallon with LPG then fuel but your paying 50% less for gas then gasoline so the savings is great.
third your car does not go bad by using LPG in fact your car runs cleaner and wears out your engine and head gaskets less than gas.
sorry but all your fact were wrong on this story.
you wrote "Higher compression ratios make engines more efficient, and because of its high octane, ethanol can take a higher compression ratio. The Bio-power is turbo charged and when it uses E85 it switches to a higher compression ratio"
The VAST MAJORITY ofTurbo-charged cars being manufactured today have low-compression engines. So higher octane is of no benefit.
So we are on same page and avoid circular disagreement, what exactly is your definition of low compression?
I am don't really know what to make of your comments and, frankly, am baffled by them.
Firstly, I am not a peddler or an activist; I am a scientist trying to address CO2 emissions and operating cost reduction-factual ones, as opposed to wishful thinking and "tree hugger" solutions or "pie in the sky" far out concepts.
I have a product that people are literally beating a path to my door to acquire; I could sell every one of them i could make at a premium price.
CNG is mostly methane and plentiful and cheap. We've been using for years for cooking and heating safely and very affordably.
At risk of sounding unintendedly arrogant, I don't need your blessings, opinions or gratuitous and confusing and irrational comments on subject. The facts are what they are and this is a near-term technology that is real, clean and cost-effective, not to mention most abundant.
You can believe what you may; however, facts are what they are. CNG is for real-today!!!!!
You wrote: "I am not trying to bash you but giving a bunch of techno gobldie goop about compression is the very least of your problems with CNG.... If Brazil producing Ethanol for .54 cent US a gallon why can't the DR?"
Did you not see quote below which was included in my first e-mail on subject?
"However, if DR could emulate Brazil and use bagasse as a source of energy to extract the fuel, instead of other fossil fuels such as propane, CNG, diesel, etc., then it could prove cost-effective."
BTW, with USA clearly being a capitalistic society, don't you think that they would immediately move to independence from the Arabs and the hated "Chavez" if they had a viable and cheaper alternative? I believe we would, but we simply don't because it is not real!
Funny thing is that irrespective of ethanol or CNG, I would make money either way as I make injectors for both. Fact is that I market and have various patents for ethanol injectors also. Additionally, two years ago, we released the class-leading "heated ethanol" injector, an absolute requirement for cold startability below 5 C temperature. Almost my entire production volume goes to Brazil, and all of the major players want it-all of them!.
Ethanol does not atomize at such low temperatures and, consequently, an auxiliary fueling system, consisting of a rudimentary small gasoline tank and dedicated injector, is required to start under such conditions. This adds system cost and complexity, a problem set that my injector eliminates.
I am happy either way; however, I recognize, as well as balance of scientific community, that CNG is the better and more sensible option. That's all.
The real problem here is your ignorance.
CNG, being a very light gas, would just escape quickly into the atmosphere without combusting. Explosions would only occurr when in a confined volume and and air/fuel ration of >17, and a spark occurs.
Remember that the USA is the most litigious society on earth, and we have plenty of CNG vehicles here. They have a very safe record, and most state and county governments have CNG fleets, including some school buses and public transportation buses.
Fact is that in an accident, CNG, because of aforementioned attributes, is actually safer than gasoline. Gasoline vapors are very volatile and require an air/fuel ratio of only 14.3 to ignite, which is infinitely easier to reach than >17 [CNG].
I want to thank you, for sharing your expertise and extensive knowlege on the CNG subject.
Cng is the safest form of fossil fuel available.
The U.S. Just signed a bill (The Natural Gas Act):
to encourage manufacturing of natural gas cars and trucks.
The New Alternative Transportation to Give Americans Solutions (NAT GAS) Act would increase and extend tax credits for natural gas vehicles and refueling stations.
"We have an abundant domestic supply of low-emission natural gas that can substantially cut our transportation fleet's impact on the environment," Murkowski said. "Natural gas is not only cleaner than regular gasoline, it's also less expensive."
"Natural gas vehicles show particular promise in urban fleets, such as municipal buses and emergency vehicles, while refueling infrastructure is expanded," Murkowski said.
The NAT GAS Act will encourage and incentivize major expansion in the manufacturing an
CNG will serve as a bridge while witth develope other technologies, such as hydrogen wich is stored like natural gas, will use the same fuelling infrastructure as Natural Gas (CNG).
Thanks for kind words and let's keep on promoting this clean, plentiful and affordable real option.
BTW, I just flew in an Opel Safira vehicle from Germany for a turbocharged 2.0L engine advanced CNG engine management system development. Vehicle is presently in the cooler, down to -35 C, for cold startability evaluation. Anybody wants to volunteer to go in and start vehicle tomorrow? It is bone-chattering cold in that cold test chamber....sort of like the opposite of conditions of Boca Chica.
Your own personal vehicle? You have Keihin KNX8 injectors in it. It is a 2.0-2-1/2 bar system [relatively low pressure!]. Operation logic is Peak & Hold, with > 8 A current at initial start to break injector loose form seat. Sealing convention is fluoroelastomer on flat steel seat. Control system is proprietary, but I have it, as well as a boxful of controllers and injectors, etc.
How many miles do you have on vehicle? Is it still under warranty? any problems? Injectors are expensive to replace out of warranty.
I'll make you a difficult to refuse deal: I'll trade you a new set of injectors for your old ones, especially if you have >30k miles on them. Alternatively, I would offer to replace any failed ones with new ones. Please let me know.
BTW, NYS has a fleet of this vehicle of >500, statewide; locally we have 52.
8-8.5:1 compression ratio is what is usual for a turbocharged engine. N/A motors usually are 9-9.5:1
10:1 and over is a High Compression motor
You wrote: "8-8.5:1 compression ratio is what is usual for a turbocharged engine. N/A motors usually are 9-9.5:1
10:1 and over is a High Compression motor"
CR is a means to an end. The important things are: Compressed mixture mass & temperature
Turbocharged applications raise inlet manifold pressure by up to 1-bar or slightly higher. Because piston bore and stroke are fixed, and because of the ideal gas law: PV=nRT [P1*V1/T1=P2*V2/T2], the compressed mixture will reach a much higher pressure [commensurate with boost level, minus pumping losses].
CR is the mechanical side, but what we really care about is the chemical or thermodynamic side, the one that produces power and mechanical work. In effect, even though your mechanical side CR is fixed, you chemical or thermodynamic side CR is increased because your are starting from a higher initial pressure, which would be P-atmosphere plus boost level.
Continues:
Continued from above:
The mechanical CR matters only for engine design limitations relative to durability and gasket blowouts, etc. For power, we are mostly concern about the chemical charge, which is augmented by the additional mass of air injected, which allows for a commensurate increase in fuel injected, to produce greater power.
Example-Similar engines with same CR (9:1) and displacements (1.0 L/cyl.); P-atm. 101.3 kPa:
1) Naturally aspirated: chemical compresed pressure: 101.3*9= 912 kPa
2) Turbocharged-1.4 atm.: 101.3*1.4*9=1276 kPa
Final mixture pressure is what's important, because we need to prevent pre-ignition because of corresponding temperature increases, which would create combustion instability. This is precisely the reason why we use higher octane rated fuels.
Hope this helps.