Deeds Registry main offices in Santo Domingo.
Santo Domingo.- Former Supreme Court Chief justice Jorge Subero Wednesday said if the bill for the National Property Titling Strategy is approved and enforced by president Danilo Medina, would pose a threat to judicial security and Real Estate Law.
Calling it a serious situation, Subero said the proposed legislation would take the Deeds Registry and Property Jurisdiction out of the Judiciary and pass to the Finance Ministry. “What it means is that those who haven’t registered and finalized their land, the State will initiate a procedure to expropriate them in its name. That is, under the name of the State itself.
"This is unconstitutional. It is unacceptable for the same reasons we have indicated Property Law in the Constitution, "argued Subero.
Medina announced the "National Real Estate Strategy Degree" in his inaugural speech on 16 August.
Expert warns of moot modernization
For the ex director of National Cadastre and legal consultant Ingrid Lavandier, the bill has its positive points but also cautioned against transferring the tasks of the Deeds Registry and Property Jurisdiction to a government agency.
“The fact that the Inter-American Development Bank financed the modernization of the current system with 10 million dollars should sweep away any notion of taking the Deeds Registry out of the Judiciary,” Lavandier said.
Interviewed Thursday by Huchi Lora and Patricia Solano on Telesistema, the real estate legal expert added that the enforcement of the new legislation would be “chaotic” because in her view, “every inch of the national territory has an owner.”
Written by: Atabey, 23 Aug 2012 11:30 AM
From: United States, NYC
The mess surrounding property ownership in DR has got to end. How long must we engage it this on going situation? Getting legal and solid ownership rights is a must, if DR is to grow and prosper. Too many fraudulent documents abound. Time to remove and correct this sad state of affairs. Of course, taxes will go up on property, so get use to paying for a modern system.
Written by: synapse, 23 Aug 2012 11:40 AM
From: United States
This is the best idea I have heard from Danilo because the Judiciary is a highly Corrupt bureaucracy that is a total failure. You watch how efficient the Finance Dept. will be when it come to collecting Property Taxes from all the dead beats that don't pay. They should make property Taxes annual rather than one payment like all civilized countries and auction it off when not paid. It seems that the DR can't do anything on its own with out the help of some international institution solving all of its problems. That is why it is still a Banana Republic.
Written by: dolo1, 23 Aug 2012 12:20 PM
From: United States
Synapse,
You are 100% WRONG.
Just because an idea comes from abroad does not make it a good one. Any idea floated b y the IMF, World Bank, and Inter-Am Dev Bank must always me looked upon with scepticism.
Real estate, once owned should not be taxed at all until a sale or other disposition. DR has it exactly right. The power to tax is the power to destroy. If real estate is taxable simply for holding title, then you dont really own at all, but are simply renting it from the state.
Moving jurisdiction over lands from the Judiciary to Finance is merely the beginning step in the march in an attempt to disposes Dominicans of their lands in favor of foreign banks to whom interest payment on debt owed must be paid. .....what happens once taxes are raised arbitrarily as they are in the US for example ?? People who have properly paid for their property will have it taken .... turning everyone into debt slaves never able to relax in their possession - just like the
From: United States
Dolo1,
You are 100% RIGHT
Is good to once in a while read opinions of informed people.
Political and personal opinion at side, going by history and current world evens, anytime you have the Inter-American Development Bank involve in internal issues of a country with lot of resources like the DR you can be sure is a move to destroy people's rights to own, Especially poor people that don't have the power to fight for their land. The Dominican Republic has a long tradition of corporations coming in to take from the dominican people. I am sure this could mean the beginning of a big modern land grab by international banks and corrupt government, traitors to their country. I just hope that the dominican people still have a bid of Gregorio Luperon in their hearts and fight for their country.
From: Dominican Republic, NEVER FORGOTTEN, NEVER FORSAKEN!
I think this is a good idea, the state should be able to know, and follow up on who owns what and so forth. Subero ISA is an old fart that should be home resting and enjoying the fruit of his bureaucratic fortune. The state should expropiate everything that does not meet what the law precribes. We have people invading land all over the country, owners of farm land fighting invaders in court, we have foreigners invading land as if everything is up for grab.
Put some order Mr President, and prosecute to the fullest those that brake the law.
From: Dominican Republic, NEVER FORGOTTEN, NEVER FORSAKEN!
They are not talking about taxing real estate here, they are talking about making it more efficient by eliminating bureaucracy, getting rid of red tape, taking the responsibility from the judiciary and giving it to the finance ministry.
From: United States, NJ
DON"T-BE_SILENT
Am 100% with you:
For what I see on all these, goes back to Trujillo's Days "if you own a farm either farm it and pay
taxes on it or lose it to the State"!!!
Some as you know, live in leisure in a City and rent out the farms to Haitians who live in it illegal.
consequently avoid taxes of ownership or taxes on the proseeds sold to consumers
I know my Paternal Gand-father lost his land -not to Haitians but to Dominicans who appropiated
his land after living it as "peones" for over 20 years ,So the State decided to give title of ownership
to those that cultivated same.Which I think was a good part in Trujillo's policy.
By so doing he kept the CAMPESINOS in the countryside,producing goods for the CITIES and
keep the city population down consequently no METRO would be needed today.
How else is a community supposed to strive unless taxes are levied on its people?That is the
function of "AYUNTAMIENTOS"
Written by: synapse, 23 Aug 2012 7:45 PM
From: United States
Jose and Dolo
You both should go live in a Banana Republic instead of the USA. If you look around you in the USA, you will see all the benefits of property taxes at work such as schools, recreation, sewers, potable water to name a few.
It appears that Danilo is moving the DR out of being a Banana Republic by attempting to change things that do not work. I suspect that he is setting things up to tax properties to pay for all the services that people are not getting or getting for from only the Sales Tax or Income tax that will never be enough to create a civilized country. I suggest you go back to the DR and wish you lived in the USA again because you have lost sight of what real paradise costs.
Written by: synapse, 23 Aug 2012 7:46 PM
From: United States
Jose and Dolo
You both should go live in a Banana Republic instead of the USA. If you look around you in the USA, you will see all the benefits of property taxes at work such as schools, recreation, sewers, potable water to name a few.
It appears that Danilo is moving the DR out of being a Banana Republic by attempting to change things that do not work. I suspect that he is setting things up to tax properties to pay for all the services that people are not getting or getting for from only the Sales Tax or Income tax that will never be enough to create a civilized country. I suggest you go back to the DR and wish you lived in the USA again because you have lost sight of what real paradise costs.
Written by: Atabey, 23 Aug 2012 10:54 PM
From: United States, NYC
synapse,
"They should make property Taxes annual rather than one payment like all civilized countries and auction it off when not paid."
Even though I stand to pay more in taxes, I agree that property should have to pay taxes on an annual basis. The main reason is that how else would we pay for the vast improvements needed in society?
Modern states need to collect taxes in order to pay the bills for modernization & development. Land and other forms of property are fair game as they generally come from the wealthier sectors of society or those better able to afford taxation. In Puerto Rico I have to pay a small amount, in the hundreds, for a small piece of land my wife inherited from her grandmother. Of course these taxes go to help pay for good roads, garbage collection, electricity and water available.
I've stated it a number of times on DT: Taxation is the price we pay for civilization. If DR wants to leave behind underdevelopment, it must adopt these changes
Written by: Atabey, 23 Aug 2012 11:00 PM
From: United States, NYC
The low taxation tradition comes from the weak Spanish Crown's inability to control their colonial territories. The Crown basically sold off control over taxation and administration in order to get funds to pay off creditors. When the post-colonial period emerged, many Creoles or the winners against Spain, resolved to continue to tax their lower class sectors and give themselves little or no taxation requirements. Vast areas of the economy were off the grid in terms of taxation. DR has been running like many other Latin american states with these old traditions intact. Time to change.
Written by: dolo1, 23 Aug 2012 11:40 PM
From: United States
Synapse, (et al.),
You are 100% Wrong. Take the statist and quasi communistic-fascistic ideology somewhere else.
American and Western economies as we speak are going down the tubes due to such silly ideologies:
Your arguments always start: "....the state.....the state.....blah blah"
How about this principle: A man - his person and property are inviolate.
NO DIRECT TAXATION: the power to tax is the power to destroy: the basis of prosperity is security in possession of real property. Your founding fathers knew this - too bad their principles were tossed and Americans now are little more than debt slaves, serfs, indentured servants.
How to pay for improvements ?
1. most of improvements are not paid for by real estate taxes: that revenue is mostly stolen for inflated salaries for bureaucrats: (see City Hall Any City USA): civil servants who cant hack the private sector with 6 figure pen
2. how about reducing the cost of government - reduce its size and use indirec
Written by: dolo1, 24 Aug 2012 12:01 AM
From: United States
You don't even understand the traditions that keep Latin America behind.
The main one is rapacious corrupt government that stifles innovation and capital formation by entrepreneurs and steals every source of potential revenue it can find. The absence or disrespect of Rule of Law.
Do you really believe that another revenue source for the corrupt government to steal is the answer ??
as it stands, the one readily accessible type of property that the people can get their hands on is a piece of real estate to develop, farm, or but a business, or use for collateral to aid capital formation,,,,, and now you want to create insecurity and impair the value of it by taxing it ??
And because some commie incepted, likely corrupt, statist, neo -colonial banker told it was a good idea ??
Its an awful idea for DR - in particular at this stage of development. You are taking an already poor people and about to make them poorer.....
Written by: Vivacuba, 24 Aug 2012 7:04 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Dolo is 100% correct. Also, given the fact the Dr is a controlled client state of the criminl USA and United Nations it is no surprise what is being attempted. An assault on the citizen to take their assets. Dr, the 157th state of the criminal bankers
Written by: DomRat, 24 Aug 2012 3:39 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Dolo I am with you and your ilk on this, Atebey must enjoy the 'Mother may I' aspects of Statism. Establishing good title is very important function of the state. Long term squatters rights have their place as a method of establishing ownership - If an absentee landowner cannot look over his boundaries once every 5 or 10 years I would guess the really don't need all of it. On the other hand should a squatter be detected there should be a very short end to it. Once title is proven the squatter should have only days to get whatever is their own property off of that of the real owners - after all they had the luxury of living rent free for a period.
If one is to own property then a tax payment along with the registration of the property in their name is appropriate and if delayed there are additional charges as is the case now. To charge year after year is government rental, the definition of ownership is you buy it is yours subject to some reasonable restrictions.
Written by: Atabey, 24 Aug 2012 3:48 PM
From: United States, NYC
DomRat,
"If one is to own property then a tax payment along with the registration of the property in their name is appropriate and if delayed there are additional charges as is the case now. To charge year after year is government rental, the definition of ownership is you buy it is yours subject to some reasonable restrictions."
Please state then how will roads and other improvements be paid for?
Like it or not, DR, as its been the case for many Latin American states, has a low tax environment highly favorable to its wealthier class. Just look around the world and see what relatively good administered taxation has done to formally poor and destitute nation states. Africa has some of the lowest taxed and free environments imaginable on earth. But I guess you would have a very hard time convincing many people to live in these low and no-taxed environments.
Remember: Taxation is the price we pay for Civilization.
Written by: DomRat, 24 Aug 2012 3:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic
At Synapse - Thank you, I chose to live here where I can build my shack the way I see fit and if it blows down tough,.
as for to: Jose and Dolo
You both should go live in a Banana Republic instead of the USA. If you look around you in the USA, you will see all the benefits of property taxes at work such as schools, recreation, sewers, potable water to name a few.
We do pretty well on these here in the DR, if the money collected went where it is supposed to we would have our power bills to the generators paid as well. The people have a right to be left to their own resources to a large degree, to start to take care of them then becomes an issue of where does the modle coddling end and of course who pays for it. I would guess the sale of non renewable resources should pay the largest burden of any public purse as the resources belong to the people in general.
Written by: DomRat, 24 Aug 2012 4:05 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The difference between what is paid for petroleum and what it sells for should take care of the roads both maintenence and construction.. A permanent road crew in every province would take care of most upkeep. Parks and government land inside cities should never be sold for other purposes.
What does the 16% tax goes for? A couple hundred generals and a huge part of the paid police man power rolls, a lot of them may not even exist beyond as a book keeping entry. Schools, I am with you on an educated citizenry is both humane and cost effective for the good of all. Eliminate waste and rein in Government spending.
Written by: synapse, 24 Aug 2012 5:38 PM
From: United States
I am not going to bother with such ignorant uninformed know-it-all comments from Anarchists and Communists who also think the world is going to end tomorrow. I have better things to do.
Written by: dolo1, 25 Aug 2012 12:51 AM
From: United States
when logic fails, make ad hominem attacks, and storm out of the room
Written by: dolo1, 25 Aug 2012 12:53 AM
From: United States
Atabey,
go re read my post on what the real problems facing Latin America are and apply it to Africa and multiply by 10.
Rapacious government who has no respect for Rule of Law and property rights......
Written by: josean, 27 Aug 2012 11:55 AM
From: United States, Fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia; Guillermo Moreno President 2016
All of you have valid points; yes even Atabey with his repetitive "taxation versus civilization" mantra!
However, the primary issue now for most of humanity is like it was for the American Revolutionaries in 1776 TAXATION without REPRESENTATION!
We have no voice on how much we are taxed and even less on how it is spent; dare I say look at the Fiasco with the USELESS METRO!
The abuse of the power of taxation is what is pissing people off all of the world!
From: United States, NJ
josean
We don't have to go as far as 1776.Taxation with out representation is the norm of the so call DR gvt.learned under Trujillo's regime and to their advantage has not been changed back to what it
used to be prior to CHAPITA'S days.
A gvt that claims to be a Democracy ,just because it has free election-yet all the Senators & H.R.
are appointed by the president can not be a democracy ,regardless what party is in power.
Unless this gets changed back to the way it used to be,(provincial autonomy), we will never be properly represented by each and every province in the country and form a true Parliament .Not just by any one that has not lived in those Provinces and know the need of such.
Even Venezuela has Provincial elections and opposition in their Parlament,and Colombia as well,
Talking about the useless METRO as you put it ,what is done is done, lets finish it ,half done is
just as bad as if not done at all,
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The mess surrounding property ownership in DR has got to end. How long must we engage it this on going situation? Getting legal and solid ownership rights is a must, if DR is to grow and prosper. Too many fraudulent documents abound. Time to remove and correct this sad state of affairs. Of course, taxes will go up on property, so get use to paying for a modern system.
This is the best idea I have heard from Danilo because the Judiciary is a highly Corrupt bureaucracy that is a total failure. You watch how efficient the Finance Dept. will be when it come to collecting Property Taxes from all the dead beats that don't pay. They should make property Taxes annual rather than one payment like all civilized countries and auction it off when not paid. It seems that the DR can't do anything on its own with out the help of some international institution solving all of its problems. That is why it is still a Banana Republic.
You are 100% WRONG.
Just because an idea comes from abroad does not make it a good one. Any idea floated b y the IMF, World Bank, and Inter-Am Dev Bank must always me looked upon with scepticism.
Real estate, once owned should not be taxed at all until a sale or other disposition. DR has it exactly right. The power to tax is the power to destroy. If real estate is taxable simply for holding title, then you dont really own at all, but are simply renting it from the state.
Moving jurisdiction over lands from the Judiciary to Finance is merely the beginning step in the march in an attempt to disposes Dominicans of their lands in favor of foreign banks to whom interest payment on debt owed must be paid. .....what happens once taxes are raised arbitrarily as they are in the US for example ?? People who have properly paid for their property will have it taken .... turning everyone into debt slaves never able to relax in their possession - just like the
You are 100% RIGHT
Is good to once in a while read opinions of informed people.
Political and personal opinion at side, going by history and current world evens, anytime you have the Inter-American Development Bank involve in internal issues of a country with lot of resources like the DR you can be sure is a move to destroy people's rights to own, Especially poor people that don't have the power to fight for their land. The Dominican Republic has a long tradition of corporations coming in to take from the dominican people. I am sure this could mean the beginning of a big modern land grab by international banks and corrupt government, traitors to their country. I just hope that the dominican people still have a bid of Gregorio Luperon in their hearts and fight for their country.
Put some order Mr President, and prosecute to the fullest those that brake the law.
Am 100% with you:
For what I see on all these, goes back to Trujillo's Days "if you own a farm either farm it and pay
taxes on it or lose it to the State"!!!
Some as you know, live in leisure in a City and rent out the farms to Haitians who live in it illegal.
consequently avoid taxes of ownership or taxes on the proseeds sold to consumers
I know my Paternal Gand-father lost his land -not to Haitians but to Dominicans who appropiated
his land after living it as "peones" for over 20 years ,So the State decided to give title of ownership
to those that cultivated same.Which I think was a good part in Trujillo's policy.
By so doing he kept the CAMPESINOS in the countryside,producing goods for the CITIES and
keep the city population down consequently no METRO would be needed today.
How else is a community supposed to strive unless taxes are levied on its people?That is the
function of "AYUNTAMIENTOS"
Jose and Dolo
You both should go live in a Banana Republic instead of the USA. If you look around you in the USA, you will see all the benefits of property taxes at work such as schools, recreation, sewers, potable water to name a few.
It appears that Danilo is moving the DR out of being a Banana Republic by attempting to change things that do not work. I suspect that he is setting things up to tax properties to pay for all the services that people are not getting or getting for from only the Sales Tax or Income tax that will never be enough to create a civilized country. I suggest you go back to the DR and wish you lived in the USA again because you have lost sight of what real paradise costs.
Jose and Dolo
You both should go live in a Banana Republic instead of the USA. If you look around you in the USA, you will see all the benefits of property taxes at work such as schools, recreation, sewers, potable water to name a few.
It appears that Danilo is moving the DR out of being a Banana Republic by attempting to change things that do not work. I suspect that he is setting things up to tax properties to pay for all the services that people are not getting or getting for from only the Sales Tax or Income tax that will never be enough to create a civilized country. I suggest you go back to the DR and wish you lived in the USA again because you have lost sight of what real paradise costs.
"They should make property Taxes annual rather than one payment like all civilized countries and auction it off when not paid."
Even though I stand to pay more in taxes, I agree that property should have to pay taxes on an annual basis. The main reason is that how else would we pay for the vast improvements needed in society?
Modern states need to collect taxes in order to pay the bills for modernization & development. Land and other forms of property are fair game as they generally come from the wealthier sectors of society or those better able to afford taxation. In Puerto Rico I have to pay a small amount, in the hundreds, for a small piece of land my wife inherited from her grandmother. Of course these taxes go to help pay for good roads, garbage collection, electricity and water available.
I've stated it a number of times on DT: Taxation is the price we pay for civilization. If DR wants to leave behind underdevelopment, it must adopt these changes
The low taxation tradition comes from the weak Spanish Crown's inability to control their colonial territories. The Crown basically sold off control over taxation and administration in order to get funds to pay off creditors. When the post-colonial period emerged, many Creoles or the winners against Spain, resolved to continue to tax their lower class sectors and give themselves little or no taxation requirements. Vast areas of the economy were off the grid in terms of taxation. DR has been running like many other Latin american states with these old traditions intact. Time to change.
You are 100% Wrong. Take the statist and quasi communistic-fascistic ideology somewhere else.
American and Western economies as we speak are going down the tubes due to such silly ideologies:
Your arguments always start: "....the state.....the state.....blah blah"
How about this principle: A man - his person and property are inviolate.
NO DIRECT TAXATION: the power to tax is the power to destroy: the basis of prosperity is security in possession of real property. Your founding fathers knew this - too bad their principles were tossed and Americans now are little more than debt slaves, serfs, indentured servants.
How to pay for improvements ?
1. most of improvements are not paid for by real estate taxes: that revenue is mostly stolen for inflated salaries for bureaucrats: (see City Hall Any City USA): civil servants who cant hack the private sector with 6 figure pen
2. how about reducing the cost of government - reduce its size and use indirec
The main one is rapacious corrupt government that stifles innovation and capital formation by entrepreneurs and steals every source of potential revenue it can find. The absence or disrespect of Rule of Law.
Do you really believe that another revenue source for the corrupt government to steal is the answer ??
as it stands, the one readily accessible type of property that the people can get their hands on is a piece of real estate to develop, farm, or but a business, or use for collateral to aid capital formation,,,,, and now you want to create insecurity and impair the value of it by taxing it ??
And because some commie incepted, likely corrupt, statist, neo -colonial banker told it was a good idea ??
Its an awful idea for DR - in particular at this stage of development. You are taking an already poor people and about to make them poorer.....
If one is to own property then a tax payment along with the registration of the property in their name is appropriate and if delayed there are additional charges as is the case now. To charge year after year is government rental, the definition of ownership is you buy it is yours subject to some reasonable restrictions.
"If one is to own property then a tax payment along with the registration of the property in their name is appropriate and if delayed there are additional charges as is the case now. To charge year after year is government rental, the definition of ownership is you buy it is yours subject to some reasonable restrictions."
Please state then how will roads and other improvements be paid for?
Like it or not, DR, as its been the case for many Latin American states, has a low tax environment highly favorable to its wealthier class. Just look around the world and see what relatively good administered taxation has done to formally poor and destitute nation states. Africa has some of the lowest taxed and free environments imaginable on earth. But I guess you would have a very hard time convincing many people to live in these low and no-taxed environments.
Remember: Taxation is the price we pay for Civilization.
as for to: Jose and Dolo
You both should go live in a Banana Republic instead of the USA. If you look around you in the USA, you will see all the benefits of property taxes at work such as schools, recreation, sewers, potable water to name a few.
We do pretty well on these here in the DR, if the money collected went where it is supposed to we would have our power bills to the generators paid as well. The people have a right to be left to their own resources to a large degree, to start to take care of them then becomes an issue of where does the modle coddling end and of course who pays for it. I would guess the sale of non renewable resources should pay the largest burden of any public purse as the resources belong to the people in general.
What does the 16% tax goes for? A couple hundred generals and a huge part of the paid police man power rolls, a lot of them may not even exist beyond as a book keeping entry. Schools, I am with you on an educated citizenry is both humane and cost effective for the good of all. Eliminate waste and rein in Government spending.
I am not going to bother with such ignorant uninformed know-it-all comments from Anarchists and Communists who also think the world is going to end tomorrow. I have better things to do.
go re read my post on what the real problems facing Latin America are and apply it to Africa and multiply by 10.
Rapacious government who has no respect for Rule of Law and property rights......
All of you have valid points; yes even Atabey with his repetitive "taxation versus civilization" mantra!
However, the primary issue now for most of humanity is like it was for the American Revolutionaries in 1776 TAXATION without REPRESENTATION!
We have no voice on how much we are taxed and even less on how it is spent; dare I say look at the Fiasco with the USELESS METRO!
The abuse of the power of taxation is what is pissing people off all of the world!
We don't have to go as far as 1776.Taxation with out representation is the norm of the so call DR gvt.learned under Trujillo's regime and to their advantage has not been changed back to what it
used to be prior to CHAPITA'S days.
A gvt that claims to be a Democracy ,just because it has free election-yet all the Senators & H.R.
are appointed by the president can not be a democracy ,regardless what party is in power.
Unless this gets changed back to the way it used to be,(provincial autonomy), we will never be properly represented by each and every province in the country and form a true Parliament .Not just by any one that has not lived in those Provinces and know the need of such.
Even Venezuela has Provincial elections and opposition in their Parlament,and Colombia as well,
Talking about the useless METRO as you put it ,what is done is done, lets finish it ,half done is
just as bad as if not done at all,