A very sad future awaits Haiti and DR according to projection by the Internation Data Base and the United States Bureau Department.


[URL] http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/broker [/URL]

[B] Based on the population projections of the above site, International Data Base (IDB), the situation looks ominous indeed. Bleak is the operative word.


[ In million]

------------------2010 ----------- 2020------------- 2030--------------2040---------------2050

Cuba-------11.477 [1]------11.646-----------11.567 [3]--------11.196 [3]---------10.540 [3]
DR----------- 9.794 [2]-------11.235----------12.567 [2]--------13.715 [2]---------14.657 [2]
Haiti----------9.203 [3]------ 11,010----------12.876 [1]--------14.567 [1]---------16.115 [1]



To recap, according to the projections based on the United States Census Bureau, the following statistical profile is possible. In 2010, the largest island in the Caribbean, Cuba, had the largest population of inhabitants followed by the Dominican Republic, and Haiti. By the year 2020, the same order remained but with the added proviso that the populations of all three were roughly equal in number. In 2030, the populations are now reversed in order with Haiti having the largest population, the Dominican Republic the second largest, and Cuba, the leader in 2010 and for most of the last 200 years in Caribbean history, last with 11.567 million inhabitants. By the year 2040, the populations continue their numerical separation with Haiti gaining more inhabitants than the DR and Cuba combined! Finally, the last year of the statistical analysis shows Haiti widening its lead over the Dominican Republic and Cuba. The final tallies: Haiti 16 million, Dominican Republic 14.6 million, and Cuba with 10.5 million people. Cuba would then have a population numerically the same as in 1990!, but with the added condition that unlike in the 1990, its population by 2050 would be far older. Haiti would have grown 2.5 times its 1990 population of 6.288 million. The Dominican Republic would have doubled its population from 7.082 to 14.657 million people. Another way of looking at these dreadful trends is to notice that if they come to pass the island of Hispaniola would have over 30 million inhabitants by 2050! That's more than all the rests of the Caribbean nations put together. Talk about a coming disaster. [/B]

WOW....

Greetings to all who participated in the explosive discussions concerning the relationship between Haiti and Dominican Republic. I have to say there are several of you who seem to possess quite an extensive vocabulary and are able to express yourselves with unique eloquence. Some of you even have the ability to convincingly hide racism and prejudice as Nationalism. It is truly unfortunate that this discussion is going on still after so many years.

Haiti and DR should move as one nation in concert with one another, instead of perpetuating stigmas that were clearly implemented by Europeans and Americans. Haitians and Dominicans really are one people colonized by two different European powers. Hispanola was populated by the Tainos. Then, colonization which was done by France and Spain, both Galician people; so far the same people from the same regions living on both parts of one Island. Then the African slaves...which were made up of the Arada, Igbo, Mandingo, Kongo, Chamba, Wolof, and Yoruba peoples, once again all of which can be traced to both the French and Spanish colonies on Hispanola.

So now that we have our roots straight...let me tell you all, I sat and read through every last posting starting from the "ugly Haitian women topic" to the end. And it is true that the US has a different take on race than Latin America...as were the slave laws different under French and Spanish rule than they were under British, American or Portuguese rule. The fact remains however that, color matters just as much, just in a different way. The one drop rule actually works in the opposite direction, a person who has more European blood in them is going to better off than a moreno in Latin American Society not just systematically but socially as well. Lighter skin is favored, straighter hair is favored, anything more European is favored, while African features are looked down upon. I know this from growing up in NYC with Dominicans, Panamanians, Puerto Ricans, Costa Ricans and Westindians. Culture does come first but color is a close second. I remember Puerto Ricans makeing fun of Dominicans, because of their complexion, their hair texture, their culture and their fresh off the boat demeanor. Same was true for the Haitians in the West Indian community. Once again I draw similarities.

Respect for oneself and culture is good, but remember the Bible speaks against Pride, and since we are all either Haitian or Dominican here, I know we are all good Catholics, whoops...is that another similarity! Dominicans in DR maybe doing a lot better now, but Dominicans in the Bronx, Harlem, Brooklyn and Washington Heights are still seriously struggling. And the Haitians in Brooklyn, Long Island, Spring Valley, South Florida, Boston, and Providence R.I. are doing great, but the Haitians in Haiti are starving, even before the earthquake.

There really is no room for either one of us to be talking about each other. Prostitution runs rampant in both countries, in both countries the girls are that poor, it is just that in DR, it has become part of the tourism packages, and that is for real. Anytime American men are going to DR it is for them. Not the best thing for a country to be known for, not to mention the illegal Dominican girls forced into prostitution here in NYC. For Haiti, it is the violence, foreign investors and tourist don't even want to say the word Haiti. I mean, the cruise ships only go to Labadee, and they don't even dock there, they send out tethered boat.

I say all this simply to say, neither nation will truly prosper without working together because it is one piece of land with two countries, similar cultures, and the same roots. It really doesn't matter if Haiti was the only country to gain its independence through slave revolt, or that right after that, they went over and freed the slaves on the Spanish side, or that the Dominicans, took their independence from Haiti. What does matter is that, both of our nations are some of the poorest, with Haiti being a little worse of than Dominican Republic. If you want to see an example of how poor Caribbean countries can prosper by working together, check out the The Organization of Eastern Caribbean States. Collectively they are nine island countries working together, without having to lean on heavy US or British funds or involvement to have a strong economy. Their EC currency is about 1 EC to 2.50 US Dollars. "Men Ampil Chay Pa Lou" and "A falta de pan, buenas son casabe".

It happened once, and it obviously didn't work out.



The Haitians of today have only been on the island for 200 years, while the Dominicans of today have been around for more than 400 years, and some for even longer if they have taino ancestors, so I don't see how that works out?

The French and Spanish are two completely different peoples, and whether you like it or not, Spanish culture is the main ingredient of Dominican culture and makes up a very important part of our identity.



The French brought their slaves and the Spanish brought theirs, they were two separate colonies. And Dominicans and Haitians are not culturally Africans, Dominican culture is mainly Spanish influenced and Haiti has a strong French influence on it's culture.

And since when did Galicia extend into France?



Systematically, no, not in the DR. Socially? What's wrong with having a preference for certain features? many dominicans like dark skinned women.



I live in New York City, and they don't think we are a homogeneous group. And I don't what this has to do with the Dominican Republic.



Then perhaps the DR should unite with Poland, Ireland, or the rest of Latin America as one country
.

Most Haitians who immigrate to the US are the working and middle class minority. And that last part is a great reason why we SHOULDN't unite with Haiti.



The DR is doing much better than Haiti, period.



Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere, how would we Dominicans benefit? And just because we share and island and you think we are black doesn't mean we share the same roots, Haiti is a French Caribbean country which has much more in common with Martinique, Guadalupe etc. The island of Hispaniola was not divided 20 years ago, and the DR is not Equatorial Guinea.



Yes it does, why would we have fought for our independence in the first place?



That's not the same thing, and Haiti wouldn't be able to contribute anything so I don't see how it would be beneficial.

I was looking forward to hearing opinionated responses, even ignorant responses, however...I am surprised to receive a response full of fallacies. EiCibeno, let me clarify and enlighten you on some of the topics I mentioned and you offered incorrect rebuttals for.

First, When I said work together, I meant as two separate nations. Currently there are no examples of this in Latin America, so I gave you an example to research and and study in the Caribbean...I'll give it to you again, check out the history of "The Organization of Eastern Caribbean States."

Second, in regards to your statement, "The Haitians of today have only been on the island for 200 years, while the Dominicans of today have been around for more than 400 years, and some for even longer if they have taino ancestors, so I don't see how that works out?
The French and Spanish are two completely different peoples, and whether you like it or not, Spanish culture is the main ingredient of Dominican culture and makes up a very important part of our identity."

Not true again, Taino's were an Arawak people, which were the indigenous people throughout the entire Caribbean. Ayiti is a Taino word. Also, "In 1574, a census taken of the Greater Antilles, reported 1,000 Spaniards and 12,000 African slaves on Hispaniola.[7]

As Spain conquered new regions on the mainland of the Americas, its interest in Hispaniola waned, and the colony's population grew slowly. By the early 17th century, the island and its smaller neighbors (notably Tortuga) became regular stopping points for Caribbean pirates. In 1606, the king of Spain ordered all inhabitants of Hispaniola to move close to Santo Domingo, to avoid interaction with pirates. Rather than secure the island, however, this resulted in French, English and Dutch pirates establishing bases on the now-abandoned north and west coasts of the island.

In 1665, French colonization of the island was officially recognized by King Louis XIV. The French colony was given the name Saint-Domingue, which became present-day Haiti. In the 1697 Treaty of Ryswick, Spain formally ceded the western third of the island to France. Saint-Domingue quickly came to overshadow the east in both wealth and population." Know your history my friend.

As far as Dominican Culture being mostly Spanish, I can tell you are not educated in Latin American History. If you go to Spain, you will find very little similarities in that culture, beyond the language. Dominican culture is the same as all Caribbean culture, an amalgamation of Arawak, African, European, and in some cases East Indian, together as one. Why are all the food stuffs and methods of cooking so similar throughout the Caribbean.

Thirdly as far as Galicia, that was a mistake on my part I meant the Celtic which comes from the Gauls. However, both French and Spanish were derived from the Latin language that was brought to the Gauls and other Germanic peoples during the 5th Century by the Romans. Moreover, after the 8th Century conquering of the Iberian Peninsula by the Moores, Arabic heavily influenced the evolution of all Iberian languages including Castilian.

Next point, I have been to the DR a few times, and always it is the caramel to dark-skinned complexion people who have the low socio-economic status. One of my friends, who I grew up with who is a light-skinned Italian looking Dominican told me the majority of Dominicans looked like me, that he saw when he went to DR for the first time, which surprised him. So color still does matter, you are either misinformed or disillusioned.

Then, you mentioned "we are not thought of as a homogeneous group" what exactly do you mean? I never claimed the groups that were mentioned were all the same or had the same attributes, which is what homogeneous means.

As far as all your other points none are valid, and it would be a good idea to come with evidence to support your statements, instead of throwing out un-researched opinions. I good disprove everything you have tried to counter act with empirical evidence, but I would be here writing a paper. So start from the root, take your prejudice views and set them aside, and then try to sort out real answers, because currently the illegal Haitians in DR do pose a threat, and it will only get worse unless people come together. Look at the US and Mexico, it does no good to try and take a stance of prejudice. Just like here in the States, the those illegals work their butt off and improve the infrastructure and way of life in this country. That is the whole benefit of immigration, how do you think America became the industrial power house that it is...? Not for nothing, the times I have been to DR on the resorts, the Haitians are the ones most visible, they know not only Spanish, but English and French. They are the ones who deal with all foreigners, and are the middle men for a great experience in DR, where as most of the Locals, don't even speak English, let alone French. This is important because the main Visitors are Coming from the US, Spain, or France. DR's lively hood depends on tourism, and if the Haitians are making themselves the most valuable than now who are the people out of a job...?

Sensible123-I am not going to go over every single item one-by-one. However, I do want to point out a few things. First you keep refering to how much culturally the DR and Haiti have in common . My friend I know you are trying very hard to find common grounds between both countries and I will give you credit for trying but the truth of the matter, YOU ARE WRONG!!!! You can not force a square peg in a round hole no matter how hard you try.

The only few things we might have in common are the aproximately 2,000,000 illegal Haitians who have peacefully invaded the DR, 11% of the Dominican population is of pure African ancestry, we happen to share a few common dietary staples and finally we both live on the same island. Other then that, I just don't see many other significant similarities, which makes the difference to make us one and the same and allow for an automatic attraction or liking for each other.

There are only 3 countires which can claim a natural affinity and that is Cuba, PR and DR. All of them share and hold cultural and historical ties common among each other and are pretty much one and the same in more ways then one. But as for Haiti is concerned, unfortunately they can not join that same band wagon.

The national religion of Haiti is Voodoo and catholicism is used as a front whereas Dominicans are mostly Catholic and Voodoo is not a national religion like in Haiti. The black population of Dominicans are mostly of the protestant faith whose ancesters immigrated from the neighboring anglo-caribbean islands and have preserved their culture to the point that Unesco has declared it part of world heritage. Other then race, our black folks have nothing in common with your black folks.

True that Taino Indians lived all over the island, but Haitians do not have any Taino blood lines and if any does exist, it is probably so minimal that it is too insignificant to mean anything. However, contrary for the DR. it has been scientifically proven that 33% -40% of the Dominican population carries Taino chromosomes in their genes. This is something that is not true for Haiti a country with a 95% pure, unmixed, unadulterated African ancestry.

As for us not to have anything in common with Spain other then the language, again you are wrong and is preposterous and shows your naivette. I can tell that it is you who is not educated in Dominican History. Our Dominican-Spanish is very geo-specific to the Southern regions of Spain and the Canary Islands. Our accent and dialects was brought over by the Spanish much of which is still spoken in many parts of the Dominican Rep and preserved in its orginal lexicon.

The Spanish Culture and presence is very much alive and well in the Dom Rep. In fact we have among others, two major, very important socio-cultural organizations that thousands of Domincans belong and are actively involved, known as Casa de España y El Centro Español. Both organizations are visible and have become part of present day Dominican Culture. Dominicans embraced the Spanish part of their ancestry and feel a strong connection to Spain. In fact we were so remorseful that even after we gained our independence, we called Spain back and asked for an annexation and they accepted. Yes, buddy we reverted the Dominican nation back to colonial status, the only Latin American country to do so. Our ostensible aim was to protect the nation from another Haitian annexation. That is how badly we did not want to become part of and keep away from Haiti. But you guys just don't take no for an answer and are always looking for ways to sqeeze yourself back into the DR.

So strong is our connection and affinity to Spain that La Feria de Andalucia is celebrated as an annual event of massive proportions in the Higuey region of the Dominican Rep. The fair is a homage to the "Feria de Abril (the April Fair) in Spain, which is summed up and represents as the most emblematic festival in the beautiful City of Seville, Spain where people forget their hardships for a week and just enjoy the social gathering with friends and family.

The Cibao Region the largest in the Domincan republic has the greatest number of Dominicans who can claim Spanish ancestry and can trace back their roots for 2 or 3 generations. Though to a lesser extent, there are other regions in the DR such as Bani, el Seibo, as well as many residents of the capital city of Santo Domingo who still have ties to Spain. My wife is a 3rd generation Dominican of Spanish Ancestry and we regularly visit Spain to meet with some of her last remaining relatives.

Spanish immigration to the DR did not stop after columbus came over in 1492. We have had a steady and continued flow of Spanish immigrants which span all the way back from colonial times well into present day history, specifially up until the end of WW II particularly during the Spanish Civil war of 1936-1939 when the last wave of Spaniards came to the DR as political exiles. However, as Spain became poltically and econonically stable, the flow has significantly slowed down in recent years, but regardless of that, we still til this day, though at a much smaller scale continue to recieve a good share of Spaniards who have voluntarily chosen the DR to live as their permanent home.

Haiti did not want or allowed European immigration, which probably explains why that self imposed isolaton staunted its progress and forced Haiti to remain a backward society. Haiti does not have close cultural ties to any European country and has no connection to any nation in Africa. This is quite different for the DR which has to their credit or in other cases detriment, always been generally very friendly, open, receptive and welcoming to all foreign and outside influences.

Why is it so difficult to acknowledge and accept that DR and Haiti are two SEPARATE nations with different cultures, albeit some similarites here and there. There are no stigmas, we were colonized by two different European powers that have had a major impact in different ways on the shaping of our culture. You can never force unification as "one island" on the dominican people. It's not going to happen. We can work together, pero "cada quien en su lado".

Guillermone,

You have left the type of response, that I can respect...I do not agree, but I can respect it. You spoke well and offered no hints of prejudice rants simply built on ignorant opinions. I however have to disagree, when talking to any European, versus the western hemisphere they will never say that they have much in common with Americans, whether the be Latin Americans, North Americans or Caribbeans. True Irish and Italians don't look at Irish and Italian Americans as having the same culture or even being Italian or Irish. Same rings true for Caribbean nations, do you think that the English consider Caribbean colonies they have had for centuries, as English? The answer is no and you know it. They consider the colonized people as subordinates, lets just look at the history, and even the definition of Creole, which comes from the Portuguese word Criollo...it is talking about Europeans born in the New world, and at that time those individuals were not considered to be on the same level as their born European counterparts. So my friend even though you want to be considered Spanish, the Spanish will never consider people of the Nations they colonized as such.

I do however AGREE, that voluntary and then forced isolationism of Haiti, plays a big role in their current status. It is also true that, the majority of the country has African ancestry, but so does the Dominican Republic...we are not talking Puerto Rico here or even Cuba, which also has a large population of people with African Ancestry. Those of Anglo decent like my Italian looking Dominican friend are the rarity, in NYC's Dominican communities and in the Dominican Republic, as is true in all cases of colonies in the western hemisphere, those few families of their ruling class are the ones that appear to have a higher percentage of Anglo blood the majority of the time.

As far as my statement in saying that, all Caribbean countries have a lot in common, that is true. My friend I am well traveled, and I implore you to visit some other island nations and see if a lot of things remind you of home. I will repeat what I said in a previous post. Arawaks (Caribs, Tainos), Africans, Europeans, and to a lesser extent East Indians and Chinese are what all Caribbean cultures are a mixture of, that is just fact and undeniable. For the most part there has always been a larger concentration of Africans in the Caribbean then Europeans, and as far as the indigenous people the Arawaks or other tribes of Amerindians, there are very little of them left and the ones that do exist live in secluded and isolated areas, they don't mix with the contemporary cultures around them...this is the case in Panama, Guyana, and Brazil for example.

Quickly I wanted to touch base on the Voodoo issue, I grew up in a Blanquito-Puerto Rican neighborhood and if I tell you the amount of faithful Catholics, who practiced Santeria it would make your head spin, and PR had less of an African influence than DR. Those Voodoo or Santeria practices are African in origin brought with the slaves. Plenty of Dominicans practice Santeria or Palo, and mask it as Catholicism as well. It is just that in Haiti Papa Doc tried to push it has a African pride theme and also a way to manipulate the masses, seeing as the way he dressed in a fashion similar to that of Baron Samdi most of the time in public. Elegua, is probably what you know him by or St. Anthony. I say this to say Dominicans know just as much about Voodoo, Obeah, and La Regla Ocha as Haitians.

Also, I come from a standpoint of history, because just like a tree full grown we are still a product of our roots. the fact is that in 1547 the Spanish took a census of Santo Domingo, and there were 1,000 Spaniards to 12,000 Africans....don't let ignorance get in the way of your intelligence do the math that is ratio of 12:1! Europeans did not migrate at a rate even close to the amount of African slaves that were brought over, and almost all traces of pure Taino's have been wiped out either through war or illness, brought by the Europeans.

Scholars, such as Jalil Sued Badillo, an ethnohistorian at the University of Puerto Rico, assert that the official Spanish historical record speak of the disappearance of the Taínos. Certainly there are no full blood Taíno people alive today, but recent research does point towards a large mestizo population. Also, Frank Moya Pons, a Dominican historian documented that Spanish colonists intermarried with Taíno women, and, over time, these mestizo descendants intermarried with Africans, creating a tri-racial Creole culture. 1514 census records reveal that 40% of Spanish men in the Dominican Republic had Taíno wives. Ethnohistorian Lynne Guitar writes that Taínos were declared extinct in Spanish documents as early as the 16th century. Moreover, anthropologist and archaeologist Dr. Pedro J. Ferbel Azacarate writes that some Taínos and Africans lived in isolated Maroon communities, evolving into a rural population with predominantly Taíno cultural influences.

That being said if we take the information from both censuses conducted by Spain, first in 1514 and then 33 years later the facts don't lie. 40% of the Spanish men took 2 Taino wives, then the meztizo descendants took African mates, and at the time of the 1547 Census, you have only 1,000 pure blood Spanish men, because they didn't bring their women over to the New World compared to 12,000 pure blood Africans, that is not even including the the Creole descendants of all three races. So how is Spanish culture going to remain dominant? If the all pure Tainos are said to be extinct as early as the 16th Century, this means somewhere between 1500-1599, there were no more pure blood Tainos left. Slavery wasn't abolished until 1822, early 19th Century, meaning during those 200 and something years African Slaves were being brought in.

Guillermone, you also mentioned DR asked to return under Spain's rule in fear of Haitian Occupation, which is true. However, what you forgot to include was that most Dominicans didn't want this and that a revolutionary group was formed to over throw that regime and kick the Spanish out, and who supplied those revolutionaries with men, shelter and weapons...the Haitians. In fact two very important early presidents of DR were of African decent, Gregorio Luperón, and Ulises 'Lilís' Heureaux.

The racist views did not exist in DR until after Trujillo, his 30 year rule of terror was responsible for the current racist views that currently exist throughout DR and in the mind of some Dominicans abroad. It is funny to me too, that no one saw his efforts as a means of getting power and his obvious self-hatred of his own Haitian lineage, being the fact that he was a quarter Haitian. Racist Nationalistic views is the easiest way to gain favor in a Nation, I.E. Hitler. "A system of racial stratification was imposed on Santo Domingo by Spain, as elsewhere in the Spanish Empire. Its effects have persisted, reaching their culmination in the antihaitianismo of the Trujillo regime, as the dictator used racial persecution and nationalistic fervor against Haitians. A U.N. envoy in October 2007 found racism against blacks in general, and Haitians in particular, to be rampant in every segment of Dominican society."

So once again I say, and have proven that Spanish culture is not the dominant culture in DR. Secondly, Dominicans are more African than European, with strong traces of Arawak blood. Making the majority of the Dominican population Chinos, Lobos or Zambos whichever term one decides to use. But not Mestizo, or Mulatto, because those descriptions only refer to a child who has one Arawak and one European Parent, or One African and One European Parent.

Also Guillermone, the other point you listed is a half truth as well, it was in Puerto Rico that the study was made about the Taino DNA, "A recent study conducted in Puerto Rico suggests that over 61% of the population possess Amerindian mtDNA. However, this study does not specify tribes, and Natives from many tribes were brought to the Greater Antilles in the Indian slave trade." Dominicans on the other hand do not have the same scenario, "According to a study by the CUNY Dominican Studies Institute, about 90% of the contemporary Dominican population has West African ancestry to varying degrees. However, MOST Dominicans DO NOT self-identify as BLACK, in contrast to people of West African ancestry in other countries. A variety of terms are used to represent a range of skin tones, such as moreno/a (brown), canelo/a (red/brown) ["cinnamon"], indio/a (Indian), blanco/a oscuro/a (dark white), and trigueño/a (literally "wheat colored", or olive skin)."

In closing what I do find interesting though is this fact, "Ramona Hernández, director of the Dominican Studies Institute at City College of New York asserts that the terms were originally a defense against racism: "During the TRUJILLO regime, people who were dark skinned were rejected, so they created their own mechanism to fight it." She went on to explain, "When you ask, 'What are you?' they don't give you the answer you want ... saying we don't want to deal with our blackness is simply what you want to hear."

Guillermone, If you have historical evidence to the contrary please submit it, I am a student of the History of the Caribbean and Latin America, and more specifically the African Diaspora. I respect all facts, backed by research and documentation.

Sensible123,

Well said well thought out. Finally someone with common sense and intelligence on this board.

It is also true that, the majority of the country has African ancestry, but so does the Dominican Republic...we are not talking Puerto Rico here or even Cuba, which also has a large population of people with African Ancestry.

No, the racial make-up of Haiti and the DR is not one and the same. The fact that major portions of Dominicans have African ancestry does not make a valid comparison in the same proportion as those of the Haitian people. Unless of course you are using the one drop rule, which states that one ounce of black blood automatically makes you black and totally disregards any euro or ameri-indian ancestry, which from your statement seems to be what you are implying.