guillermone previously said:

Sensible123-I am not going to go over every single item one-by-one. However, I do want to point out a few things. First you keep refering to how much culturally the DR and Haiti have in common . My friend I know you are trying very hard to find common grounds between both countries and I will give you credit for trying but the truth of the matter, YOU ARE WRONG!!!! You can not force a square peg in a round hole no matter how hard you try.

The only few things we might have in common are the aproximately 2,000,000 illegal Haitians who have peacefully invaded the DR, 11% of the Dominican population is of pure African ancestry, we happen to share a few common dietary staples and finally we both live on the same island. Other then that, I just don't see many other significant similarities, which makes the difference to make us one and the same and allow for an automatic attraction or liking for each other.

There are only 3 countires which can claim a natural affinity and that is Cuba, PR and DR. All of them share and hold cultural and historical ties common among each other and are pretty much one and the same in more ways then one. But as for Haiti is concerned, unfortunately they can not join that same band wagon.

The national religion of Haiti is Voodoo and catholicism is used as a front whereas Dominicans are mostly Catholic and Voodoo is not a national religion like in Haiti. The black population of Dominicans are mostly of the protestant faith whose ancesters immigrated from the neighboring anglo-caribbean islands and have preserved their culture to the point that Unesco has declared it part of world heritage. Other then race, our black folks have nothing in common with your black folks.

True that Taino Indians lived all over the island, but Haitians do not have any Taino blood lines and if any does exist, it is probably so minimal that it is too insignificant to mean anything. However, contrary for the DR. it has been scientifically proven that 33% -40% of the Dominican population carries Taino chromosomes in their genes. This is something that is not true for Haiti a country with a 95% pure, unmixed, unadulterated African ancestry.

As for us not to have anything in common with Spain other then the language, again you are wrong and is preposterous and shows your naivette. I can tell that it is you who is not educated in Dominican History. Our Dominican-Spanish is very geo-specific to the Southern regions of Spain and the Canary Islands. Our accent and dialects was brought over by the Spanish much of which is still spoken in many parts of the Dominican Rep and preserved in its orginal lexicon.

The Spanish Culture and presence is very much alive and well in the Dom Rep. In fact we have among others, two major, very important socio-cultural organizations that thousands of Domincans belong and are actively involved, known as Casa de España y El Centro Español. Both organizations are visible and have become part of present day Dominican Culture. Dominicans embraced the Spanish part of their ancestry and feel a strong connection to Spain. In fact we were so remorseful that even after we gained our independence, we called Spain back and asked for an annexation and they accepted. Yes, buddy we reverted the Dominican nation back to colonial status, the only Latin American country to do so. Our ostensible aim was to protect the nation from another Haitian annexation. That is how badly we did not want to become part of and keep away from Haiti. But you guys just don't take no for an answer and are always looking for ways to sqeeze yourself back into the DR.

So strong is our connection and affinity to Spain that La Feria de Andalucia is celebrated as an annual event of massive proportions in the Higuey region of the Dominican Rep. The fair is a homage to the "Feria de Abril (the April Fair) in Spain, which is summed up and represents as the most emblematic festival in the beautiful City of Seville, Spain where people forget their hardships for a week and just enjoy the social gathering with friends and family.

The Cibao Region the largest in the Domincan republic has the greatest number of Dominicans who can claim Spanish ancestry and can trace back their roots for 2 or 3 generations. Though to a lesser extent, there are other regions in the DR such as Bani, el Seibo, as well as many residents of the capital city of Santo Domingo who still have ties to Spain. My wife is a 3rd generation Dominican of Spanish Ancestry and we regularly visit Spain to meet with some of her last remaining relatives.

Spanish immigration to the DR did not stop after columbus came over in 1492. We have had a steady and continued flow of Spanish immigrants which span all the way back from colonial times well into present day history, specifially up until the end of WW II particularly during the Spanish Civil war of 1936-1939 when the last wave of Spaniards came to the DR as political exiles. However, as Spain became poltically and econonically stable, the flow has significantly slowed down in recent years, but regardless of that, we still til this day, though at a much smaller scale continue to recieve a good share of Spaniards who have voluntarily chosen the DR to live as their permanent home.

Haiti did not want or allowed European immigration, which probably explains why that self imposed isolaton staunted its progress and forced Haiti to remain a backward society. Haiti does not have close cultural ties to any European country and has no connection to any nation in Africa. This is quite different for the DR which has to their credit or in other cases detriment, always been generally very friendly, open, receptive and welcoming to all foreign and outside influences.

sensible123 previously said:

I have to say Guillermone, we will have to agree to disagree. I am not trying to say Domincans are Negros, because there is no such thing as a Negro, that is a European label. I simply am stating that the majority of Dominicanos are Brown not white, and the new influx of other cultures is irrelavent in this discussion and you know it, none of them have any real influence in your culture. The fact that you say you are Dominican first and nothing else, I have no choice but to respect that. It was only when it sounded like you were denying your brown side to give more validity to your European side. The cultures most responsible for your culture are the Tainos, Africans and to a lesser extent the Spanish opressors.

Lastly, big business and marketing ploys ARE run as a result of colonialism, to market their version of beauty which is the European stereotype. Look at Christina if she is still on, a Blond Blue Eyed Hispanic, which is rare even in Spain. That type of image had so many Domincan women back in the 80's and 90's bleaching their natural hair color blond in NYC. You do not see any cultures out there purchasing products that change their appearance to look like another race, like dark complected people do, that is a result of colonialism. There is nuthing safe or healthy about skin bleaching. Really ask youself why would any caramel, brown, or dark complected person want to lighten their skin, they are showing an admiration for another race, and a dislike of their own. If you think that is healthy my dominican brother than your sense of culture is warped.

haitian718goon previously said:




whoever really thinks that Haiti is 95 percent unmixed African ancestry is really ignorant with a super low iq.

im Haitian and i am 25 percent white from my background and i can assure you when i go to Haiti people see me as black.

also people of marabou decent(black/white/east indians) are also considered part of the black diaspora in Haiti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marabou_%28ethnicity%29

so once again if you really believe that every brown skin Haitian is considered a mulatto or that that all of the 95 percent of African heritage is unmixed then please get your iq checked.

guillermone previously said:



Again we are going around in circles. Everything you refute above, I have already explained. But you keep bringing back the same point as if it was never mentioned. You are either not taking the time to read and understand my posts or you just want to argue for the sale of an argument. It seems as if you are so convince of your prejudiced and distorted ideas of race that you blow-off and dismiss my points as irrelevant. But I will again take the time and discuss each point one-by-one and hopefully you will grasp the concept.

1- "simply am stating that the majority of Dominicanos are Brown not white, ......."

First of all Dominicans have never denied that. It is pretty much well and firmly established. We are a people of color there is nothing to debate. But because of that do not force us to partake in the same feelings of race shared by none-whites as if it were one and the same. Do not attempt to place Dominicans in any specific racial category, because Dominicans do not have a category. We are a multi-racial people that can be predominately caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid. We can select a race as an individual, but as a group you can no pin hole us, never to one specific racial category. So why you are bringing up that "the majority of Dominicans are brown and not white" as if it were an issue has me baffled. Dominicans have always claimed a tri-racial ancestry with a spinkling of other cultures added mostly towards the second half of national history.

2-and the new influx of other cultures is irrelavent in this discussion and you know it, none of them have any real influence in your culture

This is where you are totally wrong. Each and eveyone of those cultures left and has had an undeniably lasting imprint in our complex cultural and racial composition. Though the influence is more so regional then nationally, it does not take away that the DR has a personality reflective of those immigrants, demonstrated in the habits, foods and customs of our people. I will only give you a few examples, otherwise I could go on endlessly with this which can easily turn into an extensive paper on comparative cultural analysis on the DR and that is not my purpose here.

In the central region of the DR where most of the Middle-Eastern people arrived, the presence is strong. I believe that after Spain, they were the second most influential group of people in the DR. We adopted traditions as our own that not even I realized were not authentically Dominican. For example stuff cabbage (niños envuelto), kippe and falafel were foods that I grew up eating as a child thinking they were originally Dominican and all this time it was not. In the same region it is common for the older generation to use an Arabic derived phrase "abul, abul" stated twice as substitute and instead of the traditional spanish word "adios" to say good-bye. The The Moors invasion of Spain and the contemporary Arabic influence left a permanent and long lasting impression on Dominican society that can never be denied. Their presence is still well and alive today in business, politics, education and the arts.

The Germans also left a strong legacy that we still enjoy and had it not been for them our beer, cattle, dairy and sausage industry would not be what it is today. Famous Dominican beer Presidente is not a native product but rather a formula that came by way of a German immigrant during the Trujillo regime.

In the South Eastern region San Pedro and La Romana is home to most if not all of the Domincan baseball players in US major leagues. You will easily find thousands of Dominicans with English surnames and have a dietary habits unknown in other regions of the DR which include among other things the very popular Johnny Cakes (fried dumplings) a staple common only among the British caribbean. Dominicans from Samana arrived as free slaves from the US and were the first to bring a none Catholic Protestant faith to the country as members of the AME (African Methodist Episcopal) church.

In the South Western DR with the exception of Bani and San Jose de Ocoa ( these natives are Spaniards that came from the Canary Islands) Additionally, it was also once a location for Puerto Ricans who setters who arrives on canoes to work as Farm hands during a dire economic conditins on the island of Borinquen. But it is also the location for strongest influence of Afro-Haitian culture with the Palo rituals and the use of Coconut milk as a flavoring ingredient in their diet. In the city of Barahona, because of the port and shipping industry it was a very cosmopolitan town and brought people from all over the world.

3-The cultures most responsible for your culture are the Tainos, Africans and to a lesser extent the Spanish opressors.

THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS. Who made you the authority on Dominican culrure? Boy-o-boy as a Haitian you have a lot of nerve to make such as statement. Do not use "most responsible." I think you are confusing race with culture and though one is related to the other it is not one and the same. None of them 3 cultures has a predominance over the other, because it all depends on what region of the DR you are located. But all of them in general terms has played a different role which is very well demonstrated in all aspects of our identity. Please leave your personal opinions on the side, there is no room for it in this discussion.

Let me help you understand and clarify your confusion:

Race is a social construct used to classify people due to typically physical traits such as skin tone, facial features, hair texture, etc..

Ethnicity is whom you identify with usually in terms of tradition, heritage, language, religion, behavioral similarities, etc...

Culture is dance, music, language, art, literature, education, religion and related intellectual activities.

4-Lastly, big business and marketing ploys ARE run as a result of colonialism, to market their version of beauty which is the European stereotype. Look at Christina if she is still on, a Blond Blue Eyed Hispanic, which is rare even in Spain. That type of image had so many Domincan women back in the 80's and 90's bleaching their natural hair color blond in NYC. You do not see any cultures out there purchasing products that change their appearance to look like another race, like dark complected people do, that is a result of colonialism.

Christina Saralegui is 60+ years old and old people tend to hold on to habits practice while in their youth. That is why older people are called "old fashioned"- Get it? She continues to dress in a style that was popular in the 80's but is now pasé. And I explained to you already that in many Asian cultures bleaching the skin to pale white is not a denial of race but practice as a sign of beauty. The Chinese and Japanese were never under colonial rule and they spend millions on bleaching cream and these are people who are light already, but looking white like a dead corp to them is beaufiful.

MY FRIEND YOU NEED PUT ASIDE ALL OF YOUR FALSE BELIEFS ABOUT DOMINICAN RACIAL IDENTITY AND TRY TO BE MORE OBJECTIVE AND LESS SUBJECTIVE. TRY TO LOOK AT US FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW AND NOT FROM YOUR AFRO-CENTRIST HAITIAN US INFLUENCED IDEAS OF RACE.

guillermone previously said:



DUDE ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE THE SUN WITH ONE FINGER. My friend I have been to Haiti. Don't argue with me. If Haiti is not 95% unmixed black then lets JUST say "95% of the Haitian population is PREDOMINATELY BLACK rather then just and only black. IF THAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER.

"also people of marabou decent(black/white/east indians) are also considered part of the black diaspora in Haiti."

What black disapora are you talking about? When did East Indians migrate to Haiti? I think you need to get your facts straight. East Indians arrived as indentured servants to Guyana, Suriname, Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago and to a lesser extent to other islands in the Caribbeans. Dude study your history and don't question my intellectual capacity before you analyze yours first.

ElFactor previously said:


ElFactor The independence of Haiti was celebrated by the genocide of all the French people. After that people from other countries never immigrated to Haiti until the late 19th century into the 20th century. Very few people immigrated to Haiti. So how can people come up with such delusions.