Did your father enter France illegally? Because if you read my post carefully...I'm directing my remarks to the CHILDREN OF ILLEGALS who don't qualify for birth certificates. Furthermore, I specifically singled out Muslim and African immigrants in France since these are the two communities who were targeted when I was living in Paris attending the American University at the Sorbonne. I have no knowledge of any other group being targeted in France, nor do I have any knowledge of any other group being the focus of French anger over illegal immigration. Basically, France is a very tolerant nation. But the huge numbers of Maghrebians and Sub-Saharan Africans that continue to enter illegally have tested French patience.

As one example, France's second-largest city, Marseilles, is now majority Algerian and the mayor is also of Algerian descent. On the one hand, it saddens me that Algerians and other Maghrebians are targeted because my grandfather was Algerian. He was an Algerian Jew...his last name was Ben-Jacques, translated into French from Hebrew "B'n Yaacob".

Most Algerians have fled to France to look for a better life due to the on-going civil war. But Algeria's troubles shouldn't become France's problems.

And no, the D.R. is not copying other countries' constitutions...they are emulating other countries laws due to similar experience. This is not unusual nor unethical. That is the normal practice in jurisprudence. Legal precendence in one place breaks ground for its adoption everywhere else.

Seriously, Jabao...I think that this sentence alone proves the point. And this next one only drives my point home even deeper.





No...no romantic illusions...just one of blood and bond. It is very hard to hate someone whose people's blood run through your veins. When we talk about Dominicans and Haitians both having African blood, we are talking about both having the blood of the many nameless slaves that were ripped off the coasts of Africa.

When a Dominican talks about having Castillian blood, he is is usually referring to any number of ancestors that he can call by name and refer to by place of origin in Spain. I know for example that my great-great grandfather was Jose Hernandez Terrero and that he came to D.R. from the town of Navas del Madrono in the Region de Extremadura in Spain. It is hard to paint the Spaniard as "other" when our last names and our blood are theirs without any uncertainty. It is very easy to paint another group of people as "other" when you have no concrete proof that you have much in common other vague racial affinities.

Scroll back and see some of my earlier posts for the relationships among even more closely related groups around the world who have historically hated each other. I don't think I want to keep hammering the same point home over and over again.



Culture shock is a common human experience. It happens even among Dominicans. I recall vividly back in high school that my best friend and I had a practice of making some real nasty jokes about an Asian kid in the locker room after gym class. We always used Spanish, since my best friend was Puerto Rican and we knew the Asian kid wouldn't understand. That is until that same Asian kid finally got sick and tired of hearing us making those jokes. One day he just came out and confronted us..

He said...

"Oigan, carenalgas...yo soy Japones-Dominicano de San Juan de la Maguana. Y entendio to la mierda que utede tan diciendo asi que metanselo por el ojo ciego."

We were so shocked and so embarrassed we didn't say a word. But the next day we did apologize and became very good friends with Carlos Takemoto.

MY FATHER AND HIS FAMILY THE ROSENBERGS ARE JEWISH DESCENT, NO PAPERS OR DOCUMENTS NEEDED. MY FATHER"S GRAND FATHER SNUCKED INTO FRANCE FROM GERMANY AND LIVED THERE WITHOUT NO KIND OF DOCUMENTS. MY FATHER WAS BORN IN HAITI AND HIS FAMILIES WHO ARE OF JEWISH DESCENTS HAD SEVERAL BUSINESSES IN HAITI AND DOMINICAN REPUBLIC.

FACT: DOMINICANS GO TO HAITI AND LIVE THERE AND HAVE CHILDREN THERE WTHOUT EVER SEEK HAITIAN PAPERS. IN FACT THEY JUST CROSS WITH NOT EVEN A PASAPORTE. THEIR BABIES ARE NEVER DENIED HAITIAN BIRTH CERTIFICATES BECAUSE THE BABIES DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEIR PARENTS QUESTIONABLE LEGALITY OR ILLEGALITY.

ILLEGAL DOMINICANS HAVE KIDS IN THE US, HAVE THEIR KIDS EVER DENIED US BIRTH CERTIFICATES? NO.

FACT: DOMINICANS ALLOWS WHITE EUROPEANS OR TOURISTS JUST VISITING HAVE BIRTH CERTIFICATES WHO ARE JUST AND ONLY TOURISTS. YOU HAVE HAITIANS WITH LEGAL PASAPORTE AND VISAS WHOM THEIR KIDS ARE DENIED BIRTH CERTIFICATES STILL, YET THE DOMINICANS SUCKING UP TO TOURISTS AND THEIR MONEY HAS BEEN PROVEN TO WORK JUST WELL GRANTING TOURISTS KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATES.

I don't dispute any of the "facts" that you point out. Like I mentioned before, this law began in France as a French reaction against illegal African immigration. I was studying in Paris when it started and was promoted by Jean-Marie Le Pen's Nationalist Front Party. The Pasqua I law passed, elminating automatic citizenship to the children of illegals. There were riots in the streets when it became law. This law has since been imitated by various other countries; most famously and ironically by the Arab nations around the Persian Gulf. Those countries face a situation where the majority of the population is made up of foreign workers (except for Saudi Arabia, which limits the numbers of foreigners allowed to enter). They (al-Kuwait, al-Qatar, the UAE, al-Bahrain, Oman, and Saudi Arabia) will not grant citizenship to neither foreign workers nor their children born there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1518893/posts

http://migration.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2007/04/11/french-immigration-policy-history-repeated/

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6522463


But every country on earth has a right to craft laws of citizenship for its territory. We may not always agree with the laws but it is their right. And in the U.S. it is unconsitutional to deny anyone born on U.S. soil citizenship. That hasn't stopped several states from trying to change that provision in the Constitution. After all, it wouldn't be without legal precedence. That provision was changed once before...when the Constitution was originally drafted. It was altered so that anyone who was living in the 13 original colonies at the time of the writing of the Constitution could be elegible to run for president...even if they were born somewhere else.

That provision was put in expressly for Alexander Hamilton, first Secretary of the Treasury, and representative from New York at the Continental Congress. He was born in Barbados.

Now, I assume that when you posted this:



You were referring to the period during the Second World War. That would be odd. Germany invaded and took control of France almost immediately. France's much-hyped "Maginot Line" failed to contain the Germans and the French had to surrender at the very start of that war. As such, nearly 75% of France became incorporated into Germany during the war. The remaining 25% was run by a German puppet regime (the Vichy Government) in the southeastern part of France. The Germans were notorious for their strict control of the population. Everyone needed papers to prove their identity. There was no such thing as walking down a street without being questioned at least once to produce papers. As a matter of historical fact, even here, in New York City, you needed documents just to cross from one borough to another during World War II. I have seen those documents from older New Yorkers who still have them as keepsakes from that era and some are on display at the Holocaust Museum in Manhattan.

And, one more note: That border was the most militarized and guarded border in the world between the period of the First World War (1914-1918) and the end of Allied control of Germany in the 1950s.

How does my sentence prove your point. I think you are reading into based on assumptions. All I ask for is facts. Where are you getting this information from?



Again your comments clearly demonstrates the romanticise of the spaniards. Alot of haitians have french blood as well and there isn't one haitian that has an african last name. All are french,italian(like mine), spanish, arabic, and english. An average dominican have no idea about there spanish blood line unlike yourself. Basically you are depicting dominicans as equals when they were property and majority are products of concubinage. It appears you go great lenght to prove you spanish heritage and good for you. I for instance can tell you paternal grandfather was an italian immigrant and my mother side are mulattos(concubines of the french). If you are so spanish how come majority of dominicans can't request for spanish citizenship like others in latin america. Again you are fantacising and keep dreaming.

"If you are so spanish how come majority of dominicans can't request for spanish citizenship like others in latin america."

I don't think that the gentleman was saying that he is spanish or even that he wants to be spanish, he is merely stating a fact, namely that most Dominicans carry spanish blood in their veins, just as most Dominicans carry African blood in their veins. Why should that even be a point of contention? Wether it means anything to the Spaniards or anybody else I think is really beside the point. It doesn't change the reality of the situation.

On a side note to hell with the present-day Spaniard. All the real men left Spain a long time ago to colonize the new world and all that's left in Spain proper are the descendants of the Castilianized peasants who lacked the balls to make the oversea journey and the tiny minority that had no need to make the journey in the first place. That's my story and I'm sticking to it

You should consider an informal poll of the "average dominican" on the origins of their ancestors from Spain. You can freely conduct one here...there are plenty average dominicans on this forum. You would be amazed how many have been told by their parents or grandparents where their ancestors came from.

And concubinage is something that royalty engages in. There was a vice-royal seat in Santo Domingo for a brief period at the very beginning...it was moved to Mexico City rather early on. I believe you are referring to mistresses. A mistress is not a concubine. And the clarification bears making. But neither are the slave women who were raped by their masters concubines or mistress, which is what I think your trying to express. That is a whole other dynamic that seems to garner way more outrage and shame among predominanty black parts of the New World (Jamaica, Brazil, Haiti and the U.S. South).

The basic point is this...even if is hard for most non-Spanish speaking blacks to grasp, the relationship between Spaniards and their African slaves was never as acrimonious as that found elsewhere...with one important exception...Cuba. But Cuba had more blacks to deal with than any other area of the empire. It makes total and complete sense that tensions there would be higher than anywhere else. Besides, in places like D.R. and Puerto Rico, the African population had assimilated into the general culture by the 1700s. There were always slaves, yes...but there were huge populations of freedmen as well who held a social position far above that of newly arrived African slaves or indentured servants of any color (you either forget or don't realize that indentiture was also practiced by the Spaniards and that system didn't care if you were white or black or indian).

And to answer your question about Spanish citizenship...you obviously don't realize the facts. Spain's citizenship law is the same for everyone...dominican or otherwise. In addition, Dominicans do have a relative position of preference for working visas to Spain. So do Ecuadoreans, Colombians and Cubans. In one small town alone, 13,000 left for Spain during the 1990s.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34874

On another note in the dominican constitution abides by jus solis thus illegal haitians that give birth on dominican soil are dominicans although the "transition" have been manipulated to deny dominican of haitian descent dominican papers. I personally think that this will come to bite the dominican government in the behind for now the children of illegal haitians have to sign the pink book. This is basically targeted towards haitians only and discriminate against dominicans that haitain descendant and dark skin dominicans that don't have papers they have to go under more scrutiny unlike the lighter shade dominicans without documents. Hey, dominican government has made the decision and one has to live with it although this well be a major problem in the future. Personally neither one of you have know idea about french politics and immigration laws. So I am not even going to waste my time entertaining something with people who are wiki scholars. You student at Sorbonne..right...........I though you are arab descent make up your mind..Hispanola..you are pushing it to..u guys really need to do some soul searching and look at your damn passport to find out who you really are..

"Personally neither one of you have know idea about french politics and immigration laws."

Who was that directed at?

"I personally think that this will come to bite the dominican government in the behind for now the children of illegal haitians have to sign the pink book. "

You can say that again.