[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]


And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm wrong.

[/QUOTE]

The Haitian origin doesn't need to be debated. It is well-known and documented. What I did do was point out the inclusion of the Imberts and Espaillats as FRENCH immigrants...not Haitian...but FRENCH. When it would be obvious to anyone familiar with the Catalan language and heritage that those last names are indeed Catalan. I also pointed out the common error made in Latin America that any last name that takes a "t" at the end has to be French. This usually results from a lack of knowledge of the regional languages of Spain. I once heard an Argentinia friend comment that the last name"Anzoategui" was from Italy...when in fact that is a Basque last name from Northern Spain. It is this that was attempting to bring to light...that many times last names that don't follow the typical Castillian sound pattern are ascribed to a foreign, exotic provenance when they are indeed Spanish in as much as there are regions of Spain that do NOT speak Castillian as their native tongues.

Somehow this was misconstrued as a denial of Haitian ancestry when that post had nothing to do with Haitian ancestry at all.
[/QUOTE]

Are you a genealogist, by chance?

[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]


And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm wrong.

[/QUOTE]

The Haitian origin doesn't need to be debated. It is well-known and documented. What I did do was point out the inclusion of the Imberts and Espaillats as FRENCH immigrants...not Haitian...but FRENCH. When it would be obvious to anyone familiar with the Catalan language and heritage that those last names are indeed Catalan. I also pointed out the common error made in Latin America that any last name that takes a "t" at the end has to be French. This usually results from a lack of knowledge of the regional languages of Spain. I once heard an Argentinia friend comment that the last name"Anzoategui" was from Italy...when in fact that is a Basque last name from Northern Spain. It is this that was attempting to bring to light...that many times last names that don't follow the typical Castillian sound pattern are ascribed to a foreign, exotic provenance when they are indeed Spanish in as much as there are regions of Spain that do NOT speak Castillian as their native tongues.

Somehow this was misconstrued as a denial of Haitian ancestry when that post had nothing to do with Haitian ancestry at all.
[/QUOTE]

Are you a genealogist, by chance?

[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]


And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm wrong.

[/QUOTE]

The Haitian origin doesn't need to be debated. It is well-known and documented. What I did do was point out the inclusion of the Imberts and Espaillats as FRENCH immigrants...not Haitian...but FRENCH. When it would be obvious to anyone familiar with the Catalan language and heritage that those last names are indeed Catalan. I also pointed out the common error made in Latin America that any last name that takes a "t" at the end has to be French. This usually results from a lack of knowledge of the regional languages of Spain. I once heard an Argentinia friend comment that the last name"Anzoategui" was from Italy...when in fact that is a Basque last name from Northern Spain. It is this that was attempting to bring to light...that many times last names that don't follow the typical Castillian sound pattern are ascribed to a foreign, exotic provenance when they are indeed Spanish in as much as there are regions of Spain that do NOT speak Castillian as their native tongues.

Somehow this was misconstrued as a denial of Haitian ancestry when that post had nothing to do with Haitian ancestry at all.
[/QUOTE]

Are you a genealogist, by chance?

[/QUOTE]

I'm a semiotician by training. But I hold dual degrees in semiotics and linguistics. My concentration was in the use of language for marketing, advertising and politics. My thesis was a dissection of syntagms and paradigms in modern American television.

[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]

And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm being unjust on my assessment.

[/QUOTE]


I think Muchacho is just bring things to light that have not been known and not in any way trying to discredit or put down the Haitian culture in anyway. It just seems like Jabao feels attacked or a victim of these revelations that may bring to light French and Haitian origins. I mean from previous conversations on this forum I have the general feeling that Haitians feel like victims and I think honestly it's just another case where a Haitian feels like a victim. I mean Muchacho has no malice or ill-will when revealing these relevations. I know for a fact that Basque people are in Northern Spain and Southwest France in the Catalunya region where they speak a mix of French and Spanish. I'm not saying that Muchacho is right 100% but at the same time Jabao, don't take this an attack or an attempt to discredit Haitian ancestry.

Ya tu sabe loco mansito papa.

[QUOTE=ny4life]
[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]

And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm being unjust on my assessment.

[/QUOTE]


I think Muchacho is just bring things to light that have not been known and not in any way trying to discredit or put down the Haitian culture in anyway. It just seems like Jabao feels attacked or a victim of these revelations that may bring to light French and Haitian origins. I mean from previous conversations on this forum I have the general feeling that Haitians feel like victims and I think honestly it's just another case where a Haitian feels like a victim. I mean Muchacho has no malice or ill-will when revealing these relevations. I know for a fact that Basque people are in Northern Spain and Southwest France in the Catalunya region where they speak a mix of French and Spanish. I'm not saying that Muchacho is right 100% but at the same time Jabao, don't take this an attack or an attempt to discredit Haitian ancestry.

Ya tu sabe loco mansito papa.



[/QUOTE]

I think Jabao didn't go that link I was referencing. He just assumed that what I meant by "not being French" last names, was aimed at "not being Haitian last names". I was referring to the inclusion of the Imberts and Espaillats as French immigrant families from France. Whether or not they had any Haitian blood was not the issue. The issue was the shoddy scholarship of the researchers in including those last names as French when they are in fact, Catalan.

This is the quote from that website that I was referencing:

Sería importante destacar en cápsulas posteriores los aportes a nuestra Independencia de otras familias extranjeras no hispanas o criollas, tales cómo: de Italia (Acosta, Billini, Cambiaso, Maggiolo, Piantini), Francia (Fondeur, Imbert, Bergés, Espaillat), Inglaterra (Teodoro Heneken), Curazao-Holanda (Leyba).

Translation:

It would be important to point out lastly, the contributions to our independence of other foreign NON-HISPANIC or creole families, such as: from Italy (Acosta, Billini, Cambiaso, Maggiolo, Piantini), France (Fondeur, Imbert, Bergés, Espaillat), England (Teodoro Heneken), Curaçao (Leyba).

I would even question Leyba as an immigrant family from Curaçao. Unfortunately, I have no knowledge and have never come across any written material as to the origins of that family. Insticnt and training tell me that the last name is Galician-Asturian. But then Galician is the parent language of Portuguese and Curaçao was originally a Portuguese colony (the name, by the way means "Corazon" in Galician-Portuguese). So...the authors may indeed be correct.

[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=ny4life]
[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]

And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm being unjust on my assessment.

[/QUOTE]


I think Muchacho is just bring things to light that have not been known and not in any way trying to discredit or put down the Haitian culture in anyway. It just seems like Jabao feels attacked or a victim of these revelations that may bring to light French and Haitian origins. I mean from previous conversations on this forum I have the general feeling that Haitians feel like victims and I think honestly it's just another case where a Haitian feels like a victim. I mean Muchacho has no malice or ill-will when revealing these relevations. I know for a fact that Basque people are in Northern Spain and Southwest France in the Catalunya region where they speak a mix of French and Spanish. I'm not saying that Muchacho is right 100% but at the same time Jabao, don't take this an attack or an attempt to discredit Haitian ancestry.

Ya tu sabe loco mansito papa.



[/QUOTE]

I think Jabao didn't go that link I was referencing. He just assumed that what I meant by "not being French" last names, was aimed at "not being Haitian last names". I was referring to the inclusion of the Imberts and Espaillats as French immigrant families from France. Whether or not they had any Haitian blood was not the issue. The issue was the shoddy scholarship of the researchers in including those last names as French when they are in fact, Catalan.

This is the quote from that website that I was referencing:

Sería importante destacar en cápsulas posteriores los aportes a nuestra Independencia de otras familias extranjeras no hispanas o criollas, tales cómo: de Italia (Acosta, Billini, Cambiaso, Maggiolo, Piantini), Francia (Fondeur, Imbert, Bergés, Espaillat), Inglaterra (Teodoro Heneken), Curazao-Holanda (Leyba).

Translation:

It would be important to point out lastly, the contributions to our independence of other foreign NON-HISPANIC or creole families, such as: from Italy (Acosta, Billini, Cambiaso, Maggiolo, Piantini), France (Fondeur, Imbert, Bergés, Espaillat), England (Teodoro Heneken), Curaçao (Leyba).

[/QUOTE]

With evolution I mean, those last names are Dominican or Haitian. The euro part becomes less significant as people are not born there anymore and are from the Island solely.

[QUOTE=ny4life]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=ny4life]
[QUOTE=Lautaro]
[QUOTE=muchacho]
[QUOTE=JabaoHaitian]
[[/QUOTE]


You know what I find interesting about you...you don't so much argue a position as much as you turn tables. In a debate that is known as the "law of the loudest monkey". It may not be right or even very smart, but it gets him his banana.
[/QUOTE]


Listen don't take anything personal. It's just that a can see a fake miles away. I give it to you though, you come out is a witty chap but you still have certain weaknesses in your character taht will always remain. You can distort the truth for as long as you want but like I said it doesn't make these dominican heros less dominican if they indeed have haitian ancestry. It appears that this is something impossible. Beside you and hispanosoy can play intellectuals and link back and forth while others meditate and come up with our own conclusion rather than garbage in garbage out..let it digest a tad. All due respect sir. I would make a good politician have you ever ran for any office?
[/QUOTE]

And where have I stated that they [B]DO NOT[/B] have Haitian ancestry? Again you chose to see what you want to see.

My favorite Anaïs Nin quote: We don't see things the way they are...we see things the way WE are.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but maybe what he sees in your discourse, muchacho, is that, by your constant emphasizing on the spaniard/canarian origin of a great part of the dominican families, you may be demeaning the haitian origin of others if not directly, at least implicitly. As if the people from dominican families of spanish origin had more of a right to reclaim "dominicanness" than any of the other inmigrant groups over here. Again, this is my perception, correct me if I'm being unjust on my assessment.

[/QUOTE]


I think Muchacho is just bring things to light that have not been known and not in any way trying to discredit or put down the Haitian culture in anyway. It just seems like Jabao feels attacked or a victim of these revelations that may bring to light French and Haitian origins. I mean from previous conversations on this forum I have the general feeling that Haitians feel like victims and I think honestly it's just another case where a Haitian feels like a victim. I mean Muchacho has no malice or ill-will when revealing these relevations. I know for a fact that Basque people are in Northern Spain and Southwest France in the Catalunya region where they speak a mix of French and Spanish. I'm not saying that Muchacho is right 100% but at the same time Jabao, don't take this an attack or an attempt to discredit Haitian ancestry.

Ya tu sabe loco mansito papa.



[/QUOTE]

I think Jabao didn't go that link I was referencing. He just assumed that what I meant by "not being French" last names, was aimed at "not being Haitian last names". I was referring to the inclusion of the Imberts and Espaillats as French immigrant families from France. Whether or not they had any Haitian blood was not the issue. The issue was the shoddy scholarship of the researchers in including those last names as French when they are in fact, Catalan.

This is the quote from that website that I was referencing:

Sería importante destacar en cápsulas posteriores los aportes a nuestra Independencia de otras familias extranjeras no hispanas o criollas, tales cómo: de Italia (Acosta, Billini, Cambiaso, Maggiolo, Piantini), Francia (Fondeur, Imbert, Bergés, Espaillat), Inglaterra (Teodoro Heneken), Curazao-Holanda (Leyba).

Translation:

It would be important to point out lastly, the contributions to our independence of other foreign NON-HISPANIC or creole families, such as: from Italy (Acosta, Billini, Cambiaso, Maggiolo, Piantini), France (Fondeur, Imbert, Bergés, Espaillat), England (Teodoro Heneken), Curaçao (Leyba).

[/QUOTE]

With evolution I mean, those last names are Dominican or Haitian. The euro part becomes less significant as people are not born there anymore and are from the Island solely.
[/QUOTE]

True. But from a historical context where you trace the provenance of families it is important.

Ny4life,

Manito escuchame bien. I am not a victim that is hilarious my friend. Dominicans haven't done anything to me and I have never allowed the confrontation between the two nations effect how I view dominicans that I have come into contact with and many I consider close friends. I am not into nationalistic debates when I feel both countries have done wrong not only to each other but to its own citizens respectively. I think you guys need to stop reading NGO articles and get into contact with haitains living a well in the DR.

Regarding these heros that are dominican that have haitian ancestry doesn't take the fact they are dominican heros. Even Gomez isn't viewed as haitian to us haitians rather a dominican of haitian ancestry just like Luperon,Duverge,Trujillo, and the ones mentioned in the link. I mean don't you see that the link was countered the minute it was posted. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Catalunya are mixture of Spanish & French. I actually can read it decently anyway besides the point. What is the factuation with europeans? This is the big difference between haitains & dominicans. Many pony ride the saddle of the europeans when in actuality the pony doesn't want you to ride it. I have never met spaniards talking about long lost cousins in Dominican Republic and seeing you as there people. Actually I think the dominicans are one of most infactuated group of people that is almost an obsession. Again I am generalising a population of 9 million. We all have ancestors in europe some way or another ok great but you aren't europeans. I personally dont care but you sure get a chuckle from others. I wish I can record a conversation between europeans regarding dominicans that would hurt the hell out of many. Cibaeno is one that knows his ancestry and acknowledges and keeps it moving as a dominican while others feel some sort of blue blood connect when it fact it isn't. Again these guys are dominican..and if haitian ancestry wasn't mention it would not be a discussion...if one was from spain ancestry..it would be seen as honor and no one would question it. Victim please señor, not me..far from it..again a big misconception my friend..


Lets not make this about muchacho. The minute I called him out using a translator and graduating from Sorbonne and meeting the princess Diana(exagerration) I knew he was a farse. One thing I can't stand is a fictional character that portrays as some sort of scholar..I called my own nationality out on this too..Im sure you read it..So I am an equal opportunity and it isn't because of ones nationality..One thing I know he have some special posters here..the internet creates better fantasies than Harry Potter, I prefer to stay in this dimension...If I want to go into wonderland I will just go to the library and search in the fictional section..I thought this forum was non fictional..

And here I thought that you considered that department an exclusivity of Rubirosa, jabao.

Anyway, I consider this genealogical debate a big waste of time, since it will not help in the process of actually finding solutions to the problems faced by the relations between both countries, in my humble opinion.

I see a battle on the horizon..pass the popcorn, lautaro...lol