| #21 - Posted 11 November 2009, 12:22 AM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 5742 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: AfroLatino1 previously said: Quote: devin11 previously said: Mr. Lautaro, That said, I think it would be disingenuous not to mention that if Dominicans in the US awoke to the same constitutional changes made upon them, there would be the very same accusations of racism and intolerance now being voiced by the opponents of constitutional change in the D.R. I would also suggest that amongst the most verbally and politically outspoken (should a similar US constitutional reform take place) you will find the most arduous nationalistic and xenophobic advocates that reside here at the forefront of opposition, and that too is ironic. People are always going to fall on the side that suits their best interest. This is not a racial issue in any way although it will be categorized as one. This is simply a matter of a nation trying to ensure it's historical and cultural attributes on one side and anyone who will be hindered by such a continuation on the other side. Thank you and well put. This is what Lautaro could not see me expressing or trying to convey here. And given the dynamical situation between DR and Haiti with any know historical resentments that still exist it begs for true intentions suspicions which many would still find to be discriminatory due to the fact that such society has not moved past the known xenophobic racial quandary. The bottom line, sir, is that the DR being a poor country can't grant its nationality to the citizens of a country which not only is poorer than itself, but also, that possess a higher birth rate than its own population, which would lead to a situation of ethnic, territorial and cultural displacement in a not so distant future. As for your whining for all the other foreigners, they're not numerically that significant (heck, they don't even make a quarter of a million together) and the majority prefer to use the DR as a bridge to the US (the case of the chinese and the cubans), so their impact is negligible at best. These are my last words for the night. Edited on 11/11/2009 12:28 AM by Lautaro. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
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| #22 - Posted 11 November 2009, 12:27 AM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2009 Member #: 3911 Posts: 431 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: Lautaro previously said: I'm against comparing both migrational situations because, as much as I would like for it to be otherwise, the DR is not the UK, nor Switzerland, nor Sweden, nor the Netherlands, and heck, not even Costa Rica or Chile. The DR, regrettably, is a third world country that have roughly half of its population below the line of poverty, and which would be thoroughly bankrupted if it committed the lunacy of shouldering more additional problems than the ones of its own, especially with the perverse economic and political institutions that it possess. It's easy for Afrolatino and the likes of him to judge the DR and demand it to absorb the economic refugees of its neighbor, but when the social bomb that the uncontrolled migration of a poor nation to another finally explodes here, it will not be his family the one affected, it will be mine and the ones of the many people that refuse or don't have the means to abandon this ship that we call our country. Cuz' revolutionary violence more often than not ends up swallowing and slaughtering the people less guilty in the social drama, and I definitely don't want me or my family to be in the middle of that crossfire. Granted DR is not all these other nations and is indeed a third-world nation unlike namely the mentioned imperials, however, migration is migration regardless to which specified territory migrants migrate. Migrants migrate indeed to territories where they believe better economic status would be much feasible for them, to include better social status and better quality of living that perhaps their current place of origin is not providing them. That much we both know. DR and Haiti would not have been DR and Haiti that they are today had European Spaniards and French not invaded, killed and infected the island with the psychological conditioning social ills of divide and conquer tactics which is being served as the premise for the still current deep xenophobic resentments that exist on the island today. I am sure most migrants regardless of creeds hope if they in fact settle on new territories that their sons and daughters would not have to, endure due to certain discriminative reprisals, be penalized or succumbed their very same fate. Edited on 11/11/2009 12:35 AM by AfroLatino1. |
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| #23 - Posted 11 November 2009, 12:45 AM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2009 Member #: 3911 Posts: 431 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: Lautaro previously said: As for your whining for all the other foreigners, they're not numerically that significant (heck, they don't even make a quarter of a million together) and the majority prefer to use the DR as a bridge to the US (the case of the chinese and the cubans), so their impact is negligible at best. These are my last words for the night. Illegality laws should not be based on the premises of numbers of a certain specific groups... If you are going to persecute illegals; creeds, skin colors and other discriminatory premises should not serve as a reasons as to gets persecuted or not. Otherwise it is fallibly a direct fallacy period regardless of how many time you try to use DR's socio-economical status in the world and your own xenophobic held resentments as an excuses for such fallacious Constitutional law. |
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| #24 - Posted 11 November 2009, 12:59 AM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2009 Member #: 2977 Posts: 2597 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: AfroLatino1 previously said: Quote: Lautaro previously said: As for your whining for all the other foreigners, they're not numerically that significant (heck, they don't even make a quarter of a million together) and the majority prefer to use the DR as a bridge to the US (the case of the chinese and the cubans), so their impact is negligible at best. These are my last words for the night. Illegality laws should not be based on the premises of numbers of a certain specific groups... If you are going to persecute illegals; creeds, skin colors and other discriminatory premises should not serve as a reasons as to gets persecuted or not. Otherwise it is fallibly a direct fallacy period regardless of how many time you try to use DR's socio-economical status in the world and your own xenophobic held resentments as an excuses for such fallacious Constitutional law. Completely true, but the DR is not landlocked with European countries. |
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| #25 - Posted 11 November 2009, 1:14 AM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2009 Member #: 3911 Posts: 431 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: ElTorodeCibao previously said: Completely true, but the DR is not landlocked with European countries. Oh I did not say that DR is "landlocked" with European countries, however, it is the demeanor of how things are operate in DR by those who flatter the skin color of the whites as sufficient cause to shelter them of persecutions thus deeming and validating the white foreigners whom may very well be just as illegals as Haitians in DR. Numbers and their significances are not the debate being discussed here per say... Regardless of how greater or lesser the number between the two might be, such immigration and constitutional law is not impartial all across the board for all illegal immigrants because the kids of those alleged illegal white foreigners get to have Dominican documents and I can attest to that since I have witnessed it done in DR many times. Meanwhile extreme focus are placed on the Haitians for all kinds of deep held resented beliefs towards them even when they do come out of the shadow and willing to pay, go through the proper legal court system or processes in effort to try to become legal that their such efforts are often met with fierce discriminative racism. Whereas it is at the discretion of those same prevalent corrupted officials and some racist Dominicans based on skin color and class caste system they actually choose who to persecute in DR. Indeed the white foreigners are protected based on presumptuous notions that the or a white man could not in fact at all be illegal is the kind of perverse mentality there in most parts in DR. As many Dominicans will deny, but can any Dominicans on here claim there are no actual undocumented white foreigners in DR for an exact certain assured fact? Also, when was the last time you ever her DR officials have ever arrested an undocumented white foreigner? Edited on 11/11/2009 1:42 AM by AfroLatino1. |
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| #26 - Posted 11 November 2009, 7:32 AM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 5742 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: AfroLatino1 previously said: Quote: ElTorodeCibao previously said: Completely true, but the DR is not landlocked with European countries. Oh I did not say that DR is "landlocked" with European countries, however, it is the demeanor of how things are operate in DR by those who flatter the skin color of the whites as sufficient cause to shelter them of persecutions thus deeming and validating the white foreigners whom may very well be just as illegals as Haitians in DR. Numbers and their significances are not the debate being discussed here per say... Regardless of how greater or lesser the number between the two might be, such immigration and constitutional law is not impartial all across the board for all illegal immigrants because the kids of those alleged illegal white foreigners get to have Dominican documents and I can attest to that since I have witnessed it done in DR many times. Meanwhile extreme focus are placed on the Haitians for all kinds of deep held resented beliefs towards them even when they do come out of the shadow and willing to pay, go through the proper legal court system or processes in effort to try to become legal that their such efforts are often met with fierce discriminative racism. Whereas it is at the discretion of those same prevalent corrupted officials and some racist Dominicans based on skin color and class caste system they actually choose who to persecute in DR. Indeed the white foreigners are protected based on presumptuous notions that the or a white man could not in fact at all be illegal is the kind of perverse mentality there in most parts in DR. As many Dominicans will deny, but can any Dominicans on here claim there are no actual undocumented white foreigners in DR for an exact certain assured fact? Also, when was the last time you ever her DR officials have ever arrested an undocumented white foreigner? Recently, the DR arrested two canadian evanlegical priests (Armand Huard and Denis Rochefort) accused of being child molesters, so please, drop the "DR don't persecute the white man because it loves him" crap, cuz' its getting old already. Furthermore, the difference between those european foreigners and your dear neg marrons is that, in the case of these foreigners committing a misdemeanor like the canadian guys in question, they're relatively easy to catch, and have documents in their persons to identify them, so the process of deportation is relatively easy, because the governments of their respective countries of origin don't put a thousand obstacles to their deportation as the haitian gov. does on a routinely basis whenever the dominican gov. want to deport their criminals. In the case of your neg marrons, they don't even have one scrap of paper on their possession to ascertain their true identity, so more often than not, the dominican state have to take their word or the one of other individuals in order to ascertain who the heck they are. This is a fact that even you can't deny, given that Haiti doesn't have, and never have had, a proper and efficient civil registry, specially on the provinces, where the people are forced to make the long trip (and spent a lot of money greasing hands left and right) to Port-Au-Prince, the only place in the country when one can get identification documents, in a process that can take as long as 150 days in the worst case scenario. And to add insult to injury, when the dominican state indeed gets to catch the delinquents (because their lack of identification and the insecure nature of the border makes them really hard to catch), the haitian state don't want to receive them "because they don't have documents proving their haitian citizenship". Puh-lease, you send us your trash and want us to make YOUR job of providing them with documents? Come on!! No wonder people here accuse the haitians of wanting to have the entire arm when one so much as gives them a hand. As the drug czar of the Clinton administration, Barry McCaffrey once told to the President and the military authorities of this country: "Dominicans, protect your borders and territory at all costs, cuz' regretfully, there's NO ONE on the other side of the border that you could count on in order to make a better job in the fight against the drug traffic." In other words, we're pretty much on our own. Edited on 11/11/2009 8:30 AM by Lautaro. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
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| #27 - Posted 11 November 2009, 8:50 AM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 5742 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution edited Edited on 11/11/2009 1:42 PM by Lautaro. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
Post IP/Country: 200.88.48.3* / DO | |
| #28 - Posted 11 November 2009, 7:20 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2009 Member #: 3911 Posts: 431 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: Lautaro previously said: Recently, the DR arrested two canadian evanlegical priests (Armand Huard and Denis Rochefort) accused of being child molesters, so please, drop the "DR don't persecute the white man because it loves him" crap, cuz' its getting old already. Yeah sure, Usually after and until the white foreigners ran out of money to buy the silence of those very corrupted official groups or had mishaps in payment as alway and ordinarily is the case in DR (lol). Giving single individual isolated incidents does not defeat the majority of such ill discriminative practice which is a reality in DR. Go read more reports on that since you have mistaken the location where the event had taken place. If you do not like when they compare oranges with apple why do you do it yourself. I mean, those two bastards are child molesters and they got arrested for such a crime, but not for illegality of migration/ immigration reasons. Since you claim this to be crap, thus tell me this. How many illegal White foreigners you can attest to have been deported through repatriation in DR? P.S: Which by the way, such event took place in Haiti, not in DR. http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ba814e0a-8f11-408d-b5c0-1b6af28ed000 Edited on 11/11/2009 7:28 PM by AfroLatino1. |
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| #29 - Posted 11 November 2009, 7:50 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 5742 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: AfroLatino1 previously said: Quote: Lautaro previously said: Recently, the DR arrested two canadian evanlegical priests (Armand Huard and Denis Rochefort) accused of being child molesters, so please, drop the "DR don't persecute the white man because it loves him" crap, cuz' its getting old already. Yeah sure, Usually after and until the white foreigners ran out of money to buy the silence of those very corrupted official groups or had mishaps in payment as alway and ordinarily is the case in DR (lol). Giving single individual isolated incidents does not defeat the majority of such ill discriminative practice which is a reality in DR. Go read more reports on that since you have mistaken the location where the event had taken place. If you do not like when they compare oranges with apple why do you do it yourself. I mean, those two bastards are child molesters and they got arrested for such a crime, but not for illegality of migration/ immigration reasons. Since you claim this to be crap, thus tell me this. How many illegal White foreigners you can attest to have been deported through repatriation in DR? P.S: Which by the way, such event took place in Haiti, not in DR. http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ba814e0a-8f11-408d-b5c0-1b6af28ed000 Many, along with chinese inmigrants, which ironically enough, came to the country via the dominican-haitian border, but that's not the case here. The point is, that no matter how many times you and others cry foul, the DR will resolve its haitian inmigration issue one way or another, and that solution, monsieur, will not necessarily be to your liking, and we don't have the duty for it to be so, our main duty being that this solution conform to our national interests and to our reality of a thirld world country with limited resources and myriad of other problems to solve, everything else be damned. If your own government and elites treat your people like trash, how do you realistically expect for others to act any differently? Create respect among yourselves first before asking others to respect you. Edited on 11/11/2009 7:53 PM by Lautaro. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
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| #30 - Posted 11 November 2009, 7:54 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2009 Member #: 3911 Posts: 431 | RE: Thumbs down on new Constitution Quote: Lautaro previously said: In the case of your neg marrons, they don't even have one scrap of paper on their possession to ascertain their true identity, so more often than not, the dominican state have to take their word or the one of other individuals in order to ascertain who the heck they are. This is a fact that even you can't deny, given that Haiti doesn't have, and never have had, a proper and efficient civil registry, specially on the provinces, where the people are forced to make the long trip (and spent a lot of money greasing hands left and right) to Port-Au-Prince, the only place in the country when one can get identification documents, in a process that can take as long as 150 days in the worst case scenario. And to add insult to injury, when the dominican state indeed gets to catch the delinquents (because their lack of identification and the insecure nature of the border makes them really hard to catch), the haitian state don't want to receive them "because they don't have documents proving their haitian citizenship". Puh-lease, you send us your trash and want us to make YOUR job of providing them with documents? Come on!! No wonder people here accuse the haitians of wanting to have the entire arm when one so much as gives them a hand. Aside the fact of your ill choice of words you have used to describe fellow human beings, granted I can still agree with you that Haiti is greatly responsible for those DR claim to be illegal undocumented migrants for partly the reasons you have listed above in regards to lack of administrated infrastructures to facilitate or to provide Haitians with proper documentations in Haiti because indeed in DR all it requires of a Haitian to be legal in DR is a valid recognized Haitian ID, birth certificate or unexpired pasaporte. However, what does the fate of the illegal parents have to do with the fate of Dominican-soil borns of Haitians? DR is responsible in part due to discriminative resented sentiments they have towards Haitians and would deny Haitians in all circumstance or effort they would make to become legal. |
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