Pepe,

Why after defeating us to win your independence, you allowed the Spanish to recolonized you again?
It is easy to throw mud at your neighbours hein?
I think our friend generoso has been wiser and less emotional than you, because he's using his brain instead of his nerves, Why don't you try to imitate him?

Oupalito ,you are not my friend and when your savage "armies" entered DR it was almost empty ,but once we got together and kicked your Arses out you were never able to beat our armies and we destroyed your armies over and over again,as far as the US only a raving idiot (Haitians) think they can stand up to the worlds most powerful nation but as I remember the US went into Haiti also and the garcons wet their panties and hid under their beds.

Beside each time haitian were going to war against dominicans, a STUPID WAS DOING A COUP D'ETAT AT P-A-P

(Soulouque)

If we are playing the "blame game" the biggest culprit and MOST responsible nation for the failure of Haiti as a nation is undoubtedly FRANCE. Because of these facts (not allegations):

The French were doing a very profitable sugar business in Haiti and importing many colonists from France. At the same time buying and/or trading goods under the "three way trade" for thousands and thousands of slaves in west Africa and shipping them under the most terrible conditions in slave ships, to the long journey to Haiti.
Once arrival in Haiti the slaves were underfed, brutalized, punished and treated worse than animals.
They were chained and whipped in a daily basis, and sometimes killed just for the amusement of their masters. The women were used as mistresses at an early age and paired with the best physical specimens, against their will. The conditions were so bad in Haiti that other slaves in nearby French possessions such as Martinique and Guadeloupe were threatened to be sent to Haiti as punishment if they didn't perform better, since that was the worse nightmare.
Meanwhile the Haitian colony was the richest and most prosperous settlement in the new world, and more French colonists kept coming to reap the benefits.
This explosive situation proved to be easily combustible, and the Haitian slaves (Estimated 500,000) that at the time outnumbered the French and Polish volunteers by a large margin, were rallied to revolt by Toussaint L'Overture who beat the French troops, and led the Haitian independence movement along with other former slaves.
When Toussaint was apparently tired and had suffered some military reversals, the French took advantage of this situation and incarcerated Toussaint, and he was sent back to France were he died a horrible and cruel death, in a remote dungeon, caused by cold and malnutrition.
His second in command, Dessalines who was illiterate and not as educated and groomed as Toussaint, (who was a francophile, and would have been a perfect statesman to lead Haiti into prosperity), instead Dessalines took the helm of the Haitian revolution, and him being a cruel, brutal and fierce soldier, not agreeable to compromise but to blood thirsty vendettas, carried Haiti into a self destruct mode which still exists today. Dessalines being responsible for the first Dominican massacres, genocide and attempts to exterminate our race, with his motto "koupe tet, boule kay" that were never forgiven and still remain in the memory of every Dominican national.
After Dessalines was assassinated by his own generals, the situation in Haiti became more fragmented, having different "kingdoms" in the north and in the south, and the slaves kept being brutalized except that now they were apparently "freed" with only three choices:
1. Work for the emperor and be paid 25% of the production. (maybe)
2. Join the Haitian army and be paid sometimes.
3. Run to the hills and become a cimarrón and live off the land. (many took that option).
The rest of the history we all know, a series of corrupt governments and dictators, plus the constant black mail by the French for the Haitians to finish paying their war reparations, that strangled the already many times bankrupt Haitian economy, since the French sugar colonists with their expertise in sugar production and refinement, had fled the island to Cuba, Florida, Louisiana and Puerto Rico and few to DR, and the Haitian sugar industry collapsed.

Let me take a bite at this one... We allowed for recolonization is misnomer... SANTANA allowed recolonization because he felt the country, with its lack of resources and low population could be overtaken. Remember that we owe our Freedom from haiti to him... On the other hand other Dominincan patriots didn't see it that way and fought the spaniards until final liberty from those who would presume that we are slaves.... And we didn't pay them to do it!

Can you really say that for all the 11 Invasions that haiti attempted on DR???

And even if it's true then that measn that you were not prepared for empire... First you needed a stable regime... How is that our fault? remember that Haitians outnumbered Dominicans 6 to 1.

Another link to Africa for Haiti.... After decolonization of Africa by the European powers, the African nations started to remove the Whites from the lands they wanted their supporters to have... A populist policy but desastrous... The whites left and the economy collapsed.... Look at Zimbawe, look at Haiti

Seems to me that Haitians can only do good when a Non-Haitian is running the show!

It is not as simple and "black versus white" as you put it Carlos. What the natives and slaves did not have were a few simple but crucial things:
1. Training, experience and education to manage and solve problems.
2. Quality control.
3. List of buyers waiting to purchase and knowledge of international commerce or "contacts" in other words.
So the "blancs" took their savvy and knowledge with them when they were killed or fled to other islands, but the fact has nothing to do with race questions.
So even if they could managed to run the sugar mills and turn out a good product then comes the question: Who will buy the sugar or rum or trade and with what terms? The French merchants had the business contacts and relationships, so having the final end product still meant nothing if you can't sell it or trade it at a profit.
The failure of populist governments, that try to run businesses comes from the fact that since they are not profit oriented, they tend to fail in the long run, like for example take the most profitable oil industry in Mexico and Venezuela, overburdened with employees and free spending, and not really investing in new explorations and reengineering to raise efficiency. The writing is on the wall for these corporations to fail, because they can not compete, if the price of oil drops slightly.

Great post generoso Haiti and Zimbabwe are 2 clear examples of 2 nations where the populations got rid of the only people who knew how to run an economy and a nation with the results we all know Mandela on the other hand knew that if he expelled all the people with knowledge they would collapse so he created a transition.I know that oupala would probably fall in the first category and would prefer killing all the blancs and probably would have torched the church in Moca but such is the mentality of savages who cut off their nose to spite their face. Unfortunately for the Haitians they still live in wonderland and fantasy makes a bad advisor.

Good post from pepe32 and generoso (good to see you post).

Can someone please give me their opinion on the following matter:

1. The schism between people of Afrodescendancy (blacks & mulattos) and Eurodescendants (whites) ran a thousand times deeper in Haiti than in DR.

2. There were wars/massacres that had racial overtones in Haiti, but not in DR.

3. The very foundations of Haiti have racial overtones (Dessalines), but the DR is based upon nationalism. Duarte was a true patriot, a man ahead of his time who knew and understood that we Dominicans are a diverse group of mixed heritage but one culture. He had no venom against Haiti despite the occupation.

4. Why does DR only have the last remnants of African American descendants in Samana who came over during Boyer, where is Haiti's?

5. To this day there are denigrating insulting terms in Haiti for people who are very dark skinned with stereotypical West African features.


So why so much racial obsession with DR? I stand by my opinion based on alot of cultural and historical facts that we are one of the most progressive countries regarding race relations. Whats with the double standard? By the way, I've spoken to Jamaicans and Brazilians who are versed in our history and they too agree on my conclusion.