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#611 - Posted 7 September 2011, 11:32 PM
Lautaro
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:

Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:

Notice noone here wants to apologize for ferrand and the kidnapping of children. The reaction is he wasn't Spanish sp ots not our fault.


Why should we? Ferrand was just the head of an occupation government that didn't represent our interests as a nation, just like Boyer would be two decades later.

Reread your comment. Lets move on. Its 2011.


There's nothing to re-read. Ferrand and his troops were the representatives of a foreign power, one that the nation living on this part of the island didn't identify itself with, the same with Boyer and the soldiery that would come on 1822 from the other part of the island. And yes, the Dominican nation was a reality long before we had the grace of having a state of our own, just like many ethnic groups from the past, the present and the future. You can't bullshit your way out of this saying that "Dominicans didn't exist before 1844", cuz' the experience and the historical chronicle says otherwise. Haven't we had this discussion already? Didn't I teach you how overmatched you are in this "debate", if it can be called such? Anyway, that's all for tonight. Hasta mañana.
"A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good."

Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince

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#612 - Posted 7 September 2011, 11:35 PM
Lautaro
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:

Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:


Notice how noone wants to apologize for ferrand order reinstating slavery and encouraging the people to kidnap children and forcing them into slavery. To anyone offended I'm not throwing dirt on anyone face all I'm saying is tell the whole truth.



The truth here is that you can't produce a single piece of paper providing the name of even a single eastern family participating in said crime. Until you do such, your accusations will be moot and groundless. Will you blame Iraqis for the things done under the provisional gov. of Paul Bremer now?

Which families stood to gain financially from this free labor? Those families returned from Cuba Venezuela, etc. Remember follow the money trail.

Lets move on. Its 2011 well be gone soon. All I said is tell the whole story.


Very few of those families, if any, ever returned here. The Arredondos of Cuba are a prime example of this, so again, your point is moot and baseless. The majority of the families of the oligarchy like the Vicinis are ones that came here for the first time after the Republic was proclaimed for the second time (against Spain), so that's another fail for you.
"A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good."

Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince

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#613 - Posted 8 September 2011, 12:47 AM
BernardJeanPierre
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
Micaela previously said:

Quote:
BernardJeanPierre previously said:

1) Many ancient civilizations practiced some form of Slavery at one time or another. Modern-day slavery still exist in some Countries.

2) There is NOBODY that can look back at their ancestors and say, "oh you guys didn't do anything wrong". Indians killed and enslaved other Indians. Africans killed and enslaved other Africans. Europeans.........Asians..........etc etc etc. Remember, what happened to the Taino?? They did not wipe themselves out.

3) Many political figures are both revered and reviled. Dessalines, Trujillo, Stalin, Hitler etc (not to imply that they were all of the same 'type') point is, some people appreciate SOME of the things they did, while other despise for some of the things they did. Dessalines and Trujillo are similar in the sense that although they committed horrible atrocities against innocent people, they also helped the progress of their respective Nations.

4) The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was NOT simply a magnified manifestation of what other African Nations did to each other. The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was a completely new form and system of slavery, not a borrowed idea. The type of slavery practiced by some African nations to enslave a captive war victim was practiced extensively in Africa, Asia and far beyond.

The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was supported by the Africans who supplied the blacks to the slave traders. It might have nothing to do with slavery as they knew it or practiced it, but the fact is that they did it for profit; Ignoranceisbliss said it was alcohol, trinkets, mirrors or guns, but whatever it was, it was important enough for them to hunt and sell their brother. Now if Dominicans should apologize for the actions of the occupying French governors, of which we were not responsible, Africans apologies are due first


First, I was not even apart of that previous conversation about Domincans apologizing for the actions of the French Governors, so yea. I don't really have an opinion as far as that goes. And yes many of them did it simply as a bartering tool. But the trans-atlantic slave trade was another beast entirely.
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#614 - Posted 8 September 2011, 5:39 AM
ignoranceisbliss
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
Micaela previously said:

Quote:
BernardJeanPierre previously said:

1) Many ancient civilizations practiced some form of Slavery at one time or another. Modern-day slavery still exist in some Countries.

2) There is NOBODY that can look back at their ancestors and say, "oh you guys didn't do anything wrong". Indians killed and enslaved other Indians. Africans killed and enslaved other Africans. Europeans.........Asians..........etc etc etc. Remember, what happened to the Taino?? They did not wipe themselves out.

3) Many political figures are both revered and reviled. Dessalines, Trujillo, Stalin, Hitler etc (not to imply that they were all of the same 'type') point is, some people appreciate SOME of the things they did, while other despise for some of the things they did. Dessalines and Trujillo are similar in the sense that although they committed horrible atrocities against innocent people, they also helped the progress of their respective Nations.

4) The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was NOT simply a magnified manifestation of what other African Nations did to each other. The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was a completely new form and system of slavery, not a borrowed idea. The type of slavery practiced by some African nations to enslave a captive war victim was practiced extensively in Africa, Asia and far beyond.

The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was supported by the Africans who supplied the blacks to the slave traders. It might have nothing to do with slavery as they knew it or practiced it, but the fact is that they did it for profit; Ignoranceisbliss said it was alcohol, trinkets, mirrors or guns, but whatever it was, it was important enough for them to hunt and sell their brother. Now if Dominicans should apologize for the actions of the occupying French governors, of which we were not responsible, Africans apologies are due first

I rest my case. Still dancing around the comment. Lol.
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#615 - Posted 8 September 2011, 9:50 AM
Micaela
Location: Dominican Republic
Join date: June 2009
Member #: 2945
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:

Quote:
Micaela previously said:

Quote:
BernardJeanPierre previously said:

1) Many ancient civilizations practiced some form of Slavery at one time or another. Modern-day slavery still exist in some Countries.

2) There is NOBODY that can look back at their ancestors and say, "oh you guys didn't do anything wrong". Indians killed and enslaved other Indians. Africans killed and enslaved other Africans. Europeans.........Asians..........etc etc etc. Remember, what happened to the Taino?? They did not wipe themselves out.

3) Many political figures are both revered and reviled. Dessalines, Trujillo, Stalin, Hitler etc (not to imply that they were all of the same 'type') point is, some people appreciate SOME of the things they did, while other despise for some of the things they did. Dessalines and Trujillo are similar in the sense that although they committed horrible atrocities against innocent people, they also helped the progress of their respective Nations.

4) The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was NOT simply a magnified manifestation of what other African Nations did to each other. The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was a completely new form and system of slavery, not a borrowed idea. The type of slavery practiced by some African nations to enslave a captive war victim was practiced extensively in Africa, Asia and far beyond.

The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was supported by the Africans who supplied the blacks to the slave traders. It might have nothing to do with slavery as they knew it or practiced it, but the fact is that they did it for profit; Ignoranceisbliss said it was alcohol, trinkets, mirrors or guns, but whatever it was, it was important enough for them to hunt and sell their brother. Now if Dominicans should apologize for the actions of the occupying French governors, of which we were not responsible, Africans apologies are due first

I rest my case. Still dancing around the comment. Lol.

Resting your case? So finally you saw the light and that you should move on, because this is 2011 and Ferrand’s actions were no in 2010. Maybe you also realized that if we are responsible for the actions of Ferrand, then we are also responsible for Boyer’s large-scale land expropriations, imposed military services, banning of Spanish and Catholic religion and the elimination of our traditional customs. Would you also say that with a straight face?
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#616 - Posted 8 September 2011, 10:24 AM
cibaeño75
Location: United States, New York City
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Member #: 411
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:

Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:


Notice how noone wants to apologize for ferrand order reinstating slavery and encouraging the people to kidnap children and forcing them into slavery. To anyone offended I'm not throwing dirt on anyone face all I'm saying is tell the whole truth.



The truth here is that you can't produce a single piece of paper providing the name of even a single eastern family participating in said crime. Until you do such, your accusations will be moot and groundless. Will you blame Iraqis for the things done under the provisional gov. of Paul Bremer now?

Which families stood to gain financially from this free labor? Those families returned from Cuba Venezuela, etc. Remember follow the money trail.

Lets move on. Its 2011 well be gone soon. All I said is tell the whole story.


Very few of those families, if any, ever returned here. The Arredondos of Cuba are a prime example of this, so again, your point is moot and baseless. The majority of the families of the oligarchy like the Vicinis are ones that came here for the first time after the Republic was proclaimed for the second time (against Spain), so that's another fail for you.



Only someone with no understanding of our history would see Ferrand as representative of the Dominican people. Ferrand was a conqueror in the service of another nation...and many hispanic families conitnued to leave under him. Our ancestors weren't happy under Ferrand. They bided their time and served him his just desserts. The Battle of Palo Hincado where our ancestors bathed themselves in glory bears witness to what we though of Ferrand. Ferrands' head made its way to El Seibo in a basket afterwards. It's not for the Dominican people to apologize or own up to ANYTHING Ferrand did. For the parties responsible you would need to go to the French. Incidentally, the Battle of Palo Hincado marked the expulsion of the French from Hispaniola and contributed in no small way to Haiti's consolidation of its independence for it denied the French forever a beach head on our island. The ironies of history.
Edited on 9/8/2011 10:29 AM by cibaeño75.
"If you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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#617 - Posted 8 September 2011, 10:05 PM
generoso
Location: United States, Quisqueya
Join date: August 2008
Member #: 1291
Posts: 9150
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RE: DOMINICAN HOLOCAUST-Apologies in order?
Quote:
cibaeño75 previously said:

Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:

Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
ignoranceisbliss previously said:


Notice how noone wants to apologize for ferrand order reinstating slavery and encouraging the people to kidnap children and forcing them into slavery. To anyone offended I'm not throwing dirt on anyone face all I'm saying is tell the whole truth.



The truth here is that you can't produce a single piece of paper providing the name of even a single eastern family participating in said crime. Until you do such, your accusations will be moot and groundless. Will you blame Iraqis for the things done under the provisional gov. of Paul Bremer now?

Which families stood to gain financially from this free labor? Those families returned from Cuba Venezuela, etc. Remember follow the money trail.

Lets move on. Its 2011 well be gone soon. All I said is tell the whole story.


Very few of those families, if any, ever returned here. The Arredondos of Cuba are a prime example of this, so again, your point is moot and baseless. The majority of the families of the oligarchy like the Vicinis are ones that came here for the first time after the Republic was proclaimed for the second time (against Spain), so that's another fail for you.



Only someone with no understanding of our history would see Ferrand as representative of the Dominican people. Ferrand was a conqueror in the service of another nation...and many hispanic families conitnued to leave under him. Our ancestors weren't happy under Ferrand. They bided their time and served him his just desserts. The Battle of Palo Hincado where our ancestors bathed themselves in glory bears witness to what we though of Ferrand. Ferrands' head made its way to El Seibo in a basket afterwards. It's not for the Dominican people to apologize or own up to ANYTHING Ferrand did. For the parties responsible you would need to go to the French. Incidentally, the Battle of Palo Hincado marked the expulsion of the French from Hispaniola and contributed in no small way to Haiti's consolidation of its independence for it denied the French forever a beach head on our island. The ironies of history.


Good point, let's add that to the moral debt that Haiti owes the DR
Edited on 9/8/2011 10:06 PM by generoso.
Ignorance is temporary, stupidity lasts forever.
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