Dominican Today Forum » Living in the DR » General Info » Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
#11 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:25 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
generoso previously said:

Quote:
anthonyC previously said:

Castro is not a fool. One of the first things he did was disarm the population. This pretty much ends any idea of the people rising up and toppling him like they did the regimes in Libya and Egypt.

He then made sure that the military got a big piece of the $$$. Every time a tourist checks into a hotel in Cuba some of that money goes into the General's, Colonel's, Major's and Captain's pockets trickling down to lowly Lieutenants.
Any military honcho who didn't play ball or got to big for his britches was quickly smacked down...Remember General Ochoa? So forget a military coup.

Then he has played the race card better than Jesse Jackson. Even though a look at the Cuban leadership will present a sea of white folk his propaganda machine has convinced the blacks on the Island that they are better of under him.


Bullshit, when there is a will there is a way. Dominicans didn't have any sizable weapons when they killed Trujillo, only a few pistols and revolvers, old shotguns that jammed, and three WWII M-1 carbines, donated by the US.
The populace in Libya didn't have any weapons either, they got them from the police and then when they assaulted the army barracks.
Go back in recent history all the way back to the french revolution, and the riots started with unarmed citizens, and then the citizens armed themselves. That is just an excuse that displays the Cubans unwillingness for democratic change.
If the Cuban populace rises to the occasion and hits the streets, with the right attitude not to worry so much about being shot, or imprisoned, then change will come.
But if cozy, lazy, fat, and rich guys like you, are just watching things from far away and counting their assets every day, while racing their expensive sailboats .........Forget about it!



As much as it pains me to admit it, aC has a point here, general, specially since it was people from Trujillo's own inner circle the ones that would dispatch him, not your regular unarmed joe on the street. Unless the USA can play on any perceived discontent around Castro's inner circle, I'm afraid that the Cubans will have to sit this one out until both Castros die.
Edited on 10/21/2011 3:29 PM by Lautaro.
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#12 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:27 PM
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
Atabey previously said:


The lack of fire arms among the population is a well known fact of life in Cuba. Knives and clubs you have, but no way will you be able to fight against the military with those instruments



This is also a fact of life in Chile too, and it makes a lot of difference there, since they have as much social inequality as the DR, yet you don't see there the astounding crimes you would see over here.
"A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good."

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#13 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:37 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
generoso previously said:



Bullshit, when there is a will there is a way. Dominicans didn't have any sizable weapons when they killed Trujillo, only a few pistols and revolvers, old shotguns that jammed, and three WWII M-1 carbines, donated by the US.
The populace in Libya didn't have any weapons either, they got them from the police and then when they assaulted the army barracks.
Go back in recent history all the way back to the french revolution, and the riots started with unarmed citizens, and then the citizens armed themselves. That is just an excuse that displays the Cubans unwillingness for democratic change.
If the Cuban populace rises to the occasion and hits the streets, with the right attitude not to worry so much about being shot, or imprisoned, then change will come.
But if cozy, lazy, fat, and rich guys like you, are just watching things from far away and counting their assets every day, while racing their expensive sailboats .........Forget about it!




First off even you admit that the small group of men who assassinated Trujillo were armed. And it was an Assassination not a popular uprising. In fact after Trujillo was killed nothing changed for awhile until US pressure forced elections in 1963

Libya was flush with weapons as Gaddafi had armed various tribal groups around the nation to maintain order and had huge stockpiles of weapons stashed all around the nation. Then Islamic militants also funnel weapons to the rebels across the border from Algeria and Egypt.

And lets us not forget if it wasn't for the European and US military assistance Gaddafi would probably be sipping Margaritas at a villa on the Med right now.
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#14 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:40 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
generoso previously said:

Quote:
anthonyC previously said:

Castro is not a fool. One of the first things he did was disarm the population. This pretty much ends any idea of the people rising up and toppling him like they did the regimes in Libya and Egypt.

He then made sure that the military got a big piece of the $$$. Every time a tourist checks into a hotel in Cuba some of that money goes into the General's, Colonel's, Major's and Captain's pockets trickling down to lowly Lieutenants.
Any military honcho who didn't play ball or got to big for his britches was quickly smacked down...Remember General Ochoa? So forget a military coup.

Then he has played the race card better than Jesse Jackson. Even though a look at the Cuban leadership will present a sea of white folk his propaganda machine has convinced the blacks on the Island that they are better of under him.


Bullshit, when there is a will there is a way. Dominicans didn't have any sizable weapons when they killed Trujillo, only a few pistols and revolvers, old shotguns that jammed, and three WWII M-1 carbines, donated by the US.
The populace in Libya didn't have any weapons either, they got them from the police and then when they assaulted the army barracks.
Go back in recent history all the way back to the french revolution, and the riots started with unarmed citizens, and then the citizens armed themselves. That is just an excuse that displays the Cubans unwillingness for democratic change.
If the Cuban populace rises to the occasion and hits the streets, with the right attitude not to worry so much about being shot, or imprisoned, then change will come.
But if cozy, lazy, fat, and rich guys like you, are just watching things from far away and counting their assets every day, while racing their expensive sailboats .........Forget about it!



As much as it pains me to admit it, aC has a point here, general, specially since it was people from Trujillo's own inner circle the ones that would dispatch him, not your regular joe on the street. Unless the USA can play on any perceived discontent around Castro's inner circle, I'm afraid that the Cubans will have to sit this one out until both Castros die.


And what exactly was his point?
Trujillo's hit men, where all many years out of favor with the regime, and frankly outcasts, with one exception: Amado Garcia Guerrero who was an active lieutenant with the presidential guard.
Cuban legend General Ochoa was tricked by Fidel, who lied to him while imprisoned and promised him that he would pardon him at the end, because he was a hero of the revolution. It turned out that Fidel did not pardon him, so he would remain suspiciously silent throughout his kangaroo trial.
The people of Poland didn't have weapons, or many other formerly eastern block countries, like Rumania, who had a brutal dictatorship.
When I sat down with General José Miguel Soto Jimenez, and argued with him in a "tertulia" at his offices in SD, regarding his forensic study of the Trujillo assassination, and shared my view that the assassination could not have been carried, successfully, without the US supplied M-1 carbines, he replied: When a person or a group of persons are committed to killing somebody, nothing stops them at the end, except hesitating in their irrevocable desire for vengeance.
Edited on 10/21/2011 3:43 PM by generoso.
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#15 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:47 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
His point, general, is that you can't realistically expect the Cuban people to make a coup with their mere fists. The only way this could happen is if a faction of the military sided with them and armed them, as it happened here during the 1965 civil war, when the triumvirate was toppled.
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#16 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:48 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

Quote:
Atabey previously said:


The lack of fire arms among the population is a well known fact of life in Cuba. Knives and clubs you have, but no way will you be able to fight against the military with those instruments



This is also a fact of life in Chile too, and it makes a lot of difference there, since they have as much social inequality as the DR, yet you don't see there the astounding crimes you would see over here.



Chile has a very different historical tradition, not withstanding its colonial Spanish heritage, with the DR. Also, it's level of educational achievement mark it as one of the leading places in Latin America. And this has a long tradition dating back to the establishment of the republic. Read Sarmiento and others on this. The National Educational system has had several different changes and was onced modeled after US influenced. This was during the 19th century Chile has produced Two Nobel Laureates to zero for DR And lastly, the economic dynamics are huge with Chile having transitioned from a rather closed economy to an open economy with very strong growth. Lastly, you are correct that social inequalities are very high in Chile, as they are in DR.
Edited on 10/21/2011 3:51 PM by Atabey.

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#17 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:55 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

His point, general, is that you can't realistically expect the Cuban people to make a coup with their mere fists. The only way this could happen is if a faction of the military sided with them and armed them, as it happened here during the 1965 civil war, when the triumvirate was toppled.


I agree, but his argument is that the army is being paid off by Castro is null, because the army is composed of thousands of the lower ranks, that are not getting payolas.
I propose mass civilian demonstrations demanding a Cuban plebiscite, supervised and sanctioned by international UN observers, with two simple answers yes or no. Do the Cuban people want the Castro's to continue in power? or do they want some more options? Fidel did not agree to this, a few years back, because he knew after what happened in Chile's Pinochet government, that this was a lose-lose gamble.
Peaceful demonstrations can bring about the plebiscite, if heavily financed from abroad. If hundreds of thousands of Cubans, hit the streets, change will come.
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#18 - Posted 21 October 2011, 3:56 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

His point, general, is that you can't realistically expect the Cuban people to make a coup with their mere fists. The only way this could happen is if a faction of the military sided with them and armed them, as it happened here during the 1965 civil war, when the triumvirate was toppled.



Furthermore, the US had assets within the Church, Balaguer , and others willing to do the dirty job.

Cuba has formidable resources and talented agents at its service. And don't forget that the Castro bothers still have a significant level of support within Cuba. Don't discount the Nationalistic element in all this.

"If you want to sleep well at night, it's best to avoid watching the making of sausages or politics." Otto Von Bismarck
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#19 - Posted 21 October 2011, 4:04 PM
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RE: Gaddafi's over! Are Castro's next?
Quote:
Atabey previously said:

Quote:
Lautaro previously said:

His point, general, is that you can't realistically expect the Cuban people to make a coup with their mere fists. The only way this could happen is if a faction of the military sided with them and armed them, as it happened here during the 1965 civil war, when the triumvirate was toppled.



Furthermore, the US had assets within the Church, Balaguer , and others willing to do the dirty job.

Cuba has formidable resources and talented agents at its service. And don't forget that the Castro bothers still have a significant level of support within Cuba. Don't discount the Nationalistic element in all this.


Exactly, we must not forget the nationalistic element. Fidel is always preaching to the Cubans that the exiles "gusanos" are going to come back and take their real estate and holdings back from them.
This is why is so important to stress what happened to property in East Germany after the reunification.
And remove the damned economic blockade, without pre-conditions, that hurts the Cuban economy so much. The key to removing the Castro's is canceling the economic blockade that the US insists on upholding, even against US economic private interests.
Edited on 10/21/2011 4:05 PM by generoso.
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