The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican - Santo Domingo

#35 - Posted 5 November 2011, 10:55 AM
Edwin514 Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2010 Member #: 6273 Posts: 81	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: xwill7 previously said: Quote: Lemba previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: I keep telling Lemba the same thing, that the Cibaeno culture is predominately made up of people who are rustic/rural, with a Mediterranean swarthy-complexion, strong Spanish/European culture yet still present Taino influences. He seems to want for some reason to over emphasize what ever African elements present in the region and minimize the european, when in fact the cibao is the only one single place where African characteristics is not accentuated as much as in other regions of the DR. This is where you are very wrong, on the racial components of the Cibao. It is very clear that the Cibao is tri-racial culturally, and there is no real Spanish dominance, our decima culture is very much dead. And our forms of Decima have deviated greatly from Spain. This is not to say there is obvious European influence in the cibao, for example Bachata is very European in its singing form as it is mostly sang in coplas. ALthough its drumming is obviously African, and its dancing as well. Our Perico ripiao and Palos is obviously very African influenced, i am speaking frmo the point of view of someone who plays music, is a musician, i can give you all the terms and all the details and nitty gritty upon request of why these genres are pred. African. Boleros however are very much spanish, but did not become common till the mexicans introduced them in the 1940s. As far as looks, that is also very wrong. I think you are speaking for like Sajoma, And Sajoma only. Ive been to many parts of the cibao, grew up in san francisco de macoris, pimentel, caobete, and much of the duarte province, and there are PLENTY of people who don't fit that description. Places like s.f.m have both the phenotype you mentioned and the dark afro-inidegenous types, the dark west african looking type, and the str8 indegenous looking types. In places such as Pimentel, Caobete, Villa Riva, the predominant look of the population is Afro-indegenous and Griffe (pred. afro). Same can be said for most of Cotui, and a good chunk of Nagua. That is not to say that these mediterrenean looking types exist, they DO exist, but they are NOT the posterboys for Cibao looks. This stereotype ive only seen on the internet, and in person only from people who are not cibaenyos and have met 3 santiagueros, think eveyone in the cibao looks like that. You just need to go on a bus from the Capital to Cotui and see the phenotypes on those buses, the voladora buses. That stereotype clearly doesn't fit. I don't fit that steroetype, nor my father or my mother, not anyone in this or the last generation. But perhaps there are 2 of my great grandparents that do fit this stereotype, does that make them the only 2 cibaenyo looking ppl in my family? No, thats pretty stupid. As far as me over-emphazising African characteristics, not true. I am simply stating the truth, the facts about our music and culture in the cibao, and in this case the speech, giving examples of my own family. And you guys KEEP ignoring the Indegenous element that i keep bringing up OVER and OVER, and so i am not indigenizing the cibao, but i am Africanizing it? There is not one post i have made where i dont include both. It is clear that you and some other people on this forum have an Agenda. I can see that there have been Afrocentric posters in the past hat have made you this jittery of hearing African contributions to the cibao/D.R. But keep in mind that i am not some Afrocentric troll, i don't argue for argue's sake, this is a academic debate, this is not about emotions or feelings. Everything i am telling you i can backup. Ive seen it twice already where i post about indegenous/afro contributions and the afro gets singled out. IT is not true that the Cibao is less African culturally then the rest of the island. In fact there are places in the island which are MORE European, it all depends on the sub-region or town,city. It is true that Central Santiago and parts of La Vega have less African influence then say Salcedo, San Francisco de Macoris, Cotui, Dajabon, Samana, Puertoplata, Mao. But is Santiago and a corner of La Vega the whole cibao? No. So if your saying that Central-Santiago is less African culturally, perhaps that is debataable, the whole cibao not at all. For comparisons sake lets compare Central Santiago with Bani. While Bani has strong African influence such as Sarandunga, it also has very strong European influences. In fact, Bani has decimas just like Santiago, and ontop of that it ha Chuines which are Canarian descendant work songs, something absent in Santiago. And if you wana go by phenotypes white Banilejos look alot purer in an eyeball test then any self claimed white in Santiago. They are also less indegenous in Bani, while Santiago has more indegenous influence. The Lack of Palo in some campos in Santiago is not due to lack of Africans but rather a different subset of Africans, the African component in these pred. European towns of Santiago is from teh first Africans to arrive on the island, the Mande, the Wolof and other Senengambian's. The Tambora from Merengue is CLEARLY a Mande/Bara instrument. For Fun, here is a poster boy for a book on the Cibao, which i recomend for you to read, and anyone on this forum, to get an insight on the agrarian reforms and the ferrocarril, and other things Cibaenyo. http://www.amazon.com/Los-Campesinos-del-Cibao-Transformacion/dp/0847702308 I have not seen many cibaenos like the one in that pic. In fact I think that he must be from across the border. Also, It is not just in Sajoma where you can find real cibaenos. I can name the towns if you need me to. I'm just curious but X what is a "real cibaeño"? and why do you think he must be from a cross the border? Edited on 11/5/2011 10:59 AM by Edwin514.
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RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican

Quote:

xwill7 previously said:

Quote:

Lemba previously said:

Quote:

guillermone previously said:

I keep telling Lemba the same thing, that the Cibaeno culture is predominately made up of people who are rustic/rural, with a Mediterranean swarthy-complexion, strong Spanish/European culture yet still present Taino influences. He seems to want for some reason to over emphasize what ever African elements present in the region and minimize the european, when in fact the cibao is the only one single place where African characteristics is not accentuated as much as in other regions of the DR.

This is where you are very wrong, on the racial components of the Cibao. It is very clear that the Cibao is tri-racial culturally, and there is no real Spanish dominance, our decima culture is very much dead. And our forms of Decima have deviated greatly from Spain. This is not to say there is obvious European influence in the cibao, for example Bachata is very European in its singing form as it is mostly sang in coplas. ALthough its drumming is obviously African, and its dancing as well. Our Perico ripiao and Palos is obviously very African influenced, i am speaking frmo the point of view of someone who plays music, is a musician, i can give you all the terms and all the details and nitty gritty upon request of why these genres are pred. African. Boleros however are very much spanish, but did not become common till the mexicans introduced them in the 1940s.

As far as looks, that is also very wrong. I think you are speaking for like Sajoma, And Sajoma only. Ive been to many parts of the cibao, grew up in san francisco de macoris, pimentel, caobete, and much of the duarte province, and there are PLENTY of people who don't fit that description. Places like s.f.m have both the phenotype you mentioned and the dark afro-inidegenous types, the dark west african looking type, and the str8 indegenous looking types. In places such as Pimentel, Caobete, Villa Riva, the predominant look of the population is Afro-indegenous and Griffe (pred. afro). Same can be said for most of Cotui, and a good chunk of Nagua. That is not to say that these mediterrenean looking types exist, they DO exist, but they are NOT the posterboys for Cibao looks. This stereotype ive only seen on the internet, and in person only from people who are not cibaenyos and have met 3 santiagueros, think eveyone in the cibao looks like that.

You just need to go on a bus from the Capital to Cotui and see the phenotypes on those buses, the voladora buses.

That stereotype clearly doesn't fit. I don't fit that steroetype, nor my father or my mother, not anyone in this or the last generation. But perhaps there are 2 of my great grandparents that do fit this stereotype, does that make them the only 2 cibaenyo looking ppl in my family? No, thats pretty stupid.

As far as me over-emphazising African characteristics, not true. I am simply stating the truth, the facts about our music and culture in the cibao, and in this case the speech, giving examples of my own family. And you guys KEEP ignoring the Indegenous element that i keep bringing up OVER and OVER, and so i am not indigenizing the cibao, but i am Africanizing it? There is not one post i have made where i dont include both. It is clear that you and some other people on this forum have an Agenda. I can see that there have been Afrocentric posters in the past hat have made you this jittery of hearing African contributions to the cibao/D.R. But keep in mind that i am not some Afrocentric troll, i don't argue for argue's sake, this is a academic debate, this is not about emotions or feelings. Everything i am telling you i can backup. Ive seen it twice already where i post about indegenous/afro contributions and the afro gets singled out.

IT is not true that the Cibao is less African culturally then the rest of the island. In fact there are places in the island which are MORE European, it all depends on the sub-region or town,city. It is true that Central Santiago and parts of La Vega have less African influence then say Salcedo, San Francisco de Macoris, Cotui, Dajabon, Samana, Puertoplata, Mao. But is Santiago and a corner of La Vega the whole cibao? No. So if your saying that Central-Santiago is less African culturally, perhaps that is debataable, the whole cibao not at all.

For comparisons sake lets compare Central Santiago with Bani.

While Bani has strong African influence such as Sarandunga, it also has very strong European influences. In fact, Bani has decimas just like Santiago, and ontop of that it ha Chuines which are Canarian descendant work songs, something absent in Santiago. And if you wana go by phenotypes white Banilejos look alot purer in an eyeball test then any self claimed white in Santiago. They are also less indegenous in Bani, while Santiago has more indegenous influence.

The Lack of Palo in some campos in Santiago is not due to lack of Africans but rather a different subset of Africans, the African component in these pred. European towns of Santiago is from teh first Africans to arrive on the island, the Mande, the Wolof and other Senengambian's. The Tambora from Merengue is CLEARLY a Mande/Bara instrument.

For Fun, here is a poster boy for a book on the Cibao, which i recomend for you to read, and anyone on this forum, to get an insight on the agrarian reforms and the ferrocarril, and other things Cibaenyo.

http://www.amazon.com/Los-Campesinos-del-Cibao-Transformacion/dp/0847702308

I have not seen many cibaenos like the one in that pic. In fact I think that he must be from across the border. Also, It is not just in Sajoma where you can find real cibaenos. I can name the towns if you need me to.

Hey Xwill, name them towns pa yo cojer pa'lla! jejejeje!!

Edited on 11/5/2011 3:47 PM by Perez.

#31 - Posted 4 November 2011, 5:20 PM
Lemba Location: Dominican Republic Join date: September 2008 Member #: 1388 Posts: 74	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: guillermone previously said: I keep telling Lemba the same thing, that the Cibaeno culture is predominately made up of people who are rustic/rural, with a Mediterranean swarthy-complexion, strong Spanish/European culture yet still present Taino influences. He seems to want for some reason to over emphasize what ever African elements present in the region and minimize the european, when in fact the cibao is the only one single place where African characteristics is not accentuated as much as in other regions of the DR. This is where you are very wrong, on the racial components of the Cibao. It is very clear that the Cibao is tri-racial culturally, and there is no real Spanish dominance, our decima culture is very much dead. And our forms of Decima have deviated greatly from Spain. This is not to say there is obvious European influence in the cibao, for example Bachata is very European in its singing form as it is mostly sang in coplas. ALthough its drumming is obviously African, and its dancing as well. Our Perico ripiao and Palos is obviously very African influenced, i am speaking frmo the point of view of someone who plays music, is a musician, i can give you all the terms and all the details and nitty gritty upon request of why these genres are pred. African. Boleros however are very much spanish, but did not become common till the mexicans introduced them in the 1940s. As far as looks, that is also very wrong. I think you are speaking for like Sajoma, And Sajoma only. Ive been to many parts of the cibao, grew up in san francisco de macoris, pimentel, caobete, and much of the duarte province, and there are PLENTY of people who don't fit that description. Places like s.f.m have both the phenotype you mentioned and the dark afro-inidegenous types, the dark west african looking type, and the str8 indegenous looking types. In places such as Pimentel, Caobete, Villa Riva, the predominant look of the population is Afro-indegenous and Griffe (pred. afro). Same can be said for most of Cotui, and a good chunk of Nagua. That is not to say that these mediterrenean looking types exist, they DO exist, but they are NOT the posterboys for Cibao looks. This stereotype ive only seen on the internet, and in person only from people who are not cibaenyos and have met 3 santiagueros, think eveyone in the cibao looks like that. You just need to go on a bus from the Capital to Cotui and see the phenotypes on those buses, the voladora buses. That stereotype clearly doesn't fit. I don't fit that steroetype, nor my father or my mother, not anyone in this or the last generation. But perhaps there are 2 of my great grandparents that do fit this stereotype, does that make them the only 2 cibaenyo looking ppl in my family? No, thats pretty stupid. As far as me over-emphazising African characteristics, not true. I am simply stating the truth, the facts about our music and culture in the cibao, and in this case the speech, giving examples of my own family. And you guys KEEP ignoring the Indegenous element that i keep bringing up OVER and OVER, and so i am not indigenizing the cibao, but i am Africanizing it? There is not one post i have made where i dont include both. It is clear that you and some other people on this forum have an Agenda. I can see that there have been Afrocentric posters in the past hat have made you this jittery of hearing African contributions to the cibao/D.R. But keep in mind that i am not some Afrocentric troll, i don't argue for argue's sake, this is a academic debate, this is not about emotions or feelings. Everything i am telling you i can backup. Ive seen it twice already where i post about indegenous/afro contributions and the afro gets singled out. IT is not true that the Cibao is less African culturally then the rest of the island. In fact there are places in the island which are MORE European, it all depends on the sub-region or town,city. It is true that Central Santiago and parts of La Vega have less African influence then say Salcedo, San Francisco de Macoris, Cotui, Dajabon, Samana, Puertoplata, Mao. But is Santiago and a corner of La Vega the whole cibao? No. So if your saying that Central-Santiago is less African culturally, perhaps that is debataable, the whole cibao not at all. For comparisons sake lets compare Central Santiago with Bani. While Bani has strong African influence such as Sarandunga, it also has very strong European influences. In fact, Bani has decimas just like Santiago, and ontop of that it ha Chuines which are Canarian descendant work songs, something absent in Santiago. And if you wana go by phenotypes white Banilejos look alot purer in an eyeball test then any self claimed white in Santiago. They are also less indegenous in Bani, while Santiago has more indegenous influence. The Lack of Palo in some campos in Santiago is not due to lack of Africans but rather a different subset of Africans, the African component in these pred. European towns of Santiago is from teh first Africans to arrive on the island, the Mande, the Wolof and other Senengambian's. The Tambora from Merengue is CLEARLY a Mande/Bara instrument. For Fun, here is a poster boy for a book on the Cibao, which i recomend for you to read, and anyone on this forum, to get an insight on the agrarian reforms and the ferrocarril, and other things Cibaenyo. http://www.amazon.com/Los-Campesinos-del-Cibao-Transformacion/dp/0847702308
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#32 - Posted 4 November 2011, 5:36 PM
Lemba Location: Dominican Republic Join date: September 2008 Member #: 1388 Posts: 74	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: JEM237 previously said: I think you misundertood what was being said by mirabal and guillermone. I do not see where they said that we speak Castilian - they clearly stated that Dominican Spanish stems from Andalusian Spanish. I actually saw a special on TVE (Television Española) a while back where there was a study conducted regarding the Spanish spoken in DR, PR, Cuba and Venezuela and it concluded with all of these forms of Spanish originated from Andalusian and/or Canary Island Spanish but most Andalusian. Even Andalusian Spaniards that live in the Caribbean have said that Cubans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans are the 'Andalusians of America'. You keep saying that you don't have a Pan-African agenda but it seems that every time anyone here makes a statement where our European or Taino heritage is highlighted there is always some Pan-African or Afro-Nazi that comes and tries to Africanize it. Why can't you accept that there are in fact many things in Dominican culture that are NOT of African origin? Why the insistence on shoving African culture down our throats? No one here denies our very obvious African cultural and racial components but that doesn't mean we have to wear it on our sleeve 24/7. Whether you like it or not, Dominican culture is an Iberoamerican culture with African and Taino influences and NOT the other way around. Get over it already. Yes there was a statement, that our Spanish is just Andalucian/Canarian spanish. And thats one of the things i am debating. But what irked me the most was AnthonyC's post about our Spanish being "corrected". I am proud of my form of Spanish, and don't wish to correct it or make it more castillian, that is ignorant. I never said that our Spanish didn't have Andalusian/Canarian influences, but its clear that its not a Carbon copy, you cannot talk about Dominican spanish without the myriad of Taino and African words in our language. Go to the canary islands, and call a father a Taita, dile ke ei e Chembu y ke te prete unas hoja de Guasi, a ver si te entiende. Our Spanish has Canarian influences, and Andalusian yes! That is part of the base, but it has been modified further by African and Taino vocabulary and grammar. Like how we say Como tu ta, vs Como ta tu (the proper form). I never ever ever, have combated Taino heritage in Anything on this forum. In fact i am good friends with one of the most potent indigenist Dominicans in the u.s baracutey. And me and him dsicuss these topics openly all the time, he can tell you that ive never tried teo downplay indegenous influence, but i am about well grounded facts, and research instead of emotion, as is he, Baracutey is a very well researched individual. I can accept that there are things in Dominican Culture that are not of African origin, and i HAVE never debated this. Do not get mad if i bring in new things into light that you thought twhere non-African at first. Instead debate me with experiences, facts, books, literature, i love all that stuff. For example, our Decima's came from Spain, one of my grandfather's brothers has a book he wrote full of Decima's which i am working on digitizing. Am i going to tell you its African? No... Is it authetnically Spanish, most of it yes, but there are some parts of its structure that are defiently criollo. There is a documentary on Decima's in D.R on youtube that i will link later. There are many things of European origin in the D.R, a very large amount, depending where you look. That we are a pred. Ibero-american culure with African and Taino influences, that really depends how you measure Predominant, and which parts of the cultlure you are surveying. Musically? No, Speech wise, yes its pred. European, Dances, are a mix of Both but falling on the African side, Food? Our food is a bout half spanish, and the other half is divided between Taino and African. It all depends on how you measure it. Religion? Our religion is mostly European, but the African and Indegenous influence is very high, id say 60% Euro, 40% Afro-indegenous. There are many more categories, such as behavior, money saving systems, agrarian systems, etc you need to take into account. You can easily measure Jamaica and say that its predominatenly English. Jamaican religion is like 80% english (euro), their food is a 3 way cross between English, East Indian and African, almost evenly. Their language is a 50/50 between African languages and english. etc etc, so many things. So is Jamaica a anglo-saxon culture with African, East indian and Indegenous influences? It all depends on how you measure it. Please be detailed about your measurements if you want to debate that.
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#34 - Posted 4 November 2011, 11:04 PM
xwill7 Location: United States, El cuarto bate Join date: March 2009 Member #: 2300 Posts: 10627	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: Lemba previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: I keep telling Lemba the same thing, that the Cibaeno culture is predominately made up of people who are rustic/rural, with a Mediterranean swarthy-complexion, strong Spanish/European culture yet still present Taino influences. He seems to want for some reason to over emphasize what ever African elements present in the region and minimize the european, when in fact the cibao is the only one single place where African characteristics is not accentuated as much as in other regions of the DR. This is where you are very wrong, on the racial components of the Cibao. It is very clear that the Cibao is tri-racial culturally, and there is no real Spanish dominance, our decima culture is very much dead. And our forms of Decima have deviated greatly from Spain. This is not to say there is obvious European influence in the cibao, for example Bachata is very European in its singing form as it is mostly sang in coplas. ALthough its drumming is obviously African, and its dancing as well. Our Perico ripiao and Palos is obviously very African influenced, i am speaking frmo the point of view of someone who plays music, is a musician, i can give you all the terms and all the details and nitty gritty upon request of why these genres are pred. African. Boleros however are very much spanish, but did not become common till the mexicans introduced them in the 1940s. As far as looks, that is also very wrong. I think you are speaking for like Sajoma, And Sajoma only. Ive been to many parts of the cibao, grew up in san francisco de macoris, pimentel, caobete, and much of the duarte province, and there are PLENTY of people who don't fit that description. Places like s.f.m have both the phenotype you mentioned and the dark afro-inidegenous types, the dark west african looking type, and the str8 indegenous looking types. In places such as Pimentel, Caobete, Villa Riva, the predominant look of the population is Afro-indegenous and Griffe (pred. afro). Same can be said for most of Cotui, and a good chunk of Nagua. That is not to say that these mediterrenean looking types exist, they DO exist, but they are NOT the posterboys for Cibao looks. This stereotype ive only seen on the internet, and in person only from people who are not cibaenyos and have met 3 santiagueros, think eveyone in the cibao looks like that. You just need to go on a bus from the Capital to Cotui and see the phenotypes on those buses, the voladora buses. That stereotype clearly doesn't fit. I don't fit that steroetype, nor my father or my mother, not anyone in this or the last generation. But perhaps there are 2 of my great grandparents that do fit this stereotype, does that make them the only 2 cibaenyo looking ppl in my family? No, thats pretty stupid. As far as me over-emphazising African characteristics, not true. I am simply stating the truth, the facts about our music and culture in the cibao, and in this case the speech, giving examples of my own family. And you guys KEEP ignoring the Indegenous element that i keep bringing up OVER and OVER, and so i am not indigenizing the cibao, but i am Africanizing it? There is not one post i have made where i dont include both. It is clear that you and some other people on this forum have an Agenda. I can see that there have been Afrocentric posters in the past hat have made you this jittery of hearing African contributions to the cibao/D.R. But keep in mind that i am not some Afrocentric troll, i don't argue for argue's sake, this is a academic debate, this is not about emotions or feelings. Everything i am telling you i can backup. Ive seen it twice already where i post about indegenous/afro contributions and the afro gets singled out. IT is not true that the Cibao is less African culturally then the rest of the island. In fact there are places in the island which are MORE European, it all depends on the sub-region or town,city. It is true that Central Santiago and parts of La Vega have less African influence then say Salcedo, San Francisco de Macoris, Cotui, Dajabon, Samana, Puertoplata, Mao. But is Santiago and a corner of La Vega the whole cibao? No. So if your saying that Central-Santiago is less African culturally, perhaps that is debataable, the whole cibao not at all. For comparisons sake lets compare Central Santiago with Bani. While Bani has strong African influence such as Sarandunga, it also has very strong European influences. In fact, Bani has decimas just like Santiago, and ontop of that it ha Chuines which are Canarian descendant work songs, something absent in Santiago. And if you wana go by phenotypes white Banilejos look alot purer in an eyeball test then any self claimed white in Santiago. They are also less indegenous in Bani, while Santiago has more indegenous influence. The Lack of Palo in some campos in Santiago is not due to lack of Africans but rather a different subset of Africans, the African component in these pred. European towns of Santiago is from teh first Africans to arrive on the island, the Mande, the Wolof and other Senengambian's. The Tambora from Merengue is CLEARLY a Mande/Bara instrument. For Fun, here is a poster boy for a book on the Cibao, which i recomend for you to read, and anyone on this forum, to get an insight on the agrarian reforms and the ferrocarril, and other things Cibaenyo. http://www.amazon.com/Los-Campesinos-del-Cibao-Transformacion/dp/0847702308 I have not seen many cibaenos like the one in that pic. In fact I think that he must be from across the border. Also, It is not just in Sajoma where you can find real cibaenos. I can name the towns if you need me to. Edited on 11/4/2011 11:05 PM by xwill7.
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#36 - Posted 5 November 2011, 1:32 PM
Lautaro Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 6156	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: Edwin514 previously said: I'm just curious but X what is a "real cibaeño"? and why do you think he must be from a cross the border? Because a griffe kid like that isn't what comes to mind when one speaks about the Cibao. I, and the common average layman out there, would place that kid in La Descubierta or the Batey districts of San Pedro de Macoris et. al. easier than they would the Cibao. And no, Lemba, it isn't only Sajoma the district that respond to the characteristics listed by guillermone above. Valverde (from whence my paternal family comes from) and Santiago Rodriguez have a substantial part of their population having mostly Euro-Indigenous physical characteristics, and if you won't take my word for it, just ask TorodeiCibao (EiCibaeño on the other forum), who was over there recently. Edited on 11/5/2011 8:02 PM by Lautaro. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince
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#37 - Posted 5 November 2011, 3:46 PM
Perez Location: Dominican Republic Join date: March 2008 Member #: 443 Posts: 1607	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: xwill7 previously said: Quote: Lemba previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: I keep telling Lemba the same thing, that the Cibaeno culture is predominately made up of people who are rustic/rural, with a Mediterranean swarthy-complexion, strong Spanish/European culture yet still present Taino influences. He seems to want for some reason to over emphasize what ever African elements present in the region and minimize the european, when in fact the cibao is the only one single place where African characteristics is not accentuated as much as in other regions of the DR. This is where you are very wrong, on the racial components of the Cibao. It is very clear that the Cibao is tri-racial culturally, and there is no real Spanish dominance, our decima culture is very much dead. And our forms of Decima have deviated greatly from Spain. This is not to say there is obvious European influence in the cibao, for example Bachata is very European in its singing form as it is mostly sang in coplas. ALthough its drumming is obviously African, and its dancing as well. Our Perico ripiao and Palos is obviously very African influenced, i am speaking frmo the point of view of someone who plays music, is a musician, i can give you all the terms and all the details and nitty gritty upon request of why these genres are pred. African. Boleros however are very much spanish, but did not become common till the mexicans introduced them in the 1940s. As far as looks, that is also very wrong. I think you are speaking for like Sajoma, And Sajoma only. Ive been to many parts of the cibao, grew up in san francisco de macoris, pimentel, caobete, and much of the duarte province, and there are PLENTY of people who don't fit that description. Places like s.f.m have both the phenotype you mentioned and the dark afro-inidegenous types, the dark west african looking type, and the str8 indegenous looking types. In places such as Pimentel, Caobete, Villa Riva, the predominant look of the population is Afro-indegenous and Griffe (pred. afro). Same can be said for most of Cotui, and a good chunk of Nagua. That is not to say that these mediterrenean looking types exist, they DO exist, but they are NOT the posterboys for Cibao looks. This stereotype ive only seen on the internet, and in person only from people who are not cibaenyos and have met 3 santiagueros, think eveyone in the cibao looks like that. You just need to go on a bus from the Capital to Cotui and see the phenotypes on those buses, the voladora buses. That stereotype clearly doesn't fit. I don't fit that steroetype, nor my father or my mother, not anyone in this or the last generation. But perhaps there are 2 of my great grandparents that do fit this stereotype, does that make them the only 2 cibaenyo looking ppl in my family? No, thats pretty stupid. As far as me over-emphazising African characteristics, not true. I am simply stating the truth, the facts about our music and culture in the cibao, and in this case the speech, giving examples of my own family. And you guys KEEP ignoring the Indegenous element that i keep bringing up OVER and OVER, and so i am not indigenizing the cibao, but i am Africanizing it? There is not one post i have made where i dont include both. It is clear that you and some other people on this forum have an Agenda. I can see that there have been Afrocentric posters in the past hat have made you this jittery of hearing African contributions to the cibao/D.R. But keep in mind that i am not some Afrocentric troll, i don't argue for argue's sake, this is a academic debate, this is not about emotions or feelings. Everything i am telling you i can backup. Ive seen it twice already where i post about indegenous/afro contributions and the afro gets singled out. IT is not true that the Cibao is less African culturally then the rest of the island. In fact there are places in the island which are MORE European, it all depends on the sub-region or town,city. It is true that Central Santiago and parts of La Vega have less African influence then say Salcedo, San Francisco de Macoris, Cotui, Dajabon, Samana, Puertoplata, Mao. But is Santiago and a corner of La Vega the whole cibao? No. So if your saying that Central-Santiago is less African culturally, perhaps that is debataable, the whole cibao not at all. For comparisons sake lets compare Central Santiago with Bani. While Bani has strong African influence such as Sarandunga, it also has very strong European influences. In fact, Bani has decimas just like Santiago, and ontop of that it ha Chuines which are Canarian descendant work songs, something absent in Santiago. And if you wana go by phenotypes white Banilejos look alot purer in an eyeball test then any self claimed white in Santiago. They are also less indegenous in Bani, while Santiago has more indegenous influence. The Lack of Palo in some campos in Santiago is not due to lack of Africans but rather a different subset of Africans, the African component in these pred. European towns of Santiago is from teh first Africans to arrive on the island, the Mande, the Wolof and other Senengambian's. The Tambora from Merengue is CLEARLY a Mande/Bara instrument. For Fun, here is a poster boy for a book on the Cibao, which i recomend for you to read, and anyone on this forum, to get an insight on the agrarian reforms and the ferrocarril, and other things Cibaenyo. http://www.amazon.com/Los-Campesinos-del-Cibao-Transformacion/dp/0847702308 I have not seen many cibaenos like the one in that pic. In fact I think that he must be from across the border. Also, It is not just in Sajoma where you can find real cibaenos. I can name the towns if you need me to. Hey Xwill, name them towns pa yo cojer pa'lla! jejejeje!! Edited on 11/5/2011 3:47 PM by Perez.
	Post IP/Country: 74.73.248.21* / US

#33 - Posted 4 November 2011, 7:39 PM
Edwin514 Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2010 Member #: 6273 Posts: 81	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican I mean, I've never debated its origins. Of course, it has many Canarian and Andalusian influences, but what I was particularly pointing out was that our speech is sometimes considered the worst out of all countries of Latin America. Not that I somehow disagree with its origins. C'mon, we seriously can't say that our spanish is perfect because its actually very broken, especially in the campo's. If you take the average dominican on the street and have him speak spanish without any slang, chances are he/she will display a few grammatical errors in his speech when compared to, say, a Peruvian or a Guatemalan. That's where my main point lies when responding to this thread, in that if he/she wants to learn our spanish, they should learn proper castillian instead of just diving straight into our spanish. That way, they can note the differences and lessen any difficulty by already having the "standards" down.
	Post IP/Country: 72.88.234.8* / US

#38 - Posted 5 November 2011, 7:22 PM
BernardJeanPierre Location: United States, Earth Join date: January 2011 Member #: 6646 Posts: 1082	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican @Lemba - Again, your post are so solid and well backed up. Unfortunately some people have a "impulse" response whenever they see the words "Africa", "African" or "Black". There is nothing in your comments that seem like you are trying to "Africanize" anything. Its very unfortunate to see who such a good and interesting discussion with SO much potential is constantly being derailed because 1) people think Cibao is only Santiago and that anything outside of that has to be "approved by them". 2) and because anytime something is mentioned about African culture as it relates to the Dominican Republic there is this automatic rejection of it, regardless of how valid and how much value it has from a historicla and cultural point of view. As you said, it is simply facts and figures that can be found by anyone IF they wanted to examine them. Just keep writing the way you do, and people will expose themselves for what they really are. @Guillermone - See what I mean?? Yet again...coincidence?? @Who ever said - "Taino looking" uh....what?? There is no large vault of pictures of Taino people. We can only SPECULATE on how they looked based on written historical descriptions and based on how OTHER Native people look who share a similar background. Caribs, Taino, Africans and Europeans were already intermingling long before our time.
	Post IP/Country: 76.105.125.10* / US

#39 - Posted 5 November 2011, 9:16 PM
Edwin514 Location: Dominican Republic Join date: November 2010 Member #: 6273 Posts: 81	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: Lautaro previously said: Quote: Edwin514 previously said: I'm just curious but X what is a "real cibaeño"? and why do you think he must be from a cross the border? Because a griffe kid like that isn't what comes to mind when one speaks about the Cibao. I, and the common average layman out there, would place that kid in La Descubierta or the Batey districts of San Pedro de Macoris et. al. easier than they would the Cibao. And no, Lemba, it isn't only Sajoma the district that respond to the characteristics listed by guillermone above. Valverde (from whence my paternal family comes from) and Santiago Rodriguez have a substantial part of their population having mostly Euro-Indigenous physical characteristics, and if you won't take my word for it, just ask TorodeiCibao (EiCibaeño on the other forum), who was over there recently. No offense, but looks can be deceiving. The reason why it puzzled me when X mentioned "real cibaeño" was because dominicans, like any other group of peoples, come in all colors and looks. In other words, there is no "real cibaeno" based solely on looks; its based more on culture. Besides, let's keep in mind that terms like cibaeno, liniero, etc. are cultural terms based on regional location, traditions, musics, and customs, and not something as unreliable as appearance or whatever. Edited on 11/5/2011 9:18 PM by Edwin514.
	Post IP/Country: 72.88.234.8* / US

#40 - Posted 5 November 2011, 9:39 PM
Lautaro Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 6156	RE: The difference between learning Spanish and Dominican Quote: Edwin514 previously said: No offense, but looks can be deceiving. The reason why it puzzled me when X mentioned "real cibaeño" was because dominicans, like any other group of peoples, come in all colors and looks. In other words, there is no "real cibaeno" based solely on looks; its based more on culture. Besides, let's keep in mind that terms like cibaeno, liniero, etc. are cultural terms based on regional location, traditions, musics, and customs, and not something as unreliable as appearance or whatever. I'm not disagreeing with you on the coming in all colors part, but I'm talking about what is the average on the regions (as in, what one is more likely to see when taking a random walk or drive through), and let's face it, the average Cibaeño is lighter complexioned than the average Southerner or Easterner. Although it's a given that things will start changing from now on that the country is more interconnected with all these new highways, which is always a plus, specially concerning the part of having the other parts of the country enjoy the economic bonanza that have been almost the exclusive monopoly of the Cibao region up to the present decade. Unlike some people here, I'm always up for expanding the progress far and wide, specially to those depressed areas of the South which have been left abandoned by the state for so long. Edited on 11/5/2011 10:02 PM by Lautaro. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince
	Post IP/Country: 190.166.130.17* / DO

May 25, 2013, Updated 6:38 AM
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