| #31 - Posted 9 February 2012, 2:24 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: March 2008 Member #: 522 Posts: 5804 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: ArturoFeliz previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: This research is similar to studies done with mice in a laboratory. You get give you positive preliminary results, but when you apply it to real life the results are actually the opposite. How many drugs have been carefully studies in controlled environments but when launched on the market after a few years the product had to be pull out. This has happened many times over. The same applies here my friend. I did research on my own while I was in college on precisely the same subject matter and I stand behind my results. Just as abstinence ONLY does not work, sex education alone is not effective as well. There must be a combination of both disciplines in order for it to effectively work and get the results that you want and expect. Anything less then that is a moot point. So you are admitting that sex education works. Maybe is that the research you conducted wasn't long enough or was fine tuned. I do agree proper sex education works not all types sex education will get the same results which is obvious about anything done scientifically. abstinence ONLY have proven over many research to make no difference, in fact many studies show the total opposite. There are cases when drugs get pulled off shelves but the vast majority stays. When can't stop making progress just because 1% of the research didn't accomplish the wanted result on a product. In all scientific research everything goes to a process of trial and error and fine tuned over time until the results are positive. Never said "education" did not work, what I did say however was that by itself it is not enough and will not suffice as effective tool against epidemic teen pregnancies and STD unless it is combine with character building and both a human and moral value structure. I have for years seen and heard the same sales pitch as to how sex education was so great and over sold as omnipotent, capable to cover a multitude of frailities. What is the point of being highly informed if we lack humanity. For example there are many people who are well educated but are lacking in many respects. However, it's not the knowledge that makes the difference, it's the application of that knowledge. And this is precisely the problem, youth do nothing with what they have learned. That is why other variable must come into play in order to achieve the results that we must have and expect. It is important to clarify that the Catholic Church in DR has not opposed Sexual Education. What it has demanded is that the curriculum is designed responsibly and sensibly. What some have called "Sexual Education" and advocated for in the DR is basically a sex class that ends up with handing out condoms. We have said that is irresponsibly and plain stupid. I can tell you, from my own personal experience that "sexual education" in school is something very far from it. How will we provide sexual education when we don't even have specialized teachers? You'd have to hear the accounts to believe (if you can believe it) what sexual education in public schools is. That is what we have opposed. I understand your point and I agree, the problem with the Catholic church is unfortunately because of its hierarchical organizational structure, they have been slow to correct the many errors of the past and thus have lost much credibility. So when they try to make amends and although well intended as it maybe, everyone quickly runs to make a judgement call against the church without actually understanding and seeing the whole picture. They focus exclusively on the mistakes done in the past without looking to what is actually happening in the present. Edited on 2/9/2012 2:26 PM by guillermone. |
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| #32 - Posted 9 February 2012, 2:39 PM | |
Location: United States, In your mind Join date: July 2008 Member #: 1042 Posts: 775 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: This research is similar to studies done with mice in a laboratory. You get give you positive preliminary results, but when you apply it to real life the results are actually the opposite. How many drugs have been carefully studies in controlled environments but when launched on the market after a few years the product had to be pull out. This has happened many times over. The same applies here my friend. I did research on my own while I was in college on precisely the same subject matter and I stand behind my results. Just as abstinence ONLY does not work, sex education alone is not effective as well. There must be a combination of both disciplines in order for it to effectively work and get the results that you want and expect. Anything less then that is a moot point. So you are admitting that sex education works. Maybe is that the research you conducted wasn't long enough or was fine tuned. I do agree proper sex education works not all types sex education will get the same results which is obvious about anything done scientifically. abstinence ONLY have proven over many research to make no difference, in fact many studies show the total opposite. There are cases when drugs get pulled off shelves but the vast majority stays. When can't stop making progress just because 1% of the research didn't accomplish the wanted result on a product. In all scientific research everything goes to a process of trial and error and fine tuned over time until the results are positive. Never said "education" did not work, what I did say however was that by itself it is not enough and will not suffice as effective tool against epidemic teen pregnancies and STD unless it is combine with character building and both a human and moral value structure. I have for years seen and heard the same sales pitch as to how sex education was so great, over sold as omnipotent, capable to cover and able to correct a multitude of frailities. What is the point of being highly informed if we lack humanity. For example there are many people who are well educated but are lacking in many respects. However, it's not the knowledge that makes the difference, it's the application of that knowledge. And this is precisely the problem, youth do little to nothing with what they learned and why other variable must come into play in order to achieve the results that we must have and expect. Guillermone, hats off to you for this post. I'm glad that you pointed out that it's not only education learned via books and science that is sufficient, I strongly agree that the morals and behaviors that you are taught at home are what really set you apart from the rest. I personally credit my strict, old-school Dominican (Catholic-based) upbringing as instrumental in me not ending up as a pregnant teen, promiscuous young woman, bi-curious, drug abuser and all other sorts of "vagamunderia" that folks of my generation often fall prey to. I am glad that I can also say the same for my other Dominican friends that were raised like me and are doing well for themselves today. "Those who do not hate their own selfishness and regard themselves as more important than the rest of the world are blind because the truth lies elsewhere" - Blaise Pascal |
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| #33 - Posted 9 February 2012, 3:58 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: March 2008 Member #: 522 Posts: 5804 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: JEM237 previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: This research is similar to studies done with mice in a laboratory. You get give you positive preliminary results, but when you apply it to real life the results are actually the opposite. How many drugs have been carefully studies in controlled environments but when launched on the market after a few years the product had to be pull out. This has happened many times over. The same applies here my friend. I did research on my own while I was in college on precisely the same subject matter and I stand behind my results. Just as abstinence ONLY does not work, sex education alone is not effective as well. There must be a combination of both disciplines in order for it to effectively work and get the results that you want and expect. Anything less then that is a moot point. So you are admitting that sex education works. Maybe is that the research you conducted wasn't long enough or was fine tuned. I do agree proper sex education works not all types sex education will get the same results which is obvious about anything done scientifically. abstinence ONLY have proven over many research to make no difference, in fact many studies show the total opposite. There are cases when drugs get pulled off shelves but the vast majority stays. When can't stop making progress just because 1% of the research didn't accomplish the wanted result on a product. In all scientific research everything goes to a process of trial and error and fine tuned over time until the results are positive. Never said "education" did not work, what I did say however was that by itself it is not enough and will not suffice as effective tool against epidemic teen pregnancies and STD unless it is combine with character building and both a human and moral value structure. I have for years seen and heard the same sales pitch as to how sex education was so great, over sold as omnipotent, capable to cover and able to correct a multitude of frailities. What is the point of being highly informed if we lack humanity. For example there are many people who are well educated but are lacking in many respects. However, it's not the knowledge that makes the difference, it's the application of that knowledge. And this is precisely the problem, youth do little to nothing with what they learned and why other variable must come into play in order to achieve the results that we must have and expect. Guillermone, hats off to you for this post. I'm glad that you pointed out that it's not only education learned via books and science that is sufficient, I strongly agree that the morals and behaviors that you are taught at home are what really set you apart from the rest. I personally credit my strict, old-school Dominican (Catholic-based) upbringing as instrumental in me not ending up as a pregnant teen, promiscuous young woman, bi-curious, drug abuser and all other sorts of "vagamunderia" that folks of my generation often fall prey to. I am glad that I can also say the same for my other Dominican friends that were raised like me and are doing well for themselves today. Thanks Jem, it is refreshing to know I am not alone in my beliefs. I am extremely worried and concerned to see how the whole of society just does not care anymore. I have heard all kinds of justifications which claim that it is alright to experiment with any kind of deviant sexual behavior possible as long as you get it out of the system and comfortable doing it, but most importantly that something is "learned" or "gained" from the experience. Even professionals suggest sexual experimentation to have some sort of a therapeutic health benefit. The argument made is that if one holds back on your own sexuality, it will only bring forth further problems, create sexual repression and increase frustrations. I understand that we are sexual beings and free to express ourselves as we choose, however there are and must be a limit to how far we go. If we give free rein to our sexual impulses then where do we stop or what are the parameters? We can’t just simply let it run wild, it needs be corralled and tamed. To do otherwise and if it we let it out loose, it will be a matter of time before people begin to openly mate in public places. We are supposed to be civilized human beings, not animals and if don't do something to teach youth the true significance of the sexual act there can be consequences, a situation where there is a total lack of control. No doubt, I am sure society will develop into a sort of sexual anarchy, where we will not be surprised to see people naturally hump on each other like dogs on the street as soon as one is attracted to the first person of the opposite sex standing at the bus stop. Yes, do not be surprised, this is not too far from reality and can be possible indeed, and I am sure there will be arguments made to justify it as acceptable, so as long as it is done by two consensual adults that use "condom sense." Edited on 2/9/2012 11:39 PM by guillermone. |
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| #34 - Posted 9 February 2012, 4:23 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: February 2012 Member #: 10121 Posts: 279 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: ArturoFeliz previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: This research is similar to studies done with mice in a laboratory. You get give you positive preliminary results, but when you apply it to real life the results are actually the opposite. How many drugs have been carefully studies in controlled environments but when launched on the market after a few years the product had to be pull out. This has happened many times over. The same applies here my friend. I did research on my own while I was in college on precisely the same subject matter and I stand behind my results. Just as abstinence ONLY does not work, sex education alone is not effective as well. There must be a combination of both disciplines in order for it to effectively work and get the results that you want and expect. Anything less then that is a moot point. So you are admitting that sex education works. Maybe is that the research you conducted wasn't long enough or was fine tuned. I do agree proper sex education works not all types sex education will get the same results which is obvious about anything done scientifically. abstinence ONLY have proven over many research to make no difference, in fact many studies show the total opposite. There are cases when drugs get pulled off shelves but the vast majority stays. When can't stop making progress just because 1% of the research didn't accomplish the wanted result on a product. In all scientific research everything goes to a process of trial and error and fine tuned over time until the results are positive. Never said "education" did not work, what I did say however was that by itself it is not enough and will not suffice as effective tool against epidemic teen pregnancies and STD unless it is combine with character building and both a human and moral value structure. I have for years seen and heard the same sales pitch as to how sex education was so great and over sold as omnipotent, capable to cover a multitude of frailities. What is the point of being highly informed if we lack humanity. For example there are many people who are well educated but are lacking in many respects. However, it's not the knowledge that makes the difference, it's the application of that knowledge. And this is precisely the problem, youth do nothing with what they have learned. That is why other variable must come into play in order to achieve the results that we must have and expect. It is important to clarify that the Catholic Church in DR has not opposed Sexual Education. What it has demanded is that the curriculum is designed responsibly and sensibly. What some have called "Sexual Education" and advocated for in the DR is basically a sex class that ends up with handing out condoms. We have said that is irresponsibly and plain stupid. I can tell you, from my own personal experience that "sexual education" in school is something very far from it. How will we provide sexual education when we don't even have specialized teachers? You'd have to hear the accounts to believe (if you can believe it) what sexual education in public schools is. That is what we have opposed. I understand your point and I agree, the problem with the Catholic church is unfortunately because of its hierarchical organizational structure, they have been slow to correct the many errors of the past and thus have lost much credibility. So when they try to make amends and although well intended as it maybe, everyone quickly runs to make a judgement call against the church without actually understanding and seeing the whole picture. They focus exclusively on the mistakes done in the past without looking to what is actually happening in the present. Yes. It is undeniable that some things have not been corrected quickly and swiftly enough. As a Catholic many mistakes made by fellow Catholics laymen, Priests and Authorities have ashamed me. What I keep in mind is that I have my own mind and that the institution is beyond the men that lead it. That said. The work being done everyday by the Church in the communities is unequaled by any other institution in the DR. Organizing and helping farmers, communities, in Schools, in Hospitals, in jails, with social work without publicity, but just for the sake of doing the what is right. Thanks again! |
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| #35 - Posted 9 February 2012, 6:38 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo Join date: April 2008 Member #: 594 Posts: 5142 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic a comment without any substance ,,,you may care to look at the much smaller episcopalian church who on a per capita basis does much more and with much less controversy and much less destructive dogma |
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| #36 - Posted 9 February 2012, 8:55 PM | |
Location: United States, Seattle, W.A. Join date: April 2009 Member #: 2555 Posts: 3423 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: JEM237 previously said: Belly, while I don't disagree with the fact that Catholic schools accept a portion of their funds from the state, I still don't see how the reply you quoted from Arturo answers the question he asked you of providing examples of Catholic schools that you know receive all of their money from the state. You should provide specific examples if you're going to assert something. Well Jem As usual you decide to jump in and agree with anybody who is not in agreement with me. Well let me clear this for you. Here are some articles for the 1954 concordat between the catholic church and the dictator Leonidas Trujillo which still valid up to this day: Quote: ARTICLE VII The Dominican Government undertakes to build the Cathedral, Church of the Prelature, the residences of the Bishops or Prelate Nullius, and the offices of the Curia as may be required in current existing Dioceses and Prelature, as well as in Dioceses established in the future. 2. Furthermore, the Government shall provide a monthly subsidy for administrative costs and for poor churches to the Archdiocese of Santo Domingo, and to each Diocese or Prelature Nullius such as currently exist or that may be established in the future. As you can see Yes the state provides funding directly and indirectly through tax evasion methods for building churches, office building for the church, and residences Here is more: Quote: ARTICLE XX 1. The Church shall be free to establish Seminaries or any other type of ecclesiastical training institution; these shall not be subject to the supervision of the State. As you can see yes the state does provide funding. The better question to ask is which catholic FOR PROFIT institution is not using this method of tax evasion? That's the real question here. I doubt there is any "catholic school" not using this method of evading taxes "People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs" |
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| #37 - Posted 9 February 2012, 9:06 PM | |
Location: United States, Seattle, W.A. Join date: April 2009 Member #: 2555 Posts: 3423 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: ArturoFeliz previously said: Unlike others in this forum you seem to be very unaware of the Dominican reality. No, it is not trolling to disagree with me but to try to disqualify me on personal terms. That is the "fallacy argumentum ad hominem" You say that because I'm Catholic my opinion is biased, uninformed and wrong. That is not only disrespectful to me but to the rules of logic debate. I'm still waiting for examples if you can provide any. I don't expect you can. You really sound like someone who hasn't been to the DR for years. Not sure if that's the case, but you definitely sound like that. Well Arturo once again you are showing your arrogance and you complex of superiority. You have come to make your self believe you are some sort of an expert. Let me clear your head from confusions. Just because you have a web site build by somebody else NOT yourself(wordpress) and you have thrown in a $20.00 theme over fill with food recipes NOT originally yours, you seem to think you are some sort of celebrity of the web. Until you arrogant way of talking to me changes then I can consider this conversation done. Your ignorance in many subjects other than cooking a chicken is very evident. Once you grow up and start acting like an adult then we can keep going else I'm a busy person who is not willing to play your childish games in this forum. Edited on 2/9/2012 9:08 PM by Belly. "People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs" |
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| #38 - Posted 9 February 2012, 10:13 PM | |
Location: United States, Seattle, W.A. Join date: April 2009 Member #: 2555 Posts: 3423 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: This research is similar to studies done with mice in a laboratory. You get give you positive preliminary results, but when you apply it to real life the results are actually the opposite. How many drugs have been carefully studies in controlled environments but when launched on the market after a few years the product had to be pull out. This has happened many times over. The same applies here my friend. I did research on my own while I was in college on precisely the same subject matter and I stand behind my results. Just as abstinence ONLY does not work, sex education alone is not effective as well. There must be a combination of both disciplines in order for it to effectively work and get the results that you want and expect. Anything less then that is a moot point. So you are admitting that sex education works. Maybe is that the research you conducted wasn't long enough or was fine tuned. I do agree proper sex education works not all types sex education will get the same results which is obvious about anything done scientifically. abstinence ONLY have proven over many research to make no difference, in fact many studies show the total opposite. There are cases when drugs get pulled off shelves but the vast majority stays. When can't stop making progress just because 1% of the research didn't accomplish the wanted result on a product. In all scientific research everything goes to a process of trial and error and fine tuned over time until the results are positive. Never said "education" did not work, what I did say however was that by itself it is not enough and will not suffice as effective tool against epidemic teen pregnancies and STD unless it is combine with character building and both a human and moral value structure. I have for years seen and heard the same sales pitch as to how sex education was so great, over sold as omnipotent, capable to cover and able to correct a multitude of frailities. What is the point of being highly informed if we lack humanity. For example there are many people who are well educated but are lacking in many respects. However, it's not the knowledge that makes the difference, it's the application of that knowledge. And this is precisely the problem, youth do little to nothing with what they learned and why other variable must come into play in order to achieve the results that we must have and expect. guilermone We both agree that education works and we both agree that not all kind of education works. Of course not' . For every social problem there is always different some are very effective and some not. Teaching morals to kids without superstitions is not an easy task since we human are not simple species. Unlike "animals" we receive the world in many different ways i.e language, culture and more. How would you teach the subject of sex education in a secular way? Taking into consideration people may come from many religion or no religion at all. All religious and non-religious have the same capacity of being moral people. Edited on 2/9/2012 10:16 PM by Belly. "People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs" |
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| #39 - Posted 9 February 2012, 11:05 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: February 2012 Member #: 10121 Posts: 279 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: ArturoFeliz previously said: Unlike others in this forum you seem to be very unaware of the Dominican reality. No, it is not trolling to disagree with me but to try to disqualify me on personal terms. That is the "fallacy argumentum ad hominem" You say that because I'm Catholic my opinion is biased, uninformed and wrong. That is not only disrespectful to me but to the rules of logic debate. I'm still waiting for examples if you can provide any. I don't expect you can. You really sound like someone who hasn't been to the DR for years. Not sure if that's the case, but you definitely sound like that. Well Arturo once again you are showing your arrogance and you complex of superiority. You have come to make your self believe you are some sort of an expert. Let me clear your head from confusions. Just because you have a web site build by somebody else NOT yourself(wordpress) and you have thrown in a $20.00 theme over fill with food recipes NOT originally yours, you seem to think you are some sort of celebrity of the web. Until you arrogant way of talking to me changes then I can consider this conversation done. Your ignorance in many subjects other than cooking a chicken is very evident. Once you grow up and start acting like an adult then we can keep going else I'm a busy person who is not willing to play your childish games in this forum. Nice. So you visited my food blog? Hope you liked it! Please don't tell your mama I was bullying you! |
Post IP: 186.6.19.20* | |
| #40 - Posted 9 February 2012, 11:59 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: March 2008 Member #: 522 Posts: 5804 | RE: The Catholic Church in the history of the Dominican Republic Quote: ArturoFeliz previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: ArturoFeliz previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: Quote: Belly previously said: Quote: guillermone previously said: This research is similar to studies done with mice in a laboratory. You get give you positive preliminary results, but when you apply it to real life the results are actually the opposite. How many drugs have been carefully studies in controlled environments but when launched on the market after a few years the product had to be pull out. This has happened many times over. The same applies here my friend. I did research on my own while I was in college on precisely the same subject matter and I stand behind my results. Just as abstinence ONLY does not work, sex education alone is not effective as well. There must be a combination of both disciplines in order for it to effectively work and get the results that you want and expect. Anything less then that is a moot point. So you are admitting that sex education works. Maybe is that the research you conducted wasn't long enough or was fine tuned. I do agree proper sex education works not all types sex education will get the same results which is obvious about anything done scientifically. abstinence ONLY have proven over many research to make no difference, in fact many studies show the total opposite. There are cases when drugs get pulled off shelves but the vast majority stays. When can't stop making progress just because 1% of the research didn't accomplish the wanted result on a product. In all scientific research everything goes to a process of trial and error and fine tuned over time until the results are positive. Never said "education" did not work, what I did say however was that by itself it is not enough and will not suffice as effective tool against epidemic teen pregnancies and STD unless it is combine with character building and both a human and moral value structure. I have for years seen and heard the same sales pitch as to how sex education was so great and over sold as omnipotent, capable to cover a multitude of frailities. What is the point of being highly informed if we lack humanity. For example there are many people who are well educated but are lacking in many respects. However, it's not the knowledge that makes the difference, it's the application of that knowledge. And this is precisely the problem, youth do nothing with what they have learned. That is why other variable must come into play in order to achieve the results that we must have and expect. It is important to clarify that the Catholic Church in DR has not opposed Sexual Education. What it has demanded is that the curriculum is designed responsibly and sensibly. What some have called "Sexual Education" and advocated for in the DR is basically a sex class that ends up with handing out condoms. We have said that is irresponsibly and plain stupid. I can tell you, from my own personal experience that "sexual education" in school is something very far from it. How will we provide sexual education when we don't even have specialized teachers? You'd have to hear the accounts to believe (if you can believe it) what sexual education in public schools is. That is what we have opposed. I understand your point and I agree, the problem with the Catholic church is unfortunately because of its hierarchical organizational structure, they have been slow to correct the many errors of the past and thus have lost much credibility. So when they try to make amends and although well intended as it maybe, everyone quickly runs to make a judgement call against the church without actually understanding and seeing the whole picture. They focus exclusively on the mistakes done in the past without looking to what is actually happening in the present. Yes. It is undeniable that some things have not been corrected quickly and swiftly enough. As a Catholic many mistakes made by fellow Catholics laymen, Priests and Authorities have ashamed me. What I keep in mind is that I have my own mind and that the institution is beyond the men that lead it. That said. The work being done everyday by the Church in the communities is unequaled by any other institution in the DR. Organizing and helping farmers, communities, in Schools, in Hospitals, in jails, with social work without publicity, but just for the sake of doing the what is right. Thanks again! I am aware of the the work done by the church as positive and beneficial to society. However, I take issue with the militant arm of the Vatican, the Jesuit order of priests and their obscurantist radicalism. |
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