| #1 - Posted 2 March 2012, 3:15 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santiago de los Caballeros Join date: November 2009 Member #: 4018 Posts: 723 | Cibao Libre http://cibaolibre.org/ This is a project the promotes independence or at least more regional Autonomy for the northern Region of DR (The Cibao). Quote: Cibao: La última colonia en Las Américas El Imperialismo Europeo que abarco los continentes de Las Américas, Áfricas, Asia, etc., fue repudiado por los pobladores de las naciones conquistadas. Por eso en la actualidad no predomina, sobre todo en Las Américas, estas colonias vergonzosas para la humanidad. La explotación del ser humano y el saqueo de los recursos naturales de los países colonizados resultaban únicamente para el bienestar de los ciudadanos de los países dominante. Las colonias se quedaban sin recursos lo cual lo emergía en una pobreza indigente y un estándar de vida inferior al resto del mundo. Lo único que recibía la colonia era la protección de la potencia dominante de las otras potencias lo cual garantizaba seguridad y paz al pueblo. Pero nunca para desarrollar y lograr el bienestar de pueblo. Esto comienza desde el inicio de la civilización tomando diferentes formas. Los Faraones, Emperadores, Reyes, Principados, etc., mantenían sus imperios a base de cobrar impuestos. Permitían el asentamiento de la familia dentro de sus fronteras garantizando seguridad pero con el costo de los impuestos. Las tierras eran de ellos y el pueblo no tenía derecho a nada. En muchas ocasiones el abusivo cobro de impuestos fue la razón de derrotas y derrumbes de muchos reinados. La historia tiene muchos ejemplos. Los Reyes lograban este poder absoluto y las personas pagaban sus impuestos porque Los Reyes se tenían como ‘hijos de Dios’, igualmente que el Presidente de la Republica Dominicana el pueblo dominicano lo considera como ‘hijo de Dios’ y se le permita hacer su voluntad sin ningún cuestionamiento. Pero este fenómenos de colonización no solo se ve entre naciones diferentes sino que dentro una misma nación una región puede caer en mismo estado de colonización. En España, Rusia, Yugoslavia, etc., encontramos que una región es víctima del poderío interno solo para el beneficio de la región preferida del gobernante. En Republica Dominicana tenemos similitudes de un beneficio asombroso a favor de una región en perjuicio de otra región. Si analizamos obras, inversiones, empleos, aporte fiscal, participación en el estado, etc., nos encontramos con las características típicas de la colonización. El gobierno central de la Republica Dominicana reside en Santo Domingo y sus compromisos en grandes partes se limitan geográficamente a ese entorno. La presencia del gobierno en el Cibao está bien limitada con una presencia precaria tanto en recursos humanos como en recurso económico. En donde no es así (lo cual no nos extraña) es en la Dirección de Impuesto Internos lo cual está bien nutrido de recursos humanos y tecnología avanzada para el eficiente cobro de Impuesto. Tampoco nos extraña que en los últimos 50 años la única edificación que ha construido el gobierno central en el Cibao es para Recaudar Impuestos, el Edificio gubernamental Antonio Guzmán Fernández mejor conocido como el ‘huacalito’. Esta misma son la característica más importante de los Imperios del pasado que la prioridad no era el bienestar del pueblo sino el ingreso monetario para mantener económicamente la gran maquinaria gubernamental. Muchos servidores del gobierno pueden justificar las muchas carreteras y los muchos puentes construidos en el Cibao por el gobierno central. Pero la verdad que no se hace para el beneficio del Cibao sino (al igual que el Imperio Romano que todas la carreteras están dirigidas hacia Roma) para facilitar las llegadas de los productos alimenticios y productos para poder mantener la gran metrópolis de Santo Domingo. Por lo tanto, las obras que no cumplen con este objetivo no tienen razón de ser. Por ejemplo, la carretera Santiago – Puerto Plata, Circunvalación de Santiago (lleva 16 años y sigue en etapa inicial), corredor Nagua – Monte Cristi por la costa, San José de la Mata – San Juan de la Managua, Santiago – Monte Cristi, etc., etc., etc. Estas obras no están dirigidas hacia la gran metrópolis Santo Domingo por lo tanto no tienen importancias. Pero al igual que el Imperio Romano la caída de Roma no se inicio desde lo interno sino de las regiones explotadas y oprimidas que atacaban sin cesar a Roma. La corrupción, prostitución, inmoralidad, perversión social, etc., fue la real causa de la caída del Imperio Romano. Con las fallas existentes en el gobierno, la corrupción galopante, la falta de justicia, etc., no será posible que el Cibao reciba justa proporción del gobierno. La única forma seria depurar las presentes instituciones y comenzar de nuevo. Entendemos que el Congreso de Republica Dominicana debe declarar el Cibao como un “El Estado Autónomo Del Cibao” para que todos sus ingresos y sus inversiones sean para el Cibao, y políticamente independiente. I translated part of what the site states, for those of you who don't speak Spanish, I was lazy, and used google translate, so some sentences might not make sense. Quote: But this phenomenon of colonization is not only between different nations but one region within a nation may fall in the same state of colonization. In Spain, Russia, Yugoslavia, etc.., We found that a region is a victim of domestic power only for the benefit of the preferred region of the ruler. In the Dominican Republic we have amazing similarities, of the preference for a region to the detriment of another region. Looking at works, investments, employment, fiscal support, participation in the state, etc.., We find the typical features of colonization. The central government of the Dominican Republic residing in Santo Domingo and its commitments in large parts are geographically limited to that part of country. The presence of the government in the Cibao is rather limited, with a rather weak, and precarious presence in the Cibao. Where this is not the case (which does not surprise us) is in the Bureau of Internal Revenue which is well-nourished human resources and advanced technology for efficient tax collection. No wonder that in the last 50 years the only building that has built the central government in the Cibao is to collect taxes, the Government building Antonio Guzmán Fernández best known as the 'huacalito'. These are the same characteristics, of the empires of the past. Many government officials can justify the many roads and many bridges built in the Cibao by the central government. But the truth is that there not done for the benefit of the Cibao but (like the Roman Empire all the roads are directed towards Rome) to facilitate the arrival of food and products to maintain the great metropolis of Santo Domingo. Therefore, the works that do not meet this goal have no reason to be. For example, the road Santiago - Puerto Plata, Santiago Beltway (it has taken 16 years and is still in its early stage), broker Nagua - Monte Cristi on the coast, San Jose de la Mata - San Juan de la Managua, Santiago - Monte Cristi, etc., etc., etc. These works are not directed towards the great metropolis Santo Domingo therefore have no importances. But like the Roman Empire, Rome's fall was not initiated from the inside but from the exploited and oppressed regions constantly attacking Rome. Corruption, prostitution, immorality, perversion social issues., Was the real cause of the fall of the Roman Empire. With the weaknesses in the government, rampant corruption, lack of justice, etc.., You can not get the Cibao a fair share of government protection. The only serious way to debug these institutions and start over. We understand that the Congress of the Dominican Republic should declare the Cibao as the "Autonomous state of the Cibao" so that all its income and investments stay in the Cibao, and politically independent. What are your thoughts on this? Economic contribution of the Cibao vs the rest of DR. ![]() Projects built in Cibao vs the rest of DR. ![]() Amount of people employed in public services, Cibao vs the rest of DR. ![]() Edited on 3/2/2012 3:15 PM by deicibao. QUE VIVA Ei CIBAO "yo soy primero cibaeño y despues dominicano" Pedro Manuel Hungria |
Post IP/Country: 192.203.40.25* / US | |
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| #2 - Posted 2 March 2012, 3:34 PM | |
Location: United States, New York City Join date: February 2008 Member #: 411 Posts: 6479 | RE: Cibao Libre Quote: deicibao previously said: http://cibaolibre.org/ This is a project the promotes independence or at least more regional Autonomy for the northern Region of DR (The Cibao). Quote: Cibao: La última colonia en Las Américas El Imperialismo Europeo que abarco los continentes de Las Américas, Áfricas, Asia, etc., fue repudiado por los pobladores de las naciones conquistadas. Por eso en la actualidad no predomina, sobre todo en Las Américas, estas colonias vergonzosas para la humanidad. La explotación del ser humano y el saqueo de los recursos naturales de los países colonizados resultaban únicamente para el bienestar de los ciudadanos de los países dominante. Las colonias se quedaban sin recursos lo cual lo emergía en una pobreza indigente y un estándar de vida inferior al resto del mundo. Lo único que recibía la colonia era la protección de la potencia dominante de las otras potencias lo cual garantizaba seguridad y paz al pueblo. Pero nunca para desarrollar y lograr el bienestar de pueblo. Esto comienza desde el inicio de la civilización tomando diferentes formas. Los Faraones, Emperadores, Reyes, Principados, etc., mantenían sus imperios a base de cobrar impuestos. Permitían el asentamiento de la familia dentro de sus fronteras garantizando seguridad pero con el costo de los impuestos. Las tierras eran de ellos y el pueblo no tenía derecho a nada. En muchas ocasiones el abusivo cobro de impuestos fue la razón de derrotas y derrumbes de muchos reinados. La historia tiene muchos ejemplos. Los Reyes lograban este poder absoluto y las personas pagaban sus impuestos porque Los Reyes se tenían como ‘hijos de Dios’, igualmente que el Presidente de la Republica Dominicana el pueblo dominicano lo considera como ‘hijo de Dios’ y se le permita hacer su voluntad sin ningún cuestionamiento. Pero este fenómenos de colonización no solo se ve entre naciones diferentes sino que dentro una misma nación una región puede caer en mismo estado de colonización. En España, Rusia, Yugoslavia, etc., encontramos que una región es víctima del poderío interno solo para el beneficio de la región preferida del gobernante. En Republica Dominicana tenemos similitudes de un beneficio asombroso a favor de una región en perjuicio de otra región. Si analizamos obras, inversiones, empleos, aporte fiscal, participación en el estado, etc., nos encontramos con las características típicas de la colonización. El gobierno central de la Republica Dominicana reside en Santo Domingo y sus compromisos en grandes partes se limitan geográficamente a ese entorno. La presencia del gobierno en el Cibao está bien limitada con una presencia precaria tanto en recursos humanos como en recurso económico. En donde no es así (lo cual no nos extraña) es en la Dirección de Impuesto Internos lo cual está bien nutrido de recursos humanos y tecnología avanzada para el eficiente cobro de Impuesto. Tampoco nos extraña que en los últimos 50 años la única edificación que ha construido el gobierno central en el Cibao es para Recaudar Impuestos, el Edificio gubernamental Antonio Guzmán Fernández mejor conocido como el ‘huacalito’. Esta misma son la característica más importante de los Imperios del pasado que la prioridad no era el bienestar del pueblo sino el ingreso monetario para mantener económicamente la gran maquinaria gubernamental. Muchos servidores del gobierno pueden justificar las muchas carreteras y los muchos puentes construidos en el Cibao por el gobierno central. Pero la verdad que no se hace para el beneficio del Cibao sino (al igual que el Imperio Romano que todas la carreteras están dirigidas hacia Roma) para facilitar las llegadas de los productos alimenticios y productos para poder mantener la gran metrópolis de Santo Domingo. Por lo tanto, las obras que no cumplen con este objetivo no tienen razón de ser. Por ejemplo, la carretera Santiago – Puerto Plata, Circunvalación de Santiago (lleva 16 años y sigue en etapa inicial), corredor Nagua – Monte Cristi por la costa, San José de la Mata – San Juan de la Managua, Santiago – Monte Cristi, etc., etc., etc. Estas obras no están dirigidas hacia la gran metrópolis Santo Domingo por lo tanto no tienen importancias. Pero al igual que el Imperio Romano la caída de Roma no se inicio desde lo interno sino de las regiones explotadas y oprimidas que atacaban sin cesar a Roma. La corrupción, prostitución, inmoralidad, perversión social, etc., fue la real causa de la caída del Imperio Romano. Con las fallas existentes en el gobierno, la corrupción galopante, la falta de justicia, etc., no será posible que el Cibao reciba justa proporción del gobierno. La única forma seria depurar las presentes instituciones y comenzar de nuevo. Entendemos que el Congreso de Republica Dominicana debe declarar el Cibao como un “El Estado Autónomo Del Cibao” para que todos sus ingresos y sus inversiones sean para el Cibao, y políticamente independiente. I translated part of what the site states, for those of you who don't speak Spanish, I was lazy, and used google translate, so some sentences might not make sense. Quote: But this phenomenon of colonization is not only between different nations but one region within a nation may fall in the same state of colonization. In Spain, Russia, Yugoslavia, etc.., We found that a region is a victim of domestic power only for the benefit of the preferred region of the ruler. In the Dominican Republic we have amazing similarities, of the preference for a region to the detriment of another region. Looking at works, investments, employment, fiscal support, participation in the state, etc.., We find the typical features of colonization. The central government of the Dominican Republic residing in Santo Domingo and its commitments in large parts are geographically limited to that part of country. The presence of the government in the Cibao is rather limited, with a rather weak, and precarious presence in the Cibao. Where this is not the case (which does not surprise us) is in the Bureau of Internal Revenue which is well-nourished human resources and advanced technology for efficient tax collection. No wonder that in the last 50 years the only building that has built the central government in the Cibao is to collect taxes, the Government building Antonio Guzmán Fernández best known as the 'huacalito'. These are the same characteristics, of the empires of the past. Many government officials can justify the many roads and many bridges built in the Cibao by the central government. But the truth is that there not done for the benefit of the Cibao but (like the Roman Empire all the roads are directed towards Rome) to facilitate the arrival of food and products to maintain the great metropolis of Santo Domingo. Therefore, the works that do not meet this goal have no reason to be. For example, the road Santiago - Puerto Plata, Santiago Beltway (it has taken 16 years and is still in its early stage), broker Nagua - Monte Cristi on the coast, San Jose de la Mata - San Juan de la Managua, Santiago - Monte Cristi, etc., etc., etc. These works are not directed towards the great metropolis Santo Domingo therefore have no importances. But like the Roman Empire, Rome's fall was not initiated from the inside but from the exploited and oppressed regions constantly attacking Rome. Corruption, prostitution, immorality, perversion social issues., Was the real cause of the fall of the Roman Empire. With the weaknesses in the government, rampant corruption, lack of justice, etc.., You can not get the Cibao a fair share of government protection. The only serious way to debug these institutions and start over. We understand that the Congress of the Dominican Republic should declare the Cibao as the "Autonomous state of the Cibao" so that all its income and investments stay in the Cibao, and politically independent. What are your thoughts on this? Economic contribution of the Cibao vs the rest of DR. ![]() Projects built in Cibao vs the rest of DR. ![]() Amount of people employed in public services, Cibao vs the rest of DR. ![]() Some of us have been mentioning the lopsided relationship between the capital and the interior for some time. Thanks for bringing this up again..I found the tables you provided to be very illuminating. "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" - Voltaire |
Post IP/Country: 161.185.158.2* / US | |
| #3 - Posted 3 March 2012, 2:48 AM | |
Location: United States, Brooklyn Join date: December 2007 Member #: 40 Posts: 3076 | RE: Cibao Libre Quote: vacanos previously said: Wow very interesting article. Before Trujillo there was a chance El Cibao given the difference with the other part of the country would have claimed their independence. Now I don’t see it especially that most of us view thing now with indifference. One irony about all this Leonel is the only president over the last 50 years that come from SD the rest is Cibaeños. As discussed in another thread it is best to move the capital near the border or the south. Just like Brazil did with their capital Brazilia. Or maybe we could treat traitors the way traitors are often treated WITH A BULLET! I won't delve much into this subject but i will say this, I see that this is a pipe dream and it's never going to happen. Keep dreaming guys, like Vacanos said, most presidents have been from el cibao and even they did nothing to help your silly cause. Now I urge all true intelligent people not to delve into this subject either as it is both idiotic and time consuming. If you have an interest in granting the cibao region more autonomy this can be done legally and without breaking the country apart, as many countries in the world have done so. |
Post IP/Country: 70.107.242.18* / US | |
| #4 - Posted 3 March 2012, 11:55 AM | |
Location: United States Join date: March 2009 Member #: 2408 Posts: 663 | RE: Cibao Libre Finally we are beginning to see an awakening within the Cibao Region. It has been long over due and the majority of the population from the Cibao are "down" with the cause. We are begining to see the first steps into what will eventually become a free cibao, Once again free from Haiti aka "Santo Domingo"............ Freedom will come either of two ways.... 1) non-violent -----Dont' bet on this one 2) Armed Revolution - More likely, but we all know some blood may have to be shed...... |
Post IP/Country: 167.211.65.8* / US | |
| #5 - Posted 3 March 2012, 1:17 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santiago de los Caballeros Join date: November 2009 Member #: 4018 Posts: 723 | RE: Cibao Libre Quote: vacanos previously said: Wow very interesting article. Before Trujillo there was a chance El Cibao given the difference with the other part of the country would have claimed their independence. Now I don’t see it especially that most of us view thing now with indifference. One irony about all this Leonel is the only president over the last 50 years that come from SD the rest is Cibaeños. As discussed in another thread it is best to move the capital near the border or the south. Just like Brazil did with their capital Brazilia. Although I agree that the best time for a separate Cibao, was during the "Revolocion Cibaeño" of 1858 were the revolucionarios, set up the most democratic constitution, and made Santiago the Capital, but Desiderio Valverde ceaded power to Pedro Satana, for the sake of the unity of the country, which in my opinion was one of the biggest mistakes in Cibaeño history. It was also possible at the beiggining of the 20th century, when caudillos like Desiderio Arias, basically controlled the Cibao, and it could have easily become a separate Nation. The recent Cibaeno presidents had no other choise then to continue what trujillo started, if they didn't they would've lost support from all the people who had invested in the growing capital. Nowadays, a separate Cibao seems to be unlikely, but you never know just take a look at the charts that I posted, the Cibao is a like a colony, and maybe someone will ignite something big, and liberate the cibao. BTW don't listing to Capitalenos, there obviously against this, because the Capital will loose more than half of all their tax income, they'll also loose the bread basket of the country. An independent Cibao has way more to gain, then to loose, yet the rest of the country has ALOT to loose if an independent cibao becomes a reality. QUE VIVA Ei CIBAO "yo soy primero cibaeño y despues dominicano" Pedro Manuel Hungria |
Post IP/Country: 69.127.51.10* / US | |
| #6 - Posted 3 March 2012, 2:52 PM | |
Location: United States, Brooklyn Join date: December 2007 Member #: 40 Posts: 3076 | RE: Cibao Libre Quote: mirabal4ever previously said: Quote: CarlosFranco previously said: Quote: vacanos previously said: Wow very interesting article. Before Trujillo there was a chance El Cibao given the difference with the other part of the country would have claimed their independence. Now I don’t see it especially that most of us view thing now with indifference. One irony about all this Leonel is the only president over the last 50 years that come from SD the rest is Cibaeños. As discussed in another thread it is best to move the capital near the border or the south. Just like Brazil did with their capital Brazilia. Or maybe we could treat traitors the way traitors are often treated WITH A BULLET! I won't delve much into this subject but i will say this, I see that this is a pipe dream and it's never going to happen. Keep dreaming guys, like Vacanos said, most presidents have been from el cibao and even they did nothing to help your silly cause. Now I urge all true intelligent people not to delve into this subject either as it is both idiotic and time consuming. If you have an interest in granting the cibao region more autonomy this can be done legally and without breaking the country apart, as many countries in the world have done so. I guess many of the Cibaenos feel that so much effort and time in building up the nation with large projects have been poured into La Capital. Our Cibao is like the sauce left out of the Salsa. Mirabal why don't you run for office and allocate resources fairly |
Post IP/Country: 68.174.21.22* / US | |
| #7 - Posted 3 March 2012, 2:54 PM | |
Location: United States, Brooklyn Join date: December 2007 Member #: 40 Posts: 3076 | RE: Cibao Libre Warning: if this pipe dream of yours becomes a reality don't put too much resources in Santiago as the other cities will want to break away from el cibao |
Post IP/Country: 68.174.21.22* / US | |
| #8 - Posted 3 March 2012, 2:56 PM | |
Location: United States, Brooklyn Join date: December 2007 Member #: 40 Posts: 3076 | RE: Cibao Libre Quote: Lopez31 previously said: Finally we are beginning to see an awakening within the Cibao Region. It has been long over due and the majority of the population from the Cibao are "down" with the cause. We are begining to see the first steps into what will eventually become a free cibao, Once again free from Haiti aka "Santo Domingo"............ Freedom will come either of two ways.... 1) non-violent -----Dont' bet on this one 2) Armed Revolution - More likely, but we all know some blood may have to be shed...... This so call awaekning will be put to rest with a few bribes. Ask yourself this, all those presidents from el cibao and you get the same cold shoulder. |
Post IP/Country: 68.174.21.22* / US | |
| #9 - Posted 3 March 2012, 3:29 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: March 2008 Member #: 522 Posts: 7636 | RE: Cibao Libre As much as I like the idea, I don't think anyone of us will ever see this transition ever become a reality. At least not in our life time. There are a many reasons. First too much resistance from the central governmet, second although Cibaenos are very regionalistic, the mentality is gradually fading. I just don't see a strong enough solidarity among Cibaenos for a project of this magnitude to take place and go beyond initial stages. The country is too small for it to be fragmented and become smaller then what it is already. Additionally, there is too much of a population overlap. We have many Cibaeno transplants who have made the capital their new home and vice versa. Nevertheless, the idea is good but too complex and will probably bring more problems then solutions. There needs to be a middle ground where Santiago and the region of the Cibao is treated with the importance and worthiness it deserves. Edited on 3/3/2012 8:53 PM by guillermone. |
Post IP/Country: 76.109.124.13* / US | |
| #10 - Posted 3 March 2012, 8:20 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 6153 | RE: Cibao Libre Quote: CarlosFranco previously said: Warning: if this pipe dream of yours becomes a reality don't put too much resources in Santiago as the other cities will want to break away from el cibao These people have the foolishness of not taking into account the very unfortunate fact that we Dominicans aren't the only ethnicity inhabiting Hispaniola, and that everything affecting us can only benefit our next door rival in the geopolitical game. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
Post IP/Country: 190.166.200.2* / DO | |


