| #71 - Posted 3 December 2008, 1:49 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2008 Member #: 933 Posts: 2644 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans Quote: cibaeño75 previously said: "ISn't it funny how a gut like yumnutz bashes the Churc for it's treatment of the indians and yet turns around and uses words written by the official representative of the Churc to support his claims? Is that Hypocritical? Or just plain illogical?" Indeed every preist is in theory representative of the church but if we're going by your logic then should the church as a whole be judged or consider itself represented by the actions of some pedophile preist? I say no. We can judge the church as an institution without condemning or even negating everyone involved with it. Besides, the quotes attributed to Las Casas was a historical account and not a sermon. He was not opining on faith related issues, he was recounting what he supposedly had witnessed. Also, not every catholic preist tows the official Vatican line. Latin American history is replete with many preists who can be described as revolutionaries. You're the one that sounds illogical Mr. C. What you state maybe applies today but in the late 1400's?????? I sincerely doubt it. If anything he was one of the first who wanted the Spanish Colonies to split away from Spain so he could exploit the Indian Slaves he had without paying tribute to the Royal Court. |
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| #72 - Posted 3 December 2008, 2:00 PM | |
Location: United States, New York City Join date: February 2008 Member #: 411 Posts: 3638 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans "What you state maybe applies today but in the late 1400's?????? I sincerely doubt it. " I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you trying to say that in the 1400s preists were true representatives of the church as opposed to today? Are you aware of how prevelant concubinage was among the catholic clergy in the era you're alluding to? There were popes in that very century you cited who had KNOWN children roaming about. And now your telling me that Las Casas was seeking independence for the spanish colonies so as to secure indian labor?!? LOLOL Diiiiaaaaabblooo. I see you have your own "special" set of "history" books. Try to keep the colors within the lines when you're using them. 'The past is never dead. In fact, it's not even past.' - William Faulkner |
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| #73 - Posted 3 December 2008, 3:33 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 4359 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans Quote: cibaeño75 previously said: "What you state maybe applies today but in the late 1400's?????? I sincerely doubt it. " I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you trying to say that in the 1400s preists were true representatives of the church as opposed to today? Are you aware of how prevelant concubinage was among the catholic clergy in the era you're alluding to? There were popes in that very century you cited who had KNOWN children roaming about. And now your telling me that Las Casas was seeking independence for the spanish colonies so as to secure indian labor?!? LOLOL Diiiiaaaaabblooo. I see you have your own "special" set of "history" books. Try to keep the colors within the lines when you're using them. Maybe he hasn't heard about Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia), ciby. He and his children, Cesare and Lucrezia, would be notorious for their crimes, using the enormous power that the Church had on that era to aggrandize the position of the family in the concert of the european courts of the time. Edited on 12/3/2008 3:35 PM by Lautaro. “Since the two rarely come together, anyone compelled to choose will find greater security in being feared than in being loved.” Niccolo Machiavelli |
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| #74 - Posted 3 December 2008, 5:50 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2008 Member #: 926 Posts: 1920 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans Quotes by Bartolomé de Las Casas on Account of the Devastation of the Indies And never have the Indians in all the Indies committed any act against the Spanish Christians, until those Christians have first and many times committed countless cruel aggressions against them or against neighboring nations. Yet into this sheepfold, into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. More than thirty other islands in the vicinity of San Juan are for the most part and for the same reason depopulated, and the land laid waste. We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of the slain is more like fifteen million. After the wars and the killings had ended, when usually there survived only some boys, some women, and children, these survivors were distributed among the Christians to be slaves. On the Native peoples And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world. On the Spanish colonists Their reason for killing and destroying such an infinite number of souls is that the Christians have an ultimate aim, which is to acquire gold, and to swell themselves with riches in a very brief time and thus rise to a high estate disproportionate to their merits. It should be kept in mind that their insatiable greed and ambition, the greatest ever seen in the world, is the cause of their villainies ![]() Bartolomé de Las Casas Edited on 3/24/2009 11:58 PM by yumnuk3. The fate of Los Haitises What you can do Tell the Dominican Embassy in the U.S. that you oppose the government concession to build the cement factory. Telephone 202-332-6280, fax 202-265-8057, or e-mail embassy@us.serex.gov.do |
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| #75 - Posted 3 December 2008, 7:18 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2008 Member #: 933 Posts: 2644 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans Lautoro and Cibaeno. Are you both that dense? I was pointing out that the Church back in the 1400's had no qualms treating indians like 2nd class humans and the Pope's representative in the New World could have cared less about the Tainos. |
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| #76 - Posted 3 December 2008, 8:35 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic Join date: July 2008 Member #: 1104 Posts: 659 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans Yumnuk3, Said Quotes by Bartolomé de Las Casas on Account of the Devastation of the Indies And never have the Indians in all the Indies committed any act against the Spanish Christians, until those Christians have first and many times committed countless cruel aggressions against them or against neighboring nations. Yet into this sheepfold, into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. More than thirty other islands in the vicinity of San Juan are for the most part and for the same reason depopulated, and the land laid waste. We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of the slain is more like fifteen million. After the wars and the killings had ended, when usually there survived only some boys, some women, and children, these survivors were distributed among the Christians to be slaves. On the Native peoples And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world. On the Spanish colonists Their reason for killing and destroying such an infinite number of souls is that the Christians have an ultimate aim, which is to acquire gold, and to swell themselves with riches in a very brief time and thus rise to a high estate disproportionate to their merits. It should be kept in mind that their insatiable greed and ambition, the greatest ever seen in the world, is the cause of their villainies Arkatype, Said Litsen the spanish did not kill all the native inhabitants in the island that's a myth. My worry is haitians they destroyed there side of the island through deforestation and poverty, now they're in D.R. spreading like wild fire and lowering the quality of life in the country. That should be threat number one in the country's priority to control illegal haitian immigration. Edited on 12/3/2008 8:36 PM by arkatype. You are the light of truth ARKATYPE |
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| #77 - Posted 4 December 2008, 10:02 AM | |
Location: United States, New York City Join date: February 2008 Member #: 411 Posts: 3638 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans "Are you both that dense? I was pointing out that the Church back in the 1400's had no qualms treating indians like 2nd class humans and the Pope's representative in the New World could have cared less about the Tainos." OK. But what does that have to do with you painting someone who uses Las Casas writings to condemn what coccured in the past as illogical? Obviously Las Casas reached a point of personal development where he developed a different view of the natives then most of his contemproraries and that seems to include the clergy so I still don't see where you were going by refferring to yumnuk as illogical. Edited on 12/5/2008 10:51 AM by cibaeño75. 'The past is never dead. In fact, it's not even past.' - William Faulkner |
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| #78 - Posted 4 December 2008, 7:05 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2008 Member #: 926 Posts: 1920 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans TAINO INDIAN SITES IN DOMINICAN REPUBLIC Caves played an important role in the lives of the Taino Indians. In fact, their creation myth is centered around a cave located on the island. Stories of the Taino interaction with various plants, animals, spirits and each other can be seen in the elaborate pictographs and stone carvings within the structures. Other Taino artifacts are housed at museums and even an excavated burial ground at a local beach. East Coast Jose Maria Cave Located far into the Parque Nacional del Este near La Romana, this limestone cave holds 1,200 Taino paintings depicting mythological events and a peace offering for the Spaniards in 1503. Penon Gordo, Bayahibe Penon Gordo is one of 200 caves in the Parque Nacional del Este. This cave displays a chiseled guardian figure at the entrance of the cave and several Taino paintings. Insider's tip: To get a full-tour of the Taino sites in Parque Nacional del Este, including some areas that are unknown to tour operators, hire a park ranger as a guide to any of the caves. El Pomier Caves Located north of San Cristobal, visitors can view the Caribbean's largest collection of Taino cave art. Scenes of spirits, rituals and objects of Taino belief are included in the drawings. Open 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday. Cueva de las Maravillas Located within San Pedro de Macoris, these caves contain nearly 500 Taino pictographs and petroglyphs. Open 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday. Parque Submarino La Caleta This national park reveals an excavated Taino burial ground with several skeletons on display at the beach. Open 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Friday. Los Indios de Chacuey Known as the Stonehenge of the Caribbean, a similar circular formation of rocks surrounding a stone slab indicates a possible Taino ceremonial center. North Coast La Isabela This Taino museum illustrates the way these natives lived, ate, prepared food and sustained themselves day-to-day. Visitors can examine a mock thatched hut and sample crops. National Park Jaragua, Barahona This park contains some of the oldest Taino Indian sites on the island. Cave the Poza and the Mongó Cave, within the park, display pictographs and petroglyphs of their time. North East Coast Parque Nacional Los Haitises Accessible only by an organized boat trip due to the swamps and rocky terrain that surround them, these caves display drawings of various animals and human faces. A standard boat trip, on the Ruta Litoral takes tourists on a two-and-a-half hour boat tour that visits three main caves within the park. South West Coast Museo Prehispanico A Taino museum, located in Santo Domingo, this museum showcases objects from daily life such as jewelry, pottery and ritual items are on display. Open 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday. Las Caritas Deep in the southwest corner of the country, on Lago Enriquillo, is Las Caritas. This cave is rumored to have hidden Taino leader Enriquillo from the Spanish during their conflict with the native people in the early 1500's. The cave also contains dozens of small chiseled faces into the rock walls that seem to come alive to all who enter it. ![]() Edited on 3/24/2009 11:59 PM by yumnuk3. The fate of Los Haitises What you can do Tell the Dominican Embassy in the U.S. that you oppose the government concession to build the cement factory. Telephone 202-332-6280, fax 202-265-8057, or e-mail embassy@us.serex.gov.do |
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| #79 - Posted 5 December 2008, 11:50 AM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2008 Member #: 926 Posts: 1920 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans The Legend of Hatuey Hatuey was a Taíno chief who lived on the island of Hispaniola in the early sixteenth century. He has attained legendary status for leading a group of natives in a fight against the invading Spanish, and thus becoming the first fighter against colonialism in the New World. He is celebrated as "Cuba's First National Hero." The TaÃno are pre-Colombian indigenous Amerindian inhabitants of the Bahamas and the Greater Antilles islands, which include Cuba, Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic), Puerto Rico, and Jamaica. ... Early map of Hispaniola The island of Hispaniola (from Spanish, La Española) is the second-largest island of the Antilles, lying between the islands of Cuba to the west, and Puerto Rico to the east. ... See colony and colonisation for examples of colonialism which do not refer to Western colonialism. ... In 1511, Diego Velázquez set out from Hispaniola to conquer the island of Cuba. He was preceded, however, by Hatuey, who fled Hispaniola via canoe with a party of four hundred natives and warned the Cuban natives about what to expect from the Spaniards. 1511 was a common year starting on Sunday (see link for calendar) of the Gregorian calendar. ... Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar (1465 – 1524) was a Spanish conquistador. ... Bartolomé de Las Casas later attributed the following speech to Hatuey. He showed the Cubans a basket of gold and jewels, saying: Bartolomé de Las Casas Bartolomé de Las Casas, O.P. (1484 – July 17, 1566) was a 16th century Spanish priest, and the first resident Bishop of Chiapas. ... Here is the God the Spaniards worship. For these they fight and kill; for these they persecute us and that is why we have to throw them into the sea... They tell us, these tyrants, that they adore a God of peace and equality, and yet they usurp our land and make us their slaves. They speak to us of an immortal soul and of their eternal rewards and punishments, and yet they rob our belongings, seduce our women, violate our daughters. Incapable of matching us in valor, these cowards cover themselves with iron that our weapons cannot break... Most of the Cubans could not believe Hatuey's message, and few joined him to fight. Hatuey resorted to guerrilla tactics against the Spaniards, and was able to confine them to their fort at Baracoa. Eventually the Spaniards succeeded in capturing him. On February 2, 1512, he was tied to a stake and burned alive. Before he was burned, a priest asked him if he would accept Jesus and go to heaven. Hatuey asked "Are there people like you in heaven?" When the priest assured him that there were, Hatuey replied that he wanted nothing to do with a God that allowed such cruelty to be perpetuated in His name. ![]() Edited on 3/25/2009 12:00 AM by yumnuk3. The fate of Los Haitises What you can do Tell the Dominican Embassy in the U.S. that you oppose the government concession to build the cement factory. Telephone 202-332-6280, fax 202-265-8057, or e-mail embassy@us.serex.gov.do |
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| #80 - Posted 6 December 2008, 11:04 AM | |
Location: United States Join date: June 2008 Member #: 926 Posts: 1920 | RE: Taino Ancestry Among Dominicans King Ferdinand Letter to the Taino/Arawak Indians around 1500 Below is a letter which King Ferdinand sent to the governor of Hispaniola. It was to be communicated to the Taino/Arawak Indians. It is a fascinating document. The King wants the Indians to acknowledge the Christian religion and God, and to accept the authority of the King of Spain. The letter is a mix of promises of benefits that will come to them, but quickly followed up with the direst of threats if they do not comply. In the name of King Ferdinand and Juana, his daughter, Queen of Castile and Leon, etc., conquerors of barbarian nations, we notify you as best we can that our Lord God Eternal created Heaven and earth and a man and woman from whom we all descend for all times and all over the world. In the 5,000 years since creation the multitude of these generations caused men to divide and establish kingdoms in various parts of the world, among whom God chose St. Peter as leader of mankind, regardless of their law, sect or belief. He seated St. Peter in Rome as the best place from which to rule the world but he allowed him to establish his seat in all parts of the world and rule all people, whether Christians, Moors, Jews, Gentiles or any other sect. He was named Pope, which means admirable and greatest father, governor of all men. Those who lived at that time obeyed St. Peter as Lord and superior King of the universe, and so did their descendants obey his successors and so on to the end of time. The late Pope gave these islands and mainland of the ocean and the contents hereof to the above-mentioned King and Queen, as is certified in writing and you may see the documents if you should so desire. Therefore, Their Highnesses are lords and masters of this land; they were acknowledged as such when this notice was posted, and were and are being served willingly and without resistance; then, their religious envoys were acknowledged and obeyed without delay, and all subjects unconditionally and of their own free will became Christians and thus they remain. Their Highnesses received their allegiance with joy and benignity and decreed that they be treated in this spirit like good and loyal vassals and you are under the obligation to do the same. Therefore, we request that you understand this text, deliberate on its contents within a reasonable time, and recognize the Church and its highest priest, the Pope, as rulers of the universe, and in their name the King and Queen of Spain as rulers of this land, allowing the religious fathers to preach our holy Faith to you. You own compliance as a duty to the King and we in his name will receive you with love and charity, respecting your freedom and that of your wives and sons and your rights of possession and we shall not compel you to baptism unless you, informed of the Truth, wish to convert to our holy Catholic Faith as almost all your neighbors have done in other islands, in exchange for which Their Highnesses bestow many privileges and exemptions upon you. Should you fail to comply, or delay maliciously in so doing, we assure you that with the help of God we shall use force against you, declaring war upon you from all sides and with all possible means, and we shall bind you to the yoke of the Church and of Their Highnesses; we shall enslave your persons, wives and sons, sell you or dispose of you as the King sees fit; we shall seize your possessions and harm you as much as we can as disobedient and resisting vassals. And we declare you guilty of resulting deaths and injuries, exempting Their Highnesses of such guilt as well as ourselves and the gentlemen who accompany us. We hereby request that legal signatures be af fixed to this text and pray those present to bear witness for us, etc. Edited on 3/25/2009 12:00 AM by yumnuk3. The fate of Los Haitises What you can do Tell the Dominican Embassy in the U.S. that you oppose the government concession to build the cement factory. Telephone 202-332-6280, fax 202-265-8057, or e-mail embassy@us.serex.gov.do |
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