My thoughts are that the class/racist/culture issue is very complex. De facto a classless society has seldom existed. Even in studies of remote tribes there seems to be different social statii and inheritance of these staii. Some societies developed very rigid strata - for example the caste system in India with 'untouchables brhamins' etc. Others had a conquoring race - for example the Normans in England who established lines of descent forming upper classes. In many examples these elites have had positive contributuions - in others there was deep corruption and a revolutionary situation formed. In some cases these elites tied themslelves to colonisers. Depending on your analysis perpetuation of these elites actually benefited society ( monarchists etc. ) maximising happiness and welfare, or produced oppression and misery. Some think that the reward of stability justifies thses elites - for example Europe was thrown into chaos with Napoleon after the French revolution. Undoutably though the ages rulers have used minorities as scapegoats for ills in society.
However I cannot help feeling reading the various discussions that somehow there are portions of society that wish for a 'win-loose' situation and others that wish for a 'win-win' . I would wish that the latter happens amongst the various groups in Hispanola and would hope that this can be achieved through the development of a sustainable, circular development pattern.
The challenge is to unwind the current system and move to relevant circular localized development.
Example of possible sustainable deveopment:
http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story/NewsChannel-5-travels-to-Haiti/51lnqKUYIUC7RzLwKtBRJA.cspx
Procurememt for sustainability:



http://www.sustainable-scotland.net/documents/ScotExcel-ProcurementforSustainability.pdf
Sustainabiliy

http://capitalcomments.typepad.com/capital_comments/2009/01/exploring-sustainable-development-in-china.html

Circular economy:
http://www.indigodev.com/Circular1.html




World free trade advocates would prefer to build barracks and feeding centres so the Haiti population could work in factories to export toys. WTO etc. are part of a 5th. column subverting humanities' development.

Politicians and others should note that once basic needs are met happiness is greater in poorer ( although not in poverty ) areas in N. Thailand than in the cities where incomes are much higher.

Although I have no influence I would hope that editors try and move DT towards creative solutions to the problems of today and away from constant bickering between pro-Domininans, pro-Haitians and rounds of abuse.
S.

This article shows that if any, gringo reporters are badly in need of some geography classes, cuz' last time I saw, Los Cacaos was a municipality of the San Cristobal province, at the heart of the dominican side of the fence. If something, I think that the reporter must be referring to the town of Las Cahobas, which is as dusty and Far-West style as the one in the picture.

I don't know La Cahobas seems to be becoming famous for goat peppers, organic and 'fair trade'.
http://www.pr.com/company-profile/overview/3045
S.

Gizmo, I understand the point you are trying to make and if you believe it, more power to you.

I don't.

In the DR a white person doesn't even have to be well off to utter words such as 'maldito negro', "negro del diablo". or "maldito negro Haitiano" when refering to a dark Dominican., even when the Dominican is not Haitian.

To this date, there are places in the DR that will not allow a black or mixed person to enter.

A few years ago, while on vacation, an uncle took me to a "gathering" (celebration) at a Private Club he is a member of and I could count with 1 finger the blacks that were there (who were members).

Do you know who Pedro Guerrero is?.

I was told by a friend that many years ago this black millionaire Dominican major league player, still playing for the LA Dodgers, was "not approved" to enter a high class dancing club in Santo Domingo.

He was "approved" only after him and his posse complained and complained.

I believe the papers had a field day with the story.

Meanwhile, my duddy, who is white and was behind Guerrero and his lambones, was "approved" without hesitation.

That club, like many others, was known to have a racist policy.

I don't recall the whole name but it ended, if I am not mitaken, with 'Blu".

You don't need to go too far to see racism, among their own, in the DR. Not far at all.

That might be the case, but the fact remains that the Plateau Central (the haitian region in which Las Cahobas is located) is the poorest area of the entire country (which is the same as saying that it's the poorest region in the entire island as a matter of fact), which is a contradiction by itself, being as it is the only agrarian lifeline that prevents that country for going into a full-blown famine.

by tupapaupa "As a person who enyoys traveling, my passion has taken me to many countries, poor and rich, and it's with sadness I say that to me, and this is only my opinion, the Dominican Republic, cuando se refiere a sus habitantes, is one of the most racist country I have visited."

by gizmo "THOSE THAT CREATE WEALTH ENJOY THE GAINS.....
Gizmo TuPapaUpa It has nothing to do with racism it's perception more than anything else, although im not negating the racist and profit driven factors of slavery. Just look at who established the country they were Spanish colonizers and the work was done through slaves. But the benefits and wealth went to the descendants of those colonizers not to the slaves. If you did not know? most of the wealthy families in Dominican Republic are descendants of those same families and clans of the past, that fought against the Haitians for our independence. So the question you got to ask is, do they deserve this wealth? or not? The fact that certain sectors of Dominican society are marginalized don't mean that racism is the main factor, although many believe blatantly that it's all related to race. My belief is more the goverments fault of not adressing the problems of poverty and ignoring the plight of the needy, another circumstance is the increasing numbers of people and lack of resources which compound more the aforementioned problems. The same social and racial disparities occur all across Latin America, Dominican Republic is not an exclusive example, although some country's have similar or different reasons why these problems are still prevalent within there respective societies."



Gizmo you couldn’t say it more clearly.

To say that DR is one of the most racist country make you scratch your head. When other countries in some time in their history hanged or lynched black people. Today case of some of Africa countries black people liynching white people. While in DR White or mestizo Dominican never in its history killed or wounded a black Dominican because of his/her color. If someone know a case please come forward. I don’t know what the first poster referred to as why he/she think DR is one of the most racist countries. We all get along just fine. It is not the white people fault of DR that they are better positioned economically since their descendant as gizmo stated put them in that situation.
My family is white dominican yet my father come from the campo and my mother from a santiago barrio. Who do I have to complain. I don't fault anybody for my family roots economica misfortune. When I was a todler we used to lives in one bedroom 12x12 for a family of 5. We started from zero.

Dreadlocks
Gizmo allows "it has nothing to do with racism, it is just perception" so i guess it is just perception when there are clubs that do not permit the entry or membership of people of color? he is right, to a degree. the lighter skinned people perceive the darker skinned people to be unfit for participation in their circle. racism is simply the determination of outcomes based on race, or ethnicity, in this case. the fact that the light skinned people with european backgrounds owned everything of worth has racist overtones and content, based on the definition i alluded to before. the fact that nothing has changed to any meaningful degree means that racism has not been diminished. as i mentioned before, the fact that people of european phenotype are not often seen huddling into a yola to seek an opportunity speaks eloquently to the issue that the fortunes and misfortunes, at least economically, have a racial component. and, also, to what perception do we owe the qualifier seen so often on employment solicitations "ONLY PEOPLE OF GOOD APPEARANCE NEED APPLY"? surely that does not mean that the applicant should present his or her self nattily attired!!
Gizmo Dreadlocks as far as certain clubs not allowing some types of people access, is not an exclusive problem of the Dominican Republic. Some of these clubs restrict certain people because of safety reasons or private parties or events that take place within, and they expect only people that are listed to participate in that particular event that night or day. Others won't allow people they deem lower class, because the wealthy don't rub elbows with the poor. If they were to allow anyone access than imagine the trouble makers and criminals those establishments will attract, it's ridiculous to think that giving anyone free entrance won't cause any problems. As far as Dominican blacks and others not allowed in entering some of these clubs it is problematic but im sure that even if you were a white Dominican and you don't fit their dress code and criteria, you wouldn't be allowed to enter either.

THOSE THAT CREATE WEALTH ENJOY THE GAINS.....
Gizmo TuPapaUpa It has nothing to do with racism it's perception more than anything else, although im not negating the racist and profit driven factors of slavery. Just look at who established the country they were Spanish colonizers and the work was done through slaves. But the benefits and wealth went to the descendants of those colonizers not to the slaves. If you did not know? most of the wealthy families in Dominican Republic are descendants of those same families and clans of the past, that fought against the Haitians for our independence. So the question you got to ask is, do they deserve this wealth? or not? The fact that certain sectors of Dominican society are marginalized don't mean that racism is the main factor, although many believe blatantly that it's all related to race. My belief is more the goverments fault of not adressing the problems of poverty and ignoring the plight of the needy, another circumstance is the increasing numbers of people and lack of resources which compound more the aforementioned problems. The same social and racial disparities occur all across Latin America, Dominican Republic is not an exclusive example, although some country's have similar or different reasons why these problems are still prevalent within there respective societies.

TuPapaUpa
Gizmo, I understand the point you are trying to make and if you believe it, more power to you.

I don't.

In the DR a white person doesn't even have to be well off to utter words such as 'maldito negro', "negro del diablo". or "maldito negro Haitiano" when refering to a dark Dominican., even when the Dominican is not Haitian.

To this date, there are places in the DR that will not allow a black or mixed person to enter.

A few years ago, while on vacation, an uncle took me to a "gathering" (celebration) at a Private Club he is a member of and I could count with 1 finger the blacks that were there (who were members).

Do you know who Pedro Guerrero is?.

I was told by a friend that many years ago this black millionaire Dominican major league player, still playing for the LA Dodgers, was "not approved" to enter a high class dancing club in Santo Domingo.

He was "approved" only after him and his posse complained and complained.

I believe the papers had a field day with the story.

Meanwhile, my duddy, who is white and was behind Guerrero and his lambones, was "approved" without hesitation.

That club, like many others, was known to have a racist policy.

I don't recall the whole name but it ended, if I am not mitaken, with 'Blu".

You don't need to go too far to see racism, among their own, in the DR. Not far at all.



Gizmo I agree with you're assessment as far as racism is concerned. But i hope that you agree with the position whites in D.R. have drawn power from. If you don't believe that? than give me another explanation. If you can't clearly see the legacies of slavery, then look at the similarities with other country's that had the same experiences, including the U.S. etc.....

Tupapaupa, the name of the club was Bella Blu. it was owned by a foreigner, if my reports are correct. Pedro Guerrero, who could have bought the club with the change in his pocket, was disallowed entry, along with his entourage. but just go and read carefully the tenor of Gizmo's response, and you will see what i am talking about. he offers that the owners perceive on occasion that certain people will be disruptive, and therefore, for security reasons, bar them access. EXACTLY, Gizmo!! again, do you believe that if it was a group of white businessmen from Norway, they would have said "no dice"? they are predisposed to believe that blacks will tear up the place. i hardly believe that a man with Pedro's financial wherewithal was riding around dressed like a ghetto thug. you have to stop with this denial thing, and face the truth. do you believe that the US consulate officials, who were banned on 2 seperate occasions from Santo Domingo nightclubs, had some threatening personnae? and, are you aware that white USA military personnel have a dismal record when it comes to trashing clubs in foreign countries? do you believe that we would ban a bunch of caucasian american soldiers from a nightclub? if not, why not?

I am a true believer that "opinions are like.....everybody has one".

So which part of that don't you understand?.

We are not talking about the past, rather the present.

Had I lived back in those lynching days/years I wouldn't have said what I said.

Had I lived in the 364th Infrantry days/years I would have a better understanding of what all those black soldiers went through.

Because I wasn't, I can only assume.

Do you know who Jose Francisco Pena Gomez was?.

Do you know what most Dominicans used to yell whenever he wanted to to run for office (any position), 30 odd years ago?.

"Pena Gomez no es de aqui, que se vaya para Haiti".

Do you know most yelled the same thing 30 odd years later?.

They didn't give a rat's ass he was Dominican, all they saw was that he was black and had some Haitian blood in his veins.

How come they didn't do that to Trujillo, a white Dominican whose grandmother was Haitian?.

Don't answer me because the key word is "white Dominican".