Ooooooooooooooooh, Barahona, where I spent so much time in my youth.....Mom is from there and she used to take me at least once a month to visit her family.

Haven't been there in ages......I wonder if the Parque Ladanis (I think that's the name) is still there?.

About the coffee, well, thanks but no thanks....that's the last thing I want to drink while in the DR. JAJAJA.

Cibaeno75 said:
“caonabo, everything your stating about how Haitian illegal labor is brought into the country is certainly true. Anyone with even an iota of knowlegde on the situation would not argue with you there. It's a disgusting situation that I have railed against on here time and again. The situation does indeed need to be stopped. Instead of pontificating on here what solutions can you offer to stop this horrible cycle that the business class in DR perpetuates and which there haitian counterparts condone with their silence? I'm not just talking about rhetoric either.”

The first part of the discussions concerned primarily establishing causality/authorship/responsibility for this ‘horrible cycle’ as you put it. We have reached common ground on this score. I think this is a major step forward in the debate here. Considering where we came from when this discussion began, it could be considered a milestone really. However, we do have to iron out a couple of things: 1) you mention the question of “Haitian Illegal Labor” above. To me, this is my personal opinion which I strongly believe in, because of the uniqueness of the situation of the Haitian Immigrant Workers in the DR, it can be argued that they are “technically legal” because of the complicity and tacit acquiescence of the elites and governments on both sides of the island to allow the human trafficking practice to go on and on across the border. The workers are therefore eligible to receive legal papers from the government. And the people should be alerted of the hypocrisy of the business class and government when they are trying to blame the victims for all the ills of Dominican society. 2) I am concerned with your use of the term ‘pontificating’ which I don’t think characterizes my presence on this forum. My purpose here is simply to seek understanding.
What is the solution? As I said before, the solution lies fundamentally in Haiti at the hands of the Haitian Masses: Workers, toilers, progressives, poor peasants. No one else has the solution and nowhere else can provide the solution. Period.

Texasshoe said:
“Well put Cibby,
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, Whatever the solution is it will be painful to all involved. In this instance there is enough blame for both sides of the border to go around, but without cleaning up the government acknowledgement from both sides it will never happen.”

I do not know if you have any possible solutions in mind that you may find that painful. In the DR, we need a fair and just solution on the question of the Haitian Immigrant Workers at present. In Haiti, the solution will come from the masses because the crooks in the Haitian elite and government have no solution. Contrary to what you think, this is not a blaming game. We are dealing with what some Human Beings choose to do to accumulate wealth at the expense of other Human Beings. This is a worldwide issue. Today everyone is talking about the financial crooks in the United States who screwed up taxpayers in the whole world. Greed is at the center of everything we’ve been talking about till now.

Cibaeno75 said:
“I agree. Accountability and transparency would go a long way in helping solve the illegal situation as well as a host of others.”

I think when the Dominican masses become aware of the ploy and mechanism of the ‘horrible cycle’ set in motion by those in charge of the society, they will definitely demand of the government the “Accountability and transparency” you are raising here which I do agree with.

Generoso said:
“The solution is very simple. Apply the labor laws, and provide documentation to the workers in transit so the government can regulate their permanence and they can be treated with all their rights.
This implies the Haitian governments cooperation as well, to provide documentation which they do not offer.

This task is immense and extremely costly, and of course objected to the groups that benefit the most from this inhuman slave trade of modern times.
When the big sugar barons and agricultural and construction lords that benefit from this cheap labor exploitation are penalized and fined then this human trafficking will slow down.
No government present or past has decided to lock horns with these most influential and powerful groups because of obvious reasons.
The tentacles of these "groups" reach out internationally and they control not only agricultural concerns including sugar, coffee, tobacco, and construction,
but also banks, hotels, tourism groups, newspapers and media companies, and many others.
I really don't see the status quo changing in the immediate future because of the lack of will on both sides of the border.”

I agree with Generoso on the authors of this terrible situation. However the solution he proposes might be unlikely because the government is complicit in the whole deal. Only the Dominican people can force the government to conform to fairness and justice on behalf of the Haitian Immigrant Workers. And that can only be possible if they see through the ploy and mechanism of this “horrible cycle” as Cibaeno75 puts it.

Lautaro said:
“Unless of course it all comes down to the point bloody revolution by the haitian masses, which seems to be the "solution" that CaonaboHaiti and the likes of him are striving for all along. Their wet dream being to recreate Saint Domingue, august 1791 on our soil. "Push all the dominican exploiters to the sea" appears to be their motto. "Exploiter" being the name which they would assign anyone opposing their agenda. Just like "colonist" and "counterrevolutionary" on the one side, and "rebel" and "brigand" on the other, were the signals for committing general mass slaughter and the most heinous of crimes during those troubled times.”

Why do you have a need to divide and conquer? This debate has not been about any of what you put forward here. The debate was chiefly about establishing causality/authorship/responsibility for the emergence of the horrible situation of the Haitian Immigrant Workers. Why try opening up a can of worms that has nothing to do with the subject in discussion. Come on, be fair here! Grow up! This is a debate that has just turned a corner and seems to be moving forward. And you seem to be looking backwards. That’s reactionary, divisive and counterproductive. Are you a Haitian hater? Go play cards, dominoes or something and be happy.


Generoso said:
“Wet dream is correct, and fuzzy wishful thinking that will never materialize. Of course we can never get too complacent and just rely on our armed forces of the present, but we can rely on our Dominican populace that has been the guardian of our nationality time and time again.
Lautaro, I am curious to know since I read that after the persecution and exiling of the French colonist of about 25,000 persons that were in Haiti, they mostly all migrated to the USA and established their residence principally in Louisiana, becoming citizens later after the 1803 Louisiana purchase but remaining francophiles.
Also that the Haitian slave "volunteers" that fought under Lafayette in the US revolution were 800 not 500 as was recently said by Bill Clinton in Haiti, and those came back to Haiti, were inspired by the French revolution in 1789 and started the uprising in 1791.
Can you shed some light on those two subjects?

Just a few moments ago, I was complimenting generoso on his great leap forward on reaching common ground on the very fundamental issue of the cause of the situation that created what we have in the DR today. Generoso really surprised me. Lautaro’s ridiculous and reactionary hallucinations and paranoia bring generoso right back to previous confusions and attitudes at the beginning of the whole discussion. Lautaro’s twisted tactics block growth that is necessary to move forward.

CaonaboHayti
Sorry but no cigar. I said "apply the labor laws".
FYI the labor laws state: Under no circumstances there should be a proportion of foreign labor greater
than 20% in any project, business or private or public enterprise.
So that means that there can NEVER be more than 20% foreigners working in any project, that is why it is called the 80/20 rule, which means 80% Dominicans and 20% Haitians or other nationalities.
So both private enterprise and the government that hires them are technically breaking the law.
In the USA I would be empowered to do a citizens arrest to those companies.

I could tell you the same thing, cuz' you are hallucinating if you think that the dominican state would go on and legalize 2,000,000 of your compatriots, I assure you that Hell would freeze over before the state would commit that suicidal move. It would only serve as an incentive for the others on your side to take the easy way and cross over, and we wouldn't want that now, would we? As generoso said, the law clearly states that the percentage of workers in every workplace should be 80% native and 20% foreigner. Guess what would happen with those that would be lay off if the state applied the law?

"So again the same point and historical mistake happens time and time again.
The French brought their chemist experience and agricultural know how from Haiti to Cuba.
Then to Louisiana, then back to Cuba. Then back to Louisiana. But they were the pillars of progress and when the affranchis and military took over in Haiti they didn't have the brains and they failed miserably."

No, generoso, they were part of the slavery establishment and to be set in the trashcan of history. Get that clear!

What was that?????? Please explain.

I have to agree with Caonabo on this. You guys were lamenting the exit of 'expertise' and 'managerial skill' due to the Haitian Revolution. Oh please Genocide is a sick, terrible thing but if ever there was a time it was justified that was the one. More sugar plantations powered by slow genocide of blacks was not more progress. One of DR's chief virtues (or chief fortunes) was avoiding the plague of sugar for so long. It is too bad the Marines assured it's re-introduction in the 20th C., until then the best minds of DR were all suspicious of this often inhuman industry.

"generoso previously said:

So that explains a lot of things.
The Haitians exported and exiled the best human capital in a thirst to confiscate their properties and keep them for high rankings Haitian military that were turned over as a war price."

You are referring to a Revolutionary War which means the transformation of property relations where one class is overthrown and replaced by another. The goal of the revolution was not to "export and exile the best human capital in a thirst to confiscate their properties....Rather it was to overthrow first and foremost the bloody Slavery System and achieve Independence for the country. That is called Historical Materialism. In your blind thirst to downgrade the Glorious and only successful Slave Revolution Humanity has ever known, you are propagating disinformation wholesale.

Do you honestly feel that every single white in haiti was guilty? Do you feel that Dessaline's massacre of the whites that were still left at the end of the revolution is justifiable?

What about Spartacus slave rebellion agaisnt the Romans 100 years before Christ?
That one doesn't count?
Papa Touissant welcomed back the French colonists that were "the oppressors" in an attempt to revive the failing sugar industry.
Later the slaves remained technically "free" but in reality they were under the same yoke of oppression or worse than when the "grand blancs" were in charge.
Henri Christophe used the backs of poor Haitians to build the "Citadelle" high on top of a mountain near Cape Haitien, getting 20,000 Haitians killed in the construction because of rough terrain and harsh living conditions. Twenty thousand! Is that being liberated, to slowly kill in hard forced labor, for a useless fortress 20,000 of your country men? A fortress that was just the crazy dream of a mad despot who was ignored by the French?