| #11 - Posted 31 March 2009, 7:59 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: February 2008 Member #: 336 Posts: 1984 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: Lautaro previously said: "Los Motivos del Machete" by José Miguel Soto Jimenez. This book is the best among all the ones that I have ever read about the history of the DR, specially regarding its military affairs. A masterpiece and must have, if there ever was one. With a title like that and your endorsement I think this one is moving to the top of my list! |
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| #12 - Posted 31 March 2009, 8:03 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: February 2008 Member #: 336 Posts: 1984 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: USADR previously said: Good thread, I'm taking notes. Has anyone here read: Dominican Cultures The Making of a Caribbean Society Edited by Bernardo Vega ^ I liked it, but they're going to have to update the part about our very real component of our Taino ancestry (I know it's much smaller than our Euro/Afro.) I read some of the essays in there, but it's age does tell. Also I found it felt just short of feeling in depth and scholarly but def not popular format. The essay on immigration was most interesting to me. |
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| #13 - Posted 31 March 2009, 8:39 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 5613 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: generoso previously said: Quote: Lautaro previously said: Another good book (although I must warn you in the sense of it being a extremely critical one against the DR) is "La comunidad mulata: El caso socio-politico de la República Dominicana", by Pedro Andres Perez Cabral. The guy sustains on his book how our being a mulatto nation have worked against us, going as far as giving the haitian state more legitimacy than ours. Also, he sustains the myth about Taino extinction. The usefulness of the book, in my humble opinion, lies in his comparing the DR's racial history with the one of other countries in the region (specially Cuba and Brazil, which are the closest to us in mixedness). Let me say this, we are indeed a very mixed blood mulatto nation. But we are in denial about that as well, because we "want to be like whites". There was a saying in my youth "Ser blanco es una ocupación" meaning that the whitest young men were going to get the richest young women to marry them. In Cuba and Puerto Rico for example that much race mixing does not exist and you either find white or black but not mixed mulatto that much, as we are. Still we do have our prejudices against real dark blacks. What is your opinion? That is undeniable, general. Must of all, one have to take into account that, given the fact that we're a westernized society (where western beauty canons are the norm), white women are really a "prized commodity" on the market. So it's a given that we'll always tend to treasure them whenever we have the good (or bad) fortune of getting hooked with one, so to speak. "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
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| #14 - Posted 31 March 2009, 8:41 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: February 2008 Member #: 340 Posts: 1299 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: generoso previously said: Quote: Lautaro previously said: Another good book (although I must warn you in the sense of it being a extremely critical one against the DR) is "La comunidad mulata: El caso socio-politico de la República Dominicana", by Pedro Andres Perez Cabral. The guy sustains on his book how our being a mulatto nation have worked against us, going as far as giving the haitian state more legitimacy than ours. Also, he sustains the myth about Taino extinction. The usefulness of the book, in my humble opinion, lies in his comparing the DR's racial history with the one of other countries in the region (specially Cuba and Brazil, which are the closest to us in mixedness). Let me say this, we are indeed a very mixed blood mulatto nation. But we are in denial about that as well, because we "want to be like whites". There was a saying in my youth "Ser blanco es una ocupación" meaning that the whitest young men were going to get the richest young women to marry them. In Cuba and Puerto Rico for example that much race mixing does not exist and you either find white or black but not mixed mulatto that much, as we are. Still we do have our prejudices against real dark blacks. What is your opinion? generoso, I know the question was asked to Lautaro, but here is my opinion on the matter: The ethnohistory of all 3 islands (Cuba, PR & DR) have, at least in the beginning alot in common. You have the native population ( Amerindian tribes) who either died via disease, war, slavery or were absorbed by the conquering Spaniards and their African slaves (DR had the largest population of all three). In addition to this similar 'ethnic base' you have alot of cultural ties from the beginning right up to modern times, there was always back and forth migration/immigration between all three. Even our Spanish is of the same Canarian origin. The Cuban musical genre 'Son' came out of this as well as other examples. Now for the differences: DR from the beginning always had a relatively high percentage of the population that was of mixed descent. If memory serves me right, the trend in various historical census is for the mixed population to increase as the white and black population decreases. The percentage of Afrodescendancy in DR is relatively higher (due to those of mixed descent) not because of importation of African slaves (compared to Cuba or Brazil we imported and especially Haiti) but because of A) Relatively poor immigration (from European countries) and B) White flight Even though Cuba imported alot more African slaves, Spainiards remained in Cuba alot longer and they emigrated to Cuba alot more (there are many older Cubans who's parents or great grandparents are Spanish Gallegos). When I was a kid there was always a saying 'Los Cubanos o son bien blanco o prieto' and when they were prieto they looked straight from the Congo. Any mulatto Cuban was alwasy confused for PR or DR. The reason for this was that Cuba was one of, if not the only LatinAmerican country to have segregation and even a 'racial' massacre. Somewhere between the two was Puerto Rico, Puerto Ricans are a very tri-racial people with Euroancestry being the highest component but I would never call them a 'white', they are very mixed despite what the last census stated ( a whole other story). I know I've jumped around alot, but anyone please feel free to add and/or correct. |
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| #15 - Posted 31 March 2009, 8:44 PM | |
Location: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo Join date: December 2007 Member #: 38 Posts: 5613 | RE: top DR historian/book Another books to include into your list: 1 - Tangomangos, by Carlos Esteban Deive. A good essay about piracy and colonial monopoly on Hispaniola during the XVI century, analizing the events that would lead to the devastations of Osorio in 1605-1606. 2- La Mala Vida, by the same author. This is a collection of tales about the lives of the scum and villainy of this island during the XVI, XVII and XVIII centuries (a sector which, sadly, comprised the majority of our population during those times). "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good." Niccolo Macchiavelli - The Prince |
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| #16 - Posted 31 March 2009, 8:51 PM | |
Location: United States Join date: February 2008 Member #: 340 Posts: 1299 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: Lautaro previously said: Quote: generoso previously said: Quote: Lautaro previously said: Another good book (although I must warn you in the sense of it being a extremely critical one against the DR) is "La comunidad mulata: El caso socio-politico de la República Dominicana", by Pedro Andres Perez Cabral. The guy sustains on his book how our being a mulatto nation have worked against us, going as far as giving the haitian state more legitimacy than ours. Also, he sustains the myth about Taino extinction. The usefulness of the book, in my humble opinion, lies in his comparing the DR's racial history with the one of other countries in the region (specially Cuba and Brazil, which are the closest to us in mixedness). Let me say this, we are indeed a very mixed blood mulatto nation. But we are in denial about that as well, because we "want to be like whites". There was a saying in my youth "Ser blanco es una ocupación" meaning that the whitest young men were going to get the richest young women to marry them. In Cuba and Puerto Rico for example that much race mixing does not exist and you either find white or black but not mixed mulatto that much, as we are. Still we do have our prejudices against real dark blacks. What is your opinion? That is undeniable, general. Must of all, one have to take into account that, given the fact that we're a westernized society (where western beauty canons are the norm), white women are really a "prized commodity" on the market. So it's a given that we'll always tend to treasure them whenever we have the good (or bad) fortune of getting hooked with one, so to speak. Correct, we're a westernized society but in my opinion it's a little bit more to it than just whiteness per se. Beyond the socioeconomic connection (white tourist, white American, whiter elite family=generally wealthier) in terms of who'll get the most flak for being ugly is someone with stereotypical broad West African features. I think there is a range in the preferred phenotype Dominicans look at as beautiful. Relatively straighter features are looked at as prettier and those features are stereotypically associated with those of Euroancestry even if the person is blacker/darker than someone with more 'West African looking' features. |
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| #17 - Posted 31 March 2009, 10:21 PM | |
Location: United States, DR Join date: August 2008 Member #: 1291 Posts: 8401 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: Manhattanite previously said: Quote: generoso previously said: Get "Foundations of Despotism" Peasants, the Trujillo regime, and modernity in Dominican History, by Ricard Lee Turits. Best book on the subject I have read so far, and I have read many. It is a powerful critique of the simplistic demonizing of the dictatorial model of politics used by Trujillo. It also makes you understand why the guerrilla uprisings didn't succeed in the DR and they did in Cuba. Definitely a good one, I reviewed it @ my blog. In fact I may have recommended it to you gen! It's an important contriubution towards balanced understanding of that era, and the American historian doesn't have a brazen agenda pro or con Trujillo. My take, also informed by the Bosch book I mentioned, is that the jefe's emergence was almost necessary given the threats (from sugar and on the border) and opportunity for 'rational' reorganization of land. I also took notice of the section on the failure of the so-called barbudos from Cuba. Makes you wonder about the necessity of the Yankee invasion. The USA 1965 invasion was one of the most unjust and worst political decisions of all time by then the cowboy and Texan President L.B. Johnson, who escalated the Vietnam conflict and micromanaged that war as well. We should really sue for damages on that one, because instead of the US serving as a referee which is what they were supposed to do, the US backed the gorillas as usual, and set us back a generation at least. Get "Overthrow" by Stephen Kinzer to be enlightened about US interventions from Hawaii to Iraq. I have it if you want to trade. Edited on 3/31/2009 10:25 PM by generoso. "Speak softly, and carry a big stick, you will go far". |
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| #18 - Posted 31 March 2009, 10:42 PM | |
Location: United States, DR Join date: August 2008 Member #: 1291 Posts: 8401 | RE: top DR historian/book Re your comments about race we could also use this thread sort of with a little discrimination to keep out the crazies, to discuss that issue because we are achieving something here, and that is a point of clarity as of why we behave a certain way and our own particular definition of maybe being bias to blacks or just having the definition of a "black attitude" and yet not prejudiced to blacks, if you can separate the two. An Dominican anthropologist would be a welcome addition to our panel. Regarding Puerto Ricans I find them very white and a very classist society as well. I lived there for a while, and yes they are much whiter in general than Dominicans, and the trend of the "upper classes" is going towards just speaking english in some places as a measure of exclusivity and their feelings of superiority to us and the "jibaro" lower classes. This really disturbed me when I lived there as sometimes persons would just say to me "english" please and it was obvious that they spoke spanish. Edited on 3/31/2009 10:43 PM by generoso. "Speak softly, and carry a big stick, you will go far". |
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| #19 - Posted 1 April 2009, 7:38 AM | |
Location: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me Join date: December 2007 Member #: 9 Posts: 13562 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: generoso previously said: Re your comments about race we could also use this thread sort of with a little discrimination to keep out the crazies, to discuss that issue because we are achieving something here, and that is a point of clarity as of why we behave a certain way and our own particular definition of maybe being bias to blacks or just having the definition of a "black attitude" and yet not prejudiced to blacks, if you can separate the two. An Dominican anthropologist would be a welcome addition to our panel. Regarding Puerto Ricans I find them very white and a very classist society as well. I lived there for a while, and yes they are much whiter in general than Dominicans, and the trend of the "upper classes" is going towards just speaking english in some places as a measure of exclusivity and their feelings of superiority to us and the "jibaro" lower classes. This really disturbed me when I lived there as sometimes persons would just say to me "english" please and it was obvious that they spoke spanish. genoroso my little jibarito,you should not have felt so insecure in la isla del encanto....After being liberated from Espana in 1898 the upper classes and the business class knew which side the bread was buttered on...The business tentacles of Puerto Rico are spread throughout the Caribbean and for such a small island to have accomplished so much is a credit to its people ....They covetously guard their culture and at the same time have a broad history of mixing with the business and military community of the USA.....many many American Product Distribution rights are held in PR for the whole Caribbean.....that is why Hato Rey has a skyline lets get ready to RUUMMMMMMBBBLLLEE |
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| #20 - Posted 1 April 2009, 8:56 AM | |
Location: United States, New York City Join date: February 2008 Member #: 411 Posts: 5683 | RE: top DR historian/book Quote: Lautaro previously said: Another good book (although I must warn you in the sense of it being a extremely critical one against the DR) is "La comunidad mulata: El caso socio-politico de la República Dominicana", by Pedro Andres Perez Cabral. The guy sustains on his book how our being a mulatto nation have worked against us, going as far as giving the haitian state more legitimacy than ours. Also, he sustains the myth about Taino extinction. The usefulness of the book, in my humble opinion, lies in his comparing the DR's racial history with the one of other countries in the region (specially Cuba and Brazil, which are the closest to us in mixedness). That book is actually available free online for whomever is interested: http://www.cielonaranja.com/comunidadmulata.pdf "If you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill |
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