Dominican Today Forum » Living in the DR » General Info » Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
#261 - Posted 2 November 2011, 11:49 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Quote:
guillermone previously said:

Quote:
BernardJeanPierre previously said:

Quote:
mirabal4ever previously said:

Quote:
guillermone previously said:

I have no problem with the celebration of Afro-Dominican customs and cultural practices. In fact I encourage everyone or anyone who identifies with this sub-cultural group to use it as a way to distinguish themselves from among the larger culture to which they belong. And it also serves as a method to both preserve authenticity and perpetuate longevity.

However, I do not agree and have a problem with the assumption such practices are actually mainstream, as if it were all encompassing to include every Dominicans to be culturally undifferentiated from among each other.

There are Dominicans whose culture is no doubt predominately African, others are predominately Hispanic/Spanish and others may also have a heavily Taino accentuated influence. This is what ignites all sorts of controversy when ever an attempt is made to classify Dominicans into certain categories, all of a sudden we are some how in a kind of racial/cultural denial.

The reality is the DR has varied and contrasting cultural realities through which categorization can actually be achieved without resorting to accusations and the misconception of self-rejection.


"This is what ignites all sorts of controversy when ever an attempt is made to classify Dominicans into certain categories, all of a sudden we are some how in a kind of racial/cultural denial".

Write a letter to Henry Louis Gates and tell him that. Gui you are a Picasso!




Well Guillermone, that is one thing you don't have to worry about. There are only a very few people who would ever conclude that any African originating practice is mainstream. Generally speaking most people already know that African aspects of Dominican culture are not mainstream at all. What they don't understand is WHY it's like that when there is such a considerably large genetic input from Africa. So I doubt you would find many people who assume African practices are universal, what you may find however are people who don't understand how the Taino aspects of Dominican culture are glorified much more than the African aspects (comparatively) even though considering the makeup of most Dominican one would assume it to be the other way around.


LIke I said and I will repeat it again, there are Dominicans who are PREDOMINATELY AFRICAN, and PREDOMINATELY HISPANIC/SPANISH and within those two categories you may or may not also have a heavily accentuated TAINO influence. All three harmonously co-exist among themselves and the reason why people are perplexed, from afar consider it as odd because of our unique and unusual blend of racial composition and people tend to misunderstand that which they are not familiar with.

The racial composition of the Dominican people is highly unusual, not at all common in the Americas. And it is not necessarily that similar mixtures do not exist, but rather what is definitely unusual is the extent or the extensiveness of that mixture, and it is precisely this lack of homogeneousness which is unknown and quite unusual in the western world and therefore misunderstood by people like yourself.


Well the Dominican Republic is certainly different, but it's not so unique to where it's not understandable. There many places in the Americas that have similar mixtures of - Spanish, African and Indian. That mix to varying degrees is found all over the Americas. Dominican culture is certainly unique as most large cultures are, but the racial composition is not some anomaly of ethnic mixture. The reasons why some people don't understand is because although Dominicans (very generally speaking) have a considerable African genetic input, this is not reflected in the culture with the same emphasis as the Taino aspects of Dominican culture. This very forum is a testament to that. Have you ever seen a post about the African aspects of Dominican culture??? That is exactly what one poster commented. He noticed the stark contrast in the post about Taino ancestry and the one about African Music.

I don't disagree with everything you say. There are Dominicans who are way more Taino, more Spanish and more African. Not all Dominicans are the same, no arguement there. What I am saying is that the African aspects of Dominican culture receiving less attention and interest are not a coincidence. It just another part of the structure. THAT is what people see and notice. It has little to nothing to do with categorization requirements. It's about a re-ocurring theme.
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#262 - Posted 3 November 2011, 11:17 AM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
I never said that the racial composition of the DR was an anomaly. What I did say however was that the Dominican Republic is the ONLY country in Spanish Latin America which has the most extensive amalgamation of races and it is precisely for this specific reason what makes the DR unique and in this sense we are most definitely an anomoly among all the countries of the region and maybe even the western hemisphere.

It is unfortunate, but it is actually this unusualness which provokes and leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation. Although, many make attempts at understanding our uniqueness, it is precisely those same people who immediately turn around and ridicule, point fingers and label us as if we were performers in a freak show, who come across as odd, peculiar or strange. Dominicans are not any of that but we are most certainly different.

I just can not think of any one single place around the world, where one can easily observe a large segment of its population to have a wide range, every skin hue of the color spectrum representated among its people. I mean where can you go and see relatives with close blood lines, as close as brothers and sisters to have distinct racial phenotypes which jumps from one extreme to the other? This is more then just common but happens all the time within the same family unit or ancestral lines all over the DR.

Nevertheless, I keep reading the usual rhetoric from people like yourself who constantly repeat and say that ".....the African aspects of Dominican culture receiving less attention and interest........" But I have always insisted and asked those individuals to please provide examples of how is it that we give it "less attention and Interest." The best they can come up with, just to state one example, if I recall correctly, has something to do and falls in the line of a Dominican preference to "pelo bueno vs pelo malo." Well, I mean this or anything which relates to esthetics is very personal in nature, most definitely subjective, a contemporary but transient view of beauty and hardly good enough to substantiate alegations of an African denial.

Doctor Gates in his documentary was unable to give us anything solid either. He could not prove without a reasonable doubt that Dominicans in general fail to recognize African elements in their culture and neither can you Bernard. Perhaps this "re-ocurring theme" which you talk about is subliminal in nature, manifested as an uncouncious reaction to racial identity. If true, then it remains strictly that, an unproven proposition and this is how your hypothesis needs to be presented. Other then that, it remains as simply conjecture.
Edited on 11/4/2011 12:06 PM by guillermone.
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#263 - Posted 4 November 2011, 2:08 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Quote:
brasilenosisback previously said:

Quote:
guillermone previously said:

I never said that the racial composition of the DR was an anomaly. What I did say however was that the Dominican Republic is the ONLY country in Spanish Latin America which has the most extensive amalgamation of races and it is precisely for this specific reason what makes the DR unique and in this sense we are most definitely an anomoly among all the countries of the region and maybe even the western hemisphere.

It is unfortunate, but it is actually this unusualness which provokes and leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation. Although, many make attempts at understanding our uniqueness, it is precisely those same people who immediately turn around and ridicule, point fingers and label us as if we were performers in a freak show, who come across as odd, peculiar or strange. Dominicans are not any of that but we are most certainly different.

I just can not think of any one single place around the world, where one can easily observe a large segment of its population to have a wide range, every skin hue of the color spectrum representated among its people. I mean where can you go and see relatives with close blood lines, as close as brothers and sisters to have distinct racial phenotypes which jumps from one extreme to the other? This is more then just common but happens all the time within the same family unit or ancestral lines all over the DR.

Nevertheless, I keep reading the usual rhetoric from people like yourself who constantly repeat and say that ".....the African aspects of Dominican culture receiving less attention and interest........" But I have always insisted and asked those individuals to please provide examples of how is it that we give it "less attention and Interest." The best they can come up with, just to state one example, if I recall correctly, has something to do and falls in the line of a Dominican preference to "pelo bueno vs pelo malo." Well, I mean this or anything which relates to esthetics is very personal in nature, most definitely subjective, a contemporary but transient view of beauty and hardly good enough to substantiate alegations of an African denial.

Doctor Gates in his documentary was unable to give us anything solid either. He could not prove without a reasonable doubt that Dominicans in general fail to recognize African elements in their culture and neither can you Bernard. Perhaps this "re-ocurring theme" which you talk about is subliminal in nature, manifested as an uncouncious reaction to racial identity. If true, then it remains strictly that, an unproven proposition and this is how your hypothesis needs to be presented. Other then that, it remains as simply conjecture.


Hey!!!............just shut up.


Hey is for horses.

But Nevertheless, you are very FUNNY.......................

Just keep up the comedy show and leave us amused............
Edited on 11/4/2011 2:12 PM by guillermone.
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#264 - Posted 5 November 2011, 9:49 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
@BernardJeanPierre Again, take this forum itself, how many times do you see people posting things about their African heritage??? And why do we have to?

@BernardJeanPierre Ever heard of the African Woman's Movement in the Dominican Republic?? Ever heard of the Taino Woman's Movement in the Dominican Republic?? No to both, for the simple reason that we don’t have African or Taino women in DR; we only have Dominican women, a mix of Spanish, Taino and African

@BernardJeanPierre As I have already said there ARE Dominicans who are NOT Black at all, or NOT White at all, or NOT White at all. You can say whatever you want, Dominicans are not pure blacks nor pure white, nor do we claim to be; we are just Dominicans in whatever shade we may come even within the same families.

@BernardJeanPierre]I am NOT equating that with racism either, but it shows you that there IS an issue, its NOT equal representation. And why should it be equally represented? Who, who don’t have our experience and blood have the right to tell us what is fair for us to do or feel?

@BernardJeanPierre You can just as easily say that the "pelo malo" thing is really nothing at all. But if it is simply nothing relevant to the issue, explain to me why. Is it simply coincidence (again) that "pelo malo" is related to the type of hair that most Black people have naturally?? And is it simply coincidence that "pelo bueno" is related to the type of hair that is NOT related to Black people?? And again you come with your famous "pelo malo" thing. African Americans don’t call it pelo malo, but kinky, have several gradations for it and, at least in New York, the African American women spend more money than any other group taking care of their hair to make it straight with hot combs, flat irons, chemicals like perming, relaxing, or straightening. Besides straightening it, they use the most expensive products and are frequent clients of Dominican beauticians because their do a better job. Are they denying their root because they want to have straight hair or are they expressing some type of negativity related to Black people?

You were so busy with the article that didn’t bother to read the comments. They explain clearly how stupid it is to call that people white or black.

@BernardJeanPierre But how often is it that a person on this site EVER says ANYTHING in defense of a Haitian?? Why should Dominicans defend Haitians or explain why "they are sick and illiterate"? What difference those reasons make to us? Are we responsible for the whys? Why don’t you ask the responsible to correct that wrong instead of accusing us for not defending them? By the way, show us who defend them and the impact that defense have in Haitians lives? How many eat, work, go to school, have health care or basic service, let’s say, with your fair defense? And the more bugging question, why keep defending the comparatively few from Dominicans, while millions are attacked in Haiti, by Haitians, with deathly consequences? What form of racism could be viler than the restavek? Those need urgent defense, but real, meaningful, life changing defense.
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#265 - Posted 7 November 2011, 10:46 AM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Quote:
BernardJeanPierre previously said:

Quote:
mirabal4ever previously said:

Quote:
guillermone previously said:

I have no problem with the celebration of Afro-Dominican customs and cultural practices. In fact I encourage everyone or anyone who identifies with this sub-cultural group to use it as a way to distinguish themselves from among the larger culture to which they belong. And it also serves as a method to both preserve authenticity and perpetuate longevity.

However, I do not agree and have a problem with the assumption such practices are actually mainstream, as if it were all encompassing to include every Dominicans to be culturally undifferentiated from among each other.

There are Dominicans whose culture is no doubt predominately African, others are predominately Hispanic/Spanish and others may also have a heavily Taino accentuated influence. This is what ignites all sorts of controversy when ever an attempt is made to classify Dominicans into certain categories, all of a sudden we are some how in a kind of racial/cultural denial.

The reality is the DR has varied and contrasting cultural realities through which categorization can actually be achieved without resorting to accusations and the misconception of self-rejection.


"This is what ignites all sorts of controversy when ever an attempt is made to classify Dominicans into certain categories, all of a sudden we are some how in a kind of racial/cultural denial".

Write a letter to Henry Louis Gates and tell him that. Gui you are a Picasso!




Well Guillermone, that is one thing you don't have to worry about. There are only a very few people who would ever conclude that any African originating practice is mainstream. Generally speaking most people already know that African aspects of Dominican culture are not mainstream at all. What they don't understand is WHY it's like that when there is such a considerably large genetic input from Africa. So I doubt you would find many people who assume African practices are universal, what you may find however are people who don't understand how the Taino aspects of Dominican culture are glorified much more than the African aspects (comparatively) even though considering the makeup of most Dominican one would assume it to be the other way around.

I see you have been in this forum for a good period yet you still don't understand that Dominicans don't have the same connection between race and culture as "African Americans" and other groups of the sub Saharan African diaspora. In DR as you must know by now the dominant culture was the Spanish but what you might not understand is that the Tainos ,far from disappearing ,were absorbed into the Spanish population of the time creating a mestizo core that is the cultural heart of Dominicans regardless of genetic background. You must be amazed that Taino words are very common in Dominican Spanish while African words are almost non-existent which is due to the fact that the African though contributing plenty to the DNA pool of DR did not contribute as much culturally (as would be expected by the genetic influence) and this is due to many circumstances ,especially a unique history.
Until you get it into your thick skull that Dominicans do not view the world through the US based views of race and identity you will always scratch your head with Dominicans. One unique phenomenon in Dominican history is that DR was a victim from the beginning of a hateful and racist black republic that tried from the beginning to destroy our nation and its culture so you will find some obvious negative associations with said republic and Afrocentrism in general. Besides Dominicans understand mixed to mean MIXED ,not the totally illogical and twisted concept that a person with 2 (or 3)sources of DNA be called the same as someone of 1 source.


Los enemigos de la Patria, por consiguiente nuestros, están todos muy acordes en estas ideas; destruir la nacionalidad aunque para ello sea preciso aniquilar a la Nación entera

si vis pacem para bellum
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#266 - Posted 7 November 2011, 11:19 AM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Excellent Pepe !!!! You summed it up well. Most definitely we Do take the "mixed race" ideology quite serious and turn it into something almost a kind of a fourth racial category.

I think this is the reason why we are misunderstood, because we are a country ahead its time. Never in history has there been a break down of barriers of all sorts, the ease of travel restrictions, increased communications, elimination of political, economic, social and cultural barriers. It is a New World Order concept has long ago begun to take shape.

Planet earth is no longer an isolated place, divided by literal or symbolic "walls" to separate us from each other as it once was. Not even national boundaries use to as a demarkation to define nations, can to stop the cross over of people from one side to another. The result is the inevitable, the intermingling of races as a normal everyday event, a common occurrence, now seen more then ever before.

But regardless of that, the world has not quite yet reached anywhere near the level as in the DR and the reason why no one has quite digested and accepted our mixed race concept. Nevertheless, the world is most certainly headed towards that direction. In the mean time, until we are better understood, we will have to deal with the criticism and finger pointing as best we can and continue to defend our still very unique racial identity.

However, there will come a time where the Dominican people will no longer be different from other places around the world. Everyone will likely be racially equal, a mixed breed of people. It is quite possible that maybe countries similar to Japan, will also lose its Homogeneity and be like everybody else, all members of an undefined race of human beings.
Edited on 11/7/2011 3:33 PM by guillermone.
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#267 - Posted 7 November 2011, 1:23 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Carlos Esteban Deive (Dominican) said :

"...La temprana desaparición de los naturales de la Española fue también causa que su cultura, que a la llegada de los conquistadores atravesaba por una etapa neolítica, de cultivo intenso de la agricultura y producción de cerámica y materiales líticos, no pasara a integrarse por completo a la simbiosis operada más tarde con la cultura de otros grupos foráneos.

De la cultura taína restan muy pocos remanentes, y estos corresponden sobre todo a los aspectos materiales de la misma. Hay que advertir, por lo demás, que varios de esos aspectos perduraron a través del esclavo africano, quien los hizo suyos y los incorporó a sus costumbres y hábitos de trabajo...

Así, por ejemplo, cuando los taínos empezaban a extinguirse, los negros habían logrado ya dominar la técnica del cultivo de la yuca y la preparación del casabe, que era el alimento básico de aquellos. A través de los esclavos africanos, los taínos legaron a nuestra cultura el cultivo de roza, cuya quema y tala de árboles serían luego continuadas por los plantadores azucareros ..."


http://www.jmarcano.com/mipais/cultura/deive.html

My 1st question is :

How the Africans get the Tainos techniques if they did not live with them (as slaves, marrons etc) ?

You can have a look at another Deive's book "El Indio, El Negro Y la Vida Tradicional Dominicana"

My 2nd question is :

How the Tainos were supposed to mix up with the spaniards in such proportions when they fear and hated them ?

- Jack D Forbes (native Indian/US) : "Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples"

http://www.amazon.com/Africans-Native-Americans-Evolution-Red-Black/dp/025206321X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320685984&sr=1-1 see specially p 189 (comparing mestizo against zambo group in spanish america)

- Esteban Mira Caballos (spanish) : "El indio antillano: Repartimiento, encomienda y esclavitud (1492-1542) "

The DR is a mixed country European / African / Taino, but the mestizo group ( being indeed the first result of mixing between Spanish/ Taino) has NEVER BEEN the first (in term of census) in the DR !





Edited on 11/7/2011 1:31 PM by Nehesy.
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#268 - Posted 7 November 2011, 1:39 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Bernard, check the thread title. Why are you going off-topic to Hijack threads?
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#269 - Posted 7 November 2011, 2:57 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Quote:
Nehesy previously said:


How the Africans get the Tainos techniques if they did not live with them (as slaves, marrons etc) ?



They did live with them, at least during the first stages of the maroon rebellions on this island. If you want more info about this, just check Fray Cipriano de Utrera's "Polémica de Enriquillo", and you'll see plenty of examples of Taino warchiefs such as Enriquillo, Tamayo, Hernandillo el tuerto and El Murcia allying themselves with African maroons like Lemba and Diego de Ocampo. There were also a lot of marriage unions between Amerindian females and African males during those rebellions.

Quote:
Nehesy previously said:


How the Tainos were supposed to mix up with the spaniards in such proportions when they fear and hated them ?



Maybe not the males, but the Amerindian females clearly showed a preferrence for the male Spaniard, a famous case being the one of Enriquillo's own wife, Mencia, which made him a cuckold with the encomendero lord of them both, Andres de Valenzuela. Surely you don't ignore the fact that, unlike Cuba and PR, Hispaniola didn't receive much inmigration from Euro females during its entire history on both sides now, do you? You only need to visit the database of the genetic testing company 23andMe to see that the Dominican customers there have Afro and Amerind maternal haplogroups on their majority to see this.
Edited on 11/7/2011 3:05 PM by Lautaro.
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#270 - Posted 7 November 2011, 3:55 PM
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RE: Dominicans Celebrating African Culture
Quote:
Nehesy previously said:

Carlos Esteban Deive (Dominican) said :

"...La temprana desaparición de los naturales de la Española fue también causa que su cultura, que a la llegada de los conquistadores atravesaba por una etapa neolítica, de cultivo intenso de la agricultura y producción de cerámica y materiales líticos, no pasara a integrarse por completo a la simbiosis operada más tarde con la cultura de otros grupos foráneos.

De la cultura taína restan muy pocos remanentes, y estos corresponden sobre todo a los aspectos materiales de la misma. Hay que advertir, por lo demás, que varios de esos aspectos perduraron a través del esclavo africano, quien los hizo suyos y los incorporó a sus costumbres y hábitos de trabajo...
Spanish came here in 1942 when the Taino population was hundreds of thousands; Africans came later, when they were almost extinct so no way that Africans lived and mingled with them more than Spanish. Of the Tainos left and the ones in the maroons encampments, we should assume that no all were women and that not all the women mixed with Africans therefore their offspring would had never outnumbered the mestizos.
Quote:
Nehesy previously said:
My 1st question is :
How the Africans get the Tainos techniques if they did not live with them (as slaves, marrons etc) ?
It was already answered by Lautaro, they lived and worked together as slaves and in the maroons encampments
Quote:
Nehesy previously said:

My 2nd question is :
How the Tainos were supposed to mix up with the spaniards in such proportions when they fear and hated them ?

The DR is a mixed country European / African / Taino, but the mestizo group ( being indeed the first result of mixing between Spanish/ Taino) has NEVER BEEN the first (in term of census) in the DR

Lyle N. McAlister in Spain and Portugal in the New World, 1492-1700 In 1503 the Queen ordered Ovando to arrange marriages between Spanish and Indians, to turn them into Christians and loyal Spanish subjects. Census records from 1514 reveal that 40% of Spanish men in the colony had Taíno wives. In 1528 married Spanish were preferred to fill the municipal offices and in 1538 the same preference was observed for new Indian encomiendas and all single Spanishs holding them should marry within 3 years under penalty of losing them. Those measures produced generations of legitimate mestizos, acknowledge as Spanish. The situation lasted until enough Spanish women came to America and sufficient Spanish brides became available. After that the miscegenation proceed after illegitimate unions and every Spanish from captain to peon have Indian mistresses and illegitimate mestizo offsprings.

On the other hand Spanish prejudice strongly discourage marriage with blacks, and the crown discouraged them on the ground that the vices of the black would corrupt the white. The same way, the crown adamantly opposed the union of blacks and Indians, fearing that the depraved black would corrupt the innocent Indians and spread political and religious subversion.


Of course those rules could never be totally enforced and we know the results. Anyway I think that your Zambo type ( African + whatever the native were ) was far more numerous than Mestizo type in South and Central America, but not in Santo Domingo or Haiti. -So what we have of Taino ancestry, culture, traditions and words the biggest probability is we got them directly from our Spanish-Indian ancestors and after, the African/Taino element was added later to the existing mix.
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