From: Dominican Republic, SPM
Gee Golly, I wonder who keeps them Poor!
Written by: joopjoop, 22 Dec 2007 12:37 PM
From: Dominican Republic, San Pedro de Macoris
Jeez
What a low-life publicity stunt.
DISCUSTING !!!!
And all that just to have his picture on the frontpage again .....
If he really had some good intentions (cojones),
he would go there by Publico/GuaGua from the Capital
(maybe than he would see the need to fix the roads)
Wear the same clothes as the rest of the family
Eat the same food that this family would eat if he is not there
Drink the same fluids and in the same conditions when he is not there
Shower cold (IF there is water) and just use a bucket and nature
Sleep there in the same poor house, in a same poor bed, under the same poor conditions
(complete with with the malaria/dengue mosquitos, WITHOUT all kind of medical threatment, that this poor family does not get as well
AND finally if after that day he get a cold, flu or ameba give him the same treatment as those poor people.
From: United States
i had held out hope that the president actually had some shred of decency, but i guess i will have to retract that hope. joopjoop refers to it as a lowlife publicity stunt, and i cannot top that. i told you before, he is not vaguely interested in effective governance, only in re-election. to stoop to such a transparent publicity stunt makes me wince in embarassment. Lord have mercy, Leonel: try to exhibit even a trace of dignity!! if you really are so intent on displaying solidarity with the poor, instead of setting up orchestrated photo ops and circus stunts, try to concentrate on initiatives which will lift them out of poverty, such as educating the nation!!!
Written by: Jander, 22 Dec 2007 1:46 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Maybe it sounds tacky what he is doing, but this article may not have been presented well.
I think that if it was my family that the president was eating dinner with, we would be honored, and what a better place for Leonel to listen to what the poor have to say.
Celebrities, politician as well as regular good people help the poor and devote time money and gifts during the holidays. What have you done lately?
It sounds like the ones making negative comments are out of touch with what is really happening here. The streets are safer amidst the most challenging times this country has ever seen.
As long as the church runs this country there will be overpopulation and too many mouths to feed. This is the case in all of Latin America.
It will take at least two more generations to change the thinking of these countries.
It’s time the Dominican people take responsibility for their children’s future.
Don't blame Leonel for the decades of bad governments and backwards thinking
From: Dominican Republic, SPM
It is a stunt! Honored,Pleaseee.
And please do blame Leonel. Was he not President before and what a diaster that was. Boyer was a better President!
Written by: josean, 22 Dec 2007 4:07 PM
From: United States
The family better count the silverware before he leaves!
Written by: Escott, 22 Dec 2007 7:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
I have a hard time understanding what Jander is trying to say. I live here and this place reeks from polititians and crooked police and even the judges. Take my word for it "Leonel" knows what the poor family has to say. He doesn't live such a sheltered life. He has taken money from the education system to put towards his metro while his children go to private school.
I would like to see ONE THING GOOD that he has done either term! I can't see it for the life of me. He is just as bad as Hippo was and as a very wise man once said "he is Hippo with Hair".
I didn't believe it at first but I certainly do now.
Written by: Jesus60, 22 Dec 2007 7:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic
That is a great idea of sharing food with the ones who cannot buy them. However. I would like that Mr. President, Leonel F., do that more often. Why no? Do they no spend much more in campaigh and some other things that I am not going to mantion.
Written by: Hatuey, 22 Dec 2007 7:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I agree with jander, many of you guys are out of touch. Leonel has done a lot for this country and more then you think. You cant blame him for problems that have been there before he was even a lawyer yet. Change takes time and it starts with the first step, and if you can provide a better solution on how to fix the poverty in this nation then say it, and say it loud so the whole population can hear you out. Because of him, there is increase of trade and somewhat of a better economic stabilty and much more then when Hippo was president...
continued....
Written by: Hatuey, 22 Dec 2007 7:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic
...The closet economic stablity by far since Trujillo. Granted yes there is poverity, just like any nation in this world. But you cant tarnish the man for trying to make things better. Because in the end if this man is the "worst" president like you say he is then, I am sad to inform you that the past presidents were any better. Unless you want to pull a vodoo dance and pull trujillos soul from the grave and have him re incarnted into someone alse. Because of after all the nation was at its peak of success under his adminstration. And then I would like to see how many of you would be complaining, but oh wait, non of you would be complaing because you would of been dead. SHUCKS latin american politics, cant get enough of it :-)
Written by: Escott, 22 Dec 2007 9:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
I am going to vote for a guy that is hardly ever mentioned.
Candelier
From: United States
I'm so glad u cynical people are not the majority of dominicans. Like it or not, the country IS better than what it was before; he IS the best choice for the country; he will be re-elcted (by the way, just because candalier rules with an iron fist, doesn't mean he can run a country; improve it's economics, trade, infrastructure, etc.) I've said it before, ustedes siempre le buscan la quinta pata al gato... you back up all the bad knews and discard and disbelieve all the good news relating to the gov. If he were to eat with rich people, i'm sure u would all criticize him, now he's eating with the poor and of course...regardless u r all coming up with you cynical comments.
Why don't you guys run for president?...clearly you think you can do a better job...making things sound so easy and swearing you know exactly how to fix all of the DR's problems while blaming one president for centuries of poverty and corruption.
Written by: Escott, 23 Dec 2007 9:08 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
Tell me in what way the country is better? Do you know how much a plantano costs today?
If you rule with an iron fist (yes that is why I am voting for him) you may have law and order here again and YES I think that would be GOOD for business, improve economics (you think companies will invest here when they get HELD UP just about at gunpoint by Truckers?
I wanted him to be elected just so you know. I waited while things got terrible here, prices went out of control (I figured that things had to get worse before better) and waited and waited for things to turn around.
This bum builds a Metro and takes what little money in education away to put it towards the Metro and for what, for his Legacy is what. Do I think a Metro could be a good idea for the capital? Of course it could and would be needed if the rest of the country wasn't in such bad shape and we actually HAD THE MONEY.
I could go on and on. Such as leases on government owned buildings at stupid low prices to
Written by: Escott, 23 Dec 2007 9:14 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
supporters of the government such as Helados Bon. I know the owners are supporters and I read this information here. Yes I comment on this stuff because others don't. This terrible way of running a country should be brought to the forefront so people know exactly what they are dealing with and not think like you propose that he is the best thing to happen to the Republic after canned food because he isn't.
We are more in debt than we were under Hippo. Prices are so far out of control now and were better under Hippo. Is Leonel more educated than hippo? Yes but to no good for the people of this country.
No problem Dominicans will burn a few tires and reelect the bum which I agree with you on that point. He is handing out food to pour people in an area that supports him. Makes plenty of sense to me. We have thousands of displaced people from the storms but they wont have food on the table if they live in an area that doesn't support him.
Written by: josean, 23 Dec 2007 9:39 AM
From: United States
Mr. Fernandez's Christmas message to the Dominican people:
My fellow Dominicans, the fact that you and millions of others can not even afford to buy Christmas eve dinner is insignificant.
So what if your stomachs are empty, so what if the hospitals have no medicine, so what if your children have no desks or books, so what if interests rates are at usury levels, so what if your being taxed to death, so what if your wages are not enough to buy at least one meal per day, so what if you pay the highest rates for nonexistent electricity and phone service in LA, so what if you pay $5.00 plus per gallon of gas, DAMMIT I AM TELLING YOU THINGS ARE BETTER!
You ungrateful, cynical dumb peasants, don't you understand priorities come first like the METRO(and maybe an Artificial Island if you are stupid enough, I mean sophisticated enough to reelect me) not Human Beings.
THINGS ARE BETTER DAMMIT! Are you going to believe me or your Lying Eyes, Coño!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Dominican Republic, SPM
Hey Fernadez: where's the Cake.
Written by: jeff2008, 23 Dec 2007 12:13 PM
From: United States
here we go again. one of you guys asked how much does a platano cost. first of all why does the platano cost whatever it cost? do some research am sure is not because leonel fault. when pld is in power people critizes when prd is in power the same story. many people here only thinks about la comida, i know that we need to eat food to survive, but saying not to build the metro cause there are ppl who dont have anything to eat its just stupid. what are you guys trying to blame leonel for, signing free trades deal, modernizing the country???? if ppl keep thinking that way, food, food and nothing but food then the country will never grow economically.
From: United States
no Jeff, nobody is saying he should not build the metro because people have no food to eat. we are saying that he should not have built the metro, period. this country simply does not have the economic and technological base to build a subway system. i laugh when dominicans in new york ride the subway and think we can do one here too. i am through trying to explain to readers why it will not prove to be a good idea. just wait till it needs repairs, then you will understand what some of us are saying.
From: United States
1-prices were better under hippo bc the peso was worth crap...while the US dollar/euro remained relatively the same, dominicans in the US sent the same amount but now translated to more pesos...this together with the incredible amount of drugs and dirty money floating around; there was more money in ppls pocket...but this is no way for a country to grow and history has proven this.
2-Again, it takes more than being a corrupt, iron fist, dictator type for pres. to progress. It's not just about controlling crime (which, by the way, has decreased); it's about negotiating with countries, building cyber parks, attracting investments, etc.
3-dominicans spend 15% of their income on transportation; only second to food (more than their housing which is 10%) ; a metro would help reduce this large expense. And although it only benefits the capital...out of 9m ppl, 3m are in the capital alone.
From: United States
4-we do not produce petroleum and cannot control the prices offered to the rest of the world (only mitigate these effects, which the gov. HAS)
5. no other gov has built/created more schools, jobs, hospitals, roads, aqueducts, etc. in such a short period of time.
6. In dollar amounts, yes, we are more in debt than hippo's time but a lot of that money is paying for the disaster that hippo did in his gov. And in percentage to the gdp, we are in LESS debt than b4 bc of how much the economy has grown in proportion to this. besides, debt is not bad (US has the biggest debt in the world) so long as it's used for good purposes. It's like college students having debts bc of student loans...but it's for a good purpose and turns out to be for the best (for their future).
6-interest rates have lowered bc of his admin and he has attracted a lot of investments that have created thousands of jobs
7-the artificial island was cancelled but either way, this was a private investment
Written by: josean, 23 Dec 2007 2:04 PM
From: United States
This is on Joaquín Antonio Balaguer Ricardo:
During his years as President, Balaguer ordered the construction of schools, hospitals, dams, roads, and many important buildings. No doubt he made an important contribution, but at the same time he neglected (even intentionally) the people's education and public health.
However, he continued with massive infrastructure projects, such as the construction of highways, bridges, schools, housing projects and hospitals. Following the style of Trujillo, these highly visible projects were very publicized over government-controlled media and through grandiose public ceremonies designed to enhance Balaguer's popularity. The projects were also used as a means to reward his political supporters with lucrative public works contracts.
Once completed, much of this infrastructure would go unmaintained or unsupported. Schools without teachers or books, and hospitals without doctors or medicines, were commonplace.
From: United States
Mayimbe, help me here , please. clrify a few things for me, if you will.
1. quote me a statistic which shows reduction in crime. when you have done that, elucidate whether it is street crime, white collar crime, moneylaundering, or whatever,
2. please explain to me how the metro will reduce the personal expenditure of dominicans on transportation
you asster that the government has spent more on schools in a shorter time than any other. actually, they spend no more of GDP on education than the Hippo gang did. last year they spent 1.2%, by far the least in the caribbean, except for haiti. and every year the indices of performance weaken. so we are throwing good money after bad
and please, you cannot equate the US debt with the debt here .on of the main reasons why the USA can maintain a 9.3 trillion dollar debt is because the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, and all petroleum purchases are made in dollars. i wont elaborate further.
Written by: josean, 23 Dec 2007 2:08 PM
From: United States
Continued:
For the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus' landing in the Americas and the visit of Pope John Paul II, Balaguer spent millions on a restoration of parts of historic, colonial Santo Domingo, and on sprucing up the parts of the City to be transversed by the Pope, including the construction of a grand new avenue lined with modern housing blocks.
Faro a Colón
More controversial was that Balaguer spent two hundred million US Dollars on the construction of a massive ten-story Columbus Lighthouse. Completed in 1992, the Columbus Lighthouse was designed to beam the image of a Christian cross into the night sky and to be visible for tens of miles. Since completion, the Columbus Lighthouse, which supposely houses Columbus' remains,[1][2] has been a minor tourist attraction. Its light has almost never been used due to extremely high energy costs and frequent blackouts in the country.
Now this is the model that Mr. Fernandez is following.
Written by: josean, 23 Dec 2007 2:12 PM
From: United States
From: United States
There's no way in hell you can compare el Faro al Colon to a metro...the faro does nothing for the public...it only sits there; I too would be opposed to a gov. run project like that. A metro does serve a public need...and for many decades to come. PERIOD.
There are many statistics that show a reduction in crime...even dominicantoday reports many articles every now and then stating this. I wont bother looking bc you wont believe it anyway (la quinta pata). Just like stats on less unemployment, more ecomic growth, more investments, etc. etc.
I forgot to mention before, taxes are GOOD for a country to progress. You cannot ask the gov and not give.
Again, just run for president since you guys make it seem so easy! I doubt you can have the country grow in so many important sector than the current gov has.
From: United States
The metro (when completed with all the other lines) will reduce transportation since people can transfer from train to train w/o paying another fee (as opposed to several carros publicos).
More importantly however is the fact that the country wont have to buy as much petroleum.
Written by: Escott, 24 Dec 2007 6:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
All you guys from the US support the Metro even though they took money out of the Education system to build it? Have we already given up on the next generation?
No where else in the world would a subway system begin with so little thought and planning. You think they actually did studies?
From: United States
Mayimbe, you used some really disingenuous analysis to glorify the metro. you stated that you will concede that it only serves 3 million people. that is slick, but spurious. i guess you quote the figure of 3 million, since Santo Domingo has 3 million inhabitants. actually, Mayimbe, the metro serves only the people that can fit in it. if the daily ridership is 100,000, then that is what it serves. when all the seats are taken, the other people will still have to ride other means of transportation. not to mention that not all the people riding it live nearby, so they will still need transportation to get to it. add to that the fact that it is one line going north to south, it does not help the traveller who wants to travel east to west. and you say that with the metro, we will need to buy less petroleum. the metro will run on electricity, but what do you think generates the electricity...derivatives of petroleum, thats what. you cannot make a sane argument for a crazy idea, so stop it!!!
Written by: Escott, 24 Dec 2007 9:43 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
I think the Metro is a sane idea.
It needs to be well thought out, it needs proper planning and research so it isn't a hazard to the people who use it and of course proper funding that doesn't take away from more important issues such as health and education.
If these items are considered I think it is a brilliant idea.
Written by: Jander, 24 Dec 2007 10:42 AM
From: Dominican Republic
This went from Christmas dinner to the Metro, which is controversial but just sit in a traffic jam and one would wish that thse public cars were off the street.
Here is the answer it will take 20 years or more but no time like the present to start.
China.org.cn: Although the Population and Family Planning Law was formally implemented on September 1, family planning has actually been practiced as a basic policy of the nation for more than 20 years, proving highly effective. What was the central government’s original intention in creating such a law?
From: United States
my observations on the metro... firstly, i am not sure that they are telling the truth about daily ridership. metro will have 9 miles of line, and they say it will carry 200,000 per day. the san francisco subway system has 104 miles of line, 7 different lines, and only carries 249,000 per day.
2..there is no way that box-fare revenues can possibly cover operating costs, plus the service on the construction bonds. therefore, it will have to be subsidised. the treasury will have to take money from other pressing needs to subsidise an infinitesimal portion of the population
3 this great reduction we will see in traffic on the streets is questionable. the los angeles subway system only manages to cut down on vehicular traffic by 2.9% at peak hour!
nobody has addressed the maintenance issues. the washington,dc system had problems with the doors, laying up cars for 6 months at a time. and we are talking about experienced engineers with years of service. they are going to have to
From: United States
import technicians to keep this thing operating, at exhorbitant salaries. no disrespect intended, but leaving the maintenance of this type of equipment to novices is not a great idea
finally, the electricity requirements are going to be formidable. dedicated stations and substations will have to be built. this is a massive undertaking. maybe that is why the much maligned HIPOLITO rejected the idea when it was suggested by Brazil's president, Lula Da Silva. but Leonel fell for it, hook,line and sinker. maybe hippo is smarter from an economic standpoint.
From: United States
Mayimbe, when i read statistics such as 7% growth in GDP, it means nothing to me. i want to see what areas the growth is in. for example, last year there was a 6.9% growth in GDP, but they failed to say that 2% of this growth was attributed to the sale of cellphones. also, i dont know how much of this is in defensive spending. if there is a massive upswing in negative societal issues, such as drug abuse, there will be a corresponding increase of spending to combat the problem. so the GDP will rise, but the society is no better off, unless the problem is abated to a consonant degree. and as to the constant reference to the foibles of hipolito.. i am not defending the guy, but,reflexively, everyone blames him for the Baninter collapse. Baninter had been keeping two sets of books for 14 years, unbeknownst to bank inspectors. so it was collapsing during the first reign of Leonel! where i blame hippo, if he can be blamed, is his decision to bail out the biggest depositors.
From: United States
75% of the money lost was held by 80, yes 80, depositors. with no deposit insurance, the government should have apportioned the loss in a fair manner, knowing the consequences of a total bailout. but he cannot be blamed for the scheme to defraud the bank, even if he was one of the guys in on it. it was going on way before his time.
Written by: Jander, 24 Dec 2007 12:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic
dreadlocks you make some very good points.
I am a Californian, and LA is not a good example of how well a Metro system will do.
"Nobody walks in LA"
There just isn't room in the Capital to build any more bypasses over passes and tunnels.
The only place to go is under or over with a rail system.
The major use of public transporation is for the public to get back and forth to work and by giving them another option will surely improve the current situation.
I think it is better to embrace the decision and support it.
"Ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what can you do for your country."
Written by: cpone, 26 Dec 2007 5:52 PM
From: United States
Damn you guys are HARSH on Leonel man.
The country is in better conditions then it has ever been before. WTF?
I guess as the saying goes: "You can't satisfy everyone."
What is the difference with this and say a politician going and helping out in a Soup kitchen for a day? You guys make it seem like Leonel didn't have humble beginnings.
Written by: cpone, 26 Dec 2007 5:56 PM
From: United States
To Dredlocks..
Please I implore you to look at your facts before SPEAKING, you sound ridiculous.
San Francisco has a population of 700 thousand
Santo Domingo has a population of 2.2 million! Most of those being people that don't have modes of transportation OTHER THAN public bus or motorcycles.
THINK MAN THINK!
Those estimates of the metro seem LOW considering the density of population!
And yes having a train line will save TONS of petrol man. WTF?
You telling me that having people pile into a train 1,000 at a time is going to consume more petrol then having those same 1,000 people into what 30 city buses?
Critical thinking brother. Try it some time.
Sheesh...
Written by: lcabrera, 26 Dec 2007 9:10 PM
From: United States
I wonder what he wants to people think about him by doing this..... and wonder how many lies he'll tell to that family.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Like it or not, the metro has been imposed on us. Huge loans have been taken out b/c of it. Funds diverted from more critical areas to help its completion, and probably its maintenance. The metro is not a priority, it's an example of a vision of progress. Beyond the supposed benefits, the problem I have w/ the metro is the process of discussion and lack of debate about alternatives; no one can debate that there was/is also lack of transparency in its contract process, environmental impact, and how exactly this will be financed going forward. Lastly, and this is a key point, no one can deny that the costs are much more than supposed.
Given these Abuses, the only thing I have to say is, NO MORE! I demand a stop to this Paternalistic approach to governing and demand to be included in the decisionmaking process. People know what's best for them, and MUST be included in policy discussion.
Show me a party that is willing to include the public, and that's the party I'm voting for.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Well, the party also has to be pro-poor, pro-environment, pro-human rights, pro-public sphere (edu., health, parks, housing, and so), pro-progressive tax structures that tax the rich, businesses and imports appropriately.
In essence I'm for an inclusive party that has a progressive political agenda, and is not afraid of breaking with the elites and investing in bridging the gap between the rich and the poor. The PLD, PRD, and PRSC do not meet these requirements, so we must either force them to do so, or look to another party.
Go to the following articles for more insight & discussion:
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....n-the-2008-Dominican-Presidentialhttp://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....stitutions-and-Dominican-Politicshttp://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....omingo-not-Paris-not-even-La-VegaWritten by: Escott, 27 Dec 2007 6:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
You must be wealthy. You sound exactly like a Democrat. What do the initials stand for?
I think you are referring to Communism and look what a success that was!
I think people get taxed proportionately. 16% sales tax on everything. More you spend the more tax is collected from you.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Dec 2007 7:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Some european countries (the Scandinavian ones) cover baldoria's criteria to a certain extent, mr. Escott, and they're not necessarily communist. They cover it specially on the women's rights department.
Written by: Escott, 27 Dec 2007 7:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
Please name one country that does exactly what he asks for and wants. Show me one that is even close and I will buy you a Cupey Doll.
Besides he scares me. I want to be rich one day without being taxed back to poor!
You also have no idea how difficult it is here to be successful in business. It is an uphill climb all the way with obstacles everywhere you turn.
And if you don't think IMPORTS are taxed to death check out what it costs to buy a Toyota Camray here that cost 17,300 US dollars in the States. BTW it is imported into the States from Japan.
Ludicrious is what it is and his platform I would vote against every day of the week.
Written by: DaniDr, 27 Dec 2007 8:39 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I don't mind paying taxes. What bother's me is that they're not spent correctly.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
I respect your disagreement with my platform. But at least I propose a platform, which is more than any of us can say about any political party. And I encourage you to vote for/against my platform, as long as you vote. Actually, I encourage you to propose your own ideas. THIS IS WHAT I WANT, AN INCLUSIVE SYSTEM WHERE PEOPLE CAN CONTRIBUTE THEIR VOICE.
Escott, I'm not proposing communism, which implies central planning. Also, just because you can't think of any countries that are close to the type of system I am proposing, it doesn't mean they are not out there; and even if there are none, we can still fight for a fairer society. What's so scary about change? Is what we have now so great for the vast majority? It is for the elites, who are terrified of change and try to scare the rest of us into believing that change is a buggy man. It is not. Change is our only hope!!!
I want you and everyone, to enjoy more than just basic needs, without having to become rich to do so.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
BTW - I'm not rich. I'm a "starving" academic screaming to see if we can organize and rally to get the political class aware that we the people are sick and tired of business as usual. That we are not looking for handouts, but rather demanding the fulfillments of our political, economic, and social rights. And that we are willing to work and to build a fairer society.
WE WANT TO BE INCLUDED. We will no longer accept being shut out while our fates are determined by the political and social elites. We want an effective voice in the decision making process. I know what's best for me. I can tell the "experts" whether something will benefit me or not. I can provide input into policies.
These ideas are very scary to the rich and those who benefit from the status quo. But there are more of us "struggling" than there are of them. I'm not calling for equality, just the end of misery, hunger, exclusion. Include us in politics, we can't do any worse than the politicians, we can only do b
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Dec 2007 8:23 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
If you think that Finland and Sweden follow the US model, mr. Escott, then I have to tell you that you're sorely mistaken. There, you have it, I named not one, but two countries that have some sort of balanced state (neither too corporativist, nor too socialist). Satisfied?
Written by: Escott, 28 Dec 2007 8:40 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
Mr. Lautaro,
I don't agree that Finland and Sweden follow what Mr Baldoria proposes.
Mr. Baldoria,
Still wondering what MTS stands for. I love Cabrera.
Taxing the wealthy is not the answer. Raising duties is also not the anwer.
Only thing that will bring this country forward is education. Without advancing the education system here you may as well bomb this stupid country back to the DARK AGES!
The people of age to vote in this country are beyond redemption. It is the children you need to invest in. Pounding this country into debt is just robbing those children of their future before they even have a chance.
I will probably vote for Candelier even though he stands not one chance in hell of being elected because I believe he is the best choice of what is offered. He will satisfy one thing and that would be to make this country CIVILIZED which it isn't. Every day in the streets I see things that curl my toenails. We do need change!
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Dec 2007 10:20 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
MTS stands for Maria Trinidad Sanchez, which is the province where Cabrera is located (not to be confounded with Loma de Cabrera, which is in Dajabon). My reasons for giving them that criteria, mr. Escott, are: 1- In the human rights department, although there are have been signs of the wave of xenophobia that is currently affecting Europe (specially with the arab inmigrant population), they're a leading force on the gender equality department (both sexes have an equal footing on the labour market), 2- They're pro-poor because the state in both countries delivers public services (housing, education, etc.) on an efficient manner and 3- Their tax systems, although some of the most heavy on Europe, are progressive ones in nature. If you don't believe, then check out the Human Development Index of the last decade and see for yourself.
From: United States
well, Cpone, i see you are back to your old tricks, attacking me with half baked analysis and sounding doctrinaire as usual. lets examine some realities about subway ridership. los angeles has a far larger population than santo domingo does, and the subway is twice as long. yet it carries only 133,000 daily. there is, MR CRITICAL THINKER, a difference in the way cities are laid out! if you look at the new york subway system, all the lines pass through manhattan at some point. new york is a city with a focal epicenter, what with the businesses, universities, and the arts and theatre districts. millions of workers, financial operations, exporter-importer and other types of commerce are all huddled together in small areas of extreme TEMPORARY density!! the downtown rush hour reveals crammed cars going from the outer boroughs in the morning, with half empty cars going uptown. the ridership pattern reverses in the evening, with loaded uptown trains and empty trains going downtown.
From: United States
secondly, the population areas served by the new york subway system are all dense pack areas, what with the bronx, queens , brooklyn and manhattan. the lower unemployment rate of new york city in relationship to the city of santo domingo means that a larger portion of the population is dependent upon the trains as a means to get to work. santo domingo is more like los angeles in aspect; it is a large, sprawling metropolis, with several points of focus. that is why the LA subway , which is 14 miles long, only carries 133,000 persons per day. surely you are not asserting that the population of santo domingo is larger than that of los angeles!! so you see, Cpone, merely quoting numbers means nothing; you have to apply them to facts on the ground. that is called, i believe, CRITICAL THINKING!!
From: United States
there we go with another flat tax proposal , this time from from Escott. 16% consumption tax, as embraced by Cpone in his postings some weeks ago. that is not proportional; it is extremely regressive. it applies to all goods and services, whether you are rich or poor. when a millionaire pays 16% consumption tax on a bag of rice, it does not affect him in the same proportion as when a washerwoman does it. secondly, the tax rate has to be a figure which will realise the same revenues lost by abandoning the other taxes. to arbitrarily state 16% does not mean anything, because if 16% cannot finance the budget, the government will have to issue yet another set of bonds, incurring further debt. if it needs a 30% rate, try to imagine the black market which will arise. the tax collection methods are innefective and antiquated as they stand; try to imagine this government collecting a consumption tax.
From: United States
and finally, for now, Cpone, you analyse the metro as if the entire time it is in operation is a rush hour. i concede that in off peak times the trains operate with less frequency. but they still run; the air conditioners alone on each car weigh 20 tons. it takes massive amounts of petroleum derived electricity to run them, provide air conditioning, fans, lighting, to operate sump pumps in case of flooding, and all the other associated costs. you cannot tell me that they will burn less fuel than the fewer public cars operating in off peak hours. and, as i said before, the los angeles subway, because of the layout of the city, only realised a reduction of 2.9% in vehicular traffic during peak hour!
Written by: cpone, 28 Dec 2007 3:01 PM
From: United States
Make up your mind, are you analyzing san francisco or Los Angeles as compared to DR?
You are now moving the bar.
First of all Santo Domingo is a wide city with many points of possible work HOWEVER Los Angeles is so poorly designed as a city in terms of its urban sprawl that the train system is not practical for something that can easily drive in the same time if not faster then the damned train takes.
Again a very piss poor analysis.
ESPECIALLY since the DR system is only going to expand even further, creating what could very possibly be the future of transportation for a generation of people that are already used to riding subways from their time in NYC, where most Dominicans flock to after leaving the Country.
The Subway is an excellent idea, and will serve many more people than any of you give it credit for. Its a MUCH better alternative to the bus. THE PROBLEM will be keeping it safe, should be interesting to see.
Written by: cpone, 28 Dec 2007 3:03 PM
From: United States
Its as though you are fearful of change, most people are its understandable, seeing something different and looking for the negative immediately is human nature for some, but where you LACK the vision, others don't. THANK GOD for that. Otherwise DR would still be a nation where its main GDP contributor is agriculture and Sugar Cane.
Written by: cpone, 28 Dec 2007 3:08 PM
From: United States
You have to truly be a fool to think that somehow a 16% or rather as is proposed a 23% flat tax would have more impact on a poor person than on one that is rich.
If I am rich and I spend annually say, 1 million on goods that I buy.
That is 230 THOUSAND dollars that I have to pay for my taxes, if I am a person that makes say 40K per year and spend 23% of my income on goods I spend 9200 dollars on taxes, which if you add in, NY sales taxes, NY STATE income taxes, NY LOCAL income taxes, FEDERAL income taxes, Social Security, you come FAR above that 9200 figure. Not to mention that you now actually get to KEEP more of your income UPFRONT, to SPEND or do with it as you wish.
I implore you once again, before you continue to sound like a complete idiot on the matter to read fairtax.org if you are as strapped for cash as you stated before, OR if you have some pennies to spare, by the book by Boortz.
Its bad to see someone talking out the side of their rear....
Written by: cpone, 28 Dec 2007 3:13 PM
From: United States
Once again you are INCORRECT!
Trains that are being used in DR are electric based, if you run them LESS frequently you run LESS ENERGY, no matter WHAT the train is doing its consuming the same amount of energy, because the 3rd rail is the same constant flow of energy that is needed to operate the train, you can add all the airconditioners you WANT to your little equation, the electricity running on the 3rd rail where the power comes from is the same voltage.
Again something else you comment on that you don't have a freaking CLUE about.
How you equate in your mind, that sitting in traffic day in and day out with a bus running is somehow better FUEL efficient than a train carrying thousands of people daily is BEYOND ME. Even the eco freaks would slap you for saying something as ridiculous as that.
You cannot once again compare LOS ANGELES (that you want to know after using San Fran) to DR. Unless you have a crystal ball sit back and enjoy the metro.
From: United States
Hey if I can use my NYC Metro card in DR......than that would be the one and only great achievement created by the Presidente. I'am going to hold on to my Metro Cards, I bet they might work in the Metro in DR if I bend them just the right way.
From: United States
Just a few points.
1-The budget for the metro in 2008 will be less than 4% of the entire budget (12B pesos); this is much less than the gas and electric subsidies for 2008 (26B pesos; this is more than the entire cost of the 1st line of the metro). Think about that last fact and think about the fact that these costs are higher than they will be in the future (w/o taking inflation into acct) bc it's a new project. Also, this is a project that will benefit users for yrs.
2-In San Francisco, people do not crowd un in small public cars and the amount of ppl with their own cars is superior to that of ppl in the capital (only 2 out of every 10 ppl). Also, relative to what people make in the DR, gas prices for their vehicles take up a much larger share than those in SF and many other cities. This is a huge incentive to take public transportation.
From: United States
cont'd
3-the metro will have 3 generators including it's own park with 32MW worth of electricity. Either one can have the metro work solely. The reason why it's electric source is separate from the public is bc the cost of generating electricity individually is much more expensive so its much more economic to contract a generator and use the electricity in high volumes.
Written by: cpone, 28 Dec 2007 5:16 PM
From: United States
And Mayimbe provided the checkmate.
Thank you!
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
You all bring up excellent points. Sto Dgo resembles more LA than SF or NY. It is a sprawling city, NOT pedestrian-friendly, focused on cars, w/ many focal points. So we should expect to see similar problems. You guys can debate whether the metro is good for the country or not, but no one can deny that it was done in an ill-transparent way. I hope, whether it succeeds or fails, we don't forget the lack of public dialog, the lack of transparency, and the gross UNDER-ESTIMATION of the costs.
Having a vision of progress is fine, but what if that vision is contrary to the public's needs? Look at Brasilia, a work of art from a planner's point of view, but the least functional big city in all Brazil. Why? b/c planners never bothered to consult the people what they wanted, how they interacted with their space. I'm afraid LF is the same way, too arrogant to ask what people want.
So, what will you say if the metro fails to meet your expectations, or costs are higher than predicted?
From: United States
Cpone, i see that santa claus did not bring you any civility in your christmas basket. you remain a picture of incivility and ignorance with whom i would rather not exchange ideas, but , just the same, i recommend that you read an economics textbook before you lecture to me on regressive taxation. i do not know what your qualifications to discuss the subjects are, but , as a person with a masters degree in economics and a diploma from the world bank institute in development economics, i do not waste time exchanging unpleasantries with people of malnourished intellects who see themselves as the fountainhead of all knowledge, and others as the targets of ad hominems and one line bon mots.making a point is not enhanced by insulting people with whose viewpoints youy disagree. there are numerous posters in this forum who disagree with each other, but, because they are well-bred, they keep the discourse civil and try to learn something. you dont see people like Ed Acosta, a man preparing
From: United States
his doctoral dissertation, engaging with sophomoric exchanges of insults with anyone. take a look around you, and see how it is supposed to be done. we all reserve the right to disagree, but this is an intellectual exchange, not some superbowl event wherein you achieve status by scoring points. whatever assertations i make in this forum are well thought out, and if i dont know something, i ask for assistance. you,on the other hand, make indefensible contentions, then call people fools if they dare to disagree with you. if you think that the metro is a good idea, so be it. i am not bound by duty to agree with you. my insight says that the cost benefit analysis weighs too heavily on costs. and to say that it runs on electricity means nothing, because the electricity is generated by petroleum.
From: United States
tO baldoria.. no amount of logic is going to convince these metro supporters that it is a bad idea. they think that every city is the same and if it works in one, it can work in another. nobody seems to look at the concept of COVERAGE AREA. because of the layout of the city, the railroad system has very limited coverage area. i am reminded by one of our posters that SANTO DOMINGO is a city of 2.2 million. we know that... what is critical is the amount of people who live within practical access to the train. if people have to take public transportation to get to the subway, i dont see the point. the benefit of the new york subway is obvious, because it largely serves to ferry people to the economic hub of the world. these are people, who, in turn, generate high levels of productivity. there is no such thinking in the metro, as it is a countermeasure to reduce congestion on the city streets. as i pointed out before, it only achieved a 2.9% reduction in los angeles, a city of similar
From: United States
configuration. and mayimbe seems to forget the amount of money which will have to be expended to subsidise the operation. as i said before, there is no way that the fare box receipts can cover operating costs and construction bond debt service. that money has to come from somewhere, and the education budget seems to be the target in most cases. in all development projects, the first thing that has to be done is the feasibility study. once that has been accomplished, a cost benefit analysis has to be undertaken, with either the costs or the benefits weighted to arrive at the objective. if there is too much emphasis placed on weighting the benefits in favor of the objective, the project should be reconsidered. the only argument that supporters of the metro can realistically offer is the probable reduction in vehicular traffic at peak hour. we have to wonder if the externalities do not outweigh that benefit, if it does eventuate!
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Here here, dreadlocks (Mike). I agree with your philosophy on the posts. We need to engage in civil exchanges, as people taking time to post are interested, I hope, in the advancement of the DR, not "fist-fight" of words.
With that said, I would like to ask supporters of the metro two questions:
1. Were there any mistakes in the discussion and planning phases of the metro?
2. What will indicate to you the success and failure of the metro? Knowing that the these results may take years to be seen. So lets say within the next 5 years.
What I'm trying to understand is if avid supporters of the metro are able to see any problems with LF's methods and at least consider the possibility of failure. LF has many wonderful achievements, but also many tragic failures: Harley Motorcycles; the Brazilian Airplane; the Dam in Santiago... In both his successes and failures, LF's M.O. is consistently one of arrogance. No discussion, no explanation, no alternatives.
From: United States
Yes , Baldoria, you are right. i should not allow my emotions to run amok to the degree that i respond to unevolved behavior in kind. the discourse has to be maintained at a more civilised level if we are going to learn anything from each other. this is not some frat-boy foodfight, and we are not trying to score points nor CHECK-MATES!!! this is intended to be civilised interaction between people of good pedigree, not internet hooligans. as to the subject of the metro, we can look to san juan as an example of what can go wrong. even with the full might of the united states behind it, the final cost for the 10 miles was 2.25 billion dollars. san juan has a far higher vehicle density than we do here, and the construction was intended to reduce congestion. the projected ridership was 80,000 per day, with 110,000 in 2010. yet, even when they were giving the service away for FREE, the highest they ever got to was 40,000. it is currently down to 24,000. so much for projections!! what
From: United States
people have to realise is that in order to reduce some of the excess traffic, people who use cars to traverse the city will have to leave their cars at home and ride the metro. i fully realise that there are people who use the public cars to go to their destinations, but , once again, because the city is not very nuclear, but sprawling, the positive effect is reduced. it is not like new york, wih millions heading into the center of the city to work. people within the coverage area disperse in all directions to go to work. if,for example, 200,000 people live within practical access, which means they can walk to the train, those 200,000 people scatter 360 degrees to their destinations, since the city has no focal epicenter. so ,unless serious demographic studies are undertaken, and we can bet they were not, we could end up with optimistic projections which do not pan out in reality
Written by: Escott, 29 Dec 2007 3:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
I guess I will stop replying. I am not sure my pedigree or my big words are up to the level of the others here.
When ever I see someone trying to use words to impress people I am always thinking about "If you can't impress them with your intellect baffle em with your BS".
I am just a simple guy trying to understand but I do care about this place and I do live here unlike many others who seem to have all the answers.
My biggest problem with Mr Dreadlocks is that he thinks everything should be done in what he considers the most intelligent way and not taking into consideration how screwed up this country is.
Mr Dreadlocks, this is the only country that can screw up a "Wet Dream". Thats right, take something that should be good and FUBAR it to death so things really have to be looked at differently than a textbook.
I have an advantage over the intellectuals that post here. I am a business man and I think more clearly and don't need a vote to do what is right..
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
don't stop your posts escott. Help us understand your points. NO one is completely right or wrong. The world doesn't work that way. so help us come up with a plan, by intriducing your points.
And, yes sometimes we get frustrated, but I hope we don't give in and give up civility or an open mind.
From: United States
Escott, i have no problem with your posts, and i dont recall you ever gratuitously insulting me, or vice versa. we may have a difference of opinion on certain issues, but we have managed to keep it civil. i agree with your assertion that things are not done normally here, and the best laid plans of mice and men will usually go awry. but i also think it demeans dominicans when foreigners offer solutions which are counterintuitive to sane thinking: it seems as though we feel that they are not worthy of receiving good counsel like the rest of the world, and should only be offered backhanded advice. the fact that the political classes are beneath contempt does not mean that we should hold to one set of strategies for ourselves, and another set of less conventional ideas for dominicans. as to your reference to my literary style; i assure you it is not intended to baffle anybody, least of all with bs. that is a product of my formative education, for which i will not apologise
Written by: Escott, 30 Dec 2007 9:48 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
"this is intended to be civilised interaction between people of good pedigree"
Mr Dreadlocks,
This particular piece I had a hard time with. Hence my reaction. I am not an elite type of person.
From: United States
Escott, being of good pedigree does not necessarily mean that you have to be from an elite family; it simply means that one knows how to conduct one's self in a civilised manner. it is intended, in this case, to be a colloquiallism, not a literary definition. the great majority of posters display this pedigree to which i refer; it isn't a question of bloodline, but of comportment. i myself am of humble bearing, and at no time have i ever aspired to becoming any type of aristocrat. i guess i had become a little put off by the antics of one of our posting community, whose style is a little unsavory, and i got a bit angry. to those whom i offended, or worse, bored, i offer my sincere apologies. as to your earlier comment that i think things should be done in an intelligent way. you are a businessman, and i have to assume that you are good at what you do. are you telling me that if a poster identifies himself as a dominican, and singles you out for advice, you are going to give him some
From: United States
counterproductive suggestions, because he is dominican and will screw it up anyway? to me that sounds like saying there is no point in casting your pearls before swine!!! for a guy who disavows elitism, dont you think it is a little disingenuous of you to suggest that i am elitist, because of an unfortunate turn of phrase, yet you are willing to dismiss a whole country of people as being beyond good advice? my take on this issue is very elementary; we all know that the politicians are beyond the fronteirs of any corrective measures. however, as one poster said, forget gangrene; it is already dead. consider the living possibilities. we might not know them personally, but there are readers who benefit from our offerings in this column, just as we all benefit from each other. hey,Escott, what if you gave some sage advice in one of your posts, and some bright young turk latched on to it? what if he somehow managed to get selected for some sensitive and meaningful post in government?
From: United States
and what if this guy used one of your bright ideas to initiate a very successful , beneficial program? it can happen; don't laugh! so even though we can write off the present crop of apes, we have to look to the future, and do the best to prepare those who look to us for even the slightest bit of advice.
From: United States
as much as i hate to prolong this meaningless little exchange with Cpone, let me take the time to educate him on the meaning of a regressive tax. a regressive tax is one which has a greater negative effect on the poorer segment of the population than it does on the rich. the taxable basket of goods or the service purchased has to be the same in both cases. let us use the consumption flat tax as the focus of the argument. both goods and services are taxed, at the end user side. let us say that a man who earns 10,000 pesos per month and a man who earns 100,000 pesos both have a toothache.the same doctor will treat both of these patients for 6000 pesos. the tax rate is a flat 20%. the final bill becomes, in both cases, 6000 plus the 1200 in taxes, for a total of 7200 pesos for each patient. that additional 1200 pesos is a far greater portion of the salary of theman who earns the 10,000 pesos; it is 12%. for the man with the 100,000 salary, it is 1.2%. so the poor man is penalised more on
From: United States
his income because of the the nature of the tax structure. they may pay the exact same amount in dollars, but the burden is greater on the poorer man. it is a really simple concept to grasp; i have no idea why it is so abstruse to Cpone!!
Written by: cpone, 31 Dec 2007 12:14 PM
From: United States
If you got a Masters in Economics, I suggest you get your money back.
You can't even afford a new laptop for christs sake and you have a Masters in economics? WTF?
Anyway..... Again you talk jibberish, lots of words and said nothing.
Read fairtax.org and see that EVERYTHING you are blabbing about is covered in the proposal of the fair tax. EVERYTHING.
I'll break it down for you again.
What the Fairtax proposal will do is put MORE money into the pockets of people to do with as they please, it will put more emphasis on saving (something that the poor do not do) and at the same time make businesses work more fluid in the market, as they won't have to bother with sending quarterly checks to the IRS for their tax burdens, and more time building companies, instead of wasting time on tax wise investing.
Written by: cpone, 31 Dec 2007 12:23 PM
From: United States
Your example is so full of holes its a damned joke.
What makes you think that the price will be ANY DIFFERENT if the man was paying just the 6,000 dollar fee? LOL.. The additional 1200 that he had to pay for this flat fee service tax, WHICH DOCTORS BILLS WILL NOT HAVE THIS TAX FYI would be the LESS than he has paid in taxes per check.
But lets take US dollars for this example.
A person that gets paid 40K gets approximately 8 THOUSAND DOLLARS IN TAXES! That is SS, Medicare and Federal. That is not even to mention the cities and states like NY that take out state taxes and local taxes from your check.
FYI if you were to put a 20% tax on all purchases, GUESS what that works out to be for an earner of 40K. 8K! FOOL!
IF before you remove that income from someone you put it in their hands it gives the person their discretion to do with the money as they please. As an "economist" (which I highly doubt) you would be all for this.
But I digress.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Cpone, your approach is very "Liberal"; liberal in the Lockian/Friedman sense. But this approach, which focuses on the individual, masks and supports the huge inequalities that exist today. The truth of the matter is that if you have a 10% sales tax, and lets say a rich person and a poor person both buy the same TV for $100 and pay the same $10 tax, the loss of marginal-utility that the $10 represents is higher for the poorer person; this is what Dreadlocks was referring to. In other words, the $10 mean more to the poor person, which may prohibit the purchase of the TV. This is a good argument.
"Liberal" approach is very defensible - It's my money, and it belongs in my pocket. But, there are many of us who hold that collective solutions are needed to address the huge inequalities in our society. For this, we need taxes; and given that the rich benefit more from public services (they have more to lose), and that they can spare more, then it make sense that they pay more.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Not prohibitively more, b/c there is a level of taxation that will cause people to evade taxes, more than they already do.
Anyhow, just b/c the liberal approach is defensible, it doesn't make it right. We need to take a step back and ask what type of society we want? One with Huge inequalities, which on the one side provides "freedoms" to use your money as you wish, but essentially locks people out of the public sphere, economic opportunities, and social mobility? Or one that is inclusive, invests in the public sphere, reduces the gap between the rich & poor, and adopts a concept of "justice" that aims to give effective representation and voice to the public in the public decisionmaking process?
These are not independent of eachother, so no need to attack me for that, but if you only adopt a liberal concept, it definitely makes a more equitable society more difficult to achieve and, I believe, that it will continue increasing social problems.
We need to START taxing wealth..
Written by: cpone, 2 Jan 2008 10:28 AM
From: United States
So guess what baldoria23, then the poor person skips out on the additional luxury of buying a TV that is worth 100 dollars. They will buy one for 50 or less. The OBJECTIVE of this model, is to give people more autonomy over their money. It places more emphasis on people saving, which we can all agree is part of the problem with our current economy. Savings is all but non-existent.
I would say my stance on taxes is more LIBERTARIAN than liberal.
The Liberal mantra is that as you stated in your last portion, the MORE you make the MORE you should FORCEFULLY be taxed. That makes no sense. As it stands now, people are taxed that are in the 100K plus range at 25% of INCOME, most of them at the upper levels hide it all through tax management plans, remove those tax savings, and when they go and buy that PORSHE for 200,000 dollars, you will think LOTS LESS about the 100 dollar TV you compared it to. ;)
Written by: cpone, 2 Jan 2008 10:34 AM
From: United States
This notion of taxing wealth is absurd.
Why should I be taxed more for my success, because I have done more, I should be punished.
How the hell is that a fair model at all?
So basically, to achieve more is to be punished more? Correct?
If I have my own business even though I provide work for many, I should pay more for being able to open a business?
This is where the current tax system fails.
Its the epitome of class envy. Because YOU are rich, the govt should tax you more. But since your poorer and have not been able to achieve as much, the govt should take more from me, to provide for you.
Its things like that, that make me want Ron Paul sometimes. Removing this class envy would incentivize people to achieve more, to seek more.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
WHy are taxes a punishment? Why are they not an investment. INstead of the rich buying an expensive Security system b/c of high crime, they invest in education or health services or housing, so that people don't have to go out and steal to support their family. Taxes are not punishment, they are the funds that build a society.
Well, I liberalism in the US = progressive policy; but everywhere else and in political and economic theory, liberalism are Market oriented policies, which means as little of a state as possible.
Your response to my example points to the problem with liberal solutions; Markets lead to inequality; if inequality leads to unfair influence in policy making process, then market solutions lead to the exclusion of the poor from decisionmaking processes. Since a flat tax does not discriminate against rich or poor, then it will sustain or increase inequalities.
Much of the wealth in the DR has been inherited since the conquest.
Con't-
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Look at the CEPAL report, the DR is extremely unequal. We need to ask why this is the case and what supports such unequal distribution. I'm not saying that it's impossible for an individual born in a Barrio to eventually be able to buy a condo in Casa de Campo; but anyone can win the lottery! And if the chances of "making it" is like playing the lotto, then isn't there something wrong with our society?
I conducted a survey back in 2004 of youths in an Herrera high school about their impression of "saliendo adelante". They ALL pointed to Migration. This is a state of crisis when youth from a poor/working-class area don't see any soc. mobility within their country. Why this is the case?
I propose that it is the extreme concentration of wealth, corrupt policies & politicians, and our "external-oriented" economy that maintain this state of affairs. Instead of less G we need a G that has a different philosophy, one focused on the public and not on themselves or the elites.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Redistribution of wealth through public investment may be the key to build a strong internal middle class, economic opportunities for the youth, less crime, more civic invested public, a more transparent Gov., and a more inclusive political process.
Institutions, as I have argued in the past, are the key. But institutions are conservative and will not change without the public demanding change. The only ones afraid/against change are those who benefit from the current state of affairs - elites, foreign investors, and politicians.
Time for change is now, and a key for this change is a progressive DIRECT tax system. B/c the other thing about a VAT/Sales Tax, in addition to being regressive, is that it is not direct, so people are less likely to demand better services.
Written by: cpone, 2 Jan 2008 12:03 PM
From: United States
The inherent problems with societies are not the need for more money from the rich. Since when has that actually amounted to anything? Since when has that money trickled down to those areas that need them?
The last thing I think a Middle class needs is to be taxed more. The thinking of such is what keeps economic development from thriving in many Latin American countries. That and of course the rampant corruption that exists, but that is for another day.
Look the problem is that as you increase taxes, you reduce economic activity, you reduce the amount of people willing to open businesses, you reduce the labor force and the amount those people are going to make, there fore reducing how much is spent and you end up where you are now, little to no growth at all and a system that has not helped the middle class but instead hurt it.
Its was you are seeing in Denmark and other European nations.
Here watch this:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92Written by: cpone, 2 Jan 2008 12:06 PM
From: United States
I also beg to differ.
I think much of the wealth you are seeing today are from people taking risks in business, with real estate development and a new generation of people that migrated from DR to the US and have been sending money to build wealth back in their homeland.
DR will be awash in money IF it corrects its crime problem from people that are in their 50's and 60's that will return to their island to retire and enjoy the years they have remaining in life with the money they have been hoarding all those years working in the US.
Call it the DR baby boom if you will, for there are LOTS of Dominicans that are in those later years, poised to move back to their homelands, and fulfill their dreams when they left 20-30 years ago, of coming back and dying in their country.
From: United States
Before those Baby Boomers come back to retire, DR better have a "Real Health System" in place. It doesn't pay to retire in DR if you have to fly back (650/person +-) to the U.S. every 8 months for for your routine check up or to treat a life threatening illness. When the Baby Boomer retires, you will need your health first, in order to enjoy your retirement years. In DR that becomes a big $ bite out of your pocket right now. Retiring in DR is not a cost saving advantage for someone 50 and up in age.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
I'm sorry cpone, let me try tease out your points so that I understand better... Taxing of the middle class has stymied development thoughtout LAC, I agree. But one can't ignore that there are other factors- Centralization of ownership of industry and land in the state and small number of families has been, and still is, a significant factor; just read any CEPAL document on inequality. Even the WB recognized this in a 2005 report about inequality. So taxing the middle class is an issue, but not the only. Inequality is recognized as a more salient issue. Plus, a progressive sys can be designed NOT to overburden the middleclass; e.g. tax landowners with more than 1000 tarreas; Tax inheritance above US$10 million; or people driving Hummers. The point is, there are ways to design tax systems that don't tax the middle class too much. Actually, the problem in LAC has been that the Rich and the Poor are, for the most part, exempt for taxes, and the middle class pays. Time for the rich to pay
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
As far as Taxes decreasing econ activity, it may be true or NOT. Depending on how the tax revenues are used. Gov. spending can generate growth in many ways - INVESTMENT and GOv. Spending. If Gov. spending goes to investment in physical and human capital, then instead of depressing econ. activity, it may generate act. Good example is Korea's tax reforms in the 1960s before its high growth period. The revamp tax system, allowed Korea to develop the state capacity to guide the development- They invested in an independent bureaucracy, public services, and physical infrastructure. I'm not suggesting we follow the Korean example, but it is an example of how taxes led to growth.
AS far as crime, one has to look at the root causes of crime, not just the symptoms. Lack of public services (health, school, parks...) is a key factor in crime, one that is often ignored. Investment in the public sphere will reduce crime rates.
Please let me know if I captured your argument.
From: United States
Cpone, you suggest that the 23% consumption tax which is proposed by the fair tax adherents is the way to go. here's the problem. if all the other tax gathering strategies are scrapped, then all the revenue will have to be raised by the consumption tax alone. the people with whom you agree have posited a rate of 23%. the gentlemen at the Brookings institute have estimate it to close to 60%. my problem is that since there is such a large gap between the two schools of thought, i cannot decide who is right, or if the truth lies somewhere in the middle. so since you have all the answers, being in the possession of HIGHER THINKING, please help me decide. tell me what aspects of the Brookings methodology you find to be academically incorrect in making their calculation. tell me if it is the use of an inappropriate econometric models, or if their data gathering process is lacking in accuracy. tell me which method you find more acceptable , given your higher knowledge, and help me decide.
From: United States
you see, Cpone, unlike you, i have a foundation in economics, and i like numbers and methods. if i dont understand something, i ask the posters who know more about the subjects than i do. if i read an article on sociology and politics, written by Baldoria, for example, i do not rush in like a bull in a china shop, trying to make all manner of unsubstantiated points; i try to learn something. similarly, when Enriquillo and Frank The Tank write on the history, sociology and politics of hispaniola, i recognise how limited i am in those areas, and i take a quiet moment to learn something. before i write a post on the metro, i ask Mr Thelmo Rancier for technical advice, as he is a master in the area. for general reading matter, i sometimes solicit the help and opinion of Mr Lautaro. you, on the other hand, seem to think you know a lot of everything, but you do not know anything about economics. i taught economics 101 for 2 years, and, had you been in my class and submitted some of your
From: United States
drivel, you would have earned a failing grade. i would probably have asked the dean of studies to transfer you to a course more suited to your capacities, such as HISTORY OF THE FRISBEE, or HUBCAP DESIGNS FOR A NEW MILLENIUM. if you want to be so dogmatic and insulting, do yourself a favor and get some background. i recommend you go and buy Economics, by Roger Arnold. then you can read the chapter which addresses regressive taxation. your explanation of why gas is more expensive on an island is the most laughable nonsense i have read in years. but you still seek to argue with Escott, who gave you a clear explanation of why you were wrong; HUMILITY, son, HUMILITY!!!
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What a low-life publicity stunt.
DISCUSTING !!!!
And all that just to have his picture on the frontpage again .....
If he really had some good intentions (cojones),
he would go there by Publico/GuaGua from the Capital
(maybe than he would see the need to fix the roads)
Wear the same clothes as the rest of the family
Eat the same food that this family would eat if he is not there
Drink the same fluids and in the same conditions when he is not there
Shower cold (IF there is water) and just use a bucket and nature
Sleep there in the same poor house, in a same poor bed, under the same poor conditions
(complete with with the malaria/dengue mosquitos, WITHOUT all kind of medical threatment, that this poor family does not get as well
AND finally if after that day he get a cold, flu or ameba give him the same treatment as those poor people.
I think that if it was my family that the president was eating dinner with, we would be honored, and what a better place for Leonel to listen to what the poor have to say.
Celebrities, politician as well as regular good people help the poor and devote time money and gifts during the holidays. What have you done lately?
It sounds like the ones making negative comments are out of touch with what is really happening here. The streets are safer amidst the most challenging times this country has ever seen.
As long as the church runs this country there will be overpopulation and too many mouths to feed. This is the case in all of Latin America.
It will take at least two more generations to change the thinking of these countries.
It’s time the Dominican people take responsibility for their children’s future.
Don't blame Leonel for the decades of bad governments and backwards thinking
And please do blame Leonel. Was he not President before and what a diaster that was. Boyer was a better President!
I would like to see ONE THING GOOD that he has done either term! I can't see it for the life of me. He is just as bad as Hippo was and as a very wise man once said "he is Hippo with Hair".
I didn't believe it at first but I certainly do now.
continued....
Candelier
Why don't you guys run for president?...clearly you think you can do a better job...making things sound so easy and swearing you know exactly how to fix all of the DR's problems while blaming one president for centuries of poverty and corruption.
If you rule with an iron fist (yes that is why I am voting for him) you may have law and order here again and YES I think that would be GOOD for business, improve economics (you think companies will invest here when they get HELD UP just about at gunpoint by Truckers?
I wanted him to be elected just so you know. I waited while things got terrible here, prices went out of control (I figured that things had to get worse before better) and waited and waited for things to turn around.
This bum builds a Metro and takes what little money in education away to put it towards the Metro and for what, for his Legacy is what. Do I think a Metro could be a good idea for the capital? Of course it could and would be needed if the rest of the country wasn't in such bad shape and we actually HAD THE MONEY.
I could go on and on. Such as leases on government owned buildings at stupid low prices to
We are more in debt than we were under Hippo. Prices are so far out of control now and were better under Hippo. Is Leonel more educated than hippo? Yes but to no good for the people of this country.
No problem Dominicans will burn a few tires and reelect the bum which I agree with you on that point. He is handing out food to pour people in an area that supports him. Makes plenty of sense to me. We have thousands of displaced people from the storms but they wont have food on the table if they live in an area that doesn't support him.
My fellow Dominicans, the fact that you and millions of others can not even afford to buy Christmas eve dinner is insignificant.
So what if your stomachs are empty, so what if the hospitals have no medicine, so what if your children have no desks or books, so what if interests rates are at usury levels, so what if your being taxed to death, so what if your wages are not enough to buy at least one meal per day, so what if you pay the highest rates for nonexistent electricity and phone service in LA, so what if you pay $5.00 plus per gallon of gas, DAMMIT I AM TELLING YOU THINGS ARE BETTER!
You ungrateful, cynical dumb peasants, don't you understand priorities come first like the METRO(and maybe an Artificial Island if you are stupid enough, I mean sophisticated enough to reelect me) not Human Beings.
THINGS ARE BETTER DAMMIT! Are you going to believe me or your Lying Eyes, Coño!!!!!!!!!!!!
2-Again, it takes more than being a corrupt, iron fist, dictator type for pres. to progress. It's not just about controlling crime (which, by the way, has decreased); it's about negotiating with countries, building cyber parks, attracting investments, etc.
3-dominicans spend 15% of their income on transportation; only second to food (more than their housing which is 10%) ; a metro would help reduce this large expense. And although it only benefits the capital...out of 9m ppl, 3m are in the capital alone.
5. no other gov has built/created more schools, jobs, hospitals, roads, aqueducts, etc. in such a short period of time.
6. In dollar amounts, yes, we are more in debt than hippo's time but a lot of that money is paying for the disaster that hippo did in his gov. And in percentage to the gdp, we are in LESS debt than b4 bc of how much the economy has grown in proportion to this. besides, debt is not bad (US has the biggest debt in the world) so long as it's used for good purposes. It's like college students having debts bc of student loans...but it's for a good purpose and turns out to be for the best (for their future).
6-interest rates have lowered bc of his admin and he has attracted a lot of investments that have created thousands of jobs
7-the artificial island was cancelled but either way, this was a private investment
During his years as President, Balaguer ordered the construction of schools, hospitals, dams, roads, and many important buildings. No doubt he made an important contribution, but at the same time he neglected (even intentionally) the people's education and public health.
However, he continued with massive infrastructure projects, such as the construction of highways, bridges, schools, housing projects and hospitals. Following the style of Trujillo, these highly visible projects were very publicized over government-controlled media and through grandiose public ceremonies designed to enhance Balaguer's popularity. The projects were also used as a means to reward his political supporters with lucrative public works contracts.
Once completed, much of this infrastructure would go unmaintained or unsupported. Schools without teachers or books, and hospitals without doctors or medicines, were commonplace.
1. quote me a statistic which shows reduction in crime. when you have done that, elucidate whether it is street crime, white collar crime, moneylaundering, or whatever,
2. please explain to me how the metro will reduce the personal expenditure of dominicans on transportation
you asster that the government has spent more on schools in a shorter time than any other. actually, they spend no more of GDP on education than the Hippo gang did. last year they spent 1.2%, by far the least in the caribbean, except for haiti. and every year the indices of performance weaken. so we are throwing good money after bad
and please, you cannot equate the US debt with the debt here .on of the main reasons why the USA can maintain a 9.3 trillion dollar debt is because the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, and all petroleum purchases are made in dollars. i wont elaborate further.
For the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus' landing in the Americas and the visit of Pope John Paul II, Balaguer spent millions on a restoration of parts of historic, colonial Santo Domingo, and on sprucing up the parts of the City to be transversed by the Pope, including the construction of a grand new avenue lined with modern housing blocks.
Faro a Colón
More controversial was that Balaguer spent two hundred million US Dollars on the construction of a massive ten-story Columbus Lighthouse. Completed in 1992, the Columbus Lighthouse was designed to beam the image of a Christian cross into the night sky and to be visible for tens of miles. Since completion, the Columbus Lighthouse, which supposely houses Columbus' remains,[1][2] has been a minor tourist attraction. Its light has almost never been used due to extremely high energy costs and frequent blackouts in the country.
Now this is the model that Mr. Fernandez is following.
Like the Faro a Colón the METRO will be another white elephant.
Dosen't Leonel want to be a Balaguer chiquito!
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Balaguer
There are many statistics that show a reduction in crime...even dominicantoday reports many articles every now and then stating this. I wont bother looking bc you wont believe it anyway (la quinta pata). Just like stats on less unemployment, more ecomic growth, more investments, etc. etc.
I forgot to mention before, taxes are GOOD for a country to progress. You cannot ask the gov and not give.
Again, just run for president since you guys make it seem so easy! I doubt you can have the country grow in so many important sector than the current gov has.
More importantly however is the fact that the country wont have to buy as much petroleum.
No where else in the world would a subway system begin with so little thought and planning. You think they actually did studies?
It needs to be well thought out, it needs proper planning and research so it isn't a hazard to the people who use it and of course proper funding that doesn't take away from more important issues such as health and education.
If these items are considered I think it is a brilliant idea.
Here is the answer it will take 20 years or more but no time like the present to start.
China.org.cn: Although the Population and Family Planning Law was formally implemented on September 1, family planning has actually been practiced as a basic policy of the nation for more than 20 years, proving highly effective. What was the central government’s original intention in creating such a law?
2..there is no way that box-fare revenues can possibly cover operating costs, plus the service on the construction bonds. therefore, it will have to be subsidised. the treasury will have to take money from other pressing needs to subsidise an infinitesimal portion of the population
3 this great reduction we will see in traffic on the streets is questionable. the los angeles subway system only manages to cut down on vehicular traffic by 2.9% at peak hour!
nobody has addressed the maintenance issues. the washington,dc system had problems with the doors, laying up cars for 6 months at a time. and we are talking about experienced engineers with years of service. they are going to have to
finally, the electricity requirements are going to be formidable. dedicated stations and substations will have to be built. this is a massive undertaking. maybe that is why the much maligned HIPOLITO rejected the idea when it was suggested by Brazil's president, Lula Da Silva. but Leonel fell for it, hook,line and sinker. maybe hippo is smarter from an economic standpoint.
I am a Californian, and LA is not a good example of how well a Metro system will do.
"Nobody walks in LA"
There just isn't room in the Capital to build any more bypasses over passes and tunnels.
The only place to go is under or over with a rail system.
The major use of public transporation is for the public to get back and forth to work and by giving them another option will surely improve the current situation.
I think it is better to embrace the decision and support it.
"Ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what can you do for your country."
The country is in better conditions then it has ever been before. WTF?
I guess as the saying goes: "You can't satisfy everyone."
What is the difference with this and say a politician going and helping out in a Soup kitchen for a day? You guys make it seem like Leonel didn't have humble beginnings.
Please I implore you to look at your facts before SPEAKING, you sound ridiculous.
San Francisco has a population of 700 thousand
Santo Domingo has a population of 2.2 million! Most of those being people that don't have modes of transportation OTHER THAN public bus or motorcycles.
THINK MAN THINK!
Those estimates of the metro seem LOW considering the density of population!
And yes having a train line will save TONS of petrol man. WTF?
You telling me that having people pile into a train 1,000 at a time is going to consume more petrol then having those same 1,000 people into what 30 city buses?
Critical thinking brother. Try it some time.
Sheesh...
Given these Abuses, the only thing I have to say is, NO MORE! I demand a stop to this Paternalistic approach to governing and demand to be included in the decisionmaking process. People know what's best for them, and MUST be included in policy discussion.
Show me a party that is willing to include the public, and that's the party I'm voting for.
In essence I'm for an inclusive party that has a progressive political agenda, and is not afraid of breaking with the elites and investing in bridging the gap between the rich and the poor. The PLD, PRD, and PRSC do not meet these requirements, so we must either force them to do so, or look to another party.
Go to the following articles for more insight & discussion:
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....n-the-2008-Dominican-Presidential
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....stitutions-and-Dominican-Politics
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....omingo-not-Paris-not-even-La-Vega
I think you are referring to Communism and look what a success that was!
I think people get taxed proportionately. 16% sales tax on everything. More you spend the more tax is collected from you.
Besides he scares me. I want to be rich one day without being taxed back to poor!
You also have no idea how difficult it is here to be successful in business. It is an uphill climb all the way with obstacles everywhere you turn.
And if you don't think IMPORTS are taxed to death check out what it costs to buy a Toyota Camray here that cost 17,300 US dollars in the States. BTW it is imported into the States from Japan.
Ludicrious is what it is and his platform I would vote against every day of the week.
Escott, I'm not proposing communism, which implies central planning. Also, just because you can't think of any countries that are close to the type of system I am proposing, it doesn't mean they are not out there; and even if there are none, we can still fight for a fairer society. What's so scary about change? Is what we have now so great for the vast majority? It is for the elites, who are terrified of change and try to scare the rest of us into believing that change is a buggy man. It is not. Change is our only hope!!!
I want you and everyone, to enjoy more than just basic needs, without having to become rich to do so.
WE WANT TO BE INCLUDED. We will no longer accept being shut out while our fates are determined by the political and social elites. We want an effective voice in the decision making process. I know what's best for me. I can tell the "experts" whether something will benefit me or not. I can provide input into policies.
These ideas are very scary to the rich and those who benefit from the status quo. But there are more of us "struggling" than there are of them. I'm not calling for equality, just the end of misery, hunger, exclusion. Include us in politics, we can't do any worse than the politicians, we can only do b
I don't agree that Finland and Sweden follow what Mr Baldoria proposes.
Mr. Baldoria,
Still wondering what MTS stands for. I love Cabrera.
Taxing the wealthy is not the answer. Raising duties is also not the anwer.
Only thing that will bring this country forward is education. Without advancing the education system here you may as well bomb this stupid country back to the DARK AGES!
The people of age to vote in this country are beyond redemption. It is the children you need to invest in. Pounding this country into debt is just robbing those children of their future before they even have a chance.
I will probably vote for Candelier even though he stands not one chance in hell of being elected because I believe he is the best choice of what is offered. He will satisfy one thing and that would be to make this country CIVILIZED which it isn't. Every day in the streets I see things that curl my toenails. We do need change!
You are now moving the bar.
First of all Santo Domingo is a wide city with many points of possible work HOWEVER Los Angeles is so poorly designed as a city in terms of its urban sprawl that the train system is not practical for something that can easily drive in the same time if not faster then the damned train takes.
Again a very piss poor analysis.
ESPECIALLY since the DR system is only going to expand even further, creating what could very possibly be the future of transportation for a generation of people that are already used to riding subways from their time in NYC, where most Dominicans flock to after leaving the Country.
The Subway is an excellent idea, and will serve many more people than any of you give it credit for. Its a MUCH better alternative to the bus. THE PROBLEM will be keeping it safe, should be interesting to see.
If I am rich and I spend annually say, 1 million on goods that I buy.
That is 230 THOUSAND dollars that I have to pay for my taxes, if I am a person that makes say 40K per year and spend 23% of my income on goods I spend 9200 dollars on taxes, which if you add in, NY sales taxes, NY STATE income taxes, NY LOCAL income taxes, FEDERAL income taxes, Social Security, you come FAR above that 9200 figure. Not to mention that you now actually get to KEEP more of your income UPFRONT, to SPEND or do with it as you wish.
I implore you once again, before you continue to sound like a complete idiot on the matter to read fairtax.org if you are as strapped for cash as you stated before, OR if you have some pennies to spare, by the book by Boortz.
Its bad to see someone talking out the side of their rear....
Trains that are being used in DR are electric based, if you run them LESS frequently you run LESS ENERGY, no matter WHAT the train is doing its consuming the same amount of energy, because the 3rd rail is the same constant flow of energy that is needed to operate the train, you can add all the airconditioners you WANT to your little equation, the electricity running on the 3rd rail where the power comes from is the same voltage.
Again something else you comment on that you don't have a freaking CLUE about.
How you equate in your mind, that sitting in traffic day in and day out with a bus running is somehow better FUEL efficient than a train carrying thousands of people daily is BEYOND ME. Even the eco freaks would slap you for saying something as ridiculous as that.
You cannot once again compare LOS ANGELES (that you want to know after using San Fran) to DR. Unless you have a crystal ball sit back and enjoy the metro.
1-The budget for the metro in 2008 will be less than 4% of the entire budget (12B pesos); this is much less than the gas and electric subsidies for 2008 (26B pesos; this is more than the entire cost of the 1st line of the metro). Think about that last fact and think about the fact that these costs are higher than they will be in the future (w/o taking inflation into acct) bc it's a new project. Also, this is a project that will benefit users for yrs.
2-In San Francisco, people do not crowd un in small public cars and the amount of ppl with their own cars is superior to that of ppl in the capital (only 2 out of every 10 ppl). Also, relative to what people make in the DR, gas prices for their vehicles take up a much larger share than those in SF and many other cities. This is a huge incentive to take public transportation.
3-the metro will have 3 generators including it's own park with 32MW worth of electricity. Either one can have the metro work solely. The reason why it's electric source is separate from the public is bc the cost of generating electricity individually is much more expensive so its much more economic to contract a generator and use the electricity in high volumes.
Thank you!
Having a vision of progress is fine, but what if that vision is contrary to the public's needs? Look at Brasilia, a work of art from a planner's point of view, but the least functional big city in all Brazil. Why? b/c planners never bothered to consult the people what they wanted, how they interacted with their space. I'm afraid LF is the same way, too arrogant to ask what people want.
So, what will you say if the metro fails to meet your expectations, or costs are higher than predicted?
With that said, I would like to ask supporters of the metro two questions:
1. Were there any mistakes in the discussion and planning phases of the metro?
2. What will indicate to you the success and failure of the metro? Knowing that the these results may take years to be seen. So lets say within the next 5 years.
What I'm trying to understand is if avid supporters of the metro are able to see any problems with LF's methods and at least consider the possibility of failure. LF has many wonderful achievements, but also many tragic failures: Harley Motorcycles; the Brazilian Airplane; the Dam in Santiago... In both his successes and failures, LF's M.O. is consistently one of arrogance. No discussion, no explanation, no alternatives.
When ever I see someone trying to use words to impress people I am always thinking about "If you can't impress them with your intellect baffle em with your BS".
I am just a simple guy trying to understand but I do care about this place and I do live here unlike many others who seem to have all the answers.
My biggest problem with Mr Dreadlocks is that he thinks everything should be done in what he considers the most intelligent way and not taking into consideration how screwed up this country is.
Mr Dreadlocks, this is the only country that can screw up a "Wet Dream". Thats right, take something that should be good and FUBAR it to death so things really have to be looked at differently than a textbook.
I have an advantage over the intellectuals that post here. I am a business man and I think more clearly and don't need a vote to do what is right..
And, yes sometimes we get frustrated, but I hope we don't give in and give up civility or an open mind.
Mr Dreadlocks,
This particular piece I had a hard time with. Hence my reaction. I am not an elite type of person.
You can't even afford a new laptop for christs sake and you have a Masters in economics? WTF?
Anyway..... Again you talk jibberish, lots of words and said nothing.
Read fairtax.org and see that EVERYTHING you are blabbing about is covered in the proposal of the fair tax. EVERYTHING.
I'll break it down for you again.
What the Fairtax proposal will do is put MORE money into the pockets of people to do with as they please, it will put more emphasis on saving (something that the poor do not do) and at the same time make businesses work more fluid in the market, as they won't have to bother with sending quarterly checks to the IRS for their tax burdens, and more time building companies, instead of wasting time on tax wise investing.
What makes you think that the price will be ANY DIFFERENT if the man was paying just the 6,000 dollar fee? LOL.. The additional 1200 that he had to pay for this flat fee service tax, WHICH DOCTORS BILLS WILL NOT HAVE THIS TAX FYI would be the LESS than he has paid in taxes per check.
But lets take US dollars for this example.
A person that gets paid 40K gets approximately 8 THOUSAND DOLLARS IN TAXES! That is SS, Medicare and Federal. That is not even to mention the cities and states like NY that take out state taxes and local taxes from your check.
FYI if you were to put a 20% tax on all purchases, GUESS what that works out to be for an earner of 40K. 8K! FOOL!
IF before you remove that income from someone you put it in their hands it gives the person their discretion to do with the money as they please. As an "economist" (which I highly doubt) you would be all for this.
But I digress.
"Liberal" approach is very defensible - It's my money, and it belongs in my pocket. But, there are many of us who hold that collective solutions are needed to address the huge inequalities in our society. For this, we need taxes; and given that the rich benefit more from public services (they have more to lose), and that they can spare more, then it make sense that they pay more.
Anyhow, just b/c the liberal approach is defensible, it doesn't make it right. We need to take a step back and ask what type of society we want? One with Huge inequalities, which on the one side provides "freedoms" to use your money as you wish, but essentially locks people out of the public sphere, economic opportunities, and social mobility? Or one that is inclusive, invests in the public sphere, reduces the gap between the rich & poor, and adopts a concept of "justice" that aims to give effective representation and voice to the public in the public decisionmaking process?
These are not independent of eachother, so no need to attack me for that, but if you only adopt a liberal concept, it definitely makes a more equitable society more difficult to achieve and, I believe, that it will continue increasing social problems.
We need to START taxing wealth..
I would say my stance on taxes is more LIBERTARIAN than liberal.
The Liberal mantra is that as you stated in your last portion, the MORE you make the MORE you should FORCEFULLY be taxed. That makes no sense. As it stands now, people are taxed that are in the 100K plus range at 25% of INCOME, most of them at the upper levels hide it all through tax management plans, remove those tax savings, and when they go and buy that PORSHE for 200,000 dollars, you will think LOTS LESS about the 100 dollar TV you compared it to. ;)
Why should I be taxed more for my success, because I have done more, I should be punished.
How the hell is that a fair model at all?
So basically, to achieve more is to be punished more? Correct?
If I have my own business even though I provide work for many, I should pay more for being able to open a business?
This is where the current tax system fails.
Its the epitome of class envy. Because YOU are rich, the govt should tax you more. But since your poorer and have not been able to achieve as much, the govt should take more from me, to provide for you.
Its things like that, that make me want Ron Paul sometimes. Removing this class envy would incentivize people to achieve more, to seek more.
Well, I liberalism in the US = progressive policy; but everywhere else and in political and economic theory, liberalism are Market oriented policies, which means as little of a state as possible.
Your response to my example points to the problem with liberal solutions; Markets lead to inequality; if inequality leads to unfair influence in policy making process, then market solutions lead to the exclusion of the poor from decisionmaking processes. Since a flat tax does not discriminate against rich or poor, then it will sustain or increase inequalities.
Much of the wealth in the DR has been inherited since the conquest.
Con't-
I conducted a survey back in 2004 of youths in an Herrera high school about their impression of "saliendo adelante". They ALL pointed to Migration. This is a state of crisis when youth from a poor/working-class area don't see any soc. mobility within their country. Why this is the case?
I propose that it is the extreme concentration of wealth, corrupt policies & politicians, and our "external-oriented" economy that maintain this state of affairs. Instead of less G we need a G that has a different philosophy, one focused on the public and not on themselves or the elites.
Institutions, as I have argued in the past, are the key. But institutions are conservative and will not change without the public demanding change. The only ones afraid/against change are those who benefit from the current state of affairs - elites, foreign investors, and politicians.
Time for change is now, and a key for this change is a progressive DIRECT tax system. B/c the other thing about a VAT/Sales Tax, in addition to being regressive, is that it is not direct, so people are less likely to demand better services.
The last thing I think a Middle class needs is to be taxed more. The thinking of such is what keeps economic development from thriving in many Latin American countries. That and of course the rampant corruption that exists, but that is for another day.
Look the problem is that as you increase taxes, you reduce economic activity, you reduce the amount of people willing to open businesses, you reduce the labor force and the amount those people are going to make, there fore reducing how much is spent and you end up where you are now, little to no growth at all and a system that has not helped the middle class but instead hurt it.
Its was you are seeing in Denmark and other European nations.
Here watch this:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92
I think much of the wealth you are seeing today are from people taking risks in business, with real estate development and a new generation of people that migrated from DR to the US and have been sending money to build wealth back in their homeland.
DR will be awash in money IF it corrects its crime problem from people that are in their 50's and 60's that will return to their island to retire and enjoy the years they have remaining in life with the money they have been hoarding all those years working in the US.
Call it the DR baby boom if you will, for there are LOTS of Dominicans that are in those later years, poised to move back to their homelands, and fulfill their dreams when they left 20-30 years ago, of coming back and dying in their country.
AS far as crime, one has to look at the root causes of crime, not just the symptoms. Lack of public services (health, school, parks...) is a key factor in crime, one that is often ignored. Investment in the public sphere will reduce crime rates.
Please let me know if I captured your argument.