I would like to know from any Haitian brother their opinion about any positive contribution that They have done for mankind (Well known writter, musician, doctor, etc).
Haitians are always looking for ways to victimize themselves and attack DR on any given reason like for example believing that half of the DR belongs to them.
When our president went to Haiti few years ago He almost got killed by your wild people (same president is helping haitians with scholarships in different colleges in our country)
When J. Bertrand A used to be president was invited to visit DR and quote "under no circumstances I will ride on any roadway or highway that has the name of Duarte.
My conclusion is Haitians will always be ungrateful, uncivilized and wild people regardless of whatever They want to post after my comments.
Haitians have to focus on fixing their country not on attacking and forcing dominican constitution to accomodate their needs and opinions.
"May God bless the trinitarios"

I dont think you have half the brain capacity to understand the situation between Haiti and the DR. Where did you get the information about Jean B. Aristide saying that he wouldn't ride on a road name Duarte..Are u serious...Well if he did say that I guess he knows his way around since coming from Haiti one doesn't take La Duarte..lol. L. Fernandez visit to haiti I admit was not done in good fashion by a few disgruntled hoodlums but he wasn't never in iminent danger. That haitian government gave a public apology to him. I think you should rename yourself Sanky Panky at least Rubirosa had some class. Get a life..BTW, where did u get this info that haitians the DR belongs to them? Me think you drink too much clerin.. Question how many people formed the trinity? is it four..

Mr. JabaoHaitian

Why wasting your time with a DOMINICANITO living in "nueva yol" collecting welfare? Mr, JabaoHaitian I really like your posts you are always on track. So keep writing Sir.

To Mr. Carlos: Thanks for your pro-haitians comments but FYI: I dont' live of welfare and I love my country maybe more than you do.
People like you are the ones pushing our country to the edge no living on the reality that one day
DR might suffer a balcanization process.
Respect begins in good behavior and leading by example, if you (Carlos) and the jabao hate or don't care about the DR well being please keep your ignorant comments for yourself.
Everybody has a right of opinion but once again can any pro-haitian give a single example of somehting positive that Haiti or Haitians have done to help themselves.
Like Mrs. Sonia Pierre and all ONG's in the country You want our constitution to abide by your needs and that's disorderly thinking and behavior.
There are countries worldwide like (Japan and some eruopean countries that don't give you citizenship the way Haitians want to force our constitution to accomodate their needs).
grow up as people and learn to accept mistakes

To:JRRubirosa,
The First thing I want you to do is look up the "Treaty of basel 1795". This was a treaty between France and Spain. You talk about Haitians being uncivilized, but as far as we know, theres probably a Haitian being chased by a bunch of Dominican mob, waving their machetes.....And for your information, I do a lot for my country...Everytime I open my mouth and speak about Haiti, you will never hear something negative come out. At least were civilized enough to know not to honor and give an elaborate resting place to an italian thats responsible for the rape, enlavement, and genocide of over five hundred thousand people. Please leave your Anti-Haitian rethoric at the domino table.

FYI mr. Rubirosa, the two countries live on an island, a fact that alone makes the interdependency and connection between the two of them an unavoidable thing, so, if we fail to move on and forgive our past differences and animosities, then, my friend, we will be doomed to perish together, because the failures and tragedies of one are bound to reach the other, sooner or later, so I'll beg from you (and other someones out there), to please leave your flag-waving behind, because the social, economical, political and ecological problems that are tormenting the island will not be solved until we, as conscious and civilized human beings, sit on a table and discuss possible solutions to these problems while, at the same time, putting a stop to the dreadful habit of wanting to have a bar brawl every time a problem arises. (cont...)

(cont...) besides, while it's true that our country is in a better social and economical position than Haiti, it's also true that we're no Switzerland. We're still facing many of the problems that characterize any Third World country (crime, unemployment, blackouts, inflation, corruption, famine, etc.). So, if you don't want to look like a fool, mr. Rubirosa, then I suggest you to be mindful of the problems that our own country is facing before making spiteful remarks regarding other countries' problems.

P.S.: If you want to blame someone for the vicitimization of the haitians on this country, then blame the construction and sugar companies, which are shamelessly exploiting the inmigrant status of this poor people just to keep the common workers salaries in a frozen state in order for them to keep the lion's share of the profits.

Thank you JRRubirosa, finally someone has the guts to stand up for their own people and expose all the BS that is written on these pages. I find Carlo's quote very telling "Why wasting your time with a DOMINICANITO living in "nueva yol" collecting welfare?" I think that says a lot about the view he holds on his own people (if he is Dominican?) and I think thats the way most of these pro-haiti people on here would want us to feel about ourselves. I shouldn't even say pro-haiti I should say anti-Dominican because I want haiti to succeed as much as the next person, but I will not do it at the expense of my own land. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I read somewhere that the hatian constitution says that the island is "one and indivisible"? Viva Duarte

Yes DannyVC, our constitution does indeed say that the entire island of Haiti (i.e.: Hispaniola) is "one and indivisible"... Not that anybody actually takes that seriously.

To: DannyVC,
Your absolutely right that the Haitian Constitution does say that the island is "One and indvisible"..... Thats was the constitution of 1805, more than two-hundred years ago. That was before Juan Pablo Duarte rebelled and created the Dominican Republic because he did not want to be ruled by a bunch of former slaves who spoke french and threw white powder by a campfire praising the "devil". So next time you are going to post something make sure you do your research. Vive, Toussiant, Petion, Dessaline, Christophe. "L'Union Fait la Force"

I feel sorry for all anti-dominicans in this post because everything negative that They say about Dominican Republic shows only selfishness and bad karma against our country because They destroy everything on their side of the island.
Haitians have to wake up from the dream that the rest of the planet has to provide for mistakes that they have done in the past.
Once again I feel sorry for you and Sonia Pierre (Which being born and raised in the DR) is
so ungrateful to discredite our homeland with lies and false information.
I still keep my opinion that you will never thank all good actions that our president is being doing like providing scholarships, free medical care and looking to help funds and help from other countries to aleviate Haiti's hell.
I have never seen a single comment from any gratefull haitian acknowledging all good intentions that our president has.
Not other goverment cares the way PLD cares about the jungle situation that they have.
That's why france left you

Haitians have to once again grow up, organize their country, get civilized, learn to respect dominican constitution, stop being the victims and believe in themselves maklng an example to the world that They can be different.
Once you achive all these goals you might have a different country base in prosperity, grow and order.
Besides that stop please from making Dominican Republic look bad to the rest of the countries because this will make animosity against you to grow among Dominicans.
Try at least to do diferent than you are actually doing and hopefully one day We could live at peace.

Man!…. This web site should be named Haitian today. I bet most of you are exiles from the "other" Dominican site.



P.S Glad to see your back at it Mr. Jabao; but if you permit me, I have a Question : don't you get tired of arguing the same thing in every single post that says "Haitian" in it.

(The one formerly named Frank Aquino)

There's so much love on this website.

Or is it just Black people hating on Black people?

To: JRRubirosa, DannyVC, and FranktheTank,

Why are you here in the USA. We Americans don't want you here but you came anyway. Go back to DR the jungle that you came from and fight the Haitians there. Please don't use my country to fight your battles. It's ironic that you are fighting Mrs. Sonia Pierre for fighting for her right of Dominican citizenship but you are here in the U.S enjoying your status as an American Citizen and the free education provided by the American tax payers.

John i'm just going to paste my responce from our last conversation

you Know reading is good for you

1- I’m a US citizen and my mother was born in NY so it doesn’t matter where I was born.
2- I’m a proud veteran of armed services of the U.S(my family has a rich history of service not only in U.S but in D.R as well; as a matter of fact one of my uncles was one of the first Dominican Émigrés to graduate from West point) so I don’t’ have to thankful for anything, because it’s because of me, and my family’s sacrifice, that certain people can take their freedoms for granted.
3- What I pay in taxes in year would cover my kids health and school needs ten fold; so be thankful there’s people like me to get shafted, for there to be enough capital for other peoples needs (like yours).
I'm what people call human capital and your not.

This topic is very touchy and obviously there are many opinions floating.... Hey, have you seen the news on the frontpage about the rains? :P

I'm sorry Mr. JOHNUSA but that post doesn't even merit a response. Your words just show you as another redneck racist who doesn't understand the difference between legal and illegal migration and the idea of national sovereignty. Just like you said, black people fighting black people right? Well let us monkeys fight each other, you can go back to your civilized white activities.

first off, France did not leave Haiti...Haiti fought for their freedom.

I do agree with Rubirosa in that illegal immigration (whether in DR or in the US) should not be justified. I would like Haiti to prosper but not to the expense of the DR either. Haitians HAVE and DO contribute to the dominican economy in many ways but the illegal immigration is out of control.

Rubirosa, your arguments are tainted when you start calling ppl uncivilized and wild. You bring some good points but you can do so without degrading an entire nation the way you do. There's really no need for that. Haitians are humans and happen to be going through a worse situation than dominicans; they just want to survive and that's understandable. Be careful what you say. Remember Puerto ricans used to migrate to the DR bc they were in worse conditions; now it's the other way around. You never what the future may hold; Haitians, like dominicans, deserve to be respected.

Dear JRRubirosa

As for the question you asked about what haitians done in this world. I think i can reward you with some facts, that might set you straight. For noteable haitians, we have Jean Baptiste Pointe du Sable who is the founder of Chicago. Yes, Chicago in the USA. Pretty big city, one of the wealthiest freed slave in the Americas in the 19th Century. Then we have W.E.B DuBois, one of the first black person to receive a PHD in Harvard. As for presidents, we have Alexandre Petion, who sent troops with Simon Bolivar to give Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, etc independence. FYI, Venezuela's and Colombia's flags were made in Jacmel Haiti, before Bolivar went to free his country. That's a tidbit of what haitians have done for this world. Do some research before you open your mouth calling people uncivilized. I bet you're shocked, because i didnt' need to use the entertainment industry like most people. Peace, and READ before YOU speak.

JRRubirosa

One last thing, I respect your opinion. But please don't go calling anyone uncivilized, because of their current situation. Because when you turn the tables around and come to the states, I am sure dominicans are found at the bottom of the list when it comes to being civilized. And i don't think its right for them to be seen that way either. I guess its all about education, i was blessed to be educated, and not be blinded by ignorance.

El_Mayimbe, Good Comment

Dont answer this guy he is the resident "flamer" has nothing intelligent to say.

Although the historical facts that you have put forth are accurate, mr. John, you're a being inaccurate on one single fact: dominicans and haitians do not constitute, or have ever constituted, a single unified nation at the spiritual/psychological/cultural level, since one of the nations have a french/african set of traditions while the other one have a hispanic/african/taino/catholic tradition. That's why Boyer tried with all his might to eliminate the spanish/catholic traditions, because, while that set of traditions remained on foot, the unification of the island would still be a chimera. The events would prove him right on his assumptions, because the denial of the easterners to adapt to haitian customs and language would be one of the reasons behind the independence movement, the other ones would be the refusal of the dominicans to contribute in the pay of Haiti's independence debt and to surrender the ownership of their lands to the economical ambitions of the haitian elites.

@ DannyVC, you can not deal with the truth so you call me a "redneck". Not every White person is a redneck. And by the way, from reading your postings you fit the description of a "redneck" (One who is regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted sociopolitical attitude).

@Lautaro, what is the difference between a French Catholic tradition and a Spanish Catholic tradition?

Dominican Today removed my historical facts about Haiti and DR. This is not fair. JRRubirosa, FranktheTank, and DannyVC posted racist comments but they are not removed but I post facts and they are removed.

@JOHNUSA: I guess it was because the discussion was getting out of control.

@DaniDr: Even if the discussion was getting out of control why would Dominican Today censor the truth. The truth has to be known.

I don;t degrade haitians for fun but it comes to an end that if Dominicans don't use common sense and brain cells Haitians will overpover us and take advantage in the near future.
What I don't really like about hatians is that they taking advantage from us and are still complaining and lying to the world about our country.
People in this blog (general) don't see the big picture of what I'm trying to say (regardless of how bad Haiti is doing or not) is up to haitians to go the extra mile and do some extra effort to correct the out of order situation and make an example to the rest of the planet.
What I dislike always is why like I say many times is all animosity that We receive in exchange (To mention for 5th time for example trying to kill Leonel Fernandez) if the Dominican Military wouldn't do their job by their book our president would be dead today and at what cost??
So please dear haitians focus and get your act together, instead of whinning about reality once again GROW UP.

Be realistic and honest because if you don't want help yourselfs who will be??
Regardes if We Dominicans are rascist or not???
Whose fault is that??
Us for being realistic or Haitians for being dreamers?
If you want to be civilised teach yourselfs how to be better human beings not destroying the enviroment, not believing in vodoo and learning to take responsability before blaming others for your own faults.

Instead of picking on Dominicans for being light or dark skin look at Southafrica after the apartheid and learn a positive lesson (80% black and 20% white) Nelson Mandela 30 years in prison and teaching his own people and the rest of the planet to wait and see his class.
You don't teach others by BS and bla, bla but with actions, good manners, education and good will

Last friday was the third anniversary of the death of 26 haitians who suffocated to death in a dominican people smuggling van.
THis is my photo montage of the events on the border following the deaths
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjZBDPVv9Z0

RIP

To Kenjesuita: please and don't trying to tell me that this 26 haitians die because it is our fault too(That will be the last thing in political correctness) that I want to hear from anybody in this planet.
Is like Dominicans going by boat to Puerto Rico and if God forbidding something happens to them We blame Puerto ricans for not reason.

I'm not blaming anyone in particular. Corruption on both sides of the border is to blame. And when you say "our fault" who is us? It seems you are hell-bent on Dominican tribalism and cannot see anyone's point of view apart from your own. Being proud of your Dominican heritage does not mean you have to see the whole world in terms of blaming others.

What I'm trying to say, mr. John, is that no matter how close the two nations might be on the racial front and the good intentions of people from both sides, the cultural differences (starting with the language ones), might be enough to keep both nations apart. Surely you've seen that Haiti/DR is not the only case over the globe of two nations living at odds on the same geographical space, just to name a few: Cyprus, an island nation where the turkish and greek cultures are battling for supremacy; the one of the former Czechoslovakia, where all it took was for the communist system to disappear for the cultural differences to arise again in all their fury, between others.

When talking about their french/spanish differences, mr. John, I was talking about the different historical development of both cultures over the island. In the Spanish side, no matter what the historians say about the racist nature of our society, the african slave wasn't treated as badly as he/she was on the french side, and more importantly, they were educated so thoroughly on religious matters that they forgot almost everything about their mother Africa and took for their own some of the customs of their spanish masters. On the french side, the french slave masters didn't give a damn about the slaves religious education, or about educating them at all, that's why the slaves developed a religion of their own (voodoo) which is a syncretism or mix of european traditions with the ones of the different african nations, and developed a language of their own (creole), which is a mix of african dialects with norman french, laced with some spanish, english and taino words. (cont...)

(cont...). In conclusion, mr. John, the historical backgrounds of both nations have in my opinion, dictated the following differences between them: on the haitian side, there will always be a lingering resentment against anything european, because they'll always associate it with the exclusion and exploitation that the african masses suffered on colonial times, furthermore, having an independent culture of their own will tend emphasize this separation, reinforcing localism. On the dominican side, almost all the sectors of the society tend to identify themselves, one way or another, with european/american cultural forms, associating them with material progress and advancement, hence everything that tends to celebrate africanism will almost always be frowned upon, because, thinking on a westernized mindset, the dominican will always associate anything african with tribalism and backwardness. This is the complex that some dominican sociologist tend to name as "Guacanagarix complex" (cnt)

(Cont..) named so after the Taino chieftain that, in order to ingratiate himself with the spaniards, turned traitor to his brethen. That's why you can find that, on the DR independence process against Haiti, the people of black/coloured descent were the ones which fought for it the more fiercely (examples: Francisco Del Rosario Sanchez, Antonio Duverge, Juana Saltitopa), because even though the haitian authorities were the ones to abolish slavery, this act was null and void, because slavery on the eastern side was only on letter and not on practice (in the DR, written laws have always been pieces of paper), the economy of the eastern side being one of cattle ranching, the social relations of this being of a paternalistic sort, usually involving the "master" and the "slave" sharing the dangers of hunting in the wilderness or having meals on the same table in the "casa grande", something that would have been a motive of scandal on the plantation system of colonial Haiti.

well said! Lautaro.

@Lautaro: You make me laugh by trying to downplay slavery.

Lautaro said (even though the haitian authorities were the ones to abolish slavery, this act was null and void, because slavery on the eastern side was only on letter and not on practice (in the DR, written laws have always been pieces of paper), the economy of the eastern side being one of cattle ranching, the social relations of this being of a paternalistic sort, usually involving the "master" and the "slave" sharing the dangers of hunting in the wilderness or having meals on the same table in the "casa grande"). LOL. This is funny. This is were the slaves accepted the fact that they can only be slaves and nothing else.

Mr. John, I don't know if you're being stubborn on purpose or plain not understanding what I am saying, but again: what I'm trying to say is that the plantation whip-on-back-work-to-the-death-keep-on-barracks slavery that existed on colonial Haiti DID NOT exist on the eastern side, that the "master" and the "slave" on this country were on the SAME economical footing. That the obscene wealth displayed by the whites of colonial Haiti was an unknown thing to the austere spanish ranchers and that the deadly physical toiling of the slave in the western side was unknown to the one on the eastern side, who was a free man in all but name, having the permission to roam the countryside as they pleased and work for different hateros for a meagre salary (but a salary nonetheless) as jornalero ensured by the colonial authorities, but who remained with their "masters", because he could not hope to survive alone on the wilderness without risking certain death by hunger. Do you get my meaning now?

@ Lautaro: Once again, we Americans are dying with laughter reading your post. Wish we can meet someday.

From my point of view you're the one who is making this debate longer than necessary, mr. John, because I'm alluding to obvious cultural economical differences within a geographical space, something that seems to escape your reasoning, somehow. Any student of sociology, history and economics would have grasped my meaning ages ago. I've discussed this point with almost any scholar that I'm acquainted with (even the african supremacist ones) and they all agree with me that the slavery nomenclatura of the haitian colonial case can't be applied to explain the DR's hatero or cattle ranching system, furthermore, this paternal closeness between the hatero "masters" and their "slaves" or jornaleros paved the way for the establishment of caudillismo during the first years of the DR, as Pedro Santana's case would show, and later, after the War with Spain, the caudillismo of Baez, Luperon, Lilís, Mon Caceres and others.

I'm not laughing. I've taking dominican history courses and everything he has mentioned about the history is true and all the sociological reasoning makes sense. I'm not sure what you are adding to the subject JOHNUSA; what is your point? what is your stance on the issue? all I see is you laughing. Are you one of those who believe both countries should be one? is that it?

All of the above contributors have missed the point. Haiti and Dominican Republic are not competing for territory. The island has a clearly defined border, visa laws, working permits passports, taxes etc.....The problem is poverty - and poverty leads to desperation to survive. Some survive by working their body to the grave in dominican plantations. Some take the easy option and turn to corruption and crime. Poverty is a univeral problem and not unique to Haiti and the Dominican Republic.