The purchase of these aircraft are of a pure economical intent to get some more money into Leonel and his cronies pockets and nothing to do with drug security.

The DR dosen't have the cash to pay for electricity demand after it pockets all revenues.

The police do not have fuel to patrol at night how are they going to pay for fuel for these aircraft.

This is just another money grab for the politicians and nothing to do with national security.

The purchase of these aircraft are of a pure economical intent to get some more money into Leonel and his cronies pockets and nothing to do with drug security.

The DR dosen't have the cash to pay for electricity demand after it pockets all revenues.

The police do not have fuel to patrol at night how are they going to pay for fuel for these aircraft.

This is just another money grab for the politicians and nothing to do with national security.

True,true. Right on.

in the past the shoot down policy has proven to be a mistake.....It adds little and can be very dangerous when left to the discretion of inexperienced people

Like I've stated on another thread:

The US is providing real time air surveillance and monitoring to the Colombian air force, including while intercepting and shooting down planes of suspected drug runners. The Colombians are flying the Super Tucano as well, so what's the difference?

GC
It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing to a shoot down policy, it is a matter of the US and it's closest allies reserving the right to intercepts and preemptive action to themselves and denying a sovereign state the right to control it's airspace as it sees fit..

Pass the law and so be it! This is a sovereign country, Dominicans are not babies sucking tit.
The air force pilots should have the right to shoot down any aircraft that are violating Dominican airspace illegally, with the approval of their superior officers in Dominican Republic, not a the sole discretion of the pilots.
Once I believe a friendly government shot down a civilian airplane carrying some US missionaries by mistake in Colombia or another country. And it created a lot of bad press.
This warning is intimidating and threatening "and end to assistance in aerial tracking in real time"
and should be protested by the DR government.
Are we a sovereign state with the right to control our own airspace or what?
This communique should have been worded differently as a request not a threat.

if the US did not put this proviso on the aid provided they would be blamed for the incident ....they have learned over many years that Latinos are cry babies and blame the USA for everything.....Go home Yanqui and take me with you

They don't need the USA they have Hugo..

A compromise would be to do what the US does , not shoot first but send a couple F-16's out to first try and communicate with the offender then escort them to the nearest air strip.

If they try and evade the escort then shoot a couple warning shots. If the warning shots don't work then take force them to land and as a last resort take them out..

One incident of shooting down the wrong airplane will surely bring the wrath of the entire world upon the DR.

First, how can you protest that the US stop giving free assistance to the DR air force with real time tracking. It was a free cooperating gift that they have been giving for years to help. Typical "da me algo" attitude.

Second, yes this is a sovereign state and this sovereign state chose to buy a bunch of overpriced airplanes and not the equipment they need to use them effectively (like real time tracking)

Third, the US is not saying the the DR does not have the right to shoot down planes in their airspace, as a matter of fact they are indirectly implying that YES the DR not only has that right but they also have the right to choose which planse to shoot down. In recognition of that soveirgnty the US can not "assist" them to shoot down planes becuase the US would be partially responsible for planse that get shot down without having the ability to participate in the decision process of which planes to shoot down and when.

Wow, I can't believe! I am actually agreeing with GC on some things... Incredible!

Although I have been an advocate of more security in the airspace and shooting down illegal planes in aerospace... I am however, very nervous about the RD Gov and Dominicans having this power and NOT doing total due diligence and being too trigger happy without proper authority! I mean, come on...we all know the RD Gov track record on screwing things up! Right? Right!

I would feel more comfortable with the US in the drivers seat on this (even though the RD is an independent nation). I am not just worried about bad press but the loss of lives if a mistake is made. We all fly in and out of the RD, right? I just do NOT trust the RD Gov nor military on this issue. And we only see the tip-of-the-iceberg on the level of corruption in RD Gov, Military etc etc.
Along with Jim's comment above, the RD is in NO financial position to pay for the "adequate" checks and balances on shoot downs...

These are the same people that would guard the airspace.

17 year-old Israel Polanco of gunfire during a confrontation between activists and police agents, amid a protest in San Francisco de Macorís (northeast), said the strike organizers.

I am so tired of somany brothers of our mother land talking so much trash. We all like to go back have a great vacation but all we do is talk junk we don't even try to partisapate in making it better. We say we love our patria but look we get eduacated some were else and do nothing. It is long over do that we should stand up. Stop talking so much of leonel and please chavez he would just bring more problems to our country drugs are here and there we can not only blame our the ladrones of our patria because they are wurse here in the USA.

What is the US planning to do - invade DR? Of course a nation has the right to protect its airspace. No wonder the US is loosing so many friends.
S.

Well, my only question is how capable is the DR military? I see how the police behave in civil matters and I do not agree that abusive egomaniacs on a power trip should be allowed such risky power, before you know we'll see the news of a downed commercial jet.

ABC, why do you believe the US wants to invade DR?

They're basically washing their hands of a very realistic possibility once DR starts shooting " a mega lawsuit" brought about by relatives of a downed commercial airplane.

JD - Chill there Iceman. They are not going to be armed with rockets. They will be using cannons so it is not like they will be "Top Gunning" shit out of the sky with a touch of a button based on a radar blip (besides they don't even have radar).

To shoot something down they will need to be close in, visual and pump quite a few rounds into the wild blue yonder before they hit anything. There are not likely to be any "opps, just down'ed Jet Blue".

- Mavrick

MalditoGringo, thanks for your response. Although this was an attempt to make me feel better but when I review your comments...

The RD air force will be "using cannons", "they do NOT have radar", "they need to fly close" (as in near miss or collision" etc.

Wow, MG - if your comments are suppose to make me feel better & secure ...than I would really hate for you to make me feel bad & unsafe.

As much as I love the DR and its beautiful culture and women. If this law is passed then I would significantly reduce my travels there. Cap Cana and other tourism spots are already suffering enough from the financial crisis negative spillover.

We just saw the due diligence (used loosely) of the RD police/military in San Francisco.

JD - intelligent people who dwell on topics over which they have no knowledge usually come to the conclusion "I do not know." Granted that living here people can grow to mistrust authorities because we tend to witness more questionable or downright indefensible errors of judgment by those that are supposed to "know" than we normally face in more "developed" countries but to let ones life decisions be ruled by complete mistrust of anything that doesn't make sense to you in your own myopic world is kind of paranoid in my view.

You are well within your rights to not get on a plane that fly anywhere near the DR anymore if you want but if you are really concerned because there is a bunch of terms in a newspaper article that you don't understand then you might choose to do a little research and self-education before radically altering your life.

Do you mean to say that you are more concerned about Dominican air force pilots making a mistake because of their culture than you are of amateur criminal pilots running small planes through Dominican air space at night with no lights and avoiding radio and radar coverage?

Think about it
Q: you know what the difference was between the fear you have of Dominican air force pilots and your lack of fear of drug runner pilots?
A: Ignorance.

P.S. You are using the term "due dilligence" incorrectly.

Ever since the Coast Guard has reduced the scope of their surveillance to stop illegal emigration to PR and the U.S. Navy has sent most its ships to the Persian Gulf (to attend another problem), DR + Haiti are bombarded continuously with drugs from the air and sea. This has led to a significant increase in crimes, robberies, civil desobidence, drug addicts, etc. The U.S. removed its radar from Pedernales and now it is tellings us no to do anything on the incoming invasion of drugs? F*CK THEM! We are proceeding to get the freaking planes. Maintenance, fuel, night flying training, and live radar detection will come in time but at the moment. WE MUST DO SOMETHING! STATUS QUO IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!

In reality the problem is not a technical one; it is a political one. There are too many politicians and military living off this cash. It goes right to the top. It has ever since Jorge Blanco when they made drugs and money laundering the staple of party revenues. Only recently did LF and company learn to balance that with bank fraud but since that party blew up in everyone's face the only things left to make cash anymore (if you are a politician with no actual marketable skills) is drugs and Brazil.

Well my 2 cents is that the only countries that used this rule recently (last 20 yeras) USSR, shot down an airliner with several hundreds on board. Trained russian pilot mistook a Korean 747 for reccon flight. Ecuador or Peru shot down missionaries instead of drug runners. What about the recent (2004) russian fired SAM missed drone and hit airliner.

It is not about how dumb anyone is, we have had several friendly fire deaths in IRAQ, and Afghanistan. Tension builds and corners are cut. The recent Cessna crash in Barahona is indicative of what happenes if you track, pursue and block the plane from unloading and refueling. Most pilots will choose to land and not die. If you do it well, which they can, you make the enterprise not profitable.

abr you have told the story correctly ....there is no need for drastic measures like shooting down cessnas...Unless you are castro and you use Migs to shoot Cessnas down in international waters for dropping pamphlets

Now as a Pilot who flies PR to DR at least 2 times a month, you have aircraft all over the place. Controllers with marginal english, they know all the aeronautical terms but get lost in common conversation. DELTA 1234 I have a passenger in cardiac distress, requiere EMS services at gate. Las Americas what happen with you. Another plane translated.

I had my plane surrounded by CESA with guns, for " illegal landing"and all the tower had requested was License# - name. SDQ approach, had miscopied and confused me with another aircraft. They had me 20 miles east of Punta Cana and I was 20 east of Las Americas. I called tower on a portable radio so the 20 idiots of CESA could hear the tower say I had not landed illegally, just need info. The CESA Capt said , these men are new and do not know yet. Yes new because the old got fired for drug trafficking.

The bad guys monitor all aircraft and military frequencies. The Colombians do not care if we shoot down a plane with some idiot pilot. It would be a good trade, for not being tracked in DR by US. As they would only have to avoid the DR military and not the Coast Guard and US Customs. They could get more flights in, anyway in 1 year none of the Tucanos will work and the engines will be sold.

I am shocked again yes shocked

Main objective is to down CIA planes. US pilots sometimes can't navigate - famously the US lost a whole squadron over the Caribb as the pilots were going in the wrond direction. Now there are near misses as pilots fall asleep.
S.

you just have bad dreams!

Exactly, pilots screw up all the time. So do controllers. You get suspended, fined or fired. But now the penalty could be death. Just see how many guys get stranded near Washington DC every month, and have to be pursued and forced to land. You think DC has good radars?

The guys in Hawaii, asleep. Some guy caught up in weather and came in too low with a bad radio. The golfer with the dead crew (at least they were already dead) Many bad scenarios. Most affected would be Dominicans.

But it is not that hard, and maybe, we look at this later. But to go from no planes at all, to fighters shooting. Show me that pursuit, and in-ability to land or make the drop do not work.

Then again, if this is the train of thought, " we kill flying drug traffickers". Why not use it for the corrupt military that always seem to be helping these trafickers. Hey! you are a military officer, caught in drug trade shot on the spot. Must be just as effective.

ABR - are you really a pilot?!?

do not confuse abr23 the aviator with abc200 the wanker

Yes a private pilot, own my own small aircraft. I am not faulting anyone with being dumb. I have seen dumb Navy aces. Remember the two pilots that hit a ski lift cable in Italy, killed 14 or so. It is just that things happen in sequence, and then eveyone says. Shit how did that happen. The Army choppers that shot up American tanks in the Kuwait war (Gulf 1). I know guys who have travelled to DR with bad transponders, bad radios Stupid yes, deserve to be shot out of the sky, no.

Want to really be scared, George W. Bush, flew for the Air force (reserves). You think he may shoot down the wrong plane.

People who fly in planes stand the risk of being shot down. There are too many flights to properly controt. If air tickets were rationed to 1 trip a year per person then much unnecessary air traffic could be prevented and full careful traffic control could be implemented. Also fewer large aircraft, say - A380' s would make the task easier. Private avialtion should be limited to essential flights - this would make drug flights much more difficult. School children with binoculars could be part of the civil defense effort to detect unauthorised flights. Airspace needs to be tightly controlled.
S.

wanker from hell says " School children with binoculars could be part of the civil defense effort to detect unauthorized flights. Airspace needs to be tightly controlled." .......the guards on the floor of the insane asylum where you should be held should see that you are tightly controlled. A statement like that is indicative of the fact that you are an imbecile " school children with binoculars part of the civil defense " I think you spent to much time in the subway tunnels hiding from the German Buzz bombs and it has driven you insane { mentally challenged}

Part of CCF weapon training could include ground to air missiles. Stealth aircraft and drones are difficult to see with radar. So this is entirely relevant.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/ne....MAKE_CADET_TRAINING_MANDATORY.asp
Other forces are buying ground to air missiles.
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?199187
Israel is tightly contolling airspace:
http://www.flightglobal.com/artic....aircraft-approaching-israeli.html
GC go on a SWAT course - then you can recognise aircraft.
http://www.critraining.com/
S.

ABC 200, how, wise of you (NOT), in your observations. The truth of the matter, is that the great surge and development of civilian aviation came from all the Americans and Canadians, who acquired their love of aviation as they volunteered to fly for the RAF and later went to Europe with the Army Air Corps. I feel I do not need to refresh your memory as to what they were there to do and who they went to help.

After the war they, pursued their passion and passed it on to others.

So, the fact that you post your comments in the King's English and not in German, would be sufficient proof that these flyers did an outstanding job.

By your premise we should, ban personal cars to make, highways safer and have everyone in buses.

Times are trying but we have not reached the point where we need to have a Bachata version of Vera Lynn's We'll Meet Again.

or Lili Marlene or the White Cliffs of Dover.which by the way the wanker abc should be thrown over and he cannot fly like a bluebird

Yes, of course there were brave US airmen in the Spanish Civil War and Second World War at a time when their leaders and busnessmen were busy arming Hilter. No dispute.
http://www.libs.uga.edu/flyers/
Ford even got a medal from Hitler.
http://www.traces.org/henryford.html
Drug abuse in the US is increasing. Society has made the choice to ban certain drugs, not cars. I take note that probably you support the right of people to buy and take all drugs and of course you would see little wrong in using your plane to import drugs if you were not be found out.
I see where you are coming from.
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/miron/files/masters_blog.pdf
Hence strict airspace control would be against your interests.
By the way now flying model aircraft, which are not unlike unmanned drones, or building small rockets would be better preparation for any future war.
After all in the middle ages archery practice was considered vital.
S.
S.

over the cliffs you go wanker....." School children with binoculars could be part of the civil defense effort to detect unauthorized flights. Airspace needs to be tightly controlled.

Staying on history, your views explain why Chamberlin, wanted to make nice with HITLER, maybe Henry Ford agreed with that view. I also now understand why Lindbergh wanted to stay out of WW2, he may have forseen that 50 years hence their would be someone, giving history a SPIN.


OK guys, lets get some G-2, I suspect that Ghoulish has moved to England and gotten a new e-mail account. Very few can maintain, these views slightly to the left of Atilla The Hun.

Your views are late in coming. Airspace control, like gun control, the only ones that do not register guns are criminals and the only ones that will not inform of their flights are criminals. There are already millions of aircraft. So even if you ban them, they will still have planes for the next 100 years. Same thing with guns. If you stop production today it would be 30 years, before it had any effect.

Traffickers are already using drones in the US/ Mexico, border.

Maybe you already fly drones for your missions to bring fine wine and US wiskey to the DR. Experience is that it is easier to maintain a gun free zone - e.g. a school than allow just some guns. Israili airspace is difficutlt to enter - if you do not have permission you will be shot down. Patriot and other missile systems are far more effective without FOF systems. Permanenty closed airspace is a very effective tool. Far from being left wing I think my views are sensible and practical. Why is Israel getting a new positive identification system? It may also be used in Europe. There is no spin on history. Russia could assist in the region.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20081....-russia-cuba-defense-b64c7e7.html
Through ALBA the airspace sytem could improve.
S.

Israel lives in a POLICE state to maintain it's security. Even after 9-11, we do not want that. We would prefer that some drug planes get through rather than ban all aviation from flying into the DR.

So it's a matter of how much, one is willing to sacrafice, in order to curtail the problem. Not just my recreational flying, what about the millionaires who have jets, companies who do business, air ambulances with sick, crop dusting and photography. All this will be affected. Aviation is lmited by insurance, that is why so few fly to Haiti, nothing there anyway. American Companies refuse to include Haiti as a destination, because of thefts and corruption
.
We pass this bill and Jet's may refuse or be restricted to fly to DR, ones that do will increase $.

I do think this is a "WAG THE DOG" issue, as the Americans should be glad to have DR Ghurkas get rid of the drug planes. So why are they against it? Maybe it's morals and ethics, those were shot down in DR years ago.

Bye the way the PRD delegation in the Chamber of Deputies has just delayed the voting on the resolution.

I agree that DR is a souverighn Nation and if they want to shoot aircraft in their territory they may.

But the USA has the right as well not to give the DR information on any aircraft heading towards the DR.

I still think some plan is required. Planes crashing and landing in obcure roads etc. is not desirable either for the people of the country or aviation generally. A small number of planes cannot intercept and supervise a large number of planes. Perhaps some closed airspace with given corridors and requiring international incoming non-commercial flights to land for inspection etc. at one or two airports might work. Also restrictions on night filying for non-commercial flights combined with given routes that avoid population centres, dangerous or mountain terrain where radar is less effective might work. Also pre-registration of non-commerical pilots, passengers, cargoes. At some time common standards for General Aviation could exist for Caribb.
S.

common standards do exist and have existed for some time wanker .....but not for planes flying at 200 feet and trying to avoid detection

That is why you need sharp eyed observers with binoculars or AWACS etc. to detect. Common standards are evolving not there now. San Juan Accord etc.
http://www.jonesbahamas.com/?c=45&a=14610
Maybe the islands get USA to provide an AWACS.
S.

Provide AWACS? are you out of your gourd...This is up there with waking up children with their binocs in the middle of the night to go stand their" hunt the drug dealer watch."...Wanker shall we arm the children with the binocs with M16s........over the white cliffs of Dover you go wanker....." School children with binoculars could be part of the civil defense effort to detect unauthorized flights. Airspace needs to be tightly controlled.....Backed up by freeby Awacs from Uncle Sugar

Those factors you mention, on pre-flight requirements and pilot info do exist. One is handed directly over from USA space to DR airspace and given altitude and headingn and required to give name, license, fuel and passengers. With new radar at Punta Cana they can see if you deviate from that.
But if the last Supervisor of the RADAR in Barahona (2002) was a CPT who was identified by US as helping drug planes and left the DR. The ex chief airforce controller assigned to DR Civ Aviation, was arrested in La Romana smuggling $1,million dollars from drug proceeds in PR. In Feb DNCD officers arrested several men including a DR Air Force Lt, receiving a drop near Higuey with an aviaton radio. The former chef of Staff Air Force authorized building the private airport for Cpt Quirino his childhod freind. Quirino had a helicopter so why did they do a 3,000ft strip. The recent Navy thing is just a progression of events. It has been going on for years.

As a POST SCRIPT. El Listin reports that DR authorities are investigating who stole 1km of wires for the runway lights in Las Americas. The wire was connected and working. This was done from a restricted area which is guarded 24/7 by CESA agents.

We need some of those binoculars for the kids in Boca Chica to watch the airport.