SANTO DOMINGO. - The Jesuit Refugees and Migrants Service (SJRM) of the Dominican Republic asked the presidential candidates to include the topic of Haitian immigration in their government programs.
The organization called on Dominican society to demand that the presidential hopefuls to "seriously and with a humane sense" analyze the country Haitian immigration. They said the issue must be seen as a national priority, to make an integral migratory policy possible.
The Jesuits list among the points to discuss by the candidates the regularization of immigration, since in their view the country has no mechanism to regulate the presence of Haitians, many of them residing in this territory for years.
It said although the country benefits from cheap Haitian manual labor, "the State doesn’t assume its responsibility to guarantee a dignified treatment in its territory; much on the contrary, it has chosen to leave the Haitian immigrants in a state of irregularity and unprotected."
"When the immigrants establish themselves in a country they need health, education and housing services from the receptor State, according to the commitments assumed with the international community," the SJRM said, adding that it’s also important that deportations must be conducted within a framework of legality and respect.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Holy cow, what a news for my beloved friends, have a good time with your opinions.
Guess the one after me is going to be my best buddy in these forum MR PERCEPTION.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2008 10:43 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The jesuits are dreaming if they think that the candidates would do that, considering that the people which are making profits with the exploitation of those inmigrants are the same ones which finance the electoral campaigns of those candidates (i.e. sugar and agrarian magnates, construction consortiums and the like). This would only end if the "Embassy" intervenes and ends their implicit endorsement to these sectors, and that is a tall order, because they need to have those native elites in place and content in order to counter the advance of the "chavismo" on the region as they did with communism in the Cold War.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, I've been reluctant to post due to the playground fights but I must say that you are absolutely right. I dont see this happening any time soon although it must be a priority. I am also a firm believer of fairness so I would like this organization to put pressure on the haitian government as well to curtail the illegal haitian migration. it takes two to tango
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2008 10:58 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It doesn't hurt them to give it a try, mr. jabao. The civil rights movement on the US and South Africa faced almost impossible odds compared to this situation and they end up winning many important victories, so it's almost a temptation to hope for those victories to happen over here too. The other factor that have been crucial on the maintainance of this status quo is the relative disorganization of the civil society in both countries, with only a few organizations actually carrying on the struggle.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Hmmm....The Dominican Presidential Candidates don't like talking about the Haitian immigration problem but as soon as the lights go off in the D.R. their have no problem bashing Haitians...When they are being investigated on fraud charges they bash Haitians...When a woman gets found murdered in Santiago, they bash Haitians.....When the "quality of life" goes down, they bash Haitians. When property value decreases, they bash Haitians...When Haitians dont want to eat infected chickens, they still bash Haitians. Im waiting to see what comes next...
From: Haiti
Jemesouviens, the haitians in the DRhave been used as a scapegoat for centuries and will continue to be in the dominican society until negative stereotypes and propaganda that we (haitians) are the enemy to the dominican state. From my observation and knowledge of both countries very well I have to say that both governments are at fault. I am all for improving the rights of haitians in the DR but we can't put all the blame on them nor the responsibilities. The haitian government needs to take care of her citizens so that haitians won't cross the border illegally in search for a better life the least place DR another poor country. The reality is haitians put more into the economy than they take out and have contributed to the growth of the economy..again nothing new even some of there heroes were haitian descent or haitian nationals. Civil rights of haitians needs to be respect in the DR and in Haiti too. We can't solve the problem if the root of it still remains an issue.
From: Haiti
Jemesouviens, li lè pou nou corriger pwobleme lakay nou. Pou nou fè dominikain respecter nou. Pwobleme la, fok nou résoudre li lakay nou avant. Ayiti se yon beaux pays ki gen anpil possibilité. C'est un pays merveilleux. Lautaro, indeed there is hope and for the betterment of both countries alot of things needs to be brought out to the light and tackled in a constructive matter rather than rant. Unfortunately, the haitian migration to the DR is never on the agenda of the political parties because they benefit from their precarious state in the DR. I remember the pan american games the DR goverment hired haitians to clean up the area and other work. After the job was completed, trucks were waiting to round them up "without paying them" to the border. This type of corrupt tactics needs to end and civil rights of the haitiains in this sector needs to be respected. Also creole should be implemented in public facilities:) and taught in the schools
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2008 12:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
A problem that is common on both countries is the reluctance of the political class to let people from the diaspora to play a major role on local politics. Even though both governments have taken steps to correct this issue, the results are still leaving a lot to be desired.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2008 12:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
More than implementing it, mr. jabao, the school programs need to be reformed in order to stimulate the students to be producers of knowledge, not mere consumers of it, because the current structure of it doesn't stimulate the abundance of rational thinking, instead, it only promotes the blind following and acceptance of what is told on the books, without analyzing or deconstructing the data. The production of knowledge must be stimulated in both languages (spanish/creole) because the majority of the books used on our schools are of editorial houses of the US (McGraw Hill, Prentice Hall, etc.), and it's rather obvious that the problems and info of these books will only be appliable to the reality of the US, which makes them rather unfit for educating professionals that would tackle the island's problems on the future.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Sure is dominican's fault whatever haitians face on a daily basis. sure We Dominicans are to blame and cursed out because the poor haitians don't have what they deserve.
Dominicans are bad because they don't help women in the hospital, dominicans shoul help haiti more opening their borders , dominicans should let the haitians do as they please in DR.
Is not enough that haitians are paying less than dominicans in our colleges, is not enough that almost half of the children born in Santiago hospitals are (haitians), is not enough that the dominican goverment is asking United nations to help haiti more, is not enough that haitian goverment in order to blackmail dominican business to do business in a ilegal way with a company in florida (THE BIG ISSUE IS THE LIES TO THE BUSINESS ITSELF), is not enough that Sonia Pierre benefit herself by lying to the international comunnity and at the same time using ilegal ways to obtain her Dominican Status
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(Cont) in US She would be stripped automatically for lying, is not enough that 2 priests adopted dozens of haitian children to protect them, is not enough that on christmas time the Priest Regino in the border harass and push the Dominican army to let haitians back to dominican soil and they comply accordinlgy.
Is not enough that haitians walk and act freely in dominican soil, is not enough that The haitians have being granted so many rights by the most pro haitian dominican president in Dominican History and He almost got killed when he visit their country fews years ago.
At the same time Rene Preval their president has being in Dominican Republic so many times and every dominican respect him, We never tried to kill him.
Is not enough that when Jean Bertrand Aristide was president He insulted Juan Pablo Duarte legacy by saying that it He ever went to Dominican Republic He wasn't supposed to drive on any road or highway with the dominican father's founding name on it.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(Cont) is not enough that so many Haitians are going to our colleges and getting the best education that they could afford and being respected and taught by dominican teachers.
Is not enough that most of the people in these forums are Haitians and pro haitians and most
of the times bash out and disrespect Dominican Republic in a nice and sometimes in a
uneducated way, You are allow your right of opinion without being censored.
So I need to know what else Haitians expect from Dominican Republic and Dominicans???
Haiti and Haitians have to organized their out of place country and grow up, get mature, organize the mess that they have.
United nations are in Haiti and this says a lot about their law and order....
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to: JabaoHaitian,
Well I do agree with almost everything you've said except for one...That is that "Creole should be implemented in D.R. more". With all due respect to "our' people but if they want to see "Creole" more often they need to go back to Haiti. There's a specific reason as to why they see Spanish everywhere in D.R. and why they see Creole/French everywhere in Haiti...
From: Haiti
SankyPanky, what are you ranting about? It is obvious you have issues with haitians period and suffer from low self esteem. You are not making sense and really don't have anything good to say about your neighbors. What have we (haitians) done to you? Did some haitiano take your girl from you? Estoy harto de tus comentarios tan negativo. Tu eres un cobarde. Tu prefieres hablar vainas en la red en los EEUU(Nueva Yol). Por favor escríbeme en español si puedes. Tú eres dominicano( de descendencia española)..háblame en tu propia lengua... Qué lástima, no sabes escribir ni inglés ni español... Discúlpeme pero ya no puedo soportar más tu prepotencia..Ese tipo es una verguenza de la comunidad dominicana. This is not a joke and I wish you stop telling lies..in your dialect "eres un jablador" Go play baseball or something.Geez..is this guy serious? U would think that an immigrant would have compassion for foreignors in his/her native country. Campos will always be campos.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, indeed both government would prefer to keep the diaspora of both nations outside of the roundtable but love taking in their remesas. DR has done alot to at least make the dominican diaspora feel that they are part of the society. We are still struggling with giving haitians abroad dual citizenship which would benefit haiti to some extent. Remember that coming from the diaspora doesn't automatically make one intelligent and less corrupt. It takes someone that really deep down want "change" in both respective countries to overcome centuries of disequality. If you analyze both groups in the government are from the diaspora or studied abroad so same mentality nothing new. Take the character posting..he probably thinks Nueva Yol is the whole USA and he lives there..jajja.couldn't resist. I hope that we catch the bus to progress and equality for both haitians & dominicans in there respective country.
From: Haiti
Jemesouviens, the majority of haitians speak spanish within 6months of getting to the DR. Some of us speak it better than dominicans. Implementing creole/french in the DR is for the dominicans to learn our language for intercultural reasons and business. We have so much potential to be all we can be. I don't want us to become like the hispanics in the USA..but learning another language is always a plus..
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
"Speak better spanish than dominicans same as dominicans speak better creole than haitians"
Does this make sense??????
Sure keep dreaming about all your plans, Don't know your agenda but let's see what happens
To me doesn't make any sense, so why you guys are pushing for something that only benefits haitians agenda??
From: Haiti
SankyPanky,
Please write in your beloved descendants language. I find it wierd that an elite descendant of WHITE spaniards doesn't dominate his mother tongue. Wait a haitian is telling a dominican to write in spanish and the domincan can't..You tell me what's wrong with this picture..jajja.. Oh yeah, it dawn on me that you come from an analphabet family that had to migrate to the usa and spew diatribes towards haitians in the same precarious position you were/are in. USA has been good to you but you still cant speak proper english..all that free public assistance and you can't catch up..me thinks you have been put in your place. ok.speak to be in your dialect..broder to' vien..are you going to let a haitian put you in your place and look down at you like that..say it ain't pana. I guess Jean takes la india..jajjajaj. I have some boots that needs to be clean my friend..from now on..stay in your place. some dumbinican you are..duarte,sanchez mella would be ashamed of you..jajaj.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To Jabao haitian: Keep dreaming with your good and postive ideas that want to damage the dominican constitution.
Guess you sound like a type of person that likes to research and find the truth (I LIKE THIS POINT)
So if the Dominican and Haitian constitution explains clear who is entitled to be a citizen why you pushing and dreaming about something imposible.
For you bullying me, I take your opinions in the same educated way that you behave in your comments and same behavior and animosity that your fellow countrymen have against QUISQUEYA.
I never had or intended to apply for welfare, Don't need to because always work hard and right now have a good business position.
The only good benefit for haitians to asimilate to the dominican culture would be to hopefully learn some good manners, learn to care about the enviroment and learn to be proactive with businesses and a good and decent society.
The only reason why I think you have so much anger is because You want to
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) force us to accept your agenda, We don't need to or have to, Dominicans are not obbligated or mandate to learn CREOLE that sounds like a pushy issue on your side, We don't even force you or haitians to learn spanish (this is a personal choice)
On my humble and decent opinion if you have so many noble and good ideas about Haiti ,why you don't do as some people already suggested to Sonia Pierre, go back or stay in Haiti and from there do your best to help your country, not making any false claims or statements against DR.
On Duarte, Sanchez y Mella (thanks for not offending their memory) but I think they are 100% proud of me right now because they see me from the afterlife and see the way That I keep defending the motherland the way They did it from people like you that still mention the boot like if We would be in the year 1821.
Last but not least I'm still trying to get the point why you and your brothers don't design and promote your own website
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) so everybody could promote, express and feel happy about creating a common agenda for everybody.
I think is a cowardice that all your people have the freedom and are not banned or blocked from expressing your concerns in these forums and with a very high and inflamatory tone trying to be brave for not reason since you are a guess in this place called "Dominican Today" not "Haitian Today"
On the education side will not debate or fight against your comments since you are the one that lost your tone not me.
Last question is that if according to you HAITIANS are smarther than Dominicans why You are the ones attending our colleges and private educational institutions not the other way around.
On being Spaniard, hispanic, latin or whatever other right definition according to your wisdom, yes indeed We are proud about their colonization (good or bad) what can we do, complain about it or cry about it.
Don't forget my suggestion about creating your own website Mr WISDOM
From: Haiti
JR, I have never talked to people that have nothing positive to say. How ashame Duarte,Sanchez, Mella would be of you. A dominican that doesn't dominate his own language. So if you don't domininate neither language that says alot about you. Did you attend school in the DR? Again you can babble in half english because of the opportunities USA has given you. I understand ur hatred. In the USA you haven't intergrated well an viewed as the black/light skin kid that speaks english funny and in the DR haitians and dominicans perceive u as a Dom-york that cant finish one sentence without adding urban english. Thus, you are stuck my friend better yet a reject in both society. Your only sense of comfort is to try to humiliate your haitian neighbors. You try to read up on dominican history but due to your lack of comprehension obtain nada broder. Your great founding fathers would deport you to haiti...and then haiti will send u back..jajja.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
If you look C l O S E to my comments and with all due respect I'm always defending and fighting for justice so I think that We should have the freedom to defend our space since Your are the one trying to be the macho man of the movie with all your PHD"S opinions since you are the smartest guy in these forums RIGHT??
You and your group try to sugarcoated and smooth definitions so it doesn't look politically incorrect but at the end (The intentions are in the eye of the beholder) and the actions and opinions speak by themselves.
If You and your gang want to have a free space without any brave dominican debating what is derogative against Dominican Republic and feel uncomfortable about I"M SORRY but it won't happen.
Regarding the "Hanky Panky" thanks for the nickname since they are big womanizers and the answer is not I never had any issues with any Haitian brother taking my girl away, If you look at my last name it runs in the blood (Women go after us) "Love and Peace"
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) you very funny and good sense of humor so that says that you are not such a bad person.
To anwer your question dear JABAOHAITIAN thank GOD I was lucky and blessed enough to have the means and chance to go to an excellent Private school and college as well (both catholic) which is the main reason why I love justice and love the truth.
I think that maybe you are the one I should feel sorry regarding the edcuation issue since you are the one with the inflamatory tone and biased comments against us.
Also don't know if you ever travel overseas or maybe you are lucky enough that maybe are living in a harsh place in Haiti and your computer is the only means for you to forget all your bad problems in Haiti, if this is the case I feel sorry.
On the urban english side you want to sound like a PHD so don't get your big point, regarding the York (doiminican) nickname it seemt to be that you never being in the us and specifically here in NY
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) there is good and bad places to live in NY and not all dominicans live in the same area that maybe you are assuming buddy.
Keep the inflamatory remark regarding the boot for yourself since the United Nation (blue helmets) staff are trying to control people like you in Haiti, they are not in Dominican Republic
right now so look around you in Haiti and ask yourself the millior dollar question:
Are they here for fun or are they here for a good humanitarian reason???
From: Haiti
JR man you are something else. my broder..you need a hug my friend. Unfortunately, you were born in the wrong time. You would've made a great soldier during the time of independence of the dominican repbulic. Unfortunately, wearing timberlands and speaking spanglish in day in age hasn't dawned on you that there isn't any war between the two nations. Must be the train going by your bedroom window that has made you lose some of your marbles. I pray for you and hope you get help my friend..seriously, you have some issues. I can see you swiping your metro card in the subway with your braids heading to that hard job. Waiting for that vacation so you can feel like someone back in el barrio en santo domingo..to vien pana..manito..que Dio' te vendiga.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
same to you brother regarding your blessings.
I don't have or intended to have braids or piercing since I wasn't brought up like this. neither I cursed out .
Same like my brothers and friends We never had or will have piercings or any urban style plus I'm almost too old (close to 40) mature enough to behave like a decent and proud man and know how to carry myself in a decent way too, already received many compliments from so many different nationalities and being lucky enough too to interact with so many etnias and in different
levels of class, status and families.
I normally don't take the train (no need to) and going to DR I go every month so once again I being blessed from my God and creator and last but not least don't need to struggle like you mentioned since I have a decent business.
But good try anyway,
From: Haiti
JR, you are almost 40. Please tell me your joking..I was assuming you are a mid 20's going thru and identity crisis. Shame on you, señol. etnia in english is "ethnic group". You should be ashamed of yourself a grown man ablando asi. Im happy that you have several cabbies. That's the difference in USA. A burden immigrant that can't write nor read in his language efficiently(uneducated) can make a decent living with dignity unlike our haitian broders in DR always harassed por sel aitiano. Tome asiento. When did this all start? Your hatred of los haitianos. Did they pick more suger canes than you back en el campo? Talk to me broder..dime to'. pana.. tome una cerbeza.. vien fría..Ok t e'cucho pana..cuentame to'. Let's see if we can resolve your issues..
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Actually it's funny but I believe that your PHD is taking you places Mr(JABAOHAITIAN) in terms of education (ETNIA) comes from the latin term same as "Ethnic group" would be gramatically accepted in English.
Don't have or need to do CABBIES, like I mentioned before my business is a high class and for your personal pain (bad News) dear friend maybe you did it or heard about it from somebody regarding the cabbie business.
Notice that you are doing your best to diminish and degrade my status, feelings and agenda but don't feel bad about it keep trying dear brother.
Don't need either to have a crisis identity since I always follow the right path and the right choice in life, regarding your PHD degree it doesn't look that is helping your genes since it looks that my (UNEDUCATED) behavior is not showing but yours.
My right of speech and justice about the haitians began the day that i noticed that people like you feel and think is right to conduct your personal agenda
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) to take Dr to a dead end with your philosophical, political and personal ideas regarding the way Dominicans are supposed to behave, act, react, analize, follow and take action to make thing s work in the perfect order so Haitians could do as they please in The Dominican Republic.
I think that regardless if You agree or not with my (UNEDUCATED) points of view We have already done enough and if you think same as your brothers and sisters that still not good enough then I think that you guys need to do a selfanalysis and look around to find for a better place.
You already destroyed (IT's TRUE) Haiti right and left and now you looking for a different land to place yourselfs and force a REFERENDUM to be accommodate and welcome.
It's really sad and pathetic that You and your people have so much freedom in DR and here in these forums and nobody block or spam your comments but according to You this is HATE>
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
I guess TRUTH is in the eye of the beholder and according to your EDUCATED and PHD standards is not enough and will never be enough.
So please teach me a little bit of your well advanced ideas and opinions.
I truly believe that Haiti needs people like you in your country promoting good ideas and projects not us, We don't need your advice.
Good try once again trying to diminish my personality, but I guess that your PHD degree is not helping your GENES to behave accordingly and regretfully inform you dear friend and brother that you have poor skills profiling me because if You match (YOU DID IT) but the other way around.
Keep the good work and We will continue having fun and sharing good comments never biased opinions.
Keep in mind my suggestion about creating your own "Haitian Today" in Creole
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To anonymous: Same intention to you brother, good comments and ideas
thanks for your respect and admiration and as long as We have this same kind of communication We will respect each side.
You right believe or not I WILL LOVE TO see HAITI improving since at the end Haitians are human beings and deserve a better life too I'm not selfish on this side.
Believe or not I do bash out my people from time to time when I see sloppy actions or negative behavior, so don't get me wrong I do say the truth if I have to against my own people that's DISCIPLINE and I love and follow Law and Order.
"Love and Peace" and let's keep the good motivation and DISCIPLINE
From: United States
But thats my two cents, i've never been to either country. But i know, that there's no reason for all of this bickering. Haiti used to be the western hemisphere's richest colony. I wish haitians can turn their country to that powerhouse again. Bring tourism back as it was in the 50s, and increase foreign investments. Let's strive for success for both countries. As opposed on competing on which country is better. I can careless if the countries combine or not, my main priority is just educating the people, and breaking that treacherous mold engrained in some people's minds due to colonialism.
Written by: USADR, 7 Feb 2008 7:41 PM
From: United States
To: JabaoHaitian
Why do you bring up the racial ancestry and ability to write in Spanish when debating with JRRubirosa? What does that have to do with anything? And make little jokes like calling him "Sanky Panky"
I ask because I've seen this trend with some of the more extremist Haitian posters on other forums.
My opinion is for the governments of DR/Haiti (w/UN & OAS support) to try to tightly control the border, and for DR to get a very comprehensive immigration plan and a humane way of deporting al illegal Haitians.
I know this all sounds nice & neat on paper, but DR really needs to do this asap for many reasons.
Written by: ny4life, 7 Feb 2008 7:49 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Jabao, you are so anti-Dominican it's not even funny. Haitians don't dominate French neither. That creole you speak is a pigeon french. Most Haitians don't know how to speak, read, or write proper French. This Haitian stuff has to stop getting so much publicity. There are so many better articles on DR on this website that should be given more attention. This debate btw. Haiti and DR will never end until Haiti becomes a better country. Otherwise, they will always be considered subordinate to a Dominican b/c they migrate to DR. This Jabao is the truth and I know it hurts.
From: Dominican Republic
Incredible! about 1,000 people cross the Haitian/Dominican border illegaly and somehow this is encouraged by the Dominican private sector, diplomats, and businessmen! Bologne! Of the two millions Haitians in DR about 112,000 are in agriculture, another 67,000 in construction, and 49,000 in tourism. The rest are just begging and doing anything for a buck!
After this election, the constitution will be edited to completely eliminate loopholes and double meaning language that the illegal use to demand legalization. Deportation will be massive after May 17, 2008!
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To Greenwave: love you already, great comments and very realistic, seems to be that the other gang took a break tonight.
Some change names and identities so they could pass as somebody else.
"Duarte, Sanchez y Mella"
We need to start a revoultion of good values, patriotism and respect for the identity that We inherited from our founding fathers.
From: Dominican Republic
It is a tragic mistake the politicians are not debating the fate (which should be only deportation) of the illegals since this issue affects the existence of the republic itself. No foreign organization or nation should push DR in accepting an illegal invasion! These Jesuits should be kick out of DR. In fact we will target their facilities in DR. No foreigner is going to tell us what to do with this unwelcome invasion! The only politician who spoke about this issue is Aristy Amable who is not going to win the election but the winner will be force to do the right thing for DR! No international agreement nor human rights nor religion nor widening the political base should be a reason to reward violators and to cheapen the price for obtaining Dominican citizenship!
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Greenwave: once again love your comments and where you being all this time dear brother or sister.
"Unite We will fight and win our right to be in peace"
From: Haiti
Ny4life why do you call me antidominican. Is it my fault that you guys can't even write and speak basic spanish. What kind of the dominican calls himself a patriot and descendent of white spaniards that can't even write in spanish..The point I'm trying to make is if you can't write basic spanish we all know what class that the individual come from. Dominicans in my circle can read write and speak spanish.how come you can't do the same. Dont you find that odd? Ooops i forgot many of you here are from peasant backgrounds that migrated to USA/PR illegally looking for a better opportunity that DR didn't give you. Now, you want to haitian immigrants to get the same request that you've gotten abroad. Im sorry if I've offended some of you but the truth hurts..nothing but inferior dominicans bullying on the little guy. How would you write the letter to Duarte to let him no about the haitian invasion..jajajj.Some dominicans u guys are..im sorry if i touch a nerve ny4life but if the
From: Haiti
shoe fit that you can wear it too. How are you guys going to revise the DR constitution when you guys cant read nor write basic spanish? Ask me I'll revise it 4 you.. BTW, creole is a language that we haitians write in and identify with unlike straight illiterate dominicans that can't write in their own language and learned ebonic english by migrating to the usa. You guys have no backbone..I called him out not all dominican but rubi and he can't even speak to the spirits of the founding father in spanish..Duarte doesn't understand spanglish broder. The fact is many of you dominicans have alot in common with poor haitians in the DR but despise them. Dont make this a dominican vs haitian thing bro. A spade is a spade my man. Take some spanish courses at the us citizens expense..why not..you've exploited there system as it is..i dont see why they can't teach you how to speak and write in your own damn language.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to:ny4life,
I disagree with what you said about creole and French. The fact of the matter is that creole is not a pidgeon, but a language as much as Spanish is. You can write creole and more than ten million people speak it worldwide. As far as french, it is a part of Haiti and a lot of people speak it. Those who dont know French are the ones living in cite soliel and in the countryside. I speak French and so does my father, mother, grandma, uncle, aunt, cousins, and the rest of my entire family. Its very hard for you to not know french in Haiti when its the national language and all schooling is in French.
Written by: Escott, 8 Feb 2008 9:55 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a few days a month
I couldn't care less about French. I live in the Dominican Republic and am posting on a "ENGLISH" spoken website but I guess that doesnt matter to the Haitian that is trying to bait the hook.
DominicanToday.com - The Dominican Republic News Source in English
I respect Haitians for many reasons. The ones I deal with are polite and hard working and have a special ability for languages that I don't have.
If Haitians want to become Dominicans in the Dominican Republic they should go through the naturalization process as described by law. Should be NO different for Haitians than others.
Haiti is a MESS and Haitians should clean it up. This is also not a problem of the Dominican Republic.
From: United States
To greenwave:
This invasion you speak of was created by who??? You act as if poor haitians are invading your country by choice. The last time i checked it was started by the dominican government because of harvesting season. I dunno how well u know your history, but if you don't you should take a look at it. It started with the dominican government and its landowners deciding to go to haiti and find workers for harvesting season of sugar canes. At the same time, haitians who were carried in truckloads to DR for cane cutting, some of them decided to stay. And this sparked the migratory journey of poor haitians. I firmly believe in border controls, but don't blame the haitians for all the problems in DR. You are entitled to your opinions, but understand before u blame the lowly ones of society, take a look at where the problem started. Say what you want, do you think the business owners of DR want the haitians to leave. If they did it would have been done already
From: United States
Money talks and thats the sad part in life. Haiti needs to progress, and i have no problem in saying that. But don't go downgrading people, as patriotic as you can be, u must also be humane. Yes, the government should tighten the borders. I will even go out my way to say, illegals found begging on the streets give you grounds for deportation. But for the hardworking individuals, you gotta draw the line and realize they aren't hurting the DR. Instead, they are attracting more foreign investment to DR because they are cheap and reliable workers. No offense, but an average dominican isn't going to work as hard as a haitian especially with their low wages. There is no argument that will counter that thought because if Dominicans provided cheap and reliable labor, haitians would be bum rushed out of DR with the quickness. At the end of the day , just be humane.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Feb 2008 11:06 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Actually mr. Anonymous, it would be the US marines which would start the business of looking for haitian workers on the sugar harvest on their first occupation of the country (1916-1924) to provide cheap labour to their sugar magnates. For making this possible, they started a process of expropiation of lands on Haiti (the US had invaded this country a year before their occupation of the DR), which forced the haitian peasants to migrate to the cities like Port-Au-Prince and Gonaives looking for a living, because their little plots of land that the marines took from them were their only means of living. From there, they would be recruited by scouts of the Dominican National Guards on the marines payroll. Before the marines started the practice, the dominican magnates mainly used British West Indians (the so called cocolos), Puerto Ricans and natives as their main source of labour.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: DannyVC,
When you write 'hatian" can you please spell it correct. The proper spelling for it is 'Haitian" and not...haitian, as you wrote it in your previous post. As far as your guerilla movement to deport all Haitians east of the Rio Massacre, I totally agree with you. this is the best thing you and your country can do. When its all said and done, Dominicans wont have to use Haitians as a scapegoat no more and you guys can start blaming someone else for you problems as there wont be no more Haitians in the D.R. anymore. I suggest that you gather some of your friends in Newark and sail to D.R. in your 12 foot yolas to get the revolution going. The inevitable is about to occur, so you need to start right away. If you want, I can even assist you with your misson.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
I have to say, I've enjoyed reading all the postings. Rubirosa, keep up the comments. We need to know what the Right-Wing Conservatives think so that we can engage you in fruitful dialogue.
DannyVC, I think you need to get on a plane/boat right now, b/c there are some schools in the DR teaching English, French, & Italian... Some of them actually even advertise themselves as "English Only"... Hurry up w/ your guerrilla movement!
Lads, as I have said in the past 1) Our society should be judge by how we treat our most vulnerable. If we continue to call for and sanction the violation of human rights, then what type of society are we. 2) these divisions btw Haiti and DR are not natural - they are important, but they are not natural. They are social constructs that can be changed by US. 3) projecting a single dominican identity (not only racially, but also class, gender, lingual, etc.) is oppressive and false.
Read some of my articles in the opinion section-- shameless self-promot
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To Baldoria: I will keep you posted regarding my (Justice-Truth) movement since it sounds better and according to our by laws precepts.
Thanks for your admiration towards me and will always continue giving you and everybody else
my best feedback regarding our right to be left alone.
"Love and Peace"
From: United States
Listen I personally don't wish any malice to Haitians (spelled correctly now i'm at work right now) so if I miss spell the word please don't be offended. At the end I believe both countries would prosper, if
we had better communication Haitians stayed on their side and Dominicans do the same (by the way I think we actually do). This has nothing to do with race, class gender,lingual.ect. But I know we won't have to use Haitians as a scapegoat no more and we don't have to start blame anyone else for our problems since there wont be no more Haitians in the D.R. This will bring our economy to prosper. So I need to get back to work and will check back in the morning so have a nice evening and enjoy your weekend. Fellow humans. lol
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Rubirosa, I don't think your definition of truth/justice are accurate. I think your points are more reactionary. You need to be a bit more nuanced, b/c you are reproducing blanket stereotypes. I remember my first internship in NY, this guy use to ask me "how many hub-caps did you steal last night?" - He was reproducing a misconception of Dominicans (hispanics in general) in NY. What do I mean by this? The things you say are so broad and crass that it's offensive to anyone who reads it. I defend your right to say the things you say, b/c through dialogue we can help each other understand a different mentality better.
Rubirosa, may I recommend that you read "pedagogy of the oppressed" by paulo freire. It is an excellent start to dealing with issues of oppression and misconceptions; and to understand why oppressed people, instead of fighting their oppressors want to become like their them by picking on someone else: e.g. poor men oppressing their wives & children. Excellent read.
Written by: Lautaro, 9 Feb 2008 10:34 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
If you're referring to african slavery, mr. Perception, then you're choosing the wrong culprit, because it would be Las Casas, not Montesinos, which would suggest its introduction on Hispaniola, and then, this idea (african slavery) wasn't new, because the Portuguese already practiced it by the time Spain and the others decided to take part on it, so if you want to blame someone for it, do so on the Portuguese. As for mr. Rubirosa's ideas, saying that they're reactionary is an understatement, mr. baldoria, because when someone is reading him one have the temptation to think that one is reading something belonging to a member of the Opus Dei group (the most fanatic right wing group within the Catholic Church).
From: United States
Freeing Indians and using black slavery was one of many Montesinos Sermons in Cuba. "His Idea", But I do agree that "Las Casas" was the field promoter.
I did see a big statue of Montesino while I was living there at the Malecon, Its still there, and its he still shouting to the opens seas!!!!
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Lautaro, your history knowledge seems boundless :-)
are you in La Capital, by any chance?
Written by: Lautaro, 11 Feb 2008 8:46 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes, I'm currently living and working over here.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Well, I think we MUST get together for a cold presidente ;-)
give a call 829-426-5745
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Guess the one after me is going to be my best buddy in these forum MR PERCEPTION.
Dominicans are bad because they don't help women in the hospital, dominicans shoul help haiti more opening their borders , dominicans should let the haitians do as they please in DR.
Is not enough that haitians are paying less than dominicans in our colleges, is not enough that almost half of the children born in Santiago hospitals are (haitians), is not enough that the dominican goverment is asking United nations to help haiti more, is not enough that haitian goverment in order to blackmail dominican business to do business in a ilegal way with a company in florida (THE BIG ISSUE IS THE LIES TO THE BUSINESS ITSELF), is not enough that Sonia Pierre benefit herself by lying to the international comunnity and at the same time using ilegal ways to obtain her Dominican Status
Is not enough that haitians walk and act freely in dominican soil, is not enough that The haitians have being granted so many rights by the most pro haitian dominican president in Dominican History and He almost got killed when he visit their country fews years ago.
At the same time Rene Preval their president has being in Dominican Republic so many times and every dominican respect him, We never tried to kill him.
Is not enough that when Jean Bertrand Aristide was president He insulted Juan Pablo Duarte legacy by saying that it He ever went to Dominican Republic He wasn't supposed to drive on any road or highway with the dominican father's founding name on it.
Is not enough that most of the people in these forums are Haitians and pro haitians and most
of the times bash out and disrespect Dominican Republic in a nice and sometimes in a
uneducated way, You are allow your right of opinion without being censored.
So I need to know what else Haitians expect from Dominican Republic and Dominicans???
Haiti and Haitians have to organized their out of place country and grow up, get mature, organize the mess that they have.
United nations are in Haiti and this says a lot about their law and order....
Well I do agree with almost everything you've said except for one...That is that "Creole should be implemented in D.R. more". With all due respect to "our' people but if they want to see "Creole" more often they need to go back to Haiti. There's a specific reason as to why they see Spanish everywhere in D.R. and why they see Creole/French everywhere in Haiti...
Does this make sense??????
Sure keep dreaming about all your plans, Don't know your agenda but let's see what happens
To me doesn't make any sense, so why you guys are pushing for something that only benefits haitians agenda??
Please write in your beloved descendants language. I find it wierd that an elite descendant of WHITE spaniards doesn't dominate his mother tongue. Wait a haitian is telling a dominican to write in spanish and the domincan can't..You tell me what's wrong with this picture..jajja.. Oh yeah, it dawn on me that you come from an analphabet family that had to migrate to the usa and spew diatribes towards haitians in the same precarious position you were/are in. USA has been good to you but you still cant speak proper english..all that free public assistance and you can't catch up..me thinks you have been put in your place. ok.speak to be in your dialect..broder to' vien..are you going to let a haitian put you in your place and look down at you like that..say it ain't pana. I guess Jean takes la india..jajjajaj. I have some boots that needs to be clean my friend..from now on..stay in your place. some dumbinican you are..duarte,sanchez mella would be ashamed of you..jajaj.
Guess you sound like a type of person that likes to research and find the truth (I LIKE THIS POINT)
So if the Dominican and Haitian constitution explains clear who is entitled to be a citizen why you pushing and dreaming about something imposible.
For you bullying me, I take your opinions in the same educated way that you behave in your comments and same behavior and animosity that your fellow countrymen have against QUISQUEYA.
I never had or intended to apply for welfare, Don't need to because always work hard and right now have a good business position.
The only good benefit for haitians to asimilate to the dominican culture would be to hopefully learn some good manners, learn to care about the enviroment and learn to be proactive with businesses and a good and decent society.
The only reason why I think you have so much anger is because You want to
On my humble and decent opinion if you have so many noble and good ideas about Haiti ,why you don't do as some people already suggested to Sonia Pierre, go back or stay in Haiti and from there do your best to help your country, not making any false claims or statements against DR.
On Duarte, Sanchez y Mella (thanks for not offending their memory) but I think they are 100% proud of me right now because they see me from the afterlife and see the way That I keep defending the motherland the way They did it from people like you that still mention the boot like if We would be in the year 1821.
Last but not least I'm still trying to get the point why you and your brothers don't design and promote your own website
I think is a cowardice that all your people have the freedom and are not banned or blocked from expressing your concerns in these forums and with a very high and inflamatory tone trying to be brave for not reason since you are a guess in this place called "Dominican Today" not "Haitian Today"
On the education side will not debate or fight against your comments since you are the one that lost your tone not me.
Last question is that if according to you HAITIANS are smarther than Dominicans why You are the ones attending our colleges and private educational institutions not the other way around.
On being Spaniard, hispanic, latin or whatever other right definition according to your wisdom, yes indeed We are proud about their colonization (good or bad) what can we do, complain about it or cry about it.
Don't forget my suggestion about creating your own website Mr WISDOM
You and your group try to sugarcoated and smooth definitions so it doesn't look politically incorrect but at the end (The intentions are in the eye of the beholder) and the actions and opinions speak by themselves.
If You and your gang want to have a free space without any brave dominican debating what is derogative against Dominican Republic and feel uncomfortable about I"M SORRY but it won't happen.
Regarding the "Hanky Panky" thanks for the nickname since they are big womanizers and the answer is not I never had any issues with any Haitian brother taking my girl away, If you look at my last name it runs in the blood (Women go after us) "Love and Peace"
To anwer your question dear JABAOHAITIAN thank GOD I was lucky and blessed enough to have the means and chance to go to an excellent Private school and college as well (both catholic) which is the main reason why I love justice and love the truth.
I think that maybe you are the one I should feel sorry regarding the edcuation issue since you are the one with the inflamatory tone and biased comments against us.
Also don't know if you ever travel overseas or maybe you are lucky enough that maybe are living in a harsh place in Haiti and your computer is the only means for you to forget all your bad problems in Haiti, if this is the case I feel sorry.
On the urban english side you want to sound like a PHD so don't get your big point, regarding the York (doiminican) nickname it seemt to be that you never being in the us and specifically here in NY
Keep the inflamatory remark regarding the boot for yourself since the United Nation (blue helmets) staff are trying to control people like you in Haiti, they are not in Dominican Republic
right now so look around you in Haiti and ask yourself the millior dollar question:
Are they here for fun or are they here for a good humanitarian reason???
I don't have or intended to have braids or piercing since I wasn't brought up like this. neither I cursed out .
Same like my brothers and friends We never had or will have piercings or any urban style plus I'm almost too old (close to 40) mature enough to behave like a decent and proud man and know how to carry myself in a decent way too, already received many compliments from so many different nationalities and being lucky enough too to interact with so many etnias and in different
levels of class, status and families.
I normally don't take the train (no need to) and going to DR I go every month so once again I being blessed from my God and creator and last but not least don't need to struggle like you mentioned since I have a decent business.
But good try anyway,
Don't have or need to do CABBIES, like I mentioned before my business is a high class and for your personal pain (bad News) dear friend maybe you did it or heard about it from somebody regarding the cabbie business.
Notice that you are doing your best to diminish and degrade my status, feelings and agenda but don't feel bad about it keep trying dear brother.
Don't need either to have a crisis identity since I always follow the right path and the right choice in life, regarding your PHD degree it doesn't look that is helping your genes since it looks that my (UNEDUCATED) behavior is not showing but yours.
My right of speech and justice about the haitians began the day that i noticed that people like you feel and think is right to conduct your personal agenda
I think that regardless if You agree or not with my (UNEDUCATED) points of view We have already done enough and if you think same as your brothers and sisters that still not good enough then I think that you guys need to do a selfanalysis and look around to find for a better place.
You already destroyed (IT's TRUE) Haiti right and left and now you looking for a different land to place yourselfs and force a REFERENDUM to be accommodate and welcome.
It's really sad and pathetic that You and your people have so much freedom in DR and here in these forums and nobody block or spam your comments but according to You this is HATE>
So please teach me a little bit of your well advanced ideas and opinions.
I truly believe that Haiti needs people like you in your country promoting good ideas and projects not us, We don't need your advice.
Good try once again trying to diminish my personality, but I guess that your PHD degree is not helping your GENES to behave accordingly and regretfully inform you dear friend and brother that you have poor skills profiling me because if You match (YOU DID IT) but the other way around.
Keep the good work and We will continue having fun and sharing good comments never biased opinions.
Keep in mind my suggestion about creating your own "Haitian Today" in Creole
thanks for your respect and admiration and as long as We have this same kind of communication We will respect each side.
You right believe or not I WILL LOVE TO see HAITI improving since at the end Haitians are human beings and deserve a better life too I'm not selfish on this side.
Believe or not I do bash out my people from time to time when I see sloppy actions or negative behavior, so don't get me wrong I do say the truth if I have to against my own people that's DISCIPLINE and I love and follow Law and Order.
"Love and Peace" and let's keep the good motivation and DISCIPLINE
Why do you bring up the racial ancestry and ability to write in Spanish when debating with JRRubirosa? What does that have to do with anything? And make little jokes like calling him "Sanky Panky"
I ask because I've seen this trend with some of the more extremist Haitian posters on other forums.
My opinion is for the governments of DR/Haiti (w/UN & OAS support) to try to tightly control the border, and for DR to get a very comprehensive immigration plan and a humane way of deporting al illegal Haitians.
I know this all sounds nice & neat on paper, but DR really needs to do this asap for many reasons.
After this election, the constitution will be edited to completely eliminate loopholes and double meaning language that the illegal use to demand legalization. Deportation will be massive after May 17, 2008!
Some change names and identities so they could pass as somebody else.
"Duarte, Sanchez y Mella"
We need to start a revoultion of good values, patriotism and respect for the identity that We inherited from our founding fathers.
"Unite We will fight and win our right to be in peace"
I disagree with what you said about creole and French. The fact of the matter is that creole is not a pidgeon, but a language as much as Spanish is. You can write creole and more than ten million people speak it worldwide. As far as french, it is a part of Haiti and a lot of people speak it. Those who dont know French are the ones living in cite soliel and in the countryside. I speak French and so does my father, mother, grandma, uncle, aunt, cousins, and the rest of my entire family. Its very hard for you to not know french in Haiti when its the national language and all schooling is in French.
DominicanToday.com - The Dominican Republic News Source in English
I respect Haitians for many reasons. The ones I deal with are polite and hard working and have a special ability for languages that I don't have.
If Haitians want to become Dominicans in the Dominican Republic they should go through the naturalization process as described by law. Should be NO different for Haitians than others.
Haiti is a MESS and Haitians should clean it up. This is also not a problem of the Dominican Republic.
This invasion you speak of was created by who??? You act as if poor haitians are invading your country by choice. The last time i checked it was started by the dominican government because of harvesting season. I dunno how well u know your history, but if you don't you should take a look at it. It started with the dominican government and its landowners deciding to go to haiti and find workers for harvesting season of sugar canes. At the same time, haitians who were carried in truckloads to DR for cane cutting, some of them decided to stay. And this sparked the migratory journey of poor haitians. I firmly believe in border controls, but don't blame the haitians for all the problems in DR. You are entitled to your opinions, but understand before u blame the lowly ones of society, take a look at where the problem started. Say what you want, do you think the business owners of DR want the haitians to leave. If they did it would have been done already
When you write 'hatian" can you please spell it correct. The proper spelling for it is 'Haitian" and not...haitian, as you wrote it in your previous post. As far as your guerilla movement to deport all Haitians east of the Rio Massacre, I totally agree with you. this is the best thing you and your country can do. When its all said and done, Dominicans wont have to use Haitians as a scapegoat no more and you guys can start blaming someone else for you problems as there wont be no more Haitians in the D.R. anymore. I suggest that you gather some of your friends in Newark and sail to D.R. in your 12 foot yolas to get the revolution going. The inevitable is about to occur, so you need to start right away. If you want, I can even assist you with your misson.
DannyVC, I think you need to get on a plane/boat right now, b/c there are some schools in the DR teaching English, French, & Italian... Some of them actually even advertise themselves as "English Only"... Hurry up w/ your guerrilla movement!
Lads, as I have said in the past 1) Our society should be judge by how we treat our most vulnerable. If we continue to call for and sanction the violation of human rights, then what type of society are we. 2) these divisions btw Haiti and DR are not natural - they are important, but they are not natural. They are social constructs that can be changed by US. 3) projecting a single dominican identity (not only racially, but also class, gender, lingual, etc.) is oppressive and false.
Read some of my articles in the opinion section-- shameless self-promot
Thanks for your admiration towards me and will always continue giving you and everybody else
my best feedback regarding our right to be left alone.
"Love and Peace"
we had better communication Haitians stayed on their side and Dominicans do the same (by the way I think we actually do). This has nothing to do with race, class gender,lingual.ect. But I know we won't have to use Haitians as a scapegoat no more and we don't have to start blame anyone else for our problems since there wont be no more Haitians in the D.R. This will bring our economy to prosper. So I need to get back to work and will check back in the morning so have a nice evening and enjoy your weekend. Fellow humans. lol
Rubirosa, may I recommend that you read "pedagogy of the oppressed" by paulo freire. It is an excellent start to dealing with issues of oppression and misconceptions; and to understand why oppressed people, instead of fighting their oppressors want to become like their them by picking on someone else: e.g. poor men oppressing their wives & children. Excellent read.
I did see a big statue of Montesino while I was living there at the Malecon, Its still there, and its he still shouting to the opens seas!!!!
are you in La Capital, by any chance?
give a call 829-426-5745