From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
OK all the posters who are in this category [negative forces] and tenebrous sectors...joined by maneuvers from abroad......get ready to jump in....you know who you are ....phony bleeding hearts...always trying to stir up the mob....accusing people of horrible behavior to suit their racist agenda...this article is custom made for you....here they come listen to the drumbeat...they will not rest until they have dragged the reputation of the Dominican Republic down...They are the same group who installed the present disaster in Haiti during the Clinton administration....let the lies begin
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa.
From: United States, Brooklyn
"Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa."
You mean
1. Gouletcolonial
2. Perception
3. Jemesouviens1804
Whenever something positive is said about DR, you HWWDTF can't hold your tongue and start bashing and doubting our accomplishments.
PS. HWWDTF = Hatians Who Wish Dominicans To Fail
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
carlos franco obviously you dont read very well...or comprehend very well...I support every positive economic step this country makes....I do not dismiss it as exploitation.....a new project ....others say it was stolen for a cheap price from the poor locals....not me ...you got the wrong guy....look at the bleeding hearts,the knee jerk leftists they have fooled you carlos franco.....they are whiners and complainers who have a hidden agenda ....A ..LA ..CHAVEZ...and are looking for opportunities to make trouble
From: Haiti
Carlos,HWWDTF that is a good one but you are diverting your fustration at the wrong people. Why would haitians want the DR to fail? Is there a deep issue in the dominican psyche to think that haitians that share the same island want them to suffer. I think you should re-read the article because it is basically talking about how people like you are manipulated to think this way. I mean I am fustrated that the average dominican & average haitian still can't clear the smoke screen to see the truth which both countries population have been used for a few groups personal interest. I mean you just dont know and it's ok but you are directing your fustration at the people you should be siding with to resolve these issues. Sometimes I feel like posting all of the haitian-dominican businesses in the DR and the names of both groups who are milking the well dry of both countries but I fear of retaliation and honestly people arent ready yet..read the article again.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
jabo I truly like the direction of your post...outside agitators are trying to fan the flames
From: United States
Goulet, i know you have been trying to bait me with your posts, and i will oblige you. as the old saw goes, time is money. why are you wasting time dicking around with silly remarks when you could be gainfully making even more money? shouldn't you be somewhere in africa, killing a few hundred worthless natives to steal and peddle blood diamonds? what about buying a few ghetto buildings, then turning the heat off on the poor tenants so their kids can freeze to death? ah, yes, shouldn't you be crafting some scheme to embezzle some old lady out of her life savings? how about the old tried and true standby, selling cars with backed up odometers to college students?maybe a few insurance scams for laughs? a little shylock business on the side? hey, its all the free market, buddy. dog eat dog. biggest ,baddest man prevails. he who has the gold makes the rules! the poor be damned; they are just irritants.those who defend them are bleeding heart liberals. well, Goulet, someone has to defend
From: United States
the poor from miserable swine such as yourself. as one other poster observed of you, you are everything that is bad about the world. you are a cancer in society, a parasitic vermin who profits from the ill fortune and shortcomings of others. you use superoir knowledge of a subject to put others in disadvantageous positions, wherein you can fleece them and call it " the way the ball bounces". people like you should be caged and fed through bars. at least i advocate for those who need advocacy, not the donald trumps of the world, who have no need for you anyway. a pox on your house, you miserable slime of the yukon!( sorry, Belial, i could not help borrowing that)
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
That was terrific CarlosFranco....I have to applaud you on your creativity. Im mean, this is coming from a DWLIP( Dumbinican Who Lives In the Past). You probably wake up everyday complaining about Haitians and what they did, do, and could do to your beloved Republica Dominicana.
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 11:01 AM
From: Haiti
DR and HT need to come to a common ground in order for either country to be more successful into the next generation. Both presidents in my view are working toward that path but the international community does not want to see a strong relationship between DR and HT. The Hispaniola Island is one and it’s indivisible, so it’s up to the children of both countries to make a better tomorrow. DR can claim to be better than HT all they want, but economically in order for DR to be self independent, HT will play a huuuge part in it “pay attention to how I spell huge, it was done deliberately” vice-versa for HT to be self independent DR will play a huge part, in order words folks HT need DR as much as DR need HT.
Stop assassinate others character, but you should assassinate there opinions, there comments and let’s stop calling each other name but rather criticized there views.
Lord
Vivre libre ou mourir
Freedom is for all…
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
you threw the whole deck of slimy race cards at me this time....I must have hit the right buttons...again your talk of helping the downtrodden rings loudly hollow...a smoke screen for your true agenda
From: United States
what is racial about the remarks i made? is there a "race " of people who hold exclusive rights to the maladies i adumbrated? just which race might this be? in my experience, the nigerians in new york are some of the worst offenders in the scenarios i describe. i do not know what race you are, and quite frankly, i don't care. a parasite is a parasite, whatever his race or ethnicity. do you think i would rather be swindled by an african-american than an italian, for example? as long as the result is the same, who cares? you just refuse to accept my assertion that certain things should transcend money. you belong to that group of people who characterise the scientists who are worried about global warming as kooks and pinkos. you believe that any government regulation to protect the environment will have adverse effects on business, and since money making should be the only human endeavour worth consideration, they are heretics. but i understand you, Goulet. a man such as yourself
From: United States
lives in a total state of disconnect from the human race. you have no friends, your neighbors probably detest you, and when you put lampshades on your head at parties, people do not find you funny. so to you, humanity and human beings have no value. the only coefficient of value you can arrive at is money. the more, the better: better people have more money, or something like that. well, i beg to differ. i am against the selloff of this country. you would be too, if you had any intellectual preparation in sociology and economics. this is the only country dominicans can call home. should the unthinkable happen in the future, and they be expunged from the USA, where will they go? and do not tell me it cannot happen: just go ask the jews in spain in 1492, and in hitlers germany.ask the moors. technology changes, human nature does not. this crap could happen again, then what? dominicans running around looking to set up home in myanmar? because all the good, available land has been sold
From: United States
to outsiders? there is a difference between investment and consumption: caution has to be exercised in order to understand the difference!! finally ,do you believe that the countries which do not allow foreigners to own land do so because they read an opinion by Dreadlocks in Dominicantoday?
Written by: antonioj, 26 Mar 2008 12:01 PM
From: Canada, home safe
jemesouviens1804, 26 Mar 2008 9:20 AM
From: United States
Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa
I will second that
Written by: ny4life, 26 Mar 2008 12:30 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Dredlocks and Goulet, your bickering downgrades the quality of the discussions. You guys need to take that somewhere else. It seems you both come out of the extreme and therefore, bump heads.
DR and HT relations are definitely improving. Rene Preval Garcia and Leonel Fernandez Reyna are cooperating very well. HIspanola needs to and will work together for the greater good. I agree that outside forces are trying to hold things back but this cooperation will continue. It's inevitable.
From: United States
ny4life, i apologise to you and other readers for having dragged this forum into the morass. but if you follow the threads carefully, it will become apparent to you that Gouletcolonial follows me around like a child , always trying to bait me into some sort of spirited response, apparently for his entertainment. i took a one month hiatus from posting, and even then he kept making incessant remarks about me, like the coward he is. my failing is that i retaliate: most other posters have the good sense to ignore him.i will try to exercise more restraint in future, and i concede culpability. strangely enough, saturn and i started off on the wrong foot, but we both developed mutual respect, since we have the study of economics in common, so we ended up trading ideas instead. Goulet, on the other hand, seems bereft of intellect, so we cannot, sadly, find common ground!!
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 1:13 PM
From: United States, Texas
"“Tenebrous?" I can't recall seeing it.
The good book says it means "dark and gloomy."
Where did the ambassador such a rare word?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
saturn whupped you with the pinata stick real good.....he beat you like an Iraqi prisoner.....so you better be nice to him or he will do it again....whack whack
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
belial has awakened from his nappy....the guards have allowed him to return to the computer....what will he have to say?.....let me guess......
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Jemmesouviens and antonioj:
"Your deformed brains need to be re-adjusted to the present reality"
Your frustations must be adress to your "Lazy" goverment not to others, since Your group
is always whining about something that is supposed to be managed from Your country.
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 2:24 PM
From: United States, Texas
The Yukon slime is trying to speak.
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 2:47 PM
From: Haiti
I think if most of you guys try to control your emotion than we might be able to accomplish something, but if not we are wasting our time and energy.
HT and DR need each other so whatever your thoughts are they need each. Let’s stick to the article only and let’s move forward. Haitian loves Haiti to the infinite power and I’m sure Dominican feel the same way about DR. let’s see how we can benefits from each other and let’s see how we can share Ideas instead of putting each down.
I have faith on you guys to do better…….
One man is not a Team!
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 3:00 PM
From: Haiti
NY4file,
Let’s try to ignore the others that do not desire to keep this segment of conversation positive. Like I said before HT and DR need to stop letting third party influence there decisions, and the direction of there respectful country.
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 26 Mar 2008 3:21 PM
From: United States
The USA need to invade DR and HT and make them commonwealth like Peurto Rico.
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 3:32 PM
From: Haiti
JohnUSA
With all do respect that will never happen. Just to give you a little History of USA and DR in the dark ages. When DR get there independence from HT, they had offer the USA the opportunity to be there colonial and the US declined. The US is not in a position to take on more responsibility right now, and if HT was able to defeat great Napoleon, the great US of A will go down the same path.
HT will always VIVRE LIBRE
From: Haiti
Ok let's not get besides ourselves or have wishful thinking. I mean reading some opinions here is a brain drainer and counter productive. Haitians & Dominicans really need to take a deep breath and discuss solutions and social reconciliations. It is inevitable that the two countries that share the same island need to wake up & realize how to overcome negative campaigns and build a bridge to overcome our differences and just simply respect each other.
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 4:02 PM
From: United States, Texas
"The USA need to invade DR and HT and make them commonwealth like Peurto Rico," says JOHNUSA, 26 Mar 2008 3:21 PM.
0000
JOHNUSA, the tenebrous, did you know that in the USA, the word "John" means, among other things, a room where humans excrete or a place where humans deposit the waste their bodies produce.
JOHNUSA, I have some waste that my body produced, which I want to deposit. Will you be in Houston, Texas during the next few days?
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 4:06 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Despite this situation, which in his view disturbs the Dominico-Haitians relations, Serulle said presidents Leonel Fernandez and René Preval are also concerned and seek common ground to solve the problems of their two nations. "
oooo
This seems true.
And it seems very promising for the future.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 4:11 PM
From: United States, New York
Johnusa, what is your reasoning for the USA to invade DR and HT?
Are you trying to imply DR would've been better off?
Do you mean like Puerto Rico is today?
Or like Iraq is today?
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 4:38 PM
From: United States, New York
Evidently Haitians need to go over to DR to work. Dominicans can benefit from their labor. Allowing Haitians to work in DR and compete for Dominicans’ jobs will drive labor costs down and that’s something we don’t want. Sending all illigal Haitians out of the country locking the gate and throwing away the keys will promote illegal immigration and actually benefit those being bribed. Now, where do we draw a line?
Solving the problem is a benefit for the country, but not for the small groups profiting from the problem. Wait and see who the DR Gov't will size with.
From: Haiti
Sir JC, the situation is far more complex than what you described above. One way to curtail illegal haitians from crossing the border is to stabilise Haiti where jobs will be created and inform those that venture to the other side illegally pay consequences such as the young lady that was shot. Now this is were it gets complicated the dominican elite can't afford to lose this cheap labour ,and don't want to,where the outcome is more productivity and cost less than hiring a native. Haitians think the sun shines brighter on the other side just as Dominicans feel of Puerto Rico. Just imagine if Puerto Rico shared a border with DR. I personally blame both governments for a laissez faire attitude which further complicates the issue with dominicans of haitian descent are not recognize in their place of birth and the dominican population wanting a hand out rather than a hand up. How many dominicans want to work in the construction and other sectors where haitains have simply filled
From: Haiti
cont. a void. As yourself this question? If haitians were not doing this job would the dominicans take these jobs if they were paid more? I have to say the majority would still complain and will do less. Ok Im generalising here but the average dominican have become spoiled with remesas a form of welfare and fascination of making it big if they make it to Puerto Rico and New York. The reality is Haiti needs to improve its standard of living for the mass and DR needs to respect human rights and prevent its people from wanting to leave by any means necessary. Very complicated situation and will not get solved overnigt but if the two groups work with each other than cause confusion less people will get swallowed up by exploitation.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:23 PM
From: United States, New York
Is the UN still in Haiti?
Has the UN stabilized Haiti with all the time it's been in the country?
Are Haitians running from themselves?
if you want to talk about serious problems you can start here. Don't blame DR.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:30 PM
From: United States, New York
I will say, if USA had borders with DR or Haiti they would have build a wall long time ago.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Well what do you know, the "Anti-Christ" is back at it again(Haitians are god's people and if you against them your against Christ). Every single day your bashing Haitians/Haiti as if it were you after school activity and when someones says something about you, you cry and moan like a little b****. Please just let it out "papi" and say that you just don't like Haitians at all. You are a worthless excuse for a human being. Thank god that not all Dominicans are an idiot like yourself.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:46 PM
From: United States, New York
At least we sent money back home...
sorry, couldn't resist...
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:55 PM
From: United States, New York
Jemes, what are the wealth distribution percentages in Haiti?
And don't go to Christ yet...we'll get there later.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Jemmesouviens: grow up.....................
From: Haiti
JC, you are missing the point. Read my comments again. HAITIANS aren't blaming the DR for the problem in haiti. As I said prior the average dominican aren't ready to have a real sit down about this subject.
Written by: Trujillo, 26 Mar 2008 8:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
JabaoHaitian: Haitians ARE blaming the DR for the problems in Haiti. Not only haitians, but people from other caribbean countries as well and I have many personal experiences to be convinced of that. The truth is that Haitians are to blame for Haiti's problems.
We can respect each other, no problem, but let's stay on our side of the island. First war, before the unification of the two countries. The only way I would accept the union of the island is that it be under dominican control and all haitians deported somewhere else. I bet Canada, the UK, the US, and other european countries would gladly open its doors for millions of their new citizens from Haiti. Well, I guess I'm a "negative force" for saying what I believe. There's no secret "powerful groups" here or "racist agenda", just the opinion of an individual. And with that said, I'll leave the drama to the Dalai Lama.
From: United States
trujillo, i must concede that that is a novel idea. lunatic, but novel. do you surmise that that could be the reason for the purchase of the super tucano aircraft?
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 8:57 PM
From: United States, Texas
The DR bourgeoisie hires the Haitian workers.
The DR bourgeoisie sic DR workers onto Haitian workers, whom the bourgeois hires, to keep the Haitians in line.
At the moment, it works although slavery is spreading.
The DR worker is trying to figure out who is taking his job away ... is it the Haitian worker or the DR bourgeoisie?
A similar story is being played out in PR and USA.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 9:13 PM
From: United States, New York
JabaoHaitian, I agree with you somewhat. And the main issue for Dominicans is human rights.
It will be a little difficult and probably one of the main issues telling Dominicans where they went wrong. Many Dominicans don't even understand the issue.
Yet, you can not condemn a country for the sole reason of being in its own territory and believing their territory to be itsown. I don't like the sound of that, but it is reallity today.
Look at the so called Developed countries on this same issue. You can not expect "underdevelop" countries to resolve issues that "developed" countries are still dealing with.
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 9:22 PM
From: United States, Texas
Does anybody know why the Irish act like ... or worse than ... DRs, PRs, and USs when the Irish deal with Brazillians?
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={6E55AE39-8372-4CA9-B95D-D4035915A3D8})&language=EN
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Sure that the "Easiest" solution is to blame Dominican Republic while countries like US, France and Canada support and have an agenda to "Brainwash" the planet about an illusion that has its
mirror in the "Haitian people irresponsability"
To make an example "Japan" and the "Japanese" were "Bombed", "Destroyed" and "Humiliated" by the US and they along with the "Germans" were the WWII "Pariahs" but nowadays They are both well developed, civilized and part of the "G8" countries which means that "They" have the
civilized and powerful will to be 2 well advanced contries.
Bottom line is that "Haiti" and "Haitians" don't want to go the extra mile for anything in life other than being the political victim in "Dominican Republic"
Show me something different and I will personally apologize and humiliate myself to be "Different"
From: Haiti
Trujillo, I actually respect your opinion and everyone should have that liberty to express themselves without being P.C. Although, you are not realistic of the situation it is good to hear every spectrum to try to resolve this delicate issue. The fact is Haiti/DR are stuck on the same island and wish they can separate but that would never happen. As much there are misinformed super patriotic dominicans throwing a fit without knowing the situation there are many of my compatriots who do the same. Now the minority who know the truth on both sides just live on and go about there business or you'll find a few like myself that try to make sense for the good of both societies. Now I think one individual has humiliated himself enough and needs to know that USA literally rebuilt Europe with the Marshal Plan. The hispaniola plan is to keep haitians and dominicans at each others throat while the culprit runs of to cash in off our ignorance and lack of corporation. So where do we go from her
Written by: JOHNUSA , 27 Mar 2008 1:47 AM
From: United States
The problem is DR and Haiti are plagued with corruption and drug trafficking. Two failed nations unable to govern themselves. Poor Dominicans and Haitians are dying everyday because of the greed of both governments. The people of DR and HT deserve better than that. This is why both people should petition their country to annex them to the USA, the best and greatest country in the world. God Bless America.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
JohnUSA: your lattest comment is "Nearsighted" since the "Evil empire" is on decadence and loosing its power to harass other countries.
Look at France They were harassed due to the fact that They didn't want to join the "Irak" coalition 5 years ago and look now which economy is falling part.
I do live in the US, but the current goverment destroyed the american economy, mighty power and there is a US$450,000 debt for every household, few trillion dollars in debt own to the chinese and finally all banking institutions and big companies are laying people off and loosing money in
the millions and billions.
Your points have no foundation on logic, maybe Haiti would be better off but not Dominican Republic.
From: United States
actually, Rubi, the debt to the chinese is not " a few trillion" it is hovering around one trillion, give or take a few billion.
From: United States Virgin Islands
History repeats itself. There is nothing new under the sun. Frederick Douglas was correct in 1890. Frederick Douglas was the U.S. ambasador to Haiti. He wrote about his experiences while living in Haiti. He said that there were groups on the island of Hispaniola who were creating problems for Haiti because Haitians were primarily black. He also said that those groups were upset that the slaves took over the island and that they will do their best to make sure that Haiti never enjoys stability. Furthermore, amongst the confusion, those elites groups can make money. The past holds true today. However, it does not mean that the situation cannot be changed. The answer is education. It takes a highly spiritual man to ignore skin color. A spiritual man can look at a man's qualities and faults. Only God can look at the heart. A regular man on an animalistic level looks at skin color. Becoming a spiritual man takes you to another level. You need God to reach that level!
Written by: Belial, 27 Mar 2008 9:00 AM
From: United States, Texas
"The problem is DR and Haiti are plagued with corruption and drug trafficking."
0000
They are plagued no more than the USA.
With respect to drug trafficking, they are plagued 1000 times less than the USA.
With respect to corruption, they are also plagued less than the USA, but the USA knows how to cover up its corruption better.
Look at the Jack Abramoff thing which exposed all of the GOP legislators. USA simply picked a few scapegoats and the other GOPs walked.
The corruption associated with Halliburtion and US mercenaries is on such a grand scale that the crooks in the DR and HT can't even imagine or conceive the magnitude of the greed involved.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 10:04 AM
From: United States, New York
Johnusa, stop using drugs and we will stop trafficking.
But that's not the issue here.
You don't have to look too far for a comparison:
Haiti -very poor people, due to gov't mishap.
DR -human rights (slavery), corruption.
PR -supported by USA, got in trouble when USA pulled out some help to the gov't.
Cuba -communism, limited freedom, mayor destination for sex tourism.
Now, where do you want to be?
From: United States
actually, JC, PR is not merely " supported" by the USA: it is a commonwealth of the USA. even the post offices read United States Postal Service.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 10:48 AM
From: United States, New York
Find dreadlocks, and your point is?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 10:58 AM
From: Haiti
HT will never become a commonwealth of the USA simply because of our skin complexions, and DR fall into same the category simply because they are part of the Hispaniola Island not BECAUSE USA DON’T WANT THEM to be a commonwealth of the USA. History will always repeat itself and until someone proved me wrong I will say it again, HT will never be peaceful for more than a decade because it’s not good business for the power to be.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 11:38 AM
From: United States, New York
Lord1804, without mentioning USA or another country outside the island, what do you think the problem is?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
actually JC the P.R. is the U.S.A. and hopefully soon its 51st state
From: United States
heck, Jc, i have no idea what my point is. i am too busy trying to figure out yours. actually , with the exception of communism, all the territories you enumerated have the same characteristics. for example, you say that haiti has very poor people, and that poverty has been occasioned by government . the same applies to puerto rico, cuba and dr. you say that cuba is a major destination for sex tourism: have you ever been to the dr? and haiti is just as guilty of human rights violations and virtual slavery as the dr is. now do you get my point?
Written by: rom1804 , 27 Mar 2008 11:57 AM
From: Zimbabwe
Here comes trouble....Now where have I hid that list of DR's little extra carriculum activities.
1846 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to France. (FAILED)
1849 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States. (FAILED)
1861 - The Dominican government voluntarily returned the Dominican Republic to Spain. The Dominican Republic is the only Latin nation to do so. (EMBARRASSING)
1868 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States yet again. (OH! NO NOT AGAIN)
1873 - The Dominican government tried selling to the United States of America the Dominican Republic for 1.5 million dollars. The United States Senate refused. (WHAT A SHAME)
1906 - The Dominicans succeeded on selling their souls to the United States. (YOU KNOW THE REST)
2008- To Be Continued....
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Puerto Rico is poor? that is relative .....and to what ...not Latin America
Written by: rom1804 , 27 Mar 2008 12:04 PM
From: Zimbabwe
It's me again...
The Dominicans would always argue that they are not Anti-Haitian and they were simply protecting their sovereignty.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have tried to return their side of the island back to France in 1846
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have offered their country to the United States for the taking in 1849.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have voluntarily returned their side of the island to Spain back in 1861
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had attempted to sell their side of the island to the United States back in 1873 for 1.5 million dollars.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had signed a 50 years treaty with the United States given them (The US) complete control over their administrations.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't be under Spain's control today in the 21st century 2008.
Somebody Plea
Written by: rom1804 , 27 Mar 2008 12:20 PM
From: Zimbabwe
Okay! now where was I? Oh yeah! 1937 now we get to discuss my favorite super villain "Rafael Leonidas Trujillo Molina "AkA" The Dominican Hitler "AKA" the innovator of Antihaitianismo "AKA: Mr. I wear make up so I can look white "AKA" Mr. I had Haitian blood running through my veins but I don't want anybody else to know about it. I can go on and on about him....I the sick perverted mind of me self I would like to say I LOVE YOU Trujillo ohhhhh!!! You are #1. lol let me stop before I make the Dominicans invade me home in me hide out spot in Zimbabwe. hehehehhee.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:29 PM
From: Haiti
United States, New York
Great question! And please keep them coming..
Lord1804, without mentioning USA or another country outside the island, what do you think the problem is?
The problem is not just USA, France, Canada and the European Union but since you ask to go beyond those listed above I will do just that.
The problem with HT starts with the elite which is about 5-7% of the population if not less. The elite control about 80% of the country wealth and the Government control about 10% and the other 10% if not less is in the air. I’m sure you can see where this going.. The Haitian elites are the most stubborn elite on earth, and they are controlling the economy of the country. The Haitian can be the president and make the laws and so on but at the end of the day MONEY MAKE THE GOES ROUND. The elite can turn on the government anytime they don’t see a profit and make matter worst those elites are USA, Canada and France citizens. I must apologize for using France, USA an
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:31 PM
From: Haiti
continued
must apologize for using France, USA and Canada as you insist but they are internally embattled in HT.
I sure my now if you are not from HT that you know we are or they are a Rebel without a cause nation, but sometime they do have a cause. Most Haitian want to be a leader but don’t know the first thing about leading a country and that’s another problem. Haitian Presidents plan for now not for the future and I must exclude Rene Preval because I can’t judge him right now. The building of a nation one must star with
1. Security
2. Laws must follow
3. Education and without education we will not have security nor will laws follow.
I can list thousands of items but we can’t accomplish them without Security, Laws in place and the proper education to execute these items. Please let me know if I should proceed.
I’m willing to be defeated in order to Win, but Haitian doesn’t want to be defeated so we will never Win……..
Lord1804
One man is not a Te
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 12:33 PM
From: United States, New York
Rom1804, is DR succeeding now by selling its land and companies to investors?
Do you wish Haiti could attract investors as DR does? I believe it is in the interest of almost every country to get people to invest. Too many examples starting with the USA, it’s just common sense.
Dreadlocks, look at the gov’t of each of the four countries mentioned. Each one of them went their different ways. Now look at where we are today and how time has paved our way. The DR system works. I’m not afraid to talk about the growth of the Dominican economy. PR cannot talk by itself. Cuba cannot talk at all; you really don’t know what’s happening with the country you can only speculate. Haiti took a close system to the DR system, but like lord1804 said, power wants it that way. Power of money.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:43 PM
From: Haiti
United State, New York!
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes.
What’s the most stimulus thing in the world dear?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 1:02 PM
From: Haiti
United State, New York!
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes. Every nation is different in there own way so what’s work for DR might not work for HT and what’s work for HT might not work DR. You have to remember Haiti started on a Huge hold by giving France 190 Franck which is equal to 21 billions dollars so we will never be able to make a faire comparison to Haiti. Yes DR system is doing a lot better and I agree HT need foreigner to invest in the country.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 1:05 PM
From: United States, New York
Lord1804 that is true for any country but Haiti is becoming a rarity.
Wait a minute, let's not talk about culture or do you mean rice and beans, Sancocho, abichuelas con dulce(sweetened beans), palm tree roof house, merengue, bachata, perico ripiao. Most of the buildings were built by foreigners. Tell me, what are we loosing to the foreigners?
From: United States
when you say that the DR system works, what do you mean? in what respect? there is a concept in economics called factor accumulation, which is a self explanatory term. if that factor accumulation is entered into an econometric model comprising other variables, it can be compared against a base to create a simulated growth index. the base is usually another country or group of countries. (generally speaking, developed countries). in 2007 we had a simulated growth index of 6.3%, but the REAL growth was 1.4% . that, my friend, is called UNDERPERFORMANCE!! Big time!!. and one of the main reasons, ( I NEITHER HAVE TIME NOR SPACE TO GO INTO THIS IN DETAIL) is the lack of education and educational facilities. secondly, we rely too much upon the export of primary products. we hear about how much we are exporting: it is not the amount that counts, its the composition. i could go on all day with this topic, but lets hear someone elses take.
From: United Kingdom
Mike,I'm getting tired of saying that Haiti( and the DR) need to build capital(both physical and human) without help from the international community I don’t see that happening.
From: United States
Frank, how do, my friend. i just mentioned you in a post to saturn. get a read of the following article : LOSING GROUND: Latin American Growth from 1955-1999. long and plodding, but you will revel in the many insightful observations of Loxley, Heyneman, and Kavoussi, to name a few. this is right up your alley!!! and secondly, all these folks who revel in the " investment" from outside have never heard of the terms HOT MONEY and speculative capital. they do not realise that these are temporary inflows of cash which follow the high interest fault line. if another venue offers better returns, out goes the cash. which is why we have to look into self generated capital formation. capital in this case means human capital, as you indicated. along with human capital must come social capital, which includes loyalty, hard work and dedication to one's task. those are some of the Confucian tenets which make the eastern countries so formidable. we revel too much in the notion of foreigners buying
From: United States
beaches. we have to consider the input -output ratio of the capital ( although Cobb-Douglas might be considered outmoded). we need a higher ratio of savings to income in order to magnify capital formation
From: Haiti
This is the sort of debate I like. Not reading comments from idiots like Rubirosa. DR's economy is doing much better than Haiti of course because it has had less scars than its neighbor. Haiti is in the situation its in because of its own people to a large degree but it is external factors that have played the biggest role. Haiti was in great debt since its formation and constant foreign intervention has made problems even worse. Then the media does its thing and the country acquires a negative reputation. Embargoes and severed international relations doesnt help does it? The best thing for DR would be for Haiti to prosper as it once did and remain politically stable. Wish what you want but Hispaniola belongs to Haitians as much as it belongs to Dominicans. Both countries share the island so the best thing for everyone would be the advancement and improvement of both nations. The past is the past and we must look towards the future.
From: Haiti
Mutual cooperation benefits both parties. DR is a huge trading partner for Haiti and vice-versa. I can honestly admit that there are too many Haitians in the DR but Dominicans can never admit that their country benefits much more than it is harmed from so many migrants. Without so many Haitian laborers your newly finished metro wouldn't have been completed in its expected timeframe. (By the way I admire the Santo Domingo Metro so kudos to DR for that). Only through positive relations can Hispaniola advance as a whole.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I think that you're making the sad mistake of confounding the intentions of the elites with the ones of the common people, mr. rom1804. For your info, in every opportunity that the colonialism of the elites showed its ugly face, it would find the indomitable will of the dominican people to be free opposing it every turn. You have to remember that the spaniards were expelled after two bloody years of war (1863-1865), a war that didn't have anything to envy the one that your people unleashed upon the french, and that:
1- Everytime that Buenaventura Baez tried to pursue his treacherous plans, he'd meet the stiff resistance of Luperon and the Blue Party, which represented the will of the dominican people at the time.
2- On the two occassions that the USA invaded the country (1916 and 1965), it would find itself meeting stiff resistance from the dominican people, first with the gavilleros and then from the constitucionalistas. (cont...)
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 2:15 PM
From: United States, New York
Let's not speculate about the growth of the DR economy. The system works and for now that is all it matters. If DR could get the issue with slavery fixed it would be in better position to grow.
You don't want to hear some DR company is making money because using the cheap labor. You want the investors in DR but sharing its income with its employees. The gov't should probably penalize the companies that use illegal workers labor. Not that it'll be good for Haitian immigrants, but again Haiti needs to look at the problem with their system.
From: United Kingdom
Mike, that is the dilemma ,because it takes capital to make use of technological change(education in today’s world) and increase labor productivity, since capital represents output that is produced now, for the purposes of increasing productivity later, the creation comes at the expense of current consumption. In simple terms sacrificing consumption in favor of producing capital can speed up real economic growth, but may be headache in the present(amassing wealth at the expense of buying power), the people in power can’t make the tough choices and that’s the problem.
From: United States
the fact of the matter, Shin( if i may call you that), is that haiti is one of the major trading partners of the DR, and vice versa. if Haiti is so inconsequential, why was there such an outcry in response to the poultry embargo? does anyone realistically believe that the farmers who are now having to sell eggs at 2 peso per, because of the loss of the haitian market, are not hurting? does that tell some of these boneheads nothing? do they know how many people in this country are making a decent living peddling wares bought in dajabon? when will people just stop smoking hallucinogens and realise that there is a critical symbiosis between the two countries?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 2:25 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro,
I’m not sure that I follow where you going but please enlighten me some more and please excuse my ignorance or my slow process of your statement.
Let’s agree to disagree for a better tomorrow for both HT and DR.
From: Haiti
Thank you Dread,Frank long time no read, and Hay. I was getting worried and felt that Haiti & Dominican Rep were doomed due to lack of informed people. Haiti's main concern should be foreign investment that will in turn revitalize the economy with jobs. Now the problem is the elite group want there cut without concern of returning that money back into the country. Also a tax reform needs to be implemented in Haiti which would help build infrastructure & school programs, decentralizing the power from P-au-P to other departments would decrease the congestion in the capitol. A bilateral agreement between the two countries needs to be implemented to get rid of the red tape. Also collaborating forces to combat narcotrafficing & share information to capture rings of crooks that have infiltrated the island. There is a big event that went on with an elite haitians which used dominican for his interest. Ok, let me hush. I think many haitians & dominicans have no clue what's going on.
From: United States
exactly, Frank. one of the problems is prioritizing the expenditures. we do not think in the long term: expenditures are usually undertaken for political spectacle. sacrifice has to be made at the outset, and the economy transforms itself evolutionarily. Vietnam, at this point, is not at the same stage of development as Japan, not only in terms of performance, but in structure. Vietnam is what Japan was, a source of cheap labor. the cheap labor model is one that Vietnam plans to use as a short term solution, but plans to focus on education and technology as their backbone, given limited resources. even if they did have a lot of natural resources, they do not want to run the risk of RESOURCE COMPLACENCY, which seems to be happening to us here ,currently. we have this belief that we are in an indomitable position because externals covet our beachfronts.
as long as they keep " investing", all will be well. people should be schooled in the difference between investment and speculation.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(contt..)
3- Trujillo may have been a monster, but it is also true that, without the structures tha he set on foot, the dominican state and its relatively well-off economic status (at least well-off if one would compare it with the one of Haiti) would be nonexistent, and perhaps the DR would be facing the same economic straits that its neighbour is currently facing. One have to remember that the disorder of provincial caudillismo and the corruption of the Vazquez administration were the things that made Trujillo's rise to power a possibility. I know that to ask of you (or any haitian, on that account) for an impartial evaluation of Trujillo's dictatorship is an impossibility, is not the less true that dominicans like me, while condemning the many crimes committed by him and his accomplices, can not fail to recognize that, without the hiatus of order that his dictatorship represented, the DR of today would be no better than Afghanistan, in the sense that it (cont..)
From: United States
yes Mr Lautaro: in common parlance, it is called " give the Devil his due!!!
From: Haiti
JC, I think you are out of touch of the real dealings in the DR. I am all for foreign investment like the one in the DR but have you read about the scandals that favored them and not DR. Also it gives dominicans that are abroad a since of pride about the metro and towers being built but are there compatriots going to benefit from this personally. What Im saying is the average dominican barely gets the crumb from these investments. IMO, Fernandez is a great president and one of the best RD has ever had but we have to remember that a country isn't built with under privileged and uneducated people. This reminds me of an Israelians I met at the mall. He was upset that he was tired of the incompetence of this backward country his words not mine. I ask him why stay, his reply, Oh Im in real estate selling to foreignors and make money. The guy didn't speak spanish to put minutes in his phone btw he has screaming at the attendant to add minutes to his phone. My point is the average.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:44 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont..) it would find itself lacking the economic and institutional structures for even achieving a moderate economic performance.
From: Haiti
dominican isn't going to enjoy this boom and still live in a marginalise area where he/she feels only going to Puerto Rico/NY will solve there woes. The DR system works compared to what country? Ok it is better than Haiti but how does it fair globally well even latin america. I think things are improving but alot of issues needs to be address. Haiti needs to catch up and curtail illegal immigration but it is a major player with DR that needs to improve relations down the line to end this dilemma.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 2:51 PM
From: Haiti
The moral of the story is no foreigner will invest in a country that’s under UN occupation. Yes I agree HT is babbly need investor, so the tourism market can pick up once again. HT downfall benefiting DR and my DR folks let’s not go crazy on me let me explain. Many Haitians world wide do not vacation home because of the instability so they go to DR, many Haitians would like to star up businesses because of the same problem they star there businesses in a more stable country. The loser is HR and that will not change anytime soon. We can call on Jesus or blame USA, France, Canada and Europe nothing will change until Haitians are ready to be change. I don’t blame anybody but ourselves because it takes us to let the others affect us.
Lord 1804
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
That's right, mr. jabao. I have always been of the opinion that, if the DR were to achieve more profit from tourism, it would necessarily have to modify the current structure, in which the resorts are nothing more than separate enclaves: in other words, the dollars or euros that enter their coffers hardly ever make their way into the rest of the economic structure, and if they do, they only serve to fatten the already large and unwieldy state bureaucracy. That israeli that you mentioned reminds me of the typical colonial chap: a person that his/her only interest on a given territory is the money that he/she extorts from that colony's purse, then, when that pocket is fat enough, it's time to go home to enjoy the fruits of a well done scam!!
From: Haiti
Lord1804
Kisa wap pale la. Are you sure you know anything about Haiti? There are alot of foreign investors in Haiti now despite the MINUSTAH's presence. Haitians abroad do travel to haiti very often and flights haven't decrease despite the problems. Haiti needs to adjust to a democratic society and overcome corruption & she'll be just fine..Piga ou pale tin tin la pliz..wap fè nou yont. Please inform yourself about Haiti..All due respect a fellow compatriot. Lakay se lakay..ok piti
Written by: Belial, 27 Mar 2008 3:11 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Cuba -communism, limited freedom, mayor destination for sex tourism."
0000
If there were any truth in this accusation, Cuba would have the AIDS problems of the USA or DR.
UN researchers consistently find that the rate of AIDS in Cuba is the lowest in the western hemisphere, including the US and Canada.
The bourgeois propaganda that tries to belittle Cuba extraordinary accomplishments in health care spreads and promotes the rubbish about "sex tourism" in Cuba.
Of course, there are whores in Cuba. but the whores in Cuba don't reflect an exploitative policy of the proletarian state. The Cuban whores are individuals who pursue the life of a lumpen in opposition to the policy of the state.
In USA, over a million children live off the streets, many of whom are whores. The state doesn't mind in the least.
In DR, the lure of child prostitutes in a key factor behind 3,000,000 foreigners who visit every year, the highest number of tourists in the Caribbean.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:12 PM
From: Haiti
Pa mwen laykay se laykay. Nous cipose changer paske leur ya rive.
I don’t take it at all as a disrespect young brother but we need more investor, more tourism and I don’t mean just Haitian.
Mwen remain Ayiti tancou ciro miel never mean any disrespect but read the comment again to see what I meant.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, I've always admired your knowledge and well balance opinion of both countries. It fustrates me to hear dominicans complaining of how hard life is..prices are going up and along with gas prices is making it even harder. It's great for the moral of the country especially dominicans living abroad for branging rights..yeah, we got a metro just like PR but there aren't social programs as a safety net for those that genuinely need a hand up and not a hand out. Sure dominicans abroad are enjoying because they work hard abroad but those that are here don't have that type of many to buy. Illegal haitians are making money although cheap but it isn't slavery..The problem is civil rights and job paying their workers with some benefits. Haiti needs to start a construction boom to return these experience workers back home to build haiti. Bilateral agreements need to be implemented like yesterday
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 3:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Digicel is an example of some of the current investments on Haiti if I'm not mistaken, mr. jabao. I wonder why they hadn't expanded to the DR yet.
From: United Kingdom
Barriers of entry maybe ?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:24 PM
From: Haiti
The transition of Digicel to DR might not happen anytime soon because of political issues and will create to much competition for the others. I believe it would great for DR but of course politic come first
From: United Kingdom
Lord1804, can u be more specific.
From: United States
Frank, you are a baaad man!!
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:34 PM
From: Haiti
I believe Codetel is cover about 60-80% of the market and if you pay the right person you can keep anybody out. Digicel application still pending but will not approved if the current president win the next term.
From: United States
Mr Lautaro, the colonial chaps to which you allude in your post ,are the ones who bother me. they are into making arbitrage profits, not into developing the country in any way. it is a case of buying in one market, selling in another, and running off with the profits, leaving the locals to sort out the resultant mess while they count their profits. when these types buy a condo, for example, from a dominican, they do not turn around and look for another dominican to sell it to. they look for a foreigner with the financial wherewithal to make the deal very profitable. so they will buy a piece of property for say 30,000, which ,for purpose of example, is the price the dominican traffic can bear. they then offer the property for 60,000, which is a bargain to the foreign contingent, but outside the reach of the equivalent dominican SOCIAL class. this is called buying in one market and selling in another. the only consideration is maximum profit. it has nothing to do with betterment of
From: United States
anything besides their own balance sheet!
From: United States
anything besides their own balance sheet!
From: United Kingdom
Lol, I was just asking because the fellow that owns that company, is quite famous on this side of the pond for his attempts at avoiding even the most minute sums of capital gains(taxes; he is also know for his craftiness.
From: United Kingdom
lets just say he would fit right in.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, you are absolutely correct. Digicel is one of the many foreign investors in Haiti and they are actually giving back to the community. They sponsor the haitian national football team and are building schools in the provinces. Hopefully they are the one spending the money rather than giving it to the locals. DR has too much competition with all the foreign telecommunication that already exist and would be a harder market. Although there is another telecom company in Haiti that has come to an accord with one of the telecommunication in the DR.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:49 PM
From: Haiti
Dred,
What else is there beside the Balance Sheet, Cash flow is the most important thing in any investment. Since you mention Balance Sheet I guest you might know how a thing or two . If your expense exceeding your revenue that’s equal to a net lose, so why would Codetel make it easy for Digicel to inter the market?
From: Haiti
Digicel would have a tough time penetrating the already well-established and dense Dominican telecommunications market. Codetel would run them out the building. I dont know about the future but right now Digicel dominates in Haiti followed (distantly) by Comcel known as Voila.
From: United States, New York City
"Trujillo may have been a monster, but it is also true that, without the structures tha he set on foot, the dominican state and its relatively well-off economic status (at least well-off if one would compare it with the one of Haiti) would be nonexistent, and perhaps the DR would be facing the same economic straits that its neighbour is currently facing. "
I disagree with this assesment completely. Its as if to say that the Dominican people could not have acheived advances as a society without the spectre of dictatorship, which is nonsense. It's precisely that kind of thinking that keeps people looking out for the next "strong man" to resolve their problems for them. Trujillo's legacy is that of blood and corruption. Maybe not today but i intend to start a forum here so that we may discuss Trujillo's regime in depth so as to dispell many of the myths that have been perpetuated with regards to said regime and the supposed "benefits" it brought the Dominican people.
From: United Kingdom
Mike, can you say “bubble” because that what’s being created in the local market.
From: United States
by the way, Mr Latauro; be very careful with these calls for a fair return to Dominicans from the fruits of the country's treasure and assets. you might be perceived by certain types as a rabble rouser, trying to disrupt the harmony of the society and having an agenda for wealth re-distribution. you might be seen as an inside agitator!
From: United States
yes, Frank, and the locals are being positioned outside the bubble. i hate to hear people say that SOME Dominicans are able to afford some of the real estate developments. when the starting price of condos in a development is 300,000 usdollars, does anyone realistically believe that it has the local market in mind? and Lord, cash flow is not the most important thing in an investment. you can run all the cash you want through a business, but if it is not correctly managed, it will end up in the red.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 4:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well mr. cibaeño, you only need to look at the astounding power that caudillos like Desiderio Arias had over their respectve regions, power that was often enough to extort heavy monetary sums from the government without giving a damn about the future of the country. In my opinion, if it weren't for Trujillo's ruthless approach, the country would still be divided in caudillistic spheres of influence today, as in the case of Afghanistan. I'm in no way advocating for a return of a strong ruled gov, I'm just saying that we have better chances to build a stable democracy right now than our forefathers had before the dictatorship, when the country was virtually a no man's land because of the power represented by those warlords and their private armies.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:18 PM
From: Haiti
Dred,
Let’s stay within the scope of your question and your question had nothing do with business management. I agree with you if a business is not managed correctly it will be in the red. We were not discussing the fundamental of a successful business but your point is taken.
From: United States, New York City
"power that was often enough to extort heavy monetary sums from the goverment without giving a damn about the future of the country."
Extort heavy monetary sums?!? At the time of Trujillo's death his fortune was valued at somewhere in the neighborhood of 800, 000, 000 1961 US dollars (Some reports dating from the time placed him as one of the wealthiest individuals on the PLANET). That would be billions of dollars in today's money. Not bad for someone who grew up on the dusty streets of San Cristobal. I don't think Arias ever wielded either enough influence or power to gather for himself the tidy sum Trujillo managed to procure from the Dominican people. A few superficial signs of modernity stemming from his regime and all of a sudden the man should be canonized! The man was a theif, a murderer, and a degenerate.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 4:38 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Would you approve them for the state to ask for permission to a caudillo to make anything on a given province, mr. cibaeño? because the lawlessness was such that the state could not even levy taxes without giving a high percentage of the income to those thieves coffers. Unlike you, I prefer to be robbed by one person instead of being sacked by many on a whim!! It's better to have ONE, unified country instead of having THREE in the same space as it was the case before Trujillo, and all because of the inability, or plain cowardice, of the Santo Domingo elites to put those provincial bandits on their right place, that is, six feet under!!!
From: United States
Lord, go back and read your post of 3.49 pm. you are the one who made the foray into the area of cash flow. anyway, this is too insignificant a subject to divert our attention to.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:47 PM
From: Haiti
let's stay focus...how can we solve the world problem today? LOL
From: United States
which one?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:55 PM
From: Haiti
USA does have lots of problem right now....
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:58 PM
From: Haiti
Are you for Hilary or Barack Obama? I would love to be part of this historic event but I’m for Obama all the way.. Haliry lies to easily I guest that’s a Clinton thing.
From: United States
it will be a historic event whoever wins. as for a preference: i have never voted in the usa, because i am yet to see anyone who i think is worth it. i would have voted for Jimmy Carter, though, if only because he is a principled person.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 5:04 PM
From: Haiti
If Obama is not worth it, I guest you will never vote in your life........but of course that's just my opinion.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 5:09 PM
From: Haiti
I think Obama is inspiring and he’s massage is a breath of fresh air. I wish I was able to hear more of he’s speech and Hilary to me is just a ?.. don’t really care.. All polititian lies so Obama is no angle
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 5:27 PM
From: United States, New York
I don't like Obama. He is too much of a rich boy. The Clintons should go back to power. USA is not ready for a black president; they still dictate who should or should not say "negro" on the airwaves. USA is not ready for that yet.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 5:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
My favorite is Obama, because he, unlike Hillary, seem not to cater to the corporations' whims. At least that's the message that I'm getting from him.
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Cibaeño, I think ur missing Lautaro point; before Trujillo, the DR was divided semi feudalist fiefdoms. These were led by some powerful individuals that could sometimes challenge the power of the central government. A “mano dura” Trujillo change that.
P.S sorry for my pretentiousness, but can you guys take US election topic to the new forum section( I personally like Obama).
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 5:34 PM
From: Haiti
Obama is my guy also but we should chat about US problem also......
From: United States
JCJua, wherever did you get it from that Obama is too much of a rich boy? richer than Hilary? her net worth is 35 million. she just lent her campaign 5 million, which she probably had in her handbag. at least we know Obama is a product of abject poverty. abuela still lives in a shack with no modern amenities, such as light and running water. sorry Frank: i am done with usa election silly season antics.
From: United States Virgin Islands
To Lautaro: I am sorry but Trujillo was not a good guy. He was half Haitian, denied being part Haitian, and murdered his own people. Even at that time the Haitian government was corrupted. Instead of mounting an army against Trujillo in reponse to the murder of 30,000 innocent souls, the Haitian government accepted money from Trujillo to forget about the issue. The DR suffered under the brutal dictatorship of Trujillo for 31 years. With support of the US, Trujillo took control of the DR in 1930 and ruled until his assassination in 1961. Trujillo amassed a huge fortune at the expense of his people while repressing all opposition. A movement of young Dominicans tried unsuccessfully to overthrow the dictatorship. However his rule was finally ended in 1961 when wealthy Dominicans unhappy with the dictator had him killed. In the twentieth century the DR was not able to establish a stable democratic government due to several interventions by the US and the dictatorship of Trujillo.
From: United States Virgin Islands
Most of you are very young and do not know anything about the Trujillo regime. But I was there in DR and Haiti at that time as a young man. Trujillo and his buddies were vilains. Trujillo ran against incumbent Horacio Vasquez for president in 1930 and fraudulently claimed 95% of the vote. Once in power he used the National Guard to terrorized and banish all civilian opponents. He also established a secret police forced called the SIM (Military Intelligence Service) which not only gathered information but engaged in torture and murder at Trujillo's request. He used the SIM to control the press, bribe businessmen, and create a climate of fear among Dominicans. His brutality was well documented. He modeled his dictatorship after fascist Francisco Franco in Spain, whom he much admired. The Dominican capital Santo Domingo was renamed Ciudad Trujillo and in the capital neon signs flashed "God and Trujillo."
From: United States Virgin Islands
Trujillo used his political control of the nation to amass great personal wealth. He took over plantations, and businesses. His family, relatives, and political supporters received lucrative jobs. Millions of dollars created in the Dominican Republic were used to throw lavish parties and the rest was stashed for safe keeping in foreign bank accounts. He welcomed US businesses and investors in the Dominican Republic and he maintained a pro-US foreign policy. Although many Americans did not like Trujillo's strong arm tactics, after World War II many Cold-War politicians in the US supported Trujillo as a leading Latin American anti-communist. US Secretary of State Cordell Hull summed up this attitude when he said of Trujillo, " He may be a son-of-a-bitch, but he is our son-of-a-bitch." (World Press)
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 10:00 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
He may have been a son of a bitch, but the caudillos that dominated the dominican political landscape before him (Horacio Vazquez, Desiderio Arias, Rafael Estrella, Juan Isidro Jimenez, etc.) weren't avowed democrats either, mr. Docpeters. What is worse, those caudillos resolved all their disputes by the force of the bullets, so the population lived on a constant state of fear even before Trujillo got into power. As mr. Frank said, the country was nothing better than a bunch of semi-feudalistic armed states, where the populace didn't have the chance to go from one province to another unless they were armed to the teeth or in cahoots with the local warlord (think of Japan in its Sengoku or warring states period, or continental China in the turbulent years of the Kuomingtang Republic and you''ll get the picture of how convoluted the state of the DR was before Trujillo). At least he left us a state sufficiently unified to keep the menace of provincial warlords from surfacing ever again.
From: United States, New York City
"At least he left us a state sufficiently unified to keep the menace of provincial warlords from surfacing ever again."
LOL . Do you honestly give Trujillo credit for ending the era of "concho primo"? That was acheived by AMERICAN intervention. The US were the ones responsible for ending the reign of the local caudillo. Trujillo was just a caretaker of what was handed to him, a pacified populace. But in the Americans so doing they simply robbed the people of the opportunity to acheive a Dominican solution to a Dominican problem. Now we will never know if left to their own devises would the Dominican people have said enough in unison and have finally sat down to work on the art of government as other societies with similiar violent backgrounds were able to do in the past. I sincerely feel that we were robbed of acheiving something great as a people because of, once again, foreign intervenion.
From: United States, New York City
Trujillo's Dominican Republic is simply the country as seen through the eyes of an USMC officer of the time because that was what Trujillo was.Clean, efficient, but only where it counted. His state is nothing to envy. It is the stifling of what could've been. There are other roads to progress and the Dominican people are more than, and I'm sure were more than, capable of walking those paths as well.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
obama a product of abject poverty? you are dreaming...His white granny and abuelo put him through prep school and Harvard....the same granny he threw under the bus in his speech....
From: United States Virgin Islands
Lautaro, you are right about one thing about the Trujillo regime. They did indeed welcome U.S. and foreign investors. That was a good thing for the DR and a good thing for Trujillo so that he did receive support from the U.S. . DR today has a lot of hotels, resorts, restaurants, and factories built by foreigners. The primary reason Trujillo opened the DR to foreigners is because he wanted to whiten the DR. He hated being part Haitian black and he wanted the DR to be completely white. Haiti could have had the same level of success with foreign investors, however, the Haitian government was extremely corrupted. More so than the Trujillo regime. For example the Gulf Corp wanted to build a 300 million dollar resort project on the island of Tortuga (Haiti) in 1969; which would have been the biggest in the caribbean at the time. The Haitians wanted money under the table to get the project through. Till today nothing can be done in Haiti because of the corruption and selfishness.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 10:48 PM
From: United States, New York
Many of you need to understand, Trujillo did wrong, just like any other gov't did. USA implemented slavery in construction like roads and tunnels. so did Trujillo. it's okay to say Trujillo was a bad guy, but he did clean up the country. Many people still recall Trujillo "if it were during Trujillo's era the criminal would've been killed". It is wrong, but he did it. Don't forget to say he held the world fair. Plus many people believe Merengue was born during Trujillo's era. I think without Trujillo the Hispaniola could've been divided in more than two. Probably 5 like the 5 cacicazgos.
From: United States, New York City
"Plus many people believe Merengue was born during Trujillo's era."
Merengue predates Trujillo and it is from the cibao region, from which Trujillo was not.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
doc peters you are all wet .....read chapter" same island two cultures" in the book COLLAPSE it will help you understand the profound differences between these two countries starting with their founding
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 7:55 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well mr. cibaeño, my grandparents, who lived on that convoluted era from the beginning, tell me otherwise. According to them, Desiderio Arias' power was so absolute on the northwest line that the government actually didn't have a presence whatsoever over there. All the shipping and other trade acitvities that were done on Montecristi, Mao and Puerto Plata had to have his consent to be carried out. If it weren't for Trujillo's ruthless solution, i'll wager that Arias and his family would still being monopolizing transactions on that region, or worse, they'll have been capable of declaring the Northwest Republic as it happened on Haiti when some sectors of the tradtional elite led by Andre Rigaud declared the secession of the Southern Department from the rest of that Republic. I may be an ultra progressive chap at heart, but at least I'm capable of understanding that, sometimes, there are some sacrifices must be done if one is to achieve unity and order on one's country. (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 8:02 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont..) and you know as well as I do that, if it wouldn't have been Trujillo, then someone else would have done the deed, the thing is that there was absolutely no other way to deal with those bandits, they were simply too fond of their unruly behaviour to be dealt with otherwise. Just like Japan needed the Tokugawa's tyranny to achieve union and peace, so the DR needed a dictatorship to weed out its unruly sectors from the political landscape. Oh, and for your info, Vazquez and Jimenez (the main political leaders from this epoch) weren't avowed democrats either, they would have simply looked for appeasement measures in order to keep some facade of political control, facade that would have ended anyway, because if there's a lesson that one could derive from the western powers dealing with Hitler is that, once you start making concessions to madmen, they would not end until they had your backside as a meal.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 8:37 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Trujillo may have been THE dictator of the DR (even though there are some people sustaining that there were more poltically motivated assassinations under Balaguer than in the Era), but he hasn't been the only one that we have had on our history. Before him there was one called Ulysses Heureaux, and for the info of the naysayers around here, he was of haitian descent of the first generation (both of his parents were haitian born), and to add insult to injury concerning his tyranny, he would be the one who would help the Viccinis to establish their economic and political empire. So it's a given that, with that political experience on hand, the DR having another dictatorship may be seen as something that was unavoidable on the long run.
From: United Kingdom
Bravo ! Mr. Lautaro, that was a brilliant elucidation of historical events. I once had a conversation with a Dominican history professor about the similarities of Heureaux and Mejia administrations and the pernicious state they left country in; I wonder what’s ur opinion on the subject?
From: United States, New York City
"If it weren't for Trujillo's ruthless solution, i'll wager that Arias and his family would still being monopolizing transactions on that region, or worse"
Again you are giving credit to Trujillo for something accomplished by the Americans. Do you know what Arias was doing during the American occupation? Laboring in Santiago, throughout the whole occupation. When he finally decided to take to the "lomas" again against Trujillo his powerbase in the northwest was already a thing of the past. I agree that in all probability a strong man would've likely emerged from the turmoil that followed Caceres but It would've been someone produced by our society, not some degenerate pimp imposed on us by a foreign power, and even that might not have been the case. You mentioned japan. Japan didn't have invaders impose order on them from the outside, they produced individuals that were able to consolidate the state within the context of their own society. Just look at what japan is today.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
yes just look at Japan ...their constitution was written in longhand by Douglas Macarthur during their American occupation....look it up
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
as for EL Leader if he had stepped down 4 years prior to his assassination there would still be statues of him in the parks...He stayed to long at the dance
From: United States, New York City
"yes just look at Japan ...their constitution was written in longhand by Douglas Macarthur during their American occupation....look it up"
That is true goulet, but Japan was a world power all on its own before she went down in defeat during the second world war.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:32 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What would have been the difference if the results would have been the same, mr. cibaeño? Foreign intervention or not, the DR would have ended having a dictatorship sooner or later. As things are standing, it's counterproductive for us to be dwelling on what ifs when there are more pressing situtations surrounding us at hand.
From: United States, New York City
"as for EL Leader if he had stepped down 4 years prior to his assassination there would still be statues of him in the parks...He stayed to long at the dance"
I doubt that very much. People already lived in absolute fear of the regime throughout the fifties. Foreigners who knew the country well before Trujillo would comment on the change that occured in the Dominican character. It was noted that a poeple that were once jovial and outgoing had become rather secretive and weary of strangers. There were already signs of dissafection for the regime early on. It was just impossible to form any type of oppsostion that could've been effective at the time.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:38 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes Frank, Mejia's administration is sickeningly similar to the Heureaux one, in the sense that Mejia, as Heureaux did, left the country so indebted that, were a civil conmotion to arise right now, the empire's creditors would be knocking our doors down as they did seventeen years after Heureaux demise, on the first american occupation of the country (1916-1924). Ironically enough, the same empire that started the practice of using haitian inmigrants to work the dominican sugar fields is the same empire that is pointing fingers at the DR right now on the charge of slavery. I guess that hipocricy is the usual currency that empires use when trying to cover their sins to the rest of the world.
From: United States, New York City
"As things are standing, it's counterproductive for us to be dwelling on what ifs when there are more pressing situtations surrounding us at hand."
It's not counterproductive to clear up misunderstandings when it comes to interpreting history. You wish to concede to Trujillo things that he cannot take credit for or be given credit for. The end of the era of "concho primo" was due to American intervention.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
that is hearsay...without the violent end which was traumatic for the country things may have been very different....one only has to at Spain and Franco to see that Spain morphed into a much better situation and its prosperity can be traced to some of Francos works.....Chile and Pinochet as well morphed into a much better situation...do not discount this theory ....Trujillo was a thug megalomaniac but the country goes on
From: United States, New York City
"that is hearsay...without the violent end which was traumatic for the country things may have been very different....one only has to at Spain and Franco to see that Spain morphed into a much better situation and its prosperity can be traced to some of Francos works.....Chile and Pinochet as well morphed into a much better situation...do not discount this theory ....Trujillo was a thug megalomaniac but the country goes on"
Again, if left to their own devises the Dominican people might have benefited greatly after Trujillo's fall. But what happened when the people rose to demand a return to constitutional government and were on the verge of securing it? Foreign intervention. Those societies you've mentioned didn't have anyone come form the outside and impose order on them once their dictatorships fell for whatever reasons. They made the transition to an open society on their own. Dominican were not given that opportunity.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:50 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What's the difference for you if he only consolidated what they started? hadn't been the one who committed the deed, it would have been another chap or a military junta as in Brazil. The same ends would have been met eventually.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:51 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Are you kidding me, cibaeño? everybody knows that the CIA had a hand in Pinochet's rise to power. Didn't you know that?
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 9:51 AM
From: United States, New York
cibaeño75:
Merengue is a dance and music of the Dominican Republic (East Hispaniola). It is very similar to Méringue which is popular in Haiti. Merengue was made the official music and dance of the Dominican Republic by Rafael Trujillo.-From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
I had no idea. Now if you like merengue you should give thanks to Trujillo for making merengue ours. Haiti, we have more in common than many Dominicans think.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:54 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
And in Franco's case, if you must know, he would receive the help from non other than Nazi Germany on his rise to power (haven't you heard about the Nazi Lufttwaffe's bombardment of Guernica?) and, after the war, he would receive US endorsement in order to keep communism away from western Europe. I must thank you for this debate, mr. cibaeño, it's wonderfully helping to keep me on my toes on the academic front.
From: United States, New York City
Jcjua, wikipedia articles can be written by anyone and hence are poor reference material...I suggest you research the origins of Merengue via more traditional methods or at the very least find a more reputable online article..
From: United Kingdom
"Jcjua, wikipedia articles can be written by anyone and hence are poor reference material...I suggest you research the origins of Merengue via more traditional methods or at the very least find a more reputable online article"
I second that
From: United States, New York City
"And in Franco's case, if you must know, he would receive the help from non other than Nazi Germany on his rise to power (haven't you heard about the Nazi Lufttwaffe bombardment of Guernica?) and, after the war, he would receive US endorsement in order to keep communism away from western Europe."
Of course I'm aware of Paquito's rise to power with the help of aid from the fascist powers of the time (mussolini also provided aid). Aid and intervention are too different things, goulet. It's one thing for me to supply you with arms and maybe a few battalions, it's another thing for me to come in and take over the whole operation and sideline all sectors of the native population in doing so. One is that act of an ally (which the before mentioned powers were to franco's nationalist movement), the other is the act of an arrogant bully.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
the point is not about your paranoia of America but transition without violence Franco ,Pinochet and El leader were all despots so what?...the victors write the history....only Trujillo was assassinated...the transition was messy and we ended up with more of the same.....and please Lautaro no history lessons on El Caudillo I lived in Spain 4 years just after his death, and return often
From: United States, New York City
"the point is not about your paranoia of America "
Where have a shown any paranoia for America? I love this country, I just disagree with how she's interracted with some of the sister republics in the hemisphere in the past. I'm failing to see the point you are trying to make, goulet. Please elaborate. And no one is attempting to give you a history lesson in anything. I just continued the discussion from the point of reference you provided. Sheesh goulet, get that coffee in your system before you explode on someone!
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 10:18 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I don't know where you have been receiving your info, mr. cibaeño, but from what I have read and heard, the Americans didn't lift a finger in Trujillo's rise to power, because he would do it on his own using the army (which by that time was already composed 100% on native soldiers) and capitalizing the populace's discontent with the horacista administration. The only thing that the Americans would do was to give their endorsement to the consummated deed (and also warn Trujillo not to touch the american companies on his eventual monopolization of the country's economy).
From: United States, New York City
We are misusing this site. We should be having exchanges like these in the forum that has been recently provided.
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 10:23 AM
From: United States, New York
Look who is saying that, you are posting comments in a news website. Should I remind you of that?
I will believe more the freedom of speech than the teacher-student old technique. You are talking about the world that taught that Pluto was a planet.
Of course you don't have to believe me. But if you have any beef with wikipedia go and take it with them. Or just go back to the history books and believe everything they say. Good luck in life.
As for me I am the believer of free software and free licensing. Hence free thought.
GNU Free Documentation License
Free Software Foundation, Inc.
http://www.nylxs.comFrom: United States, New York City
"The only thing that the Americans would do was to give their endorsement to the consummated deed "
That's all they had to do. Without implicit US support I doubt if Trujillo would've been able to consolidate power. To paraphrase Bosch, In the dr a call from the American ambassador's office to any dominican general illicits more of a response from said general than if the Dominican president himself called him.
From: United Kingdom
ur right we have gonne completely off topic
From: United States
actually, cibaeno, we really should have a situation evolve wherein people who want to participate in serious exchanges, such as the one between yourself and Mr Lautaro, could isolate themselves from the likes of Goulet, who is a debasing agent. you and Mr lautaro have very divergent opinions of the subject at hand, but it has been a civil exchange of formidable knowledge, devoid of insults and accusations. enter Gouletcolonial, and things go downhill: he throws in a few non-sequiturs for good measure and effect, to draw attention to himself: 'don't forget about ME, i am here too" he thinks .so we have to endure these repetitive interruptions to permit him to insert that which, in his opinion , passes for knowledge.disagree with him, and he insults you. as some posters have already opined, this site has gone to the dogs!! people with single-digit intelligence quotients should be commited to kindergarten chat rooms.
From: United States, New York City
Jcjua, what are you rambling about? All I told you was that wikipedia is not a reliable source of information as anyboy can post an article there without the inforamation on said article being authenticated.. Don't beleive me? Look up Jcjua in the wikipedia in a few minutes and you'll be astonished at what you find!
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 10:45 AM
From: United States, New York
If Trujillo didn't brough merengue out why don't you look it up and tell me otherwise?
you are running away from our Haitian haritage. I'm sorry brother but there are things in life which we can't hide. Not that I would want to hide it, but it seems that you want to.
looks like you were schooled with old history books and now you don't want to think out of the box. Well grow up cibaeño75 and come back when you have something else than what was written in the "Nacho" books.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
sticks and stones dred ...you are obsessed ever since saturn whupped on you ...
From: United States
are you sure " obsessed" is the word you want to use? obsessed with what?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
I have read that it was brought to great popularity in the Merengue. bar of the old Jaragua hotel during the Trujillo regime and that El leader actually composed some pieces himself
From: Haiti
Very interesting debate from both of you. Lautaro great point about americans only cared about their sugar industry which indeed brought haitians over which started the exploitation in the bateyes that they blame dominicans for. Una preguntita, so are you claiming Trujillo brought RD together as one entity which force the elites to compromise? Do you think that Trujillo could've reach total control if it wasn't for the help of the americans which couldn't care un centavo unless one was pro-communism? Can we care to think that Trujillo have done good & bad but which one outweighs the other? Isn't a form of nostalgia when people claim if trujillo was here this delinquency would not be an issue. Duvalierism has filtered the minds of many haitians of the days of mano dura. Trujillo was assasinated because he disobeyed uncle sam? Balaguer regime was more of the same and maybe worse. Good job guys
From: United States, New York City
"Are you kidding me, cibaeño? everybody knows that the CIA had a hand in Pinochet's rise to power. Didn't you know that?"
Of course. You can scan through some of my other posts that allude to my knowledge of events in Chile's history but we were not discussing his rise to power, we were discussing Chile's transition from dictatorship to open society. In any event CIA AID to pinochet is well documented but again aid and direct intervention with the use of troops are two different things. At the very least I can say this about Pinochet: He became a general based on his own merit within his society, he didn't win his position in life by kissing up to foreign invaders and providing them with whores and booze as was the case with Trujillo.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 10:59 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'm sorry for you mr. cibaeño, but I have to agree with mr. JCJua on this one, because it's a common fact that Merengue would rise as the more popular genre of dominican music during the Trujillo era, because he wanted to annoy the elites, which had the waltz and the other classical, opera genres as the music of choice of dominican society before his power grab. Likewise, he would forbid the use of the guayabera as the main garment of the dominican gentlemen, and instead, would institute the use of the frac, smokin, and other european oriented garments as the official ones to use on social gatherings and labour days. For more info, seek the book: "Anécdotas y crueldades de Trujillo" by Lipe Collado. Believe me, you will get the laugh of your live with it!! :-)
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 11:02 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Thanks for the compliment, mr. jabao.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
this is all from the grassy knoll school of thought....cibaeno you should know better than to swallow all that leftist horse puckey
From: United States, New York City
"I have read that it was brought to great popularity in the Merengue. bar of the old Jaragua hotel during the Trujillo regime and that El leader actually composed some pieces himself"
It's my understanding that Trujillo fell in love with the Cibao variant of the merengue while stationed there as a young guardia. He is definitely responsible for forcing it down the throats of the capitaleño elite but it was already a popular musical form within the country among the rural peasantry and the urban dwellers in the interior. I've heard rumors through word of mouth that Trujillo did indeed compose some merengues but I've never encountered any documented evidence to verify it. And Jcjua, no one has denied that merengue might have haitian roots, but the current form of merengue, which stems from what is called merengue tipico, was the local variant of the genre that originated in the cibao region. Relax and breath.
From: Haiti
JC I can confirm what you are saying about merengue from reading books. Cibaeno is simply trying to say that wikipedia isn't too reliable although I think this time around it is on point. Trujillo I believe nationalise merengue becuase he wasn't fino and didn't appreciated the boleros of that era which the elite dominicans listened to at that time and shunned merengue and associated with the mass population, low class which merengue was already the preferred genre of music by the people. We have to remember Trujillo was from San Cristobal and left poverty by joining the dominican army. I think out of respect for the many people that died during his regime we must not idolise him too much but acknowledge his regime. The scars are still in the psyche of many dominicans and was conditioned further by Balaguer..
From: United States, New York City
Lautaro, I saw your post after I posted mine concerning merengue..I hope I cleared up my position on the subject for you..
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 11:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Loud and clear, mr cibaeño. Did you get to see the book that I advised you to read? Trust me, it's both educating and entertaining at the same time.
From: United States, New York City
By the way, there are alot of interesting anecdotes about trujillo and the era of the local caudillos in "Memorias de Concho Primo" wriiten by Soto Jimenez (who is, by the way, a gentleman in every sense of the word). I finished reading it recently and I loved it. It's a great peice of Dominican-produced literature and I think some of you here will enjoy reading it.
From: United States, New York City
I'll definitely look into it. Next time I'm in Caliope (A dominican book store located in uptown manhattan) I'll make sure to pick up a copy as I'm sure they'll have it there. Do yourself a favor and check out Soto Jimenez's book. It's over 700 pages and yet I finished it within a week. I couldn't put it down. It's actually a novelized account of Dominican history repleat with popular dialogue and as I've already mentioned some fascinating anecdotes and insights on prominent figures in Dominican history.
From: United States
cibaeno, is there an english translation of that book available for purchase.? my conversational spanish is decent, but i experience a little difficulty reading complicated passages in spanish
From: United States, New York City
dread, unfortunately I don't think it has been translated to english yet.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
what do waiters call pepper mills in Paris?....anyone
From: United States
thank you, cibaeno. one of my regrets in life is my inability to read spanish with greater proficiency. it pains me when i go into bookstores and see literature such as this, knowing that i cannot partake of the joys of reading them without strenuous effort .have a nice day.
From: United Kingdom
goulet, why are you calling for that individual ?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
interesting subject
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 11:49 AM
From: United States, New York
Many of you need to understand, Trujillo did wrong, just like any other gov't did. USA implemented slavery in construction like roads and tunnels. So did Trujillo. It’s okay to say Trujillo was a bad guy, but he did clean up the country. Many people still recall Trujillo "if it were during Trujillo's era the criminal would've been killed". It is wrong, but he did it. Don't forget to say he held the world fair. Plus many people believe Merengue was born during Trujillo's era. I think without Trujillo the Hispaniola could've been divided in more than two. Probably 5 like the 5 cacicazgos.
Now I don't believe I am idolatrizing Trujillo. Before you “can” some of those 700 pages Dominican literature why don’t you make sure you learn to read? Start with small comments.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
this all stinks of nazi memorabilia not history....while on that subject what is the origin of the 4 iron grate windows in the pantheon in the form of small swaztikas
From: United States, New York City
Jcjua, I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt by me dismissing your wikipedia reference, but c'mon. Using wikipedia as a reference when debating or to substantiate a point is like bringing a butter knife to a machete fight. But thank you for the advice anyway. I'll start by reading your "small" comments.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
cibaeno is a very courteous gentleman.... he is a little out there on the left but he will get over it
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 12:17 PM
From: United States, New York
I didn't use wikipedia as a reference, go back and read.
I just called a piece from the source and was giving the name. The tone was set that even the smallest search reflect my point. The whole article is about Haitian-Dominican issue. Someone brought in Trujillo and you just wanted to jump on the Trujillo subject.
Keep reading books men. Just keep reading. Looks like you are better at that.
From: United States, New York City
" Just keep reading. "
I will indeed and I suggest you do the same.
Written by: Belial, 28 Mar 2008 1:41 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Using wikipedia as a reference when debating or to substantiate a point is like bringing a butter knife to a machete fight."
oooo
There's nothing wrong with Wiki, because I use devastatingly all the time.
The snobs who pretend erudition on this or that subject turn up their noses at Wiki, because they prefer that argument be won or lost on basis of conceit rather than information, which Wiki richly supplies.
From: United States, New York City
uggh..for the umpteenth time anyone, and I repeat anyone, can contribute an article to wikipedia with little or no oversight. Though there are indeed wikipedia articles that are scholarly works the same cannot be said about all the entries which casts doubts on the entire enterprise as far as I and many other people are concerned. No college professor worth their weight in salt would accept a paper where references in the bibliography point to the wikipedia and that's a fact. If wanting reliable sources is considered snobbery in your book belial then by all means consider me a snob.
From: United Kingdom
Rrrright! (sight) come on guys lets trying to keep the collegial atmosphere alive
(sorry but wikipedia can play no part in any intelligent discussion).
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
you mean to say he was not?
From: United Kingdom
Didn’t members of the Cobert Nation multiply the number of elephants(on wikipedia), thereby lifting them from the endangered species list(lol)
If any body was to mention wikipedia in an academic setting of any reputation you would be promptly laughed out of the room
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
what about the "grand lizard Duarte" and the klan
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 2:33 PM
From: United States, New York
Ah, college boys. that's what you guys are! BTW, a bottle of Johnny will help you pass that paper with no time. I know, the proffesor has so much interest in you as the salary he is getting.
if you are still in college and want to think you're still a blank slate then keep reading your books. Don't worry, one day you'll come out of the cave.
What marrayo happened with the main topic?
Written by: Belial, 28 Mar 2008 2:44 PM
From: United States, Texas
"No college professor worth their weight in salt would accept a paper where references in the bibliography point to the wikipedia and that's a fact. If wanting reliable sources is considered snobbery in your book belial then by all means consider me a snob."
oooo
I am grief-stricken, but so be it.
Since a "professor worth their weight in salt" is a rarity or impossibility, we must resort to Wiki.
From: United States, New York City
"Since a "professor worth their weight in salt" is a rarity or impossibility, we must resort to Wiki."
LOLOL...There's definitely some interesting characters on this site...I'm loving it...
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
belial was recently released from a home for the criminally insane ...he is non violent most of the time if he takes his thorazine
He is also known as the wanker from wiki
From: Haiti
Cibaeno you aren't joking..some people on here I wonder about..Ok wikipedia isn't taken seriously in the academic world and anyone quoting from there as there main source aren't going to get the respect at the round table. JC, any bafoon can go on there and type whatever they want or change/edit the topic. This genre of infotechnology is still at its infant stage but the old fashion books will never be replaced..ok, we've talked about hatians,dominicans, trujillo, telecommunication, infotech.. What's next? I gosh I should've asked...
Written by: JCjua, 28 Mar 2008 3:20 PM
From: United States, New York
Written by: lord1804, 28 Mar 2008 3:34 PM
From: Haiti
sak paca dancer aler............
sak ap fete Jacob???????
What's the topic today folks? I'm enjoying the beautiful air in Haiti........
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 3:39 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Any ideas about what could be discussed next?
From: United States
Wazzup, Jabao? haven't heard anything too light-hearted from you in a while. yes, it's me, the guy who does a little shopping in the colmado ( the ones you say are not for " buena gente") have a nice day.
Written by: lord1804, 28 Mar 2008 3:44 PM
From: Haiti
Why dark skin Dominican call themselves Indian instead of African. Please don't take it the wrong way it's just a question..
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 4:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I haven't found a satisfactory answer to that question yet, mr. Lord1804, but here's my theory: Due to the different economic model that prevailed on Spanish Santo Domingo, the african descended people would not suffer the abandonment and opression that were the rule on French Saint Domingue, because, if there's a clause that the spanish followed to the letter on all their colonies (and this would be followed thoroughly on our country), is the one about educating their slaves on the christian religion and the ways of the europeans. In other words, they were taught to love all things white and to despise everything that reminded them of their former homeland, a set of beliefs that didn't allow them to create their own dialect or set of religious beliefs as it happened on French Saint Domingue, where the brainwashing of the slave was so thoroughly ignored that it would give them the chance of creating their own dialect (kreyol) and religious beliefs (voodoo).
From: Haiti
Dreadlock yes I remember you, I have a tendency to recall people that are very educated and make sense. bon weekend mon ami. Lord1804 please let's not get into the race subject. It is something that is complicated and pointless to discuss. It isn't productive. C'est juste mon opinion. Lautaro, I have no idea what's next on the board. Alot of things are stirring up in haitian politics with double citizenship as the number 1 topic.
Written by: lord1804, 28 Mar 2008 4:31 PM
From: Haiti
Mercy beaucoup patron
Double citizenship I’m for it and I’m against it. I know it’s an oxymoron…
I believe the Diaspora would benefit a great deal with double citizenship as far as politic concern. Many Diaspora that I come across in Haiti said double citizenship would allow them to be part of the Haitian politics and they would invest more in there home land. Double citizenship would give Diaspora to much leverage because they would benefit from campaign abroad and home. What about me that’s just holding a Haitian passport how do I reach those that are abroad
From: United States
Jabao, you are entirely too generous with your compliments. stay well ,old timer.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
the french also imported slaves at a 20 to 1 ratio to the spanish
From: Haiti
Lord1804, Dual citizenship as an excellent idea and frankly might be the only solution for haiti to break the mold and allow new ideas to blossom. Look at the dominican republic. They have dual citizenship and now the old schools have to throw more than chicken and a few pesos to persuade voters. Dom-Yorks what to be part of the decision making in their homeland and contribute. It hasn't left anyone out but made some of the old fashion ways to be more competitive..Besides, just because your from the diaspora doesn't give you special preference. Haiti needs it for the betterment of the country.. Look at the senator that has benefited from it which went to dominican republic to avoid persecution. I think the dominican people needs to know the real deal but I am reluctant to speak to much and know it can effect me as well.. Lautaro do you know what im talking about..anyone..
Written by: lord1804, 28 Mar 2008 5:02 PM
From: Haiti
I know who you are talking about and he's name star with a B and was born in New York. well, he did't deliver anything in the northwest and he's promise was two school every year and we got Zero school every year. if it will benefit Haiti I'm all for it but how did he benefit Haiti?
From: United States
on an entirely different topic( is this permissible?), i just saw on television the Governor of Puerto Rico being dragged into court in handcuffs, having been charged with corruption. anyone care to hazard a guess as to whether or not we will ever see such a sight here in the near future?
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
You're talking about the senator (or should I say ex-senator?) from Ouanaminthe, now, if you are to playing a hiding identity game, then all I can say is that his full name contains the letters RB, mr. jabao. :-)
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Mar 2008 9:31 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well dred, the day we get to have that sight over here, will be the day when hell finally freezes over. I apologize if I'm being too pessimistic, but sometimes I can't help it, seeing as how things are run over here.
From: United States
Mr Lautaro, i read your theory on why black dominicans call themselves "indios". my respect for your intellect grows by the day. keep on writing, my brother!!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
yeah I read it as well and I thought it was horse puckey
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Sak pase Jaboa, allowing to ask you a question about the whole citizenship issue for a moment. I left Haiti since I was six and thus became an American citizen at a young age. Does that disqualify me from being citizen of Haiti even if I was too young to choose which nationality I want?
Written by: Belial, 28 Mar 2008 11:33 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Why dark skin Dominican call themselves Indian instead of African. Please don't take it the wrong way it's just a question."
0000
Black Dominicans will do and say anything to get into and dance beside bourgeois mulattoes and trashy "whites" at the exclusive Tonic nightclub in Santo domingo, especially now that this nite club .... and others like it ... have become really exclusive by denying admission to black US diplomats from the US embassy, wealthy Caribbeans and Africans.
The only way for black Dominicans to get into the club and dance is to become Indians.
"No blacks allowed," the Tonic bouncer tells a dark-skinned Dominican at the door.
"Me no black, Me dark-skinned Indian," the black Dominican lies.
From: United States
here is one for you guys to ponder: Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.( Benjamin Franklin) sound like anything with which you are familiar?
From: Haiti
Lautaro, yes that's him. He got caught up in his own web but is doing his best to redeem his post. One of the reason why he needs that post is to not answer to the alleged accusation of the murder of Jean Dominique because of revealing Pharval Lab that Boulos owns killed many haitian children with cough syrup that he knew was contaminated. OK, enough but I seriously think dominicans need to know more of haitian politics. Sorry for speaking in codes but these mysterious are many reasons of haiti's problem and I prefer not to expose them for safety and personal welfare. Be careful since he owns many businesses in the DR and very influential in dominican politics. I wonder what the ultra nationalist dominicans feel about this? Dropping a dime on him..tsk tsk.he has alot to do with the bar of the poultry for his personal interest.
From: Haiti
Jemesouviens, according to the very contradictory constitution you renounces your haitian nationality once you became a US citizen. Many haitians have dual citizenship already although haitian law doesn't permit it but hey we are talking about a place where connections and money make things happen. Dual citizenship is long over due for haitians abroad. Your money has made a sector in haitian even richer while you have no say of how things are managed. If we look at all of the prominent businessmen and politicians all hold or the majority own a foreign passport. They dont want you to obtain dual citizenship because you'll make a difference and they're way of doing things would be challenged. Only if dominicans would know how many haitians are running their side of the island as if it were there own backward which make the average haitian & average dominican live in a cycle of poverty and misfortune..ok.neg mwen pa vle raconter plis..a la prochaine..
From: Haiti
Belial why blame dominicans for everything. Haiti has the same issues where blacks can't get into clubs get bad service because they can't speak french and many more discrimination and racism that would shock the average foreignor and make NGO's go out of damn business...Read Lautaro's post regarding this and you will understand better. BTW, many blacks in Latin America suffer with this issue due to colonization and conditioning of rejecting their ancesty/lineage. OH gosh, I've said enough..haitians and dominicans must be down each others throat..proceed..
Written by: JOHNUSA , 29 Mar 2008 2:16 AM
From: United States
This question is to any righteous individual in this forum. What is the origin of "Meringue"?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
it is the stuff on top of a pie is it not? But then again I am not so righteous
Written by: JOHNUSA , 29 Mar 2008 10:56 AM
From: United States
Correction to my question on March 29,2008, 2:16 AM. I meant what is the origin of "Merengue"?
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 11:19 AM
From: United States, Texas
"Belial why blame dominicans for everything. Haiti has the same issues where blacks can't get into clubs get bad service because they can't speak french"
0000
I've always believed a moderate degree of national centricity is good and necessary for self-esteem.
But what takes place at the "Tonic" and like places in Santo Domingo is NOT primarily anti-Haitian (but only incidentally anti-Haitian); so, you invoke your national centricity at the wrong time and for the wrong reason.
For example, the Tonic refuses to let black US diplomats and millionaires enter and dance and refuses to let black diplomats and millionaires from The Bahamas enter and dance.
You imply that black US, Bahamian, and Dominican citizens should not feel offended, because Tonic treats Haitians the same way or worse. That's centricity.
Well, if the Haitians put up with insults, that's their business & their choice.
But it''s isnt for Haitians to defend the Tonic & places like the Tonic in Haiti.
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 11:20 AM
From: United States, Texas
I would applaud if somebody burned the Tonic down with its dancing bigots inside.
By the way, how many dancing bigots can be stuffed into the Tonic?
People who don't want to become suddenly and ridiculously "Indians" ... as many black Dominicans ... often long for a timely fire that will solve their problems with dancing bigots.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
belial uber racist and follower of the rev Wright
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
you and dred are cut from the same cloth
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 11:51 AM
From: United States, Texas
By the way, one of the reasons that the Tonic and similar places in Santo Domingo bar black US diplomats attached to the US embassy is that this discrimination attracts to the Tonic and thrills white US diplomats attached to the US embassy, dispite the US embassy putting such places on its off-limits list for all embassy personnel whether they are US and DR.
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 11:56 AM
From: United States, Texas
"you and dred are cut from the same cloth"
0000
I understand that Steve Harper, the Canadian prime minister, who kisses and then wipes the rear of George W. Bush has requested an appropriation of over a billion dollars [CA] from parliament to further fund the interminable genocide against the people of Afghanistan, a genocide that has already claimed several million lives.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
what does this have to do with you being a racist swine
From: Haiti
Belial I understand your concern regarding this issue but just because I'm haitian doesn't mean I have to defend anything..Besides, I am not even black. Anyway, my point is DR isn't the only place that practice this form of private party tonight to bar a particular group to party. Besides go somewhere else and spend your money since you aren't going to change dominican society. As long you werent physically harm for being black I dont see the outrage. I know it is a blow to the ego and isn't right but hey c'est la vie. I think there are more important issue that needs to be address and you have insulted my nationality because of your misconception. You assuming I am black and face discrimination in the DR due to my nationality. I mean my african american brothers and other blacks have to understand that they aren't in their society and instead of fuss about make them pay by spending your money somewhere else. You have the purchasing power. One thing if this happens in Haiti would
From: Haiti
would you be equally offended. I know several clubs that don't allow blacks. My point is this isn't just a dominican issue but an over all issue in latin america due to colonization and the class system which trickles down to discrimination/racism. I think you letting this get to you is doing more harm than good. You can leave the island whenever you want to, imagine the blacks that can't and have to deal with it..I'm sure they've found an alternative and have more fun than standing looking cute at these prestigous clubs, rather than having a good time..go to ave venezuela and you see the difference..it might not be as classy but you;ll sure have some fun..hey just dont let your dominican friends with money know you've gone to aquel lado to party..classism here is worse than the racism/discrimination
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 12:25 PM
From: United States, Texas
"what does this have to do with you being a racist swine"
oooo
Murdering millions of the Afghani people or supporting such activity is precisely what racist swine do.
Naturally, you defend the racist swine to whom you belong.
From: United States, New York City
"I would applaud if somebody burned the Tonic down with its dancing bigots inside."
LOLOL..i just logged in and I'm already laughing....the banter on here is definitely special...
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 12:45 PM
From: United States, Texas
"You assuming I am black"
0000
I assume only that as a Haitian you are "mostly likely" black, just as I assume that as a US citizen, you are "most likely' a Latin American.
As for the asssumption that Haitians are most likely black or ,at least, Lebanese, I still hold it and expect to hold it for some time.
I am aware from the experience of some US blacks, some US Latinos and some US Asians that an element of many national minorities pass for "Indian" or "white" or, most often, "Puerto Rican" as well as aware of an element of the Caucasoids ... e.g.,French revolutionaries who fought for 19th century Haitian Revolution ...who by either birth or naturalization or culture or ideology or something else are full members of a national minoriity which is sometimes the victim of the oppression and exploitation of the bourgeois Caucasoids.
From: United States
so is the logic, Cibaeno. i mean, if you decry racism, then you are a racist. Belial and myself make reference to the fact that discotheques like the Tonic bar entry to blacks, and characterise that behavior as racist. Goulet, the philosopher extraordinaire, calls us racist for expressing those ideas. where else but in this forum could one expect to find such pearls of wisdom? as i said before, this forum has gone to the dogs, and to the swine. at least other fora have moderators who try to maintain the level of exchange above the kindergarten line.
From: United States, New York City
Belial,I don't know what benefits "passsing" for puerto rican would bestow upon anyone here as they are viewed pretty much the same as othe hispanics....I can't begin to tell you how many times after I've corrected non-latins who initially assumed i was puerto rican by informing them the I'm actually dominican I recieved the infuriating response of "what's the difference?"...they are two different nationalities, that's the difference!...as far as tonic I suggest that people just boycott the place....cosa semejante no se debe aceptar en la republica
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 1:04 PM
From: United States, Texas
"As long you werent physically harm for being black I dont see the outrage."
0000
Honor of self that is not claimed and defended is not honor, but contempt of self.
You apparently have self-esteem problems.
I hope you don't take that observation as an offense, for, I asssure you, it is not intended as such.
You have your way of defending or abandoning your honor, if any, and I and other victims of the arrogance of racist swine have ours.
From: United States
cibaeno, i concur with you that places such as Tonic should suffer a boycott, but here is the reality: blacks need not, and cannot, boycott it, since they are not allowed in anyway. whites probably see no reason to boycott it, since its behavior does not offend their sensibilities. some whites with conscience probably do find it objectionable, but if the majority did, and expressed this sentiment, management would have no option but to rescind the policy.
Written by: Lautaro, 29 Mar 2008 1:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
There are no such things as consummer solidarity or consummer protection on this country, mr. cibaeño, because if there were, a lot of articles of first necessity would not be as astoundingly costly as they are right now, because people would band themselves together in order to boycott the merchant that is expoliting them with those prices. Instead, the common citizen prefers to buy the product no matter its price, just to show his/her fellow citizens that he/she is more powerful than them.
From: United States, New York City
goulet, since "maldiciendo" in exagerated terms that which is scorned is a common trait amongst dominicans belials comments just caused me to chuckle...must we take everything so literally?
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 1:12 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Belial,I don't know what benefits "passsing" for puerto rican would bestow upon anyone here as they are viewed pretty much the same as othe hispanics"
0000
Oh no, PRs are presumed to be US citizens.
In the old days, PRs could go places that many blacks, Asians, even Jews, and non-PR Latinos couldn't go.
All the PR had to say to get in was "Wait a minute, I'm a Puerto Rican."
Then the doors of Valhalla opened.
From: United States, New York City
maybe passing for puerto rican might benefit a dominican living in pr, . it really wouldn't mean anything to most non-here. There are plenty of people walking around here that can't even comprehend the differene between an Indian and a Pakistani, a jamaican and a trinidadian, etc...you know it's true...
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
burning down nite clubs with people inside is a common and horrible crime .....to advocate this kind of thing shows the double standard to which these racists adhere...they would scream like scalded dogs if a white person made a similar statement.....They are black separatist two faced liars
From: Haiti
Dread, I would say it is a form of racism but why allow it to get to you. There are many other clubs that any black person can go to and have more fun. I am no way condoning this attitude as it is unacceptable. What Im saying is the gentlemen, Belial, has internalize this and has obviously effected him may also tarnish him. You guys are here to have fun not allow the ugly side of dominican society to effect you. Boycotting the club is a joke..you are applying another societies way of thinking to another society. I say yes speak about but dont let it hurt you. This guy has promoted this club without even realizing it..Unfortunately whites wont do anything since it isnt going to effect them. This is a sensitive issue and should be taken seriously. I hope I haven't offended you. Racism is something we all should tackle whether white or black or in the middle. Belial what are you talking about..puerto ricans. U have given these fools at that club power by acknowledging them.
From: United States
Jabao, you dont have to be reserved when you discuss racism with me. i am the guy who has always advocated that technology may change, but human nature cannot. there is no difference between human DNA 1000 years ago than that of today. mankind can try to be better, but it cannot really happen, realistically. each individual has to do his best to be fair and just, but wholesale change is something you and i will not live to see. heck, i am overjoyed by incremental improvements. i am just dying to see a few black guys even changing the tires on a NASCAR car, let alone driving one!!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
In all seriousness country music and the blues and soul are closely related cousins ....it took me many years to realize this but it all started in each others churches....Lyle Lovett is an example of someone that can show us all this truth...the immortal.Ray could also
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
In all seriousness country music and the blues and soul are closely related cousins ....it took me many years to realize this but it all started in each others churches....Lyle Lovett is an example of someone that can show us all this truth...the immortal.Ray could also
Written by: Belial, 29 Mar 2008 4:07 PM
From: United States, Texas
"In all seriousness country music and the blues and soul are closely related cousins .."
0000
Contemporary country is today as much soul as country. A lot of soul hits were originally country hits.
W. Houston biggest hit was written by Dolly Parton. And there's Ray.
Classical country has more distinct features, particularly in tonality, phrasing, and instrumentation.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
yes belial go on or is that all you have to say pray tell
Written by: antonioj, 3 Apr 2008 12:49 PM
From: Canada, home safe
JRRubirosa
" I do live in the US, but the current goverment destroyed the american economy, mighty power and there is a US$450,000 debt for every household, few trillion dollars in debt own to the chinese and finally all banking institutions and big companies are laying people off and loosing money in the millions and billions."
Do you know any math at all ?? or perhaps you are having issue understanding the news. Your figure of US$450,000 debt for every household is fictive. I am surprised no one notice that, goes to say no one is really giving much attention to your illogical analogy, that you spew in a daily basis. lmao
Try $100 a month, that is $1200 per household a year.
You should check your facts, Go to night school to get a GED, because if ignorance was a crime you will be in jail.
Written by: JOHNUSA , 6 Apr 2008 12:49 AM
From: United States
lol
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"Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa."
You mean
1. Gouletcolonial
2. Perception
3. Jemesouviens1804
Whenever something positive is said about DR, you HWWDTF can't hold your tongue and start bashing and doubting our accomplishments.
PS. HWWDTF = Hatians Who Wish Dominicans To Fail
Stop assassinate others character, but you should assassinate there opinions, there comments and let’s stop calling each other name but rather criticized there views.
Lord
Vivre libre ou mourir
Freedom is for all…
From: United States
Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa
I will second that
DR and HT relations are definitely improving. Rene Preval Garcia and Leonel Fernandez Reyna are cooperating very well. HIspanola needs to and will work together for the greater good. I agree that outside forces are trying to hold things back but this cooperation will continue. It's inevitable.
The good book says it means "dark and gloomy."
Where did the ambassador such a rare word?
"Your deformed brains need to be re-adjusted to the present reality"
Your frustations must be adress to your "Lazy" goverment not to others, since Your group
is always whining about something that is supposed to be managed from Your country.
HT and DR need each other so whatever your thoughts are they need each. Let’s stick to the article only and let’s move forward. Haitian loves Haiti to the infinite power and I’m sure Dominican feel the same way about DR. let’s see how we can benefits from each other and let’s see how we can share Ideas instead of putting each down.
I have faith on you guys to do better…….
One man is not a Team!
Let’s try to ignore the others that do not desire to keep this segment of conversation positive. Like I said before HT and DR need to stop letting third party influence there decisions, and the direction of there respectful country.
With all do respect that will never happen. Just to give you a little History of USA and DR in the dark ages. When DR get there independence from HT, they had offer the USA the opportunity to be there colonial and the US declined. The US is not in a position to take on more responsibility right now, and if HT was able to defeat great Napoleon, the great US of A will go down the same path.
HT will always VIVRE LIBRE
0000
JOHNUSA, the tenebrous, did you know that in the USA, the word "John" means, among other things, a room where humans excrete or a place where humans deposit the waste their bodies produce.
JOHNUSA, I have some waste that my body produced, which I want to deposit. Will you be in Houston, Texas during the next few days?
oooo
This seems true.
And it seems very promising for the future.
Are you trying to imply DR would've been better off?
Do you mean like Puerto Rico is today?
Or like Iraq is today?
Solving the problem is a benefit for the country, but not for the small groups profiting from the problem. Wait and see who the DR Gov't will size with.
Has the UN stabilized Haiti with all the time it's been in the country?
Are Haitians running from themselves?
if you want to talk about serious problems you can start here. Don't blame DR.
sorry, couldn't resist...
And don't go to Christ yet...we'll get there later.
We can respect each other, no problem, but let's stay on our side of the island. First war, before the unification of the two countries. The only way I would accept the union of the island is that it be under dominican control and all haitians deported somewhere else. I bet Canada, the UK, the US, and other european countries would gladly open its doors for millions of their new citizens from Haiti. Well, I guess I'm a "negative force" for saying what I believe. There's no secret "powerful groups" here or "racist agenda", just the opinion of an individual. And with that said, I'll leave the drama to the Dalai Lama.
The DR bourgeoisie sic DR workers onto Haitian workers, whom the bourgeois hires, to keep the Haitians in line.
At the moment, it works although slavery is spreading.
The DR worker is trying to figure out who is taking his job away ... is it the Haitian worker or the DR bourgeoisie?
A similar story is being played out in PR and USA.
It will be a little difficult and probably one of the main issues telling Dominicans where they went wrong. Many Dominicans don't even understand the issue.
Yet, you can not condemn a country for the sole reason of being in its own territory and believing their territory to be itsown. I don't like the sound of that, but it is reallity today.
Look at the so called Developed countries on this same issue. You can not expect "underdevelop" countries to resolve issues that "developed" countries are still dealing with.
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={6E55AE39-8372-4CA9-B95D-D4035915A3D8})&language=EN
mirror in the "Haitian people irresponsability"
To make an example "Japan" and the "Japanese" were "Bombed", "Destroyed" and "Humiliated" by the US and they along with the "Germans" were the WWII "Pariahs" but nowadays They are both well developed, civilized and part of the "G8" countries which means that "They" have the
civilized and powerful will to be 2 well advanced contries.
Bottom line is that "Haiti" and "Haitians" don't want to go the extra mile for anything in life other than being the political victim in "Dominican Republic"
Show me something different and I will personally apologize and humiliate myself to be "Different"
Look at France They were harassed due to the fact that They didn't want to join the "Irak" coalition 5 years ago and look now which economy is falling part.
I do live in the US, but the current goverment destroyed the american economy, mighty power and there is a US$450,000 debt for every household, few trillion dollars in debt own to the chinese and finally all banking institutions and big companies are laying people off and loosing money in
the millions and billions.
Your points have no foundation on logic, maybe Haiti would be better off but not Dominican Republic.
0000
They are plagued no more than the USA.
With respect to drug trafficking, they are plagued 1000 times less than the USA.
With respect to corruption, they are also plagued less than the USA, but the USA knows how to cover up its corruption better.
Look at the Jack Abramoff thing which exposed all of the GOP legislators. USA simply picked a few scapegoats and the other GOPs walked.
The corruption associated with Halliburtion and US mercenaries is on such a grand scale that the crooks in the DR and HT can't even imagine or conceive the magnitude of the greed involved.
But that's not the issue here.
You don't have to look too far for a comparison:
Haiti -very poor people, due to gov't mishap.
DR -human rights (slavery), corruption.
PR -supported by USA, got in trouble when USA pulled out some help to the gov't.
Cuba -communism, limited freedom, mayor destination for sex tourism.
Now, where do you want to be?
1846 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to France. (FAILED)
1849 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States. (FAILED)
1861 - The Dominican government voluntarily returned the Dominican Republic to Spain. The Dominican Republic is the only Latin nation to do so. (EMBARRASSING)
1868 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States yet again. (OH! NO NOT AGAIN)
1873 - The Dominican government tried selling to the United States of America the Dominican Republic for 1.5 million dollars. The United States Senate refused. (WHAT A SHAME)
1906 - The Dominicans succeeded on selling their souls to the United States. (YOU KNOW THE REST)
2008- To Be Continued....
The Dominicans would always argue that they are not Anti-Haitian and they were simply protecting their sovereignty.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have tried to return their side of the island back to France in 1846
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have offered their country to the United States for the taking in 1849.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have voluntarily returned their side of the island to Spain back in 1861
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had attempted to sell their side of the island to the United States back in 1873 for 1.5 million dollars.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had signed a 50 years treaty with the United States given them (The US) complete control over their administrations.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't be under Spain's control today in the 21st century 2008.
Somebody Plea
Great question! And please keep them coming..
Lord1804, without mentioning USA or another country outside the island, what do you think the problem is?
The problem is not just USA, France, Canada and the European Union but since you ask to go beyond those listed above I will do just that.
The problem with HT starts with the elite which is about 5-7% of the population if not less. The elite control about 80% of the country wealth and the Government control about 10% and the other 10% if not less is in the air. I’m sure you can see where this going.. The Haitian elites are the most stubborn elite on earth, and they are controlling the economy of the country. The Haitian can be the president and make the laws and so on but at the end of the day MONEY MAKE THE GOES ROUND. The elite can turn on the government anytime they don’t see a profit and make matter worst those elites are USA, Canada and France citizens. I must apologize for using France, USA an
must apologize for using France, USA and Canada as you insist but they are internally embattled in HT.
I sure my now if you are not from HT that you know we are or they are a Rebel without a cause nation, but sometime they do have a cause. Most Haitian want to be a leader but don’t know the first thing about leading a country and that’s another problem. Haitian Presidents plan for now not for the future and I must exclude Rene Preval because I can’t judge him right now. The building of a nation one must star with
1. Security
2. Laws must follow
3. Education and without education we will not have security nor will laws follow.
I can list thousands of items but we can’t accomplish them without Security, Laws in place and the proper education to execute these items. Please let me know if I should proceed.
I’m willing to be defeated in order to Win, but Haitian doesn’t want to be defeated so we will never Win……..
Lord1804
One man is not a Te
Do you wish Haiti could attract investors as DR does? I believe it is in the interest of almost every country to get people to invest. Too many examples starting with the USA, it’s just common sense.
Dreadlocks, look at the gov’t of each of the four countries mentioned. Each one of them went their different ways. Now look at where we are today and how time has paved our way. The DR system works. I’m not afraid to talk about the growth of the Dominican economy. PR cannot talk by itself. Cuba cannot talk at all; you really don’t know what’s happening with the country you can only speculate. Haiti took a close system to the DR system, but like lord1804 said, power wants it that way. Power of money.
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes.
What’s the most stimulus thing in the world dear?
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes. Every nation is different in there own way so what’s work for DR might not work for HT and what’s work for HT might not work DR. You have to remember Haiti started on a Huge hold by giving France 190 Franck which is equal to 21 billions dollars so we will never be able to make a faire comparison to Haiti. Yes DR system is doing a lot better and I agree HT need foreigner to invest in the country.
Wait a minute, let's not talk about culture or do you mean rice and beans, Sancocho, abichuelas con dulce(sweetened beans), palm tree roof house, merengue, bachata, perico ripiao. Most of the buildings were built by foreigners. Tell me, what are we loosing to the foreigners?
1- Everytime that Buenaventura Baez tried to pursue his treacherous plans, he'd meet the stiff resistance of Luperon and the Blue Party, which represented the will of the dominican people at the time.
2- On the two occassions that the USA invaded the country (1916 and 1965), it would find itself meeting stiff resistance from the dominican people, first with the gavilleros and then from the constitucionalistas. (cont...)
You don't want to hear some DR company is making money because using the cheap labor. You want the investors in DR but sharing its income with its employees. The gov't should probably penalize the companies that use illegal workers labor. Not that it'll be good for Haitian immigrants, but again Haiti needs to look at the problem with their system.
I’m not sure that I follow where you going but please enlighten me some more and please excuse my ignorance or my slow process of your statement.
Let’s agree to disagree for a better tomorrow for both HT and DR.
as long as they keep " investing", all will be well. people should be schooled in the difference between investment and speculation.
3- Trujillo may have been a monster, but it is also true that, without the structures tha he set on foot, the dominican state and its relatively well-off economic status (at least well-off if one would compare it with the one of Haiti) would be nonexistent, and perhaps the DR would be facing the same economic straits that its neighbour is currently facing. One have to remember that the disorder of provincial caudillismo and the corruption of the Vazquez administration were the things that made Trujillo's rise to power a possibility. I know that to ask of you (or any haitian, on that account) for an impartial evaluation of Trujillo's dictatorship is an impossibility, is not the less true that dominicans like me, while condemning the many crimes committed by him and his accomplices, can not fail to recognize that, without the hiatus of order that his dictatorship represented, the DR of today would be no better than Afghanistan, in the sense that it (cont..)
Lord 1804
Kisa wap pale la. Are you sure you know anything about Haiti? There are alot of foreign investors in Haiti now despite the MINUSTAH's presence. Haitians abroad do travel to haiti very often and flights haven't decrease despite the problems. Haiti needs to adjust to a democratic society and overcome corruption & she'll be just fine..Piga ou pale tin tin la pliz..wap fè nou yont. Please inform yourself about Haiti..All due respect a fellow compatriot. Lakay se lakay..ok piti
0000
If there were any truth in this accusation, Cuba would have the AIDS problems of the USA or DR.
UN researchers consistently find that the rate of AIDS in Cuba is the lowest in the western hemisphere, including the US and Canada.
The bourgeois propaganda that tries to belittle Cuba extraordinary accomplishments in health care spreads and promotes the rubbish about "sex tourism" in Cuba.
Of course, there are whores in Cuba. but the whores in Cuba don't reflect an exploitative policy of the proletarian state. The Cuban whores are individuals who pursue the life of a lumpen in opposition to the policy of the state.
In USA, over a million children live off the streets, many of whom are whores. The state doesn't mind in the least.
In DR, the lure of child prostitutes in a key factor behind 3,000,000 foreigners who visit every year, the highest number of tourists in the Caribbean.
I don’t take it at all as a disrespect young brother but we need more investor, more tourism and I don’t mean just Haitian.
Mwen remain Ayiti tancou ciro miel never mean any disrespect but read the comment again to see what I meant.
What else is there beside the Balance Sheet, Cash flow is the most important thing in any investment. Since you mention Balance Sheet I guest you might know how a thing or two . If your expense exceeding your revenue that’s equal to a net lose, so why would Codetel make it easy for Digicel to inter the market?
I disagree with this assesment completely. Its as if to say that the Dominican people could not have acheived advances as a society without the spectre of dictatorship, which is nonsense. It's precisely that kind of thinking that keeps people looking out for the next "strong man" to resolve their problems for them. Trujillo's legacy is that of blood and corruption. Maybe not today but i intend to start a forum here so that we may discuss Trujillo's regime in depth so as to dispell many of the myths that have been perpetuated with regards to said regime and the supposed "benefits" it brought the Dominican people.
Dred,
Let’s stay within the scope of your question and your question had nothing do with business management. I agree with you if a business is not managed correctly it will be in the red. We were not discussing the fundamental of a successful business but your point is taken.
Extort heavy monetary sums?!? At the time of Trujillo's death his fortune was valued at somewhere in the neighborhood of 800, 000, 000 1961 US dollars (Some reports dating from the time placed him as one of the wealthiest individuals on the PLANET). That would be billions of dollars in today's money. Not bad for someone who grew up on the dusty streets of San Cristobal. I don't think Arias ever wielded either enough influence or power to gather for himself the tidy sum Trujillo managed to procure from the Dominican people. A few superficial signs of modernity stemming from his regime and all of a sudden the man should be canonized! The man was a theif, a murderer, and a degenerate.
P.S sorry for my pretentiousness, but can you guys take US election topic to the new forum section( I personally like Obama).
LOL . Do you honestly give Trujillo credit for ending the era of "concho primo"? That was acheived by AMERICAN intervention. The US were the ones responsible for ending the reign of the local caudillo. Trujillo was just a caretaker of what was handed to him, a pacified populace. But in the Americans so doing they simply robbed the people of the opportunity to acheive a Dominican solution to a Dominican problem. Now we will never know if left to their own devises would the Dominican people have said enough in unison and have finally sat down to work on the art of government as other societies with similiar violent backgrounds were able to do in the past. I sincerely feel that we were robbed of acheiving something great as a people because of, once again, foreign intervenion.
Merengue predates Trujillo and it is from the cibao region, from which Trujillo was not.
Again you are giving credit to Trujillo for something accomplished by the Americans. Do you know what Arias was doing during the American occupation? Laboring in Santiago, throughout the whole occupation. When he finally decided to take to the "lomas" again against Trujillo his powerbase in the northwest was already a thing of the past. I agree that in all probability a strong man would've likely emerged from the turmoil that followed Caceres but It would've been someone produced by our society, not some degenerate pimp imposed on us by a foreign power, and even that might not have been the case. You mentioned japan. Japan didn't have invaders impose order on them from the outside, they produced individuals that were able to consolidate the state within the context of their own society. Just look at what japan is today.
That is true goulet, but Japan was a world power all on its own before she went down in defeat during the second world war.
I doubt that very much. People already lived in absolute fear of the regime throughout the fifties. Foreigners who knew the country well before Trujillo would comment on the change that occured in the Dominican character. It was noted that a poeple that were once jovial and outgoing had become rather secretive and weary of strangers. There were already signs of dissafection for the regime early on. It was just impossible to form any type of oppsostion that could've been effective at the time.
It's not counterproductive to clear up misunderstandings when it comes to interpreting history. You wish to concede to Trujillo things that he cannot take credit for or be given credit for. The end of the era of "concho primo" was due to American intervention.
Again, if left to their own devises the Dominican people might have benefited greatly after Trujillo's fall. But what happened when the people rose to demand a return to constitutional government and were on the verge of securing it? Foreign intervention. Those societies you've mentioned didn't have anyone come form the outside and impose order on them once their dictatorships fell for whatever reasons. They made the transition to an open society on their own. Dominican were not given that opportunity.
Merengue is a dance and music of the Dominican Republic (East Hispaniola). It is very similar to Méringue which is popular in Haiti. Merengue was made the official music and dance of the Dominican Republic by Rafael Trujillo.-From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
I had no idea. Now if you like merengue you should give thanks to Trujillo for making merengue ours. Haiti, we have more in common than many Dominicans think.
I second that
Of course I'm aware of Paquito's rise to power with the help of aid from the fascist powers of the time (mussolini also provided aid). Aid and intervention are too different things, goulet. It's one thing for me to supply you with arms and maybe a few battalions, it's another thing for me to come in and take over the whole operation and sideline all sectors of the native population in doing so. One is that act of an ally (which the before mentioned powers were to franco's nationalist movement), the other is the act of an arrogant bully.
Where have a shown any paranoia for America? I love this country, I just disagree with how she's interracted with some of the sister republics in the hemisphere in the past. I'm failing to see the point you are trying to make, goulet. Please elaborate. And no one is attempting to give you a history lesson in anything. I just continued the discussion from the point of reference you provided. Sheesh goulet, get that coffee in your system before you explode on someone!
I will believe more the freedom of speech than the teacher-student old technique. You are talking about the world that taught that Pluto was a planet.
Of course you don't have to believe me. But if you have any beef with wikipedia go and take it with them. Or just go back to the history books and believe everything they say. Good luck in life.
As for me I am the believer of free software and free licensing. Hence free thought.
GNU Free Documentation License
Free Software Foundation, Inc.
http://www.nylxs.com
That's all they had to do. Without implicit US support I doubt if Trujillo would've been able to consolidate power. To paraphrase Bosch, In the dr a call from the American ambassador's office to any dominican general illicits more of a response from said general than if the Dominican president himself called him.
you are running away from our Haitian haritage. I'm sorry brother but there are things in life which we can't hide. Not that I would want to hide it, but it seems that you want to.
looks like you were schooled with old history books and now you don't want to think out of the box. Well grow up cibaeño75 and come back when you have something else than what was written in the "Nacho" books.
Of course. You can scan through some of my other posts that allude to my knowledge of events in Chile's history but we were not discussing his rise to power, we were discussing Chile's transition from dictatorship to open society. In any event CIA AID to pinochet is well documented but again aid and direct intervention with the use of troops are two different things. At the very least I can say this about Pinochet: He became a general based on his own merit within his society, he didn't win his position in life by kissing up to foreign invaders and providing them with whores and booze as was the case with Trujillo.
It's my understanding that Trujillo fell in love with the Cibao variant of the merengue while stationed there as a young guardia. He is definitely responsible for forcing it down the throats of the capitaleño elite but it was already a popular musical form within the country among the rural peasantry and the urban dwellers in the interior. I've heard rumors through word of mouth that Trujillo did indeed compose some merengues but I've never encountered any documented evidence to verify it. And Jcjua, no one has denied that merengue might have haitian roots, but the current form of merengue, which stems from what is called merengue tipico, was the local variant of the genre that originated in the cibao region. Relax and breath.
Now I don't believe I am idolatrizing Trujillo. Before you “can” some of those 700 pages Dominican literature why don’t you make sure you learn to read? Start with small comments.
I just called a piece from the source and was giving the name. The tone was set that even the smallest search reflect my point. The whole article is about Haitian-Dominican issue. Someone brought in Trujillo and you just wanted to jump on the Trujillo subject.
Keep reading books men. Just keep reading. Looks like you are better at that.
I will indeed and I suggest you do the same.
oooo
There's nothing wrong with Wiki, because I use devastatingly all the time.
The snobs who pretend erudition on this or that subject turn up their noses at Wiki, because they prefer that argument be won or lost on basis of conceit rather than information, which Wiki richly supplies.
(sorry but wikipedia can play no part in any intelligent discussion).
If any body was to mention wikipedia in an academic setting of any reputation you would be promptly laughed out of the room
if you are still in college and want to think you're still a blank slate then keep reading your books. Don't worry, one day you'll come out of the cave.
What marrayo happened with the main topic?
oooo
I am grief-stricken, but so be it.
Since a "professor worth their weight in salt" is a rarity or impossibility, we must resort to Wiki.
LOLOL...There's definitely some interesting characters on this site...I'm loving it...
He is also known as the wanker from wiki
http://www.elcaribecdn.com.do/art....88B757EA9CBE26627D&Seccion=63
Hatians will be able to work in DR as long as the migratory laws are followed.
sak ap fete Jacob???????
What's the topic today folks? I'm enjoying the beautiful air in Haiti........
Double citizenship I’m for it and I’m against it. I know it’s an oxymoron…
I believe the Diaspora would benefit a great deal with double citizenship as far as politic concern. Many Diaspora that I come across in Haiti said double citizenship would allow them to be part of the Haitian politics and they would invest more in there home land. Double citizenship would give Diaspora to much leverage because they would benefit from campaign abroad and home. What about me that’s just holding a Haitian passport how do I reach those that are abroad
0000
Black Dominicans will do and say anything to get into and dance beside bourgeois mulattoes and trashy "whites" at the exclusive Tonic nightclub in Santo domingo, especially now that this nite club .... and others like it ... have become really exclusive by denying admission to black US diplomats from the US embassy, wealthy Caribbeans and Africans.
The only way for black Dominicans to get into the club and dance is to become Indians.
"No blacks allowed," the Tonic bouncer tells a dark-skinned Dominican at the door.
"Me no black, Me dark-skinned Indian," the black Dominican lies.
0000
I've always believed a moderate degree of national centricity is good and necessary for self-esteem.
But what takes place at the "Tonic" and like places in Santo Domingo is NOT primarily anti-Haitian (but only incidentally anti-Haitian); so, you invoke your national centricity at the wrong time and for the wrong reason.
For example, the Tonic refuses to let black US diplomats and millionaires enter and dance and refuses to let black diplomats and millionaires from The Bahamas enter and dance.
You imply that black US, Bahamian, and Dominican citizens should not feel offended, because Tonic treats Haitians the same way or worse. That's centricity.
Well, if the Haitians put up with insults, that's their business & their choice.
But it''s isnt for Haitians to defend the Tonic & places like the Tonic in Haiti.
By the way, how many dancing bigots can be stuffed into the Tonic?
People who don't want to become suddenly and ridiculously "Indians" ... as many black Dominicans ... often long for a timely fire that will solve their problems with dancing bigots.
0000
I understand that Steve Harper, the Canadian prime minister, who kisses and then wipes the rear of George W. Bush has requested an appropriation of over a billion dollars [CA] from parliament to further fund the interminable genocide against the people of Afghanistan, a genocide that has already claimed several million lives.
oooo
Murdering millions of the Afghani people or supporting such activity is precisely what racist swine do.
Naturally, you defend the racist swine to whom you belong.
LOLOL..i just logged in and I'm already laughing....the banter on here is definitely special...
0000
I assume only that as a Haitian you are "mostly likely" black, just as I assume that as a US citizen, you are "most likely' a Latin American.
As for the asssumption that Haitians are most likely black or ,at least, Lebanese, I still hold it and expect to hold it for some time.
I am aware from the experience of some US blacks, some US Latinos and some US Asians that an element of many national minorities pass for "Indian" or "white" or, most often, "Puerto Rican" as well as aware of an element of the Caucasoids ... e.g.,French revolutionaries who fought for 19th century Haitian Revolution ...who by either birth or naturalization or culture or ideology or something else are full members of a national minoriity which is sometimes the victim of the oppression and exploitation of the bourgeois Caucasoids.
0000
Honor of self that is not claimed and defended is not honor, but contempt of self.
You apparently have self-esteem problems.
I hope you don't take that observation as an offense, for, I asssure you, it is not intended as such.
You have your way of defending or abandoning your honor, if any, and I and other victims of the arrogance of racist swine have ours.
0000
Oh no, PRs are presumed to be US citizens.
In the old days, PRs could go places that many blacks, Asians, even Jews, and non-PR Latinos couldn't go.
All the PR had to say to get in was "Wait a minute, I'm a Puerto Rican."
Then the doors of Valhalla opened.
0000
Contemporary country is today as much soul as country. A lot of soul hits were originally country hits.
W. Houston biggest hit was written by Dolly Parton. And there's Ray.
Classical country has more distinct features, particularly in tonality, phrasing, and instrumentation.
" I do live in the US, but the current goverment destroyed the american economy, mighty power and there is a US$450,000 debt for every household, few trillion dollars in debt own to the chinese and finally all banking institutions and big companies are laying people off and loosing money in the millions and billions."
Do you know any math at all ?? or perhaps you are having issue understanding the news. Your figure of US$450,000 debt for every household is fictive. I am surprised no one notice that, goes to say no one is really giving much attention to your illogical analogy, that you spew in a daily basis. lmao
Try $100 a month, that is $1200 per household a year.
You should check your facts, Go to night school to get a GED, because if ignorance was a crime you will be in jail.