Written by: gouletcolonial, 26 Mar 2008 8:17 AM
From: Canada
OK all the posters who are in this category [negative forces] and tenebrous sectors...joined by maneuvers from abroad......get ready to jump in....you know who you are ....phony bleeding hearts...always trying to stir up the mob....accusing people of horrible behavior to suit their racist agenda...this article is custom made for you....here they come listen to the drumbeat...they will not rest until they have dragged the reputation of the Dominican Republic down...They are the same group who installed the present disaster in Haiti during the Clinton administration....let the lies begin
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 26 Mar 2008 9:20 AM
From: United States
Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa.
Written by: CarlosFranco, 26 Mar 2008 9:59 AM
From: United States
"Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa."
You mean
1. Gouletcolonial
2. Perception
3. Jemesouviens1804
Whenever something positive is said about DR, you HWWDTF can't hold your tongue and start bashing and doubting our accomplishments.
PS. HWWDTF = Hatians Who Wish Dominicans To Fail
Written by: gouletcolonial, 26 Mar 2008 10:10 AM
From: Canada
carlos franco obviously you dont read very well...or comprehend very well...I support every positive economic step this country makes....I do not dismiss it as exploitation.....a new project ....others say it was stolen for a cheap price from the poor locals....not me ...you got the wrong guy....look at the bleeding hearts,the knee jerk leftists they have fooled you carlos franco.....they are whiners and complainers who have a hidden agenda ....A ..LA ..CHAVEZ...and are looking for opportunities to make trouble
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Mar 2008 10:28 AM
From: Haiti
Carlos,HWWDTF that is a good one but you are diverting your fustration at the wrong people. Why would haitians want the DR to fail? Is there a deep issue in the dominican psyche to think that haitians that share the same island want them to suffer. I think you should re-read the article because it is basically talking about how people like you are manipulated to think this way. I mean I am fustrated that the average dominican & average haitian still can't clear the smoke screen to see the truth which both countries population have been used for a few groups personal interest. I mean you just dont know and it's ok but you are directing your fustration at the people you should be siding with to resolve these issues. Sometimes I feel like posting all of the haitian-dominican businesses in the DR and the names of both groups who are milking the well dry of both countries but I fear of retaliation and honestly people arent ready yet..read the article again.
Written by: gouletcolonial, 26 Mar 2008 10:31 AM
From: Canada
jabo I truly like the direction of your post...outside agitators are trying to fan the flames
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 10:48 AM
From: United States
Goulet, i know you have been trying to bait me with your posts, and i will oblige you. as the old saw goes, time is money. why are you wasting time dicking around with silly remarks when you could be gainfully making even more money? shouldn't you be somewhere in africa, killing a few hundred worthless natives to steal and peddle blood diamonds? what about buying a few ghetto buildings, then turning the heat off on the poor tenants so their kids can freeze to death? ah, yes, shouldn't you be crafting some scheme to embezzle some old lady out of her life savings? how about the old tried and true standby, selling cars with backed up odometers to college students?maybe a few insurance scams for laughs? a little shylock business on the side? hey, its all the free market, buddy. dog eat dog. biggest ,baddest man prevails. he who has the gold makes the rules! the poor be damned; they are just irritants.those who defend them are bleeding heart liberals. well, Goulet, someone has to defend
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 10:53 AM
From: United States
the poor from miserable swine such as yourself. as one other poster observed of you, you are everything that is bad about the world. you are a cancer in society, a parasitic vermin who profits from the ill fortune and shortcomings of others. you use superoir knowledge of a subject to put others in disadvantageous positions, wherein you can fleece them and call it " the way the ball bounces". people like you should be caged and fed through bars. at least i advocate for those who need advocacy, not the donald trumps of the world, who have no need for you anyway. a pox on your house, you miserable slime of the yukon!( sorry, Belial, i could not help borrowing that)
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 26 Mar 2008 11:00 AM
From: United States
That was terrific CarlosFranco....I have to applaud you on your creativity. Im mean, this is coming from a DWLIP( Dumbinican Who Lives In the Past). You probably wake up everyday complaining about Haitians and what they did, do, and could do to your beloved Republica Dominicana.
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 11:01 AM
From: Haiti
DR and HT need to come to a common ground in order for either country to be more successful into the next generation. Both presidents in my view are working toward that path but the international community does not want to see a strong relationship between DR and HT. The Hispaniola Island is one and it’s indivisible, so it’s up to the children of both countries to make a better tomorrow. DR can claim to be better than HT all they want, but economically in order for DR to be self independent, HT will play a huuuge part in it “pay attention to how I spell huge, it was done deliberately” vice-versa for HT to be self independent DR will play a huge part, in order words folks HT need DR as much as DR need HT.
Stop assassinate others character, but you should assassinate there opinions, there comments and let’s stop calling each other name but rather criticized there views.
Lord
Vivre libre ou mourir
Freedom is for all…
Written by: gouletcolonial, 26 Mar 2008 11:22 AM
From: Canada
you threw the whole deck of slimy race cards at me this time....I must have hit the right buttons...again your talk of helping the downtrodden rings loudly hollow...a smoke screen for your true agenda
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 11:53 AM
From: United States
what is racial about the remarks i made? is there a "race " of people who hold exclusive rights to the maladies i adumbrated? just which race might this be? in my experience, the nigerians in new york are some of the worst offenders in the scenarios i describe. i do not know what race you are, and quite frankly, i don't care. a parasite is a parasite, whatever his race or ethnicity. do you think i would rather be swindled by an african-american than an italian, for example? as long as the result is the same, who cares? you just refuse to accept my assertion that certain things should transcend money. you belong to that group of people who characterise the scientists who are worried about global warming as kooks and pinkos. you believe that any government regulation to protect the environment will have adverse effects on business, and since money making should be the only human endeavour worth consideration, they are heretics. but i understand you, Goulet. a man such as yourself
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 12:00 PM
From: United States
lives in a total state of disconnect from the human race. you have no friends, your neighbors probably detest you, and when you put lampshades on your head at parties, people do not find you funny. so to you, humanity and human beings have no value. the only coefficient of value you can arrive at is money. the more, the better: better people have more money, or something like that. well, i beg to differ. i am against the selloff of this country. you would be too, if you had any intellectual preparation in sociology and economics. this is the only country dominicans can call home. should the unthinkable happen in the future, and they be expunged from the USA, where will they go? and do not tell me it cannot happen: just go ask the jews in spain in 1492, and in hitlers germany.ask the moors. technology changes, human nature does not. this crap could happen again, then what? dominicans running around looking to set up home in myanmar? because all the good, available land has been sold
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 12:01 PM
From: United States
to outsiders? there is a difference between investment and consumption: caution has to be exercised in order to understand the difference!! finally ,do you believe that the countries which do not allow foreigners to own land do so because they read an opinion by Dreadlocks in Dominicantoday?
Written by: antonioj, 26 Mar 2008 12:01 PM
From: Canada
jemesouviens1804, 26 Mar 2008 9:20 AM
From: United States
Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa
I will second that
Written by: ny4life, 26 Mar 2008 12:30 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Dredlocks and Goulet, your bickering downgrades the quality of the discussions. You guys need to take that somewhere else. It seems you both come out of the extreme and therefore, bump heads.
DR and HT relations are definitely improving. Rene Preval Garcia and Leonel Fernandez Reyna are cooperating very well. HIspanola needs to and will work together for the greater good. I agree that outside forces are trying to hold things back but this cooperation will continue. It's inevitable.
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 12:50 PM
From: United States
ny4life, i apologise to you and other readers for having dragged this forum into the morass. but if you follow the threads carefully, it will become apparent to you that Gouletcolonial follows me around like a child , always trying to bait me into some sort of spirited response, apparently for his entertainment. i took a one month hiatus from posting, and even then he kept making incessant remarks about me, like the coward he is. my failing is that i retaliate: most other posters have the good sense to ignore him.i will try to exercise more restraint in future, and i concede culpability. strangely enough, saturn and i started off on the wrong foot, but we both developed mutual respect, since we have the study of economics in common, so we ended up trading ideas instead. Goulet, on the other hand, seems bereft of intellect, so we cannot, sadly, find common ground!!
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 1:13 PM
From: United States
"“Tenebrous?" I can't recall seeing it.
The good book says it means "dark and gloomy."
Where did the ambassador such a rare word?
Written by: gouletcolonial, 26 Mar 2008 1:19 PM
From: Canada
saturn whupped you with the pinata stick real good.....he beat you like an Iraqi prisoner.....so you better be nice to him or he will do it again....whack whack
Written by: gouletcolonial, 26 Mar 2008 1:24 PM
From: Canada
belial has awakened from his nappy....the guards have allowed him to return to the computer....what will he have to say?.....let me guess......
Written by: JRRubirosa, 26 Mar 2008 2:15 PM
From: United States
Jemmesouviens and antonioj:
"Your deformed brains need to be re-adjusted to the present reality"
Your frustations must be adress to your "Lazy" goverment not to others, since Your group
is always whining about something that is supposed to be managed from Your country.
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 2:24 PM
From: United States
The Yukon slime is trying to speak.
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 2:47 PM
From: Haiti
I think if most of you guys try to control your emotion than we might be able to accomplish something, but if not we are wasting our time and energy.
HT and DR need each other so whatever your thoughts are they need each. Let’s stick to the article only and let’s move forward. Haitian loves Haiti to the infinite power and I’m sure Dominican feel the same way about DR. let’s see how we can benefits from each other and let’s see how we can share Ideas instead of putting each down.
I have faith on you guys to do better…….
One man is not a Team!
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 3:00 PM
From: Haiti
NY4file,
Let’s try to ignore the others that do not desire to keep this segment of conversation positive. Like I said before HT and DR need to stop letting third party influence there decisions, and the direction of there respectful country.
Written by: JOHNUSA, 26 Mar 2008 3:21 PM
From: United States
The USA need to invade DR and HT and make them commonwealth like Peurto Rico.
Written by: lord1804, 26 Mar 2008 3:32 PM
From: Haiti
JohnUSA
With all do respect that will never happen. Just to give you a little History of USA and DR in the dark ages. When DR get there independence from HT, they had offer the USA the opportunity to be there colonial and the US declined. The US is not in a position to take on more responsibility right now, and if HT was able to defeat great Napoleon, the great US of A will go down the same path.
HT will always VIVRE LIBRE
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Mar 2008 3:59 PM
From: Haiti
Ok let's not get besides ourselves or have wishful thinking. I mean reading some opinions here is a brain drainer and counter productive. Haitians & Dominicans really need to take a deep breath and discuss solutions and social reconciliations. It is inevitable that the two countries that share the same island need to wake up & realize how to overcome negative campaigns and build a bridge to overcome our differences and just simply respect each other.
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 4:02 PM
From: United States
"The USA need to invade DR and HT and make them commonwealth like Peurto Rico," says JOHNUSA, 26 Mar 2008 3:21 PM.
0000
JOHNUSA, the tenebrous, did you know that in the USA, the word "John" means, among other things, a room where humans excrete or a place where humans deposit the waste their bodies produce.
JOHNUSA, I have some waste that my body produced, which I want to deposit. Will you be in Houston, Texas during the next few days?
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 4:06 PM
From: United States
"Despite this situation, which in his view disturbs the Dominico-Haitians relations, Serulle said presidents Leonel Fernandez and René Preval are also concerned and seek common ground to solve the problems of their two nations. "
oooo
This seems true.
And it seems very promising for the future.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 4:11 PM
From: United States, New York
Johnusa, what is your reasoning for the USA to invade DR and HT?
Are you trying to imply DR would've been better off?
Do you mean like Puerto Rico is today?
Or like Iraq is today?
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 4:38 PM
From: United States, New York
Evidently Haitians need to go over to DR to work. Dominicans can benefit from their labor. Allowing Haitians to work in DR and compete for Dominicans’ jobs will drive labor costs down and that’s something we don’t want. Sending all illigal Haitians out of the country locking the gate and throwing away the keys will promote illegal immigration and actually benefit those being bribed. Now, where do we draw a line?
Solving the problem is a benefit for the country, but not for the small groups profiting from the problem. Wait and see who the DR Gov't will size with.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Mar 2008 5:03 PM
From: Haiti
Sir JC, the situation is far more complex than what you described above. One way to curtail illegal haitians from crossing the border is to stabilise Haiti where jobs will be created and inform those that venture to the other side illegally pay consequences such as the young lady that was shot. Now this is were it gets complicated the dominican elite can't afford to lose this cheap labour ,and don't want to,where the outcome is more productivity and cost less than hiring a native. Haitians think the sun shines brighter on the other side just as Dominicans feel of Puerto Rico. Just imagine if Puerto Rico shared a border with DR. I personally blame both governments for a laissez faire attitude which further complicates the issue with dominicans of haitian descent are not recognize in their place of birth and the dominican population wanting a hand out rather than a hand up. How many dominicans want to work in the construction and other sectors where haitains have simply filled
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Mar 2008 5:09 PM
From: Haiti
cont. a void. As yourself this question? If haitians were not doing this job would the dominicans take these jobs if they were paid more? I have to say the majority would still complain and will do less. Ok Im generalising here but the average dominican have become spoiled with remesas a form of welfare and fascination of making it big if they make it to Puerto Rico and New York. The reality is Haiti needs to improve its standard of living for the mass and DR needs to respect human rights and prevent its people from wanting to leave by any means necessary. Very complicated situation and will not get solved overnigt but if the two groups work with each other than cause confusion less people will get swallowed up by exploitation.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:23 PM
From: United States, New York
Is the UN still in Haiti?
Has the UN stabilized Haiti with all the time it's been in the country?
Are Haitians running from themselves?
if you want to talk about serious problems you can start here. Don't blame DR.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:30 PM
From: United States, New York
I will say, if USA had borders with DR or Haiti they would have build a wall long time ago.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 26 Mar 2008 5:44 PM
From: United States
Well what do you know, the "Anti-Christ" is back at it again(Haitians are god's people and if you against them your against Christ). Every single day your bashing Haitians/Haiti as if it were you after school activity and when someones says something about you, you cry and moan like a little b****. Please just let it out "papi" and say that you just don't like Haitians at all. You are a worthless excuse for a human being. Thank god that not all Dominicans are an idiot like yourself.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:46 PM
From: United States, New York
At least we sent money back home...
sorry, couldn't resist...
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 5:55 PM
From: United States, New York
Jemes, what are the wealth distribution percentages in Haiti?
And don't go to Christ yet...we'll get there later.
Written by: JRRubirosa, 26 Mar 2008 6:45 PM
From: United States
Jemmesouviens: grow up.....................
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Mar 2008 7:24 PM
From: Haiti
JC, you are missing the point. Read my comments again. HAITIANS aren't blaming the DR for the problem in haiti. As I said prior the average dominican aren't ready to have a real sit down about this subject.
Written by: Trujillo, 26 Mar 2008 8:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
JabaoHaitian: Haitians ARE blaming the DR for the problems in Haiti. Not only haitians, but people from other caribbean countries as well and I have many personal experiences to be convinced of that. The truth is that Haitians are to blame for Haiti's problems.
We can respect each other, no problem, but let's stay on our side of the island. First war, before the unification of the two countries. The only way I would accept the union of the island is that it be under dominican control and all haitians deported somewhere else. I bet Canada, the UK, the US, and other european countries would gladly open its doors for millions of their new citizens from Haiti. Well, I guess I'm a "negative force" for saying what I believe. There's no secret "powerful groups" here or "racist agenda", just the opinion of an individual. And with that said, I'll leave the drama to the Dalai Lama.
Written by: dreadlocks, 26 Mar 2008 8:28 PM
From: United States
trujillo, i must concede that that is a novel idea. lunatic, but novel. do you surmise that that could be the reason for the purchase of the super tucano aircraft?
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 8:57 PM
From: United States
The DR bourgeoisie hires the Haitian workers.
The DR bourgeoisie sic DR workers onto Haitian workers, whom the bourgeois hires, to keep the Haitians in line.
At the moment, it works although slavery is spreading.
The DR worker is trying to figure out who is taking his job away ... is it the Haitian worker or the DR bourgeoisie?
A similar story is being played out in PR and USA.
Written by: JCjua, 26 Mar 2008 9:13 PM
From: United States, New York
JabaoHaitian, I agree with you somewhat. And the main issue for Dominicans is human rights.
It will be a little difficult and probably one of the main issues telling Dominicans where they went wrong. Many Dominicans don't even understand the issue.
Yet, you can not condemn a country for the sole reason of being in its own territory and believing their territory to be itsown. I don't like the sound of that, but it is reallity today.
Look at the so called Developed countries on this same issue. You can not expect "underdevelop" countries to resolve issues that "developed" countries are still dealing with.
Written by: Belial, 26 Mar 2008 9:22 PM
From: United States
Does anybody know why the Irish act like ... or worse than ... DRs, PRs, and USs when the Irish deal with Brazillians?
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={6E55AE39-8372-4CA9-B95D-D4035915A3D8})&language=EN
Written by: JRRubirosa, 26 Mar 2008 9:30 PM
From: United States
Sure that the "Easiest" solution is to blame Dominican Republic while countries like US, France and Canada support and have an agenda to "Brainwash" the planet about an illusion that has its
mirror in the "Haitian people irresponsability"
To make an example "Japan" and the "Japanese" were "Bombed", "Destroyed" and "Humiliated" by the US and they along with the "Germans" were the WWII "Pariahs" but nowadays They are both well developed, civilized and part of the "G8" countries which means that "They" have the
civilized and powerful will to be 2 well advanced contries.
Bottom line is that "Haiti" and "Haitians" don't want to go the extra mile for anything in life other than being the political victim in "Dominican Republic"
Show me something different and I will personally apologize and humiliate myself to be "Different"
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Mar 2008 11:48 PM
From: Haiti
Trujillo, I actually respect your opinion and everyone should have that liberty to express themselves without being P.C. Although, you are not realistic of the situation it is good to hear every spectrum to try to resolve this delicate issue. The fact is Haiti/DR are stuck on the same island and wish they can separate but that would never happen. As much there are misinformed super patriotic dominicans throwing a fit without knowing the situation there are many of my compatriots who do the same. Now the minority who know the truth on both sides just live on and go about there business or you'll find a few like myself that try to make sense for the good of both societies. Now I think one individual has humiliated himself enough and needs to know that USA literally rebuilt Europe with the Marshal Plan. The hispaniola plan is to keep haitians and dominicans at each others throat while the culprit runs of to cash in off our ignorance and lack of corporation. So where do we go from her
Written by: JOHNUSA, 27 Mar 2008 1:47 AM
From: United States
The problem is DR and Haiti are plagued with corruption and drug trafficking. Two failed nations unable to govern themselves. Poor Dominicans and Haitians are dying everyday because of the greed of both governments. The people of DR and HT deserve better than that. This is why both people should petition their country to annex them to the USA, the best and greatest country in the world. God Bless America.
Written by: JRRubirosa, 27 Mar 2008 8:32 AM
From: United States
JohnUSA: your lattest comment is "Nearsighted" since the "Evil empire" is on decadence and loosing its power to harass other countries.
Look at France They were harassed due to the fact that They didn't want to join the "Irak" coalition 5 years ago and look now which economy is falling part.
I do live in the US, but the current goverment destroyed the american economy, mighty power and there is a US$450,000 debt for every household, few trillion dollars in debt own to the chinese and finally all banking institutions and big companies are laying people off and loosing money in
the millions and billions.
Your points have no foundation on logic, maybe Haiti would be better off but not Dominican Republic.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 8:56 AM
From: United States
actually, Rubi, the debt to the chinese is not " a few trillion" it is hovering around one trillion, give or take a few billion.
Written by: Docpeters, 27 Mar 2008 8:57 AM
From: United States Virgin Islands
History repeats itself. There is nothing new under the sun. Frederick Douglas was correct in 1890. Frederick Douglas was the U.S. ambasador to Haiti. He wrote about his experiences while living in Haiti. He said that there were groups on the island of Hispaniola who were creating problems for Haiti because Haitians were primarily black. He also said that those groups were upset that the slaves took over the island and that they will do their best to make sure that Haiti never enjoys stability. Furthermore, amongst the confusion, those elites groups can make money. The past holds true today. However, it does not mean that the situation cannot be changed. The answer is education. It takes a highly spiritual man to ignore skin color. A spiritual man can look at a man's qualities and faults. Only God can look at the heart. A regular man on an animalistic level looks at skin color. Becoming a spiritual man takes you to another level. You need God to reach that level!
Written by: Belial, 27 Mar 2008 9:00 AM
From: United States
"The problem is DR and Haiti are plagued with corruption and drug trafficking."
0000
They are plagued no more than the USA.
With respect to drug trafficking, they are plagued 1000 times less than the USA.
With respect to corruption, they are also plagued less than the USA, but the USA knows how to cover up its corruption better.
Look at the Jack Abramoff thing which exposed all of the GOP legislators. USA simply picked a few scapegoats and the other GOPs walked.
The corruption associated with Halliburtion and US mercenaries is on such a grand scale that the crooks in the DR and HT can't even imagine or conceive the magnitude of the greed involved.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 10:04 AM
From: United States, New York
Johnusa, stop using drugs and we will stop trafficking.
But that's not the issue here.
You don't have to look too far for a comparison:
Haiti -very poor people, due to gov't mishap.
DR -human rights (slavery), corruption.
PR -supported by USA, got in trouble when USA pulled out some help to the gov't.
Cuba -communism, limited freedom, mayor destination for sex tourism.
Now, where do you want to be?
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 10:14 AM
From: United States
actually, JC, PR is not merely " supported" by the USA: it is a commonwealth of the USA. even the post offices read United States Postal Service.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 10:48 AM
From: United States, New York
Find dreadlocks, and your point is?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 10:58 AM
From: Haiti
HT will never become a commonwealth of the USA simply because of our skin complexions, and DR fall into same the category simply because they are part of the Hispaniola Island not BECAUSE USA DON’T WANT THEM to be a commonwealth of the USA. History will always repeat itself and until someone proved me wrong I will say it again, HT will never be peaceful for more than a decade because it’s not good business for the power to be.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 11:38 AM
From: United States, New York
Lord1804, without mentioning USA or another country outside the island, what do you think the problem is?
Written by: gouletcolonial, 27 Mar 2008 11:48 AM
From: Canada
actually JC the P.R. is the U.S.A. and hopefully soon its 51st state
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 11:52 AM
From: United States
heck, Jc, i have no idea what my point is. i am too busy trying to figure out yours. actually , with the exception of communism, all the territories you enumerated have the same characteristics. for example, you say that haiti has very poor people, and that poverty has been occasioned by government . the same applies to puerto rico, cuba and dr. you say that cuba is a major destination for sex tourism: have you ever been to the dr? and haiti is just as guilty of human rights violations and virtual slavery as the dr is. now do you get my point?
Written by: rom1804, 27 Mar 2008 11:57 AM
From: Zimbabwe
Here comes trouble....Now where have I hid that list of DR's little extra carriculum activities.
1846 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to France. (FAILED)
1849 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States. (FAILED)
1861 - The Dominican government voluntarily returned the Dominican Republic to Spain. The Dominican Republic is the only Latin nation to do so. (EMBARRASSING)
1868 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States yet again. (OH! NO NOT AGAIN)
1873 - The Dominican government tried selling to the United States of America the Dominican Republic for 1.5 million dollars. The United States Senate refused. (WHAT A SHAME)
1906 - The Dominicans succeeded on selling their souls to the United States. (YOU KNOW THE REST)
2008- To Be Continued....
Written by: gouletcolonial, 27 Mar 2008 11:58 AM
From: Canada
Puerto Rico is poor? that is relative .....and to what ...not Latin America
Written by: rom1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:04 PM
From: Zimbabwe
It's me again...
The Dominicans would always argue that they are not Anti-Haitian and they were simply protecting their sovereignty.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have tried to return their side of the island back to France in 1846
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have offered their country to the United States for the taking in 1849.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have voluntarily returned their side of the island to Spain back in 1861
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had attempted to sell their side of the island to the United States back in 1873 for 1.5 million dollars.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had signed a 50 years treaty with the United States given them (The US) complete control over their administrations.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't be under Spain's control today in the 21st century 2008.
Somebody Plea
Written by: rom1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:20 PM
From: Zimbabwe
Okay! now where was I? Oh yeah! 1937 now we get to discuss my favorite super villain "Rafael Leonidas Trujillo Molina "AkA" The Dominican Hitler "AKA" the innovator of Antihaitianismo "AKA: Mr. I wear make up so I can look white "AKA" Mr. I had Haitian blood running through my veins but I don't want anybody else to know about it. I can go on and on about him....I the sick perverted mind of me self I would like to say I LOVE YOU Trujillo ohhhhh!!! You are #1. lol let me stop before I make the Dominicans invade me home in me hide out spot in Zimbabwe. hehehehhee.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:29 PM
From: Haiti
United States, New York
Great question! And please keep them coming..
Lord1804, without mentioning USA or another country outside the island, what do you think the problem is?
The problem is not just USA, France, Canada and the European Union but since you ask to go beyond those listed above I will do just that.
The problem with HT starts with the elite which is about 5-7% of the population if not less. The elite control about 80% of the country wealth and the Government control about 10% and the other 10% if not less is in the air. I’m sure you can see where this going.. The Haitian elites are the most stubborn elite on earth, and they are controlling the economy of the country. The Haitian can be the president and make the laws and so on but at the end of the day MONEY MAKE THE GOES ROUND. The elite can turn on the government anytime they don’t see a profit and make matter worst those elites are USA, Canada and France citizens. I must apologize for using France, USA an
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:31 PM
From: Haiti
continued
must apologize for using France, USA and Canada as you insist but they are internally embattled in HT.
I sure my now if you are not from HT that you know we are or they are a Rebel without a cause nation, but sometime they do have a cause. Most Haitian want to be a leader but don’t know the first thing about leading a country and that’s another problem. Haitian Presidents plan for now not for the future and I must exclude Rene Preval because I can’t judge him right now. The building of a nation one must star with
1. Security
2. Laws must follow
3. Education and without education we will not have security nor will laws follow.
I can list thousands of items but we can’t accomplish them without Security, Laws in place and the proper education to execute these items. Please let me know if I should proceed.
I’m willing to be defeated in order to Win, but Haitian doesn’t want to be defeated so we will never Win……..
Lord1804
One man is not a Te
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 12:33 PM
From: United States, New York
Rom1804, is DR succeeding now by selling its land and companies to investors?
Do you wish Haiti could attract investors as DR does? I believe it is in the interest of almost every country to get people to invest. Too many examples starting with the USA, it’s just common sense.
Dreadlocks, look at the gov’t of each of the four countries mentioned. Each one of them went their different ways. Now look at where we are today and how time has paved our way. The DR system works. I’m not afraid to talk about the growth of the Dominican economy. PR cannot talk by itself. Cuba cannot talk at all; you really don’t know what’s happening with the country you can only speculate. Haiti took a close system to the DR system, but like lord1804 said, power wants it that way. Power of money.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 12:43 PM
From: Haiti
United State, New York!
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes.
What’s the most stimulus thing in the world dear?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 1:02 PM
From: Haiti
United State, New York!
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes. Every nation is different in there own way so what’s work for DR might not work for HT and what’s work for HT might not work DR. You have to remember Haiti started on a Huge hold by giving France 190 Franck which is equal to 21 billions dollars so we will never be able to make a faire comparison to Haiti. Yes DR system is doing a lot better and I agree HT need foreigner to invest in the country.
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 1:05 PM
From: United States, New York
Lord1804 that is true for any country but Haiti is becoming a rarity.
Wait a minute, let's not talk about culture or do you mean rice and beans, Sancocho, abichuelas con dulce(sweetened beans), palm tree roof house, merengue, bachata, perico ripiao. Most of the buildings were built by foreigners. Tell me, what are we loosing to the foreigners?
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 1:07 PM
From: United States
when you say that the DR system works, what do you mean? in what respect? there is a concept in economics called factor accumulation, which is a self explanatory term. if that factor accumulation is entered into an econometric model comprising other variables, it can be compared against a base to create a simulated growth index. the base is usually another country or group of countries. (generally speaking, developed countries). in 2007 we had a simulated growth index of 6.3%, but the REAL growth was 1.4% . that, my friend, is called UNDERPERFORMANCE!! Big time!!. and one of the main reasons, ( I NEITHER HAVE TIME NOR SPACE TO GO INTO THIS IN DETAIL) is the lack of education and educational facilities. secondly, we rely too much upon the export of primary products. we hear about how much we are exporting: it is not the amount that counts, its the composition. i could go on all day with this topic, but lets hear someone elses take.
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 1:37 PM
From: United Kingdom
Mike,I'm getting tired of saying that Haiti( and the DR) need to build capital(both physical and human) without help from the international community I don’t see that happening.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 1:48 PM
From: United States
Frank, how do, my friend. i just mentioned you in a post to saturn. get a read of the following article : LOSING GROUND: Latin American Growth from 1955-1999. long and plodding, but you will revel in the many insightful observations of Loxley, Heyneman, and Kavoussi, to name a few. this is right up your alley!!! and secondly, all these folks who revel in the " investment" from outside have never heard of the terms HOT MONEY and speculative capital. they do not realise that these are temporary inflows of cash which follow the high interest fault line. if another venue offers better returns, out goes the cash. which is why we have to look into self generated capital formation. capital in this case means human capital, as you indicated. along with human capital must come social capital, which includes loyalty, hard work and dedication to one's task. those are some of the Confucian tenets which make the eastern countries so formidable. we revel too much in the notion of foreigners buying
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 1:50 PM
From: United States
beaches. we have to consider the input -output ratio of the capital ( although Cobb-Douglas might be considered outmoded). we need a higher ratio of savings to income in order to magnify capital formation
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 27 Mar 2008 2:03 PM
From: Haiti
This is the sort of debate I like. Not reading comments from idiots like Rubirosa. DR's economy is doing much better than Haiti of course because it has had less scars than its neighbor. Haiti is in the situation its in because of its own people to a large degree but it is external factors that have played the biggest role. Haiti was in great debt since its formation and constant foreign intervention has made problems even worse. Then the media does its thing and the country acquires a negative reputation. Embargoes and severed international relations doesnt help does it? The best thing for DR would be for Haiti to prosper as it once did and remain politically stable. Wish what you want but Hispaniola belongs to Haitians as much as it belongs to Dominicans. Both countries share the island so the best thing for everyone would be the advancement and improvement of both nations. The past is the past and we must look towards the future.
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 27 Mar 2008 2:09 PM
From: Haiti
Mutual cooperation benefits both parties. DR is a huge trading partner for Haiti and vice-versa. I can honestly admit that there are too many Haitians in the DR but Dominicans can never admit that their country benefits much more than it is harmed from so many migrants. Without so many Haitian laborers your newly finished metro wouldn't have been completed in its expected timeframe. (By the way I admire the Santo Domingo Metro so kudos to DR for that). Only through positive relations can Hispaniola advance as a whole.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I think that you're making the sad mistake of confounding the intentions of the elites with the ones of the common people, mr. rom1804. For your info, in every opportunity that the colonialism of the elites showed its ugly face, it would find the indomitable will of the dominican people to be free opposing it every turn. You have to remember that the spaniards were expelled after two bloody years of war (1863-1865), a war that didn't have anything to envy the one that your people unleashed upon the french, and that:
1- Everytime that Buenaventura Baez tried to pursue his treacherous plans, he'd meet the stiff resistance of Luperon and the Blue Party, which represented the will of the dominican people at the time.
2- On the two occassions that the USA invaded the country (1916 and 1965), it would find itself meeting stiff resistance from the dominican people, first with the gavilleros and then from the constitucionalistas. (cont...)
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 2:15 PM
From: United States, New York
Let's not speculate about the growth of the DR economy. The system works and for now that is all it matters. If DR could get the issue with slavery fixed it would be in better position to grow.
You don't want to hear some DR company is making money because using the cheap labor. You want the investors in DR but sharing its income with its employees. The gov't should probably penalize the companies that use illegal workers labor. Not that it'll be good for Haitian immigrants, but again Haiti needs to look at the problem with their system.
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 2:17 PM
From: United Kingdom
Mike, that is the dilemma ,because it takes capital to make use of technological change(education in today’s world) and increase labor productivity, since capital represents output that is produced now, for the purposes of increasing productivity later, the creation comes at the expense of current consumption. In simple terms sacrificing consumption in favor of producing capital can speed up real economic growth, but may be headache in the present(amassing wealth at the expense of buying power), the people in power can’t make the tough choices and that’s the problem.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 2:19 PM
From: United States
the fact of the matter, Shin( if i may call you that), is that haiti is one of the major trading partners of the DR, and vice versa. if Haiti is so inconsequential, why was there such an outcry in response to the poultry embargo? does anyone realistically believe that the farmers who are now having to sell eggs at 2 peso per, because of the loss of the haitian market, are not hurting? does that tell some of these boneheads nothing? do they know how many people in this country are making a decent living peddling wares bought in dajabon? when will people just stop smoking hallucinogens and realise that there is a critical symbiosis between the two countries?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 2:25 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro,
I’m not sure that I follow where you going but please enlighten me some more and please excuse my ignorance or my slow process of your statement.
Let’s agree to disagree for a better tomorrow for both HT and DR.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 27 Mar 2008 2:27 PM
From: Haiti
Thank you Dread,Frank long time no read, and Hay. I was getting worried and felt that Haiti & Dominican Rep were doomed due to lack of informed people. Haiti's main concern should be foreign investment that will in turn revitalize the economy with jobs. Now the problem is the elite group want there cut without concern of returning that money back into the country. Also a tax reform needs to be implemented in Haiti which would help build infrastructure & school programs, decentralizing the power from P-au-P to other departments would decrease the congestion in the capitol. A bilateral agreement between the two countries needs to be implemented to get rid of the red tape. Also collaborating forces to combat narcotrafficing & share information to capture rings of crooks that have infiltrated the island. There is a big event that went on with an elite haitians which used dominican for his interest. Ok, let me hush. I think many haitians & dominicans have no clue what's going on.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 2:31 PM
From: United States
exactly, Frank. one of the problems is prioritizing the expenditures. we do not think in the long term: expenditures are usually undertaken for political spectacle. sacrifice has to be made at the outset, and the economy transforms itself evolutionarily. Vietnam, at this point, is not at the same stage of development as Japan, not only in terms of performance, but in structure. Vietnam is what Japan was, a source of cheap labor. the cheap labor model is one that Vietnam plans to use as a short term solution, but plans to focus on education and technology as their backbone, given limited resources. even if they did have a lot of natural resources, they do not want to run the risk of RESOURCE COMPLACENCY, which seems to be happening to us here ,currently. we have this belief that we are in an indomitable position because externals covet our beachfronts.
as long as they keep " investing", all will be well. people should be schooled in the difference between investment and speculation.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic
(contt..)
3- Trujillo may have been a monster, but it is also true that, without the structures tha he set on foot, the dominican state and its relatively well-off economic status (at least well-off if one would compare it with the one of Haiti) would be nonexistent, and perhaps the DR would be facing the same economic straits that its neighbour is currently facing. One have to remember that the disorder of provincial caudillismo and the corruption of the Vazquez administration were the things that made Trujillo's rise to power a possibility. I know that to ask of you (or any haitian, on that account) for an impartial evaluation of Trujillo's dictatorship is an impossibility, is not the less true that dominicans like me, while condemning the many crimes committed by him and his accomplices, can not fail to recognize that, without the hiatus of order that his dictatorship represented, the DR of today would be no better than Afghanistan, in the sense that it (cont..)
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 2:38 PM
From: United States
yes Mr Lautaro: in common parlance, it is called " give the Devil his due!!!
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 27 Mar 2008 2:39 PM
From: Haiti
JC, I think you are out of touch of the real dealings in the DR. I am all for foreign investment like the one in the DR but have you read about the scandals that favored them and not DR. Also it gives dominicans that are abroad a since of pride about the metro and towers being built but are there compatriots going to benefit from this personally. What Im saying is the average dominican barely gets the crumb from these investments. IMO, Fernandez is a great president and one of the best RD has ever had but we have to remember that a country isn't built with under privileged and uneducated people. This reminds me of an Israelians I met at the mall. He was upset that he was tired of the incompetence of this backward country his words not mine. I ask him why stay, his reply, Oh Im in real estate selling to foreignors and make money. The guy didn't speak spanish to put minutes in his phone btw he has screaming at the attendant to add minutes to his phone. My point is the average.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:44 PM
From: Dominican Republic
(cont..) it would find itself lacking the economic and institutional structures for even achieving a moderate economic performance.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 27 Mar 2008 2:45 PM
From: Haiti
dominican isn't going to enjoy this boom and still live in a marginalise area where he/she feels only going to Puerto Rico/NY will solve there woes. The DR system works compared to what country? Ok it is better than Haiti but how does it fair globally well even latin america. I think things are improving but alot of issues needs to be address. Haiti needs to catch up and curtail illegal immigration but it is a major player with DR that needs to improve relations down the line to end this dilemma.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 2:51 PM
From: Haiti
The moral of the story is no foreigner will invest in a country that’s under UN occupation. Yes I agree HT is babbly need investor, so the tourism market can pick up once again. HT downfall benefiting DR and my DR folks let’s not go crazy on me let me explain. Many Haitians world wide do not vacation home because of the instability so they go to DR, many Haitians would like to star up businesses because of the same problem they star there businesses in a more stable country. The loser is HR and that will not change anytime soon. We can call on Jesus or blame USA, France, Canada and Europe nothing will change until Haitians are ready to be change. I don’t blame anybody but ourselves because it takes us to let the others affect us.
Lord 1804
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 2:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic
That's right, mr. jabao. I have always been of the opinion that, if the DR were to achieve more profit from tourism, it would necessarily have to modify the current structure, in which the resorts are nothing more than separate enclaves: in other words, the dollars or euros that enter their coffers hardly ever make their way into the rest of the economic structure, and if they do, they only serve to fatten the already large and unwieldy state bureaucracy. That israeli that you mentioned reminds me of the typical colonial chap: a person that his/her only interest on a given territory is the money that he/she extorts from that colony's purse, then, when that pocket is fat enough, it's time to go home to enjoy the fruits of a well done scam!!
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 27 Mar 2008 3:00 PM
From: Haiti
Lord1804
Kisa wap pale la. Are you sure you know anything about Haiti? There are alot of foreign investors in Haiti now despite the MINUSTAH's presence. Haitians abroad do travel to haiti very often and flights haven't decrease despite the problems. Haiti needs to adjust to a democratic society and overcome corruption & she'll be just fine..Piga ou pale tin tin la pliz..wap fè nou yont. Please inform yourself about Haiti..All due respect a fellow compatriot. Lakay se lakay..ok piti
Written by: Belial, 27 Mar 2008 3:11 PM
From: United States
"Cuba -communism, limited freedom, mayor destination for sex tourism."
0000
If there were any truth in this accusation, Cuba would have the AIDS problems of the USA or DR.
UN researchers consistently find that the rate of AIDS in Cuba is the lowest in the western hemisphere, including the US and Canada.
The bourgeois propaganda that tries to belittle Cuba extraordinary accomplishments in health care spreads and promotes the rubbish about "sex tourism" in Cuba.
Of course, there are whores in Cuba. but the whores in Cuba don't reflect an exploitative policy of the proletarian state. The Cuban whores are individuals who pursue the life of a lumpen in opposition to the policy of the state.
In USA, over a million children live off the streets, many of whom are whores. The state doesn't mind in the least.
In DR, the lure of child prostitutes in a key factor behind 3,000,000 foreigners who visit every year, the highest number of tourists in the Caribbean.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:12 PM
From: Haiti
Pa mwen laykay se laykay. Nous cipose changer paske leur ya rive.
I don’t take it at all as a disrespect young brother but we need more investor, more tourism and I don’t mean just Haitian.
Mwen remain Ayiti tancou ciro miel never mean any disrespect but read the comment again to see what I meant.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 27 Mar 2008 3:12 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro, I've always admired your knowledge and well balance opinion of both countries. It fustrates me to hear dominicans complaining of how hard life is..prices are going up and along with gas prices is making it even harder. It's great for the moral of the country especially dominicans living abroad for branging rights..yeah, we got a metro just like PR but there aren't social programs as a safety net for those that genuinely need a hand up and not a hand out. Sure dominicans abroad are enjoying because they work hard abroad but those that are here don't have that type of many to buy. Illegal haitians are making money although cheap but it isn't slavery..The problem is civil rights and job paying their workers with some benefits. Haiti needs to start a construction boom to return these experience workers back home to build haiti. Bilateral agreements need to be implemented like yesterday
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 3:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Digicel is an example of some of the current investments on Haiti if I'm not mistaken, mr. jabao. I wonder why they hadn't expanded to the DR yet.
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 3:19 PM
From: United Kingdom
Barriers of entry maybe ?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:24 PM
From: Haiti
The transition of Digicel to DR might not happen anytime soon because of political issues and will create to much competition for the others. I believe it would great for DR but of course politic come first
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 3:26 PM
From: United Kingdom
Lord1804, can u be more specific.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 3:30 PM
From: United States
Frank, you are a baaad man!!
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:34 PM
From: Haiti
I believe Codetel is cover about 60-80% of the market and if you pay the right person you can keep anybody out. Digicel application still pending but will not approved if the current president win the next term.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 3:39 PM
From: United States
anything besides their own balance sheet!
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 3:39 PM
From: United States
Mr Lautaro, the colonial chaps to which you allude in your post ,are the ones who bother me. they are into making arbitrage profits, not into developing the country in any way. it is a case of buying in one market, selling in another, and running off with the profits, leaving the locals to sort out the resultant mess while they count their profits. when these types buy a condo, for example, from a dominican, they do not turn around and look for another dominican to sell it to. they look for a foreigner with the financial wherewithal to make the deal very profitable. so they will buy a piece of property for say 30,000, which ,for purpose of example, is the price the dominican traffic can bear. they then offer the property for 60,000, which is a bargain to the foreign contingent, but outside the reach of the equivalent dominican SOCIAL class. this is called buying in one market and selling in another. the only consideration is maximum profit. it has nothing to do with betterment of
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 3:42 PM
From: United States
anything besides their own balance sheet!
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 3:42 PM
From: United Kingdom
Lol, I was just asking because the fellow that owns that company, is quite famous on this side of the pond for his attempts at avoiding even the most minute sums of capital gains(taxes; he is also know for his craftiness.
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 3:43 PM
From: United Kingdom
lets just say he would fit right in.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 27 Mar 2008 3:43 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro, you are absolutely correct. Digicel is one of the many foreign investors in Haiti and they are actually giving back to the community. They sponsor the haitian national football team and are building schools in the provinces. Hopefully they are the one spending the money rather than giving it to the locals. DR has too much competition with all the foreign telecommunication that already exist and would be a harder market. Although there is another telecom company in Haiti that has come to an accord with one of the telecommunication in the DR.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 3:49 PM
From: Haiti
Dred,
What else is there beside the Balance Sheet, Cash flow is the most important thing in any investment. Since you mention Balance Sheet I guest you might know how a thing or two . If your expense exceeding your revenue that’s equal to a net lose, so why would Codetel make it easy for Digicel to inter the market?
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 27 Mar 2008 3:50 PM
From: Haiti
Digicel would have a tough time penetrating the already well-established and dense Dominican telecommunications market. Codetel would run them out the building. I dont know about the future but right now Digicel dominates in Haiti followed (distantly) by Comcel known as Voila.
Written by: cibaeño75, 27 Mar 2008 3:52 PM
From: United States
"Trujillo may have been a monster, but it is also true that, without the structures tha he set on foot, the dominican state and its relatively well-off economic status (at least well-off if one would compare it with the one of Haiti) would be nonexistent, and perhaps the DR would be facing the same economic straits that its neighbour is currently facing. "
I disagree with this assesment completely. Its as if to say that the Dominican people could not have acheived advances as a society without the spectre of dictatorship, which is nonsense. It's precisely that kind of thinking that keeps people looking out for the next "strong man" to resolve their problems for them. Trujillo's legacy is that of blood and corruption. Maybe not today but i intend to start a forum here so that we may discuss Trujillo's regime in depth so as to dispell many of the myths that have been perpetuated with regards to said regime and the supposed "benefits" it brought the Dominican people.
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 3:52 PM
From: United Kingdom
Mike, can you say “bubble” because that what’s being created in the local market.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 3:58 PM
From: United States
by the way, Mr Latauro; be very careful with these calls for a fair return to Dominicans from the fruits of the country's treasure and assets. you might be perceived by certain types as a rabble rouser, trying to disrupt the harmony of the society and having an agenda for wealth re-distribution. you might be seen as an inside agitator!
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 4:05 PM
From: United States
yes, Frank, and the locals are being positioned outside the bubble. i hate to hear people say that SOME Dominicans are able to afford some of the real estate developments. when the starting price of condos in a development is 300,000 usdollars, does anyone realistically believe that it has the local market in mind? and Lord, cash flow is not the most important thing in an investment. you can run all the cash you want through a business, but if it is not correctly managed, it will end up in the red.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 4:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Well mr. cibaeño, you only need to look at the astounding power that caudillos like Desiderio Arias had over their respectve regions, power that was often enough to extort heavy monetary sums from the government without giving a damn about the future of the country. In my opinion, if it weren't for Trujillo's ruthless approach, the country would still be divided in caudillistic spheres of influence today, as in the case of Afghanistan. I'm in no way advocating for a return of a strong ruled gov, I'm just saying that we have better chances to build a stable democracy right now than our forefathers had before the dictatorship, when the country was virtually a no man's land because of the power represented by those warlords and their private armies.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:18 PM
From: Haiti
Dred,
Let’s stay within the scope of your question and your question had nothing do with business management. I agree with you if a business is not managed correctly it will be in the red. We were not discussing the fundamental of a successful business but your point is taken.
Written by: cibaeño75, 27 Mar 2008 4:26 PM
From: United States
"power that was often enough to extort heavy monetary sums from the goverment without giving a damn about the future of the country."
Extort heavy monetary sums?!? At the time of Trujillo's death his fortune was valued at somewhere in the neighborhood of 800, 000, 000 1961 US dollars (Some reports dating from the time placed him as one of the wealthiest individuals on the PLANET). That would be billions of dollars in today's money. Not bad for someone who grew up on the dusty streets of San Cristobal. I don't think Arias ever wielded either enough influence or power to gather for himself the tidy sum Trujillo managed to procure from the Dominican people. A few superficial signs of modernity stemming from his regime and all of a sudden the man should be canonized! The man was a theif, a murderer, and a degenerate.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 4:38 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Would you approve them for the state to ask for permission to a caudillo to make anything on a given province, mr. cibaeño? because the lawlessness was such that the state could not even levy taxes without giving a high percentage of the income to those thieves coffers. Unlike you, I prefer to be robbed by one person instead of being sacked by many on a whim!! It's better to have ONE, unified country instead of having THREE in the same space as it was the case before Trujillo, and all because of the inability, or plain cowardice, of the Santo Domingo elites to put those provincial bandits on their right place, that is, six feet under!!!
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 4:41 PM
From: United States
Lord, go back and read your post of 3.49 pm. you are the one who made the foray into the area of cash flow. anyway, this is too insignificant a subject to divert our attention to.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:47 PM
From: Haiti
let's stay focus...how can we solve the world problem today? LOL
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 4:49 PM
From: United States
which one?
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:55 PM
From: Haiti
USA does have lots of problem right now....
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 4:58 PM
From: Haiti
Are you for Hilary or Barack Obama? I would love to be part of this historic event but I’m for Obama all the way.. Haliry lies to easily I guest that’s a Clinton thing.
Written by: dreadlocks, 27 Mar 2008 5:02 PM
From: United States
it will be a historic event whoever wins. as for a preference: i have never voted in the usa, because i am yet to see anyone who i think is worth it. i would have voted for Jimmy Carter, though, if only because he is a principled person.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 5:04 PM
From: Haiti
If Obama is not worth it, I guest you will never vote in your life........but of course that's just my opinion.
Written by: lord1804, 27 Mar 2008 5:09 PM
From: Haiti
I think Obama is inspiring and he’s massage is a breath of fresh air. I wish I was able to hear more of he’s speech and Hilary to me is just a ?.. don’t really care.. All polititian lies so Obama is no angle
Written by: JCjua, 27 Mar 2008 5:27 PM
From: United States, New York
I don't like Obama. He is too much of a rich boy. The Clintons should go back to power. USA is not ready for a black president; they still dictate who should or should not say "negro" on the airwaves. USA is not ready for that yet.
Written by: Lautaro, 27 Mar 2008 5:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
My favorite is Obama, because he, unlike Hillary, seem not to cater to the corporations' whims. At least that's the message that I'm getting from him.
Written by: FranktheTank, 27 Mar 2008 5:32 PM
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Cibaeño, I think ur missing Lautaro point; before Trujillo, the DR was divided semi feudalist fiefdoms. These were led by some powerful individuals that could sometimes challenge the power of the central government. A “mano dura” Trujillo change that.
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"Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa."
You mean
1. Gouletcolonial
2. Perception
3. Jemesouviens1804
Whenever something positive is said about DR, you HWWDTF can't hold your tongue and start bashing and doubting our accomplishments.
PS. HWWDTF = Hatians Who Wish Dominicans To Fail
Stop assassinate others character, but you should assassinate there opinions, there comments and let’s stop calling each other name but rather criticized there views.
Lord
Vivre libre ou mourir
Freedom is for all…
From: United States
Seems like this article is describing Rubirosa
I will second that
DR and HT relations are definitely improving. Rene Preval Garcia and Leonel Fernandez Reyna are cooperating very well. HIspanola needs to and will work together for the greater good. I agree that outside forces are trying to hold things back but this cooperation will continue. It's inevitable.
The good book says it means "dark and gloomy."
Where did the ambassador such a rare word?
"Your deformed brains need to be re-adjusted to the present reality"
Your frustations must be adress to your "Lazy" goverment not to others, since Your group
is always whining about something that is supposed to be managed from Your country.
HT and DR need each other so whatever your thoughts are they need each. Let’s stick to the article only and let’s move forward. Haitian loves Haiti to the infinite power and I’m sure Dominican feel the same way about DR. let’s see how we can benefits from each other and let’s see how we can share Ideas instead of putting each down.
I have faith on you guys to do better…….
One man is not a Team!
Let’s try to ignore the others that do not desire to keep this segment of conversation positive. Like I said before HT and DR need to stop letting third party influence there decisions, and the direction of there respectful country.
With all do respect that will never happen. Just to give you a little History of USA and DR in the dark ages. When DR get there independence from HT, they had offer the USA the opportunity to be there colonial and the US declined. The US is not in a position to take on more responsibility right now, and if HT was able to defeat great Napoleon, the great US of A will go down the same path.
HT will always VIVRE LIBRE
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JOHNUSA, the tenebrous, did you know that in the USA, the word "John" means, among other things, a room where humans excrete or a place where humans deposit the waste their bodies produce.
JOHNUSA, I have some waste that my body produced, which I want to deposit. Will you be in Houston, Texas during the next few days?
oooo
This seems true.
And it seems very promising for the future.
Are you trying to imply DR would've been better off?
Do you mean like Puerto Rico is today?
Or like Iraq is today?
Solving the problem is a benefit for the country, but not for the small groups profiting from the problem. Wait and see who the DR Gov't will size with.
Has the UN stabilized Haiti with all the time it's been in the country?
Are Haitians running from themselves?
if you want to talk about serious problems you can start here. Don't blame DR.
sorry, couldn't resist...
And don't go to Christ yet...we'll get there later.
We can respect each other, no problem, but let's stay on our side of the island. First war, before the unification of the two countries. The only way I would accept the union of the island is that it be under dominican control and all haitians deported somewhere else. I bet Canada, the UK, the US, and other european countries would gladly open its doors for millions of their new citizens from Haiti. Well, I guess I'm a "negative force" for saying what I believe. There's no secret "powerful groups" here or "racist agenda", just the opinion of an individual. And with that said, I'll leave the drama to the Dalai Lama.
The DR bourgeoisie sic DR workers onto Haitian workers, whom the bourgeois hires, to keep the Haitians in line.
At the moment, it works although slavery is spreading.
The DR worker is trying to figure out who is taking his job away ... is it the Haitian worker or the DR bourgeoisie?
A similar story is being played out in PR and USA.
It will be a little difficult and probably one of the main issues telling Dominicans where they went wrong. Many Dominicans don't even understand the issue.
Yet, you can not condemn a country for the sole reason of being in its own territory and believing their territory to be itsown. I don't like the sound of that, but it is reallity today.
Look at the so called Developed countries on this same issue. You can not expect "underdevelop" countries to resolve issues that "developed" countries are still dealing with.
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={6E55AE39-8372-4CA9-B95D-D4035915A3D8})&language=EN
mirror in the "Haitian people irresponsability"
To make an example "Japan" and the "Japanese" were "Bombed", "Destroyed" and "Humiliated" by the US and they along with the "Germans" were the WWII "Pariahs" but nowadays They are both well developed, civilized and part of the "G8" countries which means that "They" have the
civilized and powerful will to be 2 well advanced contries.
Bottom line is that "Haiti" and "Haitians" don't want to go the extra mile for anything in life other than being the political victim in "Dominican Republic"
Show me something different and I will personally apologize and humiliate myself to be "Different"
Look at France They were harassed due to the fact that They didn't want to join the "Irak" coalition 5 years ago and look now which economy is falling part.
I do live in the US, but the current goverment destroyed the american economy, mighty power and there is a US$450,000 debt for every household, few trillion dollars in debt own to the chinese and finally all banking institutions and big companies are laying people off and loosing money in
the millions and billions.
Your points have no foundation on logic, maybe Haiti would be better off but not Dominican Republic.
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They are plagued no more than the USA.
With respect to drug trafficking, they are plagued 1000 times less than the USA.
With respect to corruption, they are also plagued less than the USA, but the USA knows how to cover up its corruption better.
Look at the Jack Abramoff thing which exposed all of the GOP legislators. USA simply picked a few scapegoats and the other GOPs walked.
The corruption associated with Halliburtion and US mercenaries is on such a grand scale that the crooks in the DR and HT can't even imagine or conceive the magnitude of the greed involved.
But that's not the issue here.
You don't have to look too far for a comparison:
Haiti -very poor people, due to gov't mishap.
DR -human rights (slavery), corruption.
PR -supported by USA, got in trouble when USA pulled out some help to the gov't.
Cuba -communism, limited freedom, mayor destination for sex tourism.
Now, where do you want to be?
1846 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to France. (FAILED)
1849 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States. (FAILED)
1861 - The Dominican government voluntarily returned the Dominican Republic to Spain. The Dominican Republic is the only Latin nation to do so. (EMBARRASSING)
1868 - Former President Buenaventura Báez of the Dominican Republic tried to annexed the Dominican Republic to the United States yet again. (OH! NO NOT AGAIN)
1873 - The Dominican government tried selling to the United States of America the Dominican Republic for 1.5 million dollars. The United States Senate refused. (WHAT A SHAME)
1906 - The Dominicans succeeded on selling their souls to the United States. (YOU KNOW THE REST)
2008- To Be Continued....
The Dominicans would always argue that they are not Anti-Haitian and they were simply protecting their sovereignty.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have tried to return their side of the island back to France in 1846
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have offered their country to the United States for the taking in 1849.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't have voluntarily returned their side of the island to Spain back in 1861
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had attempted to sell their side of the island to the United States back in 1873 for 1.5 million dollars.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't had signed a 50 years treaty with the United States given them (The US) complete control over their administrations.
If their sovereignty were so dear to them they wouldn't be under Spain's control today in the 21st century 2008.
Somebody Plea
Great question! And please keep them coming..
Lord1804, without mentioning USA or another country outside the island, what do you think the problem is?
The problem is not just USA, France, Canada and the European Union but since you ask to go beyond those listed above I will do just that.
The problem with HT starts with the elite which is about 5-7% of the population if not less. The elite control about 80% of the country wealth and the Government control about 10% and the other 10% if not less is in the air. I’m sure you can see where this going.. The Haitian elites are the most stubborn elite on earth, and they are controlling the economy of the country. The Haitian can be the president and make the laws and so on but at the end of the day MONEY MAKE THE GOES ROUND. The elite can turn on the government anytime they don’t see a profit and make matter worst those elites are USA, Canada and France citizens. I must apologize for using France, USA an
must apologize for using France, USA and Canada as you insist but they are internally embattled in HT.
I sure my now if you are not from HT that you know we are or they are a Rebel without a cause nation, but sometime they do have a cause. Most Haitian want to be a leader but don’t know the first thing about leading a country and that’s another problem. Haitian Presidents plan for now not for the future and I must exclude Rene Preval because I can’t judge him right now. The building of a nation one must star with
1. Security
2. Laws must follow
3. Education and without education we will not have security nor will laws follow.
I can list thousands of items but we can’t accomplish them without Security, Laws in place and the proper education to execute these items. Please let me know if I should proceed.
I’m willing to be defeated in order to Win, but Haitian doesn’t want to be defeated so we will never Win……..
Lord1804
One man is not a Te
Do you wish Haiti could attract investors as DR does? I believe it is in the interest of almost every country to get people to invest. Too many examples starting with the USA, it’s just common sense.
Dreadlocks, look at the gov’t of each of the four countries mentioned. Each one of them went their different ways. Now look at where we are today and how time has paved our way. The DR system works. I’m not afraid to talk about the growth of the Dominican economy. PR cannot talk by itself. Cuba cannot talk at all; you really don’t know what’s happening with the country you can only speculate. Haiti took a close system to the DR system, but like lord1804 said, power wants it that way. Power of money.
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes.
What’s the most stimulus thing in the world dear?
The DR system work without a question but DR also lose there culture because of having foreigner invested in DR. Do I wish Haiti adopt the DR system no but I wish Haiti get some foreigner to Invested in the country Yes. Every nation is different in there own way so what’s work for DR might not work for HT and what’s work for HT might not work DR. You have to remember Haiti started on a Huge hold by giving France 190 Franck which is equal to 21 billions dollars so we will never be able to make a faire comparison to Haiti. Yes DR system is doing a lot better and I agree HT need foreigner to invest in the country.
Wait a minute, let's not talk about culture or do you mean rice and beans, Sancocho, abichuelas con dulce(sweetened beans), palm tree roof house, merengue, bachata, perico ripiao. Most of the buildings were built by foreigners. Tell me, what are we loosing to the foreigners?
1- Everytime that Buenaventura Baez tried to pursue his treacherous plans, he'd meet the stiff resistance of Luperon and the Blue Party, which represented the will of the dominican people at the time.
2- On the two occassions that the USA invaded the country (1916 and 1965), it would find itself meeting stiff resistance from the dominican people, first with the gavilleros and then from the constitucionalistas. (cont...)
You don't want to hear some DR company is making money because using the cheap labor. You want the investors in DR but sharing its income with its employees. The gov't should probably penalize the companies that use illegal workers labor. Not that it'll be good for Haitian immigrants, but again Haiti needs to look at the problem with their system.
I’m not sure that I follow where you going but please enlighten me some more and please excuse my ignorance or my slow process of your statement.
Let’s agree to disagree for a better tomorrow for both HT and DR.
as long as they keep " investing", all will be well. people should be schooled in the difference between investment and speculation.
3- Trujillo may have been a monster, but it is also true that, without the structures tha he set on foot, the dominican state and its relatively well-off economic status (at least well-off if one would compare it with the one of Haiti) would be nonexistent, and perhaps the DR would be facing the same economic straits that its neighbour is currently facing. One have to remember that the disorder of provincial caudillismo and the corruption of the Vazquez administration were the things that made Trujillo's rise to power a possibility. I know that to ask of you (or any haitian, on that account) for an impartial evaluation of Trujillo's dictatorship is an impossibility, is not the less true that dominicans like me, while condemning the many crimes committed by him and his accomplices, can not fail to recognize that, without the hiatus of order that his dictatorship represented, the DR of today would be no better than Afghanistan, in the sense that it (cont..)
Lord 1804
Kisa wap pale la. Are you sure you know anything about Haiti? There are alot of foreign investors in Haiti now despite the MINUSTAH's presence. Haitians abroad do travel to haiti very often and flights haven't decrease despite the problems. Haiti needs to adjust to a democratic society and overcome corruption & she'll be just fine..Piga ou pale tin tin la pliz..wap fè nou yont. Please inform yourself about Haiti..All due respect a fellow compatriot. Lakay se lakay..ok piti
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If there were any truth in this accusation, Cuba would have the AIDS problems of the USA or DR.
UN researchers consistently find that the rate of AIDS in Cuba is the lowest in the western hemisphere, including the US and Canada.
The bourgeois propaganda that tries to belittle Cuba extraordinary accomplishments in health care spreads and promotes the rubbish about "sex tourism" in Cuba.
Of course, there are whores in Cuba. but the whores in Cuba don't reflect an exploitative policy of the proletarian state. The Cuban whores are individuals who pursue the life of a lumpen in opposition to the policy of the state.
In USA, over a million children live off the streets, many of whom are whores. The state doesn't mind in the least.
In DR, the lure of child prostitutes in a key factor behind 3,000,000 foreigners who visit every year, the highest number of tourists in the Caribbean.
I don’t take it at all as a disrespect young brother but we need more investor, more tourism and I don’t mean just Haitian.
Mwen remain Ayiti tancou ciro miel never mean any disrespect but read the comment again to see what I meant.
What else is there beside the Balance Sheet, Cash flow is the most important thing in any investment. Since you mention Balance Sheet I guest you might know how a thing or two . If your expense exceeding your revenue that’s equal to a net lose, so why would Codetel make it easy for Digicel to inter the market?
I disagree with this assesment completely. Its as if to say that the Dominican people could not have acheived advances as a society without the spectre of dictatorship, which is nonsense. It's precisely that kind of thinking that keeps people looking out for the next "strong man" to resolve their problems for them. Trujillo's legacy is that of blood and corruption. Maybe not today but i intend to start a forum here so that we may discuss Trujillo's regime in depth so as to dispell many of the myths that have been perpetuated with regards to said regime and the supposed "benefits" it brought the Dominican people.
Dred,
Let’s stay within the scope of your question and your question had nothing do with business management. I agree with you if a business is not managed correctly it will be in the red. We were not discussing the fundamental of a successful business but your point is taken.
Extort heavy monetary sums?!? At the time of Trujillo's death his fortune was valued at somewhere in the neighborhood of 800, 000, 000 1961 US dollars (Some reports dating from the time placed him as one of the wealthiest individuals on the PLANET). That would be billions of dollars in today's money. Not bad for someone who grew up on the dusty streets of San Cristobal. I don't think Arias ever wielded either enough influence or power to gather for himself the tidy sum Trujillo managed to procure from the Dominican people. A few superficial signs of modernity stemming from his regime and all of a sudden the man should be canonized! The man was a theif, a murderer, and a degenerate.