Written by: Lautaro, 3 Mar 2008 8:58 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
As always, the authorities insist in using the policy of the ostrich: to shut their eyes, mouth and ears about the situation surrounding us in order for them not to do something about it. In the meanwhile, the local aristocrats that are employing the inmigrants are only getting richer and richer exploiting the undocumented status of the latter, maintining the dominican salary frozen as a result of the overabundance of cheap labour, which in turn is the main reason that push the common citizen (which is forced out of the market for his/her unwillingness "to slave" him/herself to the existing, meagre salaries) to brave the seas in order to escape their situation. In short, we live on a feudal state which has nothing to envy the european states of the middle ages or the former sugar colonies of the Caribbean. With the added benefit to the current "lords" that, unlike the colonial caribbean slavocrats, they don't have to spend a single penny in the sustenance of their "slaves".
Written by: Escott, 3 Mar 2008 11:36 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
If you really believe this crap I have a bridge to sell you.
Written by: BLANCO, 3 Mar 2008 12:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
the two promoters of this discrimination charge are 1. from africa 2. a black anmerican remale.
Why they have elected to spew their vengeance on this country I don't know, however, these two have been at it a long time now and deserve to be put to pasture. they should be looking a racism in their own respective countries. it is necessary to look at something deeper.. there are forces out there that wish to bestow the problems of haiti on the rd. it has been tried manay times in the past but like stink weed keeps coming to the surface for another peek so se who will take the bait. There is a solution to the situation in haiti but no one has the intestinal fortitude to do it
Written by: zak325, 3 Mar 2008 12:48 PM
From: United States
The JCE and other governmental institutions should think twice before issuing such statements. They should remember that there are tens of thousands of Dominican who are undocumented living in the U.S., Spain and other nations, in most cases they are afforded the same basic rights as the citizens of those countries. While racisim on an individual level cannot be regulated, it should not be encouraged by descrimination at the institutional level.
Written by: Belial, 3 Mar 2008 1:17 PM
From: United States, Texas
The US embassy in Santo Domingo says that many of the "better" ... meaning filthy, slimy bourgeois ... niteclubs do not admit blacks, including US diplomats and citizens assigned to the US embassy.
If this is the way that the certain filthy elements of the DR bourgeoisie treats black US diplomats based on race, then one easily imagines how racist elements of the DR bourgeosie humiliate millions of black Dominicans [who are much more than the 10% of the DR population often claimed using a loose definition of "black"], Haitians and other Caribbeans, and Africans.
It's unjust that black Dominicans, Haitians and other Caribbeans, black Pacific peoples and Africans become the victims of filthy, rotten, and animalistic elements of the Dominican bourgeoisie, simply because these animalistic elements suffer from inferiority feelings when they compared themselves to great racists, the US imperialists, the example which the DR bourgeoisie apes.
From: United States, Killeen, TX - Home of the 1st Cavalry
Belial
You must have 'overdosed' on your HATE PILLS this morning.
Be careful of that, old son. it can get you into trouble and ruin your health.
TB
Written by: Belial, 3 Mar 2008 2:19 PM
From: United States, Texas
Like in the USA, the competition for jobs between the illegal immigrants and domestic workers seems to be the most salient effect of the problem, but not the source or cause. The cause appears ... in both the USA and DR ... to be the drive of the respective ruling bourgeois classes for higher rates of profit by the ever increasing and savage exploitation of cheap imported foreign labor, stripped of all legal and moral rights.
Neither the mass of the US nor of the DR workers see the back-stabbing and two-timing role of the US and DR bourgeois ruling classes, respectively, as central to the problem.
Illegal immigration is a club in the hands of the ruling bourgeoisie against the domestic proletariat which the bourgeois also exploits and oppresses. The ruling bourgeois uses the immigrants to hold down the domestic workers and uses the domestic workers to hold down the immigrants. And the profits pour in.
The domestic workers should turn again against the bourgeosie.
Written by: Belial, 3 Mar 2008 2:25 PM
From: United States, Texas
Illegal immigration from Haiti has increased. Most Haitian immigrants arrive in the DR illegally, and work at low-paying, unskilled labor jobs, including construction work, household cleaning, and on sugar plantations. They compete in the labor market against Dominican workers, especially black Dominicans who are often more vociferous the "white" or caucasianated Dominicans. Current estimates put the Haitian-born population in the DR as high as 1 million, about 10% of the DR population.
Written by: Belial, 3 Mar 2008 2:30 PM
From: United States, Texas
Working conditions on sugar plantations have caused controversy, including assertions that conditions of slavery exist on the plantations. Exploitation of Haitians immigrants in the DR is the subject of the 2007 political documentary narrated by Paul Newman, "The Price of Sugar."
The film "The Price of Sugar" is the object of a vicious and lying campaign by reactionary sectors of the DR bourgeoisie and their US imperialist allies.
Some Dominican officials and personalities deny accusations of slavery. However, the DR Pres. Leonel Fernández stated publicly during a seminar on immigration policy in 2005 that collective expulsions of Haitians were carried out "in an abusive and inhuman way."
Plus, it's unclear to what extent, if any, Leonel lobbied against the film "The Price of Sugar," killing its shot at an Oscar award.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
There is a hidden agenda between (Haiti, France, Canada and the US) so Dominican Republic assume all haiti problems.
"Enough is enough"
No more lies and non sense agenda...........
Written by: lcabrera, 3 Mar 2008 3:31 PM
From: United States
What a shame! God bless Haitians.
Written by: Belial, 3 Mar 2008 6:07 PM
From: United States, Texas
"describing the non-registry of Haitian children born in the country as racism is a lie ..."
0000
This is likely false, but it shouldn't be dismissed summarily because "non-registry of Haitian children" in the DR could reflect discrimination based on national origin more than or rather than race, especially in countries with similar racial compositions like Haiti and DR.
Clearly, the DR bourgeoisie and foreign "investors' " appetite for highest capitalist rate of profit is the motive force fueling the illegal immigration, it is simply more profitable for DR and foreign capitalists to exploit defendless Haitian labor rather than Dominicans in many industries.
Non-registry helps draw more "sex" tourists ... 3 M in toto ... to the DR than any other country in Caribbean.
So, many critics of the illegal immigration, manipulated by the false propaganda of the bourgeois media, blame race and national origin rather than the incurable rottenness of the capitalist system.
Written by: Belial, 3 Mar 2008 6:25 PM
From: United States, Texas
The Cuban-American bourgeoisie is smuggling children into Miami at a record rate from all over Latin America to compete with the DR's booming tourist industry.
The four billionaires of Cuban origin, including G. Cisneros. all of whom maintain huge multi-million dollar estates on the DR south coast near La Romana are all involved in big-money human smuggling operations. But they are well-connected with the ruling GOP regime in the USA.
In human smuggling business, Central American children ... who are often "legally" adopted by US and Canadian degenerates ... are more popular and costly as sex slaves than Haitians.
There is, according to the US State Department 2007 report on human smuggling, a large sector of DR citizens ... males, females. and, of course, children involved ... in the industry of sex exploitation and forced labor.
See also: O'Connell Davidson, Julia (December 1995). Child Prostitution and Sex Tourism - Dominican Republic. ECPAT. Retrieved on 2007-06-07.
From: Haiti
Everything is a conspiracy to you people. The world is always plotting to stigmatize the DR's reputation. Its not as if these claims can't be substantiated.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
I would like one of you Dominicans to tell me that Haitians are not discriminated and vilified in the DR...But are treated with respect and dignity.
Written by: Lautaro, 3 Mar 2008 10:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well, for one thing, I could tell you that at least the ones who study on our universities are treated with respect and dignity, mr. jemesouviens1804. However, even though I can´t vouch for the treatment that they are getting on the other sectors of the economy, I can safely assure you that the ones which live and work on my neighborhood (near the Churchill avenue) get the same treatment that any common dominican would get from his fellows. Heck, the haitians who are studying on the universities in Santiago have even got their own field to play soccer on the weekends from the municipality.
From: United States
Dominican racism against Haitians a lie, Electoral court chief says
0000
DR electoral chief, does not have morality even to deny he was born with a tail in his behind !!!!
Its his responsability to enforce "Jus Sollis"
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 8:07 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Here's a situation the UN should be devoting their time to: A young woman who began her NGO career to end poverty in Cite Soleil shakes her head in disbelief as she watches throngs wash their clothes and bathe next to Bigio's glistening plant. There are security towers protecting every corner of the property with armed guards while UN forces in large armored personnel vehicles patrol the outer perimeter. She asks not to be identified and comments, "I bought into the development model the UN used to encourage us to come here and invest in Cite Soleil. The US government funds our organization through USAID and I came here to make a difference in these people’s lives. I am now faced with the reality of a humanitarian crisis we cannot be expected to solve. The UN's main thrust seems to be security at any cost. This can only result in the loss of another generation of Haitians in this community being lost to poverty and misery. I am ready to quit unless something changes soon." (cont..)
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 8:08 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont..) In another corner of this community and trying not to draw attention amidst the children with bloated bellies and flow of the poverty, is a representative of Aristide's Lavalas movement. Mr. Jean- Marie Samedi was brutally beaten and tortured after Aristide's ouster in 2004. He is the leader of a movement called the Base of Lavalas Reflection and gave another view to the already disfigured politics of suffering in this community.
Mr. Samedi commented, "At least the people they called bandits and gangsters shared what they had with the community when they were here. People could eat. They had food and had running water. They didn't have to eat dirt to live or have to wash their clothes and their bodies in ditches of dirty running water."
Several children run by with almost blondish hair, a clear sign of malnutrition amongst blacks, to punctuate Mr. Samedi's point. (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 8:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) He continued, "They told us that everything would change after they got rid of the bandits and yet people cannot feed their children. You see them forced to wash in this dirty water. What did the promise of the Bush administration and the UN really mean to the people of Cite Soleil? They have merely continued politics as usual in Haiti. The rich get richer while the majorities are forced to continue to suffer in poverty. I challenge anyone to show me the difference they have made for the majority of the poor in Haiti." Growing visibly angry and bitter Mr. Samedi concluded, "The UN came in here and slaughtered residents who supported Lavalas on July 6, 2005 and again on December 22, 2006. And for what have to ask? So that Bigio and the Haitian Chamber of Commerce could force us back into accepting this level of poverty? Nothing has changed for the poor in Haiti."
Source:
http://www.nathanielturner.com/haitiansforcedtoeatdirt.htmFrom: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Once again "Haitians" crying like babies what They can't never defend on their own land..
Is easy pointing at DR for "Haiti's hell living standards"
I will never believe in Haitians since They are so full of animosity against Dominican Republic.
That's why You will never have a stable, organized and fit country.
Dominican and Haitian constitutions state very "CLEAR" who is its citizen and who's not
also the JCE already corrected this issue with the "pink book" therefore this is my point on calling "Hatians" STUBBORN
Since You trying to prove a pointless issue or case but "Good luck" with your common sense
"IF you ever have one"
From: Haiti
Lautaro,
I agree that haitians are treated with dignity and respect that are from middle class & attend the universities. One can go to the hospitals and see many haitian doctors & other sectors with haitian businesses. Churchill Avenue obviously means that one has money & come from a better economic background than the mass. Unfortunately, the majority of haitians are illegal and face discrimination& exploited by their employers(not all of the time) but still co-exist with the average dominicans in the barrios. This one is a toughy. I prefer not to bash the DR and think positive despite the descrepancies. One thing is we need to improve relations and intercultural programs. If one goes to Petion Ville La Esquina where many dominicans that live in Haiti are enjoying themselves..Just like the soccer field at PUCMM in Santiago by haitians..hey you guys can teach us baseball..After going to several games I appreciate more. Love Peace & Harmony for haitians & dominicans
Written by: BLANCO, 4 Mar 2008 12:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic
JR You are right about the agenda, but take france out of the equation for the moment... the problems in haiti are western hemisphere problems which have been alllowed to seath over many years. i again say the problem can be addressed if the western hemisphere gets gets the cajones to solve it......it will take two generations
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 12:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
And you could teach us soccer, mr. jabao. After all, I'm tired of seeing the jamaicans and trinidarians mop the floor with us on every single game of the classifications for the World Cup. LOL
From: Haiti
Señor Lautaro,
It would be a pleasure since we haitians are fanatics about soccer as much as dominicans about baseball. I think every haitian comes out of the womb kicking a soccer ball. One can go to PUCMM,INTEC,UNIBE to see how many haitians are attending school there out of there own expense. Why can't our people just get along for the betterment of the two countries and stop with the hatred among two brother nations. I remember my first baseball game. I didn't have know idea about the game. I thought dominicans were crazy..lol..Hey, now Im a fan..
From: Haiti
Viva futbol & beisbol! LOL...In my mind Haiti represents Hispaniola in international soccer matches while the DR represents Hispaniola in its international baseball matchups. Talk about sports diplomacy...LOL.
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 3:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Back to the topic at hand, if the English, Scottish and Welsh, which had a more bloody history between them, could establish a settlement between them. Why then the DR and Haiti can't seem to find grounds for a common solution?
From: Haiti
The cultural differences which have been highly reinforced by both countries' past leaders and the strain the poor of both countries have endured because of social ills which lead to scapegoats and bias. And because of people such as Perception and Rubirosa..LOL. People point out differences not similarities (much more) and that is what I believe has been keeping both countries back in terms of brotherly relations.
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 4:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
As always, you're on target mr. Shin. (Specially with dumb and dumber...) LOL
From: Haiti
Shin, great points..Where are they? LOL. The most important thing is not to take people that think like this seriously.
From: United States
The officials were responding to a United Nations report, released in Switzerland, which accuses the Dominican government, the Catholic Church, the JCE, political parties and the judiciary of racism, xenophobia and intolerance against undocumented Haitians, black Dominicans and the Dominicans of Haitian descent.
0000
The above statement, Who would say this is not true !!!!!!!!
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 9:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
That statement crumbles even were we to take only the PRD on the political front and the dominican universities (and lately, primary and secondary schools) as proof of our openness, mr. unperceptive.
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 9:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Tell me, unperceptive, if the PRD were to be as antihaitian as you paint the rest of the dominican establishment, would they have allowed José Francisco Peña Gomez, who was of haitian descent, to attain the leadership of that party, a party with the most partisans on the national scene? or to have currently on its ranks many political chiefs with the same origin that he had?
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Mar 2008 10:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Seriously man, how the heck do you plan to attain your agenda if you're constantly bashing one of the countries necessary to reach the union that you are so fervently desiring, alienating that country's nationals with your inmature remarks?
Written by: amoree, 4 Mar 2008 11:34 PM
From: United States
JRRubirosa,
I watch you continually whine about the same thing. It's sickening. Do you even know your own history? Everybody isn't whining about the DR. I wonder how you would feel if some Puerto Ricans told you to keep your Dominicans under control and stay out of Puerto Rico. People who want to survive will go to any means to do so. You have the kind of hatred that spreads like a bacteria in a vein and needs to be eliminated. DR history isn't not that pretty either. It's so irritatiing to see people that don't understand the closest country to Haiti is going to have illegal issues. Look at the history between the two. As long as you share the same island, you will always be connected one way or another. You're no different than the Americans complaining about all the Mexicans when they live right up the road. Get over it please. Try to make peace with it.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Amoree: Please be realistic and wake up from Your BS political agenda................
Haitians are abusing Dominican Republic and this have to stop........
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 9:38 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
She's perfectly entitled to criticize your redneck attitude, mr. Rubirosa, due to the fact that your constant bashing of haitians is a glaring show of hipocricy from your part, considering that you're denying others the right that you have been enjoying yourself, that is, the right to migrate to a foreign country in order to search for better means of life, and from her own country, no less. If the local aristocracy were not be reaping astounding profits from the cheap labour afforded by the haitian inmigrants as they're doing right now, do you think that they would have allowed the current inmigration trend to continue?
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Lautaro: There is so much constructive, positive and proactive talk that Haitians could talk about it like doing better things on Haiti but never criminalizing Dominican Republic for everything.
Haitians don't want to be accountable for their own actions and to me this is (mediocre and negative).
Truth hurts when human beings don't have The right approach to some circumstances (this apply to Haitians)
I respect Your points of view but I could care less about sensitivity for people like You and everybody else.
I'm pro-Dominican not Pro-haitian and my points of view are base on the same abuse and bashing of Haitians towards DR, already ask few haitians but they don't reply to my questions (this is being mediocre)
JCE already create the pink book and Dominican and Haitian Constitution states clear who is citizen at birth.
Question for You Lautaro and all your dear brothers??
Why promoting or fighting for something that is already stablished by law?? Birthright
From: Haiti
Lautaro, why bother with this character. It is obvious that he has been drinking too much Brugal in Nueva Yol. He was entertaining at one point just for laughs but it is obvious he doesn't have the brain capacity to reason and discuss his rhetorics. How are haitians abusing the Dominican Rep? Lautaro, you and I know that JR can't even get into the social clubs in his own society and really doesn't matter.
From: Haiti
I was giving our readers a couple of days but I'll have to be the one with breaking news again. J.S.R have stated publicly that DR & Haiti will unite as federal state for the benefit of two nations economically confront globalization. He considers himself a Quisqueyano which comprise the two nations of Hispaniola. A projection is in 10 yrs to implement this unification of quisqueyans. So JR, might as well get in front of the subway train. Dominican authorities that have the power are going to unite the country and your platano con salami rhetorics cant do anything to stop this. Have the person who wrote for you in spanish read the article for you. Haitians and Dominicans will protest but al fin y al cabo they can't do anything to stop the unifying of the two nations. Oh boy this thread is going to get so many hits. Lautaro, have you heard about this?
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 11:22 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes, it appeared on the Caribe newspaper a couple of days ago. Like you, I was saving time before dropping the A-bomb. Needless to say, the right-wingers weren't all too pleased about the announcement. Anyway, it'll be a prudent thing to secure the financial and logistic aid of the international community before embarking on a project as big and complicated as that, as well as making a lot of binational meetings in order to arrange details.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
JabaoHaitian: Question please????
Hopefully you are the smartest Haitian
Why if Junta Central Electoral, Haitian constitution and Dominican Constitution states very clear who Is who when born.
Why haitians have a hidden agenda (with UN) backing haiti??
So why You and Your people want To force Dominican Constitution to meet your demands and needs???
You are so smart and intelligent and along with all Haitians You all have PHD's and all kinds of degrees (Speak 5 languages)
We "Dominicans" are so dumb and only speak 1 language.
Wait for your answer regarding constitution for both countries "Mr Genius"
From: Haiti
JR, how are you my brother? I will do you the service of answering your question but remember these are the views of JabaoHaitian a mere citizen and not a PHD. JCE, have spoken and will not allow illegal haitians dominican national. IMO, I have to oblige by the decision of the dominican republic. and respect the judgement. Illegal haitians have to sign the pink book. Now let's look at the future where these haitians that speak only spanish in most cases and live like any regular dominican want to acquire higher education to contribute back to their beloved Dominican Republic. These people will be marginalized and there descendants as well. It would create a subgroup that are dominicans in every way accept on paper. Sure deport them to haiti where they will not know the language nor have any culture understanding which is basically what we say in spanish "tapar el sol con el dedo" solution. These dominicans haitian descent will be abuse because they are non existant by law.
From: Haiti
cont. and will be considered illegal dominicans. Hey, JCE have spoken and fine. Besides, I dont think haitians are jumping to be dominicans since they are still stuck on the island rather to become part of the dominican society so they can contribute to it. Do you know how many haitian of dominican descent that are part of the haitian society and have been elected? Dominican have decided a quicker fixer solution..fine. Although, it will be a disaster in the future and probably cause more problems. Now does this law apply to american european canadians that are illegal in the DR? We all know the answer to this but hey such is life and more brugal and platanos con salami ideas will make the people forget about their plight. Question do you consider a haitian born in the dominican republic with legal parents dominican. Pena Gomez was he less dominican? I know many very smart dominicans that speak several languages and have PHDs. Stop limiting the dominican people.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, his speech was at the UN on the 23 Feb. A little late on the dominican media como siempre. I think the anti-haitians are misinterpreting him. He didn't say that the two countries one be one and indivisible rather two federal states preserving and respecting the identity of both nations. I think his ten year projection is very near but a reality if the two nations want to be competitive globally. Indeed alot of issues need to be sorted out. On the haitian media it hasn't caused much noise. Many haitians havent even taken his prediction seriously unlike the right wingers in the DR which can use this to damage the frail relationship although the elite dominicans know that this is the only way to compete in a global economy. This will be very interesting to hear both sides.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 12:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The media delay on this news isn't a surprising thing, considering the high level of censorship still pervading the media on the DR, mr. Jabao. When you talk about the haitians of dominican descent, the one that comes foremost in my mind is the famous guerrilla fighter called Charlemagne Peralte, who, along with his cacos, fought ferociously against the first American Intervention on Haiti (1915-1934). Needless to say that he would be caught, brutally tortured and executed by the marines. The failure of his movement would be the start of the dispossession of the haitian masses of their plots of land by the agrarian multinationals and their marine overseers.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 12:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) what is worse, the marines assigned with the occupation and its dirty work would be in their majority of southern extraction, which bore a great hatred for the black race and were still smarting by the wounds of the American Civil War and the ensuing Reconstruction. When one of them was asked about what he thought of the haitian people, that guy would exclaim: Imagine! N****ers Speaking French!!!”
Written by: Belial, 5 Mar 2008 1:00 PM
From: United States, Texas
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={D1599672-8CFE-46BF-82C6-7A45816A4B5C})&language=EN
Buenos Aires, Mar 5 (Prensa Latina) President Cristina Fernandez will visit Argentinean troops deployed in Haiti with the UN Stabilisation Mission (MINUSTAH), official sources confirmed.
Fernandez will travel to Venezuela on Wednesday to meet his counterpart Hugo Chavez in order to sign commercial, energetic, cultural and agricultural agreements.
Tomorrow, she will travel to Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, to attend the 20th Summit of Rio Group.
She will later pay her first visit to the Argentinean troops of the MINUSTAH, a peacekeeping mission established by the UN Security Council on 2004.
Argentina keeps 562 soldiers, four Police officers and a hospital in Haiti, as part of MINUSTAH, which has 9,500 soldiers and policemen from over 40 countries.
Argentinean soldiers are developing cooperation programs in Port of Prince, aimed at supporting social plans.
From: United States, New York City
"the local aristocrats that are employing the inmigrants are only getting richer and richer exploiting the undocumented status of the latter"
I agree with most of your assesment in your first post on this thread Lautaro, but a question arises from your comment. How "local" are the "arisctocrats" that control the sugar industry? The two biggest landowning sugar producers in DR are the Fanjuls, who are by no means dominican (they're cubans who's fortune and reputation for exploitation precede Castro), and the Vicinis, a family that has never renounced its Italian citizenship even after several generations in dr and who so identified with Italy that the allies decided to include them in a list of Italians who should be blacklisted because of their alleged ties to italian fascism predating the second world war (and this was after the family produced a dominican president). cont'd
From: United States, New York City
(from above)
As such one can conclude that these families have no true allegiance to the dominican state or its people. Maybe they treat the haitians like crap because they view the host society were they do their business as crap, just a venue to perpetuate their fortunes, denizens be damned and so too be damned the image projected by the practices of these two families as long as the weight falls upon dominican society and not their businesses in particular. Just food for thought.
Written by: Belial, 5 Mar 2008 1:06 PM
From: United States, Texas
"How "local" are the "arisctocrats" that control the sugar industry? The two biggest landowning sugar producers in DR are the Fanjuls, who are by no means dominican (they're cubans who's fortune and reputation for exploitation precede Castro),"
0000
This is a funny kind of "local" if you ask me.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 1:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I wasn't only referring to the sugar barons, cibaeño, but I was also referring to the construction consortiums (which employ haitian workers in a 95%, starting with the Santo Domingo Metro) and the majority of landowners with coffee, cacao, rice and tobacco plantations, and, as of late, some touristic consortiums as tour guides and interpreters. Those people are in my opinion the local aristocracy (some haitian friends would go as far as calling them "the new colonists").
From: United States, New York City
Lauturo, I wasn't attempting to take anything away from your analysis or to expose some supposed lack of knowledge, I just wanted to use your comment as a jumping point for the point I wanted to make. With that said, what do you think of my take on the sugar interests?
Written by: Belial, 5 Mar 2008 1:19 PM
From: United States, Texas
In some circles, the "aristocracy," especially if it is "local," sounds more polite, more refined and cultured than "filthy, rotten, and stinking bourgeoisie," which is conceptually exquisite.
Even though terminology leaves something to be desired, I agree with the underlying point that the inapt terms express.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 1:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I think that their employing practices should be curtailed, cibaeño. After all, sugar do not represent a big chunk of the GDP anymore, as it did on the 60's and 70's. Also, they should be forced to better the living conditions on the bateyes and mechanize their production process. I'm tired and drained of having to read and enlighten people about these slavery accusations, the only thing that these have accomplished so far is to be used as weapons by the flag-wavers of the establishment in order to raise the animosity between both nations.
From: United States, New York City
"Also, they should be forced to better the living conditions on the bateyes and mechanize their production process."
Exactly. The Fanjuls mechanized all their sugar acreage in Florida precisely because locals were getting fed up from all the complaints of exploitation that were being put out by the west indians the Fanjuls used to bring in to do seasonal sugar cutting work there(I suggest readers of DT do some research into the Fanjuls and their exploitative practices). Their lawyers knew that the sun had set on their exploitation of human labor within the US' borders and advised them to mechanize, which they promptly did. The Fanjuls know that they can get away with all types of crap in DR and as such it'll take a long time, if ever, for them to modernize their sugar operations in DR. Besides, its the dominican people who are catching the heat for the business practices of these individuals (I wanted to call them something else but I'll be civil) so why should they care anyway.
Written by: Belial, 5 Mar 2008 1:36 PM
From: United States, Texas
" I'm tired and drained of having to read and enlighten people about the futility of these slavery accusations."
0000
There is nothing wrong with those slavery accusations. You shouldn't wear yourself out enlightning others about the accusations. Rather wear yourself out enlightening yourself.
The more important source on the accusations is the Dominican section of the US State Department 2007 Report on Human Trafficking.
The Report doesn't accuse all Haitians or all Dominicans in the DR of being slaves or persons who perform "forced labor."
The Report only says that "significant numbers" of Hiatians and Dominicans in the DR perform forced labor which many consider slavery, although some Dominicans evidently don't consider forced labor to be slavery.
The Report doesn't say how many specifically compose "significant numbers."
Many say the Report says all or most Haitians in DR are slaves or all or most Dominicans in DR are slaves.
This is an distortion.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Mar 2008 1:37 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
If the barons refuse to comply, then they should be asked politely (or not so politely) to leave the island once and for all, and in the process, declare them "persona non grata" and seize their assets. It may smack of socialism, but , as I see things, it's the only way to force these people to think more rationally.
From: United States, New York City
At the very least the dominican people should demand, through legislation and then enforcement, that whomever does business within the dominican state should meet certain requirements when it comes to the working conditions of any individuals they may contract (regardless of their nationality) while conducting said business there. But all these ideas are passing fancies. The Fanjuls can arguably be considered among the owners of the Dominican Republic. I can only imagine as to what type of people they have in their pockets among the politicians and the influential in DR. These are individuals (the Fanjuls) who are one phone call away from the US president's ear. They're very formidable indeed and in order for the Dominican sugar industry to be reformed it has to start with them, the biggest holders of sugar lands in DR by far.
From: Haiti
Cibaeno, I think you've made some excellent points regarding the foreignors that claim dominican national to further their business ventures. FYI, it's the same thing in Haiti where the big enterprises are owned by haitians of either italian,arab,german descent which work hand in hand with the dominican of foreign descent that exploit the mass. As Lautaro, have mentioned their are dominican locals and haitians locals exploiting the marginalized people. The biggest gimmick is that they have dominicans(local) think they are better than haitians who are in their psyche "prietos" and lesser. In there eyes dominicans are lazy uneducated people that don't want to tilt the soil, dominican campesinos have become urbanized and won't do such rigorous work. Funny thing is they are doing the same thing in Puerto Rico/US mean while many illegal haitians do the job better with less callout for much cheaper. If one takes off the nationalistic cape it is easy to see how the haitian & dominican
From: Haiti
continued..natives have been used as mere pawns to serve the interest of a minority of dominican/haitian elites and super elites that are foreignors that hold no allegiance to either nation. Lautaro, yes the haitian of dominican descent Charlemagne Peralte was a warrior but decimated by the US marines which re-inforced the divided class structure based on color in Haiti as well as DR. There so many haitians of dominican descent and dominicans of haitian descent that have fought hard on both sides respectively but we tend to think we are from two different ends of the world. I suggest for dominicans and haitians to take a look in mirror, if they see the truth they will break it and cry their hearts out for being so naive. Lautaro, you are on another level and have deciphered the two nations and obviously just accept it while the majority pound their chest of national pride dying of hunger while the elite foreignors laugh all the way to the bank off the natives back.
From: Haiti
Frankly the dominicans nor haitains are ready to face reality. I think the international community should just pull out all of the archive records to demonstrate how haitians & dominicans have been stringed along for centuries. The word haitian have been use in a condescending way in the dominican society for a purpose. As the NGO's claiming slavery in the DR it is another tool to divide the haitian & dominican community even more. Human rights have been violated and the average poor dominican haven't directly exploited the poor haitian but are the poster boy of this propaganda. I a haitian have never seen slavery practice by dominicans. If we're talking about civil rights violations then that's another story but we need to take consideration the civil rights of dominicans that are constantly violated as well. Reality both are at the end of the stick pushing the lesser down to feel a brief comfort of every day woes.
From: Haiti
Question for all the dominicans that oppose the haitians in the DR. Do you think the metro would have been built as fast if haitian workers were not there to do the hard labor for such a low pay (not slavery). One party is happy to get paid and the other happy to build his dream...Santo domingo ya esta civilizado tenemos un tren mientras tanto la gente sigue muriendo de hambre y falta educación. Al fin y al cabo Fernandez have hushed the children with a new tonka toy. Hay una cosa que se llama prioridad. Bueno, asi es la vida. He has given the people want they want more. What a genious Mr. Presidente. You have to give it to him.. A day with cheap haitian labor the metro extension will cease or any other major construction to develop the country.
From: United States, New York City
It's all a divide and conquer tactic, Jabao. The dominicans look down at their nose at the haitians, the haitians glaze angrily back, but yet no one looks to see what role The Fanjuls and others like them play in this drama. I'll tell you what role they are playing: They're laughing at both our peoples while on the way to the bank. I'm content to know that at least on some level a dominican and a haitian can get together and recognize a common enemy. These sugar barons are the ones that are giving the Dominican Republic its ill deserved reputation abroad with respect to the treatment of haitians. It's time for the dominican people to demand accountability from those who engage in exploitative business practices in dominican society.
From: Haiti
Cibaeno, dividir para rienar ha sido y todavía es una viaja táctica de control de los pueblos(Haití/RD). The propaganda and stereotypes of both nations have and will remain to cloud the minds of both nations while the higher ranking of the chess board reap the benefits. I care about the RD just as much as I care about Haiti. If Dominicans on a whole stop viewing Haitians as ennemies and vice versa certain social issues would be resolved. It isn't the first nor the last time a haitian and a dominican shall agree on things. It shouldn't surprise you at all since haitians have been doing business deals for centuries. The only people that usually are at each other throats are the marginalize groups due to fustration and temporary satisfaction of feeling above someone. Besides, from the looks of things haitians & dominicans get along well until the scapegoat card is played out. Doesn't it feel good to agree we share the same island and must cooperate for the best of both people.
From: United States, New York City
"If Dominicans on a whole stop viewing Haitians as ennemies and vice versa certain social issues would be resolved."
I definitely agree with the gyst of what you're saying and I'd like to add that it is necessary to identify who the true enemies of both peoples are in order to move forward. Many would argue that enterprises such as the Fanjuls provide much needed investment capital for DR. I would counter that investments that result in near slavery conditions for many and in the tarnishing of the image of the dominican people abroad are investments that should not be welcomed or tolerated.
From: United States
I know many foreigners residing at DR illegally (Colombians, Guatemalans, Panamanians, Mexicans, Chinese etc) without a legal residency and their born child are expedited DR citizenships.
As long as they don’t belong to Haiti !!!!!
Written by: Belial, 5 Mar 2008 6:46 PM
From: United States, Texas
know many foreigners residing at DR illegally (Colombians, Guatemalans, Panamanians, Mexicans, Chinese etc) without a legal residency and their born child are expedited DR citizenships.
As long as they don’t belong to Haiti !!!!!
oooo
John Stuart Mill's method of difference
The 2 possible causes for denial of citizenship to the kids, as suggested by Perception's data, is EITHER (1) illegal status of parents OR (2) Haitian descent.
Six instances to work with -- the Haitians, Colombians, Guatemalans, Panamanians, Mexicans, Chinese.
Haitian descent is the only one of the 2 possible causes in the 6 instances that is always present when a denial occurs and always absent when a denial does not occur.
In 5 of the 6 instances, illegality is present when a denial does not occur. Plus, illegality is absent in the Haitian instance when a denial occurs. So, illegality doesn't cause denials.
Leaving Haitian descent as the only possible cause.
From: United States
John Stuart Mill's
Mill's On Liberty is one of the founding texts of classical liberalism and one of the most important treatises ever written on the concept of liberty. The book explores the nature and limits of the power that can be legitimately exercised by society over the individual. One argument that Mill develops further than any previous philosopher is the harm principle. The harm principle holds that each individual has the right to act as he wants, so long as these actions do not harm others. If the action is self-regarding, that is, if it only directly affects the person undertaking the action, then society has no right to intervene, even if it feels the actor is harming himself. Mill excuses those who are "incapable of self-government" from this principle, such as young children or those living in "backward states of society". It is important to emphasize that Mill did not consider giving offense to constitute "harm"; an action could not be restricted because it cont.
From: United States
it violated the conventions or morals of a given society.
On Liberty involves an impassioned defense of free speech. Mill argues that free discourse is a necessary condition for intellectual and social progress. We can never be sure, he contends, that a silenced opinion does not contain some element of the truth. He also argues that allowing people to air false opinions is productive for two reasons. First, individuals are more likely to abandon erroneous beliefs if they are engaged in an open exchange of ideas. Second, by forcing other individuals to re-examine and re-affirm their beliefs in the process of debate, these beliefs are kept from declining into mere dogma. It is not enough for Mill that one simply has an unexamined belief that happens to be true; one must understand why the belief in question is the true one.
From: United States
DR its an example of a "backward states of society".
I will suggest the Electoral chief to go back to his text books and read a little bit more on "Jus Sollis".
I don't blame a White person been rascist, but a Negro Dominicano thats to much.!!!!
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Perception: Your ignorance and intelligence are getting mixed up like always.
What DominicanConstitution States about who is Dominican??
What Haitian constituion states about who is Haitian??
Pink book created already by the JCE, so Haitians don't make up any BS stories.
"Backward states of society" will apply "Very well" to Haiti since your country is going everyday backwards and never having a organized way of living.
"Racism is a 2 ways opinion"
Whether Your biassed thinking allows to tell right from wrong,
We do have a "white" minority in Dominican Republic so I guess Some people have a right to be racist like You mentioned.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 7:52 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
If one were to discuss backwardness, unperceptive, then one have to conclude that the US could be found guilty of the same charge, specially with its brutal and unfair policy for the island regarding the drugs traffic issue. On this very issue, your country is the one which should be the more interested in thwarting the drug lords trade routes, by asserting an increasing military presence on these. Instead of doing this, your country is currently bogged down in petty imperialistic crusades on far off regions while charging little and defenseless countries like ours with the titanic task of covering your arses on that account!!!
Is it fair for your country to demand that service from us while extorting payments of foreign debt from us, payments that demand from our countries the very funds that could be used for fighting this calamity?
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 7:55 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) I guess that, notwithstanding the distance, Teddy Roosevelt's policy of "talking softly while carrying a big stick" is still the favorite policy of the US: The policy of the big school bully with the angry club.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 8:13 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
In short, when your country abandons its jeffersonian blockade of Haiti and condomne its foreign debt, then, and only then, you'd be able to talk about us being backwards. Au revoir until then, unperceptive.
From: United Kingdom
Great comments! Mr. Lautaro(thanks for the link very informative),Mr. Jabao and Mr. Cibaeño. Just for to stimulate conversation : Mr. Jabao , How would uniting Hispaniola, help the DR and Haiti?(referring to your comments on 5 Mar 2008 11:15 AM and can you provide a link). In my opinion, Mr. Jabao; that would be ignoring Haiti’s current issues , Haiti has to concentrate all her efforts on amazing capital, to kick start economic growth and therefore raise its economic development(to then deal with the multitude of problems and open the door to foreign investment). Sorry, if this sounds a little pretentious of me, but I call for anybody that’s interested in an intelligent conversation to ignore Perception and Rubirosa.
P.S I also have found part of a Documentary on the Creole population of New Orleans on how they’re way of thinking may sound a little familiar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tfVpHYyDcYWritten by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 8:37 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
My opinion have always been that what Haiti needs the most right now is something akin to the Marshall Plan, the plan which rescued Europe and Japan from the consequences of WWII, the only difference being that, on the case of Haiti, it'll necessarily have to be more extensive, due to the environmental degradation of the country's soil and the more pressing health, educational and nutritional needs of the haitian masses. The haitians are, by nature, a very disciplined and hard working people, the only thing that they need is a clear purpose to which they could devote their seeming inexhaustible energies. In short, they need to be given the hope that their country would eventually recover by the fruits of their work, after decades of civil wars. But I guess it'll be too much to ask for the western world, after all, they haven't forgiven Haiti for depriving them of the profits that they were reaping from kings sugar and coffee (circa 1804).
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Lautaro, I laid out my analysis(opinion) on Haiti’s problems on another forum(I think it was the one Haiti‘s ecological issues which I believe u have read), the problem is that nobody cares enough to provided $$$$ and make the sacrifice ; the link you provided made me cringe to think people have to resort to such actions in the modern world is disgusting. I’m not one to kick anyone while they’re down ;but Haiti’s future lies solely within her people, and only they can remedy the situation by making the hard choices that need to be made. I know, I have been saying it for a while, but Haiti ecological situation is due to cross the threshold within the next 15 years and then they will be no return(to ecological Homeostasis). Mr. Lautaro, are you familiar with the works of Amartya Sen?
From: United Kingdom
He wrote:Poverty and Famines:An Essay on Entitlement and Deprivation in which he reasons that famines are not only due to a lack of food but in disproportions in the mechanism of the distribution of food.He also reasons that unemployment,declining wages,rising food prices are the key indicators to a major catastrophe( which match Haiti perfectly).Haitians have to put their priorities in order because I really can’t believe that Haiti has yet to institute dual citizenship for its people,and to be honest;it kind of makes me angry because if theNGO and the Haitian ex-pats spent an ounce of the energy they do in it’s public campaign against the DR they could probably achieve this goal which would truly be a step in the right direction.On another note;I would really like to calculate,the deadweight loss in both countries on a macroeconomic level but they’re way to many aggregates to compute by myself(or have access to reliable objective stats)but I bet it would be mind blowing.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 10:10 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes, I had to study them in order to obtain my degree on economics at INTEC, mr. Frank. The lack of statitiscal data is indeed a major problem that we have to tackle on the entire island, because it's a major source of annoyance for anyone trying to make econometrical work about the evolution of both countries during the XXth century.
From: United Kingdom
yes, that is a very big problem because all the so called stats are regurgitated by unscrupulous yes men that manipulate every nuck and cranny to make their position look better .
Written by: Belial, 6 Mar 2008 10:37 AM
From: United States, Texas
"Mill's On Liberty is one of the founding texts of classical liberalism and one of the most important treatises ever written on the concept of liberty. "
oooo
"On Liberty" is a masterpiece on poltics and ethics and the relation between the two. Along with The Republic, The Prince, Politics (by Aristotle), The Communist Manifesto and State and Revolution, On Liberty supplies the foundation for my political outlook.
But the Mills' work I had in mind when I critiqued your post above was "Systems of Logic," also a masterpiece in its field, in which Mills explores five methods of causal analysis, one of which is the method of difference which your post above about the denial of citizenship to kids of illegal Haitian immigrants is a pristine example of the use of this method.
From: Haiti
Mr Frank, there isn't no need to apologize for your opinions. I find it therapeutic if haitians & dominicans dialogue HONESTLY about our similarities, differences & social issues. As long as you are sincere and objective I have to respect your opinions. In regards to you question about how this will help Haiti & DR. First it isn't uniting the two countries rather two federate states with each having there own juridiction. IMO, on a marcoenomic level it would help Quisqueyans compete with central america, south america & asia. The red tape between the two neighbhouring countries is ridiculous and senseless. Do you know until recently mail between the two countries had to be routed to Miami b4 going to its destination rather then directly across the border. I dont want to get into business details too much but both countries are economically tied for years and the past 2 decades have become dependent on each other. No one wants to change DR or Haiti rather make it
From: Haiti
easier for goods and international relations. Haitians indeed have to take blame for the current situation, I admit, but there are other elements that systematically have blueprint to keep Haiti on her knees. Haitians are definitely responsable for re-building Haiti and Dominicans can do there part by investing too. Your comments give me the impression that Haiti is kilometers away and doesn't effect dominicans. This is the problem because a worse haiti means illegals crossing the border looking to find work in an already deprived country. Look at how haitians have found a way to make it in the DR despite the discrimination and civil rights violations. How come dominicans can't find a peace of the bread? The biggest mistake dominicans make is that Haitians are not important group in their country or trading partner. The ban on poultry has a wake up call for the business sector and know if they want to keep makig that money have to learn how to respect haitians and see us as
Written by: Belial, 6 Mar 2008 12:12 PM
From: United States, Texas
US imperialists are careful students of Himmler, the reactionary German killer in the 1930s and '40s.
This article shows how worthless and useless it is for developing countries to depend on their petty bourgeois intelligentsia who deep in their souls love imperialism and long to be exploited by imperialism. Substituting foreign "investors" for the migrating locals is even more useless. Developing countries must develop and nurture a revolutionary, Marxist, Leninist, and Communist intelligentsia on which the country can depend.
0000
Expert Warns against Brain Drain in Caribbean
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={A360340E-1D85-4EA6-BF95-87CDEF057BCF})&language=EN
Havana, Mar 6 (Prensa Latina) Brain drain is a serious problem in many small Caribbean countries, according to World Bank Executive Pablo Fanjzylber.
"More than 80 percent of professionals born in Haiti, Jamaica, Grenada or Guyana live abroad, mainly in the United States," he pointed out.
Con't
Written by: Belial, 6 Mar 2008 12:15 PM
From: United States, Texas
"Expert Warns against Brain Drain in Caribbean"
RESUMED
A report presented by Fanjzylber at the Tenth International Meeting on Globalization and Development Problems notes that 30 percent of the labor force from the Caribbean Islands had migrated in 2000, in contrast to statistics from non-Caribbean nations.
In that regard, he added that 10 percent of university graduates migrate from South America, and 15-20 percent from Mexico and Central America.
He pointed out that the small Caribbean islands clearly top the list of professionals who migrate to developed countries.
However, Fanjzylber admitted that Mexico and Central America tend to lead the ranking of migrants in absolute terms.
The Havana meeting is being attended by 1,195 delegates from 55 countries and 24 regional and international organizations.
According to sources from the Organizing Committee, the most represented countries are Mexico, Argentina, Ecuador, Guatemala and Venezuela and Cuba
From: Haiti
cont. equals. Imagine if Haiti bans other products from crossing the border or even out illegal haitians. I guarantee you the DR would come to a total freeze and all the projects and constructions would be vacant mean while average dominicans would still be complaining that there isn't work. I have personal experience with dominican employees and the will make up the most ridiculous story to get paid and work as less as possible. Calm down, I am generalizing and can also attest to many hard work dominicans buscando un chelito. Haiti has foreign investors but many dont pay taxes and exploit the mass and cross over the border to do the same thing with more restrictions on exploitation. Look at the DR-CAFTA it is a failure and the typical campesino's products are bypass by foreign good that are cheaper. And you know how dominicans love anythign foreign..es lo mejor!!. If dominicans & haitians become a block on the economic level we can have more negotiating advantage.
From: Haiti
Haitians don't want to take over Dominicans it's a conspiracy theory to keep the average dominican in check and satisfied with the poverty. As long Im not haitian is the motto but fijate both live in the same barrio. While the haitian gets up to go to work in whatever the dominican wakes up and go sit at the colmado. Ok generalizing again. Now lets go to the people in my circle. Dominican middle class & up as well as Haitian middle class & up or focus on graduating and finding a good job or taking over family business. They have same morals and aim at the best. They study together and even become good friends. The accept the propaganda but dont let it get to them. They stay in there niche circle and life goes on. If it wasn't for my great dominican friends when I arrived in the DR showing me the ropes knowing the right people to get things done I would've been lost. After all it's there country and know how to mainouevre in it just like I do with them in Haiti.
From: Haiti
I have helped many dominican friends get a foot in business venture in Haiti..One must have a tigueraje a la haitiana :) On another note dominican criminals & haitians ones have seen the green backs co-orperating with each other to do their menace on society. Now why can't honest abiding Haitian citizens & Dominicans catch up to do the same thing? We haitians love the DR for good and the bad just as my dominican colleagues feel about haiti. NGO's are exploiting both groups to fatten their pocket..Remember they can leave the island after inticing the two countries. While we are at the brink of ripping each other apart they'll be in southern France blowing the funds that was suppose to end slavery and blah blah blah. I will not give you a link since I have left the initials of the person. Do your damn research arent you in school in the UK now? Your american training is showing..LOL..humour.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, you graduated from INTEC? what year? I know alot of people (haitian & dominican) that graduate from there. Anyway, your comments are always a pleasure to read.
From: United States
Mr. Belial:
I wasnt aware of Mr. Mill concept, I'm in the process of readings his "Doctrine".
But my question to everyone posting here, Are we aware of the "Jus Solis & Lex Solis " Doctrines.
Were I can find DR's Constitutionin regards of Dominican citizenship definition online !!.
I do understand the misfeelings on this issue, but where else and for how long this can go on ??
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 1:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I graduated on the year 2004, mr. Jabao. Even though the teachers were excellent on their respective branches of learning, economics wasn't as popular as a career choice over there as it is now. The reason for the career's recent boost being that the people, after suffering so much economic hardship on the last stages of the 2000-2004 administration, are now yearning to know more about how the economic process really function on this country. LOL
Written by: Belial, 6 Mar 2008 3:24 PM
From: United States, Texas
I wasnt aware of Mr. Mill concept, I'm in the process of readings his "Doctrine".
[You have, then, a natural knack for Mill's logic.]
But my question to everyone posting here, Are we aware of the "Jus Solis & Lex Solis " Doctrines.
[Yeah, but these doctrines don't count, where positive law exists, but usually positive law follows these doctrines.]
Were I can find DR's Constitutionin regards of Dominican citizenship definition online !!.
[Spanish versions are everywhere, but I haven't found an English version.]
I do understand the misfeelings on this issue, but where else and for how long this can go on ??
[Forever. Many countries have the same problem or worse. The US reactionaries, for example, feel almost all other peoples are trash or behind-kissers. So, US reactionaries need to despise almost everybody. But reactionary Dominicans only have Haitians to look down on with intense contempt. Only Haitians make Dominican reactionaries feel good about themselves.]
From: Haiti
Jabao your take on Haitian-Dominican relations is so true. Criminals of both countries often find that it is much more profitable to put aside differences and work together to do their illicit activity. It would make much more sense that law-abiding hardworking citizens do the same. We're simply two colors of peas all in one pod.
From: United States, New York City
"But reactionary Dominicans only have Haitians to look down on with intense contempt."
Dominicans who perceive themselves to be members upper class look down upon ANYONE on the island who is not their "kind". My mouth has dropped on the several occasions I've heard so-called upper class dominicans comment on what they perceive to be the "average" dominican. This is typical of elites everywhere, though, and I'd be very careful to categorize the attitude of the dominican elites toward our haitian neighbors as simply anti-haitian.
From: United States
T I T U L O III
DERECHOS POLITICOS
SECCION I
DE LA NACIONALIDAD
ART.11.- Son dominicanos:
Todas las personas que nacieren en el territorio de la República, con excepción de los hijos legítimos de los extranjeros residentes en el país en representación diplomática o los que están de tránsito en él.
Las personas que al presente estén investidas de esta calidad en virtud de constituciones y leyes anteriores.
I dont read anything that say that you have to be son of legal residents ??????????
Art 11, Don't mention anywhere/anything about illegals parents children, and I will be baffle to learn that another law said the contrary !!!! So, "Jus Solis" its the argument for their case.
Translation: Todas las personas que nacieren en el territorio de la República,
ALL THE PERSONS BORN IN THE REPUBLIC TERRITORY, are Dominicans with the exceptions of Diplomats or transit personel
Dominican Constitution very clear, theres no confusion only with Haitians nationals !!!
From: United States
"Person in" Transit (NOUN) Def: an act, process, or instance of "passing through or over", in this case it reffers to a Passenger or Ship crew. etc
I will like to know what US officials down there think about DR stand in this matter ??, will be nice to gave DR a little of their own medicine. !!!!
From: United States
Mexican and many other illegal foreigner (Polish, Russian, Dominicans etc), when giving birth in US territory the Constitution protect those new borns, they're born as US Nationals, citizenship its the rights you excersice when you become an adult.
What its happening at DR, its "CRAZY". Very obvious...
"El Negrito del Batey"
Written by: Belial, 6 Mar 2008 4:31 PM
From: United States, Texas
" 'Person in' Transit (NOUN) Def: an act, process, or instance of "passing through or over", in this case it reffers to a Passenger or Ship crew. etc "
oooo
The transit thing is such a small and insignificant loophole that it really doesn't exist or apply. The transit thing is more of a pretext than a loophole.
From: United States, New York City
You know, at one point I supported the measure of not granting dominican citizenship to whomever was born in dr to parents who resided in the country illegally. I have since recosnsidered my position. Whatever country you happen to be born in should be your country of citizenship, end of story. In retrospect this law is nothing more than an excuse for institutionilized racism against persons of african descent by the dominican state (if luperon had been born in today's dominican republic he probably wouldn't even be considered a citizen...imagine that). With that said, there needs to be a serious effort to control the border with haiti by the dominican state for a myriad of reasons.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Most of the european nations and Japan don't recognize anybody born on their soil being its right citizens unless "Parents" are from their country.
So "Perception" and "Haitians" in general stop pushing what is good in Your dreams and only benefit your personal agenda.
Dominican Constitution can never be violated to please your demands and needs.
What about Somebody from "Haiti" born in "Japan" will the Specific "Haitian" make a big deal about it or abide and respect "Japanese" legalities???
From: United States, New York City
"Most of the european nations and Japan don't recognize anybody born on their soil being its right citizens unless "Parents" are from their country."
And for reasons that are dubious at best, JR. A person born to turkish parents in germany will have a hell of a time becoming a German citizen but yet a ukranian that can prove his family immigrated from germany to the ukraine centuries ago can easily acquire German citizenship. Japan's laws are meant to disenfranchise the significan Korean population there. Let's call them what they are. These are all "purity of race" laws and nothing else.
From: United States
Ruby Tuesday !!!
Can you show me where its stated in DR Constitution????
And I will "R E T R A C T" in this forum A N D "apologize" for all said.
You have your opportunity now to shovel it to me !!!!!
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Cibaeno75: if these laws are respected in these countries why We have to bend our rules to please international community and Haitians.
From: United States
R U B Y
if these laws are respected in these countries why We have to bend our rules to please international community and Haitians
S H O W M E T H E L A W S !!!
From: Haiti
Lautaro, I know that INTEC has a great engineering program I would've never thought the economic program was establishing it's mark. Any rate, Cibao75 haitian elitist looks down at everyone including dominicans too. The only people that really differentiate our the native haitian/dominicans. That's another thing both countries need to address which isn't going away over nigth. I prefer to stay away from the race topic as the sole purpose although it plays a major role but Im just tired of the same old..No Im indio,blanco dominican and all haitians are negros. It gets boring and nothing ever get resolved. I say keep things the way the are and come to common grounds economically. Dominican Republic since its existance formally has never been haitainize nor has Haiti been dominicanise. This is a simple tool to divide and conquer. Give the people clairin and bachata/compas both will forget their woes and be happy:)
From: United States, New York City
i"f these laws are respected in these countries why We have to bend our rules to please international community and Haitians."
I understand what you're saying, JR, Dominican sovereignty should be respected by the international community but what I'm saying is that the logic behind these laws is flawed. I've always hated hypocrisy and after some serious soul searching I had to honestly say to myself that this wouldn't even be an issue if the haitians were a predominantly white people (regardless of their educational or cultural level if that were the case the dynamics would be different and anyone who disagrees is just refusing to see the truth). With that said, I believe in the integrity of the Dominican state and I'm opposed to any and all unification projects with our neighbor but I stand by my belief that anyone born on Dominican soil has a right to be called Dominicano.
From: Haiti
Cibaeno75, I think every dominican & haitian needs to do some deep soul searching. The fear tactic & propaganda has not gotten dominicans nor haitians anywhere. Stating what you did isn't "vende patria" rather being objective and calling a spade a spade. Haitians natif natal aren't going to run across the border to become dominican. We are solely talking about haitian descendants that have been there for generations. Its funny because let's be real why would anyone want to be dominican since they are still stuck on the island and need a visa to go to just about everywhere. Calmate, just to prove a point it is crazy to think haitians will have an exodus dying to become dominicans.:) This is just a dominicanismo over playing the situation..you know..exaggerating the story.. Haitians of dominican descent are not dominicanizing Haiti or eat Mofongo..LOL They are haitian in everyway. Don't worry uniting the country as One without the identities of the two will never happen.
From: Haiti
On another note..How many dominicans know anything about Haiti..I mean musicians,cuisine, art(well that u do). How many of you know that haitian of dominican descent hide it just like domincians of haitian descent. We both are ashamed of each other. Now here you guys thought all along that haitians are beneath them while haitians think dominicans are beneath them. Generally speaking and of course doesn't mean everyone. Tranquilo just to prove a point and poke fun at our stupidity. I can go on but I dont want to offend neither haitians or dominicans by letting the fear out of the closet.. How many dominicans know that many places in haiti still have their taino names..dah, Haiti is one of the native names which is now synonmous to african/black on the island..Ok, love & peace..
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 6:02 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Veering a little off topic, it´s really a strange thing that Digicel hasn´t made any plans for entering the dominican cell phone market, seeing as how they are currently the strongest company on this market on the entire Caribbean. Do they fear the competition that they would face from Orange, Centennial and Codetel, mr. Jabao?
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 6:09 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
LOL, let me name some of the places mr. Jabao (at least the ones that I know of): Leogane (Yaguana), Gonaives (Guanabo), Bayaha and Tiburon. If one is missing, please let me know. :-)
Of them, the most important from an archaeological point of view is Leogane, because this city was the capital of the ancient Taino princedom of Jaragua on the Precolombine times.
From: Haiti
More Taino-originated names of places in Haiti are Jacmel (Yaquimel) although there are many versions of the name's origin. There is a street and a small island called Anacaona. Grand Goave and Petit Goave (simply Goave by the Taino and Aguava by the Spanish).
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Mar 2008 9:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What I have heard about Jacmel is that it was originally a spanish town called Villanueva de Yaquimo. On that town, Diego Velazquez, Juan Esquivel and company would prepare the expeditions to conquer Cuba and Jamaica, respectively. Later, when the spanish abandoned that settlement, it would be occupied by some bands of runaway slaves (or maroons as they're more commonly known) before the french buccaneers drove them out and settled the zone.
From: Haiti
There's a bunch of stories and theories so it could be that but I've also heard it was Taino-originated so I thought it'd be good to state it lol. I personally don't know where the name came from.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Mar 2008 3:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I have also heard a lot of stories about Bayaha (the current Fort Liberté), is it true that the old french forts over there can only be accessible by boat?
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Jabao, I agree with you to certain extent but the problem is that Haiti is not ready for such a proposal(I wish it was).Haiti is lagging behind(the DR) on all economic indicators due to massive levels of Poverty (due to a decades of allocative inefficiency). Haiti MUST build capital, both human and physical it must also encourage entrepreneurship and technology while maintaining political stability. Barring any unforeseen disturbances in the (worldwide) business cycle and a drastic change international aid, Haiti can pretty much expect what’s ahead, and that’s a lonely road in her recovery. This is why, Haiti, needs to call home all her children abroad that possess the know how to truly help her, in her hour of need, but this is all non and void while the government stalls in implementing dual citizenship for her people.
From: United Kingdom
I must admit;Mr. Jabao, that certain Dominicans perception of Haitians, are just simply stupid to put it mildly, but that just speaks to those individuals intelligence.These are the same characters that know nothing about Haiti and it’s people(some of the most kind and hard working people that I ever had the pleasure of meeting, specially the country folk). If they had met my ex-gf(Haitian of polish decent) they would have probably jumped off a cliff before believing that she was Haitian(I also had a Haitian GF that looked like Michelle Jean but better lol).
From: United Kingdom
I also agree, that Haiti is incredibly valuable trading partner and is deficiently much maligned(as. I don’t believe the stats in regards to trade because they fail to account for the underground economy(black market) that is evident between both nations),but if Haiti, was to cut off trade I would see it as a plus for Dominican producers(in the Long-run) because it would force them to look for other markets and therefore encourage a culture of export abroad and not the easy route(Haiti would fare far worse if such a thing was to happen and the short-run beneficiaries would be the Dominican consumer as over supply would lead cheap domestic prices).
From: United Kingdom
As,for Dominicans working habits,I can’t really blame them;they are truly“Discouraged Workers” in the true economic sense.Because when these same individuals migrate they work 12 hour shifts of what can be considered hard labor just to come back to the country and give the illusion of how easy it is to make a buck therefore encouraging other to migrate(over abundant cheap labor is also not helping the situation, I‘m not going to say that some Dominicans tent to be lazy because Haitian Cheap Labor that would be a classic example of a Post Hoc or ergo propter hoc fallacy).Now, Mr. Jabao,Ceteris paribus, in my opinion(and my review of statistical models on overpopulation)there’s way to many Haitians in the DR, for an efficient management social services.In closing DR-CAFTA is shouldn’t to be measured in the short-run because the market needs time to adjust now 15 years from will be a true measure(case and point remember how good NAFTA looked at the beginning).
From: United Kingdom
Etu Jabao ? lol
Man, I take it from the British everyday as they are keen to remind me that they invented economics and they don ’t stop with the name dropping Keynes, Smith, Ricardo, Malthus and Etc.. .I do research all day when I’m at school pardon me for being a bit lazy lol. Sorry for taking so long to answer the local pub was having a beer j/k.
Smaller
Bigger
Close Gallery
Facebook
Digg this
del.icio.us
Technorati
Yahoo
Why they have elected to spew their vengeance on this country I don't know, however, these two have been at it a long time now and deserve to be put to pasture. they should be looking a racism in their own respective countries. it is necessary to look at something deeper.. there are forces out there that wish to bestow the problems of haiti on the rd. it has been tried manay times in the past but like stink weed keeps coming to the surface for another peek so se who will take the bait. There is a solution to the situation in haiti but no one has the intestinal fortitude to do it
If this is the way that the certain filthy elements of the DR bourgeoisie treats black US diplomats based on race, then one easily imagines how racist elements of the DR bourgeosie humiliate millions of black Dominicans [who are much more than the 10% of the DR population often claimed using a loose definition of "black"], Haitians and other Caribbeans, and Africans.
It's unjust that black Dominicans, Haitians and other Caribbeans, black Pacific peoples and Africans become the victims of filthy, rotten, and animalistic elements of the Dominican bourgeoisie, simply because these animalistic elements suffer from inferiority feelings when they compared themselves to great racists, the US imperialists, the example which the DR bourgeoisie apes.
You must have 'overdosed' on your HATE PILLS this morning.
Be careful of that, old son. it can get you into trouble and ruin your health.
TB
Neither the mass of the US nor of the DR workers see the back-stabbing and two-timing role of the US and DR bourgeois ruling classes, respectively, as central to the problem.
Illegal immigration is a club in the hands of the ruling bourgeoisie against the domestic proletariat which the bourgeois also exploits and oppresses. The ruling bourgeois uses the immigrants to hold down the domestic workers and uses the domestic workers to hold down the immigrants. And the profits pour in.
The domestic workers should turn again against the bourgeosie.
The film "The Price of Sugar" is the object of a vicious and lying campaign by reactionary sectors of the DR bourgeoisie and their US imperialist allies.
Some Dominican officials and personalities deny accusations of slavery. However, the DR Pres. Leonel Fernández stated publicly during a seminar on immigration policy in 2005 that collective expulsions of Haitians were carried out "in an abusive and inhuman way."
Plus, it's unclear to what extent, if any, Leonel lobbied against the film "The Price of Sugar," killing its shot at an Oscar award.
"Enough is enough"
No more lies and non sense agenda...........
0000
This is likely false, but it shouldn't be dismissed summarily because "non-registry of Haitian children" in the DR could reflect discrimination based on national origin more than or rather than race, especially in countries with similar racial compositions like Haiti and DR.
Clearly, the DR bourgeoisie and foreign "investors' " appetite for highest capitalist rate of profit is the motive force fueling the illegal immigration, it is simply more profitable for DR and foreign capitalists to exploit defendless Haitian labor rather than Dominicans in many industries.
Non-registry helps draw more "sex" tourists ... 3 M in toto ... to the DR than any other country in Caribbean.
So, many critics of the illegal immigration, manipulated by the false propaganda of the bourgeois media, blame race and national origin rather than the incurable rottenness of the capitalist system.
The four billionaires of Cuban origin, including G. Cisneros. all of whom maintain huge multi-million dollar estates on the DR south coast near La Romana are all involved in big-money human smuggling operations. But they are well-connected with the ruling GOP regime in the USA.
In human smuggling business, Central American children ... who are often "legally" adopted by US and Canadian degenerates ... are more popular and costly as sex slaves than Haitians.
There is, according to the US State Department 2007 report on human smuggling, a large sector of DR citizens ... males, females. and, of course, children involved ... in the industry of sex exploitation and forced labor.
See also: O'Connell Davidson, Julia (December 1995). Child Prostitution and Sex Tourism - Dominican Republic. ECPAT. Retrieved on 2007-06-07.
0000
DR electoral chief, does not have morality even to deny he was born with a tail in his behind !!!!
Its his responsability to enforce "Jus Sollis"
Mr. Samedi commented, "At least the people they called bandits and gangsters shared what they had with the community when they were here. People could eat. They had food and had running water. They didn't have to eat dirt to live or have to wash their clothes and their bodies in ditches of dirty running water."
Several children run by with almost blondish hair, a clear sign of malnutrition amongst blacks, to punctuate Mr. Samedi's point. (cont...)
Source: http://www.nathanielturner.com/haitiansforcedtoeatdirt.htm
Is easy pointing at DR for "Haiti's hell living standards"
I will never believe in Haitians since They are so full of animosity against Dominican Republic.
That's why You will never have a stable, organized and fit country.
Dominican and Haitian constitutions state very "CLEAR" who is its citizen and who's not
also the JCE already corrected this issue with the "pink book" therefore this is my point on calling "Hatians" STUBBORN
Since You trying to prove a pointless issue or case but "Good luck" with your common sense
"IF you ever have one"
I agree that haitians are treated with dignity and respect that are from middle class & attend the universities. One can go to the hospitals and see many haitian doctors & other sectors with haitian businesses. Churchill Avenue obviously means that one has money & come from a better economic background than the mass. Unfortunately, the majority of haitians are illegal and face discrimination& exploited by their employers(not all of the time) but still co-exist with the average dominicans in the barrios. This one is a toughy. I prefer not to bash the DR and think positive despite the descrepancies. One thing is we need to improve relations and intercultural programs. If one goes to Petion Ville La Esquina where many dominicans that live in Haiti are enjoying themselves..Just like the soccer field at PUCMM in Santiago by haitians..hey you guys can teach us baseball..After going to several games I appreciate more. Love Peace & Harmony for haitians & dominicans
It would be a pleasure since we haitians are fanatics about soccer as much as dominicans about baseball. I think every haitian comes out of the womb kicking a soccer ball. One can go to PUCMM,INTEC,UNIBE to see how many haitians are attending school there out of there own expense. Why can't our people just get along for the betterment of the two countries and stop with the hatred among two brother nations. I remember my first baseball game. I didn't have know idea about the game. I thought dominicans were crazy..lol..Hey, now Im a fan..
0000
The above statement, Who would say this is not true !!!!!!!!
I watch you continually whine about the same thing. It's sickening. Do you even know your own history? Everybody isn't whining about the DR. I wonder how you would feel if some Puerto Ricans told you to keep your Dominicans under control and stay out of Puerto Rico. People who want to survive will go to any means to do so. You have the kind of hatred that spreads like a bacteria in a vein and needs to be eliminated. DR history isn't not that pretty either. It's so irritatiing to see people that don't understand the closest country to Haiti is going to have illegal issues. Look at the history between the two. As long as you share the same island, you will always be connected one way or another. You're no different than the Americans complaining about all the Mexicans when they live right up the road. Get over it please. Try to make peace with it.
Haitians are abusing Dominican Republic and this have to stop........
Haitians don't want to be accountable for their own actions and to me this is (mediocre and negative).
Truth hurts when human beings don't have The right approach to some circumstances (this apply to Haitians)
I respect Your points of view but I could care less about sensitivity for people like You and everybody else.
I'm pro-Dominican not Pro-haitian and my points of view are base on the same abuse and bashing of Haitians towards DR, already ask few haitians but they don't reply to my questions (this is being mediocre)
JCE already create the pink book and Dominican and Haitian Constitution states clear who is citizen at birth.
Question for You Lautaro and all your dear brothers??
Why promoting or fighting for something that is already stablished by law?? Birthright
Hopefully you are the smartest Haitian
Why if Junta Central Electoral, Haitian constitution and Dominican Constitution states very clear who Is who when born.
Why haitians have a hidden agenda (with UN) backing haiti??
So why You and Your people want To force Dominican Constitution to meet your demands and needs???
You are so smart and intelligent and along with all Haitians You all have PHD's and all kinds of degrees (Speak 5 languages)
We "Dominicans" are so dumb and only speak 1 language.
Wait for your answer regarding constitution for both countries "Mr Genius"
Buenos Aires, Mar 5 (Prensa Latina) President Cristina Fernandez will visit Argentinean troops deployed in Haiti with the UN Stabilisation Mission (MINUSTAH), official sources confirmed.
Fernandez will travel to Venezuela on Wednesday to meet his counterpart Hugo Chavez in order to sign commercial, energetic, cultural and agricultural agreements.
Tomorrow, she will travel to Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, to attend the 20th Summit of Rio Group.
She will later pay her first visit to the Argentinean troops of the MINUSTAH, a peacekeeping mission established by the UN Security Council on 2004.
Argentina keeps 562 soldiers, four Police officers and a hospital in Haiti, as part of MINUSTAH, which has 9,500 soldiers and policemen from over 40 countries.
Argentinean soldiers are developing cooperation programs in Port of Prince, aimed at supporting social plans.
I agree with most of your assesment in your first post on this thread Lautaro, but a question arises from your comment. How "local" are the "arisctocrats" that control the sugar industry? The two biggest landowning sugar producers in DR are the Fanjuls, who are by no means dominican (they're cubans who's fortune and reputation for exploitation precede Castro), and the Vicinis, a family that has never renounced its Italian citizenship even after several generations in dr and who so identified with Italy that the allies decided to include them in a list of Italians who should be blacklisted because of their alleged ties to italian fascism predating the second world war (and this was after the family produced a dominican president). cont'd
As such one can conclude that these families have no true allegiance to the dominican state or its people. Maybe they treat the haitians like crap because they view the host society were they do their business as crap, just a venue to perpetuate their fortunes, denizens be damned and so too be damned the image projected by the practices of these two families as long as the weight falls upon dominican society and not their businesses in particular. Just food for thought.
0000
This is a funny kind of "local" if you ask me.
Even though terminology leaves something to be desired, I agree with the underlying point that the inapt terms express.
Exactly. The Fanjuls mechanized all their sugar acreage in Florida precisely because locals were getting fed up from all the complaints of exploitation that were being put out by the west indians the Fanjuls used to bring in to do seasonal sugar cutting work there(I suggest readers of DT do some research into the Fanjuls and their exploitative practices). Their lawyers knew that the sun had set on their exploitation of human labor within the US' borders and advised them to mechanize, which they promptly did. The Fanjuls know that they can get away with all types of crap in DR and as such it'll take a long time, if ever, for them to modernize their sugar operations in DR. Besides, its the dominican people who are catching the heat for the business practices of these individuals (I wanted to call them something else but I'll be civil) so why should they care anyway.
0000
There is nothing wrong with those slavery accusations. You shouldn't wear yourself out enlightning others about the accusations. Rather wear yourself out enlightening yourself.
The more important source on the accusations is the Dominican section of the US State Department 2007 Report on Human Trafficking.
The Report doesn't accuse all Haitians or all Dominicans in the DR of being slaves or persons who perform "forced labor."
The Report only says that "significant numbers" of Hiatians and Dominicans in the DR perform forced labor which many consider slavery, although some Dominicans evidently don't consider forced labor to be slavery.
The Report doesn't say how many specifically compose "significant numbers."
Many say the Report says all or most Haitians in DR are slaves or all or most Dominicans in DR are slaves.
This is an distortion.
I definitely agree with the gyst of what you're saying and I'd like to add that it is necessary to identify who the true enemies of both peoples are in order to move forward. Many would argue that enterprises such as the Fanjuls provide much needed investment capital for DR. I would counter that investments that result in near slavery conditions for many and in the tarnishing of the image of the dominican people abroad are investments that should not be welcomed or tolerated.
As long as they don’t belong to Haiti !!!!!
As long as they don’t belong to Haiti !!!!!
oooo
John Stuart Mill's method of difference
The 2 possible causes for denial of citizenship to the kids, as suggested by Perception's data, is EITHER (1) illegal status of parents OR (2) Haitian descent.
Six instances to work with -- the Haitians, Colombians, Guatemalans, Panamanians, Mexicans, Chinese.
Haitian descent is the only one of the 2 possible causes in the 6 instances that is always present when a denial occurs and always absent when a denial does not occur.
In 5 of the 6 instances, illegality is present when a denial does not occur. Plus, illegality is absent in the Haitian instance when a denial occurs. So, illegality doesn't cause denials.
Leaving Haitian descent as the only possible cause.
Mill's On Liberty is one of the founding texts of classical liberalism and one of the most important treatises ever written on the concept of liberty. The book explores the nature and limits of the power that can be legitimately exercised by society over the individual. One argument that Mill develops further than any previous philosopher is the harm principle. The harm principle holds that each individual has the right to act as he wants, so long as these actions do not harm others. If the action is self-regarding, that is, if it only directly affects the person undertaking the action, then society has no right to intervene, even if it feels the actor is harming himself. Mill excuses those who are "incapable of self-government" from this principle, such as young children or those living in "backward states of society". It is important to emphasize that Mill did not consider giving offense to constitute "harm"; an action could not be restricted because it cont.
On Liberty involves an impassioned defense of free speech. Mill argues that free discourse is a necessary condition for intellectual and social progress. We can never be sure, he contends, that a silenced opinion does not contain some element of the truth. He also argues that allowing people to air false opinions is productive for two reasons. First, individuals are more likely to abandon erroneous beliefs if they are engaged in an open exchange of ideas. Second, by forcing other individuals to re-examine and re-affirm their beliefs in the process of debate, these beliefs are kept from declining into mere dogma. It is not enough for Mill that one simply has an unexamined belief that happens to be true; one must understand why the belief in question is the true one.
I will suggest the Electoral chief to go back to his text books and read a little bit more on "Jus Sollis".
I don't blame a White person been rascist, but a Negro Dominicano thats to much.!!!!
What DominicanConstitution States about who is Dominican??
What Haitian constituion states about who is Haitian??
Pink book created already by the JCE, so Haitians don't make up any BS stories.
"Backward states of society" will apply "Very well" to Haiti since your country is going everyday backwards and never having a organized way of living.
"Racism is a 2 ways opinion"
Whether Your biassed thinking allows to tell right from wrong,
We do have a "white" minority in Dominican Republic so I guess Some people have a right to be racist like You mentioned.
Is it fair for your country to demand that service from us while extorting payments of foreign debt from us, payments that demand from our countries the very funds that could be used for fighting this calamity?
P.S I also have found part of a Documentary on the Creole population of New Orleans on how they’re way of thinking may sound a little familiar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tfVpHYyDcY
oooo
"On Liberty" is a masterpiece on poltics and ethics and the relation between the two. Along with The Republic, The Prince, Politics (by Aristotle), The Communist Manifesto and State and Revolution, On Liberty supplies the foundation for my political outlook.
But the Mills' work I had in mind when I critiqued your post above was "Systems of Logic," also a masterpiece in its field, in which Mills explores five methods of causal analysis, one of which is the method of difference which your post above about the denial of citizenship to kids of illegal Haitian immigrants is a pristine example of the use of this method.
This article shows how worthless and useless it is for developing countries to depend on their petty bourgeois intelligentsia who deep in their souls love imperialism and long to be exploited by imperialism. Substituting foreign "investors" for the migrating locals is even more useless. Developing countries must develop and nurture a revolutionary, Marxist, Leninist, and Communist intelligentsia on which the country can depend.
0000
Expert Warns against Brain Drain in Caribbean
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={A360340E-1D85-4EA6-BF95-87CDEF057BCF})&language=EN
Havana, Mar 6 (Prensa Latina) Brain drain is a serious problem in many small Caribbean countries, according to World Bank Executive Pablo Fanjzylber.
"More than 80 percent of professionals born in Haiti, Jamaica, Grenada or Guyana live abroad, mainly in the United States," he pointed out.
Con't
RESUMED
A report presented by Fanjzylber at the Tenth International Meeting on Globalization and Development Problems notes that 30 percent of the labor force from the Caribbean Islands had migrated in 2000, in contrast to statistics from non-Caribbean nations.
In that regard, he added that 10 percent of university graduates migrate from South America, and 15-20 percent from Mexico and Central America.
He pointed out that the small Caribbean islands clearly top the list of professionals who migrate to developed countries.
However, Fanjzylber admitted that Mexico and Central America tend to lead the ranking of migrants in absolute terms.
The Havana meeting is being attended by 1,195 delegates from 55 countries and 24 regional and international organizations.
According to sources from the Organizing Committee, the most represented countries are Mexico, Argentina, Ecuador, Guatemala and Venezuela and Cuba
I wasnt aware of Mr. Mill concept, I'm in the process of readings his "Doctrine".
But my question to everyone posting here, Are we aware of the "Jus Solis & Lex Solis " Doctrines.
Were I can find DR's Constitutionin regards of Dominican citizenship definition online !!.
I do understand the misfeelings on this issue, but where else and for how long this can go on ??
[You have, then, a natural knack for Mill's logic.]
But my question to everyone posting here, Are we aware of the "Jus Solis & Lex Solis " Doctrines.
[Yeah, but these doctrines don't count, where positive law exists, but usually positive law follows these doctrines.]
Were I can find DR's Constitutionin regards of Dominican citizenship definition online !!.
[Spanish versions are everywhere, but I haven't found an English version.]
I do understand the misfeelings on this issue, but where else and for how long this can go on ??
[Forever. Many countries have the same problem or worse. The US reactionaries, for example, feel almost all other peoples are trash or behind-kissers. So, US reactionaries need to despise almost everybody. But reactionary Dominicans only have Haitians to look down on with intense contempt. Only Haitians make Dominican reactionaries feel good about themselves.]
Dominicans who perceive themselves to be members upper class look down upon ANYONE on the island who is not their "kind". My mouth has dropped on the several occasions I've heard so-called upper class dominicans comment on what they perceive to be the "average" dominican. This is typical of elites everywhere, though, and I'd be very careful to categorize the attitude of the dominican elites toward our haitian neighbors as simply anti-haitian.
DERECHOS POLITICOS
SECCION I
DE LA NACIONALIDAD
ART.11.- Son dominicanos:
Todas las personas que nacieren en el territorio de la República, con excepción de los hijos legítimos de los extranjeros residentes en el país en representación diplomática o los que están de tránsito en él.
Las personas que al presente estén investidas de esta calidad en virtud de constituciones y leyes anteriores.
I dont read anything that say that you have to be son of legal residents ??????????
Art 11, Don't mention anywhere/anything about illegals parents children, and I will be baffle to learn that another law said the contrary !!!! So, "Jus Solis" its the argument for their case.
Translation: Todas las personas que nacieren en el territorio de la República,
ALL THE PERSONS BORN IN THE REPUBLIC TERRITORY, are Dominicans with the exceptions of Diplomats or transit personel
Dominican Constitution very clear, theres no confusion only with Haitians nationals !!!
I will like to know what US officials down there think about DR stand in this matter ??, will be nice to gave DR a little of their own medicine. !!!!
What its happening at DR, its "CRAZY". Very obvious...
"El Negrito del Batey"
oooo
The transit thing is such a small and insignificant loophole that it really doesn't exist or apply. The transit thing is more of a pretext than a loophole.
So "Perception" and "Haitians" in general stop pushing what is good in Your dreams and only benefit your personal agenda.
Dominican Constitution can never be violated to please your demands and needs.
What about Somebody from "Haiti" born in "Japan" will the Specific "Haitian" make a big deal about it or abide and respect "Japanese" legalities???
And for reasons that are dubious at best, JR. A person born to turkish parents in germany will have a hell of a time becoming a German citizen but yet a ukranian that can prove his family immigrated from germany to the ukraine centuries ago can easily acquire German citizenship. Japan's laws are meant to disenfranchise the significan Korean population there. Let's call them what they are. These are all "purity of race" laws and nothing else.
Can you show me where its stated in DR Constitution????
And I will "R E T R A C T" in this forum A N D "apologize" for all said.
You have your opportunity now to shovel it to me !!!!!
if these laws are respected in these countries why We have to bend our rules to please international community and Haitians
S H O W M E T H E L A W S !!!
I understand what you're saying, JR, Dominican sovereignty should be respected by the international community but what I'm saying is that the logic behind these laws is flawed. I've always hated hypocrisy and after some serious soul searching I had to honestly say to myself that this wouldn't even be an issue if the haitians were a predominantly white people (regardless of their educational or cultural level if that were the case the dynamics would be different and anyone who disagrees is just refusing to see the truth). With that said, I believe in the integrity of the Dominican state and I'm opposed to any and all unification projects with our neighbor but I stand by my belief that anyone born on Dominican soil has a right to be called Dominicano.
Of them, the most important from an archaeological point of view is Leogane, because this city was the capital of the ancient Taino princedom of Jaragua on the Precolombine times.
Man, I take it from the British everyday as they are keen to remind me that they invented economics and they don ’t stop with the name dropping Keynes, Smith, Ricardo, Malthus and Etc.. .I do research all day when I’m at school pardon me for being a bit lazy lol. Sorry for taking so long to answer the local pub was having a beer j/k.