I wish the best outcome for our sister country haiti. Hopefully from these protests, the gov't will be able to make some necessary changes.

New York Times
Stumbling Forward in Haiti
Published: February 17, 2006

Beyond this feat of survival, Mr. Préval did not have a successful first term. The police remained brutal and corrupt. No progress was made toward creating a competent judiciary. Legislative elections were badly flawed. Drug trafficking flourished. Pro-government gangs ruled the slums. Little economic growth trickled down to the impoverished majority.

How about a little plagiarism


"Beyond this feat of survival, Mr. Fernandez did not have a successful first term. The police remained brutal and corrupt. No progress was made toward creating a competent judiciary. Legislative elections were badly flawed. Drug trafficking flourished. Pro-government gangs ruled the slums. Little economic growth trickled down to the impoverished majority."

Change one word and you could get easily apply the report to either side of La Española!

hehehe..I can already hear Rubi arriving onto this article, poised and ready to comment on Josean's post. lol!

"This morning, cardinal Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez asked the government to bolster security along the border, to keep the crisis from pushing hundreds of thousands of Haitians to cross into Dominican territory"

So who I guess the Cardinal is calling the shots now. How could this be?

Oh! yeah this is DR I forgot the country is partly owned by the Vatican.

TRUE STORY BELOW

Haitian Vodou:

Is also practice on the island and it is not very different from Dominican Vodou. The main difference is the percussion used in Haitian Vodou, and that the spirits when mounting someone speak in Kreyol instead of Dominican Spanish. In both versions the name of the spirits is Lwa, although in Dominican Spanish it sounds more like "Loa". Haitian vodou is very much influenced by religions from Benin, and to compliment it also influenced by the Kongo religions, the Yoruba and a bit by the Tainos.

I wonder what language would Rubi speak when the Loa takes him over....

hehehe Rubi being taken over by spirits would be entertaining. Vodou: A largely Afro-based animist faith with influences from the Tainos and one of the world's most misunderstood religions. Espiritismo and candomble and obeah are all very similar. All the countries with these belief systems in practice all so happen to be overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. Rubi being entranced by loas is a sight to see! lol!!! On a serious note I would like to know why the cardinal would call for the Dominican government to bolster security along the border? He is a religious pontiff and therefore should have no "power" to call shots politically or economically or otherwise. Wouldn't you think?

Please, keep your voodo gods away from my country and my people...

And then Haitians are stunned when we distrust their practices and wish to keep them on their side of the border...

"Who May concern"

The planet is already seeing live and close captioned the "Modus Haitian Vivendi" to show
their education and class.

The news is related to the "Haitian goverment failure" and "Haitians" like "MR COCOLO"
Josean is trying to divert attention from the real issue and which is the mess that Haitians
have in their jungle and trying to push negative energy against our president and our goverment with our "Diplomatic", "Elegant", "Elocuent", "Classy" and "Civilized" approach.

UN and countries worlwide are watching Your behavior so is up to You to continue with the
"Ghetto behavior"

Haitians or Dominicans,

I have a question. Does Haiti have any leaders with any kind of backbone to talk to the Dominican Republic? Also, doe the Dominican President aware of all the injustice going on in his Country?

Geez, I wonder if Haiti does not have any pride to talk back to those foreign politicians making all kinds of discriminatory claims against Haiti and its people... The Dominican Republic once again have bashed Haiti.

Recently in Dominican News a Dominican politician "Federico Antun Batlle" stated that: "El presidente del Partido Reformista Social Cristiano (PRSC), ingeniero, dijo hoy que Haití es el principal problema que tiene la República Dominicana como nación." Meaning or he is saying that Haiti/ Haitians are the ones to blame for the problems they face in DR. Yet, Preval had said nothing back to repudiated this divisive statement. He does nothing and not even a direct public announcement to address this issue or to even try to engage with DR into some kid of forum talk of any kind.

No wonder why it seems that Haitians do not get any respect around the world, because it is clear that they do not have any representation to stand for them when statements like those make the news and came from especially from the Dominican Republic. At least other Countries are far away and do not share the same Island with Haiti. Thus I could understand how feasible it might be to simply ignore them, but DR is right next door to Haiti.

What do you all in here think about that? Your comments. Haiti should hold them accountable for their divisive slurs of incitements that the Dominican Government and its politicians are creating for the people of both Nation who happens to share this Island together. Why does Haiti even have a leader if he will not stand up for Haiti?

It is a darn shame!

Will Rosenberg

You know what kills me... Both Dominicans and Haitians are allowing themselves to buy into the false notions and differences that White Europeans have succeeded at implanting in their minds.

What makes a Dominican?

A Dominican is simply a mulatto. Which means, a mixture of a former African slave and a White European. The romanticize notion that they want to claim Taino Natives in the equation is simply an illusion to demeaning their African side of ancestry.

By saying White Europeans, that goes for France, Spain, Great Britain and Portugal and many more other countries on the European continent and its region.

The Tainos habited the entire Island of first originally named Ayiti, Quisqueya or Boyo. There is nowhere that I see it says Hispanola if not until came Christopher Columbus who, as history to tell you,massacred the Taino natives close to extinction by having killed 98% of the race. Thus any of them whom might have survived to repopulated, by today this blood would have fading and decimated; meaning indeed to a percentage closer to being non-existent of a mixture.

Now the Island was renamed or given a new name, "Hispanola." If Dominicans want to claim anything else that would mention Tainos, basically they are saying they are Ayitianos, Quesqueyans, or Bohioans (Boyo) thus would contradict their hatred for Haitians. So let us say the whole Island is called Hispanola, thus that would make of the habitants of the Island Hispanolanos, would it not?

Of course yes. Because let us take Israel and Palestine for example. Can either of them denounce or claim not being both Middle Eastern or Mediterrainians despite their differences? Of Course not. So ask a Dominican what is a Haitian see what the answer going to be.

What is a Haitian?

A Haitian is an Afro-Latino, much like you have Afro-American. Why? Well the region is called what... Yes, Latin-America. The Island is called what... Oh yeah, Hispanola which before anything else it was called Ayiti, Quisqueya or Bohio (Boyo). but mostly it is Afro because of the African ancestry and Latino given 1) The region, 2) The language and 3) The linked history, the culture of the Island itself. However, I know a lot of Dominicans do not like to read to even read or check this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Latin_American

There are those languages that constitute one to be latino as it states they are called the languages of Romance. Not as in Romantic, but as of in Rome because they spoke Latin. Those language are French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and Creole or any dialects derived from any of those above specific strong latin derivatives .

Anyways, the divisive differences that exist between the two nations and their peoples are due to strong past resentments given their History which race has always played a major role in.

The Dominican Republic even after the Haitian two ruling occupation and several attempts after that was ruled by two Haitian Decent Presidents known in their Country's presidential history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulises_Heureaux He was born in Puerto Plata, but farher was Haitian and his mother was from St. Thomas. He served 3 presidential terms. Obviously he was assassinated.Uhmm, I wonder why...? The there was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Santana who was born in Hincha, now Hinche,Haiti. The first constitutional president of the Dominican Republic the only to have successfully separate the Dominican Republic from Haiti.

Well HispanolanoYoSoy, the only reason why President preval doesn't say anything back to the Dominicans is simply because he is scared and lacks toughness that is needed in a president. This unfortunately has been a trait in numerous Haitian presidents.

hispanolanoYosoy: Your message has an "Agenda" and is not acceptable to anybody from Dominican Republic with a brain.

You Quote "Federico Antun Batlle as not having a right to Say what He said", about Haitians , since
when is a sin to defend what belongs to You and the safety and well being of Your family, friends and country brothers and sisters.

Dominican Republic has its right to protect its citizens against any foreing invasion as is quote on
the Dominican Constitution.

Dominican Republic politicians have their right to express their concerns since We live in a free country and also they don't have to abide by "Haitian rules" to express their concerns.

Remember "We are a free country" and like any "Dominican citizen" They are expressing and defending our people.

I might say that all the real power on the island resides on the US Embassy, more commonly known as "La Embajada", because any kind of policy that might be implemented on the island have to posess their endorsement in order to succeed. Aditionally, any kind of presidential candidate that want to have a prayer on an elections must pay a visit to the Ambassador (a pro-consul would be the right title for them). Welcome to the forum, mr. Hispanolano, I might advise you to be prepared to be bashed relentlessly by Rubirosa and the other "patriots" lurking over here, because you might have "offended" their "sensitivities" and "national pride". LOL

As an aside, I have to tell you that I agree with most of your opinions, excepting the Pedro Santana's one, just for history's sake: first, on the year he and his twin were born (1800), Hincha was still a territory of the spanish colony, it would be on the following year when it would be conquered by Toussaint, Moyse and their troops (cont..)

(cont...) in fact, Haiti's sovereignity over that town (and almost the entire Plateau Central), would not be clear until the final border agreements of the 1930's, when the DR renounced forever to its claims to any of those territories. Secondly, you're offending your compatriots giving him the haitian nationality, because, aside from Trujillo and Balaguer, Santana is the third most hated dominican president by the haitian intelectuals, because of his and his party's annexationism, which would give europeans a foothold from which they would be able to enslave the island again.

Bottom line is Haitian goverment "MUST" fix their mess and show some proactive actions, and Dominicans in Dominican Republic have all their "Right of Opinion" to adress all their major concerns regarding the "Silent Haitian invasion"

Dominican Republic is a free country and anybody concerned about our future is abiding by our laws and freedom of speech.

Haitians are the ones to blame for the problems they face in DR. Yet, Preval had said nothing back to repudiated this divisive statement. He does nothing and not even a direct public announcement to address this issue or to even try to engage with DR into some kid of forum talk of any kind"

Honestly the way that most Haitian political leaders view DR is like this. Haiti doesn't feel threatened by DR at all for the fact that most Haitians knows that they can take over DR any day any time if they ever had to. I used to be upset when I see messed up stuff like that in the news and what they are saying until i had knowledge of the real plan.

Should the Wolf be threatened by the Sheep if the Sheep is behaving belligerently?

As long the wolf knows that it is the predator and he knows that sheep is the prey then the sheep can do and say whatever it wants.

"Honestly the way that most Haitian political leaders view DR is like this. Haiti doesn't feel threatened by DR at all for the fact that most Haitians knows that they can take over DR any day any time if they ever had to. I used to be upset when I see messed up stuff like that in the news and what they are saying until i had knowledge of the real plan."

Are you kidding me, mr. rom? Only in trying to subdue the gangs of Guachupita, Gualey, Capotillo, Los Minas and the other barrios on the shores of the rivers Ozama and Isabela they'd have enough on their hands to be afraid for a dozen lifetimes (even the people in the armed forces, with all their firepower, dare not intrude on those barrios at the best of times), heck, I'd wager that they're capable of even giving the MINUSTAH a run for their money. If you haven't noticed yet, the DR is the one being portrayed as commiting acts of viciousness being the haitians "hunter" and "slaver" on the world media, not the other way around. LMAO

What the hell is going on here. Lautaro maybe we should put the haitian thugs and dominican thugs together. I remember getting lost around no mine land when i didn't know santo domingo well. I called a dominican friend of mine and told him how to get me back. I described where i was and he screamed..tu esta loco..que...sigue manejando...no pares...jajajja..Make it worse i still had haitian plates on my 4runner. Ok, just made me had a flash back...Listen can we have a concert at the frontier already...let's see which band plays the best..that's the only battle im ready for...yawning..haitien ki caca nap pale la..pa di bagay konsa..li pa fe sens. Listen Lautaro can you please talk about the border line moving back and forth...didn't the USA made both countries come to an agreement and when Trujillo went to the border to see both people living in harmony started the infamous massacre..elaborate..please..

No, mr. jabao, the americans "conveniently" left that matter to be solved by the two countries. The negotiations were pretty advanced during the Vazquez administration when suddenly Trujillo made his electoral coup and halted all the proceedings. Trujillo and his cronies wanted to have the entire Plateau Central, claimming the borders given by the treaty of Aranjuez of 1777 between France and Spain. As expected, the haitian authorities gave a flat and outright negative to the matter, saying that the right of conquest and bigger population gave them the right to posess what they already had and more. As you can imagine, Trujillo didn't take too kindly to a shortening of his domain, so that's one of the reasons that would motivate his bloody vendetta against the haitian peasantry on the border, the other one being his greed for their cattle, lands and other property, and also, to teach his own people the lenghts that he could go to obtain what he craved. That sums the matter up.

Do you people honestly think that DR can take Haiti in an all out war.
I used to think that DR had something up their sleeves looking at the news and stuff but when I spent a few months in Haiti I saw that my Haitian people still got it.

1st) DR is getting too modernize they are not ready for a Medieval style battle DR will make the same mistake that the USA is making in Iraq right now which is relying on Equipments and Technologies. As anyone with a military background can tell you its not the Tanks or Air planes that wins battles. Guts my friend Guts and DR and its people doesn't have the guts. and the ones that do have the guts to fight are descendants of Haiti.

Logically the very first mistake the DR will make before that battle will be to persecute the Haitians and their descendants living in DR. With that they would lose their best fighters the Dark skinned Dominicans which is a cool 65% of the Dominican armed forces.

2nd) Top Secret ) I"LL NEVER TELL.

3rd) Psychologically. DR will lose we still have the mystical aura of Voodooism which the DR people are still and always will be afraid of.

Imagine in the beginning of that battle a few public sacrifices of a DR soldier will be psychologically engraved into the rest of the DR soldiers minds that alone will make some soldiers go AWOL.
It would be something like this if DR captured a Haitian Soldier that soldier would most likely die
If HT captured a DR soldier that soldier would be sacrificed run that on YOU TUBE for a few days guaranteed that their numbers would drop. again in favor of the Haitian Army.

4th) It would cost DR more money than they have to start the war alone not even winning the war but just to start it because I'm sure DR is not yet over their fantasy of occupying Haiti.DR CAN"T AFFORD A WAR WITH US Now Haiti on the other hand would just give DR the usual beat down and go home and call over some hot DR mamacitas after wards and have a party.

And here I thought that stupidity, ignorance, and to some extent self-hate, were limited to some redneck people of the dominican diaspora lurking over here (you all know who they are). Guess that there will be always something new to learn under the sun everyday. As the saying goes: "Hay de todo en la viña del Señor". Mr. rom, a question: why are you looking for more bickering when people over here (myself included) are up to their necks quenching the fires made by some ignorant and careless lot with their flag waving? It's good to remember our heroes and where we came from time to time, but not if this flag waving gets in the way of getting the ship to port. As I told somewhere on this site, I see this island as a ship, which will not sail to its fullest potential until the crews stop all this senseless infighting among themselves.

Rom1804......I dont know if I should ......You know what...just forget it.

Room1804: Are you Drunked??????

Let us talk about your so called "Silent Invasion" Rubirosa. Tell me why then, that given Haiti's of economy and pro-activeness as you have stated, that Dominican still this day are cross over into Haiti to prostitute themselves as well as why they are all over Cap-Haitien and Labadee with shops given your assumable knowledge that the Dominican is so prosperous economically? However, I must agree with only on that statement that "Haiti, its government and people need to fix things up. That has been your and the only smart statement yet since I have been observing this blog.
Lautaro, your time frame is slightly wrong or please maybe I might need you to give me a link as to where you have done your research so that we can compare notes. However, my arguments is not based on territorial ownership per say, but more so on the relativeness of History that the Island as a whole have to may have been or being able to do more and better to co-exist.

uh oh..Rubi has gone mad!!!

Well I'm just trying to be the Rubi of Haiti that's all we can't all be against Rubi. I understand where Rubi is coming from most of the time. I need people like Rubi and Rubi needs people like me. I just love WAR. To me it doesn't matter who wins or losses all that matters to me is that I had the chance to be a part of it. Doesn't matter if its USA vs Middle East, Israel Vs Palestine. Haiti Vs DR as long I'm alive to see it and take part of it I'm good to go. Yes I've been to Iraq (Twice) and I loved every moment of it. I can't wait to go back again. Although I would love to see HT Vs. DR with the USA playing referee I would prefer to see Colombia Vs. Venezuela with USA invisibly in the background for Colombia and Iran invisibly in the background for Venezuela oh! man that like a wet dream comes true. You might think I'm crazy but unfortunately our world is retarded like that. Sad, but true. I do wish & hope for a better world but in reality my wishes had already been CHECKMATE.

The world knows Haiti has problems and Haiti has done terrible things to them in THE PAST. The country is slowly getting better. Haiti hasn't been a great neighbor because the internal conflict often affects the DR however the DR has always been a bad neighbor by insulting, degrading, demonizing, and bullying Haiti, which happened in the past (1937 massacre for example), the present (financing rebels to overthrow Haiti's gov't and the many injustices that occur daily against Haitians), and most likely the near future. A poor migrant in the DR will usually choose DR than Haiti because they can at least live a little better than back home but don't mistake that choice as them loving the DR because most hate it, due to the abuse and the discrimination and hatred they receive all the time. And by the way they are a lot of Dominicans in Haiti as well. The reverse migration is defintly not as much as from west to east but nonetheless Haiti is full of Dominican prostitutes and some

TO RUBIROSA: I meant to say "given Haiti's lack of economy and lack of pro-activeness" as you have stated... "Silent Invasion" Rubirosa, lol?

Tell me why then, that given Haiti's lack of economy and pro-activeness as you have stated, Dominicans still this day are cross over into Haiti to prostitute themselves as well as why they are all over Cap-Haitien and Labadee with shops given your assumable knowledge that the Dominican is so more prosperous economically? Why lowering and result yourself to prostitution or other trades into a Country like Haiti of which you claim to be beneath you in all the aspect of which you have described? Should Haiti call this as well an Invasion? You get my drift...

That is like exploiting or stealing from a homeless person or someone with way less than you but you do it anyway simply because of prejudice you may have toward that poor person or that bum in the street. However, I must agree with you only on that one statement that yes inde

(cont) Dominicans are actually in Haiti because they find lucrative job opportunities. Petionville has many (estimates say about 10 to 20,000). Yes the DR is advancing no doubt about that but you have to give Haiti a chance and help instead of hurt. Many Dominicans for some reason want to see their neighbors remain where they are economically yet they complain when something bad happens in Haiti. They'll never realize that a prosperous Haiti will only make DR more prosperous. There is no silent invasion. Haitians are starting to speak up in DR because they demand their human rights which are often not respected at all. Many Dominicans do not acknowledge the great benefit that many Haitian migrants play in the industry sector of the Dominican economy. Yes people..cheap labor is a benefit whether you deny it or not. The metro for example would of never have been built as fast as it did without many of the Haitians that played a part in its construction. The metro is a Dominican project

(cont) and Haitians are not trying to claim it as their work but to be fair and honest, Haitians did play a role in its development. So these patriotic Rubirosites should shut their trap and stop their whining on the silent invasion and open their clouded eyes to reality whether Duarte would've liked it or not. Hispaniola (Ayiti, Quisqueya, Bohio) is made up of the Republic of Haiti and the Dominican Republic. It belongs to both nations and for it to prosper, the infighting must end.

TO RUBIROSA AGAIN:

However, I must agree with you only on that one statement that yes indeed "Haiti, its government and people must and need to fix things up". By the by, that has been your and "the only" smart statement yet since I have been observing this blog that does not appear to be too radically racist and extremist of you; but hey, I suppose you are entitled to your views and opinion. Otherwise this blog would not have had this constant spice in debate lol. In some weird way and suffice enough to say, this blog actually do need your ignorance and lack of intellect to show how most Dominicans view Haiti. But I am sure I will not let your pervasive divisive prejudice mentality to depict the views of all Dominicans. I know personally some Dominicans that are great people and perhaps greater than some Haitians that i know in terms of compassion. To stress or prove to you all, not every Dominicans think like RUBIROSA.

Well, mr. rom, it's so sad to see that Mugabe is finally rubbing his hatred on you (I'm assuming that you're writing from Zimbabwe, formerly Rhodesia or whatever), maybe you need to get out from that war torn place, as it is still smarting with wounds from their racial wars.

As for the data, mr. Hispanolano, you can read "La Republique d'Haiti et La Republique Dominicaine" from the haitian historian Jean Price Mars. There you can read about the time frame of Toussaint's rise to power, which tells us that, although Spain ceded the eastern part of the island to France on 1795, it could not properly take posession of the colony until 1801 (as Toussaint was busy fighting the british during 1794-1798 and then came the war against Rigaud and the mulattos on 1799-1800).

Haitians need to drink "Prozac", instead of waisting Your few brain cells alive why you guys don't try to achieve something positive and productive.

Guess is easy to cry loud to the rest of the countries for handouts and help and being lazy at the same time.

500 years from now it will still be the same sad story on the media coverage:
"Haiti is falling apart" and "Haitians want the UN to assist their people"

HAYkickyouintheSHIN ,

By all means, I totally agreed with you on that. I know of the Metro Project, and you are right on the money about the things you said that need to be done for a prosperous HISPANIOLA / HISPANOLA.
Good or bad today, we perhaps would have had a totally different, Dominican Republic, Columbia, Venezuela, Ecuador and even a United States, Louisiana, Georgia and Chicago had there not been a Haiti.
Hooray!!! People, this is the best motivated impartial peaceful statement yet on this blog and THE DOMINICANTODAY.COM BLOG AWARD goes to HAYkickyouintheSHIN.

Thank you!!!

Amidst the strong vulgarity and negativity of Rubirosa's Statement above which I find quite alarming and condescending. I suppose what he is really trying to say and perhaps lacks the skills to do so appropriately and educatedly is that: The one assurable way for Haiti toward self respect and proper recognition in the world is to try to become more self-sufficient in doing their best to improve economically, politically thus would eventually and adjustably improve socially.

HispanolanoyoSoy: how are you achieving all these "illussions" according to your smart opinions???

I'm just "Forrest gump" and very humble too.

I find his inability to state so simple an idea as that quite disturbing, mr. Hispanolano. As such, it would be a wonder if you don't end up losing your patience with his angry vitriol within a week.

room1804: Very "Biased" comments, Question???

what about countries like Spain,Japan, and Germany which are the biggest money pouring countries "TRUST" our goverment, means and know We will manage resources in the right way.

Your comments are separating reality from fantasy, main reason that you don't see the same
scenario in your country is because You guys haven't achieve political and management goals so european countries don't invest in Haiti.

Regarding the bottom part of Your comments about my family shows why Haitians like You will never grow class and education.

The Haitian Government was unable to move with diligence in addressing some of the fundamental problems like the Haitian economy.T he goverment was busy, debating the issue of double nationality of some senators. Their policies have not kept in touch to the ensuing high price of food In a situation where the world ship is going into rough waters, a minimum of cooperation, solidarity, diligence and good governance is essential to keep the boat from sinking

i agree with kulu55.

Room1804: once again "creepy comments from low life people"

This Forum is HOT and about to explode. JRRubirosa and room1804 are throwing grenades at each other. Only the Americans can put a stop to this war, but we are not going to do that because we like selling our weapons to your guys and sit back and watch your guys kill yourselves.

Why can't we act civilized on this forum. DR and Haitis suffer from the similar issues, discriminations, lack of opportunity, AIDS, lack of water, lack of education, no healthcare, hunger, prostituition, low wages, labor exploitations, these are all symptons of third world countries. However, the difference maybe in the degree at which both nations have it. At this point in time, I must say Haiti is exposed to more of the issues highlighted above.

The DR and Haiti are two independent nations on one island. The east is DR and the west is Haiti. That's it. For those who talk about a Haitian takeover, it will never happen. I'm sure some Haitians would enjoy that but that will never happen. Dominicans will never allowed that to happen.

DR is on the rise ableit with a long way to go but the country is definitely moving forward. Haiti is moving along in the right path as well. Let's just hope Haiti can continue it's success along with the pace of DR. NO need to offend.

DR is DR and HT and HT ! Two separate countries on one island. Better cooperation is on the way for the greater good of Hispanola. Sak pase ? and Como tu ta? It gets no better. That's the way it should be. Be proud of that. Dominicans Stand up and Haitians be proud.

You are absolutely RIGHT JHONUSA that's what I've been trying to tell that (RUBI) all along the white man has been profiting from our quarrels ever since that (SANTANA) decided to back stab the Haitians by declaring DR's independence.

As for you NY4LIFE it does matter if one is saying Sak Pasé or Como tu ta?
Sak Pase is the language that honors all races since Kréyol is a potpourri of all the dominant languages at that time including the Native Americans (Tainos etc..) meanwhile Como tu ta is simply the language of our past oppressors. See the difference I would rather speak Kreyol than Espanol any day. If the Dominicans were not so racist they could have met us half way by learning Kreyol. One language would had bring the 2 nations closer. Kreyol was the neutral language that's why our past leaders was forcing DR to speak Kreyol. If Santana hadn't betrayed us by this time the whole Carribean would have been OURS and speaking OUR LANGUAGE.

It makes me sad every time I think of what we could have been today together if Santana had not betrayed us if the 2 nations ddint split the Kreyol was so strong back then it is still spoken and most of the little islands today hell it's still alive today down in Lousiana although their creole is a little different from us but at least the have the idea. and you Dominicans ruined that plan. It's not selfishness that made Santana do it because one nation would have benefited both nations, it wasn't even greed because together we were already the richest and could only be richer it was pure psychotic racism that's what it was and till this day you people are still blinded by it RUBI.

In regard to "Dominican politician 'Federico Antun Batlle's statement that Haitians are the ones to blame for the problems they face in DR", my Haitian parents always say "it is not every dog that balk that pay attention to", I have the highest respect of many Dominicans; however, anytime something goes wrong in DR, a small minority of Dominicans continue to use Haitians as scapegoat to pacify their people and continue to use the same old and tired hatred politic of the past to promote themselves. So, if any Dominican politician continues to take the low road and the backward politic of the Assassin Balager, because it worked for them before, then it is up to the more educated Dominican of this generation to repudiate the tired and old politic of the past and move forward into the future. We Haitians have long moved forward, despite the butchering of 50,000 Haitians by the Balager regime 70 years ago, we continue to look and see the people of the DR as brothers and sisters.

What the hell is going on in here? The majority of you idiots(dominican & haitians) alike have no idea what you are ranting about. Rubi, you have some people on your level to equally spew diatribes. Seriously, what are you people talking about.

The economist Carlo Cipolla was right, mr. jabao, stupidity is really a very contagious disease, indeed. Instead of crossing swords, these people should be discussing possible solutions to the island's ailments, but I guess they lack the necessary brain material and restraint to accomplish even a small thing as a cessation of hostilites.

Room1804: Do You forget that We have different cultures???

French and Spanish......

I do love my "Spanish" heritage a lot............

Room1804: Do You forget that We have different cultures??? French and Spanish......
I do love my "Spanish" heritage a lot....

NONSENSE DUDE.... Reject the Spanish Heritage, Reject the French, what do you get ? KREYOL BABY and that's what we should be doing working towards one identity. but you people saw only that we were invading your country, invading your country we don't want to invade DR. DR is already home. We want to invade other islands as one Haiti and DR that was Toussaint & Dessaline's vision was but the Dominicans never see it that way. Haiti wanted more power and we couldn't do it without DR.
DR is fruitful at the moment but it wont get far without Haiti in this day in age just like when Haiti was on top we couldn't get far without DR and I think some of your leaders are starting to see that now. Imagine if they had realized that a few centuries ago we had the whole AMERICAS within an arm reach. I will never forget the DR for blowing our chance of being a Super Power

rom1804, for get about the past bro. What's done is done. Get over it!!!!! Stop living in the past because it will only make you bitter. Talk about the future and how DR is making strides day by day to help Haiti. THey are working together for the greater good. THere is nothing you can do about the past.

Also, Kreyol or creole, like you state as being a language not influenced by the european invaders does actually derive from them. Kreyol or creole is a dialect of a language. In Haiti's case, it's a dialect of French so you are still influenced by the French invaders through your native tongue. You can't deny that. You probably didn't know that the French kreyol Haitians speak derives from the French language from the European invaders. In either case, both sides of the island have been impacted by the european settlers or invaders.

Kreyol is a French-based language that also has considerable African based influence along with some influence from Spanish and the native Taino. In fact Haiti's culture can be described as the prior sentence verbatim (replacing "language" with "culture"). Kreyol is similar to French however they are not at all the same and it is an entirely different language within its sphere. A fluent Frenchman from Paris most likely would have no idea whatsoever what a Haitian would be saying in Kreyol (unless he enunciated his words slow enough and carefully).

You see rom1804, thats where you are wrong. Unlike those European and American imperialists, Toussaint did not want to conquer any land than that of Hispaniola. In the constitution of 1804 there is a an article that forbids the Haitian nation from gaining any territory off of the island of Hispaniola. Please dont go around throwing dirt like that on our country....Its dirty enough as it is. secondly if Haitians drops that French culture you are talking about, then there would be no Kreyol and no Alexande Petion, no Jean-Jacques Dessaline, no charlemagne Peralte, and no Haiti. Haiti is forever conneceted to French culture weather we like it or not. Sil vous plait mon cher pa pale konsa.

..Rubirosity is really contagious, lol.

While Dominicans may not be respecting Haitians, they can not say they do not depend on Haitians to survive, they can deny it all they want. Meanwhile Haitians are ranting, asking about equality when they do not even have such a thing in their own country.

Both nations have allowed race and color to be the catalyst of their differences. Any culture either nations have is rooted back from Africa more so than any other possible influences. What most Dominicans find hard to swallow and accept as they deny each day, but truth be told that the Dominican culture is a borrowed culture much like America does not have an originality in culture but all that is culturally great about America has been thankfully due to combined immigrant influences. The Arts in DR are HAITIAN arts called (Artisana) they adopted.

FACT: Much of what is in DR's culture is Haitian oriented yet later altered in hope to be differentiated, otherwise it surely is not Spain nor much prior Taino natives at all

To all, who have my respect(ny4life,JabaoHaitian,Lautaro) please don’t engage these “people”
better yet, I bet; we could put our heads together, and find some sort of amicable solution.
We could sign up “Jr stupid rosa”, “rom 187” and JohnUSA “the couch potato conquer” to fight it out, and broadcast it live in the USA, Haiti and the DR. All the proceeds would be donated to charity. (Sighs) Besides the people that I mentioned above(ny4life,JabaoHaitian,Lautaro), nobody has offered any kind of an objective argument. This is not a debate; it’s stupidity in it’s purest form.

How could the dominican arts and culture be borrowed from the haitians when the timespan of the dominican people on the island has been longer than that of the haitians, mr. Hispanolano? and before you deny it, you have to remember that the genesis of the haitian nation must be set on two dates: 1- The year the french established the colony of Saint Domingue (circa 1661) and 2- The year when the french decided to copy the plantation system existing Jamaica, which used african slave labour (circa 1710), which ran counter to the system that the french colony held until that year, that is, they used to cultivate tobacco using european labour (or engagés) and to hunt the wild herd that until then existed on the island's interior. On the jamaican system, the main crops would be sugar, coffee, cocoa and indigo; the tobacco would be dropped due to the restrictions put in place against this crop on Europe and that the benefits of it were not as rapidly gained as with the aforementioned crops.

FrankTecato-Tanquedeagua: Very elocuent and positive statement about me.

Keep the good work Mr.Decency...................

HispanolianoYoSoy: You have lack of personality, trying to imply that Dominicans copied anything from Haitians is a "Mental fantasy"

Compare both countries and see who's been in a better position, so How can We ever copy anything from You.

We have never follow bad examples....................

IF You truly believe that You are better than us How come You still living in the past???

Most of the arts in the Dominican Republic are mimicked imported influential Art is because their arts, one would say, was imposed upon them. Art pieces like Spanish "Santo Dominicus" or "Saint Dominicus" were all arts Spain.

However those Spanish arts are not the arts being sold to tourist in the streets of the Dominican Republic anywhere. Besides, who can afford them anyway since they are all conserved spanish monumental properties and they are kept in Meseums all over Europe. The selling of Beach local painting was introduced in the Dominican Republic when Haitian Artist migrants fled there because in Haiti the Old Dictator Regime considered those arts to have been a direct political expression of the mass when tourism started to decline there.

FACT: Major stars like Michael Jackson, Madonna and Leonardo DeCaprio and more. Ask many great Stars all over the world where do they get the Arts pieces and paintings hanging on their walls they would say they got it from Hai

I agree with you 100% mr. Frank. At the beginning, this "battlezone" was entertaining to watch, because one could learn the lenghts to which these people (a.k.a the haters) can go in their stupidity, but then, after a day or two, it gets too tiresome to keep up with this.

HispanolanoYosoy: You going places.....................HA HA HA


Guess you know very well all these people right????

All that this thread tells me is that there are serious misconceptions, historical and otherwise, held by both Haitians and Dominicans with respect to each other. Just to think that somehow DR's independence prevented Haiti from somehow becoming a "super power" is the most ridiculous take I've seen on the issue in some time. I'm sorry that's how I honestly feel. Then for someone to assume, and state it as fact, that Dominican culture is somehow a thinly veiled and distorted version of Haitian culture is ridiculous. Though they share certain affinities I think it's safe to say that Haitian and Dominican culture are distinct from each other. Then we have internet militants who are waging the dominican war for independance all over again on these forums. Psst. News flash. The Dominicans won and have secured their independence. It's safe to put those arms weilded against the haitians down now. Plenty of attacks and assumptions. No dialogue though.

Wrong.

The start of African Slaves into the Caribbean, principally Haiti or Hispaniola, began by the Spaniards after or when the Spanish had killed closed to an extinct point all the Natif Natal (Indigenous Natives thus the Indians) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus which was why they had to go get Black slaves. The French came after the Sapnish did and continued the very same practice, you imbecile. So which of which of the two is something to be proud of; the doings of the Spanish or that of the French? The Europeans are the division. Not Dominicans or Haitians. It is a darn shame Dominicans do not even know History, but erasing it.

That Dominican part of myself is what I do not take much pride into when I see stupidity and nonsense coming out of their made belief mind. So let us talk fantasia tu idota tan eres un imbecil... Los Dominicanos tienen una mentalidad y el pensamiento de conquistador español. Diablo, es porque mi madre nunca se quedó al

I wasn't talking about the start of African slavery, what I was talking about was about the start of Haiti's formation as a national entity (linguistically, culturally, and geographically), which are two entirely different things. I said that Haiti's formation as a national entity began when Bertrand D'Ogeron established the colony of Saint Domingue in the name of the French Crown on 1661, and this is a well known fact. And please, let's not use names with each other. On a side note (mocking tone): se dice "tú idiota eres un imbecil". Si quieres tener una discusión en español conmigo, mi pana, créeme cuando te digo que tendrás que buscar mejores cosas que decir, ya que como estan las cosas, hasta un limpiabotas podría suapear el piso contigo. Capisch? LOL

Another Wiki scholar….. How sad

Not only another wiki scholar, mr. Frank, but a mediocre one at that. At least DT's resident wiki scholar (Belial) is pretty colourful on his explanations of the wiki stuff (I enjoy it inmensely specially when he rants about the evil schemes of the imperialist running dogs, water carriers and all that). LOL

CIBAENO: You are correct. There are a lot of nonsense that either sides have created to show more how they are different than they do to show how at least similar in Culture they both are. I mean The Dominicans are using the fact of an economically deteriorating conditions of a now impoverish country (among other problems that is stopping progression in that Country) to show that they are better when they, too, faced and are still facing the very same aspects just only in a now lesser dose given the economical growth the Dominican Republic has recently gained not so long ago which was really in 2004. You are so right man, lack of dialogue and way too much stupidity like I said earlier.

Many historians consider the pirate base on tortuga island in the early 1600s as the seed of the haitian state. A good argument can be made for this conclusion.

HAITI's formation as a Country is mysteriously phenomenal which is one thing none of many of you whether it is a Dominican, Haitian or other foreign Countries will not want to give credit to or even embrace. I call myself Hispanolano or perhaps I should have used Ayitiano, Quesqueyano or Bohioano since those were the original names of the Island; but I do so because amidts or given all the negativities and resentments that exist between the two's. They depend on each otehr for survival. So nonetheless, I am Dominican-Haitian-Jewish in case many of you have noticed I say "THEY" more so I ever say "WE" because there is ignorance coming from either sides of the aisle. That is the Dominican and Haitian part of myself I do not take much pride into when I see stupidity and nonsense coming out of their made belief mind. Las dos pais tienen una mentalidad y el pensamiento de conquistador español mezcla con una mentalidad de esclavo. Diablo, es porque mi madre nunca se quedó alli.

I never taught I would say this; but I can now appreciate belial, and his wild ranting. This is bad. LOL
HispanolanoYoSoy, http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2007/wp0763.pdf read up! know it’s not Wiki but give it a try

Let me ask all of you some things. I see many of you on here have criticized Wikipedia as though it is a bad tool for research. From now on, how and what about start posting along with your comments links and references with substantial materials as have asked by the creator of this blog to begin with?

Yes, although Wikipedia might be a tool established by what people so called "The Man's Education" as though to indicate the "now-still oppression and teaching" of the White man or Europeans at a higher tactic... however say what you will, it is by far more accurate facts and impartial than the ignorance many of you are contributing to the issues at hand for both Nations.

At least respect more those who actually use it versus those who do not and do not even conduct any kind of thorough reading research to even post any links as to where they have gathered their informations from. I welcome and value those who include links to back anything they have to say even if their materials are written by someone of their peers.

So, where do most of you get your stuffs from? I have read both Nations' national book that they used to teach the kids in school. No where in either books does it shows such extreme bashing of misconstrued bias and views.

FRANKYTANK: Thank you so much for giving me this link. I appreciate it. So have you read all of it?

"From now on, how and what about start posting along with your comments links and references with substantial materials "

Some individuals have been doing this for some time now. I'm not trying to antagonize you Hispanolano, but realize that even though some wikipedia articles are indeed scholarly works wikipedia articles can be written and edited by anyone and as such it casts a doubt over the whole enterprise. As I stated in a previous post no college professor here in the Sates, or anywhere for that matter, would except a peper were wikipedia features prominently in the bibliography precisely for the reason I mentioned.

I have a serious migraine reading this stuff. I have seen it all. Crazy haitians & dominicans that are so confused and have no concept of historical events which distorts the present and future. I don't know if I should laugh at the ignorance or should I cry for the lack of common sense between the two countries. It is a fact that foreignors have better insight than the habitants of the island. Sad but true. I can't even type anything regarding these comments. Where do you begin? One thing it appears the respected haitians & dominicans with a an objective opinion are becoming a minority here.

Well, mr. Hispanolano, why don't you try reading these books:

On the DR´s case, you can check out the following:

1- Moya Pons, Frank ."The Dominican Republic: A National History" (Hispaniola Books: New Rochelle, NY, 1995)"
2- Roberto Cassa, Los doce años: Contrarevolución y desarrollismo, 2nd ed. Santo Domingo: Editora Buho 1991
3- Bosch, Juan. "De Cristóbal Colón a Fidel Castro". Editora Taller. Santo Domingo, 2006.
4- Bosch, Juan. "Pentagonismo, sustituto del imperialismo ". ibidem.
5- Bosch, Juan. "La guerra de la Restauración en Santo Domingo". ibidem.
6- Bosch, Juan. "Capitalismo tardío en la República Dominicana". ibidem.

FROM THE ABSTRACT http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2007/wp0763.pdf itself it says and I quote:

"The Dominican Republic and Haiti share the island of Hispaniola and are broadly similar in terms of geography and historical institutions, yet their growth performance has diverged remarkably. The countries had the same per capita real GDP in 1960 but, by 2005, the Dominican Republic’s per capita real GDP had tripled whereas that of Haiti had halved."

Not at all far from what I have stated about DR's economical gain.

On Haiti's case:

1- Price-Mars, Jean. "La République d'Haïti et la République Dominicaine (1953)". Sociedad Dominicana de Bibliófilos. Santo Domingo, 2006.

2- James, C.L.R. (1989). The Black Jacobins. Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution. (2nd Ed., Revised) New York: Vintage Press. ISBN 0-679-72467-2.

3- Dubois, Laurent. "Avengers of the New World: The Story of the Haitian Revolution" The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. Cambridge, MA. 2004. ISBN 0-674-01304-2

4- Parkinson, Warden. "This Gilded African". Quartet Books. London. 1978

5- Davis, H.P. "Black Democracy: The Story of Haiti". Lincoln Mac Veagh, The Dial Press. Toronto. 1928

6- Plummer, Brenda Gayle. "Haiti and The United States: The Psychological Moment". The University of Georgia Press. Athens, Georgia. 1992. ISBN 0-8203-1423-4

"Crazy haitians & dominicans that are so confused and have no concept of historical events which distorts the present and future. "

I agree with you 100%.

HispanolanoYoSoy, look at some of econ models and u will get ur answer.
JabaoHaitian, couldn't have said better myself.

FURTHRE MORE and I quote: "The Drawing on the growth literature, the paper explains this divergence through a combined approach that includes a panel regression to study growth determinants across a broad group of countries, and a case study framework to better understand the specific policy decisions and external conditions that have shaped economic outcomes in the Dominican Republic and Haiti. The paper finds that initial conditions cannot fully explain the growth divergence, but rather policy decisions have played a central role in the growth trends of the two countries."

I will read your reference, believe me. However, you should not want to subject people to read materials that you feel only is worthy of reading if you will not be willing to accept theirs.

"1- Moya Pons, Frank ."The Dominican Republic: A National History" (Hispaniola Books: New Rochelle, NY, 1995)""

Though it had some merit I disliked this book. To much revisionism on Moya Pons' part (in some parts of the book it's obvious that the man had a political agenda, something no great historian should have reflected in their work) and not enough information in my opinion. I still feel that the great historical work on the Dominican Republic has yet to be written.

Wikipedia, is a running joke in the academic world: I’m sorry! but it is.

The most common "crime" that Moya Pons has been accused of is of having a pro-capitalist, pro-US agenda. While Cassa's "crime" has been of having marxist views.

FRANKTHETANK: Like I said thus far, my stance on the issues have been to help get both people to realize their common grounds, but there will always be bias and prejudices steams from old bitter resentments that both nations hold against one another. Your reference has in no way shape or form bash neither sides. If anything it has, as best as they possibly could, shown the differences on an ecological and economical stand point. If there is one thing we both can agree on is that this reference have shown even further how alike both nations are to certain existing institutions both culturally and historically.

So why have you waited so long to keep posting this link to the ignorant Haitians and Dominicans uneducated buffoons on here lol? Once again, thank you for your link. Let us see how many of them will actually read it and come back with more positive substantial things to say. No, instead they both stuck on minor misconceptions and neither ones will compromise halfway.

Thank you for the link as well Frank...and do not lose hope people. There were very few people, including some of those who post on here regularly, who were more anti-haitian than I was at a certain point in my life. If I managed to put archaic and harmful perceptions behind me I think all are capable of doing the same.

HispanolanoYoSoy, we have had many educated exchanges on this forum u are relatively new to this board and internal politics that have become very evident to you this is not a war. Here some of the discussions.

http://www2.dominicantoday.com/dr....ain-conflict-with-Haiti-Dominican

http://www2.dominicantoday.com/dr....-a-lie-Electoral-court-chief-says

http://www2.dominicantoday.com/dr....-without-trees-as-efforts-to-halt

CIBAENO: Although you may be right by indicating that this resource lacks information; but that is the whole point of self educating one's self. You do not stop here if you feel there are more to learn. Go out there, conduct research and bring other books on the table and know that just because it is a written book does not mean it can not be favorably bias, partial or even misleading.

I may give you references that many may find inconsistent and you may give me yours and so on... that many may not wish or be prone to accept, believe even if it was for mere argument's sake of a debate. so where the line is drawn is anybody's guess.

I feel good about today's forum because we have reach a common understanding and I hope it continues to be positive and let us stop the blaming game. We all know in light of any economical challenges for any country may face, social differences and challenges arise in effort to shift blames which is understandably no more than what it is referred to as a basic human reaction emotion called PANIC.

I just wish as a both Dominican-Haitian individual that I am I could be proud to say one day that both of my people and what I am are the best of worlds one can ever wish to be a part of.

In retrospect to the lack of respect that many may have toward creole (Kreyol), I have this to say: When and where in the history of any civilizations in this known World has it taken a civilization less than 100 years to invent a language much less to have had any expectations that this new language would have come from an only third generation group of slaves? Now tell me if that is not phenomenal.
Like it, accept and deny it or not, as I have once said before, without any doubts that perhaps there would have been a different kind of Dominican Republic, if at all, and indeed a different kind of USA to include Louisiana, Georgia and Chicago as well as would it be so for Venezuela, Columbia and Ecuador had there not ever been a Haiti and it is quite understandable if anyone would fear this.

A RESOURCEFUL TOOL FOR RESEARCH ON HAITIAN ARTS: http://www.discoverhaiti.com/artsynop.htm

HAITIAN ART HISTORY: http://www.discoverhaiti.com/artsynop.htm

MORE ON HAITIAN ART: http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/art/pre-1944.htm

ON DOMINICAN ARTS AND HISTORY: http://www.antillania.com/Dominican_Art_History.htm http://www.