Hopefully We don't get blamed again for actions not to be held accountable by the Dominican Republic.

I have seen them myself in santiago,sto domingo ,moca,and other part of the country. Have they no shame?

Carbelk99: is easy and better to blame the Dominican Goverment and the Dominican people for being racist instead of the Haitian goverment taking responsability of this issue.

I haven' see yet a "Miligram" of accountability, honor or respect for civilization or progress and this is what annoys me a lot about everybody (Haiti and international community).

Since the easy way out is us, them We get the heat on our side of the island and also all kinds of never ending blames, derogatory terms and non sense kind of unwanted attention from the rest of the planet.

Like We are the ones that destroyed their economy, spread diseases on their side or are controlling their "Childish goverment".

Hopefully one day the UN do something proactive about it and maybe They can correct their mistakes and narrow minded decicions.

You know every time I see a headline that start with "Haitian humanitarian and human rights organizations" are always going to come up with this type of nonsense, by the way who wrote this article?, it seen like an attempt to incite a hatred discussion in this forum. Shame

Okay, as Dominicans I suppose it would be best to pretend and say those things are not really happening in DR. Oh, they are all being fabricated, that not even for one minute they could have been true at all. So let me hear all Dominicans say:

Trujillo's Massacre: Never Happened.
Haitian Sugar Cane Cutters: Not At All In DR.
Haitian Discrimination: A Made Up Lie. Haitians and Dominicans live harmoniously in DR.
Haitian Babies Born In DR: All have Dominican Birth Rights like any Dominican Kids born in DR.
Haitian Cheap Labor Workers: Never brought in by Dominican Businesses into DR.
Haitian Profiling: In DR cops do not target Haitians and jail them ever at all.

So let us say Haitians are the prime reasons for everything wrong and negative in DR and that Dominicans are saints, with no hatred and racism with great humanitarian humane hearts and are helping their fellow same Island inhabitants. Dominicans are "Thees without sins, therefore may cast all the first stones

HispanolanoYosoy: You have no personality and Your comments are base on "Senseless" allegations, You lack character and point of views.

Personality I do not have huh... Sure I don't, Rubi, sure.
Character I lack huh... Sure I do, Rubi, sure.
Senseless eh? Much worse, allegation huh?
Right, sure Rubi, sure.

Hey everybody!
Let us give Rubi some personality, better yet, let us show him ours.
From now on; Rubirosa is SureRubiSure = Al Be Sure lol!!!

Speaking of point of you, so Rubi, let us see you say:

Trujillo's Haitian and Black Dominicans Massacre: Never Happened.
Las Mariposas: Maribel who?
Haitian Sugar Cane Cutters: Not At All In DR.
Haitian Discrimination: A Made Up Lie. Haitians and Dominicans live harmoniously in DR.
Haitian Babies Born In DR: All have Dominican Birth Rights like any Dominican Kids born in DR.
Haitian Cheap Labor Workers: Never brought in by Dominican Businesses into DR.
Haitian Profiling: In DR cops do not target Haitians and jail them ever at all.

On to other topics that have nothing to do with the Haitian -Dominican conflict which will never end. So in Rubi's (SureRubiSure= Al Be sure) term, let us hope those topics are with more personality and character or point of views that may very well be senseless allegations lol. Here are some clips people let me know what you all think okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRlDlAkonJU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89SB59DT34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3avVyf1OMjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LEljS3ib84

With all due respect, because I understand that we have a few Haitians on this site...but is it really THAT difficult to patrol one of the smallest political borders in the world from the Haitian side.

It's just unconscionable that the Haitian government would abdicate the policing of its side of the border and then have their citizens subjected to these conditions in the D.R. But I can see that same philosophy that operates in Mexico City regarding wetbacks, also operates in Port-au-Prince.

To SureRubiSure: To solve the problem, I suppose you just want the opportunity to go around and ask every Haitians to say "Perejil". Well, you still could. Go ahead and profit from this time now to do so. Perhaps you could go back to DR, join the Dominican Army and start on your Haitian Rampage already to satisfy or put your passionate Hatred and racism toward the Haitian at ease. You can always do that, and while you are at it; scream Hail Hitler as well. Go ahead.

MUCHACHO: Perhaps, and I understand what you are trying to convey and the frustration of most on both side. Pero tenemos que dejar de decir lo que ya sabemos de un país que esta atravesando una fase de extrema politico y pueden todo tipo de crisis. Para mantener o aun golpeando mientras se esta abajo es de explotacion y, de hecho, discriminativo en la naturaleza. You do understand what lack of economy means right. It might very well means that they may not have the funds for such a task o proyecto. Entiende?

SEPARATE MATTER: Tell me what you think of these two videos there...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf19L6DjnTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcQtVVpPxjY

I'm trying to convey the anger I feel at the politicians in Haiti that would allow things like these to happen to their own people. Never mind the Dominicans that benefit from it are equally at fault, but it seems to me that if the Haitian politicians made it a priority to make sure their people are not exploited, they would make sure to keep that border on lock down from THEIR side.

However, just like Mexican politicians use the U.S.-Mexico border as a political and economic scape valve, so do the fat cats in Port-au-Prince use the border with the Dominican Republic.

I wonder why Rubi has not commented on the posting I addressed to him at the link below?

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....an-immigrants-prefer-Pennsylvania

MUCHACHO: I personally agree with what you have said about the Haitian Government not keeping up in part of their sovereign duty on the Border Integrity Issue nor showing a strong front in the defense and representation of Haiti's people. Once again though, as it seems right now; Haiti does not have a physical Army. It was disbanded by a recent former President upon his return to power in 1994. Also, yes we have inhumane people benefiting from the illegal trafficking of Haitians on both sides; Haiti and DR.

SUGAR PRODUCTION SLOWS IN DR:
Figures released by the Dominican Sugar Institute (INAZUCAR) today 4/23/08.
http://www.inazucar.gov.do/

The Associated Press: Reveals that during the 2005-2006 sugar production season, DR only produced 490,350 metric tons of sugar, which wasn't enough to cover its own domestic demand or fill of the export quota to the United States this year. This collapse is blamed on a lack of Haitian labor workers with the help of Human Right activists and organizations who have seen the illegality of the working methods and conditions of the Haitians in DR which the Government is denying to address.

XENOPHOBIA: An unreasonable fear, distrust, or hatred of strangers, foreigners, or anything perceived as foreign or different. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples - especially of people of foreign origin.

Someone suffering from xenophobia is having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign filled with total fear or apprehension. Thus in a nut shell, most of the general Dominicans are afraid of Haitians pretty much... (However, I am sure someone will beg to differ in 1... 2... 3...).

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC XENOPHOBIA:

Associated Press/ Red Cross Reports that according to an Amnesty International, the United Nations and The Human Rights Watch, the physical attacks against Haitians have increased since 1992 and reports of the lynching of Haitians surfaced as late as 2006.

Homes of suspected Haitians are sometimes burned to the ground and police roundups of "Haitian looking" people are conducted on a regular basis. According to another New York Times report in 2004, grandchildren and great grandchildren of Haitians are denied birth certificates, medical care, education and social services because of their race and dependancy given the current political and economical challenges in today Haiti.

In 2007 the United Nations and International Human Rights Organizations found "profound and entrenched" racism at all levels of Dominican society, including within families.

QUOTE: Haiti does not have a physical Army.

Neither does Costa Rica, but that doesn't prevent her from patrolling her borders with Nicaragua and Panama.

QUOTE: The Associated Press: Reveals that during the 2005-2006 sugar production season, DR only produced 490,350 metric tons of sugar, which wasn't enough to cover its own domestic demand

Can I get a link to that article?

Haitian food crisis sending refugees to the sea.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080423/wl_nm/haiti_migrants_dc


The entire western Hemisphere should be ashamed of themselves for this crisis.
We all need to roll up our sleeves and help in whatever way we can.

I hate to say it but anyone who is trying to put the Haitians down even further by insulting them bettter take a good look at themselves in the mirror. Shame Shame Shame on you!.

I am not Haitian nor Dominican in this situation we all need to be human beings as God meant it to be.

Sunday, April 13, 2008. Chavez said that Venezuela will send food aid to Haiti to help the impoverished fellow Latin-American Caribbean country cope with rising food prices. (AP Photo/Miraflores Press Office)

"According to another New York Times report in 2004, grandchildren and great grandchildren of Haitians are denied birth certificates, medical care, education and social services because of their race and dependancy given the current political and economical challenges in today Haiti. "

I can accept the fact that the accusations against the dominican state for not issuing birth certificates to people of haitian descent is holding to the truth. However, what I consider to be baseless and outright lies, mr. Hispanolano, are the accusations of not giving health and educational services to them, when those of the New York Times should know that more than 40% of the health budget of the country is being spent on providing assistance to those inmigrants, be it by helping their women to give birth on OUR hospitals, given that the few medical facilities that exist on Haiti are only catering to the wealthy, or giving basic healthcare to them (cont...)

(cont...) and that's saying a lot, considering that those inmigrants, specially the ones which work on the construction sector, tend to be accident-prone most of the time. And, on the educational front, the state implement a law two years ago that allows EVERY child on the country to attend the public schools without the necessity of having a birth certificate. Granted, there were cases like the one of a public school on Eastern Santo Domingo where some school headmasters wanted to infringe the law, but in every case, the state have made them feel all the weight of the law. Now, if private schools don't want to apply the law, that's their business, but the New York Times should know that, if they really want capitalism to remain as the system in the DR, they'll have to swallow the fact that some sectors of society (specially the wealthy owners of private schools) won't cater to their politically correct sensitivities. (cont...)

(Cont) its own actions or behavior.

So why so many people in these blogs instead of making the "Haitian" goverment accountable for their own irreponsability behavior rather place all the negative conclusions towards Dominican Republic.

As long as anybody acknowledge their own faults, recognize that change must be made in order to progress and move on it will be the same old story for centuries to come.

In the meantime Dominican Republic is the only country in the hemisphere carrying with a responsability that is no ours.

Is easy for almost 90% of the opinions here to point their anger and hate against the scapegoat "Dominicans" , but never impling or admitting that if they want improvement for their
own people, it has to be achieve on their country not in ours

Maybe They enjoy being the victim status to the eyes of the international community, The way that I was brought up; anybody with stamina, will and honor and willing to develop a better status; have to go the extra mile and be held accountable for

their own actions and behavior.

(cont...) so you'll have to excuse me if I'm treating the New York Times reports of the state of our health and educational services with nothing more than contempt (in fact I find them to be nothing better than BS), but they have to understand that they can't have it both ways. First, we're a Thirld World Country, and all Thirld World Countries are defined by the fact of having scant resources to dedicate to health and education. Also, we have already 5,000,000 of poor people of our own, so our resources are stretched to thin as things are standing, and third, they can't possibly (or realistically) expect the DR to deal with the social problems of the poorest nation of the western hemisphere on its own, at least not without a thing called HEAVY FINANCIAL SUPPORT, which we're finding sorely lacking on our own problems, and when the balance between our own social problems and political stability is already a precarious one, specially after the 2003 economic crisis.

In fact, I consider that, on the DR's case, the New York Times would do well to keep their mouths shut. After all, they have to remember that it was their country which supported the elites on the April of 1965 civil war (which enters its forty-third anniversary today), and if there's one thing that defines those elites (landlord oligrachies, the Catholic Church and the military) is that there's no love lost between them and the haitians. In fact, had not the US interfered in favor of those aristocratic sectors, we might have a better DR on the present day, or at the very least, a DR with the enormous social and political problems that are our everyday bread on this day greatly diminished. You'll have to excuse me, but today, being reminded of that Civil War, its terrible aftermath (Balaguer's Twelve Year dictatorship) and the slaps given yearly by their press on the accounts of our country's social ills, I'm not feeling too friendly with the US on this sad, bitter anniversary.

I'm still waiting for a link to that previous post Hispanolano put up. I'm noticing some grammatical consistencies in some of his writings.

Now I would hate to see our friend posting things under the guise of coming from accredited sources in order to further his people's agenda on a website geared, in large part, toward the immigrant Dominican community.

And while I'm at it, not to sound shady, but I do notice that there are always Haitians on Dominican-oriented websites fighting their country's battles. Those battles shouldn't be fought neither on Dominican websites nor with Dominicans. Dominicans and Haitians fought their battles and we won. I'm sorry, but that you can't deny. We exist today because we did and because we had to.

Those battles should be fought with the international community. You guys speak French. You can just as easily plead your case on the plethora of French foreign-relations websites too.

Best of all is that international community and Haitian goverment will complain about Dominican goverment abusing this situation when reality is very clear; the children expoitation and trafficking started in Haiti no on Dominican Republic so common sense, We are no looking for this issue to come to our soil, Haitians are doing this so They need to face their own reality and consequences.

I already read so many articles today in different newspapers and once again "D.... .T" We are blamed for a dumb issue that We have't create or ask for but the Haitian goverment irresponsability and lack of actions.

Muchacho: AMAZING COMMENTS........................You hit the target right on the middle

Hispanolo, you sound like u justify Haitian children being involved in trafficking bc you've criticized everything but that.

"Trujillo's Massacre: Never Happened."
(who here as denied that? this was no worse an event then the 6 x haiti invaded the DR and burned the original location of santiago as well as other cities, raped women, thew out much of the important elite. But this is history and what's the point of arguing it? The DR government has apologized for the massacre and has even paid damages to the family; the gov does not deny it like Turkey denies their genocide w/ Armenia.)
"Haitian Sugar Cane Cutters: Not At All In DR."
(no one has denied this. there are also dominican sugar cane cutters; the pay is low but they are not forced to work)

"Haitian Discrimination: A Made Up Lie. Haitians and Dominicans live harmoniously in DR."
This should not be justified and I agree this does occur although overall both ppl live in peace in the sense that their is no constant crime being committed.
"Haitian Babies Born In DR: All have Dominican Birth Rights like any Dominican Kids born in DR."
(The constitution is clear about this. Illegal immigrants (regardless of country) are considered ppl in transit. Ppl in transit and their offsprings are not considered dominicans. Imagine how many more haitians would come if any child born in the DR would b granted dominican citizenship; imagine how much our poverty levels would rise as a result and how much more the dominican population would grow and how much more our resources would have to spread out. The DR cannot afford this.

"Haitian Cheap Labor Workers: Never brought in by Dominican Businesses into DR."
(most businesses--dominican or not--do not to bring in haitians; they come on their own. They are not forced to work; if they want to go back to Haiti they can easily do so. It is not slavery. Their situation is lamentable but they work at will and their remittances are very much appreciated in Haiti.)
"Haitian Profiling: In DR cops do not target Haitians and jail them ever at all."
Corrupt dominican cops (as well as Haitian) is something that needs to be stopped. Haitians are not the only one who get abused by cops...dominicans are as well. But if u mean immigration departments stopping them to deport them, this is something that happens globally and every haitian who crosses the border takes this risk and knows it. If they are caught, they have to know the consequences.

The DR cannot allow massive haitian migration just out of pity. It is an independent sovereign nation and that must be respected. No one wants to see Haiti in the situation it's in but that is not the DR's fault. The DR has it's own problems and it's own poverty to deal with and simply cannot afford more of it.

What is sad is that you make it so easy to point fingers at another country for Haiti's problems and even for children being trafficked by Haitians and abandoned in dominican cities. It's time to point at Haiti's government bc no other entity in this world is more responsible for that country's problems than Haiti's government. I know france, US, and other powerful nations may be historically at fault in many ways, but Haiti is INDEPENDENT and can only use that excuse so much before they realize they must stand on their own two feet.

Mayimbe it is only history when WE bring it up.

Look, I understand that both countries have taken some dramatic historical turns in fortunes. Our country is doing what it can to get ahead. We have done it in no small part by engaging the international community, not by begging our neighbors, but by exploring all avenues and all options. We have also done it by exporting a sizeable proportion of our population overseas. It is to their credit that they have not forgotten nor foresaken their countrymen and not only took care of their families with remittances, but when the time was right, enriched their country with business opportunties and investments.

Haitians should stop fiddling a tune that we have NEVER danced to...that we are the "same" people because we are NOT, otherwise Haitians wouldn't have tried to invade us so many times. We do what we can with the surplus population that Haiti can't provide for while struggling to better the lot of our own poor.

carbelk99 and Rubi: What shame should we have? The fact that our children are smuggled to your country in hopes of a better life yet almost never achieve such hopes or the shame you should have that our country (better yet the world) has been flooded by women from your country with their legs permanently spread open?

Haykickyou...

If your women kept THEIRS closed there´d be no reason to post on this paticular thread, now would there?

And don't tell me that Haitian coco is not available on the world market? Well, maybe not the world market, but surely in any bidonville in Port-au-Prince.

For the "H....." woman that adress my name, "what a low class" comment.

guess this is the main reason why Your country is going on the wrong direction.

If You are an example of your women then what kind of image you showing to the rest of the world.

to muchacho: the comment wasn't directed at you but the two idiots that commented on this article first but since you decided to intervene...."coco" from any country is available yet most countries besides a select few don't garner such a reputation for it. Our country may be poor and have tons of problems due to the poverty as well as having a negative public image due to such problems but at least our country isn't one glorified brothel. And this is coming from a 95% roman catholic, vodou-hating, god-believing country. The same way you people denigrate our migrants day in and day out (due to your wish of having a secure sovereignty which I agree with) we can also denigrate those DR migrants that come to Haiti with less-than-honorable aspirations. Ever heard of the Golden Rule?

The only person who has creditably point out his opinion on this post quite consistently without much bias is Lautaro. One thing I must state clear. The notion about the Constitution giving everybody "in Transit" the very same treatment is bull and we all know it that we have kids of White Europeans from every walks in the World whom supposedly are in "transition" having kids and DR and their kids have Birth Certificates and are never subject to the Discriminations that Haitians are facing over there. Let get this other thing clear, after those businesses are done with those workers, we all know they are brought right back to the border except this time around with guards to make sure they Haitians can not retaliate. Now, I may be Pro-Haitian perhaps I share greater ties of compassion for them as indeed they are part of me I was born in their soil, but Dominicans are quick to say I am not even part Dominican even with the given fact that my mother is from DR and her mother too.

Now can Dominicans say they do not have Dominicans living in Haiti without papers and thus have never been persecuted, discriminated against nor deny their babies who have been born on Haitian soil birth rights. Would there be social differences among people living in Shanty towns on either sides, yes, but that is between people vs people incidents since people are stuck to their own views and prejudices or should I say "xenophobia" However, it is even worse when Governments are participating to those immoral acts. The U.S has a Constitutional Amendment that gives the right to bare arms, does it mean or has it meant that they can not implement Bills for gun controls to help prevent crimes or keep them out of the hands of criminals?

For a Nation that is considered 95% Roman Catholic, I find it hard to believe that it would lack so much compassion and humane decency.

I must admit, Lautaro has been able to hold face many times and consistently point out in an intelligent manner, truths of both countries, both positive and negative and for that I commend him. I actually came on this site neutrally, wishing to hear both sides of the stories however some members of this site such as carbelk and the eternally-present Rubi and a few others constantly bash Haiti in an obsessive manner, instead of acknowledging (and actually denying sometimes) the problems of their own countries as if that inflated their superiority complex somehow. It's quite pathetic.

Okay let us agree and envision a hypothetically, an Economically prosperous Haiti and with a politically stable Haiti and all Haitians start heading back to Haiti as have wished RUBIROSA and most Dominicans.

Now let us keep in mind that it has always been the case and stated that, two-thirds of Dominican Republic's own economy depends on Haitians Cheap Labor. Thus, let us say again all Haitians decided to go home as Aristide and Balaguer had once agreed and we saw happened. Did or have DR not suffered Economically then and would they not suffer in the future if there is to be a more politically, economically and sociable Haiti?

HAYkickyouintheSHIN...

When you talk about "Dominican women" you overlook the fact that our mothers are Dominican women. I can assure you that my mother has never sold any part of her body.

Secondly...if you are going to call my country a "glorified brothel" you have more nerve than a rotten tooth. Especially when you come on a Dominican website to fling that type of trash.

Now tell me if most people or businesses who depends on any Cheap Labor exploitation would all be happy with a successful Haiti much less to say, would their businesses be more productive and successful to even say to hire Dominicans for a higher pay rate than would be given to a Haitian?

Now everyone who is so called "True Dominicans" answer me this questions. Would any of you accept a $3 Dollar A Day pay job that a Haitian who left DR to go back to Haiti used to be paid or are being paid now?

Plain and simply, no going around it with any kind of excuses; just directly this question as it is posted answer it with all honesty and sincerity please.

RUBIRORA?
LAUTARO?
MUCHACHO?
MAYIMBE?

Everyone, anyone, someone, anybody on here?

QUOTE: Now everyone who is so called "True Dominicans" answer me this questions. Would any of you accept a $3 Dollar A Day pay job that a Haitian who left DR to go back to Haiti used to be paid or are being paid now?

That's a ridiculous hypothesis considering that I live in New York, for one. I have a degree and am working on my masters, secondly. And I have certain skills that qualify me for better.

But why don't you pose that question to unemployed rural campesinos in Santo Domingo and see what answer you get.

No, I'll not accept it, mr. Hispanolano, because that would be akin to selling myself out to slavery. Also, while the construction and plantations using haitian labour would not be successful on the short run, in the long run the entire country would benefit if they, as it's their patriotic duty to do, were to employ dominicans with a higher pay rate, because with that measure, the unemployment between native dominicans would tend to decrease, thus diminishing the chances of this poor, neglected people of taking the unfortunate decisions of braving the sharks to reach Puerto Rico, resort to thievery and assassination or worse, get themselves into the drug and prostitution business in order to survive, and all just because this aristocratic scum running those business want to mazimize their profits even if in the process they send their entire country to rot in hell. Sorry, mr. Hispanolano, but from my POV, the entire country would profit were these aristocratic scum to do their duty.

TRUE AND POSITIVE STATEMENT: DR has its own problems and it's own poverty to deal with and simply cannot afford more of it.

TRUE AND HONEST: Lautaro has been able to hold face many times and consistently point out in an intelligent manner, truths of both countries.

FALSE AND HYPOCRITICAL: If You are an example of your women then what kind of image you showing to the rest of the world.

TRUE YET BIAS: Haiti may be poor and have tons of problems, but at least the country isn't one to glorified brothel.

FALSE, NEGATIVE AND CONDESCENDING: If your women kept THEIRS closed there´d be no reason to post on this paticular thread, now would there?

FALSE, WITH A HOWEVER: Dominicans and Haitians fought their battles and we won.

muchacho if you've read my post clearly you'll see that I never insulted all "Dominican women" but simply pointed out a fact about the majority of those women that travel to Haiti for prostitution which cannot be denied. In fact my post was directed at Rubi, carbelk99, greenwave, and other anti-Haitian bigots that insult my country on a daily basis. You seem to overlook the fact that some of our relatives may be Haitian migrants (legal or illegal). I can assure you that a relative of mine in the DR has not drained the economy or committed crimes and lives a honorable hardworking life and actually has a modest life there. Remember that I'm not here to get wrapped up in the continuous duration of binational conflict that has engulfed both peoples but before you attempt to classify my counter-comment as "trash", you should read the trash that many of your fellow Dominicans have posted on here. Peace upon you.

SUMMARIZE ANALYSIS: From what is gathered from both sides of the aisle, both Nations have their own problems and responsibility and in Haiti's case more of it without any doubt. As indeed Lautaro has been consistent with showing and intellectually without much strong bias and prejudice and racial slurs unlike Rubirosa and Muchacha that, both sides Haiti and DR have their own biases, prejudices and in Haiti's case some are more complex than meet the eyes.

However none to match the hypocritical, reluctancy and eluding as well as evading stances of DR on many issues which I understand is due to Xenophobia and the fear of a possible future overpopulated Haitian population Dominican Republic which later DR feels they may have to actually really be obligated to and provide rights to under Human Law and Code of Justice. One thing for sure for both Countries to realize is that, placing blames, justifying, resentments and differences will one day be of no actual based excuses, causes and reasons for having not been more pro-actively engaged and that is the obligation of both Nations to know of their inhabitance of the very same Island and to find a way to politically, economically and socially exist. Not as one perhaps, but as two civilized Country, Nations and as Neighbors and Hispaniolans.

MY RESPONSE TO MUCHACHO: Sorry and indeed I did not provide a link and I looked for it and could not find one as I assume this post was old and may have been biased since I got it from another Caribbean source.

But to answer your question in reference to any Haitian and Dominican historical battle. There has never been any great recordings indicating any out right direct battles and combats between Haiti and Dominican Republic.

(Hey Lautaro, can you find me some evidence of that please as I, too, would like to research it).

Any victory owes to DR had been to the fact DR had surrender sovereignty to Spain and many accords and treaty between the two nations Haiti and DR were actually going back and forth thus suffice to say it was mostly political battle endeavors and if anything else, DR gets their independence from Spain so to speak in retrospect of the growing confrontations with Haiti. So what battle has been won again?

Now you see people, here is the answer from Muchacha when I sincerely asked that with no forms of excuse whatsoever to please directly answer the question for just a question that it was. His reply was: "That's a ridiculous hypothesis considering that I live in New York, for one. I have a degree and am working on my masters, secondly. And I have certain skills that qualify me for better. But why don't you pose that question to unemployed rural campesinos in Santo Domingo and see what answer you get."

Rubirosa is still silent...

Yet however people, as always and up front Lautaro has honestly answers from his heart and to whom I give greater respect to and adoration; but read his statement as what it indicates and mentions people, in light of any justification DR and Dominicans may have, please read it for what it is and what it says: "No, I will not accept it, mr. Hispanolano, because that would be asking to selling myself out to slavery. "

http://archivohistorico.santiagod....com/body_batalla_30_de_marzo.html

This one is from the Santiago Historical Archive, mr. Hispanolano, so I seriously doubt that you'll find it not to be biased. Still, I still recommend you to read it, just for the sake of it.

Look, I'm really, really sorry if I don't bend over backwards to avoid injuring your sensibilities. But we're talking politics. Politics is not for the weak hearted. There are some hard truths that have to be swallowed.

The first one, Hispanolana is that we fought our battles with Haiti and defeated Haiti nearly every time it tried to invade. So...throw away your Haitian history book that says otherwise. That comment was a rhetorical one directred at Mayimbe's post. (Scroll up).

My second observation is the one that has yet to be answered and the one that most Dominicans are skittish about posting out fear of wounding those very same sensibilities...why is that Haitians routinely invade Dominican websites to fight their country's battles?

cont..

Several years ago when my mom's cousin's son told me he was starting this website with his friends, I never knew he intended every topic to somehow devolve into a rehashing of Haitian-Dominican politics. My understanding was that he and his friends were working on website that would bridge the gap between those of us here in the U.S and those back home.

But I could be wrong. I suppose I should go visit Ramonita and ask her son what their intentions were.

THANK YOU LAUTARO FOR BEING SO CONSTRUCTIVELY INTELLIGENT ON THE MATTER AND I MEAN IT FROM THE DEEPEST PART OF THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART.

Correct me if I am wrong, you are not from Santo Domingo, are you? I would say, perhaps the South part of DR or even maybe closer to the West of the Country. As a Haitian-Dominican i used to be so against Haitians and can you believe that I was even born in Haiti, yet I was anti-Haitians and used to blame them for everything. That was until my mother and grand mother who are Dominicans sat me down and told me directly and say: "Blanc, when you or those who think they know something or everything; you or they do not know anything at all." Now my grand mother never finished High school, but the moral knowledge she has on certain thing, man, will blow your mind out of the water.

HispanolanoYoSoy...

Your meager attempts at editorialising are really shitty. Everyone can clearly read my post. And I did to you what you attempted to do to us...put us in a corner by asking a hypothetically unfeasible question. So I posed one right back at you.

Get out of the kitchen.

I have a problem with the word "invade" muchacho. People of all nationalities and cultures and races can come to any site on the world wide web they want to if they wish and it is very ignorant and close-minded for you to say that those groups are "invading" a particular site. The fact that many articles on this site have to do with Haiti gives me full right to post my views and opinions on it, especially when my country is being insulted and my people demeaned. Who says only Dominicans can come on here??? There are people of all creeds on every site and that includes Haitians. Much the same way if a bunch of you kept insulting and posting your critical opinions (which may or may not be true) of another country such as Venezuela for example, then the Venezuelans on this site (if there are any) are more likely to post their opinions and defend their interests (which is their country). There are Dominicans on Haitian websites that routinely "fight their battles" as well.

So you're offended by the word 'invade'. I pity you. Move on. But I didn't escape my notice that every topic dealing with Haiti was started by a Haitian. Or has it escaped yours? It's as if you guys are trying to shove your issues down our throats.

(cont'd) The Internet belongs to everyone and you or nobody else has the right to say otherwise. Besides, in my opinion I would love having people of different groups, especially the neighboring country come to the site if I was the moderator because it allows one to hear two sides to one story and gives insight on a nation's perceptions. So stop the cyber-Trujilloism..there is no such thing as illegal visitation on a website..LOL.

The internet is an open market place of ideas. I suggest to you that you should invest in that marketplace and create sites for and about Haiti.

So everyone of them huh, yet Haiti managed to have occupied DR for 22 years. Then with several times they have gotten as far to in fact gone beyond the Dominican Border. So yeah, every time huh...

As "History" states and perhaps ask Lautaro if you must, that those attempts were what one would called thawed; and yes indeed prevented by counter measures. Pedro Santana is considered a brilliant military strategist, and was the only key figure in the successful separation of the Dominican Republic from Haiti. But many historians think that some of his later actions barred him from becoming a genuine national hero like Duarte and Leperon.

Hispanolana excuse for saying this because I rarely express myself this way, especially in an open evironment...but you, sir, are an idiot in the classic definition of the word.

Now tell me if most people or businesses who depends on any Cheap Labor exploitation would all be happy with a successful Haiti much less to say, would their businesses be more productive and successful to even say to hire Dominicans for a higher pay rate than would be given to a Haitian?

Now everyone who is so called "True Dominicans" answer me this questions. Would any of you accept a $3 Dollar A Day pay job that a Haitian who left DR to go back to Haiti used to be paid or are being paid now?

Plain and simply, no going around it with any kind of excuses; just directly this question as it is posted answer it with all honesty and sincerity please.

RUBIRORA?
MUCHACHO?
MAYIMBE?

Everyone, anyone, someone, anybody on here?

Get out of the kitchen.

Incredible as it sounds, mr. Hispanolano, I'm a capitaleño (although I lived on the eastern part of the DN, which is not considered part of the city properly, until my mid-teenage years) my family is from a very diverse background. My father and his family are liniero campesinos from Valverde and my mother's family is from Bani, although she herself is a capitaleña, her father was a Puerto Rican inmigrant and her great grandfather (her mother's father) was a spanish of Andalucian (or Andaluz) extraction. He fought in the Spanish-American War of 1898 in which Spain lost what was left of its empire (Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Phillipines). Dissilusioned, he would leave the navy and come to this island to leave the rest of his days as a campesino in Azua.

Well muchacho if your beloved strictly Dominican website can only be visited by Dominicans..why the Haiti-related articles? As long as an article refers to Haiti I will comment my views on it if I wish to. Deal with it. I participate in a variety of forums my friend if you must know including Haitian forums. I don't have to invest in starting anything. Save that for the Dominicans on Haitian-oriented sites, and the Americans, Brits, Canadians, perhaps Cuban that come on here as well. What are you, the DominicanToday national guard?

I'm nobody's guard. But you want to overlook the obvious...all the topics started dealing with your country were started by your countrymen. I have yet to see any topic by a Brit dealing with Britain, or by a Canuck dealking with Canada, or by a Cuban dealing with Cuba.

Again, you don't realize how Haitians consistantly bring up the same topic...why do Dominicans hate us? There are several variations on that very theme in the forum. It gets tiring and annoying.

Don't you guys have anything else to talk about?

Muchacha lol,

I get even harder on Haitians on their website, promoting self-sufficiency. To say the least, at least it shows a greater sense of channeling for dialogues on the Haitians part to take the risks of going onto a Dominican site and open debates. There is a more sense of civility in that as oppose to that of Dominicans who do not even make the effort to go to Haitians sites to do the same. That initiative is coming from a group of people whom reputations have been tarnished especially in Dominicans' eyes as uncivilized, unruly and lack progressive thinking.

Thus, I am just going out on a limb here and say nonetheless that, it shows a level of lack of reach-ability on Dominicans part diplomatically or perhaps that it has something to do with Dominicans thinking that it is the least of their concerns. Suffice or fair enough to say, muchacha? Okay then, so let us try this. Here are just two Haitians sites:

http://www.prevalhaiti.com
http://www.repairhaiti.c

You are absolutely right...it is the least of our concerns. Our concern right now is the future of our homeland. Pure and simple. While much can be said about the impact that the Haitian problem will have on that future, I doubt that that is the only or even the most salient issue concerning the Dominican Republic and her future.

Granted.

However ironically enough if the intent for this site was for simply Dominicans to access it, the administrator of this site would have never post any Haitian related Articles on it whether it made the general media news or not.

You could not have said something anymore racist and divisive such as this statement. Muchacha. Perhaps and unless that is your genuine intent all along. To keep the divisiveness going between the two nations.

Nonetheless, it is your thought process and point of view that I suppose racist and divisive or not we must stir away from.

You should scroll up and read. And you should stop with the infantile use of the feminine when addressing me. It's been my experience that when people run out of coherent arguments they resort to name calling.

Now, make whatever point you have to make quickly. I have 15 minutes before I have to go teach a recitation class. I believe I have made mine already.

Lol ha hahh you have caught on I see!!! Okay, okay you are right Muchacho. I will stop using your name as such.. Open up man, have a sense of humor lol.

"I believe I have made mine already." Pfft, which was...?

That you guys don't seem to have anything else to contribute to the discourse other then to pose the perennial question: Why don't Dominicans like us?

"All the topics started dealing with your country were started by your countrymen. " Oh so the website posted news and articles as well, Muchacho?

The personal posted topics, yes, but you mean to say the actual DominicanToday.com columns too.

Yeah okay, Muchacho, sure... Your 15 minutes are up.

muchacho: My point is that the Haitians on here care about their homeland and although you seem to think Haiti has no impact on the DR and vice/versa, we believe that for a new era to begin, we must fully address the issues that affect both countries negatively. We know we cannot change those that are steadfast in their views, no matter how wrong they might be, but it is important that we voice our views, reasons, and perspectives simply because we can. No reason for all the insecurity. You can continue to care all you want about your country's future and that's acceptable and encouraged of course, however putting down other's views, whether or not they relate directly to the DR isn't productive at all.

Most Haitians on here voice their opinions on the injustices carried out against their people in the Dominican Republic. It wouldn't make much sense to discuss Haitian issues that have no relation to the DR would it? Therefore we contribute to the discussions and the debates, views and facts that somehow incorporate both countries. Nothing so bad about that is it? I hope you don't live in a bubble my friend.

But the problem haykickya...is that you guys seem to have one view...waawwwwwwwww...why do the Dominicans hate us?

Take a quick look at the forum. Look at the topics started dealing with Haiti. Who started them? And what is the main theme of most of them?

Bajense de ese palo ya.

Allright...I gotta go before the lecture professor catches a fit because I'm not in to lead the group.

But I will be back.

Lautaro,

La Capital; wow, impressive. I am shocked!!! Most of DR's High Scholars and Well Educated are in Santiago mostly. (I say mostly, not all). However, the level of diversity in you have proved to may have kept you from being perhaps an extremist on certain issues like most on here which I tend to find in people with many or a diverse background like myself.

That explains a lot. Not to say that someone of any direct Dominican or direct Haitian make up or specific race can not be as versatile, but mostly only those that are genetically comprised of multi-racial backgrounds tend to be the ones to break racial barriers between two strong racial groups because often we are caught in the middle.

Maybe I am totally wrong in my observation and analysis, nevertheless Lautaro r anybody what are your take, opinion or views on that?

No bubble...I think I, being the person that I am, would rather be enlightened about Haitain issues than have to hear the same thing over and over again.

Now I gotta go...

THE QUESTION WAS AND STILL STANDS: Would any of you (especially Dominicans) accept a $3 Dollar A Day pay job that a Haitian who left DR to go back to Haiti because given perhaps in the future the situation will have greatly improved or used to be paid or are being paid right now in the Dominican Republic?
Yes or no and why, would you or would you not accept that job?

GROUND RULES: Please, plain and simply with no going around the question with any kinds of excuses. Just directly answer this question with all honesty and sincerity as it is posted, please. With a yes or no and perhaps a little elaborate if possible for your yes or no answer.

Lol everyone, we are still waiting on:
RUBIROSA?
MUCHACHO?
MAYIMBE?
HAYKICKYOUINTHESHIN?

OR ANYBODY WHO WISHES TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION ARE WELCOME TO DO SO.

muchacho: Well I have commented on non-Haitian related things on this site several times and so I am not one of those people to constantly bring up such issues (although I deeply care for better relations between the two countries). Many on here can say the same about the Greenrubicarbelkeuromaxers that give your people a negative reputation. They constantly talk about the same thing in every article even when it has nothing to do with Haiti: Their hobby and obsession in pointing out Haiti's problems. I admire many things in your country so do not mistake my compassion for the Haitians that suffer abuse in your country as being anti-Dominican because I certainly am not. And trust me if I were to discuss Haiti's local issues and news and etc. some other nationalists on this site would probably bash me and accuse me of flooding the site with irrelevant topics in regard to the Dominican Republic.

No I wouldn't Hispanolano because as Lautaro stated, it would virtually be slavery and I wouldn't put myself in such a precarious predicament. Unless I didn't know better and I lived somewhere where those meager $3 dollars would be considered a modest or even high wage, I would never take such a job.

"Would any of you accept a $3 Dollar A Day pay job that a Haitian who left DR to go back to Haiti used to be paid or are being paid now? "

No. I too have a degree and experience in fields that would require a higher pay. The point is that these Haitians were not forced to work there, it is by will and if they are working there it is bc they feel they cannot get anything better. Same reason why dominicans work for very little in PR, mexicans in the US, bolivians in Argentina. It is all relative and I'm sure u r smart enough to understand this.

Dominicans are also deported from the US and I never complain about this bc the laws of those countries must be respected. Illegal immigrants know the risks they are taking.

What is your agenda? what is your point? quit the bashing DR and tell us what your major point is bc u obviously came here to stir up some issues so that u can vent your frustrations.

Mayimbe...

I do believe that what we have here is a core group of Haitians intent on keeping the issues of their people on the front burner. In that sense, it really has become a distraction. The rest of us are trying to utilize this website as a medium to create an interchange between the outside world and Dominicans in D.R. Mr. Hispanolano and a few others have a mental fixation that posting on a forum will not cure.

I don't think too many people really care about, or want to hear, whether or not Dominicans have any dislike for Haitians or the details of their historically acrimonious relationship. I'm pretty sure that if I'm aggravated at constantly being dragged down the same semantic path, so are a lot of visitors to this website.

There really are times when silence truly speaks louder than words. No matter how much you flog a dead horse he's not going to win the Kentucky Derby. So we should let it rest and accept that we are entrenched in our positions.

Actually I must admit Hispanolo what is your point with the question?

Answer the question lol!!!

Human rights groups: Haitian children trafficked to Dominican side of border

That is what the post posted by the staff of this website posted is it not? Thus how is it absurd for Haitians to or not to post their views on the topic if the topic is based on Haitian issues in DR itself, and since they are the existing Haitian - Dominican issues that Dominicans and Haitians are confronting in DR regardless of their extent orlevel of their expose? Otherwise it would not have been posted. If solely this site was created for those illusioned misconcetions you have mentioned.

So are you to say or most affirmatively saying that this site is helping, contributing to negative propaganda against its very own Dominicans and DR? Hmmm, Huhhh, speaking about absurd eh...?

What it has something to do with is that: Granted as one may have stated above that those Haitians are not forced to take those jobs. But why is that they cannot demand raise and improvements on working conditions that when they do, those employers brought them right back to the border with guards after having smuggled them for that very particular job?

Anyway, we have concluded if anything else that most of you say or agreed that "No you wouldn't because as some of you stated, it would be slavery and wouldn't put yourself in such a precarious predicament"

We can all see MUCHACHO is still dancing around the question and have yet heard anything from Rubirosa. Thank you to those who have honestly and sincerely answered the question with or without the knowledge that a backlash or reprisal could have erupted on this thread. It as a human simple question which proves it points agree or disagree most have said they would not subject to such a job.

"I do believe that what we have here is a core group of Haitians intent on keeping the issues of their people on the front burner. In that sense, it really has become a distraction. The rest of us are trying to utilize this website as a medium to create an interchange between the outside world and Dominicans in D.R. Mr. Hispanolano and a few others have a mental fixation that posting on a forum will not cure."

YET MUCHACHO, given that is your belief and how you feel, you are still as adamantly indulged in the subject as you are stating what is considered to be your supposedly alleged conception to what the purpose and intent of this website generally was intended, created or perhaps invented for right...

By your own admission on another thread in the forum you are a manic-obsessive. Not a good look. For you, your position or your people. You are so obsessive that you don't realize when you have been dismissed and are being ignored.

Have a good day and you can go ahead and take that $3 a day job. You obviously need something to occupy your time. Besides, you'll be helping your cause because you are Dominican and you can lend a hand to the Haitian side. Oh, wait...you're Haitian. No, wait...you're Jewish.

Whatever.

Muchacho: for the second time you hit the target right on the middle, If You see my posts "I must admit" sometimes I get aggravated with the same tiresome topic like you mention already:

Haitians always whining like babies expressing non sense points of views regarding Dominican Republic, Like I mentionet already (12 times) I have never seen Haitians admitting and acknowledging that their goverment and country should be held accountable for the bad living that they have to encounter elsewhere.

But the easy part is brandishing and pointing the worst of the opinions against Dominicans,
regarding them invading our website you right too, "They should stay away" since They don't post constructive and diplomatic opinions towards "Quisqueya".

Already said many times why "Haitians" don't create their own website and I guarantee 100% to
"Hispanoliano, Hya, Josean, perception, jabao haitian and everybody concerned that they will never see a "Dominican" posting non sense opinions

(Cont) about theis issues, country, lives, people or anything else.

I have ever, never seen any "Proactive Haitian" in Dominican Today saying to the world:

"Yes We do have a big issue in Haiti but You know what We are doing our best and sooner or later We will move on and for the better"

I interact, worked and grew up with "Asian culture" people and They have a code of honor and accountability to face daily life responsabilities and this is an excellent pattern to grow up, improve
and achieve goals and go the extra mile to be a better human being.

Haitians so far haven't showed any "Code of Honor" but always post their complaints against our goverment and why We don't take care of their problems.

Last time that I checked We were 2 different countries with 2 different cultures 2 different languages and 2 different agendas going towards 2 different directions and sharing the island by 2.

(Cont) about theis issues, country, lives, people or anything else.

I have ever, never seen any "Proactive Haitian" in Dominican Today saying to the world:

"Yes We do have a big issue in Haiti but You know what We are doing our best and sooner or later We will move on and for the better"

I interact, worked and grew up with "Asian culture" people and They have a code of honor and accountability to face daily life responsabilities and this is an excellent pattern to grow up, improve
and achieve goals and go the extra mile to be a better human being.

Haitians so far haven't showed any "Code of Honor" but always post their complaints against our goverment and why We don't take care of their problems.

Last time that I checked We were 2 different countries with 2 different cultures 2 different languages and 2 different agendas going to 2 different directions and sharing the island by 2.

To: Muchacho and HispanolanoYoSoy,
I know both of you have very liberal and modest views when it comes to Haitian-Dominican politics, but this constant back and forth is making you both look like your extremist. You guys need to take a rest...Grab a ice cold Prestige/Presidente and let cooler heads prevail. As a matter of fact take a look at this and have a laugh.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=dtv02v1VYeg

HispanolanoYoSoy,

“Trujillo's Massacre: Never Happened.
Haitian Sugar Cane Cutters: Not At All In DR.
Haitian Discrimination: A Made Up Lie.”

I never thought any Dominican would ever acknowledge any misdeeds that have occurred to my people in DR. It takes great courage to tell the truth to many who already knew it, and either chose to ignore it or deny it.

Sure, I acknowledge the fault of the Haitian Government for not taking their responsibility toward their people. The Haitian people have always been willing to overthrow corrupt governments, but the International patrons and almighties want the corrupt governments to stay, because it serves their interests.

Sure the DR have welcomed rich black Haitians and Mulatto or white Haitians who have invested billions in DR, but the DR have also reserved a special hell for the poor black Haitians who cross into the DR. No special treatment is needed, but human being ought to treat others humanly.

jemesouviens...that was hysterical! you should post more of those!