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SANTO DOMINGO.- A veteran lawmaker today said "powerful foreign interests and local accomplices" seek to ignore the State’s legislation on nationality, immigration and civil registry, and warned Dominicans to become responsible and militant against what he described as a dangerous antinational maneuver.

The FNP party deputy Pelegrin Castillo said the National District Court 3rd Civil Chamber verdict ordering the Central Electoral Board (JCE) to issue a birth certificate to a minor of Haitian parents "is the result of machinations by those sectors which have influence in the judicial power."

"Those sectors which from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France unleash defamation and intimidation campaigns and have managed to postpone the Immigration Law from taking effect now try to revert the Supreme Court’s important decision of 2005 regarding nationality, to declare that only the children born in the national territory whose of foreign parents who have legal residence will acquire the nationality," he said.

In a press conference, the FNP leader and lawyer said the national public powers don’t have to yield before those sectors’ "blackmail and pressures. If these people have their way, we’ll be observing the beginning at the end of the Dominican Nation, because a state that cannot defend its positions regarding nationality, immigration, border and civil registry, can undeniably be considered insolvent."

Castillo said those sectors have a strategic plan to find a space in Dominican Republic to solve Haiti’s serious problems, as the cost to rebuild in his view is too high and the long term results are uncertain.

"That sentence also constitutes, an element of the plan, to implant a national minority with political rights, which is a fundamental demand of the Haitian movements organized in Dominican Republic, headed by Sonia Pierre, Jan Batiste Latorti and other leaders," the lawmaker said.

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COMMENTS
215 comment(s)
Written by: Ferreras555, 7 May 2008 2:58 PM
From: United States
Is this for real are the haitians really taking over are we really in that much danger.......
Written by: Edward, 7 May 2008 3:17 PM
From: United States, Faux News: Unfair Imbalance
If i had it my way there would be no immigration laws and borders in the world!
Written by: MrDom, 7 May 2008 3:40 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
The law should continue as it is...... and all those intimidations from those countries and people won't have any effect because we Dominicans know that if they want to use us to solve Haiti’s serious problems..... they have to find a way that cannot affect our nacionality and sovereignty....that is too risky to let haitian children to be Dominicans.... They will come to DR just to give birth so their Children can be Dominican....
Written by: cibaeño75, 7 May 2008 3:50 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Castillo said those sectors have a strategic plan to find a space in Dominican Republic to solve Haiti’s serious problems, as the cost to rebuild in his view is too high and the long term results are uncertain."

Why doesn't he give details of these supposed plans instead of just making allegations and practicing plain old fear-mongering?
Written by: bernies, 7 May 2008 4:01 PM
From: United States, key west fl
listen up cibaeno. will you like to have nation or two diferent nations which are dominican republic and haiti or just plain and simple dominican-haitian you let me know when you do.
Written by: cibaeño75, 7 May 2008 4:12 PM
From: United States, New York City
bernies, how did you interpret my comments as calling for a unification of the two nations on the island?...deja de tai' palomiando socio. Mi patria siempre sera mi patria y no tiene nada que ver con haiti en lo territorial. My personal opinion on the subject at hand? El que nacio en el mismo suelo que me vio nacer tiene el mismo derecho que yo a llamarse "Dominicano", a mi no me importa que sea chino, rojo o prieto y a la tierra no le importa tampoco. With that said I think there needs to be a serious curtailing of illegal immigration into DR but that is something that the Dominican government could've curtailed along time ago had they really wanted to, which obviously they do not.
Written by: cibaeño75, 7 May 2008 4:21 PM
From: United States, New York City
This guy Castillo wants to perpetuate the mechanisms whereby scores of my countrymen are being denied their rights as Dominicans. Men like Castillo aren't men. You can tell just by looking at him. If DR were in a war tomorrow his kind would high tail it out of there or hide themselves as best they can. Men like him didn't weild the machetes that made us who we are, nor would they ever. When a clown like that speaks on "nationalism" and related issues I tend not to listen. Los hombres se conocen de lejos. No me interesa compartir teorias sobre mi identidad con babosos con pretensiones de intelectual.
Written by: NYCDR, 7 May 2008 5:38 PM
From: United States
I thought the immigration laws where cleared. During Hipolito's (I am not his fan) presidency, there was a law passed that states that illegal haitians who give birth in dominican territory have no rights to become dominican residents nor does their child have dominican citizenship because of it! Please correct me if I am wrong on the law.

Cibaeno, the reason behind this is not because of prejudice but because of depletion of resources. Check back not long ago when the statistics showed that in Santiago there were a huge number of young girls giving birth (average age 12). The report specified the fact that children having children give birth to sick babies because their bodies were not fully developed.
Now, please check to see how many of these girls were actually dominican and of dominican descent and how many were haitian!!!
Its alarming and I understand that Haiti is no nirvana, but DR has its own problems and lacks to also carry the burden of our neighbor too!!!!
Written by: josean, 7 May 2008 5:42 PM
From: United States
cibaeño75

Pelegrin Castillo is the son of Vincho Castillo a neo fascist , neo Trujillista (now that might be redundant) who is on of "Lie-onel's" idols.

Not to long ago "Lie" declared himself a "Vinchista" and "Bochista" which is like being a worshiper of Satan and God at the same time.

But to paraphrase old Winston Churchill "Lie-onel" is an "Enigma wrapped in a Contradiction" or as an untutored peasant like me would say a blatant political opportunist!
Written by: MrDom, 7 May 2008 6:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
You are right about the law NYCDR... and you are right about everthing you said... I could not say it better
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 7 May 2008 6:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Haiti has the highest birth-rate in the western hemisphere and is also the least developed and poorest. The Dominican Republic cannot by any means surrender to international pressure, like i said before article 11 could be annulled in the case of Haiti. Due to the fact of what i stated in the beginning of my post. i knew this was something that sooner or later was going to make the headlines thanks to those evil N.G.O's that constantly bash the Dominican Republic for the misery of a country that has inflicted it's own wounds.
Written by: chillaxin201 This user is banned, 7 May 2008 6:16 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
Don’t let these people Sonia Pierre, Jan Batiste Latorti make you believe that just because some one is Pro- Dominican that they are anti Haitian or racist.
It does not make you racist to protect your sovereignty. The U.S. is very anti Haitian, and if the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France are so pro Haitian maybe they should open there borders to them.
Let us not forget who over through Haiti’s last president THE U.S.
WHO DID HAITI FIGHT FOR FREEDOM? THE FRENCE



Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 7 May 2008 6:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic
It's funny i remember what my mother told me about what's going on in D.R. she's a dual citizen, but she told me that if things continue the way they are with so many haitians in D.R. she will denounce her nationality and become a full american citizen. This story makes me want to puke!!!!!
Written by: Jander, 7 May 2008 6:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
"The U.S. is very anti Haitian, and if the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France are so pro Haitian maybe they should open there borders to them."

Why should we open our borders to anyone? Why can't Haitians make their own country work? Why would we want to open the gates , Haiti made it's bed now it has to lay in it.

The US is anti Haitian ?, I know a lot of Haitian-Americans who love the US and support and respect it's laws. I don't think the US as a whole is Anti anything except terrorism!

We have woman and a black man running for president.
And there is a very good chance that one or the other will win.
There is also a chance they both will be in the whitehouse.
Written by: Jander, 7 May 2008 6:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic
con't

The US should not be blamed for any of the problems either of these countries have.

The US does what it can and in most case more then it should and we the taxpayers foot the bill.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 7 May 2008 6:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Chillaxin201 Just to be fair we cant blame other naitions for a country that's been ruled by pseudo emperors, dictators, military strong men., that have divided the country through racial conflicts since it's inception. I was reading an interesting thread on a forum and i got to tell you i learned a couple of things that i did not know as far as racial definitions within Haiti. In a country of blacks and few mulattos. Here's the link - http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?&t=34535
Written by: Euromax This user is banned, 7 May 2008 6:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Bonao, provincia M.N
what!?, they will have to respect our country! pal de vagos, if i was the president i will put evrybody "en sintura" like they say over there in other words what this country needs is a revolution!, a society change and a way of thinking also! we need more power on the region! we should stop being so, sissy!..for D.R we should do somehting fast!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 7 May 2008 7:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Euromax I agree with you 100% the fact that Haiti's elite mostly mulatto hates the majority black population it dont mean that we got to take care of their poor. My solution to this problem is massive expulsion of haitians, and also draft in the dominican military every 18 year old male and female and trained them on how to use weapons, so we can prepare ourselves for a future war unless we want to become annexed to Haiti? "HELL NO" TO THAT!!!!!
Written by: Escott, 7 May 2008 8:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
The Haitians are coming, The Haitians are coming!!!

You throw out all the Haitians and the DR will go backwards since you cant find a Dominican to work worth a dime.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 7 May 2008 10:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Thanks Escott for being so candid! we are going backwards? unlike Haiti they are moving forward? This article sounds more like hype than anything else. But then again we got to be on the look out, for those that mask themselves as innocent doves but inside are ravenous wolves!
Written by: buenoha, 8 May 2008 5:02 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Carbelk99 you should appologize for that stupid and ignorant racist remark!
Written by: tejada, 8 May 2008 8:13 AM
From: United States
<sighs>
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 10:02 AM
From: United States, New York City
"there was a law passed that states that illegal haitians who give birth in dominican territory have no rights to become dominican residents nor does their child have dominican citizenship because of it"
Indeed that is the law but if you apply that criterion to some of the great historical figures produced by the Dominican Republic you would exclude them from being Dominican. Does anyone posting on here have the nerve to say that they're more of a patriot than Luperon was? Or even Hereaux for that matter (though he proved to be a despotic dictator no one can erase the fact that he was valiant in war and put his life on the line for the Dominican nation on several occasions. No one on here can say that), Both these men are the sons of haitians. As for Castillo, he's a coward. He knows who are the individuals in Dominican society who are perpetuating illegal haitian immigration. He's not going to call them out. Instead he makes a blanket accusation with no merit whatsoever.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 10:06 AM
From: United States, New York City
Castillo wants to make it seem as if illegal haitian immigration is the result of some machiavellian plot being hatched by foreign governments with some "local accomplices". No one need look that far to point fingers at who is facilitating the entry of illegals into DR. It's the very elites who run DR who are to blame. It's not an international conspiracy. It's a local outrage. The haitians serve two purposes: cheap labor and a useful scapegoat everytime it hits the fan.
Written by: oneworld, 8 May 2008 10:53 AM
From: United States
cibaeño75, "No one need look that far to point fingers at who is facilitating the entry of illegals into DR. It's the very elites who run DR who are to blame" Amen to your comment.
Every election in the DR, there is a glut of Haitian bashing and scapegoating, nothing new there. As far as those who are demonizing Dessalines, it is easy in the 21st century to bash him, when it was his enemies in 1803 who started the campaign, with a plan to kill all black & mulatto Haitians aged 13 and older and re-import new Africans for the slavery business, because those older than aged 13 began to revolt. At least he was fighting to take us out of slavery and human bondage, but in 1937 more than a 100 years later your beloved Trujillo did him 100X better by ordering the DR army to butcher 50K Haitians and Black Dominicans - unarmed men, women, and children, mostly in border areas, but also in the western Cibao for no reason, like Hitler, Trujillo was trying to purify the DR.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 11:04 AM
From: United States, New York City
onewrold, I have very little respect for the figure of Dessaline. It's my personal opinion and I base it on the historical record that has been passed down to us (my opinion on Dessalines, however, is no reflection on how I feel about the Haitian people). To me Trujillo and Dessalines are both vicious monsters. I have no respect for those that do not respect human life themselves no matter the time period or supposed circumstances that they were laboring under.
Written by: Anonymous, 8 May 2008 11:10 AM
From: United States
Cibaeno75, I think you know of a man named trujillo. Sadly, he has haitian blood running through his veins. No mater what is said and done, haitians should stay on their side and dominicans on their side, but because of how the countries are run and how dominican economy is running, haitians are almost a necessity to keep investments coming to DR. If DR becomes to expensive to do business, the foreignors are going to go elsewhere. Asia seems to be a better place to go to. As for tourism, if somoene increase their military to go to war with haiti, that person should get shot. I am sure that person wants DR economy to spiral down. No matter what happens a war within two poor countries which shares the same island is asking for chaos and decades of guerilla warfare. The haitian government must step up to the plate, and the Dominican government should start seeing ways to better their neighbor while expelling illegal haitians. Sounds like a better approach, if you ask me.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 11:11 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
To resume your position, cibaeño (which I also share wholeheartedly): Injustice and murder can't never be considered as a acts of justice, no matter how noble the motivation. What makes Dessalines, and Trujillo's, acts more despicable is that they committed their crimes from a victorious position, when being lenient to their opponents would have gotten them more glory than any victory on the battlefield.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 11:16 AM
From: United States, New York City
"Cibaeno75, I think you know of a man named trujillo. Sadly, he has haitian blood running through his veins. "

And you're regurgitating this information to me because..?
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 11:20 AM
From: United States, New York City
"The haitian government must step up to the plate, and the Dominican government should start seeing ways to better their neighbor while expelling illegal haitians. Sounds like a better approach, if you ask me."

What does Haiti putting its finances in order have to do with Dominicans of haitian ancestry or their status in DR? Of course haiti needs to get her affairs in order. No brainer there. As for the deportation of illegals, I'm all for that. No arguments from me there.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 11:28 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
That´s easy to figure out, cibaeño, if the haitian government were to put its finances in order (as well as putting in place effective anti-corruption mechanism), that government would have more funds to devote to health, education, as well as creating much needed jobs, specially the health issue, because, if the haitian populace were to have the necessary medical facilities on their side of the border, the need to come to the DR to give birth to their children would drastically reduce itself, thus diminishing the numbers of the growing population of dominicans of haitian descent.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 11:32 AM
From: United States, New York City
Lautaro, that would prevent haitians from crossing the border in the FUTURE. I'm speaking specifically about Dominicans of Haitian descent now.Haiti getting her affairs in order should mean very little to them from a social perspective as they are not haitian as their parents were. As far as I'm concerned those individuals have as much business with haiti as I myself do, which is practically none(aside from curiousity).
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 11:40 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well, it depends on how you look at it, cibaeño, because it´s obvious that, as long as the dominican state and society keeps ignoring, discriminating and persecuting them, their self-identification with the land of their parents will only tend to grow, so your worrying about their discarding the official "hispanic" identity of the country is not as far fetched as many people over here would think. In fact, a lot of sociological investigations made on the last few years point out the fact that, of all the segments of the dominican population that are descendent from foreign countries, the dominicans from haitian descent are some of the ones which identify themselves the most with the land of their forefathers.
Written by: oneworld, 8 May 2008 11:42 AM
From: United States
cibaeño75, Lautaro: I do understand and respect your opinions, although I disagree with them. I was not trying to glorify what Dessalines did to colonial French habitants during the final days of the fight for Haitian independence, that was perhaps terrible judgment on his part derived mostly from the inhumanity that he suffered as a slave, and having seen the way the colonial Frenchs captured and killed his protégé Toussaint L'Ouverture, and knowing their plan to eradicate his people. But as a Haitian, to me, Dessalines is a hero, not a perfect hero, but one that liberated us from human bondage and gave us a land to call our own. Whether we human being can learn from the misdeeds of those imperfect people to ensure that their misjudgments do not repeat themselves remains to be seen...
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 11:48 AM
From: United States, New York City
"as long as the dominican state and society keeps ignoring, discriminating and persecuting them, their self-identification with the land of their parents will only tend to grow,"

I agree with you 100%. That's going to come to bite the Dominican state on the ass if it isn't addressed soon.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 11:53 AM
From: United States, New York City
"Dessalines is a hero, not a perfect hero.."

I can think of no personal heroes of mine that are perfect, either. Fact is that these are MEN we are discussing, with all that it implies. That's one of the biggest mistakes that I feel many historians make, they present to us these historical figures as if they were semi-divine.
Written by: TexasBill, 8 May 2008 12:12 PM
From: United States, Killeen, TX - Home of the 1st Cavalry
Seldom,since my childhood days in Texas, have I seen so much bigotry andracial hate being spewed forth by people in adjoining countries.
To those of Haitian descent, your mother country has been in the throws of revolution since it's inception. It has been governed by despots and greedy politicos from the very begining. The same definition applies aslo to the DR.
Both nations share a single island which has been isolated from the mainstream of civilization from the very begining. Thus, instead of focusing outward, both countries have focused inwardly and created an atmosphere of intolerance for each other due to their own interaction.
That being said, I will go even further and state that NO INTERNATIONAL ENTITY has either the authority nor the right to dictate any course of action against a sovern nation whose laws may, or may not, be contrary to that entity's philosophy.
Written by: TexasBill, 8 May 2008 12:27 PM
From: United States, Killeen, TX - Home of the 1st Cavalry
This old world does not yet have a CENTRAL GOVERNMENT which has the authority, given to it by ALL NATIONS, to act, or to issue edicts which are contrary to the laws of individual soverign nations such as has been done in the case of the children born to Haitian Parents in the DR. That case is without prescedent in the anals of International Law and is prima facia without authority, no matter what spin one places on it.
If the DR government elects to expel the Haitian population from within it's borders, it has EVERY RIGHT to do so. It matters not, in this discussion, who, what, nor how, all these people arrived in the DR. It is the sole prerogative of the DR government to deport them and/or to allow them a continued residency.
The World Court totally ignored the provisions of the Haitian Constitution which states that any child born of Haitian parents is automatically a Haitian Citizen andwhose birth should be registered in Haiti, not necessarily the country born in.

TB
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 12:32 PM
From: United States, New York City
"It is the sole prerogative of the DR government to deport them and/or to allow them a continued residency."

It's the sole perrogative of DR's sons and daughters to change, or at least attempt to change, whatever they do not like or care for in said country's government and part of initiating change includes having dialogue.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 8 May 2008 12:41 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
If your a Dominican being investigated for fraud blame Haitians. Lights dont work in SD blame Haitians. Too much traffic on streets blame haitians. Dont have a job blame Haitians. Your wife is not giving you no loving, blame Haitians. But at the same time your idiotic politicans are smuggling those same nasty, dirty, vile, Haitians that are taking over your country. This type of bulls*** makes me sick.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 8 May 2008 12:44 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
And arcatype tell your mother to renounce her nationality because this well never change as long as there's an island called Hispaniola.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 May 2008 12:58 PM
From: Haiti
I alot of nonsense is being thrown around here and thanks to lautaro,cibaeno, and TB's observation. Arcatype ask your mother what the americans think of your mother although holding the same passport as them. Does she speaks english and have intergrated in the american society? People like this are the worse nothing but hypocrites. Haiti will be haiti and DR will be DR. Lautaro, alot of dominican haitians barely can speak creole. I see your point but they majority know nothing about haiti. Dominican of haitian descent have no allegiance with haiti.
Written by: TexasBill, 8 May 2008 1:04 PM
From: United States, Killeen, TX - Home of the 1st Cavalry
jemesouviens1804, Et Al

I agree with you partially, old son, but there are plenty of reasons beyound what you alledge that come into play over this ongoing exchange of slavering rhetoric.
Bigotry and predjudice isat work on both sides with the goal of laying the blame at the doorsteps of the opposition.
The fact remains is that Dominicans, as a people, don't want Haitians within their borders, regardless of the desires of the Haitians themselves nor of thedesires of those who would open the borders for free and easy access.
It just ain't never going to happen, so accept it andquit bitching about something you can do nothing about since it has been going on for centuries by people of the same mindset on both sides of the border.
Then there is thedeep-rooted animosity created by the Haitian occupation way back when, when there were many atrocities committed by the soldiers and govrnment officials of the time.
You do read history, don't you? Do so with a clear mind.

TB
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 1:12 PM
From: United States, New York City
"nor of thedesires of those who would open the borders for free and easy access."

Who are these individuals that desire free and easy access across the border? I'm curious.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 1:17 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well, cibaeño, some people over here would tell you: "The jesuits, Solange Pierre and her people of MUDHA, the international NGO´s, the governments funding them and other scum of the same ilk". However, the truth, as you´ve already told is that the same elites that are pointing fingers at them are the ones making this free and easy access a reality. It´s really a nasty and complicated situation.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 1:28 PM
From: United States, New York City
I know the answer to that one, Lautaro, but thank you for indulging me anyway. I was very interested in hearing who someone such as TB would consider the culprits.
Written by: CarlosFranco, 8 May 2008 1:36 PM
From: United States, Brooklyn
Jander: "Why should we open our borders to anyone? Why can't Haitians make their own country work?" Thats what i been telling all the dominican-haters in this forum... whose country have enought problem to keep them occupied.

TexasBill: I agree with you 100% "dominican gov. has the right to expell the hatians if it so wished it.

Haiti is it's own nation and the West should not expect a poor country to look out for people when their own people are poor and suffer daily.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 May 2008 1:39 PM
From: Haiti
Dominican Republic is a sovereign country and immigration laws must be respected but we all know that undocumented haitians are the only targets. The would gladly hand a birth certification to others. I feel that immigration of undocumented haitians must be curtailed and laws upheld. But these scare tactics as to an invasion and war are talks for people that like to hallucinate and politically motivated.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 2:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Why is it that haitian woman cross the border illegaly to give birth to their children in the Dominican Republic tell me why? is it because Haiti lacks the facilities namely hospitals for these woman to have the 4 to 5 even more children, i mean seriously they need to stop giving birth to so many children in a country that lacks food, water, shelter, employment. If you cant feed yourself why do you have so many children. The Dominican Republic is not being flooded by no other ethnic group then those crossing the border from Haiti 2 million and counting, so stop it with the cheap lies and excuses. The haitian goverment has proven itself to be extremely inept too many times ever since the duvalier regime, aid has come in the form of money and food and nothing changes the growth of the population goes up and poverty continues to expand. The dominican goverment has to continue deporting illegals but their strategy is not adequate enough to stem the tide of human misery that crosses
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 2:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., The border. The only way to discourage illegals from coming to the country is to sanction the employers, but unfortunately the dominican elite's are exploiting the haitian illegals by paying miserable wages to these illegal workers. And money is ending up in the pockets of the goverment, so the unemployed dominican national is being screwed. The goverment has to be mindful of the problem that this will create as time passes by.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 3:27 PM
From: United States
MrDom, 7 May 2008 6:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
You are right about the law NYCDR... and you are right about everthing you said... I could not say it better

MUCHAS GRACIAS........ :)
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 3:40 PM
From: United States, New York City
"The goverment has to be mindful of the problem that this will create as time passes by. "
You mean the problem it has created already.Do you honestly think that there would be any illegal haitians in DR if the powers that be didn't want them there?The border's not the big and the Dominican military is excessively large for a country the size of DR.It doesn't take a master strategist to realize that the Dominican military could've sealed the border long ago.Hell,they did it during the disturbances in Haiti in the mid nineties!It's a known fact that among the biggest tranporters of illegal haitians are Dominican military personnel.No mire hacia los haitianos. Mejor mire bien a los dominicanos que estan involucrado en este lio.The poor haitian,like poor people everywhere,will go wherever there's work for him and I'm not one to blame him or her for doing so.Blame the individuals who's duty it is to maintain the border and the national integrity of the Dominican state but do not.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 3:52 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, you are missing the point completely. Dude, its not a matter of being of feeling dominican, hell I know of african americans, jews, russians and puerto ricans that feel act and say that they are dominicans. They were not born nor raised in DR, nor do they have any close blood line or relation to DR. But they feel patriotic, sing the national anthem and love everything about our culture. Their vacations and plans are to and for DR (and its not pretend).
My question: if they are hungry and you only have 1 piece of bread for you and your family would you stop from feeding your family and provide to any of these individuals?
Please answer honestly. Yes you would give it to them or no you feed your family.
dont give me long answers please.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 3:55 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno75, are you haitian? I need to ask the question. It is great and noble what you believe but its a matter of resources. Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 4:05 PM
From: United States, New York City
Mi socio yo soy mas Dominicano que mucho Dominicano. Soy cibaeño cien por ciento y tengo los rasgos que la gente identifican con mi region, o sea que no soy un Dominicano de color.

"Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration."
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 4:07 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno75,.The poor haitian,like poor people everywhere,will go wherever there's work for him and I'm not one to blame him or her for doing so.Blame the individuals who's duty it is to maintain the border and the national integrity of the Dominican state but do not.

??? Dude, that is anyone and anywhere. The laws are there to be held. According to what you are saying the military is to blame for 12 year old haitian girls giving birth at astronomical numbers to gain citizenship? Whao!!!
I dont know how hard you think these people work. I am not alone when I say that lots of people complain of haitians mediocre workstyle.
Finally, if the shoe was in the other foot, how sensible and willing to help and to accept would the haitians be on these same issues. Do you think they would be better or worse than us?


Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 4:20 PM
From: United States, New York City
A 12 year old haitian girl. Yea, like she's going to have the ability to get to, say, Santiago all on her lonesome. I'll bet that you, gordo y colorao from being here in the states, would have a hell of a time making it from any point on the haitian border to santiago penniless, let alone a 12 year old in an impregnated state. It''s obvious that these individuals are transported.Do people even think before they make their posts?As for the shoe being on the other foot frankly it doesn't matter to me. I'm concerned with my compatriots who are being denied their rights in the here and now. I live in the real world, not in hypothetical situations.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 4:29 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration."
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that. I'm still waiting.

Written by: MrDom, 8 May 2008 4:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Cibaeño its obvious that you have lived your whole life in the USA... that's why you don't understand how risky can be to give birth certificates to any haitian born in our country... that will encourage more haitians to cross the border illigally.. that means that will be more poverty, less jobs for dominicans, less oppotunities etc, etc.....

So as a DOMINICANO tha really care for my country and its future, the law should continue being the same "birth certificates for legal immigrants" just for them......
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 4:40 PM
From: United States, New York City
MrDom, que sabe tu sobre adonde yo haz pasado mi vida? Don't assume, brother. By you reffering to yourself as a Dominicano that really cares for his country are you trying to insinuate that I am one that does not?
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 4:42 PM
From: United States, New York City
"that's why you don't understand how risky can be to give birth certificates to any haitian born in our country."

Entonces sacamos los huesos de Luperon del Panteon nacional. Now wouldn't that be absurd?
Written by: MrDom, 8 May 2008 4:50 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Sorry cibaeño but I didn't mean that you don't care for our country... just wanted to exalt my feelings for my country and why I agree that all those children born in the DR from illegal immigrants should stay in the same condition (it sounds hard but as I said before if we don’t do so more Haitians will cross the border illegally just to give birth and…….. that means that will be more poverty, less jobs for Dominicans, less opportunities etc, etc.....
Written by: MrDom, 8 May 2008 4:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
"Entonces sacamos los huesos de Luperon del Panteon nacional. Now wouldn't that be absurd?"

He was a great man in our history but not because we had great Dominicans having Haitian roots we will change our law.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 May 2008 6:18 PM
From: United States, New York City
"that means that will be more poverty, less jobs for Dominicans, less opportunities etc, etc....."

you're just repeating soundbites. I heard the same arguments here when someone proposed not granting citizenship to the children of illegals here in the states. I though that such a policy was wrong for this country then and I think that the same policy is wrong for dr now. Everything in this life is reciprocal. Every action has a reaction. All Dominicans should bear that in mind when they consider the fact that DR has millions of sons and daughters who are living in other countries. And to address something esle you were alluding to: The dominican diaspora has a voice, though it may not be organized the way it should be just yet, abd it's the right of all Dominicans ANYWHERE on the planet to have an opinion on the going ons of their home country. Without our remittances alone the dominican economy would find itself in serious trouble. No one should ever forget that.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 8 May 2008 8:02 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
well all I have to say is that history has a way of repeating itself and what goes around definitely goes around.
Written by: JRRubirosa, 8 May 2008 8:16 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Jemesouviens: Why Don't You do something proactive for Your own country???

You sound like a child without personality......................
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 8:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Reading your post i come with the impression that you want to grant birth certificates to every haitian that is "transported into the country with the help of dominican authorities"? do you not know how ignorant you sound when you say such stupidity. As far as Gregorio Luperon he was born in Puerto Plata his mother was born in St. Thomas one of the U.S. Virgin Islands and his father was a haitian big deal he was born in D.R. not Haiti. You got to ask the question why haitians have always crossed the border even in the past?, Is it because we want their presence in our country no!. It's because of all the internal wars that were going on in Haiti, after all their failed incursions into the established Dominican Republic. Did you know that Jean Pierre Boyer and his troops hated the whites that lived on the eastern side of the island for 22 years it was pure hell for many future dominicans. and even dominican's that were former slaves hated the way they were being treated.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:05 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont.,They were virtually still in slavery, the only difference was that they owned a small plot of land. And whatever they produced from that very small plot was for their own consumption. All the money was going back to Haiti, and a percentage of that hard currency was going to France to pay for their debt due to the killing of all the french colonizers and slave holders. Something dominicans had nothing to do with o.k. mr. "cibaeno75"?. So please stop it with the sympathy towards anything haitian, let me tell you mr. im from El Cibao also home to the bravest dominicans. It was the cibaenos that always were the most numerous in all the wars against the haitians so take more pride on that!
Written by: rom1804 This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:08 PM
From: Zimbabwe
Where ever theres a JRRubirosa there will always be a rom1804.
Here is my philosophies on all of this.

Step.
1) We conquered them ( Didn't work for too long they gained their independence)

2) We try to buy them out ( That didn't work out neither we were bankrupt in the process)

3) Now we are trying to breed them out ( So far so good) Even the international community is on board with that idea. Thanks for the support France , USA, Canada. You see as long as we have 2 different race on a small island like Hispaniola there will always be those type of issues since now we realize its easier and speedier to darkened the whole island instead of going the Trujillo way. It will take about a good 70 years of hard breeding to get the whole island looking like Sri Lankans while a good 200+ years is need to even get close to Argentinian skin tone. Now Haiti will always be the dominant nation because Dr doesn't have any History.
DR history doesn't even make a 8.5 X 11 page.

Vive A
Written by: rom1804 This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:22 PM
From: Zimbabwe
All the money was going back to Haiti, and a percentage of that hard currency was going to France to pay for their debt due to the killing of all the french colonizers and slave holders. Something dominicans had nothing to do o.k. mr. "cibaeno75"


And you proudly call yourselves LATINOS and your people didnt make any contributions to anything. None- Zero.The Haitians fought and gave you your freedom. Then we the Haitians fought and gave supplies to Simon Bolivar to give Latin America Freedom. We the Haitians fought and help the Americans during the American revolution. What have you done Mr. Dominicans beside stabbing Haiti in the back every time you get a chance. You see you have no history and you know what they say about people with no History.
Written by: rom1804 This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:23 PM
From: Zimbabwe
They don't Exist.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:25 PM
From: Dominican Republic
rom1804 We dont have a history excuse the hell out of me, the question remains what country claims so staunchly to have freed it self from slavery. And today enslave their own children, (Restaveks) and were the second independent nation in the hemisphere to be today the most poor of all and have a goverment that's ineffective at all levels. Tell me about your pride?
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic
rom1804 First we were not all slaves!, second nobody invited you to our side of the island. And third youre ignorance is overwhelming, and as far as our history is concerned you dont know what the hell your talking about PERIOD.
Written by: rom1804 This user is banned, 8 May 2008 9:43 PM
From: Zimbabwe
When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also declare that the white man does not abide by law in the ghettos. Day in and day out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions of civil services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them, but they do not make them, any more than a prisoner makes a prison.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 May 2008 9:59 PM
From: Haiti
I gosh all the nut cases have been let out of there cells. Anyway, I think most of you dominicans really aren't thinking b4 typing. Arcatype, get a book and read history Boyer didn't hate the whites it was DEssaline..Boyer was whiter than half the dominican population a very fair mulatto. So stop distorting history for the sake of denying haitians that are undocumented what the Dominican citizenship. I am not saying haitians in haiti but we are talking haitians undocumented living in the DR for 30 plus yrs. BTW, these domincans of haitian descent or as much dominican as you are and even more since they live and breath dominican culture. Let's start denying dominicans in Puerto Rico US citizenship and in Spain and the mainland. You guys would make a bachata song out unfair treatment and discrimination. I hope you guys feel the same for your compatriots on foreign soil.. Again this is going to bite DR in the arse in a decade or so when these angry stateless dominicans start
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 May 2008 10:05 PM
From: Haiti
demanding things that will aide them to excel in the dominican society. Again undocumented haitians should be regulated and deported but denying them papers is out right systematically discriminatory..Funny thing is a blue eyed baby from gringos that are illegal have no problem getting a b.c. actually they are praised to be called a dominican...c'mon guys if you guys rant about advancement and still think premature. Those dominicans just deserve a chance just like illegal dominicans in the USA having babies. I know dominicans that live in the DR that have visas and go to the USA just to give birth and stick the bill to the USA taxpayers..now that should be a federal crime..and they go back to the DR...is that fair.. i can't wait to usa start going back pre civil rights..i would love to see if you react the same..chickens will come home to roost..
Written by: rom1804 This user is banned, 8 May 2008 10:06 PM
From: Zimbabwe
arcatype, Haiti is still fighting and resisting to this day slavery, imperialism, oppressions. Dude look at Haiti right now its a dump I say it and Im 100% Haitian Haiti is a dump BUT who's dump is it? Look at the Bahamas beautiful country but who's country is it? Can the Bahamians do as they please politically "NO" Look what happened to Puerto-Rico sure they nice buildings and DR has "METROS" but are they free as a nation to do whatever they please "NO". I would rather see Haiti stay as a dump for another 200 years then seen her being sucked up by the Vampires. Its like fattening a pig before the feast and that's what they do to you my friend.

First they make it bad, then they come with solutions pretending to be saviors while they were the perpetrators in the first place.
When I see on the news that Haiti is always being labeled as the poorest nation I used to get upset but now when I see that label now it assures me that Haiti is still FREE.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 10:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I couldn´t have said it better myself, jabao. It astounds me everyday the lenghts that some people are willing to go to sustain their misguided prejudices. Granted, the dominican state can´t give itself the luxury of accepting every inmigrant that wishes to escape his/her country's poverty, but it's an act of outright injustice to bring them here, exploit them til' the last drop of sweat, then deny them the rights that they have won by their hard work.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 10:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Jabaohaitian Jean Pierre Boyer was a very dark mulatto and he did hate whites, you people are always in denial when you are corrected! and again he invaded the country he was not invited. When he arrived in Santo Domingo the people of the eastern side of the island were not able to do anything because the country was economically in bad shape. Due to the fact that Spain was also in shambles with the expulsion of the french from their territory, spain was also economically in bad shape and no supplies were being shipped to la espanola. Or any of its former colonies mainly because they had become independent themselves, so when Boyer entered Santo Domingo with his contingency Jose Nunez De Caceres handed the keys of the city himself to Jean Pierre Boyer as a gesture of peace. But the real reason was because the country was not prepared for warfare at that point because of what i wrote from the beginning of my post! But essentially we did not want to be part of Haiti.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 10:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What´s the point to all of that, arcatype? reliving the past all over again will not help us adress today's issues. Instead of reminiscing why fulano did this and that, we should be focusing in the search for solutions to the dilemma at hand. Although I´m something of an historian myself, even I can´t fail to recognize that more often than not it´s a fool´s errand to be dwelling on the what-ifs of the past.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 10:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The past is important Lautaro it shows the type of people that you are dealing with, and i dont want by any means to become alike or close to anything like Haiti. So if you can't accept that reality then your stuck on stupid! because in Haiti these people are encouraged to enter our country because they lack the drive to do anything positive for the betterment of their society. How long can we wait until the goverment of Haiti get it's act straight, i tell you we can't wait we got to take care of our own and we got to forget about Haiti. A goverment that dont serve the interest of its people dont deserve handouts unless they prove you wrong.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 8 May 2008 11:24 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
If you dont have proof to back up your claim that Boyer was a racist or whatever you said he was I think you should let his name rest in peace. Or mr. Arcatype, I can say what I feel about your heroes. As a matter of fact I think the only racist here is you with your constant bashing of Haiti. Maybe you need to go sit on ruby lap...You two would make a good couple.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 11:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Mr. 1804 Again youre wrong, apparently your suffering from denial! it's a disease prevalent in Haiti.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 8 May 2008 11:57 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Who supressed the use of the spanish language?, who put into effect that whites (criollos-spaniards) could not own any land? Who encouraged the closing of all the institutions of the city of Santo Domingo including schools and the university? To whom he enforced a curfew upon? who expelled the land owners elites from the country most being from Spain?. Who encouraged but failed in his attempt the mass emigration of black american former slaves into the country, to repopulate the land and at the same time to discourage an uprising from the spanish and criollos. But also to use the former black american slaves as indentured servants to further enrich the haitian elites and himself and pay there debt to France. Who? but the despot and racist Jean Pierre Boyer o.k.!!!!!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 12:02 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., And why we became rightfully independent from the haitian yoke, because of what i posted.
Written by: rom1804 This user is banned, 9 May 2008 7:51 AM
From: Zimbabwe
when Boyer entered Santo Domingo with his contingency Jose Nunez De Caceres handed the keys of the city himself to Jean Pierre Boyer as a gesture of peace. But the real reason was because the country was not prepared for warfare at that point because of what i wrote from the beginning of my post! But essentially we did not want to be part of Haiti.

Don't want to be part of Haiti uh?
TOO LATE For that why don't you move to Mars then Space Boy. The Haitians are taking over and we don't even need an army to do so we are doing it with our poor. New 21st century strategy find out its working pretty well. and theres nothing you or Rubi can do about that. Like I said before Arcatype be careful of what you wish for you always claim you are not racist and that you want Haiti to start handling its own and I see a strong Haiti will only means the extinction of the Dominicans. If Haiti stays poor arcatype you will hold on to your sovereignty a little longer TRUST ME
Written by: MrDom, 9 May 2008 7:59 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
poor haitians....... poor haitians!!!! thats all I can say....... now you undestand cibaeño.... if not look at the comment above.....
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 May 2008 8:34 AM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Haitians are always living in total denial and this is the main reason why They will never stop being "Mediocre"
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 10:20 AM
From: Haiti
MrDom, have you read my comments. Please dont read the ones with content like mine as well b4 making assumptions. Again, I will reiterate that dominican republic has the right to deport undocumented haitians..but those that have been there over 2 decades that have babies on dominican soil are denied a birth certificate which is need for everything formally. I hope you guys re-consider because in a decade when shit hit the fan it ain't going to be nice. Alot angry dominicans will be even more disenfranchised and will cause a division in the country. I hope you guys understand the consequences..Hopefully but that time haiti will be in a position to help the chaos waiting to spill over. And you abroad domincans talking b.s. when usa gets economically hit hispanics are the first one and dominicans are not on the list as wanted immigrants. Hope you have a Plan B. Im out..i can't read more nonsense..and Rom1804 please stop writing. u sound like a fool and a nutcase.
Written by: Anonymous, 9 May 2008 10:33 AM
From: United States
Rom1804 i do not agree with you 100%, i don't think you should characterize that haitians are taking over DR. This is what Dominicans don't want, and I personally don't think would be fair for haitians to be taking over a side that is not theirs. Knowing the history of the island, I am sure if the economies were switched haitians would deny the citizenships of dominicans after their numbers were too big for comfort. In terms of Haiti, I personally don't want it to be a dump for another 200 years just to oppose imperalist powers. I think if anything, haitians should get their behind and educate themselves, so they can use the imperalists to their advantage. IF being a dump was so beneficial, i don't think so many haitians would be crossing the border to be ridiculed and jeered at by confused "Colored" dominicans. I rather the world powers developing haiti and getting jobs there for the poor. I feel its good to take a step backward in order to take 10 steps forward.
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 May 2008 10:48 AM
From: United States, New York City
"It was the cibaenos that always were the most numerous in all the wars against the haitians so take more pride on that!"

Arcatype,you're an idiot if you construed anything I wrote as displaying a lack of pride in being Dominican. On top of that your grasp on history is shaky at best, displayed by the fact that you called Boyer a dark mulatto, which he was not. Toma este link para que aprenda mi hijo, que usted aun vive en la oscuridad sobre lo que es la historia Dominicana y el papel de nuestro pueblo durante la ocupacion haitiana:
http://books.google.com/books?id=....t1B0XgC&pg=PA104&dq=haiti,+santo+domingo,+boyer&lr=&sig=bIxcYsB_z26dZ2jlngtzXpPWyvo#PPA94,M1
In the context of this thread, that Luperon was of haitian ancestry is a big deal. It demonstrates that a person is no less of a dominican because his parents were haitian. Hell, luperon was more of a Dominican then anyone posting on this page and few can argue with that.


Written by: Anonymous, 9 May 2008 10:52 AM
From: United States
In this world there are always pros and cons. I am all about the haitian government achieving stability and ending some corruption, to create foreign investments. Development won't come to haiti overnight, but complete freedom sometimes come at a cost. Even in the US, people are not totally free. I think most poor haitians in DR wouldn't mind foreigners owning businesses in haiti. I think its better to be in your country owned by foreigners, than being in a country where you are second class citizens. FYI, to no extent i want haiti to be owned by mostly rich foreigners and haitians being poor. There should be a mix economy in haiti with both foreign and state buinesses. Foreign investors should pay low taxes, and told to develop schools and build roads for haitian communities. Similar to how digicel works in haiti.
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 May 2008 11:00 AM
From: United States, New York City
"poor haitians....... poor haitians!!!! thats all I can say....... now you undestand cibaeño.... if not look at the comment above..... "

Mi socio aunque usted no esta de acuerdo con lo que varios comentaristas han dejado dicho aqui eso no significa que uno debe juzgar un pueblo entero. Those are the comments of individuals who have their own opinions, which is their right.
I'm not advocating for a wave of haitians to inundate DR. I wouldn't want that at all. But right is right. I've met Dominicans of Haitians parents who were being denied there rights. It's a horrible situation and frankly I'm ashamed that more of my countrymen don't sympathize with their fellow countrymen simply because the status of their parents when they were born in dr(they shouldn't be made to pay for their parents' actions. That's unjust),and where there parents came from(cubans in transit giving birth in DR would be given birth certificated if they asked. I know personally of a case such as this).
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 May 2008 11:21 AM
From: United States, New York City
"Who supressed the use of the spanish language?, who put into effect that whites (criollos-spaniards) could not own any land?"
http://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/abril2008/abril200819.htm
Read that link CAREFULLY arcatype. So much for the supposed suppression of the Spanish language. As for whites not being able to own land: Do you mean to tell me that the majority of the families of white origin in the cibao region with deep roots in said region acquired most of their land holdings AFTER the haitian occupation? Well it must be according to you, arcatype, becaue the haitians didn't allow whites to own land. Fact is certain families in the cibao have owned the same land since well before the haitians. All you're doing, arcatype, is repeating propaganda, not history. Like I said, arcatype, your grasp on history is very weak.
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 May 2008 11:35 AM
From: United States, New York City
Jabao, the other day we were discussing something and you let me know that you didn't want to dwell to much in history, you felt that centomparary issues had to be addressed to bridge the gap between haitians and dominicans and I mentioned that history is vital to that process. This thread is a clear illustration of my point. Until the past remains obscured and mired in elitist revisionism it will be difficult to counter the mindframe that such a lackluster understanding of history creates.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 11:39 AM
From: Haiti
Cibeano, I commend you for your objective opinions regarding this delicate issue. It's ashame that you are called antipatriotic for justice for your countrymen. These posters sound like minutemen and radicals. I just hope they feel the same when their behinds are in the frying pan in the USA bunch of hypocrites. How does this conflict with being a proud dominican that you are is mind boggling? To my haitian nationals that are posting dumb garbage please stop throwing gas in the fire. Rom1804, you are a demented young man. Your pride is hot air sense you are comfortable in the USA now and have escaped poverty in Haiti. You are no better then these dominicans abroad talking sh%*. Cause neither of you are facing the everyday struggles on the island. I also think the haitian government should be held accountable too. What's fair is fair? Haiti is in need of foreign investment not some welfare package with strings attach which is a band aide on a soar.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 11:46 AM
From: Haiti
Cibaeno, you are absolutely correct but I was referring to people that know history and see the wrongs on both sides thus me initiating the commeroation of dominicans in Haiti for our wrong doings to our neighbour and vice versa. I wasn't talking about the half pea brains that transform history for their own stance on present day issues. The sad thing is arcatype is an immigrant or an american of dominican descent. Let the USA strip his blue passport I bet you he'll by screaming not to be sent to DR for Good not on vacation.jajajjaj..and the comment about his mother renouncing her dominican citizenship because of too many haitians. As I said La Doña probably can't speak a lick of english. I wonder how americans will view her. Life is a circle and it does come back to bite you in the arse. I guess people forget dominicans are in precarious status in alot of countries and these countries can use the discriminatory practice just on that premise. Becareful for what you wish for.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 11:58 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Your a damn fool straight up, if we lived so comftarbly with the haitians why did we become independent after 22 years of total oppression. Your first link is about a book based on allegories using the historical narrative but with changes implemented to fit a perspective, read the title again!!!!! and the other link about Rafael Leonidas Trujillo is fake, do you believe all these pro-haitian websites cibaeno75 you've been had.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 12:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., The title of the book in question Haitian-Dominican counterpoint: nation, state and race on Hispaniola. If you carefully read the center part it says - "What would the island of Hispaniola look like if viewed as a loosely connected system?" Again?????
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 1:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic
And Jabaohaitian your probably a mulatto living in a nice suburb in Haiti on top of a hill, with a view to the city not caring for those poor black haitians if they had anything to eat. Jabaohaitian you dont know me stop the charade!
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 May 2008 1:05 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Arcatype: good job debating so many non sense people, specially the ones that want to bury Dominican Republic growing and progress.

I admire Your courage and determination debating with so many enemies of our homeland, specially Cibaeno75 which is always debating ideas that are quite unique for the other side of the island benefit.

I never believe that Cibaeno75 is "Dominican" at all, is quite clear on his comments but I guess that He got his nickname to divert some attention from the general public.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 1:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic
JR RUBIROSA These are the type of Dominicans Juan Pablo Duarte warned us about, as he stated so wisely - Mientras no se escarmiente a los traidores como se debe, los buenos dominicanos seran siempre victima de sus maquinaciones.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 1:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Read some of the excerpts on this book, based on historical events not on personal views - http://books.google.com/books?id=....;cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR3,M1
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 May 2008 1:44 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
arcatype: thanks for the illustration and once again keep the good work on behalf of our nation and against people with fake identities (Cibaeno75)
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:44 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75,
El que nacio en el mismo suelo que me vio nacer tiene el mismo derecho que yo a llamarse "Dominicano", a mi no me importa que sea chino, rojo o prieto y a la tierra no le importa tampoco

Your words!
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:45 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno,
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that. I'm still waiting.

Dude, I am not online all the time I have a life.
Another thing, I AM A GIRL... YES A G-I-R-L!!!
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:50 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, I dont know what to say other than What does Luperon have to do with the lack of resources and the abuse of a neighboring country?
You want to connect the 2. Good for you! we live in the now. If you want to thank the past people for doing great things lets start with Benjamin Franklyn who did great things but believed that there should be one race! and that races should not mix!!
:) horayhh
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:58 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, I understand your sentiment but the reality is that we are a poor country. Okay, the girls were not brought by themselves to the middle of the country, their parents brought them! whao. And even if was a market of human trafficking, it has to stop.

Dominican Republic is always being bullied to help a nation that needs to help itself. If the foreign governments are so pro-haitians then bring funding and innovation to the country. Why preach about your neighbor not helping. Teach them how to take care of themselves! there are many haitians living abroad why dont they start by coming back home and bringing their wealth and what they have learned outside of their country to make their country better!
WE do !!!! so can they!!!
Written by: MrDom, 9 May 2008 2:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Wow I never thought you were a girl NYCDR... you really are a especial one... I feel glad to see the opinion of a woman in this site.... and about cibaeño there is nothing "wrong" about what he wants... if Dominican Republic could have the resources to give to everyone (health, education etc), but sadly we cannot......................
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 May 2008 2:11 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
NYCDR: Very good points about your comments, to my opinion Cibaeno75 is not "Dominican"
and the funny part about it I don't get the point why He is not honest saying that He is actually a Haitian with a personal agenda like Mr. "Josean" and so many frustrated people.

They must get their act together and move on, the real racist people are haitians that are always complaining about colors like black, white, purple, medium light skin, mulato, mestizo, medium rare black, 100% black, half white-half black, etc.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 2:23 PM
From: Haiti
NYCDR, Sweety I understand that DR doesn't have the resources to take every single haitian that is in need. That shouldn't be debated, we are talking about dominicans of haitian descent that have never set foot in haiti and many can't speak creole to save their lives. So you are saying that all these kids having babies in the DR are haitian. C'mon. Let's not talk about NYC where dominicans are having babies at a young age and dropping out of school like it was out of fashion. DR is a sovereign country and one has to respect the laws but it is quite obvious there is some injustice. I hope that many of you support the minutemen to get hispanics that are illegal with kids born in the usa back to wherever they came from. And the bashing of Cibaeno is ridiculous and calling him haitian is weak. Like I said when the republicans get in office and the dollar weakens further I hope you guys have a plan B. Maybe we could get them to finish the construction.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:44 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian, ?
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:46 PM
From: United States
Jabao Haitian I HAVE TO CORRECT YOU ON YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT DOMINICANS........
Let's not talk about NYC where dominicans are having babies at a young age and dropping out of school like it was out of fashion
FIRST OF ALL, HOW MANY DOMINICANS DO YOU REALLY KNOW.
I AM INSULTED TO SAY THE LEAST.
DUDE I WENT THRU COLLEGE AND I MUST SAY THAT THE BIGGEST MINORITY GROUP IN COLLEGE AND GRADUATING OUT OF COLLEGE ARE D-O-M-I-N-I-C-A-N-S AND OR OF DOMINICAN DESCENT.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:47 PM
From: United States
i dont know where you are getting your references from but while in college the mayority of minorities were not of any other nation and believe it... i didnt see a haitian, ecuadorian or mexican club of students.
you better check yourself before you through your comments.
ignorante.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:48 PM
From: United States
throw
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:50 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian,
So you are saying that all these kids having babies in the DR are haitian. C'mon

Lets get serious here, can you honestly tell me that if the shoe was on the other foot Haitians will giving citizenship like its going out of style??

dude you are not fooling me..
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:51 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitioan,
I hope that many of you support the minutemen to get hispanics that are illegal with kids born in the usa back to wherever they came from

Sweetie? Let me tell you THE WORD - ILLEGAL MEANS NOT LEGAL PERIOD.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:52 PM
From: United States
MrDom, 9 May 2008 2:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Wow I never thought you were a girl NYCDR... you really are a especial one... I feel glad to see the opinion of a woman in this site.... and about cibaeño there is nothing "wrong" about what he wants... if Dominican Republic could have the resources to give to everyone (health, education etc), but sadly we cannot......................

You are making me blush........
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 2:53 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 2:23 PM
From: Haiti
I guess you approve of the scanders laws. Where bums come over your property and stay for a while and now to evade them you must either pay them or give them the property?
sad sad sad. :(
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 3:03 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian, You must check the statistics under the CUNY system alone in NY to go thru the rude awakening.
Let me correct an error. College graduate of dominican parents. Born in NYC. Parents came into the country with residence and stayed in the country legally.
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 May 2008 3:10 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
NYCDR: You truly mesmerized me "GIRL" count me from now on on your fan club membership for hitting the target right on the middle.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 3:11 PM
From: United States
JRRubirosa, thanks for your comments. I believe that their is racism.
But Racism has absolutely nothing to do with the problems DR has concerning their government, the lack of opportunities, the gap in education, the deteriorating hospitals, and many many other problems.
We dont need an extra baggage of even less developed people with sickness and economical problems to add up to the burden.

That is what I am trying to get at.

Why bow down to pressure from foreign gov't to tell us that we need to help this people out and if DR does not do so its because we are racist? get serious.

Let them take this people into their countries, make them citizens and give them the jobs and health care we (the racist dominicans) dont want to give! and actually dont have. :(
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 3:12 PM
From: United States
JR Rubirosa, I M BLUSHING...
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 3:27 PM
From: Haiti
NYCDR, Hun you are fired up and letting your emotions get the best of you..Calm down. Listen, I agree that undocumented haitians must be repatriated but you can't deny the fact that the cheap labour of these undocumented haitians haven't helpt DR in its transition toward progress. Let's not get into dominicans and haitians progress in the USA. You know that many dominicans have not used the opportunities and alot are illegal waiting to marry a legal person. Sweety I know alot of dominicans besides my wife is dominican we meant in the DR and she is middle class. So Im not talking out of my a$$. I have been to NYC and yes alot of dominicans have been progressing but far too many are fitting the stereotypes. This goes for many immigrant groups and to say that you never met a haitian in college or an ecuadorian is absurd your patriotism is clouding you brain. If the show was on the other foot I would still feel the same way..Repatriation of illegals and recognising those born there.
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 3:34 PM
From: Haiti
Marginalising an ethnic group isn't just and will cause more conflict when these kids want to further their education and be productive dominicans. Do you see what the future of disenfranchise dominicans of haitian descent in the DR. They sure ain't going to move to haiti after they see us as foreignors and know nothing of haitian culture. Hun, please understand that i respect the law and don't condone disorder or any form of informalities. I am for deportation of undocumented haitians in a civil manner. And please don't bring race into this since it will open up more cans spilling with worms on DT. I hope you meditate on what im saying b4 typing with emotions. Take care hun, and congrats on graduating college. Im sure your parents are proud. Now would have accomplish this in the DR? Have a blessed mother's day weekend. :)
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 4:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Jabaohaitian wether you like it or not those children born from illegal haitians, are considered haitian. That's why they receive a pink birth certificate. And yes the deportations will continue and the marginalization will ever be encouraged. So creole should not be hard to learn when your living on the same communities!
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 5:14 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian, could you please stop with the endearments. Its not appropriate. Its underminding me.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 5:16 PM
From: United States
jabaohaitian

This goes for many immigrant groups and to say that you never met a haitian in college or an ecuadorian is absurd your patriotism is clouding you brain

Dude, you misread me, I said that the number of ecuadorians or haitian or any other minority is not that big or accountable as DOMINICANS ARE IN NUMBERS IN THE CUNY SYSTEM. DUH
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 5:17 PM
From: United States
JabaoHaitian,

You know that many dominicans have not used the opportunities and alot are illegal waiting to marry a legal person

Not as many as other nationalities. Check your census and you will see we are not in the lead.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 5:19 PM
From: United States
Sweety I know alot of dominicans besides my wife is dominican we meant in the DR and she is middle class. So Im not talking out of my a$$.

Now you are being BULGAR!!!

I GUESS IS NO surprise.
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 5:23 PM
From: United States
About JabaoHaitian,
This is a sad pathetic excuse for a man to address women in a bulgar manner. Sir, I hope that if you have daughters they dont confront this kinds of wordings and behaviors.

Sir, please do not address me again in this forum or any other we may encounter ourselves.
I dont tolerate this language from anyone
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 May 2008 8:32 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
NYCDR: once again You do have the magic touch and once again let me be on your fan club membership #1 member.

We need people like You defending our country founding fathers foundation and legacy from people that want to destroy our identity, culture and homeland.

You are truly a "Dominican" patriot...................May God bless You MISS
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 9 May 2008 8:37 PM
From: Haiti
NYCDR, i've been very respectful and I apologise if you took my warmth words such as sweety, hun as undermining. In Latin America these are words of endearment and have no sexual connotation or meant to deamon the most beautiful creature on the face of this earth. I think you've been conformed by the cold american culture. I am not being *vulgar* at all and I apologise if you read me that way senorita. I have daughters and I do hope that they are respected as equal but no how to distinguish kind words for vulgar. Again if you were in the DR would have had those opportunities. Again have a blessed weekend young lady. I hope you meditate on what we've discuss today. We live in a world where mediocrity must not be tolerated. And just because you are a woman doesn't mean u shouldn't be told like it is. Being a women is not a handicap although treated with respect should not expect any breaks from the truth. I respect your opinions hope you respect mine. yes jabao haitian
Written by: TexasBill, 9 May 2008 8:46 PM
From: United States, Killeen, TX - Home of the 1st Cavalry
These discussions have had the effectr of becoming "down anddirty" and that has inevitably overflowed to the families of each.
The discussion has reached the level ofsickening rhetoric forced by sheer emotion and lack of logic or comprehension.
When will people learn to engage their brain before starting the motor of their mouth?
Maintain you individual self-discipline or don't enter into any discussions.
That's the best and only comment I will make over all the crap I have read here, written by people whose grasp is narrow to say the least.
one should strive to contribute equitably to a discussion and do so without rancor and/or without resorting to purposeful commentaries designed to ellicit negative and emotional responses which will not do anything but ellicit a like retaliation. Things go downhill from there.
Learn to recognize these types of posters for what they are anddon't respond equally.

TB


TB
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 9 May 2008 9:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Marginalized haitians living in Dominican Republic - <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QXYrwrfI...."></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QXYrwrfIbeE&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Written by: cibaeño75, 11 May 2008 9:27 PM
From: United States, New York City
" the other link about Rafael Leonidas Trujillo is fake, do you believe all these pro-haitian websites cibaeno75 you've been had. "
That comes from a Dominican website. El instituto de Genealogia Dominicana es una organisacion compuesta netamenta por Dominicanos pariguayo.
"if we lived so comftarbly with the haitians why did we become independent after 22 years of total oppression"
Never said we lived comfortably. Your're attributing remarks to me that I did not make. What I did do was illustrate that the era is not so clear, cut, and dry as you make it out to be. It had intricacies that you obviously fail to grasp.
NYCDR, indeed DR is a poor country but because it is poor does not mean it should cease to be just. Poverty is a poor excuse for injustice. El que nacio y se crio ahi de ahi debe ser y punto.
Y el que quiere llamarme traidor a mi cara fijan cita y hablamo ma' tranquilo. I'm in New York and I'll be in Santiago in July. juanfgerman@netscape.net
Written by: cibaeño75, 11 May 2008 9:39 PM
From: United States, New York City
During Santana's time there was a saying among the troops the liberated DR:"No importa el color que sea lo importate es que hable claro"(Soto Jimenez). This was a reference to the individuals that were fighting to seperate the nation from haiti. It didn't matter if many of them were black, as a large percentage were, or that many were of haitian descent, as indeed many communities in DR at the time consisted of second generaton haitians who had been hispanisized through contact with their neighbors, what mattered was they they were spanish speaking.That was it. That was the main rallying cry of the time. The average Dominican peasant of the time, which were the vast majority of the population, did not think in such abstract terms as we do now as to what constituted their countrymen, the person they were willing to fight alongside with, language was enough for them because if color had been an issue an army to expel the haitians would have never been raised.
Written by: cibaeño75, 11 May 2008 9:44 PM
From: United States, New York City
All these abstractions that are being attributed to and for Dominican citizenship is just an example of the Dominican state borrowing a bad page from societies such as that of Germeny, were purity laws hide under the guys of citizenship requirements. I doubt very much if Santana ever lost sleep over the the legal status of the parents of the myriad of soldiers of Haitian descent that were fighting in his ranks. Santana probably wouldn't even be able to grasp the concept of someone not being from where they're born and raised.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 11 May 2008 10:09 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Tu eres el pariguayo!, cuando el haitiano sea mayoria a los dominicanos la tierra se lo va tragar. No hable pendejada que el haitiano nunca a sido amigo del dominicano tu eres un analfabeto aprende a leer, tu no entiende lectura basica baboso!!!!!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 11 May 2008 10:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 What source do you have for all your discourse none, just because youre brainwashed that dont mean people got to agree with what your saying. First understand what you read then talk!!!!! You definitely a haitian that name dont fit you at all sonny.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 11 May 2008 10:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic
What's next Juan Pablo Duarte is a freaking haitian!!!!!
Written by: Jander, 11 May 2008 10:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Here somebody please create www.hatiantoday.com

Congratulations! The following domains are available
haitiantoday .com
.net


www.networksolutions.com
Written by: cibaeño75, 11 May 2008 10:42 PM
From: United States, New York City
I gave my sources. If you lack the reading comprehension to distinguish what they are then that's unfortunate for you. That you would consider anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint on this issue as somehow un-dominican is also unfortunte and troubling. It just demonstrates how easy one such as yourself would be willing to tow an authoritarian line without much room for debate as long as the demagogue speaking is saying something to your liking.This from a person who alludes to some superior literary abilities in his postings. I dread, then, how easy the peasantry and common man in DR can one day be manipulated by someone with fiery speaches promising to castigate the "other" on a day the it might hit the fan, when a diversion from a horrible domestic situation might be needed.I'm not saying it will happen but in little ol' DR the ingredients for such a scenario are indeed there and that fact alone is extremely saddening to someone who loves his people and humanity such as myself.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 11 May 2008 10:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 What source do you have give me a link, about the last thing you spoke about!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 11 May 2008 10:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 This has nothing to do with racial purity most dominicans are a mix of three races. We cannot absorb the population of another country it's that hard for people to understand? and we should not!!!!!
Written by: chillaxin201 This user is banned, 11 May 2008 11:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
The reason why I sad that the U.S. is anti Haitian is because they have raided Haiti several times. Each time they do Haiti gets worst, the last time the U.S, sent 200 Special Forces soldiers to D.R. to train those that where against President Jean Bertrand Aristide.
Aristide was receiving medical aid form Cuba. “You know the U.S. doesn’t like that”
Aristide was trying hard to fix Haiti but that in no way is an easy thing to do. And yes they are trafficking drugs in Haiti, but stopping that is not an easy task for anyone.
Please read the links below before you comment. Thank you.


http://www.democracynow.org/2004/....nesses_u_s_special_forces_trained

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit....s_occupation_of_Haiti_(1915-1934)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004....troversy_regarding_US_involvement


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_H._Hanneken


Don’t let these people Sonia Pierre, Jan Batiste Latorti make you believe that just because some o
Written by: cibaeño75, 11 May 2008 11:31 PM
From: United States, New York City
All the the information regarding Santana's era can be verified in the the first link I gave you regarding the haitian occupation and in the writings of the historian Soto Jimenez. Arcatype, of course we cannot absorb Haiti's population. That's absurd. All I'm calling for, and please pay close attention, is to sort out those individuals who were born and raised on dominican soil and grant them what they deserve and lack, namely dominican citizenship. I also feel that all illegal haitian immigrants should be deported, immediately if possible. No matter what anyone says their presence on Dominican soil hurts wages for lower skilled Dominican workers in their own country as does the presence of illegals here in the States..It's not hard to understand that the two things are independent of each other.
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 12:38 PM
From: United States
NYCDR, indeed DR is a poor country but because it is poor does not mean it should cease to be just. Poverty is a poor excuse for injustice. El que nacio y se crio ahi de ahi debe ser y punto.
Y el que quiere llamarme traidor a mi cara fijan cita y hablamo ma' tranquilo. I'm in New York and I'll be in Santiago in July. juanfgerman@netscape.net

I hope you dont get a heart attack!!!
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 12:41 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, you must calm down dude its a discussion. Its a shame that if we dont agree then we have to answer by saying anytime and in my face if you dare!
dude, I dont know what is your problem, but I honestly didnt expect you to respond as you did!
This is sad...:(
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 12:45 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75,
NYCDR, indeed DR is a poor country but because it is poor does not mean it should cease to be just. Poverty is a poor excuse for injustice. El que nacio y se crio ahi de ahi debe ser y punto.
Y el que quiere llamarme traidor a mi cara fijan cita y hablamo ma' tranquilo. I'm in New York and I'll be in Santiago in July. juanfgerman@netscape.net

Juan F German, I am in NYC too!!! I am also heading to DR in JULY (la capital) so what, just because I dont agree with you it means...I have to go and fight you... you are barbaric!!!
This is why a lot of people prefer not to say anything to these brave macho mentalities still lurking about.
I dont appreciate your comment, I cannot believe that you would actually ask a woman to fight you.Leaves a lot to be desired as a man.

Written by: cibaeño75, 12 May 2008 12:46 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Cibaeno 75, you must calm down dude its a discussion. Its a shame that if we dont agree then we have to answer by saying anytime and in my face if you dare! "

Maam, rest easy. That comment wasn't directed at you. At no time did you refer to me as a traitor on this thread. You've been very respectful on this thread and as such I can only reciprocate. With that said I was thinking to myself the other day that it's a shame that Dominicanas don't come on here and comment on a regular basis. I'm glad to know that at least one does.
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 12:47 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno75, I just reread. I dont consider you a traidor, I just dont agree with you!!! PERIOD!!!
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 12:54 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75,
That's absurd. All I'm calling for, and please pay close attention, is to sort out those individuals who were born and raised on dominican soil and grant them what they deserve and lack, namely dominican citizenship. I also feel that all illegal haitian immigrants should be deported, immediately if possible.

Ok, so you say lets sort them out. Here is the problem. Do you see the channel 41 news which should be called MEXICANNEWS. There is always some illegal immigrant crying that their parent is being deported and what is going to happen to the kids (who cannot live without their parent) or something along those lines... Please... if you start sorting out these the govt will have an astronomical number of orphans than what it already has...
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 12:57 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, your comment is noble but you cant save them all.
They all have to be deported PERIOD.
You are quoting the German govt puritan laws. Dude that is not called for. DR is not Germany and the Haitians are not the Jews...(who by the way were educated professionals and artist with money and property at the time of WWII ).
We are not using the Haitians as scapegoats and turtoring them because we are blaming them for our economical and social problems..dude that is just ludicrous!!!
Written by: cibaeño75, 12 May 2008 1:16 PM
From: United States, New York City
Let me ask you a simple question NYCDR: Do you think that the children of illegal immigrants here in the states should be given American citizenship?

"We are not using the Haitians as scapegoats and turtoring them because we are blaming them for our economical and social problems..dude that is just ludicrous!!!"
No one said that. Read carefully what I wrote concerning the possible scapegoating of haitians in Dominican society. And Germany does have VERY strict CURRENT laws regarding who might become a citizen over there. It disenfranchises local born individuals of non -ethnic german origin.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 12 May 2008 4:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Your theory is unfounded and that book is a study that tries to harmonize similitudes between the Dominican Republic and Haiti as i already stated by using the historical narrative to fit their perspective. But reality and someone's view are two different things.
Written by: NYCDR, 12 May 2008 8:35 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno75, : Do you think that the children of illegal immigrants here in the states should be given American citizenship? ANSWER: NO

I believe I answer that clearly from the very beginning. ILLEGAL=NOT LEGAL PERIOD whether is here in the states or DR or anywhere!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 9:02 AM
From: United States, New York City
"Do you think that the children of illegal immigrants here in the states should be given American citizenship? ANSWER: NO"

That is your opinion and I respect it. I, however, feel differently.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 9:02 AM
From: United States, New York City
"But reality and someone's view are two different things."

Finally I agree with something you posted.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 9:31 AM
From: United States, New York City
"... using the historical narrative to fit their perspective."

Are you saying that which is presented as part of the historical record in said book is not accurate?
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 13 May 2008 1:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Read the whole post, it's very clear what i expressed. You are taking several words on a sentence and making no sense!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 1:11 PM
From: United States, New York City
You're the one making no sense. I'm sorry if your english comprehension skills are lacking. Magibat's book (the link I provided for you which contained information on the haitian occupation)is historically accurate. His take on the relationship between the Dominican and Haitian people is the only novelty in his work.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 1:33 PM
From: United States, New York City
Arcatype, I'm tired of going back and forth so I'll end this once and for all since you have already discredited yourself on this thread (by claiming that "El instituto de geneaolgia Dominicana's"
website was bogus and of haitian origin. To attempt to debunk as false actual facts is a worn tactic of those who cannot make their points on legitimate gounds). Mabigat's book is basically a hypothesis for which he makes an excellent case for by utilising the historical record, something which you defeinitely have no grasp on and as such you would do yourself a great service by reading Mabigat's book. On a final note you asked me never to refer to you on a post again. I will do so but note that you were the first to initiate our distasteful exchange by categorizing me as a fool, a comment that was uncalled for as I made no personal comments at all directed at your person up to that point.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 1:34 PM
From: United States, New York City
PS Arcatype, if you can debunk any historical facts that are presented in Mabigat's work that was posted on this page then please do so.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 13 May 2008 2:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic
"Cibaeno75"? Your pathetic and ignorant also extremely pro-haitian, mr. eugenio matibag is an afro-centrist that tells you enough about his character and ideals.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 2:44 PM
From: United States, New York City
"mr. eugenio matibag is an afro-centrist that tells you enough about his character and ideals. "
LOL..That's not debunking the facts!!That's debunking the man.One is definitely easier to do then the other.El patetico es usted que se pone a insultar la gente atraves de este madio.Estoy segurisimo que un "hombre" como usted jamas se atreviera hablarle a una persona al frente de su cara de la forma que usted se dirigio hacia mi persona,calificandome de traidor y no se que mas. LOL. Nope.You would never speak like that to a person to their face. Enjoy puffing your chest out over you keyboard because that's the only pathetic vehicle that you have from which to lash out on with no consequences to your physical person. Los cobardes les dan las gracias a Dios diariemante por el internet.LOL. Again,si te siente verdaderamente macho yo voy estar en Santiago en julio y posiblemente ire a la capital. A mi me encantaria introducirte al dablo:) my email's above.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 13 May 2008 3:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Calm down, litsen i dont agree with the author's formula at any level. My opinion is very clear the Dominican Republic has to protect it's sovereignty from those that seek to destroy the country, from a pacific but very blatant invasion from Haiti by haitians, the goverment of Haiti is not there to be found. Haiti is a failed state with many problems, if you want D.R. to go backwards instead of moving forward then you would want to legalize the more then 1.5 million or 2 million haitians that reside illegaly in the country. That will make our country more poor then what it is as it stands, and that will discourage investment because in Haiti nobody want's to invest in a country with no safety and no real infrastructure. The birth rate in Haiti is the highest in growth in latin america what that means to the dominican state more people more problems if you dont understand that, then your an idiot. And your pro-haitian stance is very suspicious, only someone that is haitian.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 13 May 2008 3:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., will be so adamant about this matter.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:17 PM
From: United States, New York City
Thank you.Now you are speaking in a more civil tone.Now we can exchange ideas and/or opinions or just finally agree to disagree. Just for the record I am not haitian and if I were I would declare it to the winds proudly. I would never pretend to be someone I'm not nor do I have a need to.I don't want to legalize ALL the haitians living in DR. Negativo. I want to legalize those individuals of haitian parentage who were BORN and RAISED in DR (the number of these individuals has to be significantly smaller then the first figure you cited). And let me reiterate, there needs to be a tightening of the border ASAP.I worry about the dilusion of Dominican culture due to a haitian influx, same as you, but I just sincerely feel that Dominican society as a whole is being unjust to the children of haitians that are in the country. Besides, if these people aren't fully integrated soon all that will happen is that their alienation will create a fifth column within the Dominican state over time.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:23 PM
From: United States, New York City
Also arcatype you would do yourself a great service by reading Mabigat's book. Just from a historical perspective his book is invaluable even if you disagree with his conclusions regarding the relationship between both states on hispaniola.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:25 PM
From: United States
Arcatype, I will agree with most of the last statement
That will make our country more poor then what it is as it stands, and that will discourage investment because in Haiti nobody wants to invest in a country with no safety and no real infrastructure.

That is the real issue. Before you can save someone you must first safe yourself!!!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:26 PM
From: United States, New York City
I'm dominican that's why I'm so adamant about the matter. I sincerely feel that some of my countrymen are being disenfranchised by the Dominican government and that bothers the hell out of me and I sincerely feel that it's an injustice. That's why I'm so concerned over this issue.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:41 PM
From: United States
Gentlemen, name calling and macho man stands are not necessary.
We have the right to have different views on matters.
It s freedom of speech and right of disagreement. Different sentiments.

Cibaeno75, I understand your modern belief that anyone has the right as long as it was born in the country. Its a very nice modern view, since I know first hand that old school Cibaenos really believe.
Dude gutsy of you! and honestly MODERN I applaud that of you!

Cibaeno75, I am not a racist. I am DOMINICAN!!! That is for whom I care to get the BEST THINGS FOR, for whom I care to do the best things for!!!

I am to fight for my family, not yours.
Its your duty to fight for yours.
It is the duty of the haitians to go and get their act together, not ours.
DOMINICANS.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:42 PM
From: United States, New York City
"The birth rate in Haiti is the highest in growth in latin america what that means to the dominican state more people more problems if you dont understand that, then your an idiot. "

Haiti is a seperate entity with it's own national space. As long as the border with haiti is secure, which it can be, haiti's birth rate should be of no concern to DR. The idiots in this case would be the Dominican political class who have failed to monitor the borders of the Dominican state properly.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:48 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Cibaeno75, I understand your modern belief that anyone has the right as long as it was born in the country. Its a very nice modern view"

It's not a modern view. The nation I reside in, the US, has considered anyone born within it's territory regardless of the legal status of their parents as citizens since the founding of the American Republic over two centuries ago. Same thing for DR. This law that doesn't give status to the children of people in transit is truly a modern phenomenom, or view if you will. For most of Dominican history children of Haitians were regarded as Dominicans.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:51 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, I'm dominican that's why I'm so adamant about the matter. I sincerely feel that some of my countrymen are being disenfranchised by the Dominican government and that bothers the hell out of me and I sincerely feel that it's an injustice. That's why I'm so concerned over this issue.

???could you please care to enlighten me on the matter? how so?
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:54 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75 DUDE I AM IN NEW YORK CITY- MANHATTAN TOO!!!
It's not a modern view. The nation I reside in, the US, has considered anyone born within it's territory regardless of the legal status of their parents as citizens since the founding of the American Republic over two centuries ago.

Again, you I understand your view. but Dude we are saying you cant save them all...its unfair that people who come over a land illegally and have sex during transit or at the location now have the same rights as people who are there legally!!!

Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:56 PM
From: United States, New York City
NYCDR, you'll see references to what I was speaking on in the thread. I was reffering to those individuals who were born and raised in DR who are the offsprings of Haitians residing illegally in DR. I already know how you feel about them so no need to reiterate that particular opinion that you hold back to me. Hope I I cleared up that which was nebulous to you:)
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:57 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, the children of illegal haitians are considered dominicans, its their parents that have no legal residency nor citizenship. So you can rest at ease!!!
if it was up to me. I will send them home. You have to discourage the breaking of the law!! not give an incentive for people to continue to break it!!
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:58 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, so now my head is in a fog!! LMAO
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 3:59 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, you are funny!!!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 3:59 PM
From: United States, New York City
"its unfair that people who come over a land illegally and have sex during transit or at the location now have the same rights as people who are there legally!!!"

We've already established that you and I hold opposing views on this matter. I know your here in the States! I always try to post for a general public when possible even if I'm addressing an individual. Manhattan? I'm in Manhattan now. LOL. I'm a brooklynican myself:)
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:00 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Cibaeno 75, the children of illegal haitians are considered dominicans"

No they are not!!...That's what the whole fracass is about.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:01 PM
From: United States
Cool!
You are!
I guess I better get my boxing gloves on!!!
: )
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:02 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, RELAX. You have foreign govts and the catholic church pleading your case!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:02 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Cibaeno 75, so now my head is in a fog!! LMAO"

diache yo nunca dije eso..lol
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:03 PM
From: United States
lmao, you are funny!!!
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:05 PM
From: United States
Tan tan taaaaaaaaaaaah, Cibaeno 75, DEFENDER OF HAITIAN dominicans
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:08 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Cibaeno 75, RELAX. You have foreign govts and the catholic church pleading your case!"

All those foreign governments AND the catholic church can go to hell on this issue as far as I'm concerned. I don't want change in this policy to come as a result of pressure from outside. I'm hoping that Dominicans realize the injustice that is being committed against their own on their own and act accordingly when they do.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:10 PM
From: United States
I'm hoping that Dominicans realize the injustice that is being committed against their own on their own and act accordingly when they do.

Are you serious!!! you dont get it. THEY ARE NOT DOMINICAN!!!
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:12 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, ONE QUESTION: If you have a cat give birth in your house without your consent. Do the kittens now have the right to your property to call themselves by your last name?
I am being nice here!!
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:13 PM
From: United States
could I ask a personal question? you dont have to answer if you dont want to...
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:15 PM
From: United States, New York City
"Tan tan taaaaaaaaaaaah, Cibaeno 75, DEFENDER OF HAITIAN dominicans"
LOL..so be it. The other day I was watching "To Kill A Mockingbird" for like the umpteenth time and once again Atticus Finch became my hero. Sometimes we have to try to do what we feel is right even if it's going to make us unpopular or even hated by those that would otherwise be acquaintances or freinds as Atticus did. Sometimes the right thing to do is the hardest. I'm no Atticus Finch but I'd like to strive to be more like him if possible.
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:16 PM
From: United States, New York City
Yes you can. But I might not answer...LOL..go ahead.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:17 PM
From: United States
are married engaged have children?
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:17 PM
From: United States
Whao the classics. Love the idea, not practical in this case. Its a matter of survival not a matter of difference and making a stance.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:19 PM
From: United States
how old are you again?
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:21 PM
From: United States, New York City
I'm 32 (33 on Friday) , married, no children....and integrity and justice are practical in every case.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:25 PM
From: United States
Okay, thanks
Happy birthday!!!
can I ask what is she?
ethnicity and skin complexion
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:28 PM
From: United States, New York City
ethnicity:latin, skin complexion:light..lol..here's the link to my myspace page. You won't be able to view the whole page unless I accept a freinds invite but it'll give you an idea as to what the person you have been correspong with looks like. The pic is almost a year old, though. Definitely need to update.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.....viewprofile&friendid=16991966
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 4:29 PM
From: United States, New York City
And thanx for the Happy Birthday..you're the first one!
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:33 PM
From: United States
Saw your picture, thanks for sharing. I dont have a picture I know a lot of people. I keep undercover lmao for safety measures.
latin? skin completion light?
specific please...
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:36 PM
From: United States
I dont mean to intrude, its just that you are being vague..
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:45 PM
From: United States
Here is what i am driving at. You may want to defend the rights of individuals to defend your offspring! but you claim that this may not be the case. I understand. You may be the genuine article but still I question your motives...you see even in the white anglosaxon world at the end of the day they will still come home to their roots.
May be you felt the stereotypes and prejudice that some of us get to experience, maybe your wife felt them and you dont want to repeat the same or bow not to..
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:46 PM
From: United States
do onto others what you dont want done onto you...
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:49 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, its great that you feel this way. I couldnt be prouder if you were my own brother. The fact is ideas and being an idealist are great when you are generalizing, but it is not practical.
even the jews whom were and are not really wanted anywhere are not taking the cause of the palestenians nor the arabs, the US is not taking care of the problems in Canada or Mexico(its not happening) and these are countries with more monetary resources than ours...
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:51 PM
From: United States
well.
happy birthday!!!!
and now a song....
from me to you...
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 4:53 PM
From: United States
I hear that its your birthday!!!
i hear you are getting old
so here is some cake and ice cream before you start to mold
HHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAPYYYYYYYYY Birthday!! birthday boyy!!

: )
: )
Good luck Dude!!!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 5:30 PM
From: United States, New York City
"You may want to defend the rights of individuals to defend your offspring! "

LOL..the day I have any indeed I will. Not only am I the genuine article but if you want you can come down and have lunch with me whenever you like. I work in downtown manhattan and you have me email.Si tu quieres conocer un Dominicano chulisimo y autentico comunicate conmigo:)
"If you have a cat give birth in your house without your consent. Do the kittens now have the right to your property to call themselves by your last name?"
Cats are cats. people are people. Unless you're trying to compare haitian to animals I don't see your point..
Thank you for the birthday song by the way:)
PS my wife has nothing to do with hispaniola whatsoever. She's American of South American descent. And stop trying to psychoanalyze me! LOL.
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 6:38 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, LMAO. I work downtown too!!!
that's cool my brother married a south american too!
opps the message with the cats was an unfinished thought!!
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 6:47 PM
From: United States, New York City
apo'ya tu sabe...I'm near bowling green park (a block away actually)..
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 7:11 PM
From: United States, New York City
apo' ya tu sabe...I work near bowling green park (one block away actually)
Written by: NYCDR, 13 May 2008 7:48 PM
From: United States
Dude, our company moved from Broad to Wall St.
Its cool, we are neighbors!!
: )
Written by: cibaeño75, 13 May 2008 8:36 PM
From: United States, New York City
cool..drop a line whenever:)
Written by: ignoranceisbliss, 11 Aug 2010 11:58 PM
From: United States
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