SANTO DOMINGO.- A veteran lawmaker today said "powerful foreign interests and local accomplices" seek to ignore the State’s legislation on nationality, immigration and civil registry, and warned Dominicans to become responsible and militant against what he described as a dangerous antinational maneuver.
The FNP party deputy Pelegrin Castillo said the National District Court 3rd Civil Chamber verdict ordering the Central Electoral Board (JCE) to issue a birth certificate to a minor of Haitian parents "is the result of machinations by those sectors which have influence in the judicial power."
"Those sectors which from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France unleash defamation and intimidation campaigns and have managed to postpone the Immigration Law from taking effect now try to revert the Supreme Court’s important decision of 2005 regarding nationality, to declare that only the children born in the national territory whose of foreign parents who have legal residence will acquire the nationality," he said.
In a press conference, the FNP leader and lawyer said the national public powers don’t have to yield before those sectors’ "blackmail and pressures. If these people have their way, we’ll be observing the beginning at the end of the Dominican Nation, because a state that cannot defend its positions regarding nationality, immigration, border and civil registry, can undeniably be considered insolvent."
Castillo said those sectors have a strategic plan to find a space in Dominican Republic to solve Haiti’s serious problems, as the cost to rebuild in his view is too high and the long term results are uncertain.
"That sentence also constitutes, an element of the plan, to implant a national minority with political rights, which is a fundamental demand of the Haitian movements organized in Dominican Republic, headed by Sonia Pierre, Jan Batiste Latorti and other leaders," the lawmaker said.
From: United States
Is this for real are the haitians really taking over are we really in that much danger.......
Written by: Edward, 7 May 2008 3:17 PM
From: United States, Leominster, Massachusetts
If i had it my way there would be no immigration laws and borders in the world!
Written by: MrDom, 7 May 2008 3:40 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
The law should continue as it is...... and all those intimidations from those countries and people won't have any effect because we Dominicans know that if they want to use us to solve Haiti’s serious problems..... they have to find a way that cannot affect our nacionality and sovereignty....that is too risky to let haitian children to be Dominicans.... They will come to DR just to give birth so their Children can be Dominican....
From: Zimbabwe
"Castillo said those sectors have a strategic plan to find a space in Dominican Republic to solve Haiti’s serious problems, as the cost to rebuild in his view is too high and the long term results are uncertain."
Why doesn't he give details of these supposed plans instead of just making allegations and practicing plain old fear-mongering?
Written by: bernies, 7 May 2008 4:01 PM
From: United States, falls church va
listen up cibaeno. will you like to have nation or two diferent nations which are dominican republic and haiti or just plain and simple dominican-haitian you let me know when you do.
From: Zimbabwe
bernies, how did you interpret my comments as calling for a unification of the two nations on the island?...deja de tai' palomiando socio. Mi patria siempre sera mi patria y no tiene nada que ver con haiti en lo territorial. My personal opinion on the subject at hand? El que nacio en el mismo suelo que me vio nacer tiene el mismo derecho que yo a llamarse "Dominicano", a mi no me importa que sea chino, rojo o prieto y a la tierra no le importa tampoco. With that said I think there needs to be a serious curtailing of illegal immigration into DR but that is something that the Dominican government could've curtailed along time ago had they really wanted to, which obviously they do not.
From: Zimbabwe
This guy Castillo wants to perpetuate the mechanisms whereby scores of my countrymen are being denied their rights as Dominicans. Men like Castillo aren't men. You can tell just by looking at him. If DR were in a war tomorrow his kind would high tail it out of there or hide themselves as best they can. Men like him didn't weild the machetes that made us who we are, nor would they ever. When a clown like that speaks on "nationalism" and related issues I tend not to listen. Los hombres se conocen de lejos. No me interesa compartir teorias sobre mi identidad con babosos con pretensiones de intelectual.
Written by: NYCDR, 7 May 2008 5:38 PM
From: United States
I thought the immigration laws where cleared. During Hipolito's (I am not his fan) presidency, there was a law passed that states that illegal haitians who give birth in dominican territory have no rights to become dominican residents nor does their child have dominican citizenship because of it! Please correct me if I am wrong on the law.
Cibaeno, the reason behind this is not because of prejudice but because of depletion of resources. Check back not long ago when the statistics showed that in Santiago there were a huge number of young girls giving birth (average age 12). The report specified the fact that children having children give birth to sick babies because their bodies were not fully developed.
Now, please check to see how many of these girls were actually dominican and of dominican descent and how many were haitian!!!
Its alarming and I understand that Haiti is no nirvana, but DR has its own problems and lacks to also carry the burden of our neighbor too!!!!
Written by: josean, 7 May 2008 5:42 PM
From: United States
cibaeño75
Pelegrin Castillo is the son of Vincho Castillo a neo fascist , neo Trujillista (now that might be redundant) who is on of "Lie-onel's" idols.
Not to long ago "Lie" declared himself a "Vinchista" and "Bochista" which is like being a worshiper of Satan and God at the same time.
But to paraphrase old Winston Churchill "Lie-onel" is an "Enigma wrapped in a Contradiction" or as an untutored peasant like me would say a blatant political opportunist!
Written by: MrDom, 7 May 2008 6:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
You are right about the law NYCDR... and you are right about everthing you said... I could not say it better
Written by: arcatype 
, 7 May 2008 6:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Haiti has the highest birth-rate in the western hemisphere and is also the least developed and poorest. The Dominican Republic cannot by any means surrender to international pressure, like i said before article 11 could be annulled in the case of Haiti. Due to the fact of what i stated in the beginning of my post. i knew this was something that sooner or later was going to make the headlines thanks to those evil N.G.O's that constantly bash the Dominican Republic for the misery of a country that has inflicted it's own wounds.
From: United States
Don’t let these people Sonia Pierre, Jan Batiste Latorti make you believe that just because some one is Pro- Dominican that they are anti Haitian or racist.
It does not make you racist to protect your sovereignty. The U.S. is very anti Haitian, and if the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France are so pro Haitian maybe they should open there borders to them.
Let us not forget who over through Haiti’s last president THE U.S.
WHO DID HAITI FIGHT FOR FREEDOM? THE FRENCE
Written by: arcatype 
, 7 May 2008 6:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic
It's funny i remember what my mother told me about what's going on in D.R. she's a dual citizen, but she told me that if things continue the way they are with so many haitians in D.R. she will denounce her nationality and become a full american citizen. This story makes me want to puke!!!!!
Written by: Jander, 7 May 2008 6:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
"The U.S. is very anti Haitian, and if the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France are so pro Haitian maybe they should open there borders to them."
Why should we open our borders to anyone? Why can't Haitians make their own country work? Why would we want to open the gates , Haiti made it's bed now it has to lay in it.
The US is anti Haitian ?, I know a lot of Haitian-Americans who love the US and support and respect it's laws. I don't think the US as a whole is Anti anything except terrorism!
We have woman and a black man running for president.
And there is a very good chance that one or the other will win.
There is also a chance they both will be in the whitehouse.
Written by: Jander, 7 May 2008 6:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic
con't
The US should not be blamed for any of the problems either of these countries have.
The US does what it can and in most case more then it should and we the taxpayers foot the bill.
Written by: arcatype 
, 7 May 2008 6:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Chillaxin201 Just to be fair we cant blame other naitions for a country that's been ruled by pseudo emperors, dictators, military strong men., that have divided the country through racial conflicts since it's inception. I was reading an interesting thread on a forum and i got to tell you i learned a couple of things that i did not know as far as racial definitions within Haiti. In a country of blacks and few mulattos. Here's the link -
http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?&t=34535 Written by: Euromax, 7 May 2008 6:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Region Cibao
what!?, they will have to respect our country! pal de vagos, if i was the president i will put evrybody "en sintura" like they say over there in other words what this country needs is a revolution!, a society change and a way of thinking also! we need more power on the region! we should stop being so, sissy!..for D.R we should do somehting fast!
Written by: arcatype 
, 7 May 2008 7:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Euromax I agree with you 100% the fact that Haiti's elite mostly mulatto hates the majority black population it dont mean that we got to take care of their poor. My solution to this problem is massive expulsion of haitians, and also draft in the dominican military every 18 year old male and female and trained them on how to use weapons, so we can prepare ourselves for a future war unless we want to become annexed to Haiti? "HELL NO" TO THAT!!!!!
Written by: Escott, 7 May 2008 8:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Sosua/Cabarete
The Haitians are coming, The Haitians are coming!!!
You throw out all the Haitians and the DR will go backwards since you cant find a Dominican to work worth a dime.
Written by: arcatype 
, 7 May 2008 10:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Thanks Escott for being so candid! we are going backwards? unlike Haiti they are moving forward? This article sounds more like hype than anything else. But then again we got to be on the look out, for those that mask themselves as innocent doves but inside are ravenous wolves!
Written by: buenoha, 8 May 2008 5:02 AM
From: Netherlands, Amsterdam
Carbelk99 you should appologize for that stupid and ignorant racist remark!
Written by: tejada, 8 May 2008 8:13 AM
From: United States
<sighs>
From: Zimbabwe
"there was a law passed that states that illegal haitians who give birth in dominican territory have no rights to become dominican residents nor does their child have dominican citizenship because of it"
Indeed that is the law but if you apply that criterion to some of the great historical figures produced by the Dominican Republic you would exclude them from being Dominican. Does anyone posting on here have the nerve to say that they're more of a patriot than Luperon was? Or even Hereaux for that matter (though he proved to be a despotic dictator no one can erase the fact that he was valiant in war and put his life on the line for the Dominican nation on several occasions. No one on here can say that), Both these men are the sons of haitians. As for Castillo, he's a coward. He knows who are the individuals in Dominican society who are perpetuating illegal haitian immigration. He's not going to call them out. Instead he makes a blanket accusation with no merit whatsoever.
From: Zimbabwe
Castillo wants to make it seem as if illegal haitian immigration is the result of some machiavellian plot being hatched by foreign governments with some "local accomplices". No one need look that far to point fingers at who is facilitating the entry of illegals into DR. It's the very elites who run DR who are to blame. It's not an international conspiracy. It's a local outrage. The haitians serve two purposes: cheap labor and a useful scapegoat everytime it hits the fan.
Written by: oneworld, 8 May 2008 10:53 AM
From: United States
cibaeño75, "No one need look that far to point fingers at who is facilitating the entry of illegals into DR. It's the very elites who run DR who are to blame" Amen to your comment.
Every election in the DR, there is a glut of Haitian bashing and scapegoating, nothing new there. As far as those who are demonizing Dessalines, it is easy in the 21st century to bash him, when it was his enemies in 1803 who started the campaign, with a plan to kill all black & mulatto Haitians aged 13 and older and re-import new Africans for the slavery business, because those older than aged 13 began to revolt. At least he was fighting to take us out of slavery and human bondage, but in 1937 more than a 100 years later your beloved Trujillo did him 100X better by ordering the DR army to butcher 50K Haitians and Black Dominicans - unarmed men, women, and children, mostly in border areas, but also in the western Cibao for no reason, like Hitler, Trujillo was trying to purify the DR.
From: Zimbabwe
onewrold, I have very little respect for the figure of Dessaline. It's my personal opinion and I base it on the historical record that has been passed down to us (my opinion on Dessalines, however, is no reflection on how I feel about the Haitian people). To me Trujillo and Dessalines are both vicious monsters. I have no respect for those that do not respect human life themselves no matter the time period or supposed circumstances that they were laboring under.
From: United States
Cibaeno75, I think you know of a man named trujillo. Sadly, he has haitian blood running through his veins. No mater what is said and done, haitians should stay on their side and dominicans on their side, but because of how the countries are run and how dominican economy is running, haitians are almost a necessity to keep investments coming to DR. If DR becomes to expensive to do business, the foreignors are going to go elsewhere. Asia seems to be a better place to go to. As for tourism, if somoene increase their military to go to war with haiti, that person should get shot. I am sure that person wants DR economy to spiral down. No matter what happens a war within two poor countries which shares the same island is asking for chaos and decades of guerilla warfare. The haitian government must step up to the plate, and the Dominican government should start seeing ways to better their neighbor while expelling illegal haitians. Sounds like a better approach, if you ask me.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 11:11 AM
From: Dominican Republic
To resume your position, cibaeño (which I also share wholeheartedly): Injustice and murder can't never be considered as a acts of justice, no matter how noble the motivation. What makes Dessalines, and Trujillo's, acts more despicable is that they committed their crimes from a victorious position, when being lenient to their opponents would have gotten them more glory than any victory on the battlefield.
From: Zimbabwe
"Cibaeno75, I think you know of a man named trujillo. Sadly, he has haitian blood running through his veins. "
And you're regurgitating this information to me because..?
From: Zimbabwe
"The haitian government must step up to the plate, and the Dominican government should start seeing ways to better their neighbor while expelling illegal haitians. Sounds like a better approach, if you ask me."
What does Haiti putting its finances in order have to do with Dominicans of haitian ancestry or their status in DR? Of course haiti needs to get her affairs in order. No brainer there. As for the deportation of illegals, I'm all for that. No arguments from me there.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 11:28 AM
From: Dominican Republic
That´s easy to figure out, cibaeño, if the haitian government were to put its finances in order (as well as putting in place effective anti-corruption mechanism), that government would have more funds to devote to health, education, as well as creating much needed jobs, specially the health issue, because, if the haitian populace were to have the necessary medical facilities on their side of the border, the need to come to the DR to give birth to their children would drastically reduce itself, thus diminishing the numbers of the growing population of dominicans of haitian descent.
From: Zimbabwe
Lautaro, that would prevent haitians from crossing the border in the FUTURE. I'm speaking specifically about Dominicans of Haitian descent now.Haiti getting her affairs in order should mean very little to them from a social perspective as they are not haitian as their parents were. As far as I'm concerned those individuals have as much business with haiti as I myself do, which is practically none(aside from curiousity).
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 11:40 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Well, it depends on how you look at it, cibaeño, because it´s obvious that, as long as the dominican state and society keeps ignoring, discriminating and persecuting them, their self-identification with the land of their parents will only tend to grow, so your worrying about their discarding the official "hispanic" identity of the country is not as far fetched as many people over here would think. In fact, a lot of sociological investigations made on the last few years point out the fact that, of all the segments of the dominican population that are descendent from foreign countries, the dominicans from haitian descent are some of the ones which identify themselves the most with the land of their forefathers.
Written by: oneworld, 8 May 2008 11:42 AM
From: United States
cibaeño75, Lautaro: I do understand and respect your opinions, although I disagree with them. I was not trying to glorify what Dessalines did to colonial French habitants during the final days of the fight for Haitian independence, that was perhaps terrible judgment on his part derived mostly from the inhumanity that he suffered as a slave, and having seen the way the colonial Frenchs captured and killed his protégé Toussaint L'Ouverture, and knowing their plan to eradicate his people. But as a Haitian, to me, Dessalines is a hero, not a perfect hero, but one that liberated us from human bondage and gave us a land to call our own. Whether we human being can learn from the misdeeds of those imperfect people to ensure that their misjudgments do not repeat themselves remains to be seen...
From: Zimbabwe
"as long as the dominican state and society keeps ignoring, discriminating and persecuting them, their self-identification with the land of their parents will only tend to grow,"
I agree with you 100%. That's going to come to bite the Dominican state on the ass if it isn't addressed soon.
From: Zimbabwe
"Dessalines is a hero, not a perfect hero.."
I can think of no personal heroes of mine that are perfect, either. Fact is that these are MEN we are discussing, with all that it implies. That's one of the biggest mistakes that I feel many historians make, they present to us these historical figures as if they were semi-divine.
From: Dominican Republic
Seldom,since my childhood days in Texas, have I seen so much bigotry andracial hate being spewed forth by people in adjoining countries.
To those of Haitian descent, your mother country has been in the throws of revolution since it's inception. It has been governed by despots and greedy politicos from the very begining. The same definition applies aslo to the DR.
Both nations share a single island which has been isolated from the mainstream of civilization from the very begining. Thus, instead of focusing outward, both countries have focused inwardly and created an atmosphere of intolerance for each other due to their own interaction.
That being said, I will go even further and state that NO INTERNATIONAL ENTITY has either the authority nor the right to dictate any course of action against a sovern nation whose laws may, or may not, be contrary to that entity's philosophy.
From: Dominican Republic
This old world does not yet have a CENTRAL GOVERNMENT which has the authority, given to it by ALL NATIONS, to act, or to issue edicts which are contrary to the laws of individual soverign nations such as has been done in the case of the children born to Haitian Parents in the DR. That case is without prescedent in the anals of International Law and is prima facia without authority, no matter what spin one places on it.
If the DR government elects to expel the Haitian population from within it's borders, it has EVERY RIGHT to do so. It matters not, in this discussion, who, what, nor how, all these people arrived in the DR. It is the sole prerogative of the DR government to deport them and/or to allow them a continued residency.
The World Court totally ignored the provisions of the Haitian Constitution which states that any child born of Haitian parents is automatically a Haitian Citizen andwhose birth should be registered in Haiti, not necessarily the country born in.
TB
From: Zimbabwe
"It is the sole prerogative of the DR government to deport them and/or to allow them a continued residency."
It's the sole perrogative of DR's sons and daughters to change, or at least attempt to change, whatever they do not like or care for in said country's government and part of initiating change includes having dialogue.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
If your a Dominican being investigated for fraud blame Haitians. Lights dont work in SD blame Haitians. Too much traffic on streets blame haitians. Dont have a job blame Haitians. Your wife is not giving you no loving, blame Haitians. But at the same time your idiotic politicans are smuggling those same nasty, dirty, vile, Haitians that are taking over your country. This type of bulls*** makes me sick.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
And arcatype tell your mother to renounce her nationality because this well never change as long as there's an island called Hispaniola.
From: Haiti
I alot of nonsense is being thrown around here and thanks to lautaro,cibaeno, and TB's observation. Arcatype ask your mother what the americans think of your mother although holding the same passport as them. Does she speaks english and have intergrated in the american society? People like this are the worse nothing but hypocrites. Haiti will be haiti and DR will be DR. Lautaro, alot of dominican haitians barely can speak creole. I see your point but they majority know nothing about haiti. Dominican of haitian descent have no allegiance with haiti.
From: Dominican Republic
jemesouviens1804, Et Al
I agree with you partially, old son, but there are plenty of reasons beyound what you alledge that come into play over this ongoing exchange of slavering rhetoric.
Bigotry and predjudice isat work on both sides with the goal of laying the blame at the doorsteps of the opposition.
The fact remains is that Dominicans, as a people, don't want Haitians within their borders, regardless of the desires of the Haitians themselves nor of thedesires of those who would open the borders for free and easy access.
It just ain't never going to happen, so accept it andquit bitching about something you can do nothing about since it has been going on for centuries by people of the same mindset on both sides of the border.
Then there is thedeep-rooted animosity created by the Haitian occupation way back when, when there were many atrocities committed by the soldiers and govrnment officials of the time.
You do read history, don't you? Do so with a clear mind.
TB
From: Zimbabwe
"nor of thedesires of those who would open the borders for free and easy access."
Who are these individuals that desire free and easy access across the border? I'm curious.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 1:17 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Well, cibaeño, some people over here would tell you: "The jesuits, Solange Pierre and her people of MUDHA, the international NGO´s, the governments funding them and other scum of the same ilk". However, the truth, as you´ve already told is that the same elites that are pointing fingers at them are the ones making this free and easy access a reality. It´s really a nasty and complicated situation.
From: Zimbabwe
I know the answer to that one, Lautaro, but thank you for indulging me anyway. I was very interested in hearing who someone such as TB would consider the culprits.
From: United States
Jander: "Why should we open our borders to anyone? Why can't Haitians make their own country work?" Thats what i been telling all the dominican-haters in this forum... whose country have enought problem to keep them occupied.
TexasBill: I agree with you 100% "dominican gov. has the right to expell the hatians if it so wished it.
Haiti is it's own nation and the West should not expect a poor country to look out for people when their own people are poor and suffer daily.
From: Haiti
Dominican Republic is a sovereign country and immigration laws must be respected but we all know that undocumented haitians are the only targets. The would gladly hand a birth certification to others. I feel that immigration of undocumented haitians must be curtailed and laws upheld. But these scare tactics as to an invasion and war are talks for people that like to hallucinate and politically motivated.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 2:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Why is it that haitian woman cross the border illegaly to give birth to their children in the Dominican Republic tell me why? is it because Haiti lacks the facilities namely hospitals for these woman to have the 4 to 5 even more children, i mean seriously they need to stop giving birth to so many children in a country that lacks food, water, shelter, employment. If you cant feed yourself why do you have so many children. The Dominican Republic is not being flooded by no other ethnic group then those crossing the border from Haiti 2 million and counting, so stop it with the cheap lies and excuses. The haitian goverment has proven itself to be extremely inept too many times ever since the duvalier regime, aid has come in the form of money and food and nothing changes the growth of the population goes up and poverty continues to expand. The dominican goverment has to continue deporting illegals but their strategy is not adequate enough to stem the tide of human misery that crosses
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 2:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., The border. The only way to discourage illegals from coming to the country is to sanction the employers, but unfortunately the dominican elite's are exploiting the haitian illegals by paying miserable wages to these illegal workers. And money is ending up in the pockets of the goverment, so the unemployed dominican national is being screwed. The goverment has to be mindful of the problem that this will create as time passes by.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 3:27 PM
From: United States
MrDom, 7 May 2008 6:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
You are right about the law NYCDR... and you are right about everthing you said... I could not say it better
MUCHAS GRACIAS........ :)
From: Zimbabwe
"The goverment has to be mindful of the problem that this will create as time passes by. "
You mean the problem it has created already.Do you honestly think that there would be any illegal haitians in DR if the powers that be didn't want them there?The border's not the big and the Dominican military is excessively large for a country the size of DR.It doesn't take a master strategist to realize that the Dominican military could've sealed the border long ago.Hell,they did it during the disturbances in Haiti in the mid nineties!It's a known fact that among the biggest tranporters of illegal haitians are Dominican military personnel.No mire hacia los haitianos. Mejor mire bien a los dominicanos que estan involucrado en este lio.The poor haitian,like poor people everywhere,will go wherever there's work for him and I'm not one to blame him or her for doing so.Blame the individuals who's duty it is to maintain the border and the national integrity of the Dominican state but do not.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 3:52 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, you are missing the point completely. Dude, its not a matter of being of feeling dominican, hell I know of african americans, jews, russians and puerto ricans that feel act and say that they are dominicans. They were not born nor raised in DR, nor do they have any close blood line or relation to DR. But they feel patriotic, sing the national anthem and love everything about our culture. Their vacations and plans are to and for DR (and its not pretend).
My question: if they are hungry and you only have 1 piece of bread for you and your family would you stop from feeding your family and provide to any of these individuals?
Please answer honestly. Yes you would give it to them or no you feed your family.
dont give me long answers please.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 3:55 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno75, are you haitian? I need to ask the question. It is great and noble what you believe but its a matter of resources. Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration.
From: Zimbabwe
Mi socio yo soy mas Dominicano que mucho Dominicano. Soy cibaeño cien por ciento y tengo los rasgos que la gente identifican con mi region, o sea que no soy un Dominicano de color.
"Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration."
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that.
Written by: NYCDR, 8 May 2008 4:07 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno75,.The poor haitian,like poor people everywhere,will go wherever there's work for him and I'm not one to blame him or her for doing so.Blame the individuals who's duty it is to maintain the border and the national integrity of the Dominican state but do not.
??? Dude, that is anyone and anywhere. The laws are there to be held. According to what you are saying the military is to blame for 12 year old haitian girls giving birth at astronomical numbers to gain citizenship? Whao!!!
I dont know how hard you think these people work. I am not alone when I say that lots of people complain of haitians mediocre workstyle.
Finally, if the shoe was in the other foot, how sensible and willing to help and to accept would the haitians be on these same issues. Do you think they would be better or worse than us?
From: Zimbabwe
A 12 year old haitian girl. Yea, like she's going to have the ability to get to, say, Santiago all on her lonesome. I'll bet that you, gordo y colorao from being here in the states, would have a hell of a time making it from any point on the haitian border to santiago penniless, let alone a 12 year old in an impregnated state. It''s obvious that these individuals are transported.Do people even think before they make their posts?As for the shoe being on the other foot frankly it doesn't matter to me. I'm concerned with my compatriots who are being denied their rights in the here and now. I live in the real world, not in hypothetical situations.
From: Zimbabwe
"Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration."
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that. I'm still waiting.
Written by: MrDom, 8 May 2008 4:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Cibaeño its obvious that you have lived your whole life in the USA... that's why you don't understand how risky can be to give birth certificates to any haitian born in our country... that will encourage more haitians to cross the border illigally.. that means that will be more poverty, less jobs for dominicans, less oppotunities etc, etc.....
So as a DOMINICANO tha really care for my country and its future, the law should continue being the same "birth certificates for legal immigrants" just for them......
From: Zimbabwe
MrDom, que sabe tu sobre adonde yo haz pasado mi vida? Don't assume, brother. By you reffering to yourself as a Dominicano that really cares for his country are you trying to insinuate that I am one that does not?
From: Zimbabwe
"that's why you don't understand how risky can be to give birth certificates to any haitian born in our country."
Entonces sacamos los huesos de Luperon del Panteon nacional. Now wouldn't that be absurd?
Written by: MrDom, 8 May 2008 4:50 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Sorry cibaeño but I didn't mean that you don't care for our country... just wanted to exalt my feelings for my country and why I agree that all those children born in the DR from illegal immigrants should stay in the same condition (it sounds hard but as I said before if we don’t do so more Haitians will cross the border illegally just to give birth and…….. that means that will be more poverty, less jobs for Dominicans, less opportunities etc, etc.....
Written by: MrDom, 8 May 2008 4:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
"Entonces sacamos los huesos de Luperon del Panteon nacional. Now wouldn't that be absurd?"
He was a great man in our history but not because we had great Dominicans having Haitian roots we will change our law.
From: Zimbabwe
"that means that will be more poverty, less jobs for Dominicans, less opportunities etc, etc....."
you're just repeating soundbites. I heard the same arguments here when someone proposed not granting citizenship to the children of illegals here in the states. I though that such a policy was wrong for this country then and I think that the same policy is wrong for dr now. Everything in this life is reciprocal. Every action has a reaction. All Dominicans should bear that in mind when they consider the fact that DR has millions of sons and daughters who are living in other countries. And to address something esle you were alluding to: The dominican diaspora has a voice, though it may not be organized the way it should be just yet, abd it's the right of all Dominicans ANYWHERE on the planet to have an opinion on the going ons of their home country. Without our remittances alone the dominican economy would find itself in serious trouble. No one should ever forget that.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
well all I have to say is that history has a way of repeating itself and what goes around definitely goes around.
From: United States
Jemesouviens: Why Don't You do something proactive for Your own country???
You sound like a child without personality......................
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 8:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Reading your post i come with the impression that you want to grant birth certificates to every haitian that is "transported into the country with the help of dominican authorities"? do you not know how ignorant you sound when you say such stupidity. As far as Gregorio Luperon he was born in Puerto Plata his mother was born in St. Thomas one of the U.S. Virgin Islands and his father was a haitian big deal he was born in D.R. not Haiti. You got to ask the question why haitians have always crossed the border even in the past?, Is it because we want their presence in our country no!. It's because of all the internal wars that were going on in Haiti, after all their failed incursions into the established Dominican Republic. Did you know that Jean Pierre Boyer and his troops hated the whites that lived on the eastern side of the island for 22 years it was pure hell for many future dominicans. and even dominican's that were former slaves hated the way they were being treated.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 9:05 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont.,They were virtually still in slavery, the only difference was that they owned a small plot of land. And whatever they produced from that very small plot was for their own consumption. All the money was going back to Haiti, and a percentage of that hard currency was going to France to pay for their debt due to the killing of all the french colonizers and slave holders. Something dominicans had nothing to do with o.k. mr. "cibaeno75"?. So please stop it with the sympathy towards anything haitian, let me tell you mr. im from El Cibao also home to the bravest dominicans. It was the cibaenos that always were the most numerous in all the wars against the haitians so take more pride on that!
Written by: rom1804 
, 8 May 2008 9:08 PM
From: Zimbabwe
Where ever theres a JRRubirosa there will always be a rom1804.
Here is my philosophies on all of this.
Step.
1) We conquered them ( Didn't work for too long they gained their independence)
2) We try to buy them out ( That didn't work out neither we were bankrupt in the process)
3) Now we are trying to breed them out ( So far so good) Even the international community is on board with that idea. Thanks for the support France , USA, Canada. You see as long as we have 2 different race on a small island like Hispaniola there will always be those type of issues since now we realize its easier and speedier to darkened the whole island instead of going the Trujillo way. It will take about a good 70 years of hard breeding to get the whole island looking like Sri Lankans while a good 200+ years is need to even get close to Argentinian skin tone. Now Haiti will always be the dominant nation because Dr doesn't have any History.
DR history doesn't even make a 8.5 X 11 page.
Vive A
Written by: rom1804 
, 8 May 2008 9:22 PM
From: Zimbabwe
All the money was going back to Haiti, and a percentage of that hard currency was going to France to pay for their debt due to the killing of all the french colonizers and slave holders. Something dominicans had nothing to do o.k. mr. "cibaeno75"
And you proudly call yourselves LATINOS and your people didnt make any contributions to anything. None- Zero.The Haitians fought and gave you your freedom. Then we the Haitians fought and gave supplies to Simon Bolivar to give Latin America Freedom. We the Haitians fought and help the Americans during the American revolution. What have you done Mr. Dominicans beside stabbing Haiti in the back every time you get a chance. You see you have no history and you know what they say about people with no History.
Written by: rom1804 
, 8 May 2008 9:23 PM
From: Zimbabwe
They don't Exist.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 9:25 PM
From: Dominican Republic
rom1804 We dont have a history excuse the hell out of me, the question remains what country claims so staunchly to have freed it self from slavery. And today enslave their own children, (Restaveks) and were the second independent nation in the hemisphere to be today the most poor of all and have a goverment that's ineffective at all levels. Tell me about your pride?
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 9:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic
rom1804 First we were not all slaves!, second nobody invited you to our side of the island. And third youre ignorance is overwhelming, and as far as our history is concerned you dont know what the hell your talking about PERIOD.
Written by: rom1804 
, 8 May 2008 9:43 PM
From: Zimbabwe
When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also declare that the white man does not abide by law in the ghettos. Day in and day out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions of civil services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them, but they do not make them, any more than a prisoner makes a prison.
From: Haiti
I gosh all the nut cases have been let out of there cells. Anyway, I think most of you dominicans really aren't thinking b4 typing. Arcatype, get a book and read history Boyer didn't hate the whites it was DEssaline..Boyer was whiter than half the dominican population a very fair mulatto. So stop distorting history for the sake of denying haitians that are undocumented what the Dominican citizenship. I am not saying haitians in haiti but we are talking haitians undocumented living in the DR for 30 plus yrs. BTW, these domincans of haitian descent or as much dominican as you are and even more since they live and breath dominican culture. Let's start denying dominicans in Puerto Rico US citizenship and in Spain and the mainland. You guys would make a bachata song out unfair treatment and discrimination. I hope you guys feel the same for your compatriots on foreign soil.. Again this is going to bite DR in the arse in a decade or so when these angry stateless dominicans start
From: Haiti
demanding things that will aide them to excel in the dominican society. Again undocumented haitians should be regulated and deported but denying them papers is out right systematically discriminatory..Funny thing is a blue eyed baby from gringos that are illegal have no problem getting a b.c. actually they are praised to be called a dominican...c'mon guys if you guys rant about advancement and still think premature. Those dominicans just deserve a chance just like illegal dominicans in the USA having babies. I know dominicans that live in the DR that have visas and go to the USA just to give birth and stick the bill to the USA taxpayers..now that should be a federal crime..and they go back to the DR...is that fair.. i can't wait to usa start going back pre civil rights..i would love to see if you react the same..chickens will come home to roost..
Written by: rom1804 
, 8 May 2008 10:06 PM
From: Zimbabwe
arcatype, Haiti is still fighting and resisting to this day slavery, imperialism, oppressions. Dude look at Haiti right now its a dump I say it and Im 100% Haitian Haiti is a dump BUT who's dump is it? Look at the Bahamas beautiful country but who's country is it? Can the Bahamians do as they please politically "NO" Look what happened to Puerto-Rico sure they nice buildings and DR has "METROS" but are they free as a nation to do whatever they please "NO". I would rather see Haiti stay as a dump for another 200 years then seen her being sucked up by the Vampires. Its like fattening a pig before the feast and that's what they do to you my friend.
First they make it bad, then they come with solutions pretending to be saviors while they were the perpetrators in the first place.
When I see on the news that Haiti is always being labeled as the poorest nation I used to get upset but now when I see that label now it assures me that Haiti is still FREE.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 10:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I couldn´t have said it better myself, jabao. It astounds me everyday the lenghts that some people are willing to go to sustain their misguided prejudices. Granted, the dominican state can´t give itself the luxury of accepting every inmigrant that wishes to escape his/her country's poverty, but it's an act of outright injustice to bring them here, exploit them til' the last drop of sweat, then deny them the rights that they have won by their hard work.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 10:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Jabaohaitian Jean Pierre Boyer was a very dark mulatto and he did hate whites, you people are always in denial when you are corrected! and again he invaded the country he was not invited. When he arrived in Santo Domingo the people of the eastern side of the island were not able to do anything because the country was economically in bad shape. Due to the fact that Spain was also in shambles with the expulsion of the french from their territory, spain was also economically in bad shape and no supplies were being shipped to la espanola. Or any of its former colonies mainly because they had become independent themselves, so when Boyer entered Santo Domingo with his contingency Jose Nunez De Caceres handed the keys of the city himself to Jean Pierre Boyer as a gesture of peace. But the real reason was because the country was not prepared for warfare at that point because of what i wrote from the beginning of my post! But essentially we did not want to be part of Haiti.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 May 2008 10:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic
What´s the point to all of that, arcatype? reliving the past all over again will not help us adress today's issues. Instead of reminiscing why fulano did this and that, we should be focusing in the search for solutions to the dilemma at hand. Although I´m something of an historian myself, even I can´t fail to recognize that more often than not it´s a fool´s errand to be dwelling on the what-ifs of the past.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 10:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The past is important Lautaro it shows the type of people that you are dealing with, and i dont want by any means to become alike or close to anything like Haiti. So if you can't accept that reality then your stuck on stupid! because in Haiti these people are encouraged to enter our country because they lack the drive to do anything positive for the betterment of their society. How long can we wait until the goverment of Haiti get it's act straight, i tell you we can't wait we got to take care of our own and we got to forget about Haiti. A goverment that dont serve the interest of its people dont deserve handouts unless they prove you wrong.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
If you dont have proof to back up your claim that Boyer was a racist or whatever you said he was I think you should let his name rest in peace. Or mr. Arcatype, I can say what I feel about your heroes. As a matter of fact I think the only racist here is you with your constant bashing of Haiti. Maybe you need to go sit on ruby lap...You two would make a good couple.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 11:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Mr. 1804 Again youre wrong, apparently your suffering from denial! it's a disease prevalent in Haiti.
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 May 2008 11:57 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Who supressed the use of the spanish language?, who put into effect that whites (criollos-spaniards) could not own any land? Who encouraged the closing of all the institutions of the city of Santo Domingo including schools and the university? To whom he enforced a curfew upon? who expelled the land owners elites from the country most being from Spain?. Who encouraged but failed in his attempt the mass emigration of black american former slaves into the country, to repopulate the land and at the same time to discourage an uprising from the spanish and criollos. But also to use the former black american slaves as indentured servants to further enrich the haitian elites and himself and pay there debt to France. Who? but the despot and racist Jean Pierre Boyer o.k.!!!!!
Written by: arcatype 
, 9 May 2008 12:02 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., And why we became rightfully independent from the haitian yoke, because of what i posted.
Written by: rom1804 
, 9 May 2008 7:51 AM
From: Zimbabwe
when Boyer entered Santo Domingo with his contingency Jose Nunez De Caceres handed the keys of the city himself to Jean Pierre Boyer as a gesture of peace. But the real reason was because the country was not prepared for warfare at that point because of what i wrote from the beginning of my post! But essentially we did not want to be part of Haiti.
Don't want to be part of Haiti uh?
TOO LATE For that why don't you move to Mars then Space Boy. The Haitians are taking over and we don't even need an army to do so we are doing it with our poor. New 21st century strategy find out its working pretty well. and theres nothing you or Rubi can do about that. Like I said before Arcatype be careful of what you wish for you always claim you are not racist and that you want Haiti to start handling its own and I see a strong Haiti will only means the extinction of the Dominicans. If Haiti stays poor arcatype you will hold on to your sovereignty a little longer TRUST ME
Written by: MrDom, 9 May 2008 7:59 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
poor haitians....... poor haitians!!!! thats all I can say....... now you undestand cibaeño.... if not look at the comment above.....
From: United States
Haitians are always living in total denial and this is the main reason why They will never stop being "Mediocre"
From: Haiti
MrDom, have you read my comments. Please dont read the ones with content like mine as well b4 making assumptions. Again, I will reiterate that dominican republic has the right to deport undocumented haitians..but those that have been there over 2 decades that have babies on dominican soil are denied a birth certificate which is need for everything formally. I hope you guys re-consider because in a decade when shit hit the fan it ain't going to be nice. Alot angry dominicans will be even more disenfranchised and will cause a division in the country. I hope you guys understand the consequences..Hopefully but that time haiti will be in a position to help the chaos waiting to spill over. And you abroad domincans talking b.s. when usa gets economically hit hispanics are the first one and dominicans are not on the list as wanted immigrants. Hope you have a Plan B. Im out..i can't read more nonsense..and Rom1804 please stop writing. u sound like a fool and a nutcase.
From: United States
Rom1804 i do not agree with you 100%, i don't think you should characterize that haitians are taking over DR. This is what Dominicans don't want, and I personally don't think would be fair for haitians to be taking over a side that is not theirs. Knowing the history of the island, I am sure if the economies were switched haitians would deny the citizenships of dominicans after their numbers were too big for comfort. In terms of Haiti, I personally don't want it to be a dump for another 200 years just to oppose imperalist powers. I think if anything, haitians should get their behind and educate themselves, so they can use the imperalists to their advantage. IF being a dump was so beneficial, i don't think so many haitians would be crossing the border to be ridiculed and jeered at by confused "Colored" dominicans. I rather the world powers developing haiti and getting jobs there for the poor. I feel its good to take a step backward in order to take 10 steps forward.
From: Zimbabwe
"It was the cibaenos that always were the most numerous in all the wars against the haitians so take more pride on that!"
Arcatype,you're an idiot if you construed anything I wrote as displaying a lack of pride in being Dominican. On top of that your grasp on history is shaky at best, displayed by the fact that you called Boyer a dark mulatto, which he was not. Toma este link para que aprenda mi hijo, que usted aun vive en la oscuridad sobre lo que es la historia Dominicana y el papel de nuestro pueblo durante la ocupacion haitiana:
http://books.google.com/books?id=....t1B0XgC&pg=PA104&dq=haiti,+santo+domingo,+boyer&lr=&sig=bIxcYsB_z26dZ2jlngtzXpPWyvo#PPA94,M1
In the context of this thread, that Luperon was of haitian ancestry is a big deal. It demonstrates that a person is no less of a dominican because his parents were haitian. Hell, luperon was more of a Dominican then anyone posting on this page and few can argue with that.
From: United States
In this world there are always pros and cons. I am all about the haitian government achieving stability and ending some corruption, to create foreign investments. Development won't come to haiti overnight, but complete freedom sometimes come at a cost. Even in the US, people are not totally free. I think most poor haitians in DR wouldn't mind foreigners owning businesses in haiti. I think its better to be in your country owned by foreigners, than being in a country where you are second class citizens. FYI, to no extent i want haiti to be owned by mostly rich foreigners and haitians being poor. There should be a mix economy in haiti with both foreign and state buinesses. Foreign investors should pay low taxes, and told to develop schools and build roads for haitian communities. Similar to how digicel works in haiti.
From: Zimbabwe
"poor haitians....... poor haitians!!!! thats all I can say....... now you undestand cibaeño.... if not look at the comment above..... "
Mi socio aunque usted no esta de acuerdo con lo que varios comentaristas han dejado dicho aqui eso no significa que uno debe juzgar un pueblo entero. Those are the comments of individuals who have their own opinions, which is their right.
I'm not advocating for a wave of haitians to inundate DR. I wouldn't want that at all. But right is right. I've met Dominicans of Haitians parents who were being denied there rights. It's a horrible situation and frankly I'm ashamed that more of my countrymen don't sympathize with their fellow countrymen simply because the status of their parents when they were born in dr(they shouldn't be made to pay for their parents' actions. That's unjust),and where there parents came from(cubans in transit giving birth in DR would be given birth certificated if they asked. I know personally of a case such as this).
From: Zimbabwe
"Who supressed the use of the spanish language?, who put into effect that whites (criollos-spaniards) could not own any land?"
http://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/abril2008/abril200819.htmRead that link CAREFULLY arcatype. So much for the supposed suppression of the Spanish language. As for whites not being able to own land: Do you mean to tell me that the majority of the families of white origin in the cibao region with deep roots in said region acquired most of their land holdings AFTER the haitian occupation? Well it must be according to you, arcatype, becaue the haitians didn't allow whites to own land. Fact is certain families in the cibao have owned the same land since well before the haitians. All you're doing, arcatype, is repeating propaganda, not history. Like I said, arcatype, your grasp on history is very weak.
From: Zimbabwe
Jabao, the other day we were discussing something and you let me know that you didn't want to dwell to much in history, you felt that centomparary issues had to be addressed to bridge the gap between haitians and dominicans and I mentioned that history is vital to that process. This thread is a clear illustration of my point. Until the past remains obscured and mired in elitist revisionism it will be difficult to counter the mindframe that such a lackluster understanding of history creates.
From: Haiti
Cibeano, I commend you for your objective opinions regarding this delicate issue. It's ashame that you are called antipatriotic for justice for your countrymen. These posters sound like minutemen and radicals. I just hope they feel the same when their behinds are in the frying pan in the USA bunch of hypocrites. How does this conflict with being a proud dominican that you are is mind boggling? To my haitian nationals that are posting dumb garbage please stop throwing gas in the fire. Rom1804, you are a demented young man. Your pride is hot air sense you are comfortable in the USA now and have escaped poverty in Haiti. You are no better then these dominicans abroad talking sh%*. Cause neither of you are facing the everyday struggles on the island. I also think the haitian government should be held accountable too. What's fair is fair? Haiti is in need of foreign investment not some welfare package with strings attach which is a band aide on a soar.
From: Haiti
Cibaeno, you are absolutely correct but I was referring to people that know history and see the wrongs on both sides thus me initiating the commeroation of dominicans in Haiti for our wrong doings to our neighbour and vice versa. I wasn't talking about the half pea brains that transform history for their own stance on present day issues. The sad thing is arcatype is an immigrant or an american of dominican descent. Let the USA strip his blue passport I bet you he'll by screaming not to be sent to DR for Good not on vacation.jajajjaj..and the comment about his mother renouncing her dominican citizenship because of too many haitians. As I said La Doña probably can't speak a lick of english. I wonder how americans will view her. Life is a circle and it does come back to bite you in the arse. I guess people forget dominicans are in precarious status in alot of countries and these countries can use the discriminatory practice just on that premise. Becareful for what you wish for.
Written by: arcatype 
, 9 May 2008 11:58 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Cibaeno75 Your a damn fool straight up, if we lived so comftarbly with the haitians why did we become independent after 22 years of total oppression. Your first link is about a book based on allegories using the historical narrative but with changes implemented to fit a perspective, read the title again!!!!! and the other link about Rafael Leonidas Trujillo is fake, do you believe all these pro-haitian websites cibaeno75 you've been had.
Written by: arcatype 
, 9 May 2008 12:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., The title of the book in question Haitian-Dominican counterpoint: nation, state and race on Hispaniola. If you carefully read the center part it says - "What would the island of Hispaniola look like if viewed as a loosely connected system?" Again?????
Written by: arcatype 
, 9 May 2008 1:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic
And Jabaohaitian your probably a mulatto living in a nice suburb in Haiti on top of a hill, with a view to the city not caring for those poor black haitians if they had anything to eat. Jabaohaitian you dont know me stop the charade!
From: United States
Arcatype: good job debating so many non sense people, specially the ones that want to bury Dominican Republic growing and progress.
I admire Your courage and determination debating with so many enemies of our homeland, specially Cibaeno75 which is always debating ideas that are quite unique for the other side of the island benefit.
I never believe that Cibaeno75 is "Dominican" at all, is quite clear on his comments but I guess that He got his nickname to divert some attention from the general public.
Written by: arcatype 
, 9 May 2008 1:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic
JR RUBIROSA These are the type of Dominicans Juan Pablo Duarte warned us about, as he stated so wisely - Mientras no se escarmiente a los traidores como se debe, los buenos dominicanos seran siempre victima de sus maquinaciones.
Written by: arcatype 
, 9 May 2008 1:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic
From: United States
arcatype: thanks for the illustration and once again keep the good work on behalf of our nation and against people with fake identities (Cibaeno75)
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:44 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75,
El que nacio en el mismo suelo que me vio nacer tiene el mismo derecho que yo a llamarse "Dominicano", a mi no me importa que sea chino, rojo o prieto y a la tierra no le importa tampoco
Your words!
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:45 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno,
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that. I'm still waiting.
Dude, I am not online all the time I have a life.
Another thing, I AM A GIRL... YES A G-I-R-L!!!
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:50 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, I dont know what to say other than What does Luperon have to do with the lack of resources and the abuse of a neighboring country?
You want to connect the 2. Good for you! we live in the now. If you want to thank the past people for doing great things lets start with Benjamin Franklyn who did great things but believed that there should be one race! and that races should not mix!!
:) horayhh
Written by: NYCDR, 9 May 2008 1:58 PM
From: United States
Cibaeno 75, I understand your sentiment but the reality is that we are a poor country. Okay, the girls were not brought by themselves to the middle of the country, their parents brought them! whao. And even if was a market of human trafficking, it has to stop.
Dominican Republic is always being bullied to help a nation that needs to help itself. If the foreign governments are so pro-haitians then bring funding and innovation to the country. Why preach about your neighbor not helping. Teach them how to take care of themselves! there are many haitians living abroad why dont they start by coming back home and bringing their wealth and what they have learned outside of their country to make their country better!
WE do !!!! so can they!!!
Written by: MrDom, 9 May 2008 2:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
Wow I never thought you were a girl NYCDR... you really are a especial one... I feel glad to see the opinion of a woman in this site.... and about cibaeño there is nothing "wrong" about what he wants... if Dominican Republic could have the resources to give to everyone (health, education etc), but sadly we cannot......................
From: United States
NYCDR: Very good points about your comments, to my opinion Cibaeno75 is not "Dominican"
and the funny part about it I don't get the point why He is not honest saying that He is actually a Haitian with a personal agenda like Mr. "Josean" and so many frustrated people.
They must get their act together and move on, the real racist people are haitians that are always complaining about colors like black, white, purple, medium light skin, mulato, mestizo, medium rare black, 100% black, half white-half black, etc.
From: Haiti
NYCDR, Sweety I understand that DR doesn't have the resources to take every single haitian that is in need. That shouldn't be debated, we are talking about dominicans of haitian descent that have never set foot in haiti and many can't speak creole to save their lives. So you are saying that all these kids having babies in the DR are haitian. C'mon. Let's not talk about NYC where dominicans are having babies at a young age and dropping out of school like it was out of fashion. DR is a sovereign country and one has to respect the laws but it is quite obvious there is some injustice. I hope that many of you support the minutemen to get hispanics that are illegal with kids born in the usa back to wherever they came from. And the bashing of Cibaeno is ridiculous and calling him haitian is weak. Like I said when the republicans get in office and the dollar weakens further I hope you guys have a plan B. Maybe we could get them to finish the construction.
Why doesn't he give details of these supposed plans instead of just making allegations and practicing plain old fear-mongering?
Cibaeno, the reason behind this is not because of prejudice but because of depletion of resources. Check back not long ago when the statistics showed that in Santiago there were a huge number of young girls giving birth (average age 12). The report specified the fact that children having children give birth to sick babies because their bodies were not fully developed.
Now, please check to see how many of these girls were actually dominican and of dominican descent and how many were haitian!!!
Its alarming and I understand that Haiti is no nirvana, but DR has its own problems and lacks to also carry the burden of our neighbor too!!!!
Pelegrin Castillo is the son of Vincho Castillo a neo fascist , neo Trujillista (now that might be redundant) who is on of "Lie-onel's" idols.
Not to long ago "Lie" declared himself a "Vinchista" and "Bochista" which is like being a worshiper of Satan and God at the same time.
But to paraphrase old Winston Churchill "Lie-onel" is an "Enigma wrapped in a Contradiction" or as an untutored peasant like me would say a blatant political opportunist!
It does not make you racist to protect your sovereignty. The U.S. is very anti Haitian, and if the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France are so pro Haitian maybe they should open there borders to them.
Let us not forget who over through Haiti’s last president THE U.S.
WHO DID HAITI FIGHT FOR FREEDOM? THE FRENCE
Why should we open our borders to anyone? Why can't Haitians make their own country work? Why would we want to open the gates , Haiti made it's bed now it has to lay in it.
The US is anti Haitian ?, I know a lot of Haitian-Americans who love the US and support and respect it's laws. I don't think the US as a whole is Anti anything except terrorism!
We have woman and a black man running for president.
And there is a very good chance that one or the other will win.
There is also a chance they both will be in the whitehouse.
The US should not be blamed for any of the problems either of these countries have.
The US does what it can and in most case more then it should and we the taxpayers foot the bill.
You throw out all the Haitians and the DR will go backwards since you cant find a Dominican to work worth a dime.
Indeed that is the law but if you apply that criterion to some of the great historical figures produced by the Dominican Republic you would exclude them from being Dominican. Does anyone posting on here have the nerve to say that they're more of a patriot than Luperon was? Or even Hereaux for that matter (though he proved to be a despotic dictator no one can erase the fact that he was valiant in war and put his life on the line for the Dominican nation on several occasions. No one on here can say that), Both these men are the sons of haitians. As for Castillo, he's a coward. He knows who are the individuals in Dominican society who are perpetuating illegal haitian immigration. He's not going to call them out. Instead he makes a blanket accusation with no merit whatsoever.
Every election in the DR, there is a glut of Haitian bashing and scapegoating, nothing new there. As far as those who are demonizing Dessalines, it is easy in the 21st century to bash him, when it was his enemies in 1803 who started the campaign, with a plan to kill all black & mulatto Haitians aged 13 and older and re-import new Africans for the slavery business, because those older than aged 13 began to revolt. At least he was fighting to take us out of slavery and human bondage, but in 1937 more than a 100 years later your beloved Trujillo did him 100X better by ordering the DR army to butcher 50K Haitians and Black Dominicans - unarmed men, women, and children, mostly in border areas, but also in the western Cibao for no reason, like Hitler, Trujillo was trying to purify the DR.
And you're regurgitating this information to me because..?
What does Haiti putting its finances in order have to do with Dominicans of haitian ancestry or their status in DR? Of course haiti needs to get her affairs in order. No brainer there. As for the deportation of illegals, I'm all for that. No arguments from me there.
I agree with you 100%. That's going to come to bite the Dominican state on the ass if it isn't addressed soon.
I can think of no personal heroes of mine that are perfect, either. Fact is that these are MEN we are discussing, with all that it implies. That's one of the biggest mistakes that I feel many historians make, they present to us these historical figures as if they were semi-divine.
To those of Haitian descent, your mother country has been in the throws of revolution since it's inception. It has been governed by despots and greedy politicos from the very begining. The same definition applies aslo to the DR.
Both nations share a single island which has been isolated from the mainstream of civilization from the very begining. Thus, instead of focusing outward, both countries have focused inwardly and created an atmosphere of intolerance for each other due to their own interaction.
That being said, I will go even further and state that NO INTERNATIONAL ENTITY has either the authority nor the right to dictate any course of action against a sovern nation whose laws may, or may not, be contrary to that entity's philosophy.
If the DR government elects to expel the Haitian population from within it's borders, it has EVERY RIGHT to do so. It matters not, in this discussion, who, what, nor how, all these people arrived in the DR. It is the sole prerogative of the DR government to deport them and/or to allow them a continued residency.
The World Court totally ignored the provisions of the Haitian Constitution which states that any child born of Haitian parents is automatically a Haitian Citizen andwhose birth should be registered in Haiti, not necessarily the country born in.
TB
It's the sole perrogative of DR's sons and daughters to change, or at least attempt to change, whatever they do not like or care for in said country's government and part of initiating change includes having dialogue.
I agree with you partially, old son, but there are plenty of reasons beyound what you alledge that come into play over this ongoing exchange of slavering rhetoric.
Bigotry and predjudice isat work on both sides with the goal of laying the blame at the doorsteps of the opposition.
The fact remains is that Dominicans, as a people, don't want Haitians within their borders, regardless of the desires of the Haitians themselves nor of thedesires of those who would open the borders for free and easy access.
It just ain't never going to happen, so accept it andquit bitching about something you can do nothing about since it has been going on for centuries by people of the same mindset on both sides of the border.
Then there is thedeep-rooted animosity created by the Haitian occupation way back when, when there were many atrocities committed by the soldiers and govrnment officials of the time.
You do read history, don't you? Do so with a clear mind.
TB
Who are these individuals that desire free and easy access across the border? I'm curious.
TexasBill: I agree with you 100% "dominican gov. has the right to expell the hatians if it so wished it.
Haiti is it's own nation and the West should not expect a poor country to look out for people when their own people are poor and suffer daily.
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, DN
You are right about the law NYCDR... and you are right about everthing you said... I could not say it better
MUCHAS GRACIAS........ :)
You mean the problem it has created already.Do you honestly think that there would be any illegal haitians in DR if the powers that be didn't want them there?The border's not the big and the Dominican military is excessively large for a country the size of DR.It doesn't take a master strategist to realize that the Dominican military could've sealed the border long ago.Hell,they did it during the disturbances in Haiti in the mid nineties!It's a known fact that among the biggest tranporters of illegal haitians are Dominican military personnel.No mire hacia los haitianos. Mejor mire bien a los dominicanos que estan involucrado en este lio.The poor haitian,like poor people everywhere,will go wherever there's work for him and I'm not one to blame him or her for doing so.Blame the individuals who's duty it is to maintain the border and the national integrity of the Dominican state but do not.
My question: if they are hungry and you only have 1 piece of bread for you and your family would you stop from feeding your family and provide to any of these individuals?
Please answer honestly. Yes you would give it to them or no you feed your family.
dont give me long answers please.
"Dont try to turn the subject into a racist issue when it is all a matter of illegal immigration."
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that.
??? Dude, that is anyone and anywhere. The laws are there to be held. According to what you are saying the military is to blame for 12 year old haitian girls giving birth at astronomical numbers to gain citizenship? Whao!!!
I dont know how hard you think these people work. I am not alone when I say that lots of people complain of haitians mediocre workstyle.
Finally, if the shoe was in the other foot, how sensible and willing to help and to accept would the haitians be on these same issues. Do you think they would be better or worse than us?
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that. I'm still waiting.
So as a DOMINICANO tha really care for my country and its future, the law should continue being the same "birth certificates for legal immigrants" just for them......
Entonces sacamos los huesos de Luperon del Panteon nacional. Now wouldn't that be absurd?
He was a great man in our history but not because we had great Dominicans having Haitian roots we will change our law.
you're just repeating soundbites. I heard the same arguments here when someone proposed not granting citizenship to the children of illegals here in the states. I though that such a policy was wrong for this country then and I think that the same policy is wrong for dr now. Everything in this life is reciprocal. Every action has a reaction. All Dominicans should bear that in mind when they consider the fact that DR has millions of sons and daughters who are living in other countries. And to address something esle you were alluding to: The dominican diaspora has a voice, though it may not be organized the way it should be just yet, abd it's the right of all Dominicans ANYWHERE on the planet to have an opinion on the going ons of their home country. Without our remittances alone the dominican economy would find itself in serious trouble. No one should ever forget that.
You sound like a child without personality......................
Here is my philosophies on all of this.
Step.
1) We conquered them ( Didn't work for too long they gained their independence)
2) We try to buy them out ( That didn't work out neither we were bankrupt in the process)
3) Now we are trying to breed them out ( So far so good) Even the international community is on board with that idea. Thanks for the support France , USA, Canada. You see as long as we have 2 different race on a small island like Hispaniola there will always be those type of issues since now we realize its easier and speedier to darkened the whole island instead of going the Trujillo way. It will take about a good 70 years of hard breeding to get the whole island looking like Sri Lankans while a good 200+ years is need to even get close to Argentinian skin tone. Now Haiti will always be the dominant nation because Dr doesn't have any History.
DR history doesn't even make a 8.5 X 11 page.
Vive A
And you proudly call yourselves LATINOS and your people didnt make any contributions to anything. None- Zero.The Haitians fought and gave you your freedom. Then we the Haitians fought and gave supplies to Simon Bolivar to give Latin America Freedom. We the Haitians fought and help the Americans during the American revolution. What have you done Mr. Dominicans beside stabbing Haiti in the back every time you get a chance. You see you have no history and you know what they say about people with no History.
First they make it bad, then they come with solutions pretending to be saviors while they were the perpetrators in the first place.
When I see on the news that Haiti is always being labeled as the poorest nation I used to get upset but now when I see that label now it assures me that Haiti is still FREE.
Don't want to be part of Haiti uh?
TOO LATE For that why don't you move to Mars then Space Boy. The Haitians are taking over and we don't even need an army to do so we are doing it with our poor. New 21st century strategy find out its working pretty well. and theres nothing you or Rubi can do about that. Like I said before Arcatype be careful of what you wish for you always claim you are not racist and that you want Haiti to start handling its own and I see a strong Haiti will only means the extinction of the Dominicans. If Haiti stays poor arcatype you will hold on to your sovereignty a little longer TRUST ME
Arcatype,you're an idiot if you construed anything I wrote as displaying a lack of pride in being Dominican. On top of that your grasp on history is shaky at best, displayed by the fact that you called Boyer a dark mulatto, which he was not. Toma este link para que aprenda mi hijo, que usted aun vive en la oscuridad sobre lo que es la historia Dominicana y el papel de nuestro pueblo durante la ocupacion haitiana:
http://books.google.com/books?id=....t1B0XgC&pg=PA104&dq=haiti,+santo+domingo,+boyer&lr=&sig=bIxcYsB_z26dZ2jlngtzXpPWyvo#PPA94,M1
In the context of this thread, that Luperon was of haitian ancestry is a big deal. It demonstrates that a person is no less of a dominican because his parents were haitian. Hell, luperon was more of a Dominican then anyone posting on this page and few can argue with that.
Mi socio aunque usted no esta de acuerdo con lo que varios comentaristas han dejado dicho aqui eso no significa que uno debe juzgar un pueblo entero. Those are the comments of individuals who have their own opinions, which is their right.
I'm not advocating for a wave of haitians to inundate DR. I wouldn't want that at all. But right is right. I've met Dominicans of Haitians parents who were being denied there rights. It's a horrible situation and frankly I'm ashamed that more of my countrymen don't sympathize with their fellow countrymen simply because the status of their parents when they were born in dr(they shouldn't be made to pay for their parents' actions. That's unjust),and where there parents came from(cubans in transit giving birth in DR would be given birth certificated if they asked. I know personally of a case such as this).
http://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/abril2008/abril200819.htm
Read that link CAREFULLY arcatype. So much for the supposed suppression of the Spanish language. As for whites not being able to own land: Do you mean to tell me that the majority of the families of white origin in the cibao region with deep roots in said region acquired most of their land holdings AFTER the haitian occupation? Well it must be according to you, arcatype, becaue the haitians didn't allow whites to own land. Fact is certain families in the cibao have owned the same land since well before the haitians. All you're doing, arcatype, is repeating propaganda, not history. Like I said, arcatype, your grasp on history is very weak.
I admire Your courage and determination debating with so many enemies of our homeland, specially Cibaeno75 which is always debating ideas that are quite unique for the other side of the island benefit.
I never believe that Cibaeno75 is "Dominican" at all, is quite clear on his comments but I guess that He got his nickname to divert some attention from the general public.
El que nacio en el mismo suelo que me vio nacer tiene el mismo derecho que yo a llamarse "Dominicano", a mi no me importa que sea chino, rojo o prieto y a la tierra no le importa tampoco
Your words!
If you're reffering to me show me where i did that. I'm still waiting.
Dude, I am not online all the time I have a life.
Another thing, I AM A GIRL... YES A G-I-R-L!!!
You want to connect the 2. Good for you! we live in the now. If you want to thank the past people for doing great things lets start with Benjamin Franklyn who did great things but believed that there should be one race! and that races should not mix!!
:) horayhh
Dominican Republic is always being bullied to help a nation that needs to help itself. If the foreign governments are so pro-haitians then bring funding and innovation to the country. Why preach about your neighbor not helping. Teach them how to take care of themselves! there are many haitians living abroad why dont they start by coming back home and bringing their wealth and what they have learned outside of their country to make their country better!
WE do !!!! so can they!!!
and the funny part about it I don't get the point why He is not honest saying that He is actually a Haitian with a personal agenda like Mr. "Josean" and so many frustrated people.
They must get their act together and move on, the real racist people are haitians that are always complaining about colors like black, white, purple, medium light skin, mulato, mestizo, medium rare black, 100% black, half white-half black, etc.