Written by: josean, 21 Jan 2009 8:59 AM
From: United States
Chauncey,
You should at least provide them with a compass!
Written by: Carmen, 21 Jan 2009 9:16 AM
From: United States, New York City
It's really sad how these people risk their lives to get out. My heart goes out to their loved ones to not know anything about your mother, father, sister, brother must be a horrible thing regardless of where they might be let's just pray they are okay!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
at least they are alive in Cuba ...if you call that living
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
the Jokes on them Castro can give them rice cookers and ration cards
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Josean they have fulfilled your dream when are you and the wanker and your boss leaving for the workers paradise....you will need re education and that better than no education
From: United States
My heart goes out to them... Now with that out of the way!
From Guata-Mala To Guata-Peor! I know when they arrived, and found out they were in Cuba, they must to been some pissed off people..... God Help them!
Written by: josean, 21 Jan 2009 9:27 AM
From: United States
These are smart entrepreneurial Dominicans you are getting a heads up to be in Cuba for when the EMBARGO is lifted!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
josean what a dreamer ...you will not see this dramatic story in joseans favorite newspaper Granma ...unless it is reworked " Dominican freedom fighters escape Tyranny of Capitalist system " Parade planned in Plaza de la Revolucion and Elian Gonzalez will be Grand Marshall ] says Granma
Written by: bernies, 21 Jan 2009 10:52 AM
From: United States, key west fl
carmen your heart goes out for the loved ones.
well let me tell you who these people are. they are the unwilling to do hard labor such as constructions. if you look dr on the list of poor countries you will find out that the dr does not qualify for a lot benefits that other poor countrie are allow to get. let say lottery visa to get work permit residency that would allow them to work and live in the usa like most poor countries get. these are the kind of pleople that get out of this island to put the name on list of persona nograta. because of the type work that they do once they are out of the island which almost everyone knows. or should i say it, no i will let you do the home work.
Written by: Gringo_1, 21 Jan 2009 11:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Maimon (Bonao)
Bernies plz be careful what you say. Alot of the posters on this board know that my wife's brother was on the yola. I have spent many weekends in Villa Rivas with this family and they are not what you are speaking of. The missing cunado is salt of the earth. If you ever lived in Villa Rivas, you would know what is happening. They all work sunrise to sunset, herding cows, picking rice, catching haiva, etc. when there is work. And they are always hungry. Come on dude, be sensitive here. This has been tough and we don't need any stupid remarks.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
say you are sorry bernie ....chop chop
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Gringo 1 please keep us posted as to what you know this is a fascinating and happy story if they are all alive .....then shoot the navigator
Written by: Gringo_1, 21 Jan 2009 11:25 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Maimon (Bonao)
Thanks I well. We knew of this is early December. I cant speak of everyone, but this is a close family and they are always looking for hope. But, as you know, in this culture there are always rumors. This has been a real roller coaster. I believe the family wants to believe they are safe and living in Cuba because it is better than the alternative. However, I dont think it is likely for two reasons: (a) why would cuba not return them; and (b) remember they found two survivors on the beach and these two "survivors" were later charged with human smuggling. I will look for the article about these two coyotes. Thanks for your kind words.
Written by: Gringo_1, 21 Jan 2009 11:26 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Maimon (Bonao)
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
sorry I jumped to a happy ending ....I still hope it is true...God Bless your family
Written by: Duane, 21 Jan 2009 11:39 AM
From: United Kingdom
"the Jokes on them Castro can give them rice cookers and ration cards"
The real joke is, its still more than they would get from the own country or fellow countrymen.
From: United States
Gringo, I'm sorry if my comment was offensive in anyway. I wish the best and only the best for you and your loved ones as well as the other people affected by this tragedy. Some of us make jokes about tragic events, because we don't know how to handle the situation, or perhaps it's just out of sadness and outrage. But then again, some of us are just right ignorant and mean. Please accept my apologies if indeed I offended you.
~Dominicanlady
Written by: Carmen, 21 Jan 2009 12:18 PM
From: United States, New York City
bernies, yes my heart still goes out to thier family regarless for what they are leaving the country for, which of course your sterotyping everyone on that yola (shame for you) I still feel for their family. How do you know if a father in that yola didn't leave so he can find a better life for his children? How do you know if a mother in that yola didn't leave so she can find a better life for her children because thier dad left and couldn't give two ****. Or right your sterotyping eveyone on that yola.
Written by: zak325, 21 Jan 2009 12:40 PM
From: United States
I'm guessing Cuba doesn't want to foot the bill for their return, and why should they? and i'm willing to bet some of those Dominicans might not be so anxious to return to R.D.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
As a Dominican I am embarrassed by this situation. As a human being, I am appalled at the depth of destitution compelling these individuals to risk it all for the opportunity to earn poverty-level wages in a foreign land, where they might be neither wanted or needed. This makes it especially disgusting to realize the exhorbitant wages legislators, high-ranking state employees, advisers and other cronies usurp in DR, salaries that could be considered excessive even in a first world country such as the US. How sad!
Written by: , 21 Jan 2009 5:42 PM
From:
Glomarexplorer,
As a Dominican, you should not feel any embarrassment at all over this situation. Illegal immigration is not a Dominican issue, it is a global issue that is neither your fault nor the fault of these missing boat people. What embarrasses me, are those who would label these people as "lazy" or "ignorant" for comitting these desperate acts in order to escape the economic destitution that is their reality. If this story is valid, which I highly doubt, lets hope that the Dominican government can take 5 minutes off from pillaging and colluding to insure the safe and speedy return of their people.
Gringo_1
I hope and pray for the safe return of your brother in law, I cannot even begin to understand the emotional tumult that your family is going through, in this most difficult time. May our prayers be answered.
Written by: devin11, 21 Jan 2009 5:44 PM
From: United States, The Greatest City
Glomarexplorer,
As a Dominican, you should not feel any embarrassment at all over this situation. Illegal immigration is not a Dominican issue, it is a global issue that is neither your fault nor the fault of these missing boat people. What embarrasses me, are those who would label these people as "lazy" or "ignorant" for comitting these desperate acts in order to escape the economic destitution that is their reality. If this story is valid, which I highly doubt, lets hope that the Dominican government can take 5 minutes off from pillaging and colluding to insure the safe and speedy return of their people.
Gringo_1
I hope and pray for the safe return of your brother in law, I cannot even begin to understand the emotional tumult that your family is going through, in this most difficult time. May our prayers be answered.
Written by: Gringo_1, 21 Jan 2009 5:57 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Maimon (Bonao)
Thanks
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Devin,
No issues with your comments; in fact, it is pretty much what tried to say. We should all remain embarrassed, however, at the collective inability to preclude some lives from being lost in this awful manner.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Gringo,
I also pray that your brother-in-law and all others will be found alive and safe, and returned to their loved ones. May God almighty watch over them.
From: Dominican Republic, Bonao
omg.. don't take this personally, but in the photo they look Haitian not Dominican :bbbbb
Written by: devin11, 21 Jan 2009 8:19 PM
From: United States, The Greatest City
Does that make you feel better?
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
I don't think the Cubans would keep the Dominicans prisoners, it would make it a bad political move.
Written by: antonio1, 21 Jan 2009 9:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Av Santa Rosa, La Romana
Great news, hope the come back safe.
From: United States
i see that the unrelenting cretin neon genesis refuses to try to make an intelligent comment, even in the face of such abject misery. neon, do you realise that people the world over read your inane remarks, and might be inclined to stereotype the DR as a land of incoherent morons?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
chill maybe they want to stay and not tell anybody ....after all it is so nice over there,,,,rice cookers and all ...no rice but they got the cookers.....chill are you and neon related.?...he wants to know how they got a photo of the missing boat if its missing
From: Dominican Republic, Bonao
i didn't say it in a bad way, i just tell the statement, that picture is an old picture of poor Haitian "balseros" simple... coño
by the way the D.R coastguard should let fee all that amount of money that we had kept silent and spend it too boost the ability of the coast guard to rescue those kind of people
From: United States
and your point was?
Written by: devin11, 21 Jan 2009 10:46 PM
From: United States, The Greatest City
Dread,
Keep waiting for a point to be made and I hope that you make yourself very comfortable, while waiting. I think this young man is an Honors Graduate from Ambioriv University.
Written by: antonioj, 21 Jan 2009 10:46 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Good news, I hope they all get back safe, the government should provide some assistance to these folks to re-settle.
neon_genesis how can you be so cruel little ni...r self hatred twit,. They are Dominicans first idiot. Seek help, you need to learn about, HATRED, IGNORANCE, INTOLERANCE and SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Written by: devin11, 21 Jan 2009 10:48 PM
From: United States, The Greatest City
Antonioj,
I hope you make yourself comfortable also, while waiting for him to honor your request.
From: United States
devin, it is pathetic when a grown man cannot distinguish between when to be serious, and when to attempt humor. a well trained seven year old has already acquired those social skills, in most cases.
Written by: antonioj, 21 Jan 2009 10:57 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: devin11, 21 Jan 2009 10:48 PM
From: United States
Antonioj,
I hope you make yourself comfortable also, while waiting for him to honor your request.
"
Yeah right, Dev I do not believe in santa claus.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Tonyj what the weather like up on the glaciers up there ?...got your ice scraper with you ?
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
This is clearly a human tragedy, and it is disappointing that anybody would make light of it.
Written by: antonioj, 21 Jan 2009 11:24 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: gouletcolonial, 21 Jan 2009 11:01 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands, St Thomas Mahogany Run
Tonyj what the weather like up on the glaciers up there ?...got your ice scraper with you ?
"
Actually a little news for you GC, the niagara fall was partiallly frozen, today was -20 with the wind factor -25, my ice scrapper is safely stored in my car.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
the Falls does not freeze often anymore ...must be that global warming ....they should make Ozone Al go over the falls in a barrel
From: United States
LOL, How come this people left DR "East Coast" and ended a few hundred miles in the "North West".
I think this was done in purpose,
LOL
From: Dominican Republic
How much longer will it take to leave the country empty?
From: United States
Written by: rockbottom, 22 Jan 2009 3:34 AM
From: Dominican Republic
How much longer will it take to leave the country empty?
Not too much longer if they keep up with the Quirino "Protected Witness List"
From: United States
Regarding: Carmen, 21 Jan 2009 9:16 AM
It's really sad how these people risk their lives to get out. My heart goes out to their loved ones to not know anything about your mother, father, sister, brother must be a horrible thing regardless of where they might be let's just pray they are okay!
=====================================
BS they deserve what they get. Cowards. What these people dont have is courage. Which is typical.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Written by: dreadlocks, 21 Jan 2009 10:51 PM
From: United States
devin, it is pathetic when a grown man cannot distinguish between when to be serious, and when to attempt humor. a well trained seven year old has already acquired those social skills, in most cases........Ladrone says "BS they deserve what they get. Cowards. What these people dont have is courage. Which is typical.".....what a class act...eh dread
From: United States
As an individual Which is more of a struggle, and which will provide a greater return?
A: Organizing opposition and long term resistance to the current regime.
or
B: illegally traveling or entering the U.S.
answer is B
But if you think for the collective whole and the future or what would be best in the long term and not the immediate or yourself, the answer could be "A"
Written by: Carmen, 22 Jan 2009 2:23 PM
From: United States, New York City
BS. They prove the courage they have by getting on that boat knowing full well there was a chance of death. What more courage do you need. Let's just go back to Alice in Wonderland here guys Ladronaso do we need a heart here?
From: United States
Wow, I've missed a lively discussion. I hope they are ok. Even if they are "cowards" as Ladronaso puts it, their family and kids may be suffering.
I can agree with Ladronaso's point about collective resistance to the current regime. The problem is that an actual change is very tough to accomplish. Many Dominicans allow themselves to be herded like cattle and do not realize what is going on around them. I was very happy to see that people are beginning to stand up and protest as was shown by the response to Leonel's corruptive pardons.
Written by: Carmen, 22 Jan 2009 5:02 PM
From: United States, New York City
Let's got back to the books here guys COW.ARD (Noun) somebody regarded as fearful and uncourageous. Let's just analyze here a moment. Where do we see fear in these individuals? It takes alot of courage to get on a boat that may wind up taking your life, these are no COWARDS! May God bless them, and their families..............
Written by: Lautaro, 22 Jan 2009 5:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Sorry to disagree with you, Carmen, but for me it takes even more guts for a human being to fight for his/her rights on his/her own land. There's definitely no courage (or honor) in bowing down one's head and begging for crumbs on a foreign land. If something, that's the telltale sign of the vanquished and defeated.
From: United States
you beat me to the punch, Mr Lautaro. as my old buddy Bob Marley would say "GET UP, STAND UP, STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS. GET UP , STAND UP, DON'T GIVE UP THE FIGHT".
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
so you agree with that ...they are cowards ...dready what a phony these are the same people you were trying to get some respect for ....now they are cowards ...you have the ethics of a limbo dancer
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
how low can you go
From: United States
Defeated. Thats what we are as a people, If we continue to run and succumb to the insidious practices and that are woven in the fabric of our culture i.e corruption, deceit, incompetence.
Carmen. I paint a scenario that may help define our point.
An infantry unit in its camp. In its perimeter lies the enemy, land mines and booby traps. The enemy out numbering the soldiers 10:1 is constantly harassing while increasingly crippling the units ability to make real sustainable strategic gains.
Someone's defeat is imminent.
From: United States
(cont)
The unit realizes that in-order to protect its right to exist and advance itself to a better place and a better position that will benefit everyone, it ponders the idea of a protracted attack. Defeat is imminent.
Attacking the enemy head on. In the midst of all this deliberation there are cowardly soldiers also pondering an idea. The idea of desertion. They deliberate the options; Stay, attack and suffer the consequences of failure, death, injury or triumph or in the darkness of night, try to run past the land-mines and booby traps and evade capture by the enemy. Lest not forget defeat is imminent.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
lets rig josean up as a suicide bomber
Written by: Carmen, 22 Jan 2009 8:30 PM
From: United States, New York City
Okay, I see I am outnumbered here, however I will always stand up for what I believe. Sometimes it becomes necessary to evaluate what is worth fighting for. COWARDS THEY ARE NOT! AND I STAND BY WHAT I BELIEVE!
Written by: josean, 22 Jan 2009 8:32 PM
From: United States
Grand Wizard,
Your the only person in the world that must have enemas via your mouth!
Written by: josean, 22 Jan 2009 8:33 PM
From: United States
I got your back Carmen!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Carmen pay no attention to the Fanatics...these poor peoples families I hope are not reading these posts
Written by: josean, 22 Jan 2009 9:03 PM
From: United States
The Grand Wizard wants to show sympathy for the inferior Latinos.
You are shameless Baron Münchhausen!
From: United States
Carmen, dont misinterpret my statements as callous or a disregard towards life. This is a contretemps notwithstanding, they are accounted for and alive.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Ladrone please tell us what your source is of these people being accounted for and alive ...Gringo! who is related to one of the people involved will be happy to hear of this
From: United States
Regarding the physicality and safety of these individuals, I am basing my statement on what was stated on the article. Read the last paragraph starting with:
"According to the spokesman,..........."
Concerned parties or individuals should direct their questions about the safety or status to DT, the Cuban Embassy/or Cuban Interest Office in DR, International Humanitarian/refugee organizations and so forth. If you seek you shall find. Perhaps he should ask DT to qualify their statements and sources.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
you are using an unreliable source.....there has been no confirmation of this other than rumour ...like the POWs still being held in Viet Nam ....if they were safe and sound ...I would be having a field day with Cuban jokes....Cowards is a little heavy handed at this point
Written by: Carmen, 22 Jan 2009 9:55 PM
From: United States, New York City
josean, gouletcolonial thank you guys I knew your were somewhere out there. ladronaso don't worry I understand. I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't analyze and understand other people views. I'm here to learn as well as educate take care.....
From: United States
gouletcolonial, you are so silly, and incapable of making sensible comments, that i am now beginning to have grave doubts about josean's assessment of you. he perceives you to be a doddering old fool, who has lost his faculties. i now begin to believe you are a 10 year old, one who is yet to acquire any sense of reason. i demand respect for dominicans, at all times. but running away does not get you respect. as Al Pacino said in the movie Scent of a Woman "When the going gets tough, some guys run, and some guys stay". you should know a lot about the running part, GC, as one who has run to and from just about every country on the planet, with the possible exception of antarctica. even with that, i am not sure. i am not going to involve myself in editorialising about the people who left on the yola. my point, and the only one i made, is that dominicans appear to be defeated. but it will be a cold day in hell when you do not misrepresent people; you just cannot be an honest person.
From: United States
then again, GC, maybe you do want all dominicans to run away from their country, so you and yours can take it over, this time without a struggle.
From: United States
It must feel so good when everyone from the politicians to the poor are in the wrong. The politicos are corrupt, the escaping poor are cowards. And that makes you guys what, principled crusaders? Your principles don't employ men, and your crusades against boogeymen oppressors feeds no one. I'll make a note to laugh when I see posts where you promote change ladronaso, because you are showing here the true contempt in which you hold the weakest.
What are you going to fight when you can hardly eat? When you are barely educated? It's braver to stay and suffer needlessly to what end? There is NO end in sight to their poverty, the votes of these people would do NIL to change situations that are the result of a century of history ...except perhaps in the fuzzy, addled visions of idealists. These people have plenty rights in DR, but rights aren't jobs.
Disagree with their choice sure, but call them cowards? Wow, another politico in the making.
From: United States
As for this business of 'begging for crumbs' on foreign land I never knew that is what the illegals who work eight-twelve hour shifts in twenty degree weather in NYC were doing. They should all go back to DR and follow men like you guys in another naive crusade against corruption, playing at politics instead of taking care of their economics.
From: Dominican Republic
To call these people cowards should be a crime. These poor people live in a country where their hard work and suffering will never be rewarded. People in my beloved country often go to college, with much sacrifice, and become "profesionals", to then see the few jobs that should be available to them be given to ilitarate, immoral, I could keep on with countless adjectives, people.
If God forbid they turn to crime to feed their children, they end up in jail, or worse excecuted by the police in some park. All this while watching the people that burry the country in debt, get presidential pardons for "humanitarian" reasons.
And some of us still have the nerve to defend one political party over another.
I think some of us should just thank God we were given a chance to leave legally. It must be hard watching ones son suffer disease and hunger and watch the people that are supposed to help, drive by in a luxury SUV. While asking a foreign country to help
LADRONES TODOS!!!
From: United States
Manhattanite, i am one guy on this forum who has the utmost respect for your intellect, but i beg to disagree with you, based largely on last Tuesday. 50 years ago, many people in the USA could have said that their struggles against inhumanity and injustice, and also inequality, would amount to nothing. but several people sacrificed , some their lives, so we could see what we just did. i agree with your negative assessment of the current state of affairs..are you telling me that you are resigned to the belief that all is lost? not all men are going to take a stand. i cannot expect that. but who should? only the guys who are well fed? they are the last to do so, since the status quo inures to their benefit. tell me, Manhattanite, have you conceded victory to the gangs that run the country? is the fight worth it? is it idealism to believe that some things are worth fighting for?
Written by: devin11, 23 Jan 2009 1:10 AM
From: United States, The Greatest City
So Dominicans that leave instead of staying through the status quo are deserters and sell-outs?Please, one of the greatest sources of income to the DR is through the remittances of these so called "cowards" and "deserters." The sacrifices and efforts of the people that have left their homes in search of a better life should be valued for the courage of not conforming and relenting to their certain economic plight and destiny.
Written by: devin11, 23 Jan 2009 1:18 AM
From: United States, The Greatest City
Dread,
No one in this forum has more respect for your intellect as do I. I can't think of ever having disagreed with you in the past, save this issue. Some of the people that are leaving, 20% of which live on less than US$2 per day cannot be fed with the expectations of "gutting it out." What can these people and many others that live in destitute poverty do to enhance their quality of life when they are completely forgotten and powerless within the system? When the situation is desperate, people will opt for desperate measures, that's not a Dominican issue, that's a survival issue. Change can come and hopefully it will, althougn never fast enough but when you've got to eat now, you've got to eat now.
From: United States
dread none of these 97 men, women and children were the next Obama, MLK, Jr., or anything like that. They are people at the end of the proverbial rope. Politics do not offer them a way out of desperation. No party or movement in DR will do right by them anytime soon. Staying behind they at best can offer their nation what? A hungry mouth and one more vote for who? A politician who drives by and tosses some salchichon their way? Maybe they should be holding signs in front of a ministry demanding justice?
Whatever kind of stand you are talking about it is NOT on the shoulders of those in this powerless rung of society to organize or fight it. Unless by taking a stand we are talking about mass mob uprising and destruction? Is this what they offer, one more pitchfork in the riot? Their departure won't stop or slow any of the crusaders, not if they are serious men in serious movements. Getting on the raft they've shown real resolve to improve their lot. Staying they make no difference.
From: United States
dread the most well fed may not lead the fight, but the notion that the unwashed masses do is old marxist bunkum. Leadership in politics can come from students, teachers, doctors, unionists, lawyers etc...this is not a binary fat cats vs. peons situation. Progress and developments are built organically over time, by linkages between movements and institutions, by changes in culture, and yes the occasional visionary. Parties are at the tail-end of all that. Last Tuesday is one culmination of all these in US.
On the other hand ppl who immigrate in so desperate a manner clearly do not feel organically linked to any sort of movement...bcuz they aren't linked, they are simply suffering, disenfranchised, with NO way out. Moreover as devin said they do more material good for DR by their choice. By becoming immigrants they participate in an organic, culturally & institutionally embedded phenomenon that has been part of reality since DR's inception and def for the last 50 yrs.
From: United States
Let me correct you Manhattanite. I have no contempt for anyone who looks for a better life and does it honestly and with dignity. if anything that I have expressed is pity for those who are weak, unable to resolve their issues and find solutions to their problems. I have pity for those who prefer to run away and not return with the power knowledge and the will to CHANGE the country from which they ran.
When Dominicans leave DR in Yolas to the U.S., become educated and return to Dom Rep with the knowledge experience wisdom and WILL to change the conditions of the homeland, then everyone would have a right to scorn my statements and views. But au contraire Dominicans return to DR to flaunt their money jipettas and partake in the same behavior that keeps the country slaved to the status quo.
Why? Because now that you have some money why fight the system? Money changes ones perceptive. But it doesn't make you wiser.
From: United States
(cont)
I will correct you again, I am not nor do I wish to be a politician. To be a good politician you must learn the art of hypocrisy. A behavior that is difficult for me assimilate. Now I will not deny the fact that I will be willing to join or participate/contribute to a serious organization, or entity my time and money with intentions to further the prosperity of DR by eradication of the status quo. Yes I am willing to the extent that it does not compromise or jeopardize my moral compass. I am "willing".
My fellow compatriot I am a realist. not an idealist. i say the way i see it. Dominicans did not start migrating to the U.S. yesterday. Dominicans have been migrating to the U.S. since 40- 50.
From: United States
If and when Dominicans return to DR and re-invest in their communities in their environment in meaningful ways then i will have no standing argument. Having said, show me the contrary.
From: United States
Dominicans even after obtaining wealth are incapable of doing so.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
these people you call cowards are still unaccounted for...It has not been confirmed they are in Cuba...Let us pray they are and Gringo 1 we hope you see your cunado again ...Good luck
From: United States
devin, and Manhattanite, i welcome your insights, and i certainly see the points you are making. absolutely sensible, and i cannot disagree. the subject is a thorny one, especially in this country. but guess what, Manhattanite? even the traditional intelligentsia, who have been in the vanguard of change worldwide, live like the great masses of poor people; in fact, they are part of that mass. simple example....my friend, who is a university student, has not attended a single class this week .(understand that the semester began last week) monday there were no lights. tuesday, the lecturer did not turn up because he had a prior engagement. last evening, the "profesor" sent a message to say that he had to go take care of some business in Santiago. so, in one week, all three nights lost. and this is for courses already paid for. so, Manhattanite, in a culture so hopelessly irresponsible and aimless maybe flight does have its merits, at least in some minds.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
not enough to be said for freedom of choice....certainly does not make anyone a coward ....";Give Me your Tired Huddled Masses "
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2009 8:51 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The fault that I find in flight, dread, is like ladronaso had already put, namely, that the inmigrant don't become an agent of change by the process, instead, in what perhaps is the most paradoxical of instances, he/she becomes an agent of the status quo by their encouraging others to migrate with their flaunting of their material gains on foreign lands (be those well or ill-gotten) to the people that remained on the homeland, and this can only leads us to a vicious cycle in which the biggest loser is the nation as a whole, because this flight is draining it of the most important resource that any nation can have, that is, of its human resources.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
lautaro do you think the Italians and the Irish feel that way ....the Dominican culture can withstand this emigration and grow because of it ...just look how expats have enriched the Dominican experience
From: United States
i am looking; please show me how expats have "enriched" the dominican experience.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Oscar Wao has enriched the Dominican experience among others to numerous to mention you philistine
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2009 9:31 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'm curious as well, unless someone considers covering oneself in golden chains and other manifestations of US urban ghettoism as "enriching", that is. As for Oscar Wao, the only thing that book has done (at least IMHO) is to expose our miseries and general failings as a nation, so I don't see that as "enriching" specially when we're reminded of those miseries every day by the thievery of our politicos and the inadequacy of our public services in general.
Written by: josean, 23 Jan 2009 9:35 AM
From: United States
"among others to numerous to mention "
When pressed The Klansman cops out!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Julia Alvarez, Maria Montez Oscar de la Renta ...Felix Sanchez etc etc etc you moron I would have mentioned josean but he is a negative influence with all his whining and complaining ....He should go to El Alto he would get punched out for claiming those people contribute nothing....he would get punched out just for being himself
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
lautaro it is a cycle and you should be a little more positive ....knocking the literary accomplishments of Junot seams to be a fashion with people who live here they hated Naipul in Trinidad as well because he spoke the truth ....Cervantes was probably unpopular in his era
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2009 10:50 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I couldn't care any less, gringo. The only thing that I can care about is for my country to find a way to stop the drainage in human resources that these yola trips represent, a tragedy that can only serve to perpetuate a vicious cycle that is slowly but surely turning us into a situado society, that is, a society of beggars which can't seem for the life of it to survive without the alms from foreign lands.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
dont feel like the Lone Ranger ....what you describe is taking place throughout the world ... south to north mostly
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
the yolas are washing up on the shores of all of Europe or were you not aware of the parallel.....and probably Australia
From: United States
First of all thanks to all for the discourse! If I get too sharp with any comments it is only because this is obviously an issue close to my own experience. No yoleros in my family but the weak arguments you guys are presenting against the yoleros is only a few steps removed from weak critiques of legal immigration. Also I see I'm not alone in letting emotion power exaggeration, and you guys know me I will always harp on not letting ideals or abstract concepts cloud material economic & institutional realities. So in that spirit...
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
hear hear
From: United States
Enrichment exiles provide to DR can be literally measured in the nutritional calories their remittances fund. Just bcuz your eyes see flaunting idiots doesnt mean they are the sum of exile contribution. Wealth sent back pays for more than cars. Every time I return to the campo my fam comes from I see real, tangible development: improved nutrition and residential conditions, healthier population, roads, plumbing & infrastructure, etc. Much of this has been funded by exiles and locals will tell you so. In the case of my own family none of my dad's brothers (7!) were gold-chained idiots. They returned in the 90s to set up ranches and partake in what they understood to be Cibaeño. They did this successfully until the latest crises pushed them back into exile. My point? Waves HAVE returned and tried hard. Not all succeeded. In their wake they left much progreso, even if there is plenty to go. Pick up econ texts and learn measure if necessary.
From: United States
The logic on display here is that those who have returned and provided material advancement to their barrios should have stayed and whined even harder to the flavor-of-the-moment political movement.
From: United States
Materialism at large is NOT a direct result of the exiles...it is a result of urban MODERNITY. Take a look around the world guys; wherever rural nations have flocked en masse to cities you see the same ills, regardless of whether they have exile populations in the economic core. Urban ills and materialism in DR have their genesis in the modernizing agendas of Ciudad Trujillo, not Washington Heights. When my exile family tried to return why did their attempt at becoming agricultural entrepreneurs eventually fail? Because DR is bizarrely now set up to be an urban nation due to late Trujillo/Balaguer policies to introduce what they saw as progress and modernity: urbanity. This is the path we have chosen despite the fact that DR metropolises cannot support this. As a result we have yoleros and shantytowns. Without the material support of exiles overpopulated urban DR and the depopulating countryside would look even worse...maybe like our sad neighbors.
From: United States
dread I clearly don't share your pessimism. if Dominicans are hopelessly irresponsible as you claim then the Anglo ethic and entrepreneurial culture that exiles are exposed to may be the only antidote. Your anecdote about the university I assure you goes on in US universities as well: uni isn't about seeing a professor's ugly mug but about digesting the 30-40 scholarly books you are assigned so it hardly matters if you regularly sit in a lecture hall with 300+ ppl.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
A breath of fresh air ....as opposed to dreads hot air ....with his little whining and complaining assistant josean
Written by: josean, 23 Jan 2009 2:41 PM
From: United States
From: United States
We can postulate all day about the root of all the problems in DR but nothing is so clear as the lack of middle class etc, attributed to education. It doesn’t take a knoble laureate to begin to surmise the reason why we as a nation do not succeed. You can read all the econ books explaining how we arrived to our decrepit state. But we need to separate reality from texts. The reality is, what it is.
From: United States
(cont)
Granted, you may have witnessed some isolated progress attributed to the remittances but you fail to accept that Dominicans ultimately are responsible for their own actions thus destiny. So I ask where are the schools that could be built with remittance? Hell lets not go that far where are the schools supplies, the vehicles or buses to take kids to school so they don’t have to hitch hike for miles to school?. Remittances don’t go to where they are needed. They go to individuals so they can purchase bigger TVs make bigger houses in the campos isolating themselves from the rest of the misery buy children designer clothes so they can say “yo tengo”. Bottom line, Dominicans lack integrity valor, courage to change their current conditions even if by any means necessary.
From: United States
(cont)
Dominicans will forever live in the sidelines as feeble defeated people. Because it takes courage and will to fight the system even if you think you cant win. It takes courage to stand up for what is right. It takes courage to continue persevering against all the odds. It takes courage to come back and continue to fight even after you have been defeated.
But its much easier and comfortable to capitulate and make excuses, to blame it on past leaders and economic conditions, to blame it on the U.S., on missed opportunities on everyone else except the man in the mirror.
.
The bottom line is we are and will always be a defeated people. This is not contempt, this is reality and PITY.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Ladrone what about the fate of these people have you confirmed they are in Cuba .....I am sorry to say I think not
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You should at least provide them with a compass!
From Guata-Mala To Guata-Peor! I know when they arrived, and found out they were in Cuba, they must to been some pissed off people..... God Help them!
well let me tell you who these people are. they are the unwilling to do hard labor such as constructions. if you look dr on the list of poor countries you will find out that the dr does not qualify for a lot benefits that other poor countrie are allow to get. let say lottery visa to get work permit residency that would allow them to work and live in the usa like most poor countries get. these are the kind of pleople that get out of this island to put the name on list of persona nograta. because of the type work that they do once they are out of the island which almost everyone knows. or should i say it, no i will let you do the home work.
The real joke is, its still more than they would get from the own country or fellow countrymen.
~Dominicanlady
As a Dominican, you should not feel any embarrassment at all over this situation. Illegal immigration is not a Dominican issue, it is a global issue that is neither your fault nor the fault of these missing boat people. What embarrasses me, are those who would label these people as "lazy" or "ignorant" for comitting these desperate acts in order to escape the economic destitution that is their reality. If this story is valid, which I highly doubt, lets hope that the Dominican government can take 5 minutes off from pillaging and colluding to insure the safe and speedy return of their people.
Gringo_1
I hope and pray for the safe return of your brother in law, I cannot even begin to understand the emotional tumult that your family is going through, in this most difficult time. May our prayers be answered.
As a Dominican, you should not feel any embarrassment at all over this situation. Illegal immigration is not a Dominican issue, it is a global issue that is neither your fault nor the fault of these missing boat people. What embarrasses me, are those who would label these people as "lazy" or "ignorant" for comitting these desperate acts in order to escape the economic destitution that is their reality. If this story is valid, which I highly doubt, lets hope that the Dominican government can take 5 minutes off from pillaging and colluding to insure the safe and speedy return of their people.
Gringo_1
I hope and pray for the safe return of your brother in law, I cannot even begin to understand the emotional tumult that your family is going through, in this most difficult time. May our prayers be answered.
No issues with your comments; in fact, it is pretty much what tried to say. We should all remain embarrassed, however, at the collective inability to preclude some lives from being lost in this awful manner.
I also pray that your brother-in-law and all others will be found alive and safe, and returned to their loved ones. May God almighty watch over them.
by the way the D.R coastguard should let fee all that amount of money that we had kept silent and spend it too boost the ability of the coast guard to rescue those kind of people
Keep waiting for a point to be made and I hope that you make yourself very comfortable, while waiting. I think this young man is an Honors Graduate from Ambioriv University.
neon_genesis how can you be so cruel little ni...r self hatred twit,. They are Dominicans first idiot. Seek help, you need to learn about, HATRED, IGNORANCE, INTOLERANCE and SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
I hope you make yourself comfortable also, while waiting for him to honor your request.
From: United States
Antonioj,
I hope you make yourself comfortable also, while waiting for him to honor your request.
"
Yeah right, Dev I do not believe in santa claus.
From: United States Virgin Islands, St Thomas Mahogany Run
Tonyj what the weather like up on the glaciers up there ?...got your ice scraper with you ?
"
Actually a little news for you GC, the niagara fall was partiallly frozen, today was -20 with the wind factor -25, my ice scrapper is safely stored in my car.
I think this was done in purpose,
LOL
From: Dominican Republic
How much longer will it take to leave the country empty?
Not too much longer if they keep up with the Quirino "Protected Witness List"
It's really sad how these people risk their lives to get out. My heart goes out to their loved ones to not know anything about your mother, father, sister, brother must be a horrible thing regardless of where they might be let's just pray they are okay!
=====================================
BS they deserve what they get. Cowards. What these people dont have is courage. Which is typical.
From: United States
devin, it is pathetic when a grown man cannot distinguish between when to be serious, and when to attempt humor. a well trained seven year old has already acquired those social skills, in most cases........Ladrone says "BS they deserve what they get. Cowards. What these people dont have is courage. Which is typical.".....what a class act...eh dread
A: Organizing opposition and long term resistance to the current regime.
or
B: illegally traveling or entering the U.S.
answer is B
But if you think for the collective whole and the future or what would be best in the long term and not the immediate or yourself, the answer could be "A"
I can agree with Ladronaso's point about collective resistance to the current regime. The problem is that an actual change is very tough to accomplish. Many Dominicans allow themselves to be herded like cattle and do not realize what is going on around them. I was very happy to see that people are beginning to stand up and protest as was shown by the response to Leonel's corruptive pardons.
Carmen. I paint a scenario that may help define our point.
An infantry unit in its camp. In its perimeter lies the enemy, land mines and booby traps. The enemy out numbering the soldiers 10:1 is constantly harassing while increasingly crippling the units ability to make real sustainable strategic gains.
Someone's defeat is imminent.
The unit realizes that in-order to protect its right to exist and advance itself to a better place and a better position that will benefit everyone, it ponders the idea of a protracted attack. Defeat is imminent.
Attacking the enemy head on. In the midst of all this deliberation there are cowardly soldiers also pondering an idea. The idea of desertion. They deliberate the options; Stay, attack and suffer the consequences of failure, death, injury or triumph or in the darkness of night, try to run past the land-mines and booby traps and evade capture by the enemy. Lest not forget defeat is imminent.
Your the only person in the world that must have enemas via your mouth!
You are shameless Baron Münchhausen!
"According to the spokesman,..........."
Concerned parties or individuals should direct their questions about the safety or status to DT, the Cuban Embassy/or Cuban Interest Office in DR, International Humanitarian/refugee organizations and so forth. If you seek you shall find. Perhaps he should ask DT to qualify their statements and sources.
What are you going to fight when you can hardly eat? When you are barely educated? It's braver to stay and suffer needlessly to what end? There is NO end in sight to their poverty, the votes of these people would do NIL to change situations that are the result of a century of history ...except perhaps in the fuzzy, addled visions of idealists. These people have plenty rights in DR, but rights aren't jobs.
Disagree with their choice sure, but call them cowards? Wow, another politico in the making.
If God forbid they turn to crime to feed their children, they end up in jail, or worse excecuted by the police in some park. All this while watching the people that burry the country in debt, get presidential pardons for "humanitarian" reasons.
And some of us still have the nerve to defend one political party over another.
I think some of us should just thank God we were given a chance to leave legally. It must be hard watching ones son suffer disease and hunger and watch the people that are supposed to help, drive by in a luxury SUV. While asking a foreign country to help
LADRONES TODOS!!!
No one in this forum has more respect for your intellect as do I. I can't think of ever having disagreed with you in the past, save this issue. Some of the people that are leaving, 20% of which live on less than US$2 per day cannot be fed with the expectations of "gutting it out." What can these people and many others that live in destitute poverty do to enhance their quality of life when they are completely forgotten and powerless within the system? When the situation is desperate, people will opt for desperate measures, that's not a Dominican issue, that's a survival issue. Change can come and hopefully it will, althougn never fast enough but when you've got to eat now, you've got to eat now.
Whatever kind of stand you are talking about it is NOT on the shoulders of those in this powerless rung of society to organize or fight it. Unless by taking a stand we are talking about mass mob uprising and destruction? Is this what they offer, one more pitchfork in the riot? Their departure won't stop or slow any of the crusaders, not if they are serious men in serious movements. Getting on the raft they've shown real resolve to improve their lot. Staying they make no difference.
On the other hand ppl who immigrate in so desperate a manner clearly do not feel organically linked to any sort of movement...bcuz they aren't linked, they are simply suffering, disenfranchised, with NO way out. Moreover as devin said they do more material good for DR by their choice. By becoming immigrants they participate in an organic, culturally & institutionally embedded phenomenon that has been part of reality since DR's inception and def for the last 50 yrs.
When Dominicans leave DR in Yolas to the U.S., become educated and return to Dom Rep with the knowledge experience wisdom and WILL to change the conditions of the homeland, then everyone would have a right to scorn my statements and views. But au contraire Dominicans return to DR to flaunt their money jipettas and partake in the same behavior that keeps the country slaved to the status quo.
Why? Because now that you have some money why fight the system? Money changes ones perceptive. But it doesn't make you wiser.
I will correct you again, I am not nor do I wish to be a politician. To be a good politician you must learn the art of hypocrisy. A behavior that is difficult for me assimilate. Now I will not deny the fact that I will be willing to join or participate/contribute to a serious organization, or entity my time and money with intentions to further the prosperity of DR by eradication of the status quo. Yes I am willing to the extent that it does not compromise or jeopardize my moral compass. I am "willing".
My fellow compatriot I am a realist. not an idealist. i say the way i see it. Dominicans did not start migrating to the U.S. yesterday. Dominicans have been migrating to the U.S. since 40- 50.
When pressed The Klansman cops out!
http://www.diariolibre.com/noticias_det.php?id=186002
Granted, you may have witnessed some isolated progress attributed to the remittances but you fail to accept that Dominicans ultimately are responsible for their own actions thus destiny. So I ask where are the schools that could be built with remittance? Hell lets not go that far where are the schools supplies, the vehicles or buses to take kids to school so they don’t have to hitch hike for miles to school?. Remittances don’t go to where they are needed. They go to individuals so they can purchase bigger TVs make bigger houses in the campos isolating themselves from the rest of the misery buy children designer clothes so they can say “yo tengo”. Bottom line, Dominicans lack integrity valor, courage to change their current conditions even if by any means necessary.
Dominicans will forever live in the sidelines as feeble defeated people. Because it takes courage and will to fight the system even if you think you cant win. It takes courage to stand up for what is right. It takes courage to continue persevering against all the odds. It takes courage to come back and continue to fight even after you have been defeated.
But its much easier and comfortable to capitulate and make excuses, to blame it on past leaders and economic conditions, to blame it on the U.S., on missed opportunities on everyone else except the man in the mirror.
.
The bottom line is we are and will always be a defeated people. This is not contempt, this is reality and PITY.