From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
well these were atrocities but the words used in this article are ridiculous hyperbole ....Holocaust and Genocide this only devalues these words and lessons there impact when they are needed
From: United States, Washington
Goully, you're right on. Trujillo did commit ethnic-clensing and what can be called a holocaust, but it was committed against Haitians, Dominicans of Haitian decent, and Dark skinned Dominicans...
In all, the surviving trujillistas should be brought to justice for their atrocities against humanity. "I was fallowing orders" is not a legitimate defense!
cheers,
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
baldy the incidents perpetrated by the then Dominican government against Haitian nationals in 1937 era are well documented and cannot be swept under the rug in this case the words do apply
Written by: Gizmo 
, 10 Feb 2009 12:22 PM
From: United States
1937 was vengeance against the atrocities commmited by haitian invaders of the early 19th century.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
it is a vicious cycle the innocent of today always suffer for the injustices of yesterday ....it has to stop
From: United States, Brooklyn
isn't it a bit late for this ? ? ?
From: United States, Washington
Gizmo, the fact that your grandfather may have committed some crime, doesn't justify punishing you or your cousin, or your neighbor or someone not remotely connected to your grandfather's crime...
Hate is easy, and it's easy to point fingers. What is hard is standing up for human rights and justice. Vengeance is not justice, vengence is something we teach our kids is bad, so why not apply that to bigger things.
Gizmo, many people think like you, but just think if that rule that you just supported was what was generally practiced in the world. Where would it stop? This is Kant's ideal of the moral imperative...
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Feb 2009 12:57 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
That's right baldoria. Although, from my point of view, the philosophy of turning the other cheek for another outrage is an equally dangerous principle.
From: United States, Washington
No one's suggesting "turning the other cheek," just that the perpetrators of crimes and people who discriminate and oppressed should be brought to justice.
I've been reading Simone de Beauvior's "The Second Sex," and in the introduction she gives a great & concise account of the relationship btw the Self and the Other. The Self needs to create the Other in order to exist. But what's wrong is when the Self starts ascribing negative traits to the Other in order to elevate itself to an artificial privilege position. Then the Self, who sees itself as essential and objectifies the Other, creates all these MYTHS to justify it's privileged state. Moreover, it presents the status quo as NATURAL and UNQUESTIONABLE.
That's why we need to DOUBT history, b/c it was written by the victors, and guess what, don't be surprise if the exaggerate here and there to make the Self look noble and the Other ignoble.
Anyway, I digressed. But a theoretical discusison can help us understand our realit
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 1:47 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
"Let sleeping dog lay" Old Chinese proverb.
Let's move forward, things like this just inflame old wounds.
The Mirabal murderers were let loose during the April 1965 revolution and they escaped never to be seen again.
Some of the other principals that committed these atrocities are mostly dead by now anyway.
Let's focus our energies in eradicating hunger and illiteracy amongst other things we can do.
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 1:56 PM
From: United States
Baldoria23 When the haitian soldiery came to the eastern portion of the island in 1805 they burned down entire towns and villages and killed and raped indiscriminately. They killed woman and children the elderly, they mutilated people they burned them alive. Not only did they do it once when entering the former spanish territory but they did it again when leaving like cowards from the French arriving on ships. They commited even more atrocities with a larger force, this time with Dessalines a super racist that hated whites to the core. His "motto" was burn and kill everything. The invading haitian forces took 1,000's of people and made them slaves, they also raped woman and little girls. They were made to walk from places like La Vega and Santiago without shoes all the way to Haiti. So don't tell me that Rafael Leonidas Trujillo did not settle an old score that if anything was a walk in the park compared to what haitians in the past have perpetrated against innocent Dominicans.
From: United States
Trujillo's precise causes for ordering the massacre are hard to discern, but I'm not sure 'atrocities of the early 1800s' is really on that list. He seems to practical for that to be his motive, though anything is possible. Also I think even that as terrible as it was the event falls short of the scale that words like genocide and holocaust bring to my mind.
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 2:15 PM
From: United States
Trujillo's actions had to do principally with all the atrocities by Haitian soldiers, their abuses and racist sentiments towards the people that lived in the colonial period. But also the huge presence of Haitians inside the Dominican Republic in the 1930's, which he warned the haitian goverment of. Trujillo knew about the island's troublesome history with Haitians, something that many dominicans simply are not aware of, because of ignorance and brainwashing by today's apologists. Just look anywhere in the internet and search and look like haitians try to white wash their bloody history, not only internally but also externally.
Written by: zak325, 10 Feb 2009 2:15 PM
From: United States
Maria Feliciano's description of the murders of the 27 activist as"genocide" is totaly absurd, it proves that she does not know what the word means. Unless these 27 victims of the Trujillo regime were the last members of a distinct ethnic group, it is not genocide. The extream left needs to learn that a point can be made without using hyperbole.
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 2:23 PM
From: United States
Just look at the state of Haiti today. I guess? it's called "KARMA."
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 2:27 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
I agree with he first comment you made, not the second.
The theoretical philosophical arguments you bring to the table are just a bunch of "dilution".
Let us not rationalize the subject. Since you enjoy the study philosophy read also Jean Paul
Sartre "the Being and Nothingness" who was Simone's mentor.
To bring to the table terrible events from the past accomplishes nothing.
The Haitians did terrible cruel things when they invaded, and they behaved not like conquerors but more like raving bloodthirsty maniacs and mass murderers.
Trujillo also was brutal in the 1937 Haitian massacre, I have heard first hand accounts from
some military that were present narrating how Haitians were bayoneted to death.
Balaguer also had some terrible crimes during his first 12 years and had a policies of extermination to the heroes of the April 1965 revolution which were persecuted and murdered.
Let's leave all that grim past behind and find closure to end this vicious cycle forever.
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 2:30 PM
From: United States
JD_Dominguez The same problem occurs here in the U.S. and all over the world. The drug trade is just another means of making money for the banks, so please stop the rhetoric!!!!! When people stop using drugs then the problem will go away.
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 2:32 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
JD Dominguez
You don't get tired of always singing the same tune about choppo Pichardo et all?
It is getting tiresome, we have all read the same comments 20 times or more.
Why don't you put a paid advertisement?
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 2:36 PM
From: United States
JD_DOMINGUEZ Put on a commando suite get heavy weaponry and kill these idiots if they are such a problem. But make sure you come out alive, we will dearly miss you're rants online about the above subject?
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 2:41 PM
From: United States
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
I am going to start giving bus tours to this neighborhood JD you have made it very famous and Choppo and his brother are going to start a bachata act and get out of the drug business ....Good luck to you we would seriously miss you if they take you out
Written by: etiennc, 10 Feb 2009 2:48 PM
From: United States
Roso I hope this chapter will not be used as a leverage or an excuse when some Haitians can not get their way ,they will cry that they were victims of Troujillocaust.
The word is rather Pogrom instead of Holocaust
I think this horrible past should be examined not to grant priveledges but as way to help us grow as nation and understand the many changes taking place in this country as they are becominig a melting pot like the US
Roso please let me know if you agree with the semantics "Pogrom or Holocaust"
Por favor Roso have this discusiion with me and i also invite antonioj,Lautaro, Goulet Colonial
Just want to learn about Dominican history and thinking
Plase remember this is not a beauty contest ( You know who you are, you are not invited)
Written by: Gizmo , 10 Feb 2009 2:51 PM
From: United States
Some people make it sound like D.R. is the only country with a drug problem. Muchacho cojete un viaje para Miami, Where an AK-47 is the favorite weapon of choice for drug dealers. The problem is world wide and the money is used to make the "Bank Barons" more wealthy than what they are already. While the drug kingpins get busted and there property seized and sold on auctions, but the money goes to? you know it the "Bank Barons."
Written by: etiennc, 10 Feb 2009 2:53 PM
From: United States
Roso I almost forgot You have not sennt one word of Condolances to the Brugal family.
i would have known since I am a big consumer of Brutal I mean Brugal
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 3:11 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
etiennc
No I do not agree on the use of the word pogrom in this case. If the massacre would have been conducted in a spontaneous manner and conducted by crazed mobs that word would have applied. But not in this case. I also do not agree with the use of the word genocide to describe that event more so that it happened in 1937 and the word genocide was not used for the first time since 1944 against the Jewish people.
Regarding Brugal, they should give ME condolences because of all the liver damage caused by many years of using Brugal as a cure all. LOL.
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Feb 2009 3:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
generoso said: "If the massacre would have been conducted in a spontaneous manner and conducted by crazed mobs that word would have applied."
If I'm not mistaken, pogrom as a word would have its first usage when historians describe the routine, organized massacres carried out by the russian imperial troops against the jewish population of that kingdom, specially on the then duchy of Warsaw (Poland), so I don't think that it only denotes mob justice, general.
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 3:58 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Lautaro
Wrong. The massacre could have been instigated by Russian troops but CONDUCTED not by Russian troops that did nothing to stop it but by crazed mobs. So there is a big difference. The rest is correct.
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Feb 2009 4:00 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
So the term pogrom can't be used to describe the massacres of 1805/1937?
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 4:06 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Lautaro
Absolutely not. In 1805 the Haitian army was directly responsible not the Haitian mobs.
And in 1937 the Trujillo army was directly responsible not Dominican mobs.
To use the term pogrom would not be an accurate description of the events that took place at that time in our history.
From: United States, Washington
What the heck is pogrom? :-)
The 1937 massacre can best be described as Ethnic-Clensing.
As for my second statement, when I referenced de Beauvoir, there's nothing contentious about that idea. The Self always ascribes traits to the Other to make itself seem more privilege. Who the Self and the Other are is almost irrelevant, b/c the dynamics are always the same, ceteris paribus. And if this is the case, how can we accept, w/o questioning, the potential bias accounts of history? try to go beyond DR-Haitian relations... Hebrews (of old) and Gentiles; Men and Women; Whites and Non-whites; Rich and poor... These dichotomies, and biased architectures, exist whenever you have a dominant group and a subaltern.
Yes, Sartre and de Beauvoir were friends, colleagues, and lovers :-)
From: United States, Washington
If you bring in Foucault and the way he describes how the dominican groups get to DEFINE what's legitimate and what's not, what's good and what's bad, that's when you can really see how dominant groups create this facade to justify the reality that has them reaping the benefits of asymmetric power relations.
Again, think beyond DR-Haitian relations! many people, have knee-jerk reactions when they are being painted as the villian - whether it's true or not. What we need to define is an approach on how to deal w/ people based on principles of Human Rights, regardless of who they are. We need to also recognized that if someone from Santiago, murders someone from La vega, it doesn't mean that all Santiagueros are murderers; nor does it justify Veganos to kill any random Santiaguero!!!
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Feb 2009 5:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
baldoria said: "The 1937 massacre can best be described as Ethnic-Clensing."
The same could be said about Dessalines' devastation of the Cibao on 1805. What made things worse about that is that he would justify it by saying that he was only enforcing the constitution, which said that only blacks (and their wives of whatever skin tone) would be allowed to be haitian citizens, which would leave open the possibility of "disposing" of whatever person that didn't fit the citizenship criteria (in this case "his" criteria). In other words, ethnic cleansing elevated to law. While Trujillo is idolized by some, he in no way posess the status of national hero that Dessalines posess, so this should tell you that we dominicans aren't the only ones which need to make a "mea culpa". (cont..)
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Feb 2009 5:39 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) would you consider the following phrase by one of his secretaries, Louis Boisrond Tonnerre, innocent?: "All that which has been formulated is not in accordance with our true feelings; to draw up the Act of Independence, we need the skin of a white man for parchment, his skull for a writing inkwell, his blood for ink, and a bayonet for pen." Racism is a two way-street, in my humble opinion.
From: United States
Good convos guys :)
baldo in the end Nietsczhe shits on all those folk! Sure we may ask how can you trust 'biased' history but how could anyone write a disinterested history? Now there is something even less worthy of trust!
generoso I notice you said 'Trujillo's army' instead of Dominican army. Let's be fair here, Trujillo's army was the first (and only?) army of the Dominican state!
Pogrom, cleansing... which of these labels should we apply to the devastaciones inflicted on DR at the start of the 17th C.? That history is hardly mentioned here on DT.com but despite the smaller scale may be the the most obvious case of GENOCIDE. After the plunder by the Crown and the ensuing breakout of plague that followed they say there were less than 1,000 people left...Dominicans came dangerously close to extinction in that moment no?
From: United States
the event that happend in 1937 was in retaliation to constant border raiding by haitian irregulars.the haitians were attacking and plundering dominican settlements in the border region as well stealing cattle.this had been an ongoing problem and the haitian goverment was incapable of providing security on its side of the border which is still the case.haitian have always been a menace to the security and territorial integrity of the dominican republic. read your history and remember it well. do not be duped by false propaganda or the nonsense of tolerating the haitian. since he was in the womb of his mother he has been taught that santo domingo belongs to his people.
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 7:59 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Manhattanite
I said Trujillo's army. The most correct thing to have said in that instance was:
"The Dominican army under dictator Trujillo's orders."
It was his direct order, some said while inebriated, that started the sad events of 1937. It was his total responsibility as highest ranking military officer in the armed forces. OK?
eltinaje01
All that you said was true, but still does not excuse us or Trujillo from that terrible and needless massacre. The results still haunt us to this day.
Written by: josean, 10 Feb 2009 8:14 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 1:47 PM
From: United States
"Let sleeping dog lay" Old Chinese proverb.
Let's move forward, things like this just inflame old wounds.
The Mirabal murderers were let loose during the April 1965 revolution and they escaped never to be seen again.
Some of the other principals that committed these atrocities are mostly dead by now anyway.
Let's focus our energies in eradicating hunger and illiteracy amongst other things we can do.
Professor,
Would you recommended that to the Jewish community as well?
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 8:18 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
josean
I know that I will get loads of flak for this but it's about time the Israeli nation bury the past as well and stop getting mileage for the terrible and sad events inflicted on them by the Germans of the past mid 20 TH Century.
Written by: josean, 10 Feb 2009 8:30 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
getting mileage? Is that what fighting for justice is called nowadays?
sad events? Is that what you consider the murder of 6 million Jews is a sad event?
Are you crazy?
I did not now you were the Nutty Professor!
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 8:37 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Maybe I am Baron von Münchhausen.
Those are the verbatim words of my past philosophy professor in class.
And I agree with them It doesn't matter the magnitude of the amount or the method that was used.
Is the same point we have been discussing. It's time to stop the finger pointing and spreading hate and guilt and just move forward. Remember the Israeli motto "Never Again".
You must know and remember history and try to learn from the mistakes so they will no be repeated ever again.
Otherwise humanity will never stop this vicious cycle of wanting payback and looking for revenge.
Written by: etiennc, 10 Feb 2009 8:53 PM
From: United States
Thanks guys.
I have heard this word the word from Al Sharpton and I was too lazy to clarify the difference
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
I think it’s too late for this, whom will they find. What about others that commited crimes “Wessin Y Wessin” against Dominicans that we know are still alive.
These, guys are mostly all dead. When was this 1937? So even if some one was 25 when they did this they should be 88.
Leonel would free them anyway, they are too old to do time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xikENlquAFrom: United States, New York
I agree that the term Holocaust is being used way too loosely in this case, but it is quite a headline grabber (+ from New Jersey?). Regarding Trujillo and 1937, there are several versions for his reasons behind the massacre inlcuding that he wanted to punish Haitian nationals because Haiti was giving political asylum to his Dominican opponents. There is also his own personal issue of not being able to "fit in" with the traditional Spanish descendant white elite because he was 1/4 Haitian, although growing up he seems to have been pretty close to his Haitian family so the whole incident does seem odd. Just my 2 cents, if anyone has more info, feel free to enlighten.
From: United States
El Jefe, did everything by the book.
He rather "be feared than loved".
During his regime, DR pick as a nation, since then the country had become a "Pigsly"
Written by: generoso, 10 Feb 2009 10:09 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
OndeVert or greenwave
It is obvious because of your rabies and support for the mad dictator Trujillo that you are in exile and probably related to a Trujillo goon. Well you can fry in hell with all your Trujillo loving murderous family as well esbirro desgraciado!
You were thrown out once of DT and you will be disposed of again!
Just like the heroes of the 30 of May gave your idol Trujillo some of his own medicine.....
Plenty hot patriots lead in his pretty face!
From: United States, Washington
"Read your history," some one said above; but what if that history is wrong? Why do some of you doubt the things said by todays' government, yet don't question the same propaganda that was pushed on us by old leaders? Do you not see a disconnect there? remember that books read in schools are those that support the dominant view of things. But the Dominant view, is not necessarily 100% correct. Maybe the differences have been exaggerated? Maybe someone is strechtcing the truth when they say 27K or 37K dead in the 1937 massacres... But if that's the case, what makes us believe that the accounts from 1805 are correct? Maybe they too were exaggerated... I don't know, nor actually care, b/c past atrocities (1805 or 1937) do not legitimize today's human rights abuses.
Gente, doubt everything, and treat people the way you want to be treated. Remember, if we have biased views about the Other, the Other has negative views about us. That Other can be Americans, Haitians, or Chinese!
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Feb 2009 10:43 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Manhattanite said: which of these labels should we apply to the devastaciones inflicted on DR at the start of the 17th C.? That history is hardly mentioned here on DT.com but despite the smaller scale may be the the most obvious case of GENOCIDE. After the plunder by the Crown and the ensuing breakout of plague that followed they say there were less than 1,000 people left...Dominicans came dangerously close to extinction in that moment no?
You can say that again. That event (Las Devastaciones de Osorio, 1605-06), should be at the forefront of the national conscience, cuz' that event would be the one to deny us dominicans the chance of having the seas as our only borders, forever. That event came about because of the spanish crown's intention of preserving the monopoly of the sevillian merchants over the commerce between the metropolis and the New World colonies, a monopoly that was infringed time and again by the proto-dominican colonists with their trading with Spain's enemies.
Written by: etiennc, 11 Feb 2009 12:16 AM
From: United States
Amen ! Dominican today is back stronger than ever.
All Haitians and all in between like me, just shut the hell up , read and learn.
Roso I have spit that good rhum under your wings , I have massaged your legs with that voodoo oil and sharpen your spurs , I have betted my last hard working dollar on you.
You are my KOK KALITE win the fight
I am going to cook a rooster asopao with the loosing rooster
Written by: generoso, 11 Feb 2009 5:38 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
etiennc
Thanks for the comparison.
The Dominican cock is the bravest bird or animal. I have seen cocks put up a fight versus a bull with no fear whatsoever. And make the bull run away.
Balaguer took the symbol for his party the PRSC, and I never liked Balaguer as he was evil and had no feelings for anyone but himself. But he was sure a cocky fighter when pronged. I saw him on TV once humiliating publicly the meanest steel balls general of them all General Wessin and Wessin,
and he didn't even flinch once.
Yes, the cock is my hero. It is fun to eat the losing one in a fight in a locrio, it is kind of a sick ritual.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
very interesting discussion....... I would only add something if it was controversial ...... on this subject I would not dare
Written by: Edward, 11 Feb 2009 7:29 PM
From: United States, Faux News: Unfair Imbalance
I hope they pay. My uncle Miguel Mercedes was killed by the Trujillo people when he was 18 in 1960 because he was in the opposition.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Fast eddy from Lemster we will make sure the money goes to his favorite charity
Written by: Cruz666, 11 Feb 2009 8:09 PM
From: United States
About time. Atrocities committed against innocent Haitians by Trujillo will also be brought back to surface so justice can be rendered in several forms. Stay tuned!
"The Rational Mind"
Written by: josean, 11 Feb 2009 8:17 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Written by: Edward, 11 Feb 2009 7:29 PM
From: United States, Leominster, Massachusetts
I hope they pay. My uncle Miguel Mercedes was killed by the Trujillo people when he was 18 in 1960 because he was in the opposition.
I am truly sorry for your loss.
But Eddie how can you then support Lie-onel who has one of the dirtiest Trujillistas alive in his government; Vincho Castillo?
Written by: josean, 11 Feb 2009 8:40 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Written by: Mirador, 12 Feb 2009 7:41 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Las Lomas de Azua
OK, I'll say it. It was Juan Bosch proclamation at the beginning of his short lived presidency, of "Borrón y cuenta nueva", in dealing with the crimes of the Trujillo era, that has led to this and other horrifying crimes to go unpunished.
Written by: Cruz666, 12 Feb 2009 11:28 AM
From: United States
Trujillo didn't just kill just 40,000 Haitians. He was like Papa Doc of Haiti. He systematically eliminated most of his Dominican political opponents. The man was a maniac.
"The Rational Mind"
Written by: generoso, 12 Feb 2009 11:37 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Mirador
You might have a good point there as I remember that edict of "borrón y cuenta nueva".
They should have persecuted, arrested and tried the murderers just like it was done to the nazis after WW II so these crimes can never happen again.
That is where the term "impunity" was born alive and well, and later flourished to it's present grotesque manifestation.
Don Juan needed to borrow the balls of later president Antonio Guzman who did clean up the
political military cliques of those days and retired all of them for eternity.
Juan Bosch never got rid of the Trujillo military and necessary purges were not done, and they came back with renewed vigor and bit him in the ass deposing him in 1963.
From: United States, Washington
Unfortunately, the "borron y cuenta nueva" is part of the guarantees that democratic leaders had to give to dictatorships in order to move away from dictatorship. It was the case in the DR, Chile, Uruguay, and a host of other young democracies... Doesn't make it right though!
I like a middle ground approach, akin to South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation initiative. That way the truth about the atrocities come out, but stability is preserved. THe thing is that what Juan Bosch did back in '63 was what was needed at the time. But now we're so far remove from the threat of dictatorship reestablishing itself, that we can move forward w/ disclosing the truth and potentially taking away the ill gains of those trujillistas got their wealth through ill means.
Written by: josean, 12 Feb 2009 1:19 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
"But now we're so far remove from the threat of dictatorship reestablishing itself, that we can move forward w/ disclosing the truth and potentially taking away the ill gains of those trujillistas got their wealth through ill means."
Your the man Mr. baldoria23!
From: United States, Washington
Josean...
Those of us w/ liberal thinking systematically agree on many, if not most issues. Pro-Human Rights, Decreased Inequality, Strong Welfare-State, Strengthening Democratic institutions and process, persecuting crime and corruption w/ equal vehemence, among other issues...
Here's to you Josean... send me a PM and tell me where in the US you're based.
cheers,
Written by: josean, 12 Feb 2009 1:50 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Thank you , sir!
One of Mandela's great gifts and examples to humanity (and he has many) was The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trut....liation_Commission_(South_Africa)I think this should be seriously considered consider in the Dominican Republic.
In fact Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont is proposing a similar process to President Obama so the Bush era criminals can spill their guts on the criminality of the last 8 years!
Written by: generoso, 12 Feb 2009 2:51 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
You not have a accurate understanding of the events during and after the fall of Trujillo.
Juan Bosch didn't have to compromise anything with the Trujillo regime. He was elected by democratic landslide. He had all the support of the masses when he received the transfer of power from the interim government post Balaguer which was called "Consejo de Estado" and there was no negotiating like in the case of Chile.
He could have removed, retired, arrested, exiled, deported many of the Trujillo military criminals that were hiding behind their uniform. He didn't.
To put it in plain but courteous english, "he didn't want to rock the boat".
Some others say that he didn't have the "testicular fortitude" to lock horns with the
Trujillo military.
Few torturers and murderers were convicted and tried, the ones that did, like in the case of the assassins of the Mirabal sisters were convicted and escaped during the confusion of the April, 1965 war remaining free to this day.
From: United States, Washington
Generoso, I point you to the VAST literature on democratic transition which provides a typology of the approach adopted by "democratizers" vis-a-vis the old regime. Democratizers could either take a hardline & try to prosecute the dictators, or they could provide them w/ guarantees in order to safeguard stability. These guarantees could be public, as in the case of Chile, or they could be tacit as in the case of Uruguay. The DR could be more like Uruguay & portugal, but it definitely follows that mold. The fact that these guarantees were not published in the papers, doesn't mean they weren't there...
Written by: generoso, 12 Feb 2009 7:12 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
Stick to the point please. You made an historically incorrect remark and I corrected you.
The Trujillo military guilty of murder and torture had no business remaining in the Dominican armed
forces after the democratically elected government took office, strictly from a "historical revisionism" point of view.
We are talking here time span 1962. One year after the brutal dictator was executed by Dominican patriots that offered their life for freedom.
President Juan Bosch gave no guarantees public or private otherwise they would have been known by now.
Stop apologizing for something that should have been done in 1962 but Bosch didn't have the nerve to do it. Period.
The armed forces should have been purged and the undesirable elements and criminals removed and brought to justice. Instead they remained in power to inflict more damage to the Dominican population now with a different banner of "anti-communism".
Written by: generoso, 12 Feb 2009 7:16 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Con't
They kept on doing their "trade" of raping, pillaging and looting with total impunity.
This is the corruption legacy that is corroding our country's ethics and morality at present.
If the April 1965 revolution would have not been stillbirth by the US intervention then it would have been another story and maybe, just maybe the criminals would have been brought to justice.
Written by: Gizmo , 12 Feb 2009 9:13 PM
From: United States
Baldoria23 stay in school, in fact live there. You have much to learn!
From: United States
generoso was a purge possible? Meaning how many honest soldiers vs. Trujillistas remained? As always thanks for bringing details from the period.
Written by: etiennc, 14 Feb 2009 12:05 PM
From: United States
Roso, I am very proud of you.
These topics show your excellence in Dominican history you also examine the conscience of the Dominican people
Written by: etiennc, 14 Feb 2009 12:13 PM
From: United States
Perception you and gizmo are unconfortable ,clumsy and akward and a little bit weird when dealing with serious subject matters.
Subject matters when discussed deeply and objectively can change the thinking of so many.
Do like me stay put and learn from the conneuseurs,
Or wait for articles on Haiti so you can trade insults (your forte) with the Haitian gang(Cruzz666,Haitian1804,Dominicanation)
Written by: generoso, 14 Feb 2009 12:27 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Manhattanite
Hard to say because 20/20 vision in retrospect is always 100% correct. Point is that Juan Bosch didn't pursue earlier and with vigor the removal of the guilty military officers entrenched in their fortresses hiding behind their uniforms.
They discovered much later that when the "pueblo" rose in April 1965 and was mad as hell couldn't be stopped.
All options were tried to stop this rebellion including navy ships bombarding from the water, P-51 planes strafing civilians at the puente Duarte, and modern tanks trying to make their way to the city. All defeated by the populace that was mad as hell and couldn't take it anymore.
They were honest military officers that were not involved in murders in the armed forces that were inherited from Trujillo's time, like Coronel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez the real force and leader
for the revolution, he was Trujillo's son close friend so were Coronel Montes Arache
the head of the feared "frogmen" and even Coronel Francis Caamaño.
Written by: Mirador, 14 Feb 2009 8:58 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Las Lomas de Azua
Manhattanite,
I'm sorry to correct you, but it was not a civilian rebelion. It only became so when one of the military factions distributed weapons among the civilians, and it was those same armed civilians, some armed with 50 cal machine guns, that were straffed and bombed at the head of the Duarte bridge, by the other military faction.
From: United States
Subject matters when discussed deeply and objectively can change the thinking of so many.
ooooo
Really, I think your going to implode due to "intestinal failure".
You must be very young or intelectually incapacitated !!!!!
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 10:21 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Mirador
Partly correct. It started as a military uprising when two military camps declared themselves in rebellion against the Triunvirato government of two, headed by Donal Reid Cabral.
In the beginning arms were distributed to retired military by the constitutionalist forces to veterans that had to show their ID before arms were issued, and to many civilians as well who joined the commando units headed by an experienced military.
They were many civilians without weapons fighting Russian style next to an armed commando waiting for a weapon to become available to join the fight. This mostly civilian army included women and children as well.
Written by: Mirador, 15 Feb 2009 6:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Las Lomas de Azua
Generoso
Partly correct, again. When the military insurgents who had taken over the western head of the Duarte bridge were straffed by P51 Mustangs from the San Isidro air force base, they broke ranks and fled, leaving weapons and a 50 cal machine gun behind. Then a dissorganized group of civilians decided to take over the position, and were gunned down, one by one, from the P51 and other weapons fired from loyal government military forces advancing from the eastern side of the bridge. My own cousin, General Ramiro Matos Gonzalez, a tank commander, was injured and lost an eye from his wounds on that encounter.
From: United States
As always thanks for the details generoso and Mirador! These are great to hear from people in much closer proximity to the events.
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 10:04 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Mirador
I do not take sides when relating historic events. General Ramiro Matos is a legend in the Dominican armed forces and a brave man and student of my close friend Antonio Prats Ventos his teacher. If in doubt ask him. He was a sculptor, painter, armored car designer and brave warrior.
He did lose an eye while riding in his French made AMX-13 tank crossing the Duarte bridge where he was evacuated.
Your short narration of events is correct but missing information as well. "the Battle of the Duarte Bridge" the most important battle of the April 1965 revolution was lost by the CEFA much later after the air battle when all the tanks that broke open the two sugar cane trucks blockading the bridge were burned or captured by the constitutionalist forces, AFTER they crossed the bridge.
And BTW they had more than a .50 caliber available to them, they had a few small cannons, bazookas, and hundreds of "burn on impact" Molotov cocktails. (the ones that don't have to be lit on fire).
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
I am enjoying the fascinating detail here ....I have often wondered if in Elmore Leonards book Cat Chaser the part where the young marine is taken prisoner when the building collapses around him .is based on true facts ...the geography part that is ...Leonard is renowned for doing research on his locales....the marine is taken prisoner when the building collapses after taking a couple of shells from atop the grain elevators held by the 82nd on the other side of the Ozama ....Almost ten years after having first reading the book I find myself living in the zona colonial and want to check the book again to see how close to real the setting is ...Well to my great surprise old Leonard certainly holds up, the address that he gives for the building that collapses on Isabela Catolica is now a parking lot that I can see from my balcony ....I am curious about the shells from the grain elevator ..I will have to ask some of my older neighbors
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 11:34 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Part of the story is true. This is what really happened.
After the US paratroops and marine landings the Ozama fortress was under siege by rebel commandos and some regular military, then a small
Swedish made L-60 light tank joined the battle and started shooting at the fortress walls and doors to get at the police men barricaded there. As you know the Ozama fortress south wall leads to the river and ocean. Some desperate police men in those days known as the "cascos blancos" because they wore a white helmet jumped the Ozama fortress
high wall and ran to the river were they swam to the other side were safety was. The US paratroopers needed
a high ground observation post and the tallest building around there, was the
Molinos Dominicanos" tall wheat mill building where they climbed on top of the roof and set a sniper team manned by snipers armed with high power scoped rifles and a 106mm recoilless rifle with a single shot .50 caliber spotter on top of it.
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 11:39 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Con't
US army paratroop snipers took leisurely pot shots at civilians or commandos in the colonial zone, killing famous French soldier of
fortune Andres Riviere and many others. Andres was a veteran of the French foreign legion, Algiers and Diem Bin Phu and joined the revolution while staying as a tourist in a colonial zone hotel and asked Coronel Montes Arache to let him fight
on the constitutionalist side. (As related to me by Coronel Montes Arache).
The US sniper on top of "molinos" was a dead shot and you could not walk leisurely along the colonial zone without risk of being targeted by him specially if you were carrying a weapon of any kind. He probably is still alive since this was only 44 years ago and he could document and tell us his side of the story.
The 82 ND airborne paratroopers crossing the Duarte bridge shot and sank with 106 mm recoiless rifle mounted on a jeep, a big civilian cargo ship that was cruising the Ozama river trying to get to sea.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
actually in the book the building is collapsed by a recoilless rifle mounted at molinos.....The building certainly is not there anymore
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 11:52 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Some poorly equiped and trained constitutionalists snipers from the rebel side shooting randomly at the US forces with light range weapons such as obsolete (made at the Armeria in San Cristobal by ex-patriate Yugoslavian immigrants) 7mm mausers and 30 M1 Cristobal carbines and the US army and marines shooting back with immense firepower including helicopters with rockets and machine guns and 106 mm recoilless rifles destroying whole buildings and floors.
Some desperate snipers even shot at the US forces with .22's and air rifles wishing afterwards that
they had not done so because of the disproportionate response from helicopters and cannons.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
have you ever read the " Cat Chaser" by Elmore Leonard ....you will be highly amused
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 11:56 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
I remember there was a single 106 mm recoilless rifle with a .50 caliber spotter on top of "Molinos Dominicanos" , so the writer of the book although fiction, took his facts from real events that happened between April 1965 to September 1965. Most possible it was manned by paratroopers of the 82 ND Airborne "All The Way" since they were in that part of the city, having advanced from San Isidro air force base. The marines came in from Haina and also landed in the polo grounds of the Embajador hotel by helicopter from the US Navy ships in the coastline.
Written by: generoso, 15 Feb 2009 11:57 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
I don't believe I have but I will order it from Amazon, Thanks.
Roger and out.
Written by: etiennc, 16 Feb 2009 7:06 AM
From: United States
A good day today !
We have all learned something today.
Perception ,in the language you can understand "SHUT THE HELL UP"
Written by: generoso, 16 Feb 2009 7:36 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
etiennc
BTW there was in the April 1965 revolution a 100% Haitian commando unit fighting alongside the
Dominican patriots, and they were very brave and fearless taking many casualties.
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In all, the surviving trujillistas should be brought to justice for their atrocities against humanity. "I was fallowing orders" is not a legitimate defense!
cheers,
isn't it a bit late for this ? ? ?
Hate is easy, and it's easy to point fingers. What is hard is standing up for human rights and justice. Vengeance is not justice, vengence is something we teach our kids is bad, so why not apply that to bigger things.
Gizmo, many people think like you, but just think if that rule that you just supported was what was generally practiced in the world. Where would it stop? This is Kant's ideal of the moral imperative...
I've been reading Simone de Beauvior's "The Second Sex," and in the introduction she gives a great & concise account of the relationship btw the Self and the Other. The Self needs to create the Other in order to exist. But what's wrong is when the Self starts ascribing negative traits to the Other in order to elevate itself to an artificial privilege position. Then the Self, who sees itself as essential and objectifies the Other, creates all these MYTHS to justify it's privileged state. Moreover, it presents the status quo as NATURAL and UNQUESTIONABLE.
That's why we need to DOUBT history, b/c it was written by the victors, and guess what, don't be surprise if the exaggerate here and there to make the Self look noble and the Other ignoble.
Anyway, I digressed. But a theoretical discusison can help us understand our realit
Let's move forward, things like this just inflame old wounds.
The Mirabal murderers were let loose during the April 1965 revolution and they escaped never to be seen again.
Some of the other principals that committed these atrocities are mostly dead by now anyway.
Let's focus our energies in eradicating hunger and illiteracy amongst other things we can do.
I agree with he first comment you made, not the second.
The theoretical philosophical arguments you bring to the table are just a bunch of "dilution".
Let us not rationalize the subject. Since you enjoy the study philosophy read also Jean Paul
Sartre "the Being and Nothingness" who was Simone's mentor.
To bring to the table terrible events from the past accomplishes nothing.
The Haitians did terrible cruel things when they invaded, and they behaved not like conquerors but more like raving bloodthirsty maniacs and mass murderers.
Trujillo also was brutal in the 1937 Haitian massacre, I have heard first hand accounts from
some military that were present narrating how Haitians were bayoneted to death.
Balaguer also had some terrible crimes during his first 12 years and had a policies of extermination to the heroes of the April 1965 revolution which were persecuted and murdered.
Let's leave all that grim past behind and find closure to end this vicious cycle forever.
You don't get tired of always singing the same tune about choppo Pichardo et all?
It is getting tiresome, we have all read the same comments 20 times or more.
Why don't you put a paid advertisement?
The word is rather Pogrom instead of Holocaust
I think this horrible past should be examined not to grant priveledges but as way to help us grow as nation and understand the many changes taking place in this country as they are becominig a melting pot like the US
Roso please let me know if you agree with the semantics "Pogrom or Holocaust"
Por favor Roso have this discusiion with me and i also invite antonioj,Lautaro, Goulet Colonial
Just want to learn about Dominican history and thinking
Plase remember this is not a beauty contest ( You know who you are, you are not invited)
i would have known since I am a big consumer of Brutal I mean Brugal
No I do not agree on the use of the word pogrom in this case. If the massacre would have been conducted in a spontaneous manner and conducted by crazed mobs that word would have applied. But not in this case. I also do not agree with the use of the word genocide to describe that event more so that it happened in 1937 and the word genocide was not used for the first time since 1944 against the Jewish people.
Regarding Brugal, they should give ME condolences because of all the liver damage caused by many years of using Brugal as a cure all. LOL.
If I'm not mistaken, pogrom as a word would have its first usage when historians describe the routine, organized massacres carried out by the russian imperial troops against the jewish population of that kingdom, specially on the then duchy of Warsaw (Poland), so I don't think that it only denotes mob justice, general.
Wrong. The massacre could have been instigated by Russian troops but CONDUCTED not by Russian troops that did nothing to stop it but by crazed mobs. So there is a big difference. The rest is correct.
Absolutely not. In 1805 the Haitian army was directly responsible not the Haitian mobs.
And in 1937 the Trujillo army was directly responsible not Dominican mobs.
To use the term pogrom would not be an accurate description of the events that took place at that time in our history.
The 1937 massacre can best be described as Ethnic-Clensing.
As for my second statement, when I referenced de Beauvoir, there's nothing contentious about that idea. The Self always ascribes traits to the Other to make itself seem more privilege. Who the Self and the Other are is almost irrelevant, b/c the dynamics are always the same, ceteris paribus. And if this is the case, how can we accept, w/o questioning, the potential bias accounts of history? try to go beyond DR-Haitian relations... Hebrews (of old) and Gentiles; Men and Women; Whites and Non-whites; Rich and poor... These dichotomies, and biased architectures, exist whenever you have a dominant group and a subaltern.
Yes, Sartre and de Beauvoir were friends, colleagues, and lovers :-)
Again, think beyond DR-Haitian relations! many people, have knee-jerk reactions when they are being painted as the villian - whether it's true or not. What we need to define is an approach on how to deal w/ people based on principles of Human Rights, regardless of who they are. We need to also recognized that if someone from Santiago, murders someone from La vega, it doesn't mean that all Santiagueros are murderers; nor does it justify Veganos to kill any random Santiaguero!!!
The same could be said about Dessalines' devastation of the Cibao on 1805. What made things worse about that is that he would justify it by saying that he was only enforcing the constitution, which said that only blacks (and their wives of whatever skin tone) would be allowed to be haitian citizens, which would leave open the possibility of "disposing" of whatever person that didn't fit the citizenship criteria (in this case "his" criteria). In other words, ethnic cleansing elevated to law. While Trujillo is idolized by some, he in no way posess the status of national hero that Dessalines posess, so this should tell you that we dominicans aren't the only ones which need to make a "mea culpa". (cont..)
baldo in the end Nietsczhe shits on all those folk! Sure we may ask how can you trust 'biased' history but how could anyone write a disinterested history? Now there is something even less worthy of trust!
generoso I notice you said 'Trujillo's army' instead of Dominican army. Let's be fair here, Trujillo's army was the first (and only?) army of the Dominican state!
Pogrom, cleansing... which of these labels should we apply to the devastaciones inflicted on DR at the start of the 17th C.? That history is hardly mentioned here on DT.com but despite the smaller scale may be the the most obvious case of GENOCIDE. After the plunder by the Crown and the ensuing breakout of plague that followed they say there were less than 1,000 people left...Dominicans came dangerously close to extinction in that moment no?
I said Trujillo's army. The most correct thing to have said in that instance was:
"The Dominican army under dictator Trujillo's orders."
It was his direct order, some said while inebriated, that started the sad events of 1937. It was his total responsibility as highest ranking military officer in the armed forces. OK?
eltinaje01
All that you said was true, but still does not excuse us or Trujillo from that terrible and needless massacre. The results still haunt us to this day.
From: United States
"Let sleeping dog lay" Old Chinese proverb.
Let's move forward, things like this just inflame old wounds.
The Mirabal murderers were let loose during the April 1965 revolution and they escaped never to be seen again.
Some of the other principals that committed these atrocities are mostly dead by now anyway.
Let's focus our energies in eradicating hunger and illiteracy amongst other things we can do.
Professor,
Would you recommended that to the Jewish community as well?
I know that I will get loads of flak for this but it's about time the Israeli nation bury the past as well and stop getting mileage for the terrible and sad events inflicted on them by the Germans of the past mid 20 TH Century.
sad events? Is that what you consider the murder of 6 million Jews is a sad event?
Are you crazy?
I did not now you were the Nutty Professor!
Those are the verbatim words of my past philosophy professor in class.
And I agree with them It doesn't matter the magnitude of the amount or the method that was used.
Is the same point we have been discussing. It's time to stop the finger pointing and spreading hate and guilt and just move forward. Remember the Israeli motto "Never Again".
You must know and remember history and try to learn from the mistakes so they will no be repeated ever again.
Otherwise humanity will never stop this vicious cycle of wanting payback and looking for revenge.
I have heard this word the word from Al Sharpton and I was too lazy to clarify the difference
These, guys are mostly all dead. When was this 1937? So even if some one was 25 when they did this they should be 88.
Leonel would free them anyway, they are too old to do time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xikENlquA
He rather "be feared than loved".
During his regime, DR pick as a nation, since then the country had become a "Pigsly"
It is obvious because of your rabies and support for the mad dictator Trujillo that you are in exile and probably related to a Trujillo goon. Well you can fry in hell with all your Trujillo loving murderous family as well esbirro desgraciado!
You were thrown out once of DT and you will be disposed of again!
Just like the heroes of the 30 of May gave your idol Trujillo some of his own medicine.....
Plenty hot patriots lead in his pretty face!
Gente, doubt everything, and treat people the way you want to be treated. Remember, if we have biased views about the Other, the Other has negative views about us. That Other can be Americans, Haitians, or Chinese!
You can say that again. That event (Las Devastaciones de Osorio, 1605-06), should be at the forefront of the national conscience, cuz' that event would be the one to deny us dominicans the chance of having the seas as our only borders, forever. That event came about because of the spanish crown's intention of preserving the monopoly of the sevillian merchants over the commerce between the metropolis and the New World colonies, a monopoly that was infringed time and again by the proto-dominican colonists with their trading with Spain's enemies.
All Haitians and all in between like me, just shut the hell up , read and learn.
Roso I have spit that good rhum under your wings , I have massaged your legs with that voodoo oil and sharpen your spurs , I have betted my last hard working dollar on you.
You are my KOK KALITE win the fight
I am going to cook a rooster asopao with the loosing rooster
Thanks for the comparison.
The Dominican cock is the bravest bird or animal. I have seen cocks put up a fight versus a bull with no fear whatsoever. And make the bull run away.
Balaguer took the symbol for his party the PRSC, and I never liked Balaguer as he was evil and had no feelings for anyone but himself. But he was sure a cocky fighter when pronged. I saw him on TV once humiliating publicly the meanest steel balls general of them all General Wessin and Wessin,
and he didn't even flinch once.
Yes, the cock is my hero. It is fun to eat the losing one in a fight in a locrio, it is kind of a sick ritual.
"The Rational Mind"
From: United States, Leominster, Massachusetts
I hope they pay. My uncle Miguel Mercedes was killed by the Trujillo people when he was 18 in 1960 because he was in the opposition.
I am truly sorry for your loss.
But Eddie how can you then support Lie-onel who has one of the dirtiest Trujillistas alive in his government; Vincho Castillo?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,606323,00.html
"The Rational Mind"
You might have a good point there as I remember that edict of "borrón y cuenta nueva".
They should have persecuted, arrested and tried the murderers just like it was done to the nazis after WW II so these crimes can never happen again.
That is where the term "impunity" was born alive and well, and later flourished to it's present grotesque manifestation.
Don Juan needed to borrow the balls of later president Antonio Guzman who did clean up the
political military cliques of those days and retired all of them for eternity.
Juan Bosch never got rid of the Trujillo military and necessary purges were not done, and they came back with renewed vigor and bit him in the ass deposing him in 1963.
I like a middle ground approach, akin to South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation initiative. That way the truth about the atrocities come out, but stability is preserved. THe thing is that what Juan Bosch did back in '63 was what was needed at the time. But now we're so far remove from the threat of dictatorship reestablishing itself, that we can move forward w/ disclosing the truth and potentially taking away the ill gains of those trujillistas got their wealth through ill means.
Your the man Mr. baldoria23!
Those of us w/ liberal thinking systematically agree on many, if not most issues. Pro-Human Rights, Decreased Inequality, Strong Welfare-State, Strengthening Democratic institutions and process, persecuting crime and corruption w/ equal vehemence, among other issues...
Here's to you Josean... send me a PM and tell me where in the US you're based.
cheers,
One of Mandela's great gifts and examples to humanity (and he has many) was The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trut....liation_Commission_(South_Africa)
I think this should be seriously considered consider in the Dominican Republic.
In fact Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont is proposing a similar process to President Obama so the Bush era criminals can spill their guts on the criminality of the last 8 years!
You not have a accurate understanding of the events during and after the fall of Trujillo.
Juan Bosch didn't have to compromise anything with the Trujillo regime. He was elected by democratic landslide. He had all the support of the masses when he received the transfer of power from the interim government post Balaguer which was called "Consejo de Estado" and there was no negotiating like in the case of Chile.
He could have removed, retired, arrested, exiled, deported many of the Trujillo military criminals that were hiding behind their uniform. He didn't.
To put it in plain but courteous english, "he didn't want to rock the boat".
Some others say that he didn't have the "testicular fortitude" to lock horns with the
Trujillo military.
Few torturers and murderers were convicted and tried, the ones that did, like in the case of the assassins of the Mirabal sisters were convicted and escaped during the confusion of the April, 1965 war remaining free to this day.
Stick to the point please. You made an historically incorrect remark and I corrected you.
The Trujillo military guilty of murder and torture had no business remaining in the Dominican armed
forces after the democratically elected government took office, strictly from a "historical revisionism" point of view.
We are talking here time span 1962. One year after the brutal dictator was executed by Dominican patriots that offered their life for freedom.
President Juan Bosch gave no guarantees public or private otherwise they would have been known by now.
Stop apologizing for something that should have been done in 1962 but Bosch didn't have the nerve to do it. Period.
The armed forces should have been purged and the undesirable elements and criminals removed and brought to justice. Instead they remained in power to inflict more damage to the Dominican population now with a different banner of "anti-communism".
They kept on doing their "trade" of raping, pillaging and looting with total impunity.
This is the corruption legacy that is corroding our country's ethics and morality at present.
If the April 1965 revolution would have not been stillbirth by the US intervention then it would have been another story and maybe, just maybe the criminals would have been brought to justice.
Que Viva El Jefe !!!!!!
HAyyyyy, tranquilo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhDqFTUSfd8
These topics show your excellence in Dominican history you also examine the conscience of the Dominican people
Subject matters when discussed deeply and objectively can change the thinking of so many.
Do like me stay put and learn from the conneuseurs,
Or wait for articles on Haiti so you can trade insults (your forte) with the Haitian gang(Cruzz666,Haitian1804,Dominicanation)
Hard to say because 20/20 vision in retrospect is always 100% correct. Point is that Juan Bosch didn't pursue earlier and with vigor the removal of the guilty military officers entrenched in their fortresses hiding behind their uniforms.
They discovered much later that when the "pueblo" rose in April 1965 and was mad as hell couldn't be stopped.
All options were tried to stop this rebellion including navy ships bombarding from the water, P-51 planes strafing civilians at the puente Duarte, and modern tanks trying to make their way to the city. All defeated by the populace that was mad as hell and couldn't take it anymore.
They were honest military officers that were not involved in murders in the armed forces that were inherited from Trujillo's time, like Coronel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez the real force and leader
for the revolution, he was Trujillo's son close friend so were Coronel Montes Arache
the head of the feared "frogmen" and even Coronel Francis Caamaño.
I'm sorry to correct you, but it was not a civilian rebelion. It only became so when one of the military factions distributed weapons among the civilians, and it was those same armed civilians, some armed with 50 cal machine guns, that were straffed and bombed at the head of the Duarte bridge, by the other military faction.
ooooo
Really, I think your going to implode due to "intestinal failure".
You must be very young or intelectually incapacitated !!!!!
Partly correct. It started as a military uprising when two military camps declared themselves in rebellion against the Triunvirato government of two, headed by Donal Reid Cabral.
In the beginning arms were distributed to retired military by the constitutionalist forces to veterans that had to show their ID before arms were issued, and to many civilians as well who joined the commando units headed by an experienced military.
They were many civilians without weapons fighting Russian style next to an armed commando waiting for a weapon to become available to join the fight. This mostly civilian army included women and children as well.
Partly correct, again. When the military insurgents who had taken over the western head of the Duarte bridge were straffed by P51 Mustangs from the San Isidro air force base, they broke ranks and fled, leaving weapons and a 50 cal machine gun behind. Then a dissorganized group of civilians decided to take over the position, and were gunned down, one by one, from the P51 and other weapons fired from loyal government military forces advancing from the eastern side of the bridge. My own cousin, General Ramiro Matos Gonzalez, a tank commander, was injured and lost an eye from his wounds on that encounter.
I do not take sides when relating historic events. General Ramiro Matos is a legend in the Dominican armed forces and a brave man and student of my close friend Antonio Prats Ventos his teacher. If in doubt ask him. He was a sculptor, painter, armored car designer and brave warrior.
He did lose an eye while riding in his French made AMX-13 tank crossing the Duarte bridge where he was evacuated.
Your short narration of events is correct but missing information as well. "the Battle of the Duarte Bridge" the most important battle of the April 1965 revolution was lost by the CEFA much later after the air battle when all the tanks that broke open the two sugar cane trucks blockading the bridge were burned or captured by the constitutionalist forces, AFTER they crossed the bridge.
And BTW they had more than a .50 caliber available to them, they had a few small cannons, bazookas, and hundreds of "burn on impact" Molotov cocktails. (the ones that don't have to be lit on fire).
After the US paratroops and marine landings the Ozama fortress was under siege by rebel commandos and some regular military, then a small
Swedish made L-60 light tank joined the battle and started shooting at the fortress walls and doors to get at the police men barricaded there. As you know the Ozama fortress south wall leads to the river and ocean. Some desperate police men in those days known as the "cascos blancos" because they wore a white helmet jumped the Ozama fortress
high wall and ran to the river were they swam to the other side were safety was. The US paratroopers needed
a high ground observation post and the tallest building around there, was the
Molinos Dominicanos" tall wheat mill building where they climbed on top of the roof and set a sniper team manned by snipers armed with high power scoped rifles and a 106mm recoilless rifle with a single shot .50 caliber spotter on top of it.
US army paratroop snipers took leisurely pot shots at civilians or commandos in the colonial zone, killing famous French soldier of
fortune Andres Riviere and many others. Andres was a veteran of the French foreign legion, Algiers and Diem Bin Phu and joined the revolution while staying as a tourist in a colonial zone hotel and asked Coronel Montes Arache to let him fight
on the constitutionalist side. (As related to me by Coronel Montes Arache).
The US sniper on top of "molinos" was a dead shot and you could not walk leisurely along the colonial zone without risk of being targeted by him specially if you were carrying a weapon of any kind. He probably is still alive since this was only 44 years ago and he could document and tell us his side of the story.
The 82 ND airborne paratroopers crossing the Duarte bridge shot and sank with 106 mm recoiless rifle mounted on a jeep, a big civilian cargo ship that was cruising the Ozama river trying to get to sea.
Some desperate snipers even shot at the US forces with .22's and air rifles wishing afterwards that
they had not done so because of the disproportionate response from helicopters and cannons.
Roger and out.
We have all learned something today.
Perception ,in the language you can understand "SHUT THE HELL UP"
BTW there was in the April 1965 revolution a 100% Haitian commando unit fighting alongside the
Dominican patriots, and they were very brave and fearless taking many casualties.