Written by: juanb, 20 Feb 2009 10:17 AM
From: Dominican Republic
And we care, because?
From: United States
Well it goes to show the bigmouths on the board that more people see these comments than we might think.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
this must be the reason they are cutting the controversial Haitian Articles and not allowing posting
From: United States, Washington
Why is this even an ISSUE? He is an artist in and of itself, and should be valued as an artist and a Human Being. Furthermore, from the picture, he looks as Dominican as the vast majority of the country. Don't know why this is even an issue. Just goes to show how RIDICULOUS, how truly petty, these issues of xenophobia can be. Well, their petty to us who don't suffer the daily persecutions and insults, but I'm sure the people being discriminated, shafted, and victimized don't see it as Petty.
From: United States
baldo it isn't petty at all to those receiving the xenophobia, and in a sense neither is it petty to those handing it out. In their day-to-day lives they clearly feel a threat around the issue. Those of us with a different mentality have to respect their politics on the issue ... however what is disappointing is that when they come to a place of public discourse some can't temper their paranoia at all and virulently attack anyone whose politics on the topic triggers their sensitivity. Among known Dominicans and diasporans Mr. Paulino is not alone, in these pages I've seen similar invective unleashed against Junot Diaz, Silvio Torres-Saillant, and others...
Written by: Escott, 20 Feb 2009 11:41 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Zenophobia is the fear of man. Wolves have that phobia.
What we have here his Haitiaphobia which is fear of Haitians and it is so deep in the system you will need something nuclear to get it out.
Written by: jacirez 
, 20 Feb 2009 12:05 PM
From: Iran, Zähedän
"...Quisqueya es una isla e inivicible..."
We are one people. It's high time we realize that and save ourselves some trouble...
From: United States, New York City
I checked out the thread Paulino was refferring to. It only had like five posts which even in the broadest interpretation of the word could hardly be called a debate and the reference to Duvalier was an attempt at a joke. There was nothing offensive posted and the mistake was clearly the fault of the idiot who wrote the article. This guy is trying to milk DT for some more air time and nothing more. Que pariguayo.
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....lauds-Dominican-singer-songwriterWritten by: jacirez , 20 Feb 2009 1:19 PM
From: Iran, Zähedän
cibaeño75,
Hay Compadre, utè tiene razòn
From: United States
That is a bunch of crap, Where is the uproar? I never saw but a few minor comments about how bad was the article written by Owen West. If there was an uproar I need some one to point it out to me, because I did not see it. Must be a publicity stunt.
Written by: jacirez , 20 Feb 2009 3:40 PM
From: Iran, Zähedän
guillermone,
Winston Paulino is trying to get some milleage out of this...Don't blame the playr...blame the game...
From: United States
Winston Paulino should be considered for a Nobel peace prize. It's unfortunate that while Winston is promoting peace, others are stooping so low and indulging in hatred and petty non-sense low-life childish stupidity.
Haitian or Dominican? So what? The outside world usually refers to the entire island as Haiti. Maybe it's for historical reason.
Winston Paulino's song transcends all matter of race and nationality. The man is way ahead of the mind of most Dominicans living in DR. This song will put him on the international stage and will do a lot of good for DR image. Winston Paulino refuses to entrap himself into a narrow and shortsighted thinking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z2biUeHJmkFrom: United States
Citizen of the World-Well I guess we all know who will be buying his records. You sound like a real FAN-atical. Try to see is Wilson will hook you up as one of his promoters. You might end up making a few bucks instead of writing for free on DT. I nominante Citizen forPresident of Winston Paulino's Fan Club. Do I hear anyone who wants to second the nomination.
Written by: Jander, 20 Feb 2009 9:46 PM
From: Dominican Republic
who is he ?
Written by: etiennc, 20 Feb 2009 9:58 PM
From: United States
May I tell you a joke ?
A Dominican and a Haitian were arguing over the race issue and an old man who has been listening to them said this : You know what , when they throw both of you in hell you both are going too look black and CRISPY. Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Ha !!
Black and crispy , You get te joke ?
Guillermone . you get it ? black and crispy !
Written by: etiennc, 20 Feb 2009 9:59 PM
From: United States
Vanity , vanity, it is all vanity !
From: Dominican Republic
1-Two million ilegals (22 % of the population) is definitely NOT PHOBIA (you fool)!
2-The whole island is known as Hispanolia! Only called Haiti (1822-1843)! And called STODGO from 1492 to 1795!
3-Not one transcend our nationality with the purpose of destroying our identity!
From: United States
Cool it my babies!
From: United States, Washington
It's amazing, many of the people attacking you - whether you're right or wrong - are seemingly based in the U.S. When there is an attack on migrants in the U.S., isn't there general outcry from the entire migrant community?
Moreover, these same people who hold fast that identities in the DR are so rigid, many of these people are also ones who long to become "American" and taut that their children, born in the U.S., are American. Why is it then, given that they are open to an evolving identity in the U.S., they are so closed and rigid when it comes to Identities in the DR?
This may come as a shock to many, but there is no SINGLE Dominican Identity. THe DR is a multicultural society, and we should be tolerant of cultures that don't fit what WE may consider the dominant culture. So what if some people prefer to drink Whiskey instead of Rum? or Guinness instead of Presidente? So what if some prefer English or French music, to Merengue/Bachata? So WHAT? are these not people?
From: United States, Washington
Many people's attitude about "non-dominicans" - and by non-Dominicans I mean that these people mean Haitians - resembles the Spanish inquisition, where anyone who did not fit a strict definition of what a few Religious Oligarchs defined as "Catholic" were subjected to torture, imprisonment and DEATH. There are a few other oppressive regimes/movements that these anachronistic viewpoints can be compared to, but I'll let you extrapulate for yourselves.
What I don't understand, WHY ALL THE HATE? In my town there are many Haitians, and they are a part of the community. Sure they have their own creole church, and tend to hangout by themselves, but that doesn't take away from the Spanish-speaking churches or from me hanging out w/ the guys to talk about Politics! This "clan" mentality, where whoever is not member of our clan is seen as Sub-Human, is the wrong attitude. We need to promote Human-Rights and justice for All- women, non-whites, migrants, elderly, LGBT, and disabled...
From: United States
baldoria23-You don't understand and are out of touch with the Haitian reality. We are not talking about hate and about being intolerant. The who people post hate type comments and insults on on this medium are not really being serious. They are just doing it to see people's reaction. and because they get a kick out of doing it. Most if not all, would never do that in real life to real people. The problem is not with the Haitians people and it is not really a racial issue. What we are talking about is undocumented aliens in the DR. We have people invading a poor country that are causing a lot of damage to the poor working class Dominicans and campesinos. And it just so happens that the majority of the illegal invaders are Haitians. There is nothing wrong with Haitians that want to enter and live in the DR but must follow immigration rules. The chaotic conditions that exist today can not but only have detrimental effects to any country who suffers from this very unique kind of situation.
From: United States, Washington
Guille, here's the thing, I wish you were right that it were only these posters, but there is a not-so-latent discriminatory sentiment in the DR that discriminates against a slew of people, but lets just talk about xenophobia against Haitians, at this point. Have you not heard of haitians communities being attacked for the actions of one or two migrants? Have you not heard of mass deportations, regardless of how it affects families - mothers being separated from young children? If you haven't these things are happening.
The DR is a poor country, we are a people who suffer under the incredible plight of a political class that cares about itself, and an oligarchy that lives to extort as much as it can, but that does not give us the right to discriminate against these poor people who simply are trying to survive. THESE ARE PEOPLE, and should be treated with all the dignity that we would want to get treated with.
If we want to stem the tide of migrants, lets help develop Haiti...
From: United States, Washington
I know it sounds crazy, but obviously the mass deportations are not working, so maybe we should try something else that would get us POSITIVE recognition in the world, instead of being accused of human rights violations and extreme xenophobia.
It's just a thought... But by trying something new, we may get different results. All our policies should be guided by the simple NORMATIVE guidelines that the people we're treating are PEOPLE w/ rights afforded to them by our commitment to Human Rights and Liberalism.
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Feb 2009 4:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes it does sounds crazy, specially with the current economic regime of the country. How'd you propose the country to absorb 10 million of additional poor to its army of the unemployed, baldy? Do you want a reenactment of the haitian revolution to happen here? If the DR is a powder keg with its current problems, imagine what it would be if it took upon its shoulders the ones from others.
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Feb 2009 4:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The point is, without outside financial aid (and I mean Marshall Plan sized financial aid), the only thing that the DR would be doing if it adopted your approach, baldy, is to worsen its already shaky socioeconomic conditions. As the pueblo would say "No hay cama pa' tanta gente".
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Laut,
I am with you on this one.
Even mighty US would have trouble absorbing so many poor and unskilled people. Haitians need to stand up for their own country, settle differences and work toward rebuilding and gererating prosperity. Reforestation should be a priority to preclude recurrence of natural catastrophies; also, to create jobs.
All Domincans should have vested interest in seeing a strong and prosperous neighbor to the west, both for stability and all-important commerce.
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Feb 2009 4:44 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Heck, from what some foreign friends have told me, glomar, PR is starting to see mixed dominican/haitian yolas on its coastline, so that should be an indicator that islandwide socioeconomic conditions are actually worsening.
From: United States, Washington
Lautero, I thought better of you. Where did I suggest that we absorbed 10 million people? why is the suggestion that we aid our nieghbor so negative, but breaking up families and treating people w/ no dignity so readily acceptable. Lautero, please don't go the road as the reactionaries.
We can take the $$ we spend on deportations, and help develop the border area around Haiti - that's one way we can help.
From: United States, Washington
If haiti develops, then less migrants will come to the DR. It's that simple.
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Feb 2009 5:07 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes, but that help can't be done at the risk of endagering our own (fragile) socioeconomic well-being, baldy, nothing more, nothing less. Besides, you should know better than falling on the same trap that liberals and conservatives both do, and that is of seeing reality only in terms of black and white. Just as conservatives don't hold all the truth about things, liberals have their own tails for us to step upon. In fact, I consider liberals as capable of carrying sinister agendas in tow as their conservative counterparts. Bottom line is that we should condition our help to the international community providing the funding for the carrying out of the necessary projects on the other side of the fence and also demand for our haitian counterparts the making of institutional advances of their own (I know, we aren't the last Coca Cola in the desert on this score, but hey, compared to their politicos, ours are boy scouts in comparison). ;-)
From: United States
baldoria23,
I really think you have sound judgment and great common sense to become the president of Dominican Republic for the better. Your view points are realistic and rational.
You should write a book. Maybe you will enlighten millions of distorted minds in this world.
Keep up the good work my friend!
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
Baldy getting his balls massaged to run for political office....Please do not encourage him or before you know it he will be driving around in a new Range Rover.....Lautaro talk to Baldy make him come to his senses
Written by: etiennc, 22 Feb 2009 1:08 AM
From: United States
I had made a promise to myself that I would never get involved in a discussion a dialogue.or a debate about Haitians .There is a reality opposing the Haitian elite those well educated having the amoney and have access to the polical corridors,This reality may surpsrise you.Let me exptrapolate for amoment then I will lead you to my reflexions.
Animals have a way to deal with food shortage, the mamamals males become temporayly sterile or have a lowerr sperm caount,the females stop ejecting the odor that signals to the males that they are in heat,
The alpha male of a pack will kill all youngest born since they can not feed them,
Birds also lay less eggs , the female bird will kill one of her new borns or the stronger new born will drive the weakest out of the nest .
The Haitian elite complains why the poor, the less educated,give birth to so may children when they know they will not be able to care for them,
The elite has already given up.
Written by: etiennc, 22 Feb 2009 1:21 AM
From: United States
When we say that Haitian should do this or do that , Tthis is just wishful thinking.
A method of contraception shoul be implemented so Haitian poor woman could stop having so many children.
They do not get pregnant because they ffall in love because they are too hungry to worry about love. the do not get pregnant because they enjoy sex, they are too hungry to enjoy sex. they get pregnant because of a lack of sexual education and disciplne,
They do not care about the consequences of bringing 4 5 6 children
How can a woman who is poor and is struggling everyday to get just a mere pittance has the audacity to lay down with a man and get pregnant.
All poor Haitian woman when being interviewed usually will tell you that she has 4 5 6 7 children to feed.
What was she thinking about when she could not feed her first child she opens her legs to get pregnant 4 5 6 7 times.
Haitian women need to keep their legs closed and Haitian men need to keep it inside their pants
From: United States
Haitians have gone from 500,000 slaves, who fought victoriously for their independence to 9 million Haitians today. In the bible God says "GO AND MULTIPLY". In term of reproduction and according to to God's words, the Haitians are a succes story. Their next step is to use their brain like they did in 1791 and 1804 to continue to multiply as well as cultivate their land for food because the U.S. is dumping subsidized food on DR, Haiti and other countries. The U.S. doesn't let developing countries produce their own food anymore. This is outrageous!
A Jewish couple usually averages 6 to 9 children in a family. But Israel receices about $10 billion economic assistance from the U.S. every year.
Good job, Haitians! Mutiply, but cultivate your land to produce food.
From: United States
"In term of reproduction and according to to God's words, the Haitians are a succes story"
The man sees the sun behind every dark cloud. Look here Mr Clergyman Reverand Preacher Citizen_of_the_World you are totally out of whack. You interweave truth with delusional thinking to the point that is makes you look dangerous!!!
My suggestion, if you want to help the Haitians, go to Guyana and start to pick-up where Rev Jim Jones left off. Take about a half-millian Haitians with you to multipy until they reach 9 million, if for any reason there is scarcity of resources and a over supply of people, you can always resort to the kool aide method for population control.
By the way please don't tell them to get into the wood charcoal making business for income, they might end up turning Guyana into another Haiti and the rest of South America into a coalition of Haitian Republics. Instead, better yet, maybe they can start fertilization clinics: "How to make babies on an empty stomach.
From: United States
Anyway, all kidding aside Citizen of the World- You do make some very valid points. But you lose a lot of credibililty when you make some far-fetch and outlandish statements to the point that it makes you look totally rediculous. My suggestion to you is please think first before you write and by the way, tell your Haitian comrades, that they can start by planting some trees.
It's just that simple !!!
Written by: etiennc, 22 Feb 2009 6:06 PM
From: United States
Cirtizen of the world yes God said to His people to multiply but in the book of Exode he told the Jewish people ( His preferred people) that he would give them abundance if the follow His laws.
The word is ABUNDANCE !
Does the jewish people follow God's laws. you are damn right they do and look at all the abundance bestwed upon them
They are all doctors, lawyers, businessmen and polically powerful.
Do haitians follow Gods laws ?
They keep multipliying and expect someone else to care for their children be they the Americans, the Dominicans and what have.you.
They should follow the example of the animals when food are scarce they stop multiplying .
You say GOOD WORK keep multiplying, nowyou see whay the Domonicans, the Americans, the Bahamaians are so upset with Haitians.
Like the Haitian proverb se pa grenn ou ou di peze (These are not your balls you say squeeze)
From: United States
etiennc-GREAT response !!!! In summary you basically said, "Ayudate Que Dios Te Ayudará".
From: United States, Washington
Hey guys, sorry the weekend was too beautiful to stay in-doors. spent as much time outside with our baby...
Anyhow, the day you see me driving around in a luxury SUV is the day I've sold out! I may get a jeepeta, but it would only be to go up to our fincas, not to drive around in the city so people can look at me.
Lautero, if we wait for the international community to act, or condition our own action on theirs, then nothing will ever happen. We need to lead the way. We need to send our own version of the Peace Corps into Haiti to help developed Small enterprises, to plant trees, to improve farming and irrigation, etc. If we Haiti develops, less migrants, more economic opportunity for the DR, and the LIVES of people improve, which is the REAL goal. It's not the lack of resources that stops this, but rather the lack of political will.
Citizen, a book is coming, but it's about political clientelism in the DR, its effects, and ways to address it w/i the Dominican context.
From: United States, Washington
The point is - we have resources to address our own problems and help Haiti BEGIN to solve SOME of theirs. We can't take on the entire task of rebuiding Haiti, that's too much for us, but if we start, then perhaps we can become a porta-voz for regional cooperation and help attract development aid to Haiti. Development Agencies LOVE effective partners in the "south" This can be a way of helping our professionals get jobs w/ organizations such as the UNDP, PlanInternational, USAID, etc.
If it will help you get on board, think of it this way - we're helping haiti, so that WE can benefit from the political goodwill, from reduced migration, and from the jobs we'll get from the development agencies. Oh and yes, WE'LL BE HELPING PEOPLE!
From: United States
The Jewish people are the most miserable people in the world. Wherever they go, they are persecuted. Hitler committed genocide on them. The Arabs don't want them in the middle East. The Jews are constantly watching over their shoulders. In the U.S. they are still being discriminated against by Anglos. The Jews are too attached to materialistic things and that's against the bible. If the Jews had recognized Jesus as the last prohet, they would have not faced so much persecution.
I have Jewish friends. They are good people. One of my Jewish friend is a convert from Judahism to Islam. Don't believe that any group of people was chosen by God. That's BULL.
All human beings are children of God and equal in the eyes of God.
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Feb 2009 7:52 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
baldoria said: "Citizen, a book is coming, but it's about political clientelism in the DR, its effects, and ways to address it w/i the Dominican context."
I'll be the first on cue to buy it, I assure you. At the risk of appearing gossipy, I can't help myself but ask you the following: will it have the sordid details about some of our politicos' "underground" dealings, or as the popular saying goes, about the "bedchamber agreements (acuerdos de aposento)?
From: United States, Washington
I don't know how secret the things I relate are, since clientelism is SOOOOOO "in-your-face." But hopefully it's a first step into getting people to realize how truly wicked clientelism is.
Many people see these clientelist networks as "god-sent" b/c it allows them to access resources that couldn't, otherwise; but the truth of the matter is, that those resources- healthcare, education, better roads, employment training & help should be public services NOT conditioned on political behavior. anyhow, I'll stop here, b/c this is all I think about during the day. DT is my escape from clientelism!
From: United States
The Jewish people as a nation were the chosen people of God and that is no bull. But as individuals they still can be the chosen ones. The argument that they fell out of Grace is a whole other issue. It is also a bunch of crap that the reason why the Jews were persecuted is because they did not accept Jesus Christ as their savior and that can also be easily disputed.
From: United States, Washington
guille, if Dominicans would have written the bible, who do you think would have been the chosen people?
Just another example of how the vistors write partial view of history to make themselves look "special."
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Feb 2009 1:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Yes baldy, but I don't think that the alternative means adoptingg the point of view of the others as the valid one, specially when this other POV demeans the group that one belongs to portraying it as "collective bovarists", "wannabes" and "sell-outs", but I'll leave it at that, cuz' I don't want to open up the traditional can of worms that happens every time when the two POV's that have characterized the storytelling of Hispaniola come into the stage.
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Feb 2009 1:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I don't know the reason for this, but it seems that some liberal intellectuals have successfully convinced many people on the the public to adhere to the politically correct myth that the "underdogs" (as in, any x-group suffering from racism at the hands of another group that is relatively well-off) cannot be "racist" because they have no "power", when nothing could be farther from the truth.
From: United States, Washington
My whole point is that we need to look at many sides of an issue, before we can say - This is the right one. History is partial, and even visial evidence can be biased.
reminds me of the Rodney King trial. I'm sure you remember the video of the police beating, mercilessly, Rodney King. Well, when interviewed afterwards, some jurors saw the Police defending themselves against a potentially dangerous criminal. How they were able to see that, I don't know (well I do, but won't get into that). but you have to understand that people see things in different ways.
That's why we need a clear, human rights-based approach to dealing with social issues: poverty, public works, political participation, migration issues... And bringin in many stakeholders to help analyze policy decisions.
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Feb 2009 2:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
As a side note, is the political book that you say will come out a part of your doctoral thesis, by chance?
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 2:12 PM
From: United States
Citizen of the world, some of us we have preconceived ideas about certain groups because of all the layers of misiformations that hace molded our thinking.
Some of us have learned since childhood to mistrust the Jewish people to a point that we have even recounced the first books of the Bible that is the Torah, what we call the ancient testament.
This explains why Haitians don not follow the example of the older spiritual brtothers the Jews.
Just for refreshing the memory the Chistian religiin originally took bith from the Jewish religion and a long time was called JUDEO CHRISTIAN
The jewish peolpe nevre stop forgetting their roots and thir slave history. They have learned that religion is not only worshipping but this is a was of life.
From: United States, Washington
it's my dissertation. It'll probably take a year or two for it to actually hit the stands, but I should be able to send you a Pdf of the final dissertation product this summer.
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 2:21 PM
From: United States
They have leaned that in order to survive they must stick together.
Of aspect of the Jewish thing that have helped survive all calamities is the way the treat each individual woman.
They believe that one woman may give birth to a messaiah that will gather all of them and return them to the land of their father.
haitians need to learn how to pray which has never been tought to them.
If haitians as they claim are Chrstians folloer of Jesus himself a Jew, well they need to know how to pray like the Jews do and like Jesus himself did.
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 2:23 PM
From: United States
When you know hoe to pray you enter a convenant with God and you learn to love and protect your bothers and sisters.
The way that Haitians have been trating each other for the past 200 years betray a people who do not know how to pray.
Of you can not pray you can not attract Abundance
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 2:25 PM
From: United States
The Jews pray all the time , Haitians seldom pray only on weekends they drop by a chuch just to gossip and check which dresses and whch hats their friends and neighbours are wearing.
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 2:29 PM
From: United States
Plase do not say anything about the Jews , they are Haitians elder spiritual brothers, they gave Haitians the old testament.Haitians must now study these books of laws : Genesis, Exorde, Deuteronome,Leviticus,Numbers what we call the Pentateuque or the Torah if they ever want to win over the calamaties that have have made their lives so miserable.
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 4:56 PM
From: United States
Plase READ INSTAED Genesis, Exodus,Deuteronomy,Leviticus,Numbers.
From: United States
Baldora-"That's why we need a clear, human rights-based approach to dealing with social issues: poverty, public works, political participation, migration issues... And bringin in many stakeholders to help analyze policy decisions."
The Haitian dilema is an extremely serious problem, I agree. The question is how can we solve it? First and foremost it must be confronted, but before that we need the will to do it. And to confront it, you have to know what is there. In order to stop it, you have to know what to change. In order to do something about it, you have to know what is in the past that created it. In order to turn it around, you have to know what continues to feed it. The solution requires a lot of answers and it is definately not an easy task., but there is hope.
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 9:37 PM
From: United States
Guillermone you are so right, this is why I have approached the problem fom a spiritual point of view.
Since citizen of the world had wrongly trumpeted that Haitians have follow God s laws to multiply I had to disagree with him(her)
That the idea of myltiplying should be propotional with the availablity of food.
The Bible is a very old book and its cultural aspect and metaphoric nuances of the chapters and verses should be understood
For example many people support the "philosophy of turning the other cheek "meaning to get slapped again,This could no be farther from the truth since Jesus himself was a revolutionnary and would never preach cowardice and resignation.
Turning the other cheek is a defense mechanism in order not to get slapped a secondr time.The Jews living in Jerusalem in the 1st century though of the left hand as the dirty hand . They used to insult, humiliate and beat their servants.
One can see the fatalism that has been preached to Haitians
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 9:45 PM
From: United States
for so many years.
One can understand citizen of the world's support for Haitians to keep multiplying.
One can also sense that he ( she) is ridiculing the Haitians.
Who cares they lay children like a queen ant layseggs ?
let the Dominican , the americans, the Bahamaians worry about feeding them.
The Haitian elite has tried to exterminate the surplus of children through benigh neglect when nature is to slow to act.
Written by: etiennc, 23 Feb 2009 9:48 PM
From: United States
Read " further from the truth" line 8
From: United States
etiennc, you praise the bible sometimes and other times you refer to it as an old instrument. Only when it's convenient, right?
From: United States
U-know etiennc-this guy Citizen of the World-his heart is in the right place, but he just takes biblical principles and kind of twisted it around to justify some cockymany idea he came up with. But come on man !!! The glorification of impoverished people getting pregnant without knowing how to feed and provide even most basic of necessities for their offsprings is reckless, totally preposterous, irresponsible and it just plain lacks common sense. It is ironic how most of those who are better able and have the conditions to bring forth, give birth and properly raise children choose instead to be childless or have smaller then average families. But yet are being replaced instead by children coming from a clearly dysfunctional environment, born and raised in economic misery, most likely in single-parent households whose prospects for a better future are apparently bleak. There is no question, the unpleasant repercussions will come back to haunt us and give no reason to feel optimistic
Written by: etiennc, 24 Feb 2009 12:55 AM
From: United States
Citizen of the World ,maybe I failed to express myself correctly. what should have transpires from all the biblical acrobatics I have performed was to prove that Haitian need spent more time getting familiar with the legal books of the Bible" the Torah" to get instructions on how to follow Gods laws ot they could follow the example of their older spiritual brorthes theJews to obtain Abundance : education.business,polical power.
But instead for some osbcure reason they have concentrated on the historical books(John Jame,Luke ect ,the poetic books:Psalms,the prophetic books: revelation
Chistianiyy is Haitians adoptive religion hence they should follow the example of their older spiritual brothers to get abundance
They should refrain from Voodoo that has caused mistrust and hate among them.
Citizen of the wold you have invited the Jews and the Bible in this debate I would hope that you would get more involved instead of being peripheral and playing a peek a boo game
From: United States
The Jews are welcome to this debate, but they are predictable. They are stuck in the old testament only. Their views are kind of limited. Judaism is the only religion that never grows. Why is that? Why is Judaism so secretive? Can you answer this question? The Jews suffered a lot. They were subjected to the same plight of black people: slavery and genocide.
I give the Jews a lot of credit for advancing themseleves through high education.
Judaism does not teach compassion. It's "an eye for an eye". Remember Ghandi said "An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind".
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Feb 2009 8:38 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'll have to give it to them, their planning and scheming have been flawless: first, take the control of the media and finances of the two imperial centers of the planet (the US and the UK), and then, with the armed and financial support of those two, take back their ancestral hands pistol in hand, with nobody being the wiser. Plus, their control of the media affords them an unlimited "license for aggression", cuz' any attack on their policies can be disguised by the "we're only defending ourselves", "remember the Holocaust" and "you're an anti-semite" labels. Never the ascension of a world power have been so fast on recorded history, that's for sure. Not even Macchiavelli could have pulled off anything better (even though the jewish patriarch Moses is among his "ideal princes").
Written by: etiennc, 24 Feb 2009 10:37 AM
From: United States
There you go proving my point.
If Haitians want to adopt the Judeo Chistian faith the need to do what their older spisitual brothers do.
If you are an adoptive schild you follow what the natural child do.
The essence of religion is and has always beeb :secret sign secret decoration,secret symbols iniations ,swearings., rituals,laws about dieting, laws about preparing your food, laws about evry activities.
How many religion in the world you know that are open. The may have certain ritiuals that are open but in order to keep the religiopn strong certain activities must be remaini secret.
As I have said before Religion is is not only ( religare-worshippng) It is a way of life it is the way you treat your neighbour ans so forth.
Religion is not something you practice when you feel like, when you have a new dress or a new suit to show off in a worshipping place.
.
Written by: etiennc, 24 Feb 2009 10:43 AM
From: United States
Sure the Jews are still stuck to the old testament (the Torah) the legal books, the Pentateuque just to make sure tey understand fully andcompletly God 's laws so they can practice then so to obtain "Abundance"
Is n't ironic that the Haitians wha have received the Bible some 200 years ago and have no natural historical bond with the book feel that they should bypass God/s laws (The 5 first book , the Torah) and dwelve in the new testament.
The new testament is about Jesus Christ.
No wonder Haitians are so confused that they are forced to practice Voodoo as a supporting religion.
As they say 85 % of Haitians are Christians and 100% are voudouisants ( Voodoo worshippers)
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 11:53 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
I do not agree that is the DR responsibility to better the situation in Haiti,
by sending Dominicans on a nation building quest there.
The Haitians must do that on their own, they can not and must not be led by the hand by us.
On the other hand if the Haitian government will stop the blame game and will sincerely make a joint effort to ask for aid to start solving the
many problems that affect us both. Then I am all for it.
Two countries united in their request to the world community could start the funds that need to be invested to alleviate the hunger and suffering in both countries.
In Dominican Republic there is much arable land that is not being farmed at present because of lack of agricultural incentives and investment. It is estimated that with an investment of one billion dollars the DR could become a net exporter of food products.
This come be done with three things:
1. International agricultural investments managed by the donor countries not by DR or Haiti
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 12:04 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
2. Funds to be placed in strategically located farms supervised by the DR and Haitian departments of agriculture, and manpower could be both Haitian and Dominican.
3. Proceeds from these international loans or donations would be used to the betterment of living conditions of both Haitians as well as Dominicans.
Does this sound like a crazy off the wall idea?
So instead of arguing between us to no avail, we could be finding solutions to the problem that revolves around a basic principle:
Feed the hungry, shelter the poor, protect the innocent, and use the land that is not being used at present for the betterment of both countries.
We can deal with the issues of illegal immigration, documentation of illegals, resettlement or deportation, birth control, education and so forth as we go along.
Meanwhile all the disenfranchised Haitians and Dominicans will have
a common purpose revolving around hard work and producing food staples for the whole island as well as for export.
From: United States
generoso it sounds like thinking in the right direction, and you are not alone on the board in seeing a future in agriculture. I wish I knew more about it so I could give you input, but my familiarity on it is just from books about land reform. That reminds me how do you envision these lands being divvied up? Temporary land grants that can become ownership based on being productive? Small med or large grants?
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 12:27 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Manhattanite
We can use the Israeli experience building farming cooperatives or Kibbutz as a model.
In Dominican the word that is used is "combite" and it probably comes from the French or Creole.
"Conbite" even used today on weekends all the farmers get together one day and work to build something in unison to the benefit of a single farmer in need.
Dominican farm land is so fertile and productive and it is a shame not to use all our resources to grow food wisely. Haitian strong arms and labor would have a place in this joint venture.
Let's have our own version of a mix between a "combite" and a "kibbutz".
The ownership question is a sticky subject and would need legislation, I would suggest for expediency purposes to rent the vacant land on a long term basis from their owners, never confiscate. The details such as in your question can be mutually worked out and negotiated.
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Feb 2009 12:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Manhattanite asked: "Small med or large grants?"
Judging by the study of both the haitian and dominican experience, I can say that the best bet would be making them a medium grant, because a small grant would only incentive the farmers to only plant for subsistence, as the haitian example have shown, which would only be detrimental to the environment. On the part of the large grants, it would only lead to a large concentration of the land in a few hands, as it have been the dominican experience for a large part of its independent existence (in fact, there are still some large latifundia out there, cuz' Balaguer could not nationalize everything on his failed attempt at land reform). As the general said, the ideal would be a medium grant regime organized on the model of the israeli kibbutz, the best agrarian model that I have encountered on my studies so far.
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 12:39 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Lautaro
It is remarkable how we are tuned to the same frequency posting almost identical solutions simultaneously.
Medium grants are the only way to go.
We must never use the term "land reform" as it evokes past failures and creates an adverse political
climate.
From: United States, Washington
Ciao Generoso, good brainstorming. Maybe I'm not explaining myself, I'm sure it's my fault, but I never suggested the DR lead a Nation-building process, just help Haiti develop some key industries and infrastructure. This would be akin to what many int'l donors are doing even in the DR. Are Oxfam, UNDP, or CARE leading a nation building process in the DR? hardly, just helping us address some key development goals.
Whatever we do, including your ideas, it's key that we help development on the Haitian side to help Haitians improve their lives w/o risking being the victims of Human Rights violations as migrants in the DR. Moreover, the forward & backward linkages that some key industries can have on the Haitian economy can spur a positive cycle of development. The DR, again, can play a key role as a catalyst to spur these efforts.
So not nation building, but good neighbor policy that will benefit All and facilitate international funds coming to the island.
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 12:45 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE81CLJJd7cWe are sitting in a powder keg situation or like the famous Frenchman that Lautaro quoted once talking about the slaves in Haiti before the uprising of 1791.
" A volcano ready to erupt"
From: United States, Washington
Come to think of it, just think how the donor community would react to a DR leading development in Haiti? I assure you that the Donor community would flock to such "South-South" cooperation. This is what many of them are looking for!!! THe monies that come in will HELP not only haiti, but also the DR, b/c many of the experts hired for this will be Dominicans!
This is a win-win situation. I can't see the downside. But that's the role of discussing these issues, maybe you see something I don't.
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 12:54 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
Realistically your ideas are idealistic but not practical at present. We have to look for solutions that can be applied IMMEDIATELY.
Haiti is a basket case and the security situation is terrible.
To better describe Haiti is renaming it "Dark Hole" where everything that goes in there disappears
and is sucked inside for eternity.
As a Dominican I care about Haiti, but I care about Dominican Republic first.
I will never venture to remotely think I can unravel the "gordian knot" that is the Haitian mess and I
will never even attempt to do.
We must make our country strong and at the same time help solve the illegal Haitian exodus and immigration to DR that is corroding our nation.
We must focus on solutions to our problems first with a clear intention to help the Haitians return to their homeland, so they can do the unraveling and nation building on their own.
Do not have any fantasies other than that.
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Feb 2009 12:59 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The key would be establishing the framework in which that help could be put forth, baldy, cuz' both haitian and dominican politicos can't be trusted with that, the temptation of having that money within reach would be too big for their kleptocratic impulses.
From: United States
etiennc, the precept of all religions that worship God is and should remain "Treat your fellow human being as you would like to be treated". Anything contrary to that is fake, phony, false and misleading. Take a look at the way the Jews are treating the Palestinians. Is that godly?
Religion is used as a form of opium to the mass. Remember who said that?
From: United States, Washington
Idealistic b/c it hasn't been tried... It hasn't been tried b/c of special interests, b/c people are not interested in helping develop Haiti, but maintain the status quo. We have a chance to be one of the few Southern Countries to help another SOuthern country. I can't think of any, maybe south africa with Lesotho & Mozambique.
You see Generoso, I care most about helping people regardless of their country, and if we continue to think in these provincial mentality, no offense intended, then little will actually happen to solve the problem. Put people and human rights first should be our motto.
The Security issue is a large concern, but even this could be worked out w/ the help of the international community. We just need to dare to try something new!
From: United States, Washington
Lautero, there are a few organizations based in the DR that are already helping Haitian development, i.e., Batey Relief Alliance. But the scale of their efforts is small b/c of a number of reasons. CSOs should be the key component, b/c you're right that we can't trust the politicians on either side to do anything, nd they may actually be counter productive. But the Dominican Gov and Local municipalities in Haiti will be needed and included in the design and implementation and maintenance of these projects.
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Feb 2009 1:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I think that a good area to start would be on tourism, cuz' Haiti a larger touristic coastline than us, and until this day it has remained unexploited (specially the Jacmel-Ile a Vaches area). Although I'd recommend leaving behind the AI model, which does nothing to expand the benefits of tourism to the neighboring communities.
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 1:29 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
Your precepts are idealistic, mine are not "provincial mentality" but realistic, with a strong
dose of practicality with both feet on the ground.
Put your own house in order first, before you can ever help your neighbor. Your rationalizations sound good and are universally accepted such as:
"Put people and human rights first should be our motto" Nothing wrong with that thought and most will agree. But to implement a workable plan to help solve the Haitian problem can not start in Haiti. You are missing the point, the solution does not lie with Dominicans going to Haiti and leading by example. This is not realistic and dwells in illusion and fantasy. Haitians even rejected aid recently that was sent to them from a Dominican charity organization out of national pride.
Haitians and Dominicans basically tolerate each other but they distrust and have long
unsolved blood feuds between each other, remember that. You can not solve that by wishful thinking in one day.
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 1:36 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Con't
Since you are in Cabrera I suggest you drive to the "Polo magnetico" and talk to my buddy the midget who guards the area (if he is still alive) and ask him to recite a poem he knows by
heart about Dominicans and "Quisqueya la bella".
We can continue later, after the magnetic vibrations of the area will have implanted in your brain some common sense.
From: United States, Washington
I need common sense :-)
But any Development effort not based in Haiti will only attract more migrants, its as simple as that. We need to improve situation on the haitian side, and that is the key difference in what I'm proposing. It's not leading by example, it's actually helping design, train, execute, and maintain projects. Essentially, what the PlanInternational and the other dvelopment organizations come to do in the DR, we can try to do with Haiti. Have you ever worked with a dev. organization? Do you know how they work? If they're doing it right, they have a participatory approach at defining, designing, and implementing the projects. It's not that they go and do things, but rather they work with the community to address the development need. They provide the technical knowledge and the community provides the local knowledge. Take a look at how the PeaceCorps works... That's all I'm proposing. and even then, that will only address one factor in Haitian Migration to the DR.
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 2:09 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
baldoria23
I basically agree with you in all your fine ideas but this one:
"We need to improve situation on the haitian side" and literally I agree with it also.
But we are Dominicans first, correct? We have many challenges in our own country that we must solve. Correct?
It is a given that if the economic situation in Haiti improves, the Haitian illegals will return home. Are you with me so far?
But we have to improve our nation first, before we can start trying to help others.
We just have too many unfulfilled needs that are not being addressed by the DR government. The same government that chose to build a metro instead of solving all the other more urgent priorities that are awaiting solutions.
Let's not think with a "metro" mentality and focus on solving our own problems first,
before we can start fantasizing about being so magnanimous to be able to help our neighbors in need at the same time.
From: United States
Just to add to the brainstorming, I agree with Laut that med plots would be the ideal. Again I have NO agri experience, just have read on the topic of DR land reform.
http://osirisoptic.blogspot.com/2009/02/el-jefe.html...this book is a very detailed analysis of land reform in Trujillo's reign. As I'm sure you guys know many others tried to break DR out of the subsistence farming, small plot model to no avail. This regime was one that made great strides in moving a higher stage of agriculture. I was reminded because generoso you mentioned that the details of confiscation/ownership could be 'mutually worked out and negotiated'. You can guess how this payed out in instances when Trujillo wanted to redistribute unused lands possessed by gentry. He actually was diplomatic and opportunistic in conronting private ownership. It is hard to see how that would play out in a democratic regime, and especially with intrusos of the Norte who would oppose even a whiff of redistribution.
From: United States, Washington
I think we're thinking in complimentary ways, gereroso, but the fact that we're Dominican does & should not make us think that we should help our "own" first. These are people we're trying to help, regardless of national origin or artificial borders. THe other day I saw a news report that showed that people in Puerto Principe were eating "mud cookies" b/c they could not afford anything else to eat! These mud cookies were literally made out of dirt. When one is faced with such misery, regardless where it is, one must act. That's the humanitarian plea...
Now, many of us, not including me, think that Haitian migrants are a significant social problem in the DR, if it's that big a problem, we can help Haiti develop, lessen the flow of migrants, and lessen this so-called social-problem. I'm sure you've read people's views of Haitian migrants, so I don't need to get into that, but this would be a humane and constructive way of addressing the issue. This is far from another "metro" idea.
Written by: etiennc, 24 Feb 2009 6:31 PM
From: United States
I have to congratulate all of you ,including Rosos who have carefully navigated away fron the spiritual cause of the Haitian dillema
You wish to deal with stressful effects instead of the causes it is ok,. In this fre forum you can pick and choose which aspect of the concern you feel confortable with.
I am still concerned about causes, I will venture to say that any woman who lay children like fish knowing that she will not be able to provide for then commits child abuse.
Any woman who lays children like fish and expect someone else of another country to provide for the children who have delopped severe form od cretinism because of chronic malnutrition is selfishly delusional. Hear right selfisly delusional (Psycho)
A child sufering from chronic cretinism and indeed a retarded child, useless to society
Written by: etiennc, 24 Feb 2009 6:35 PM
From: United States
so now it is not enough to feed these children afrte they are born but also dealing with their limitations.It is figuring out how sit them in a society being useless.
It is also reversing the physiological damages that years of stavation have caused
Written by: generoso, 24 Feb 2009 8:10 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Manhatannite
Thanks for the thread, I have just ordered the book.
From: United States
GEN-Just saw the video, and I had a lot of mixed feelings. It really broke my heart to see the conditions of those Haitians men that are clearly being exploited by powerfull self-interest groups to benefit their own, but to the detriment of our native population. But as you said, "We are sitting in a powder keg situation". What do you think is going to happen when construction is all over? Where are all these guys going to go? Back to Haiti? BULL --We all clearly know it will not last forever,economic cycles have their up and down swings. Have they not thought what is going to happen to these thousands of young unemployed, undocumented, hungry, Haitian men running around in a foreign land, with no laws to protect them, with minimal rights and tetosterones running high at over 100 miles per hour. Certainly a perfectly combined flamable mixture for that powder keg to easily ignite and explode. How big and How powerful will the explosion be is yet to be seen.
Written by: etiennc, 26 Feb 2009 6:28 PM
From: United States
In 'Antigua Roma' the Romans had the "aves de mal aguero" sent to inspect the sky to help predict the weather. Since this was not an exact science , too often they predicted the weather wrong.
You know I like to ramble a lot,what I am trying to tell you guys , Roso included ,do not even think for a moment that Haitians and Dominicans authorities don't have a contengency plan to contain any social disturbances on Dominican soil e .g, the new acquisition of war planes from Brazil by Dominican authorities , US war ships in Dominican waters.
it need be American troups will land a matter of minutes.
From: United States
It's not in the U.S. advantage to see war between Haiti and DR. That would have happened long time ago if it would have served their purpose.
I think the war planes are part of a lobby group plan to empty their inventory on DR. Probably Money has exchanged hands on all sides.
From: United States
War between Haiti and the Dominican Republic ????????????
What kind of dried leaves you have been smoking ?
Written by: generoso, 26 Feb 2009 7:25 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
etiennc
Yeah what have you been smoking!
Forget about American troops landing anywhere, that was in the old days, when they cared.
Now they will let us kill each other off to reduce the population of both places.
Forget about war, Haitians are too hungry to fight and Dominicans are lovers not fighters.
From: United States
"Dominicans are lovers not fighters," Yeah GEN, thatsss is for sure..!!!!.
Written by: generoso, 26 Feb 2009 8:08 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
guillermone
I should have said we prefer to be lovers but we can be fierce fighters, so we would not be mistaken for the French!
We all have a Rubirosa complex. LOL.
From: United States
GEN- True, the French and I believe also the Italians. But we definately don't want to be like the Greeks.
Anyway during the 1965 revolution we demonstrated an impressive capacity to fight.
And of course we all know our Dominican military master mind General Maximo Gomez, instrumental in defeating the Spanish in Cuba during the Spanish American War.
Written by: generoso, 26 Feb 2009 11:37 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
guillermone
One of the bravest commandos and trainer of the "frogmen" or hombres ranas was an Italian mercenary who fought in WW II called Illio Capocci who died during the assault on the palace with coronel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez the architect of the '65 revolution.
Also another French mercenary Andres Riviere fought valiantly with the "frogmen" until he was killed by a sniper.
The French Foreign Legion has bred some fearless fighters as well, that fought in Algeria and Vietnam so the legend doesn't apply to all components of those nationalities.
From: United States
They should have stayed in the water-NO GEN-Only kidding, Well that just goes to show you, that stereotypes are just that, and only that.
From: United States
Napoleon. Nothing more needs to be said to people who mock French military prowess :P
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
during the Iraq war if Turkey had attacked Iraq from the rear ?..the question is would Greece have helped ?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
you Manny know the answer to that one
Written by: generoso, 27 Feb 2009 9:18 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Manhattanitte
Remember that Napoleon's army was not only French, it was composed of many different nationalities. Anyway you are talking ancient 19 Th century history here. The French were no heroes
during the two world wars in the 20 TH century and had to be rescued by the English, Australians, Canadians
and Americans otherwise the Germans will still be goose stepping in the Champs Elysees.
Written by: generoso, 27 Feb 2009 9:25 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
guillermone
The Dominican "frogmen" or hombres rana were the most elite armed forces group that fought in the Caamaño side during the revolution. They were trained by elite foreign professional soldiers and they were the modern day equivalent of the US seal team.
They provided training in hand to hand combat, small arms and explosives to the civilian commando units and were considered the backbone of the Dominican rebel forces.
They fought valiantly including the "Matum" hotel ambush, were they repelled a much larger tank force with just small arms, grenade launchers and fierce determination.
Written by: etiennc, 27 Feb 2009 10:02 AM
From: United States
I spent three days at the hotel Matum and I saw some pictures of the vaillant soldiers.
I was also with my girl friend and one night she asked me why I was so couragous and I said motivation girl , just motivation.
Enjoy my ramblings and my parables?
Roso, lately you have talking about Dominicans being lovers, are you comtemplating a sex change operation and become confused like " jose ana " ( formerly 'Hemaphrodite).
haitian 1804 has been quiet lately, maybe he is recuperating from his brain surgery ( they have removed a stupidity growth size of a quarter.
Written by: generoso, 27 Feb 2009 10:07 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
etiennc
You sexist comments are not funny at all and you should stop the Brugal and apologize.
Your Haitian half is taking over I see and resorting to gender slander.
From: United States
The island of Haiti is known as an island of rebels. An island of people who kicked the butts of European oppressors to free the island from slavery.
Written by: etiennc, 27 Feb 2009 1:56 PM
From: United States
ok roso, i will zip it !
i am just suffering from bs fatigue
see ,i did not even respond to citizen of haiti oops ! mean citizen of the world
Written by: generoso, 27 Feb 2009 2:02 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
An island of rebels? OK.
I would guess to affirm that you must be Haitian.
Besides kicking the European oppressors, who BTW were outnumbered by more than 500,000 slaves to 40,000 colonizers how have you progressed as a nation?
Who gave you the right the invade the peaceful and unarmed eastern half of the island and commit
genocide, install your racist agenda, Afro-supremacist laws and rape and loot the land and murder the inhabitants as you pleased?
From: United States
EXERPT FROM WINSTON PAULINO' S LETTER AND NEW SONG
I want to express my affection to all readers CIBAEÑO75 Guillermón, JACIREZ especially CITIZEN_OF_THE_WORLD, as well as everyone else. I take this opportunity to rebel grabaré soon to a song in which I express my sincere opinion and feelings towards the people of Haiti. That song is titled:
"Haiti: Commitment to All" or "Give a hand to Haiti" and consideration of all of you, I reiterate my admiration, esteem and respect I send the letter of the song.
You can contact me at: winpaulino@yahoo.com
"HAITI: THE COMMITMENT OF ALL"
("Give a hand to Haiti)
Republica Dominicana
and Haiti: the nearby town ...
Are two brotherly nations
Under the same sky.
The Haitian in his sorrow,
To read the whole letter and song, go to the link below:
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....r-to-readers-of-dominicantodaycomFrom: United States
Peace.
Dominican Singer/Song Writer Winston Paulino is a true citizen of the world. He is calling for peace, harmony, understanding and fraternity.
Written by: generoso, 27 Feb 2009 3:55 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Haitian Citizen of the world
Dominicans are calling for all illegal Haitians to return to their country now, together with peace,
harmony, understanding and fraternity.
From: United States
generoso, are you the president of DR? Your name is Leonel? Cool it my friend. It's more complicated than you think. You are walking a very thin line. Ignorance very often leads to stupidity. Grow up! You are not funny. You are not smart. You are not informed. You are not intelligent. You are not helping. Your comments show the depth of your immaturity and your ignorance. Have you ever had anything significant and valuable to say? What are you doing with your life? What's the purpose of your existence on this planet? What have you ever contributed to society? What's your mission here?
Go meditate on the importance of life. Go think about the gift of life. Don't just comment for the sake of commenting. Say something that makes sense for at least once.
Take a clue for Dominican singer/song writer Winston Paulino. I don't know him and I've never met him in my life, but I can assure you he is an exceptional human being. DR is lucky to have a citizen like him.
Written by: etiennc, 27 Feb 2009 8:24 PM
From: United States
Roso did you read what I have just read ?
When I told you that citizen of Haiti suffers from selfish delusion then you are going to ask me to be nice to him ( her)
I keep saying when a poor Haitian woman who can not have daily meal is laying children like cod fish she is commiting child abuse.
citizen of Haiti just uncovers this new frase:
" Importance of life "
How easy it is to teach the importance of life in a Dominican forum
Written by: generoso, 27 Feb 2009 9:01 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
etiennc
Another Haitian voo doo man trying to hypnotize us with his blabber.
And I quote:
Have you ever had anything significant and valuable to say? Yes, go back to Haiti.
What are you doing with your life? Making sure you go back to Haiti
What's the purpose of your existence on this planet? Send illegal Haitians back to Haiti
What have you ever contributed to society? DR for Dominicans. Haitians back to Haiti.
What's your mission here?
Not to be fooled by Haitians sophists such as yourself.
From: United States
Label me as Dominican, that's fine. Label me as Haitian, that's fine. Label me as a Jew, that's fine. Label me as Japanese, that's fine. Label me as American, that's fine. Label me as Indian, that's fine. Label me as Taino, that's fine. Label me as a Muslim, that's fine. Label me a Taliban, that's also fine. I am simply a CITIZEN OF THE WORLD. I am from planet earth.
From: United States
GEN & etiennc-Like I said once before, this guy Citizen has his heart in the right place and I truly believe he means well, but I sense an incredible amount of imbalance. I don't think he is all there and it is likely he might not have all his oars in the water. I was a psychology major in college and I can smell them a mile way. I have my doubts, I don't think he is really "from planet earth." Just ignore and pay no mind.
Written by: generoso, 28 Feb 2009 11:07 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Citizen_of_the_World
Same words were uttered by the "elephant man" in England.
" I am a human being, I need drugs also"
Why don't you use your energies and devote them to the betterment of your country, Haiti, instead of
trying to preach to Dominicans that YOU know better with all your peace and love BS.
I am all for peace and love but I am also for preserving the territorial integrity of the Dominican Republic and the ejection of all illegal immigrants that abuse our hospitality and strain our resources,
wether they are Haitian, Martian or any other nationality.
Like any other civilized country in the world the DR has a right to protect their designated borders, control the illegal flow of immigrants, and preserve the infrastructure, health services, housing and job opportunities being crowded by the exporting of the Haitian sick, poor and jobless to the DR.
Written by: Lautaro, 28 Feb 2009 11:39 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I have the feeling that Citizen is only Smitty on disguise again, general. I guess that he's unable to understand that no matter the disguises he uses, we will always be able of snuffing him out, or the fact that we will not fall to his "syren chants", no matter how appealing they might be. As Juan Pablo Duarte would say: "Santo Domingo será libre o se hunde la isla". Viva la República Dominicana, carajo!!!
Written by: generoso, 28 Feb 2009 12:36 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Lautaro
Syren chants are the very proper definition of what he is attempting to do.
Just like Ulysses in Greek mythology was being wooed by the sirens chants, Mr. Why Smitty or
all the other grandiose pseudonyms that are used by this sick individual, misleads and confuses the
readers and tries to magically transport them to his delirious world, now with music.
It is the same technique used by voo doo practitioners to hypnotize their followers.
He is waltzing and dancing around the same faulty ideology to deceive and mesmerize at the end.
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What we have here his Haitiaphobia which is fear of Haitians and it is so deep in the system you will need something nuclear to get it out.
We are one people. It's high time we realize that and save ourselves some trouble...
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....lauds-Dominican-singer-songwriter
Hay Compadre, utè tiene razòn
Winston Paulino is trying to get some milleage out of this...Don't blame the playr...blame the game...
Haitian or Dominican? So what? The outside world usually refers to the entire island as Haiti. Maybe it's for historical reason.
Winston Paulino's song transcends all matter of race and nationality. The man is way ahead of the mind of most Dominicans living in DR. This song will put him on the international stage and will do a lot of good for DR image. Winston Paulino refuses to entrap himself into a narrow and shortsighted thinking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z2biUeHJmk
A Dominican and a Haitian were arguing over the race issue and an old man who has been listening to them said this : You know what , when they throw both of you in hell you both are going too look black and CRISPY. Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Ha !!
Black and crispy , You get te joke ?
Guillermone . you get it ? black and crispy !
2-The whole island is known as Hispanolia! Only called Haiti (1822-1843)! And called STODGO from 1492 to 1795!
3-Not one transcend our nationality with the purpose of destroying our identity!
Moreover, these same people who hold fast that identities in the DR are so rigid, many of these people are also ones who long to become "American" and taut that their children, born in the U.S., are American. Why is it then, given that they are open to an evolving identity in the U.S., they are so closed and rigid when it comes to Identities in the DR?
This may come as a shock to many, but there is no SINGLE Dominican Identity. THe DR is a multicultural society, and we should be tolerant of cultures that don't fit what WE may consider the dominant culture. So what if some people prefer to drink Whiskey instead of Rum? or Guinness instead of Presidente? So what if some prefer English or French music, to Merengue/Bachata? So WHAT? are these not people?
What I don't understand, WHY ALL THE HATE? In my town there are many Haitians, and they are a part of the community. Sure they have their own creole church, and tend to hangout by themselves, but that doesn't take away from the Spanish-speaking churches or from me hanging out w/ the guys to talk about Politics! This "clan" mentality, where whoever is not member of our clan is seen as Sub-Human, is the wrong attitude. We need to promote Human-Rights and justice for All- women, non-whites, migrants, elderly, LGBT, and disabled...
The DR is a poor country, we are a people who suffer under the incredible plight of a political class that cares about itself, and an oligarchy that lives to extort as much as it can, but that does not give us the right to discriminate against these poor people who simply are trying to survive. THESE ARE PEOPLE, and should be treated with all the dignity that we would want to get treated with.
If we want to stem the tide of migrants, lets help develop Haiti...
It's just a thought... But by trying something new, we may get different results. All our policies should be guided by the simple NORMATIVE guidelines that the people we're treating are PEOPLE w/ rights afforded to them by our commitment to Human Rights and Liberalism.
I am with you on this one.
Even mighty US would have trouble absorbing so many poor and unskilled people. Haitians need to stand up for their own country, settle differences and work toward rebuilding and gererating prosperity. Reforestation should be a priority to preclude recurrence of natural catastrophies; also, to create jobs.
All Domincans should have vested interest in seeing a strong and prosperous neighbor to the west, both for stability and all-important commerce.
We can take the $$ we spend on deportations, and help develop the border area around Haiti - that's one way we can help.
I really think you have sound judgment and great common sense to become the president of Dominican Republic for the better. Your view points are realistic and rational.
You should write a book. Maybe you will enlighten millions of distorted minds in this world.
Keep up the good work my friend!
Animals have a way to deal with food shortage, the mamamals males become temporayly sterile or have a lowerr sperm caount,the females stop ejecting the odor that signals to the males that they are in heat,
The alpha male of a pack will kill all youngest born since they can not feed them,
Birds also lay less eggs , the female bird will kill one of her new borns or the stronger new born will drive the weakest out of the nest .
The Haitian elite complains why the poor, the less educated,give birth to so may children when they know they will not be able to care for them,
The elite has already given up.
A method of contraception shoul be implemented so Haitian poor woman could stop having so many children.
They do not get pregnant because they ffall in love because they are too hungry to worry about love. the do not get pregnant because they enjoy sex, they are too hungry to enjoy sex. they get pregnant because of a lack of sexual education and disciplne,
They do not care about the consequences of bringing 4 5 6 children
How can a woman who is poor and is struggling everyday to get just a mere pittance has the audacity to lay down with a man and get pregnant.
All poor Haitian woman when being interviewed usually will tell you that she has 4 5 6 7 children to feed.
What was she thinking about when she could not feed her first child she opens her legs to get pregnant 4 5 6 7 times.
Haitian women need to keep their legs closed and Haitian men need to keep it inside their pants
A Jewish couple usually averages 6 to 9 children in a family. But Israel receices about $10 billion economic assistance from the U.S. every year.
Good job, Haitians! Mutiply, but cultivate your land to produce food.
The man sees the sun behind every dark cloud. Look here Mr Clergyman Reverand Preacher Citizen_of_the_World you are totally out of whack. You interweave truth with delusional thinking to the point that is makes you look dangerous!!!
My suggestion, if you want to help the Haitians, go to Guyana and start to pick-up where Rev Jim Jones left off. Take about a half-millian Haitians with you to multipy until they reach 9 million, if for any reason there is scarcity of resources and a over supply of people, you can always resort to the kool aide method for population control.
By the way please don't tell them to get into the wood charcoal making business for income, they might end up turning Guyana into another Haiti and the rest of South America into a coalition of Haitian Republics. Instead, better yet, maybe they can start fertilization clinics: "How to make babies on an empty stomach.
It's just that simple !!!
The word is ABUNDANCE !
Does the jewish people follow God's laws. you are damn right they do and look at all the abundance bestwed upon them
They are all doctors, lawyers, businessmen and polically powerful.
Do haitians follow Gods laws ?
They keep multipliying and expect someone else to care for their children be they the Americans, the Dominicans and what have.you.
They should follow the example of the animals when food are scarce they stop multiplying .
You say GOOD WORK keep multiplying, nowyou see whay the Domonicans, the Americans, the Bahamaians are so upset with Haitians.
Like the Haitian proverb se pa grenn ou ou di peze (These are not your balls you say squeeze)
Anyhow, the day you see me driving around in a luxury SUV is the day I've sold out! I may get a jeepeta, but it would only be to go up to our fincas, not to drive around in the city so people can look at me.
Lautero, if we wait for the international community to act, or condition our own action on theirs, then nothing will ever happen. We need to lead the way. We need to send our own version of the Peace Corps into Haiti to help developed Small enterprises, to plant trees, to improve farming and irrigation, etc. If we Haiti develops, less migrants, more economic opportunity for the DR, and the LIVES of people improve, which is the REAL goal. It's not the lack of resources that stops this, but rather the lack of political will.
Citizen, a book is coming, but it's about political clientelism in the DR, its effects, and ways to address it w/i the Dominican context.
If it will help you get on board, think of it this way - we're helping haiti, so that WE can benefit from the political goodwill, from reduced migration, and from the jobs we'll get from the development agencies. Oh and yes, WE'LL BE HELPING PEOPLE!
I have Jewish friends. They are good people. One of my Jewish friend is a convert from Judahism to Islam. Don't believe that any group of people was chosen by God. That's BULL.
All human beings are children of God and equal in the eyes of God.
I'll be the first on cue to buy it, I assure you. At the risk of appearing gossipy, I can't help myself but ask you the following: will it have the sordid details about some of our politicos' "underground" dealings, or as the popular saying goes, about the "bedchamber agreements (acuerdos de aposento)?
Many people see these clientelist networks as "god-sent" b/c it allows them to access resources that couldn't, otherwise; but the truth of the matter is, that those resources- healthcare, education, better roads, employment training & help should be public services NOT conditioned on political behavior. anyhow, I'll stop here, b/c this is all I think about during the day. DT is my escape from clientelism!
Just another example of how the vistors write partial view of history to make themselves look "special."
reminds me of the Rodney King trial. I'm sure you remember the video of the police beating, mercilessly, Rodney King. Well, when interviewed afterwards, some jurors saw the Police defending themselves against a potentially dangerous criminal. How they were able to see that, I don't know (well I do, but won't get into that). but you have to understand that people see things in different ways.
That's why we need a clear, human rights-based approach to dealing with social issues: poverty, public works, political participation, migration issues... And bringin in many stakeholders to help analyze policy decisions.
Some of us have learned since childhood to mistrust the Jewish people to a point that we have even recounced the first books of the Bible that is the Torah, what we call the ancient testament.
This explains why Haitians don not follow the example of the older spiritual brtothers the Jews.
Just for refreshing the memory the Chistian religiin originally took bith from the Jewish religion and a long time was called JUDEO CHRISTIAN
The jewish peolpe nevre stop forgetting their roots and thir slave history. They have learned that religion is not only worshipping but this is a was of life.
Of aspect of the Jewish thing that have helped survive all calamities is the way the treat each individual woman.
They believe that one woman may give birth to a messaiah that will gather all of them and return them to the land of their father.
haitians need to learn how to pray which has never been tought to them.
If haitians as they claim are Chrstians folloer of Jesus himself a Jew, well they need to know how to pray like the Jews do and like Jesus himself did.
The way that Haitians have been trating each other for the past 200 years betray a people who do not know how to pray.
Of you can not pray you can not attract Abundance
The Haitian dilema is an extremely serious problem, I agree. The question is how can we solve it? First and foremost it must be confronted, but before that we need the will to do it. And to confront it, you have to know what is there. In order to stop it, you have to know what to change. In order to do something about it, you have to know what is in the past that created it. In order to turn it around, you have to know what continues to feed it. The solution requires a lot of answers and it is definately not an easy task., but there is hope.
Since citizen of the world had wrongly trumpeted that Haitians have follow God s laws to multiply I had to disagree with him(her)
That the idea of myltiplying should be propotional with the availablity of food.
The Bible is a very old book and its cultural aspect and metaphoric nuances of the chapters and verses should be understood
For example many people support the "philosophy of turning the other cheek "meaning to get slapped again,This could no be farther from the truth since Jesus himself was a revolutionnary and would never preach cowardice and resignation.
Turning the other cheek is a defense mechanism in order not to get slapped a secondr time.The Jews living in Jerusalem in the 1st century though of the left hand as the dirty hand . They used to insult, humiliate and beat their servants.
One can see the fatalism that has been preached to Haitians
One can understand citizen of the world's support for Haitians to keep multiplying.
One can also sense that he ( she) is ridiculing the Haitians.
Who cares they lay children like a queen ant layseggs ?
let the Dominican , the americans, the Bahamaians worry about feeding them.
The Haitian elite has tried to exterminate the surplus of children through benigh neglect when nature is to slow to act.
But instead for some osbcure reason they have concentrated on the historical books(John Jame,Luke ect ,the poetic books:Psalms,the prophetic books: revelation
Chistianiyy is Haitians adoptive religion hence they should follow the example of their older spiritual brothers to get abundance
They should refrain from Voodoo that has caused mistrust and hate among them.
Citizen of the wold you have invited the Jews and the Bible in this debate I would hope that you would get more involved instead of being peripheral and playing a peek a boo game
I give the Jews a lot of credit for advancing themseleves through high education.
Judaism does not teach compassion. It's "an eye for an eye". Remember Ghandi said "An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind".
If Haitians want to adopt the Judeo Chistian faith the need to do what their older spisitual brothers do.
If you are an adoptive schild you follow what the natural child do.
The essence of religion is and has always beeb :secret sign secret decoration,secret symbols iniations ,swearings., rituals,laws about dieting, laws about preparing your food, laws about evry activities.
How many religion in the world you know that are open. The may have certain ritiuals that are open but in order to keep the religiopn strong certain activities must be remaini secret.
As I have said before Religion is is not only ( religare-worshippng) It is a way of life it is the way you treat your neighbour ans so forth.
Religion is not something you practice when you feel like, when you have a new dress or a new suit to show off in a worshipping place.
.
Is n't ironic that the Haitians wha have received the Bible some 200 years ago and have no natural historical bond with the book feel that they should bypass God/s laws (The 5 first book , the Torah) and dwelve in the new testament.
The new testament is about Jesus Christ.
No wonder Haitians are so confused that they are forced to practice Voodoo as a supporting religion.
As they say 85 % of Haitians are Christians and 100% are voudouisants ( Voodoo worshippers)
I do not agree that is the DR responsibility to better the situation in Haiti,
by sending Dominicans on a nation building quest there.
The Haitians must do that on their own, they can not and must not be led by the hand by us.
On the other hand if the Haitian government will stop the blame game and will sincerely make a joint effort to ask for aid to start solving the
many problems that affect us both. Then I am all for it.
Two countries united in their request to the world community could start the funds that need to be invested to alleviate the hunger and suffering in both countries.
In Dominican Republic there is much arable land that is not being farmed at present because of lack of agricultural incentives and investment. It is estimated that with an investment of one billion dollars the DR could become a net exporter of food products.
This come be done with three things:
1. International agricultural investments managed by the donor countries not by DR or Haiti
3. Proceeds from these international loans or donations would be used to the betterment of living conditions of both Haitians as well as Dominicans.
Does this sound like a crazy off the wall idea?
So instead of arguing between us to no avail, we could be finding solutions to the problem that revolves around a basic principle:
Feed the hungry, shelter the poor, protect the innocent, and use the land that is not being used at present for the betterment of both countries.
We can deal with the issues of illegal immigration, documentation of illegals, resettlement or deportation, birth control, education and so forth as we go along.
Meanwhile all the disenfranchised Haitians and Dominicans will have
a common purpose revolving around hard work and producing food staples for the whole island as well as for export.
We can use the Israeli experience building farming cooperatives or Kibbutz as a model.
In Dominican the word that is used is "combite" and it probably comes from the French or Creole.
"Conbite" even used today on weekends all the farmers get together one day and work to build something in unison to the benefit of a single farmer in need.
Dominican farm land is so fertile and productive and it is a shame not to use all our resources to grow food wisely. Haitian strong arms and labor would have a place in this joint venture.
Let's have our own version of a mix between a "combite" and a "kibbutz".
The ownership question is a sticky subject and would need legislation, I would suggest for expediency purposes to rent the vacant land on a long term basis from their owners, never confiscate. The details such as in your question can be mutually worked out and negotiated.
Judging by the study of both the haitian and dominican experience, I can say that the best bet would be making them a medium grant, because a small grant would only incentive the farmers to only plant for subsistence, as the haitian example have shown, which would only be detrimental to the environment. On the part of the large grants, it would only lead to a large concentration of the land in a few hands, as it have been the dominican experience for a large part of its independent existence (in fact, there are still some large latifundia out there, cuz' Balaguer could not nationalize everything on his failed attempt at land reform). As the general said, the ideal would be a medium grant regime organized on the model of the israeli kibbutz, the best agrarian model that I have encountered on my studies so far.
It is remarkable how we are tuned to the same frequency posting almost identical solutions simultaneously.
Medium grants are the only way to go.
We must never use the term "land reform" as it evokes past failures and creates an adverse political
climate.
Whatever we do, including your ideas, it's key that we help development on the Haitian side to help Haitians improve their lives w/o risking being the victims of Human Rights violations as migrants in the DR. Moreover, the forward & backward linkages that some key industries can have on the Haitian economy can spur a positive cycle of development. The DR, again, can play a key role as a catalyst to spur these efforts.
So not nation building, but good neighbor policy that will benefit All and facilitate international funds coming to the island.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE81CLJJd7c
We are sitting in a powder keg situation or like the famous Frenchman that Lautaro quoted once talking about the slaves in Haiti before the uprising of 1791.
" A volcano ready to erupt"
This is a win-win situation. I can't see the downside. But that's the role of discussing these issues, maybe you see something I don't.
Realistically your ideas are idealistic but not practical at present. We have to look for solutions that can be applied IMMEDIATELY.
Haiti is a basket case and the security situation is terrible.
To better describe Haiti is renaming it "Dark Hole" where everything that goes in there disappears
and is sucked inside for eternity.
As a Dominican I care about Haiti, but I care about Dominican Republic first.
I will never venture to remotely think I can unravel the "gordian knot" that is the Haitian mess and I
will never even attempt to do.
We must make our country strong and at the same time help solve the illegal Haitian exodus and immigration to DR that is corroding our nation.
We must focus on solutions to our problems first with a clear intention to help the Haitians return to their homeland, so they can do the unraveling and nation building on their own.
Do not have any fantasies other than that.
Religion is used as a form of opium to the mass. Remember who said that?
You see Generoso, I care most about helping people regardless of their country, and if we continue to think in these provincial mentality, no offense intended, then little will actually happen to solve the problem. Put people and human rights first should be our motto.
The Security issue is a large concern, but even this could be worked out w/ the help of the international community. We just need to dare to try something new!
Your precepts are idealistic, mine are not "provincial mentality" but realistic, with a strong
dose of practicality with both feet on the ground.
Put your own house in order first, before you can ever help your neighbor. Your rationalizations sound good and are universally accepted such as:
"Put people and human rights first should be our motto" Nothing wrong with that thought and most will agree. But to implement a workable plan to help solve the Haitian problem can not start in Haiti. You are missing the point, the solution does not lie with Dominicans going to Haiti and leading by example. This is not realistic and dwells in illusion and fantasy. Haitians even rejected aid recently that was sent to them from a Dominican charity organization out of national pride.
Haitians and Dominicans basically tolerate each other but they distrust and have long
unsolved blood feuds between each other, remember that. You can not solve that by wishful thinking in one day.
Since you are in Cabrera I suggest you drive to the "Polo magnetico" and talk to my buddy the midget who guards the area (if he is still alive) and ask him to recite a poem he knows by
heart about Dominicans and "Quisqueya la bella".
We can continue later, after the magnetic vibrations of the area will have implanted in your brain some common sense.
But any Development effort not based in Haiti will only attract more migrants, its as simple as that. We need to improve situation on the haitian side, and that is the key difference in what I'm proposing. It's not leading by example, it's actually helping design, train, execute, and maintain projects. Essentially, what the PlanInternational and the other dvelopment organizations come to do in the DR, we can try to do with Haiti. Have you ever worked with a dev. organization? Do you know how they work? If they're doing it right, they have a participatory approach at defining, designing, and implementing the projects. It's not that they go and do things, but rather they work with the community to address the development need. They provide the technical knowledge and the community provides the local knowledge. Take a look at how the PeaceCorps works... That's all I'm proposing. and even then, that will only address one factor in Haitian Migration to the DR.
I basically agree with you in all your fine ideas but this one:
"We need to improve situation on the haitian side" and literally I agree with it also.
But we are Dominicans first, correct? We have many challenges in our own country that we must solve. Correct?
It is a given that if the economic situation in Haiti improves, the Haitian illegals will return home. Are you with me so far?
But we have to improve our nation first, before we can start trying to help others.
We just have too many unfulfilled needs that are not being addressed by the DR government. The same government that chose to build a metro instead of solving all the other more urgent priorities that are awaiting solutions.
Let's not think with a "metro" mentality and focus on solving our own problems first,
before we can start fantasizing about being so magnanimous to be able to help our neighbors in need at the same time.
http://osirisoptic.blogspot.com/2009/02/el-jefe.html
...this book is a very detailed analysis of land reform in Trujillo's reign. As I'm sure you guys know many others tried to break DR out of the subsistence farming, small plot model to no avail. This regime was one that made great strides in moving a higher stage of agriculture. I was reminded because generoso you mentioned that the details of confiscation/ownership could be 'mutually worked out and negotiated'. You can guess how this payed out in instances when Trujillo wanted to redistribute unused lands possessed by gentry. He actually was diplomatic and opportunistic in conronting private ownership. It is hard to see how that would play out in a democratic regime, and especially with intrusos of the Norte who would oppose even a whiff of redistribution.
Now, many of us, not including me, think that Haitian migrants are a significant social problem in the DR, if it's that big a problem, we can help Haiti develop, lessen the flow of migrants, and lessen this so-called social-problem. I'm sure you've read people's views of Haitian migrants, so I don't need to get into that, but this would be a humane and constructive way of addressing the issue. This is far from another "metro" idea.
You wish to deal with stressful effects instead of the causes it is ok,. In this fre forum you can pick and choose which aspect of the concern you feel confortable with.
I am still concerned about causes, I will venture to say that any woman who lay children like fish knowing that she will not be able to provide for then commits child abuse.
Any woman who lays children like fish and expect someone else of another country to provide for the children who have delopped severe form od cretinism because of chronic malnutrition is selfishly delusional. Hear right selfisly delusional (Psycho)
A child sufering from chronic cretinism and indeed a retarded child, useless to society
It is also reversing the physiological damages that years of stavation have caused
Thanks for the thread, I have just ordered the book.
"Haiti, The Commitment of All"
Check out the article and opine.
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....r-to-readers-of-dominicantodaycom
You know I like to ramble a lot,what I am trying to tell you guys , Roso included ,do not even think for a moment that Haitians and Dominicans authorities don't have a contengency plan to contain any social disturbances on Dominican soil e .g, the new acquisition of war planes from Brazil by Dominican authorities , US war ships in Dominican waters.
it need be American troups will land a matter of minutes.
I think the war planes are part of a lobby group plan to empty their inventory on DR. Probably Money has exchanged hands on all sides.
What kind of dried leaves you have been smoking ?
Yeah what have you been smoking!
Forget about American troops landing anywhere, that was in the old days, when they cared.
Now they will let us kill each other off to reduce the population of both places.
Forget about war, Haitians are too hungry to fight and Dominicans are lovers not fighters.
I should have said we prefer to be lovers but we can be fierce fighters, so we would not be mistaken for the French!
We all have a Rubirosa complex. LOL.
Anyway during the 1965 revolution we demonstrated an impressive capacity to fight.
And of course we all know our Dominican military master mind General Maximo Gomez, instrumental in defeating the Spanish in Cuba during the Spanish American War.
One of the bravest commandos and trainer of the "frogmen" or hombres ranas was an Italian mercenary who fought in WW II called Illio Capocci who died during the assault on the palace with coronel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez the architect of the '65 revolution.
Also another French mercenary Andres Riviere fought valiantly with the "frogmen" until he was killed by a sniper.
The French Foreign Legion has bred some fearless fighters as well, that fought in Algeria and Vietnam so the legend doesn't apply to all components of those nationalities.
Remember that Napoleon's army was not only French, it was composed of many different nationalities. Anyway you are talking ancient 19 Th century history here. The French were no heroes
during the two world wars in the 20 TH century and had to be rescued by the English, Australians, Canadians
and Americans otherwise the Germans will still be goose stepping in the Champs Elysees.
The Dominican "frogmen" or hombres rana were the most elite armed forces group that fought in the Caamaño side during the revolution. They were trained by elite foreign professional soldiers and they were the modern day equivalent of the US seal team.
They provided training in hand to hand combat, small arms and explosives to the civilian commando units and were considered the backbone of the Dominican rebel forces.
They fought valiantly including the "Matum" hotel ambush, were they repelled a much larger tank force with just small arms, grenade launchers and fierce determination.
I was also with my girl friend and one night she asked me why I was so couragous and I said motivation girl , just motivation.
Enjoy my ramblings and my parables?
Roso, lately you have talking about Dominicans being lovers, are you comtemplating a sex change operation and become confused like " jose ana " ( formerly 'Hemaphrodite).
haitian 1804 has been quiet lately, maybe he is recuperating from his brain surgery ( they have removed a stupidity growth size of a quarter.
You sexist comments are not funny at all and you should stop the Brugal and apologize.
Your Haitian half is taking over I see and resorting to gender slander.
i am just suffering from bs fatigue
see ,i did not even respond to citizen of haiti oops ! mean citizen of the world
I would guess to affirm that you must be Haitian.
Besides kicking the European oppressors, who BTW were outnumbered by more than 500,000 slaves to 40,000 colonizers how have you progressed as a nation?
Who gave you the right the invade the peaceful and unarmed eastern half of the island and commit
genocide, install your racist agenda, Afro-supremacist laws and rape and loot the land and murder the inhabitants as you pleased?
I want to express my affection to all readers CIBAEÑO75 Guillermón, JACIREZ especially CITIZEN_OF_THE_WORLD, as well as everyone else. I take this opportunity to rebel grabaré soon to a song in which I express my sincere opinion and feelings towards the people of Haiti. That song is titled:
"Haiti: Commitment to All" or "Give a hand to Haiti" and consideration of all of you, I reiterate my admiration, esteem and respect I send the letter of the song.
You can contact me at: winpaulino@yahoo.com
"HAITI: THE COMMITMENT OF ALL"
("Give a hand to Haiti)
Republica Dominicana
and Haiti: the nearby town ...
Are two brotherly nations
Under the same sky.
The Haitian in his sorrow,
To read the whole letter and song, go to the link below:
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....r-to-readers-of-dominicantodaycom
Peace.
Dominican Singer/Song Writer Winston Paulino is a true citizen of the world. He is calling for peace, harmony, understanding and fraternity.
Dominicans are calling for all illegal Haitians to return to their country now, together with peace,
harmony, understanding and fraternity.
Go meditate on the importance of life. Go think about the gift of life. Don't just comment for the sake of commenting. Say something that makes sense for at least once.
Take a clue for Dominican singer/song writer Winston Paulino. I don't know him and I've never met him in my life, but I can assure you he is an exceptional human being. DR is lucky to have a citizen like him.
When I told you that citizen of Haiti suffers from selfish delusion then you are going to ask me to be nice to him ( her)
I keep saying when a poor Haitian woman who can not have daily meal is laying children like cod fish she is commiting child abuse.
citizen of Haiti just uncovers this new frase:
" Importance of life "
How easy it is to teach the importance of life in a Dominican forum
Another Haitian voo doo man trying to hypnotize us with his blabber.
And I quote:
Have you ever had anything significant and valuable to say? Yes, go back to Haiti.
What are you doing with your life? Making sure you go back to Haiti
What's the purpose of your existence on this planet? Send illegal Haitians back to Haiti
What have you ever contributed to society? DR for Dominicans. Haitians back to Haiti.
What's your mission here?
Not to be fooled by Haitians sophists such as yourself.
I urge all of you to watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmxT21uFRwM
Thank you
Peace & Love
Brothers and Sisters,
Watch this video of Winston Paulino also. Great video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sefCwRpOnZs&feature=related
Same words were uttered by the "elephant man" in England.
" I am a human being, I need drugs also"
Why don't you use your energies and devote them to the betterment of your country, Haiti, instead of
trying to preach to Dominicans that YOU know better with all your peace and love BS.
I am all for peace and love but I am also for preserving the territorial integrity of the Dominican Republic and the ejection of all illegal immigrants that abuse our hospitality and strain our resources,
wether they are Haitian, Martian or any other nationality.
Like any other civilized country in the world the DR has a right to protect their designated borders, control the illegal flow of immigrants, and preserve the infrastructure, health services, housing and job opportunities being crowded by the exporting of the Haitian sick, poor and jobless to the DR.
Syren chants are the very proper definition of what he is attempting to do.
Just like Ulysses in Greek mythology was being wooed by the sirens chants, Mr. Why Smitty or
all the other grandiose pseudonyms that are used by this sick individual, misleads and confuses the
readers and tries to magically transport them to his delirious world, now with music.
It is the same technique used by voo doo practitioners to hypnotize their followers.
He is waltzing and dancing around the same faulty ideology to deceive and mesmerize at the end.