From: United States
let the betting begin; i bid 100 posts by midnight.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
and remember when the stuff hits the fan it is not evenly distributed .....Welcome to Dreads Casino....place your bets
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2009 8:44 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What about the "slimy domino", GC?
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2009 8:52 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
About the article itself, it's basically old news, since it's hardly a secret that Santiago (and perhaps the Cibao in general) is the most anti-haitian region of the entire country. Here on the capital people hardly bat an eyelash about their presence anymore, if we're to take how freely they move on the high class sectors of the city as a sample, an oddity in itself, since in other countries of Lat. Am. (and on Haiti itself on the Petionville area of PAP) the aristocrats make it their first priority the building of fences to "keep the rabble at bay".
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
looking at the photo of these poor children.brings me back to the sad reality of the displaced lives of these poor people...with the world economy going south help could be even farther away than before
From: United States
GC, your unrelieved sympathy for the plight of children is your only redeeming grace. outside of that , you are about as lovely as a mosquito.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2009 9:08 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
"as lovely as a mosquito", LMAO. Can I borrow that punch line, dread?
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
how kind of you to say so
From: United States
i know you take pride in your ability to be bothersome
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
People are feed up and this kind of actions will increase in the near future!!!!
Enough is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no more pacific invasion!!!!1
From: United States
now that the ringmaster Rubirosa has checked in, i think the circus is about to commence. send in the clowns....
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Dreadlocks:
thanks!!!!1
Written by: bernies, 5 Feb 2009 9:38 AM
From: United States, key west fl
Why should the dr be blame for what is happening in haiti, they started it their own downfall then deal with it. it's like they say if you are man enough to do the crime then you have to be man enough to do the time. haiti at one point was one of the wealthiest country in the caribbean, so what happen there. i told you what happen there it is the same thing that happens to Zimbabwe.
Written by: Jander, 5 Feb 2009 10:53 AM
From: Dominican Republic
' The world of the living dead"
Not just here but everywhere all these displaced human beings just trying to survive.
Time for the religous organizations to start practicing what they preach.
I mean honestly does the Vatican or the Jehovah's witnesses need to keep building temples.
Just to name a few..
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Jander:
Well said!!!!!
Written by: bernies, 5 Feb 2009 11:52 AM
From: United States, key west fl
that's exactly one of my point of view sometime jander. why do the pope needs a 24ky gold stick to walk the ailes. it is insame just to look at what type of buildings all these religous groups are building when you have a world full of hungry people. and yet they have the nerves to ask for more for the lesses ones. what a joke they are the ones that are thinking and doing such things.
Written by: devin11, 5 Feb 2009 12:16 PM
From: United States
How ironic that people are looking for the church to help with the situation in Haiti when the church is in much greater disarray than Haiti itself.
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 12:27 PM
From: United States
That is what I am talking about !
This will teach these crackers in power and the dirty elite in Haiti that the Dominicans are not responsible to provide food, shelter and work for Haitians.
For too long these vermines and leeches have been adopting the (5 PA's) that have made Haiti the hell it is now
PA konnen ( We do not know)
PA bisniss pa nou ( It is none of our business)
PA kapab ( We can not)
PA fot nou (it is not our fault)
PA responsab ( We are not responsable)
You are damn wrong , you are responsible to fix Haiti and make it livable instead of dumping your Haitians brothers and sisters on Dominican soil
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 12:36 PM
From: United States
Rubi por favor.
Your input are not really needed since we are doing this in a civil and human way.
If they had refused to leave voluntarily, then we would call you to gas them and to kill them.
We are the last resort because you represent the force of brutality and the wickedness.
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 12:39 PM
From: United States
HaiteIam 1804 I wish you would show decency and patriotic pride and would refrain from posting any stupidities that will give wackoloco Rubi an excuse to start posting his poison
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Etiennc:
Good knowledge admitting the wrongdoings from your own goverment, Dominican poplulation is
kind of fed up watching goverment ineptitude and are taking actions in their own hands, better this
way than watching a "balcanization" process, We have the right of choice and defend our soil and country!!!!
Is not personal but We have the right to adopt policies and rules that fit our well being not your people!!!! OK????
From: United States
Look the truth to the matter is that this is something that is not going to go away. First the border is a joke. People enter and leave on a daily basis without control. This is due to corruption and lack of security. I really don't blame the Haitians for comming in. This people se lo esta llevando el Diablo and they think they are better of in the DR, so they will come to the DR. I blame the DR for failing to control the border and migration of Haitians.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
Mr.Cardozo let me correct you
Al Haitiano se lo esta llevando el mismisimo diablazo.
But in all seriousness that is a sad situation with these Hitian kids.
they are the ones that suffer the most.
But hey it's a Jungle outthere!!!!
From: United States
It is a jungle out there. I also feel bad for the kids involved.
From: Dominican Republic
We need to stop the madness. This people from Santiago showed us the way. We can have mass deportation under human conditions. I just withdrew my support for Danilo Medina after he made comments regarding the Haitian-Dominican crisis. We need to cut the problem now before the crisis turn to genocide. Send the back, it's the only way out. We can close the border, it's doable. As long as we continue to facilitate and enable illegal crossing, the Haitian elite has no reason to organize Haiti.
Sad for those kids, but it will be worse if we result to genocide. Send them back now, it's not too late.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2009 2:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
And what did Danilo say about issue, Bonahan?
From: Dominican Republic
That we mistreat Haitians, that we need to document them and that there's nothing we could do to stop the flow...All of which is false...Sorry, I can't support anyone who thinks like that...We need to solve this problem now.
Written by: kokoloco, 5 Feb 2009 2:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
This situation with the Haitians will never be solved by just deporting every one of them. Weather we like it or not they are already an integral part of the Dominican economy. All the hard labor is done by Haitians and we are too used and to dependent on that.
I think a possible solution would be to start some type migrant work program where Haitians would be allowed in for a predetermined time if they can prove they will be employed and have a place to live.
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 3:35 PM
From: United States
KOKOLOCO appears to be hateIam1804 who has changed name and medications. He is calmer and more rational.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
From: United States
And they said that there was no solution to the illegal Haitian problem. It is amazing how and what the collective power of a community can achieve. Bottom line it was a plain and simple, common sense inexpensive solution to a very serious problem. "..the inhabitants in the zone agreed not to rent houses to the Haitians or give them jobs. When they found themselves out of work, without a roof to sleep under ..they had to leave.. , they agreed without many difficulties." Most importantly it was done ".always respecting the civil and human rights". Apparently, thus far, this worked locally in Santiago, now it must be applied on a national level. One of the reasons it worked is because the residents of Santiago have always been known for close knit communities and their general civism. With this kind of an achievement who needs politicians to solve our problems. It is the power and will of the people that will prevail. Huraah for the people of Santiago!!! VIVA LA REPUBLICA DEL CIBAO!!!!
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
lautaro bonahan48 is wrong about danilo statements about I.Ding Haitians
Medina wants help to issue ID documents to Haitians in Haiti
Danilo Medina, presidential candidate for the Partido de la Liberación Dominicana, urged that developed nations contribute to develop systems in Haiti so that that nation can issue identification documents to all its citizens. The fact that most Haitians, primarily because they are too poor and distrust their government, never bother to get their identification documents creates major problems for the Dominican Republic. When these people cross over without a single identification document they create confusion at the time when they want to declare a child, or register a child in school. Since the parents have no legal names, what is the last name of the child, for instance? Medina told El Caribe newspaper that Haitians' lack of identity documents is one of the major obstacles in the ongoing migratory talks.
source DR1.com
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 7:02 PM
From: United States
I applaud the decision people of Santiago to suggest to Haitians that they return to their home land.
No killings, no abuses of human rights, no burning of houses ,simply you have to return home we do not want you here.
For too long the Dominican Republic has been a refuge for the cowards who refuse to take on the streests tin Haiti to detach the leeches that are sucking their blood.
It is easier to come to the Dominican Republic and gather all the human rights activists to trumpet abuses inflicted on Haitians.
Return home and ask the ladrones running your country that you are not welcome any more on Dominican soil and they should share Haiti's riches with you .Ask them to feed you, to shelter you, yo send your children to school , and give you jobs.
The Dominican Republic is not the answer to your problem.
Written by: zak325, 5 Feb 2009 7:48 PM
From: United States
You make a good point etiennc, when Haitans leave their country, it like a pressure valve for the Haitan government, fewer people for the government in Port-au-Prince to have to deal with. If they were not allowed to enter D.R., Haitans would demand their politicians provide the services they are supposed to. Though the people would suffer in the short term, the long term advantages of responsible government would be worth it.
From: United States
Zak325-You can say that again. "Though the people would suffer in the short term, the long term advantages of responsible government would be worth it" Absolutely and 100% true.
From: United States
"No killings, no abuses of human rights, no burning of houses ,simply you have to return home we do not want you here."
That is the upside of the equation, the down size is that we are going to miss some good sensationalist type news coverage.
From: United States
zak, absolutely on point. the same as the mexican government, which assists its citizens in smuggling themselves into the USA. rather than clean up their own backyard, they would rather their citizens escape to other parts of the world, so they are less of a burden at home. as long as people keep on heading to places like america and europe, third world societies will be formatted for injustice and paucity of opportunities for the poor and disadvantaged. so, mexicans willl flood the usa, and haitians will flood the DR. did i hear someone say "yola"?
Written by: Jander, 5 Feb 2009 8:09 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The Catholic church, once all her assets have been put together, is the most formidable stockbroker in the world. The Vatican, independently of each successive pope, has been increasingly orientated towards the U.S. The Wall Street Journal said that the Vatican's financial deals in the U.S. alone were so big that very often it sold or bought gold in lots of a million or more dollars at one time.
"The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars."
Written by: Jander, 5 Feb 2009 8:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I am just simple soul, but why when the world is in crisis and all this suffering are they not stepping up/
How can they hoard so much wealth and watch the "Children of the God " they supposedly worship starve in front of them.
This goes for all those tele evangelists as well..
From: United States
They left the communities. That doesn't mean they left the country.
From: United States
Jander, was that quote on the Catholic Church taken from the Wall Street Journal, or other source? i always said they were just perpetrators of earth's most transparent racket. they make Bernie Madoff look like a piker.
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 8:33 PM
From: United States
Guillermore I know some Haitians .some Dominicans ,and some in betwenn like me who want to resolve this conflict (Conflict means that dominicans do not enough resources to share with Haitians)
The Dominican authorities refuse to force their younger Haitian counterparts to stop being immature.
The people of Santiago show courage and character when they try to solve the conflicl in a human and civil way.
What strikes many people visiting Haiti is not poverty is wealth.It is the arrogance of the wealthy. It is the waste and the" fithy rich "refuse to share.
Have you asked yourself where the billions of dollars sent to haiti from friendly nations from Haitians living outside Haiti go ???
Haiti has way too many patriots like the one posting stupid comments here to instigate problems.These patriots pillage the coffers and divert our attention
with their never ending insults spitting here
Haiti needs nationalists who wil share the waeth wit
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 8:39 PM
From: United States
Haiti needs nationalists who will share the country wealth among its countrymen.
Unfortunaly people like Rubi gets trapped in the patriot's ruse to engage him in some stupid and vain debates about Haitians and Dominicans
These patriots usually speak about Haiti past which means that Haiti's wealth belongs to them.
Haiti belongs to them only.
From: United States
I'm driving right now to Washington Heights and do the same to the Illegal Dominicans that reside there and had trashed the place for years, garbage everywhere, street vendors selling rotten food.
It's a disgrace for Manhattan to have them,
I hope they act as civilized as the Haitians people,
Will keep you posted about the results !!!!!
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2009 9:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Perception said: "I hope they act as civilized as the Haitians people"
Which ones do you refer? The elitist, stiff upper-lipped ones that live on Rockland, NY. Or to the peasants that live on the "Little Haiti" in Florida? Of the former, I don't doubt your assessment, but for the latter, well, let's just say that I just plain not believe you, specially when your own African American population living over there have a not-too-kind vocabulary when referring to those inmigrants. Have you heard about the term "cat-eater", by chance?
Written by: antonio1, 5 Feb 2009 9:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Av Santa Rosa, La Romana
The reason they are living the country, is because the word is out, Obama will give Haitian the same rights as Cuban migrant, which is: "touch US soil and you are legal".
Written by: santanar, 5 Feb 2009 9:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Ramon Santana, La Romana
Wonderful. While Haitians go back home to get on the boat to Miami, Dominicans taxpayers must deal with the financial destruction left to our treasury. Where is the OUTRAGE ?
Written by: Jander, 5 Feb 2009 10:00 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 10:04 PM
From: United States
Lautaro, I hate to disagree with you.I have lived in Rockland county (upstate NY) for 36 years.The Haitian so called middle class do not live there. As a matter of course they had called us (Habitants) campesinos.
I do agree that Rockland has its share of campesinos.What we have in Rochland specially in Spring Valley is a hard working Haitians unfortunately it is a refelxion oh Haiti wher they can not get along and it is a rat race there.
They can hardly get a place to live when other ethnic groups are favored to obtain lands
You must be refering to Long Island,part of Queens when you are talking about " elitist stiff-lipped ones"
Written by: Jander, 5 Feb 2009 10:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I do apologize for going off topic, but it is related. Why should people have to run off these poor souls when there is plenty of money and resources within the Roman Empire to releive Haiti's problems and probably half the world..
We keep blaming the governments each other it is time the churches step up to the plate.
These ancient laws protecting the Church need to be looked at again. If they are making a profit from of non-profit money and assets then those assets should be seized and distributed to the most needy.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2009 10:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I stand corrected then, ettienn. At least I got it close enough. LOL
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
hey Perception that is not rotten dominican food you're smelling
it's that you forgot to use deodorant since puberty.
Written by: OndeVert 
, 5 Feb 2009 10:26 PM
From: United States
Where did the Haitian go? To another Dominican city? If that happened then the problem was not solved and it was transferred to somebody else! Economic deprivation, isolation, and/or aggresion are the only languages the illegals understand! Dialogue does not work without one of these ingredients included in the carrot + stick approach. The departure of the illegals in this case clearly show that the illegals are in DR NOT BECAUSE THEY LOVE DOMINICAN CULTURE OR VALUES OR LIFESTYLE, they are in DR for money, remittance, and proximity (convenience) to their falied state (Haiti)!
From: United States
I can't remember who exactly, but some religious dude some time ago talked about the fall of Babylon the Great and depicted the ancient city of Babylon symbolicly as a harlot/whore. He said that Rome is the contemporary version of Babylon. Rome commits fornication with the kings of the earth, making them drunk with the wine of her sexuality, misleading the nations by her spiritualistic practices. Anyway, he made a long and complicated explanation to state that we have begun to see the end of Roman Catholicism as a religious empire. Eventually it will fall and like all world empires, it will cease to exist.
From: United States
Trujillo said, "La paz viene de palo y la tranquidad viene de tranca." This is how you sold problems in the DR.
Written by: etiennc, 5 Feb 2009 11:50 PM
From: United States
I will keep reading yoour posts. I hope you guys follow the example of the poeple of Santiago.
I did not see the words" Deodorant and Trujillo" in the article.
I can undertand that sometime we need to use methaphors or extrapolate to clarify a point.
But try to keep your comments relevant to the article so we may see the light at the end of the tunnel.
U r welcome Lautaro
Where is Gerenal Roso when we need him ?
zak325 welcome to the block !
I hope this new development will force the dirty elite to realize that the 5 PA's that they have adopted for the past 205 years can not continue
PA reponsab ( we are not responsable)
PA fot nou ( it is not our fault)
PA kapab ( we can't)
PA bizniss nou( it is not our business)
PA konnen yo ( we do not know them )
Yes this is your business to take care of your Haitian brothers and sisters
Yes tis your danm fault if Haitians are crossing the border illegally
Yes you can help sharing the wealth with them
From: United States, New York
Perception, you're a little too late heading to the Heights, that already happened. The problem was that when Dominican migration started the middle class decided to run out rather than keep the apartments occupied - that in itself shows a big difference in mentality between Americans and Dominicans. Dominicans cannot and should not be internally displaced just because their neighborhoods are filling themselves with Haitian immigrants. Is it that difficult for you and other critics to understand that if all the economic growth DR has had in the past decade would have stayed in DR, there would probably be 1/2 the amount of Dominican emigres that there currently are? Is is that difficult to understand that Haiti is not a Dominican problem, we did not create them (France & Africa did), we did not ask to have them next door (they were an unwelcomed gift from France), we did not screw them over (France, U.S., Canada did). THEY ARE NOT OUR PROBLEM!!!
From: United States, New York
And to add insult to the injury, every other country treats them like crap, but when they manage to live and somewhat advance in Dominican society, they turn around and conspire with international NGO's to "denounce racism." Would you want neighbors like that Perception? Tell me, when was the last time you saw the child of a Dominican immigrant from the Heights, regardless of how hard their life has been in the U.S., denouncing the country that fed them (the USA) in international tribunals?
Written by: kokoloco, 6 Feb 2009 1:12 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Etiennc not sure who this Hatelam...whatever you're comparing me to is, but I can assure you I'm not him. I hate no one and not especially Haitians. In fact I've someway or another have always had friends and association with many Haitians. I admired the ones that come work and do jobs that we lazy Dominicans don't want to do.
However, I've also personally experienced the other side of the issue and having over one million illegal immigrants (by some estimates) is a problem. Many of these people have no choice but to resort to a life of crime and we already have our hands full with our home grown ones. I know many people, family and friends who have been victim of crimes committed by illegal Haitians.
Also, deporting 2 to 3 thousands peacefully or not will do nothing to solve the problem because there are hundreds of thousands waiting to take their place.
Written by: Gizmo , 6 Feb 2009 1:39 AM
From: United States
Haitian elite? haitian goverment? Can someone spare facts! please.....
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 8:15 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
I have been warning about this for many months, so have Lautaro, cibaeño, guillermone, etiennc, DominicanChic, poponlaburrra, and others.
Citizens are getting fed up with the Haitian illegal invasion that has busted the flood gates and like a tsunami are inundating the DR until we drown together, we must avoid civil strife and a Balkan type war.
The government is choosing to bury it's head in the sand like an ostrich irresponsibly, and because of this lack of action citizen groups are forming, like in Santiago de los Caballeros, (rightful name) and are giving the illegal Haitians ultimatums to leave or else.
We should not wait for the "or else" and start the immediate deportation of all illegal Haitians ASAP, and not wait for the fuse to ignite the powder that will blow us all up.
As the economic conditions in the island get progressively worse so will the Dominican tolerance for the Haitian invasion.
Immediate and swift action is warranted.
From: Dominican Republic
We should stop talking and start take actions. Let's continue the forum but also talk to your friends, the pro-Haitian groups are active and well-organized. Their agenda is simple and the language they clear. We need to do our homework: plan, organize and execute. Let us save the Republic. We can give shape to a Dominican identity based on the Trinitarian ideals. Haiti for Haiti, DR for Dominicans! No hyphenated identity allowed.!
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 8:49 AM
From: Canada, home safe
DominicanChic your commentary is more in line with Rubi's of the world, you are another ill advised dominican trapped in the wrong methodology and philosophical ideology of the past that certainly will do nothing way forward to alleviate both countries from proverty and suffering, or break the barrier of mistrust and misunderstanding. Haitian Dominicans relationship is complex I have learned, there is not a single true answer by simply blaming the Haitians France Canada will not do.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 9:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Unfortunately Chic, haitian problems are slowly and steadily becoming our problems as the days are passing, specially with the ostrich attitude of the current authorities and the traditional "I don't care" attitude of the haitian political and social elites. From what my friends on the UN have told me, the latter attitude was plainly shown on the talks that they, along some officers of other international aid agencies and dominican gov. officers, held with the haitian authorities exploring the possibility of building medical facilities on the haitian side of the fence last month, during which the haitians gov. officers did everything on their power to sabotage the initiative. Seriously, how dumber can a government get? It seems that only a nationwide uprising as the one that threatened to erupt last year because of the food shortages will be able to shake these morons from their irresponsible mood and prompt to do something productive for a change.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 9:16 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
I quote your reply to DominicanChic, "you are another ill advised dominican trapped in the wrong methodology and philosophical ideology of the past that certainly will do nothing way forward to alleviate both countries from proverty and suffering".
And my question to you is: What is the "right" methodology" or "philosophical ideology".
Our poverty in DR is being increased exponentially by the reception and shelter of the Haitian poor, sick and disenfranchised that are sent our way on a daily basis.
Even Fidel Castro once had the bright idea to send all the delinquent prisoners of Cuba to the USA, perverts, thieves, con men, rapists, gangsters and criminals.
Therefore known afterwards as the "Marielitos" and upon arriving in the US guess what? they rejoined their previous occupations becoming criminals again.
It is not the same case with the all the Haitians, but my point is that every country has a right to choose, stop and control their immigration quotas.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 9:29 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
And the Haitian "elite" as well as intellectuals consider themselves a "different
breed" than their fellow countrymen. I can attest to very formally educated, bright and polished Haitian ministers, that can outshine most Dominican counterparts in
their cultural base, consider themselves "a separate class" from their fellow countrymen.
This racist supremacist attitude hurts the Haitian people and their progress, and they are worse than the Dominicans in obvious "denial" of their huge problems.
They fantasize and day dream about past glories or having some huge financial
bonanza come their way, like the movement to solicit moneys payed to France as ransom. This is just day dreaming and not having your feet grounded in the sad realities and will most likely never happen.
Blaming others is a sad excuse for not taking responsibility for the welfare of Haiti,
Haitian people are hard working and deserve a better future, but not sucking at the Dominican tit most of the time
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 9:36 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
One more thing and this is directed to Haitians and Dominican alike:
The 1000 mile journey, as a wise oriental sage once wrote, begins with the first step.
And:
Obstacles will occur but do not deviate from the path, and think about crossing the bridge when you finally arrive there.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 9:37 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It seems to me that the only possible solution to this mess lies in the disbandment of the haitian gov., so as the UN or another agency can take charge of the affairs over there and start the serious work of rebuilding the country from scratch, cuz', unlike the cases of Japan and Germany after World War II, Haiti lacks an educated population in enough numbers as to make possible the leap forward to come once the rebuilding process starts (most of them leaving the country in droves after Papa Doc started his "purges"). So the protectorate status would have to last until this educated nucleus can be formed and trained enough to take charge of affairs when the time comes, to prevent repeating the same mistakes that ocurred once the US left the country in 1934.
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 9:39 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Generoso, I do not claim to have the answer, the easiest will be too close the border if that even possible, unfortunately the Dominicans are comdemned to carry some of the burdern of our mistake due to no fault of theirs.
There is a laisser faire attitude in DR, the situation will not get better, they should be pro-active and get involved in away that beneficial to them, and the haitians by simply taking our poor, the uneducated or guarantying a pool of cheap labor will not do, we need a different approach.
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 9:46 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Lat, I agree, I am of the opinion that Haiti should be declared a failed state and the UN taking over with a goal similar to the marshall plan couple with population control, millions have been giving to Haiti to only disappear in smoke.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 9:53 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
The basic problem in Haiti at present is the lack of security that was unraveled after the US invasion disarmament and disbandment of the Haitian army.
They made matters worse by breaking up the Haitian army, just like identical mess they created in Iraq.
Granted the Haitian army was guilty of corruption, smuggling and drug contraband at times. But the corrupted elements mainly officers could have been weeded out, leaving the institution to remain intact.
Rebuilding and strengthening the Haitian army and instilling in them democratic principles, just like we did in DR so they will obey and not interfere with their civilian
higher ups, and not impose coup de etats.
The Haitian army was like a scarecrow to the masses, they respected it and mobs ran away at the sight of soldiers because of their history of brutality and intolerance.
But they served their function well to preserve property and order.
This security is lacking in Haiti at present and needed the most.
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 9:55 AM
From: Canada, home safe
I have read alot posting on DT there are no one that come close to understand so deeply the haitian society and their issues ect.. like Latauro, Generoso, and Pepe32 as usual I welcome your posting and at the same token your commentary will somehow educate or answer some questions from your fellow man.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 10:00 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
While I agree that the security component is essential, general, it's not the only thing that should be prioritized on the current case. If that were to be so, then the Minustah would have been a total sucess, instead of it being only a deterrent against future uprisings (and being dismally undermanned at that, as the events of last April clearly showed), while the roots of the problem remain unresolved, that is, the severe unequality on the distribution of income among the different sectors of the country, and a population lacking basic things, such as housing, food, clothing, health and most importantly, education. Without answering those needs first, security will always remain an issue, no matter the troops employed on the task.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 10:07 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
Thank you for your kind compliments.
My good friend sometimes chastises me for spending so much time posting my comments, but I consider it a necessity to create awareness and understanding amongst both Haitians and Dominicans.
We both have similar problems, the basic ones are lack of education or functional illiteracy. But as we all know its not easy to attend school or concentrate on studying when your stomach is empty or the only modest meal that you will receive is in school, or your daddy wants you to help him with the crops or earning money in whatever desperate way you can and pulls you from attending school.
To eradicate poverty is our biggest challenge and quest, and this can be done first
by feeding the hungry and then offering them opportunities for a better education.
At the same time providing health services to all, not an easy task, but doable in the next 10 years or so if we had a plan.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 10:17 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Mon Dieu, I think that this is the first civilized discussion about this issue that DT have ever had on its four year existence. We'll need to keep our fingers crossed on this one.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 10:26 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
I agree with most of your post except for the influence of Minustah.
The Haitian army was both feared and respected because of their history of brutality and intolerance. Whenever a rallying mob of Haitians saw soldiers coming, they ran and disbanded.
Most of the time just their presence was necessary to impose order and shooting was not needed to maintain peace.
Mostly they were used as "Scarecrows" planted visibly in agriculture to scare crows and buzzards.
The Minustah may have the guns but they don't have the respect.
The situation has deteriorated to a much worse scenario since Haiti is not only a failed state but also a very important narco-state and bridge smuggling drugs to the Dominican Republic and then on to Puerto Rico and the USA.
Because of the large small numbers of illegals attempting this smuggling the probabilities of interdiction are low, and the odds in favor of the dark forces.
From: Dominican Republic
Mr Lautaro and Mr Generoso
You guys are very knowledgeable and the comments are extremely educational
and interesting. But you are keeping me from work!
Keep it up, it's better than going to the movies.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 10:35 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Generoso said: "The Haitian army was both feared and respected because of their history of brutality and intolerance. Whenever a rallying mob of Haitians saw soldiers coming, they ran and disbanded."
I can't blame them for doing so, general. On the scale of brutality of the armed forces in the Americas, the haitian army was perhaps the third after the brazilian and chilean ones, so it wasn't a group to be messing up with. Although they disbanded easily after the US marines set up shop over there on 94'. The reason behind this being the constabulary education that they received at the US funded "School of the Americas", that is, an efficient training in torturing and massacring civilians, but a mediocre one in training them on the art of war against other armies.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 10:41 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
So was the Dominican army of the past. Remember they were branded "gorilas"
because of their brutality and mobs preferred "not to mess with them".
But look at the DR army now, and the Chilean army and the Brazilians so professional and devoted to the civilian government and democratic principles.
Because they were not disbanded altogether and put to pasture as was done in Haiti.
Sure there are nay sayers out there saying that some are corrupt and involved in
drug trafficking, and that is partially true. But the great majority of Dominican military are proud of their occupation and very professional, and respect their civilian bosses.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 10:48 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Speaking of which, have you read Soto Jimenez' "Los Motivos del Machete"? That book is, in my opinion, the best analysis ever made about the nature of our armed forces throughout our history, combing through every military ethos that they have had: the spanish colonial one, the haitian one, the hatero one, the one of the restauradores, the US constabulary, and finally, the one of the current days. He says that the constabulary education that the armed forces under Trujillo would be the chief cause behind the defeat of the constitutionalist forces on 1965, cuz', had they spread out the conflict throughout the country as the restauradores did against the spaniards on 1863-65, the US marines would have been really hard pressed in the task of putting that rebellion down.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 11:04 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
The constitutionalist forces were only defeated because of the massive US intervention in favor of the military junta in San Isidro. It was a matter of days that their surrender was imminent and the morale was low in the regular army and were inept in dealing with opposing forces with the
"pueblo" armed with small arms against tanks, ships and airplanes.
Still the "pueblo" won the battle of the Duarte bridge and it was a matter of time that the Wessin faction would have capitulated and surrendered. They would have ben no need for a country wide uprising as the San Cristobal army battalion was awaiting the developments of the battles in the outskirts of the city.
I was shown photographs of a 7 year old little girl shoving a molotov cocktail under a tank
and the tank bursting into flames. Wars are mostly won by ideals and strong leadership as well
as military theory and resources.
See my posting in "the forum" about General Wessin.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 11:11 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I saw it already, and perhaps that was one of the most impartial analysis that I have ever read about the conflict thus far. It's such a pity that everyone involved were the dupes of the machinations of "ambassador" Tapley Bennett. The realities of the Cold War ended up imposing themselves over any other consideration whatsoever, the gringos being scared to death about the possibility of a "red" Caribbean under cuban leadership.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 11:14 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Soto Jimenez is a great military historian and connoisseur of the Dominican history, specially military history, and a friend.
But regarding the events in the Dominican revolution of 1965 the best story tellers are the ones that were in the front lines, and those are the ones that I have documented the stories from,
as well as eye witnesses from both sides. Including American marines and paratroopers that were part of the invasion force and landed later after constitutionalist victory was imminent.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 11:20 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Generoso said: "Including American marines and paratroopers that were part of the invasion force and landed later after constitutionalist victory was imminent."
Were they posted at Vietnam after their victory over here?
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 11:22 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
I blame the carnage after April 27 TH or so mostly on William Tapley Bennett as he refused to mediate the conflict when asked by Coronel Caamaño, and instead polarized the factions and hardened their positions.
This Georgia cracker that we had as US ambassador was sitting in the floor under his desk at the US embassy crying to then President Johnson that the US embassy was under siege and being bombarded from the air and from the ground, and begging for a quick intervention stating that the communists had taken hold of the "rebel" forces, as they were called.
Instead the real story was that the San Isidro air force planes in their attempts to strafe Radio Santo Domingo Television which was in rebel hands, shot all over the area, some bullets and
rockets coming really close to the US embassy compound, and the navy ships bombarding the national palace blew up a bunch of homes in the surrounding areas.
And of course they might have been some disgruntled civilians armed with small
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 11:24 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
Yes they were. Immediately after the Dominican revolution calmed down the 1 ST Marine division,
82 ND Airborne and 101 ST Airborne were sent to the Vietnam war.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 11:31 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Con't
arms taking pot shots at the US embassy, but nothing near an armed assault as was pictured in his conversation with Lyndon B. Johnson which afterwards authorized the US invasion with the pretext "To save American lives" and stop the spread of communism in the Americas.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 11:33 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'll bet that Bennett was just another southern neoconfederate moron, always thinking himself to any man of colour that came his way. It was a common mistake of the US (and to some extent it continues to be so) to send the most inadequate people to their ambassadorial outposts worldwide. A mistake that people like Sumner Welles, former US State Department envoy to the DR on the wake of the end of the first intervention in 1924, have bitterly complained and remonstrated against, to no avail it seems.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 12:00 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
You are right about Bennett, coming from the deep south and civil war ravaged Atlanta,Georgia, that was burned down by the invading yankee armies, he was probably one of the good old boys network from the south with their corresponding racial bias at that time of civil rights conquests and social unrest (1965) in the states.
His big faux pas was that he was in bed with the right wing military factions that were influenced by the American military attaches posted in the US embassy. Some were responsible for instigating the coup de etat that got rid of Bosch in the first place, and so a return by Bosch was their biggest nightmare, to be stopped by all means possible. More so that Bosch had declared himself a leftist and anti US interests and not a believer in democracy after his downfall.
Bosch was living in San Juan, Puerto Rico and refused to come to the DR alledging that the airplane that was supposed to have transported him "was too small", which was taken as a no.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 12:11 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
So in a way and to be historically correct, the assumption is that Bosch did not fully trust the Americans and feared for his life in transit to DR or when he landed in San Isidro air force base,
because that was held by the San Isidro faction that was biterly oppossed to his return.
Later Coronel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez the brain behind the conspiracy returned from Spain and met with Bosch in PR who sent him in a mission to confer with Coronel Caamaño in the surrounded colonial city and the Gazcue section that were held by the rebel forces.
Coronel Fernandez Dominguez could not wait to get into the actual fighting and was killed while trying to assault the presidential palace held by Dominican army and US forces, along with Illio Capocci an Italian ex-WW II fighter and trainer for the feared navy "frog men" squad.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 12:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I think that the person that won the most with the US intervention to the DR in 1965 would be Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier, because, with democracy vanished from the dominican arena, his regime would remain safely in power without fearing any outside threat, one that the dominican territory posed as a potential beach head for any group against his regime could stage a guerrilla movement from. In fact, the two countries would be on the verge of war on 1963, the incident detonating it being the bombardment of the dominican embassy at Port-Au-Prince by the ton ton macoutes in the search of some rebels who sought refuge over there after a failed assassination attempt against the dictator took place.
From: Dominican Republic
Fascinating, fascinating, you guys should write a book really.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 12:32 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
Excellent analysis and conclusion.
Juan Bosch despised Papa Doc Duvalier more than Trujillo and wanted nothing to do with him.
It was rumored that he encouraged Haitian groups to plan an invasion to rescue Haiti from that brutal dictatorship. More so after the feared torturer and Dominican fugitive from justice Johnny Abbes who was responsible for the criminal torture and assassination of hundreds of
patriots in the "La 40" prison was later advising Papa Doc about his horrible learned trade.
But Papa Doc was no Trujillo and quickly had Abbes murdered shortly afterwards with his complete family including dogs and servants.
In 1963 when the gross violation of Dominican embassy grounds in PAP happened, thousands of enraged civilian Dominicans waited in line in front the military barracks to volunteer against the imminent war with Haiti, that was brewing.
So I agree that Duvalier might also have had an influence in trying to get rid of Bosch, although small.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 12:40 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Without counting the added bonus to his regime that would come with monetary gain that he would get afterwards, with the renewal of the sugar cutter contracts that he had with Trujillo with the Balaguer administration on 1966, which involved his selling his countrymen like cattle to the dominican state and the sugar barons established over here. It also stipulated his assigning some of his macoutes to keep watch on the "slaves" and to keep them in line, that is, to prevent them from becoming a headache to any of the parties involved in the business.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 12:59 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
That is correct.
Balaguer like Trujillo was fevently anti-Haitian and racist as well. But had no qualms about bringing in the cheap and efficient Haitian laborers to work as semi slaves in the sugar cane plantations under terrible squalid conditions, to benefit the private sugar barons and state owned sugar mills, that were a legacy and direct inheritance from Trujillo.
From: Dominican Republic
You gusy are going off topics. Let's talk abou the issue here. How can Dominicans organize to get rid of the Haitian presence? What creative and/or conventional form of removal can we establish do deal with the problem? Is the Santiago example the outset of a final solution or just another irrelevant event? How can we keep it relevant?
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 1:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
By forcing the state and the business people to follow (and in the case of the state to enforce) the existing law to the last letter, Bonahan. The labour codes of the country clearly state that the proportion of the workforce in every place should be 80% dominican-20% foreigner. If the citizenry remains dormant and don't take up arms on this issue to the abovementioned parties, everything will keep remaining business as usual (specially with the people of this admin., which have been the most laid back on the issue among the three stooges that the DR have had on the gov. in the last four decades).
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 1:31 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Bonahan48
Excuse us with got carried away. Are you the new cyber police of comments?
I suggest you read the whole thread and not just the final bits and pieces and you will find many excellent postings and suggestions.
What do YOU suggest for a "final solution" (sounds dreadful). Or your ideas?
I have to go now. Will continue later.
From: Dominican Republic
Obvioiusly this government will not do a thing to stop the bleeding. But I think the other parties are jus the same. We need to contact Manuel Nunez and promote a Nationalist Summit. Discuss the issue and come up with specific steps...
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 1:41 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
The state is the first guilty party that breaks the percentage rule and hires thousands of undocumented Haitians. It is a fact that the Haitians are being exploited and underpaid and they also resent this.
About taking up arms literary we can not do that even as a last resource, for the simple reason that we will be attacked unmercifully by the international community as brutal aggressors.
Now if you mean take up arms in another sense like being proactive then I agree
100%. Now is not the time to lay dormant and be aloof regarding this matter.
Regardless of my previous postings, some of them mostly cynical and humorous I am fervently against using violence against the rag tag, poor and defenseless Haitian populace.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 1:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I don't think that to be a good idea, Bonahan, specially if you have happened to read his book "El Ocaso de la Nación Dominicana" (The Decline of the Dominican Nation). From what I understood in reading it, he's very isolationist on his views. If we're going to set ourselves in the search for a solution to this issue, we have to understand that there's no party with a greater stake on this than us, the dominican people, and that the solution may have to come by playing a more proactive role in helping the haitians to find a solution to their problems, on the haitian country, of course. In other words, the DR have to abandon the ostrich policy that people like Nuñez have sustained all these years.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 1:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Generoso said: "About taking up arms literary we can not do that even as a last resource, for the simple reason that we will be attacked unmercifully by the international community as brutal aggressors. Now if you mean take up arms in another sense like being proactive then I agree 100%."
What I meant with that, general, was to take the battle to the gov. and business sectors by making them more accountable for their actions. Only by taking a no-prisoners stand on the corruption issue we'll able to make a stride in the resolution of this issue, and many others that are plaguing our country right now.
From: Dominican Republic
Haitians are turning DR into a hyphaneted society, a binacional entity....I personally started calling myself a FORMER DOMINICAN. Our identity was born as a rejection of Haiti, if such a fact turns irrelevant what is the purpose of calling ourselve Dominicans? This is the moment of truth, we either separte at any cost or simply renounce our right to an exclusive identity. TO TAKE ARMS IS ALWAYS AN OPTION, A LAST RESULT BUT A KEY ONE. The nation that denies the possibility of taking arms does not deserve to exist.
From: Dominican Republic
Jajaja. With all due respect, but you arguments are extremely funny. First of all, we have not been able to solve our problems, what make you think we can solve Haiti's? Second, isolationism is not what Nunez talks about.. I used to be critical until I began reexamining the issue. Read his work carefully, it strongly nationalist, exaclty what we need. THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN GAIN FROM CLOSER TIES WITH HAITI. In the end, they will remain Haitians and will going to be more divided than ever.
Written by: generoso, 6 Feb 2009 2:04 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
Easy to say but hard to do.
What we need is a huge apolitical movement much like Union Civica Nacional or the Movimiento Revolucionario 14 de Junio in the immediate aftermath of the Trujillo assassination, that polarized the country and gave the puppet regime of Balaguer ultimatums to change or resign.
Peaceful mass demonstrations are needed and warranted in this occasion.
Do the Dominican people have the will to do that? Will they back such a movement?
Remember the old leaders are dead and gone, and there are no new ones with the ability to stir the masses and motivate the government into taking any sort of action.
New and uncompromised leaders will have to emerge to rescue us from being hostage to the political piñatas that we are witnessing.
From: Dominican Republic
My point is that every possible option must be put on the table, nothing should be ignore. We must try peaceful corrections but if that does not work, then all hell should break loose. Keep in mind we are talking about the essence of what we are...If some Dominicans act cowardly and decide not to participate in a movement then let them redefine who they are...But we need to search for an orthodoxy. Let us not fear the international community...We can retake our country and shape its future. I would not call myself Trujillista, but at this point we need to use radical nationalism if we are to save DR...No compromise at this point. We cannot negotiate from of disadvantaged position, put pressure, force the return to Haiti, then we talk about compromise...Patria o muerte...
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 2:27 PM
From: United States
Well, well, I read the article and the posts as well. This is my opinion: Imagine a neighborhood that lost revenues from 3,000 residents. These Haitians buy food, clothing, they pay rent, etc...
These Haitians do the jobs that the Dominicans won't do. The Southern Santiago Province residents will suffer not just a recession but a depression. The only good thing here is that the Haitians were not mistreated. What Dominicans should know, DR is under the microscope and being monitored by international Human Rights organizations.
I have two questions: 1) How many of these folks are Haitian-Dominicans born in DR?
2) What happened to the belongings of these people?
Imagine here in the U.S. if the government asks all illegal Dominican immigrants to pack and leave the neighborhood of Washington Heights right away. They always show on TV in the U.S. that most crimes in that area are committed by Dominican immigrants.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
bonahan48 i'm with you my brother
actions speak louder than words.
Let me know when S**t hit the fan and Talking is no longer usefull .
I , like the great general Antonio Duvergé Dubal will rise from the ranks of the uneducated
to save my country from the invaders.
long live The Republic, Que viva la Dominicanidad.
Patria O muerte
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 2:43 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 said: "What Dominicans should know, DR is under the microscope and being monitored by international Human Rights organizations."
So what? Should we be trembling because of this? Do they have an army to enforce their BS views? What about the other countries in the world that are committing more serious human rights violations than us? Puh-lease, save us the BS for once. Don't you ever tire of being repeating yourself so much as a broken disc?
From: Dominican Republic
Well, if legalize drugs and prostitute our women, and open DR to all the vices the human brain can create I bet you can make a lot of money too.. YOu see, Cruz666 you economic determinism makes no sense. But assume for a moment it does, then are struggle to clean DR of Haitian presence is even more meaniningful for its not money but love of our identity that drives the effort.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 2:45 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
There is something you totally forget. You say " Let us not fear the international community...We can retake our country and shape its future". That's the most callous, naive, puerile and careless statement that can bring DR to its knees if implemented. Remember South Africa. What makes it worse, DR relies heavily on tourism, and DR is a member of the United Nations. Therefore, DR has to abide by international laws and rules. The reason why the pressure hasn't come harder on DR is because the outside world sees DR as a black country with different shades. If DR adopts your view, DR's economy will be completely destroyed. Imagine if the international community puts an embargo on DR's products and tourists stop visiting DR, then what will happen? Think my friend. We are living in an interdependent world. Chill out my friend.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, I see that you are good at repeating what you hear. You paint Dominicans as lazy indivivduals who are just willing to do certain jobs and I have to laugh because Dominicans do all types of economic activities in DR and outside. The idea that Haitians do the jobs Dominicans reject is not only stupid but dangerous. It marginalizes Dominicans in their own territory. A few years ago, we had a TV ad in which Juan L. Guerra said that DR was the only place where a Dominican was not a foreigner...However, that is changing, we are turning into a binational society in which poor foreigners have more opportunities. Do you remeber the ad by Juan L. Guerra, "esta es la tierra donde nunca seremos extranjeros." Not anymore. Now, Haitians have divided us while Haiti is 100% for Haitians.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 2:52 PM
From: United States
old_school_trinitario,
I invite you to read the post that I just addressed to Bonahan48.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
Haitians will not stop crossing unless a radical measure is adopted...The reason why we did not see many Haitians in DR during the last 40 yrs was due to the fact that Trujillo send a clear messege. We can do the thing by other means...Mass deportation under humane conditions is doable is possible the US practices on a daily basis. Let start now that we can avoid a genocide. Tourism, yes,,, it might be hurt, but I prefer that to loose our identity forever. Besides, the more construction and tourism we get the more unequal our society becomes. I prefer less economic growth, more equality and a better sense of who we are...Patria o muerte
From: Dominican Republic
Well, if you are willing to allow our destruction for economic gain shame on you. Listen, we don't need a genocide...We just remove the cancer through peaceful means. If we fail to do it now, it will happen but with a violence nobody will be able to control. This is building by the hour, to choose to ignore will only make the downfall more dramatic...
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 2:57 PM
From: United States
CRISIS666
What about the Human Rights Organization monitoring human rights abuses in Haiti
What about Human Rights investigating how come a nation that receives billions of dollars in aid is been forced to eat mud
How many Haitians have died, been maimed,been forced to relocated,been exiled,been starved to death ,been jailed under Cedras,Latortue,and the others as_ holes that have pillaged the country.
What about human rights visiting Cite Soleil and asking the stinking elite how can they have people living in these conditions while they are wasting billions of aid money on villas in France, Florida, Dominican Republic.
You belong to the same group of parasites that use the PAS's that have forced Haitians to leave Haiti to endure humiliations and abuses in other countries.
Pa kononen yo(We do not know them )
Pa fot nou (it is not aour fault)
Pa responsa (We are no resposable)
Pa kab separe( We can not share)
Blame the Dominicans
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 3:00 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What about the miserable situation of the human rights on HAITI, Cruz666? Are they not worth your attention or your mentioning? You should sign by the motto "The Voice of Madness", or "The Mouse that Roared".
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, you showed me great ignorance when it comes to the concept of economic systems. DR's will not be destroyed as you suggest. It will adjust, money will be make, probably even more after mass deportation. Your logic is faulty because those international interest have much to gain for continued investment in tourism. Investors will allow fortunes to disappear just because Dominicans apply their immigration laws. You arguments continue to fall on the cheap simplicity side... Patria o muerte.
From: Dominican Republic
The NGOs need to stop, they have lost credibility all over. This is a good time to pull out of the International Court (The US never bought such a stupid idea) and become more selective in our diplomatic agenda. We cannot allow politicians run our foreign policy. This should be the realm of nationalists...They name Ruben Silie, an enemy of the Dominican people as Ambassador to Haiti, does that make sense???????? jajaja
Este Leonel tienes unos ovarios de tamano de la catedral...
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 3:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Could it be that for Cruz666 and his ilk the haitians only have human rights once they cross the border?
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 3:04 PM
From: United States
Why can't you guys have your own forum so you can blame the ones pillaging Haiti resources ?
Hell no, it is safer to come here and pass the blame.
It is safer to come and make the Dominicans feel guity hoping they will continue to accept the illegal invasion of their country.
In the mean time you can continue to steal and turn Haiti into hell.
As you can see the Dominicans are getting smarter and can your game.
This is why they have asked Haitians to leave quietly. without violence. without human rights abuses.
You can take your human rights activists with you and have them monitor where the real abuses of Haitians are taking place.
CITE SOLEIL not in Santiago
Go away , just go away
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 3:08 PM
From: United States
Crisis666
These are not Dominicans challenging you, these are Haitians Natif Natal telling you to go back to those who have sent and tell them that we understand their game.
Dominicans are not reponsable to feed Haitians to shelter them,to employ them.
Tell your filthy elite to start sharing some of the aid money that have have been wasting
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 3:13 PM
From: United States
The Dominicans have shared whatever thay had with Haitians
Things are tough for them also.
Tell those parasites in power stealing the aid money that theDominican',s faucet is shut off.
Crisis666 ,go back to the Haitian hell to serve Lucifer ( AKA 666)
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 3:13 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
I agree with one thing that there must be measures in place to secure DR borders. But DR can not play blind to the mistreatment of Haitian immigrants.
You say "Haitians have divided us while Haiti is 100% for Haitians.". In this chat room, we spend more time talking about what divides us rather than accentuating our commonality. Ex-president of Haiti Jean-Bertrand Aristide was right. DR and Haiti are a bird with two wings. There are also good and positive stories between the two countries. There is a lot of intermarriages between Haitians and Dominicans here in the U.S., in Haiti and in DR as well. Most Dominicans and Haitians share the same blood line. Now we have two choices: We can proceed with a plan "a la Hitler" or "a la South Africa", or we can learn how to live like brothers and sisters.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 3:16 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 + WhySmitty + The Mouse that Roared + (Whining, Complaining) x 2 = Hypocrisy without bounds.
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666,,, Your continue to amaze me...Please, tell one about cowboys and princesses... Your appeasement will work only when DR gets rid of the undesireables. The fact that both Haitians and Dominicans use toilets does not give them the right to change our national character...We wer born as a rejection of Haiti and things Haitians, DO NOT FORGET...We need to emphasize our difference, those are the things that make us special...In the absence of nationalism were are nothing. Haitians are Haitians, DOminicans Dominicans...Patria o Muerte.... No Compromise...
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666,,,Are you Dominican?
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 3:28 PM
From: United States
Crisis666, go eat dog food
Go worship the devil 666
This forum is not for Dominicans bashing
Get your own forum, name it HaitiMisery.Today
Then you can blame the Dominicans ,the Canadians , the French, the American except the Haitians for all Haiti.s misery including mud eating
Buzz off to your evil empire 666
Here in this forum we are tring to find a solution that is civil and human for the emotional and finatial stress that Haitians have caused to Dominicans by coming illegally to their country
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 3:30 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48
heshe is a devil worshipper .Can t you tell by hisher nick 666
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 3:31 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Hey such a civilize debate, great posting... Lat , I have a question for you , the americans started the immigration to DR as far the Haitian cane cutters are concerned in the early 40's, and now what happened to that wave of Haitian immigrants back then, did they get that diluted in the DR population.
Is the Haitians migrations is a cause concerned by the Government and the population ? so far the Leonel have not taken any negative steps toward the Haitians in DR that would have resulted in mass deportation ? can you explain why ?
Bohanan48 some of your concerns are valid because the migration is one way and not reciprocal to offset the balance on each side. however with respect to losing your identities it's a long shot and a strech.
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 3:31 PM
From: United States
Read : financial stress
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 3:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
No, Bonahan, he's only a miserable henchman from Aristide (a group that are collectively called "the chimeres") whose only occupation is to blame others for their own country's misfortunes, while beating and hacking to death any dissent in the process.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 3:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
antonioj asked: "Hey such a civilize debate, great posting... Lat , I have a question for you , the americans started the immigration to DR as far the Haitian cane cutters are concerned in the early 40's, and now what happened to that wave of haitian immigrants back then did they get that diluted in the Dr population."
No antonio, they weren't granted the chance of mingling with the rest of the population by the fact that Trujillo took special pains in deporting them every time that the cultivation period ended, with military caravans and all. At the beginning of the cultivation period, he would sent another military caravan to look for them on the border towns (with previous arrangement with the haitian authorities of course). The bateyes will came into existence during the Balaguer's admin., when the authorities would be so occupied in robbing the country dry that they didn't care if the haitians remained on the territory or not, provided they didn't engage in "communism".
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 3:38 PM
From: United States
Guys, I see how passionate you are in this debate. For your knowledge, I am much harsher on the Haitian government and some Haitian thugs as well. I am the #1 critic of Cedras, Papa Doc, Baby Doc, LaTortue, Michel Francois, Chamblain, Toto Constant and the rest of the gang. I am even critical of Preval, the current Haitian president.
I am against human rights abuses of any form and shape. Whether it's done to Haitians, Dominicans or any other national of another country.
I reject the notion that DR is helping the Haitians for the sake of helping. On the contrary, DR benefits and enriches itself tremendously from the Haitians hard labor. Haitians are a source of wealth for DR.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz66 Don't defend us, we don't need it...Help us prevent abuse by defending Haitians' right to return home...Haiti is for Haiti, DR for real Dominicans. Remove them and we'll have peace...Got it!
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, "DR benefits and enriches itself tremendously from the Haitians hard labor. Haitians are a source of wealth for DR. "
This proves what an ungrateful bastard you are...Tell that to an unemployed Dominican who used to work in the construction indutry? My house was built by Domincians 20 yrs ago. Now all those workers can hardly feed their family. What makes a Haitian mouth more human than a Dominican? Explain.
ONLY A FEW WEALTHY DOMINICANS BENEFIT FROM CHEAP LABOR...IT'S NO FAIR FOR MOST OF US...CAN YOU ADMIT TO THAT?
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
people don waste your time responding to the victim666
the man views gives you the answer as to why Haiti is in such a deplorable state today.
He will never accept the fact that his country is destroyed because of people like him have giving up on his mother land long time ago, he will never reconized the right of Dominicanz to defend their cultural , social fabric and national identity against any outside invaders.
This concepts are aliens to this man and millions like him because playing the victims and commanding pity from everyone is bolted to his DNA.
There is no pride on this sujeto.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 3:59 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48, I am not Dominican. I am Haitian-American. I am proud of my Haitian heritage. Haitians saved the U.S. Revolution in Savannah, Georgia in 1779. Haitians saved a lot of other countries's revolutions and help them to gain their independence.
I understand that there is a fear in Dominicans. Maybe it's a rational fear.
I have a question for "etiennc". Are you Haitian?, Dominican? or a self-hated individual?
For some reason, Bonahan48 sticks to a position, that I don't agree with, but you are a confusing person. Dear etiennc, Tell me about yourself.
Guys, can you be civil? Once you start cursing and calling names, you lose all your respect. Can you make a valid point without cursing? Can you advance a discussion without losing your cool? Who is the moderator in this room?
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
I'll give up the cursing. But you got to understand how insulting your arguments are...
I understand where you coming from and I respect your concern for your people. But Haiti is not a Dominican problem. I only want to maintain my culture clear of a Haitian presence...I respect human righst but also the law.. Haitian residing illegally in DR is not acceptable and the solution is to excute the right to return, you should help us avoid a genocide...A few years from now we'll read about the second corte, let's prevent that...Dominicans don't go to Haiti to change anything, we don't force anyone to come to the East...I was to respect Haitians, but not anyomore. I just want them to get the hell out. To hell with brotherhood. In this life I was destined to be Dominican and I will put my life at risk if necessary.... Patria o muerte.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 4:18 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48 says: "ONLY A FEW WEALTHY DOMINICANS BENEFIT FROM CHEAP LABOR...IT'S NO FAIR FOR MOST OF US...CAN YOU ADMIT TO THAT?"
Dear Bonahan48,
"Only a few wealthy Dominicans", but they are Dominicans too and they are powerful. They represent the Dominican government, the Dominican private sector, the Dominican elite.
If you understand economy, it's the concept of "supply and demand". In DR there is a great demand for Haitian Labor. Haitian people are hard-working, strong and proud people. What the DR government should do, is regulate the cheap labor and increase the minimun wage so Dominicans can compete with Haitians. It's like here in the U.S. when American peole criticize Mexican immigtrants who work about 16 hours a day and below the minimum wage, I tell them: would you do their jobs? You see, this is a double edged sword.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 4:20 PM
From: Canada, home safe
It's interesting to see the most of the advocate for the deportation of Haitians are in foreign soil themselve, right now there are no rules of law, if there is one is being ignored, I chalenge you to have the elite take the same steps as they brotherman did in santiago, mass deportation without a solution is not the answer.
Bonahan48, I would disagree Haitians are not your natural ennemies, your point of view is selfish and fail to understand the implication of our mutual relation on the global front.
1.Dominicans using their strenght and not playing fair with regard to market reciprocity in several front
2. Excessive Dumping of Dominican products
What are you proposing ? what does your government is doing ? beside mass deportation and border closing which we know is not feasible at best an utopia.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 4:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 said: "Guys, can you be civil? Once you start cursing and calling names, you lose all your respect. Can you make a valid point without cursing? Can you advance a discussion without losing your cool? Who is the moderator in this room?"
What's there to discuss? that your being an haitian-american (and Aristide supporter to boot) will always be in the way to your seeing the rationality behind our POV? Or that for it you will never be able to recognize that the only solution to your problems lies in growing some balls and tackling your country's problems head on? That you'll never cease to denounce the dominican people, no matter how many things we do to give succour to your brethen, because, as ettienc have marvelly put, you belong to the part of the diaspora that he calls the "PA crowd", and which motto is: Pa kononen yo(We do not know them ); Pa fot nou (it is not our fault); Pa responsa (We are not responsible); Pa kab separe( We can not share); Blame the Dominicans
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 4:25 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) Don't worry, Smitty, we understand your POV quite perfectly, and will oppose it accordingly.
From: Dominican Republic
Besides, Haitians in the construction sector and farming represent less than 250000 migrants. I don't mind if some of them stay in the DR. But the rest, 1.5 million must go back. Haitian borns in DR included. You are not welcomed. Entiendes?
From: Dominican Republic
You're telling me that Dominican labor is subhuman. Haitian labor is better... According to you demand and supply take place in a vacuum...Supply and demand. Let us apply the concept...You send all Haitian back to Haiti, increase the labor supply there and make the Haitian labor market more competitive for investors.. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU TALKING TO? HIGH SCHOOL KIDS? The theory of supply an demand are more nuance that what you suggest...By the way, I would not talk about classical economic principles at a time when such views are questionable. I guess you are a convenience economics...Now tell us about those displaced by the "more demanded labor." We make them suffer just because the neighbors are hungry. You are such a genius...Deserve an oscar.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 4:38 PM
From: United States
Lautaro,
Please, don't quote etiennc. Take some clues from antonioj instead.
Who can answer these questions? Guys, why do you think drug trafficking exists? Why do you think prostitution exists? why do you think illegal immigrants exist? Don't you think it's just because there is a demand for these services? Don't you think those who are supposed to enforce the law benefit from these activities? How many government officials have been implicated in drug trafficking, prostitutions or taking bribes from illegal immigrants crossing the borders?
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 4:43 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Bonahan48= aka arkatype I will not spend more time having a cordial back and forth intellectual argument with you. and all power to you and your point of view, let's see how far you get with that attitude.
One thing arka can you provide us the information that back up your claim of 2 millions haitians
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 4:58 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 said: "Lautaro,
Please, don't quote etiennc. Take some clues from antonioj instead.
Who can answer these questions? Guys, why do you think drug trafficking exists? Why do you think prostitution exists? why do you think illegal immigrants exist? Don't you think it's just because there is a demand for these services? Don't you think those who are supposed to enforce the law benefit from these activities? How many government officials have been implicated in drug trafficking, prostitutions or taking bribes from illegal immigrants crossing the borders?"
Yes, but one thing is recognizing the existence of these maladies and the market laws behind them, and another different thing is to lie, generalize and defame as you have been doing, implying that dominicans are incapable of realizing the tasks that are now being done by the haitians, when it's a common knowledge that the haitian labour on the DR expanded its areas of influence only at the current decade.
From: Cuba, it is a secret the censors are looking for me
tonyj still shoveling up there....Go Leafs
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 5:03 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
If your government is pro-Haitian and useless, there is nothing I can do. Maybe if you were in their position, you would have seen the light also. Your government knows how beneficial Haitians are to DR economy.
I went to DR a couple of years ago and I was surprised to see the Haitian artists (Sculptor/painter) in DR who have painted beautiful landscapes of Haiti with the Citadelle (one of the world's marvels) and the art gallery wrote on the painting "Dominican Republic".
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 5:16 PM
From: United States
Lautaro,
Your government likes things the way they are now. The DR government is part of the status quo. The business sector is in bed with the DR government; therefore, they will always preserve the cheap Haitian labor. On one hand they will tell you that illegal immigration is a bad thing, but privately they will do nothing.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
Yes, Haitians provide the cheap labor corrup politicians' associates use to build illegally obtaine government contracts. The cheaper the labor the more politicians and the construction companies keep for themselves. I SEE THE LIGHT...That way the exploite the Dominican taxapyer while marginalize poor Dominicans making them more vulnerable to control by political parties.
Diablo, the perfect proposition. Rob the taxpayer, use illegal labor, marginalized the poor and them use them to accumulate more wealth. Enjoy it while it last, this is going to stop one day.
You shoud denounce the Art Gallery for appropiating your glory. Ask the average Dominican how much they care about Haitian symbols and they will tell you that the last time they ate a citadell they ended up in the hospital...To me the Citadell is a symbol of oppression, why are you so proud of that?
Written by: Lautaro, 6 Feb 2009 5:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 said: "Lautaro,
Your goverment likes things the way they are now. The DR government is part of the status quo. The business sector is in bed with the DR goverment; therefore, they will always preserve the cheap Haitian labor. On one hand they will tell you that illegal immigtation is a bad thing, but privately they will do nothing."
You don't have to tell it twice. I have always considered them part of the problem, although, judging by the recent reaction of the population, I think that their profitting time is about to run up. Somehow I don't think that the other provinces would stand idle if they see that the santiagueros keep up their word of maintaining their communities inmigrant-free. The dominican populace is not prone to violent outbursts as their western counterparts, but when they do explode, woe to the people that caused it, cuz' a quick death will be a thousand times preferable than falling into their wrathful hands.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 5:29 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
"The Citadelle" keeps the French away (The Napoleonic troops). They were coming back to re-enslave the entire island. The Haitians repelled them with the construction of the Citadelle fortress. As a result, both sides of the island remain free until today.
I have a feeling that you would like to launch a revolution against your government and the Haitian immigrants. Who are you? "Toussaint Louverture"? "Dessalines"?
Can you be more rational instead of being so angry?
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 5:30 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: gouletcolonial, 6 Feb 2009 5:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Colonial Zone Isabela la Catolica [formerly] Calle Comercio
tonyj still shoveling up there....Go Leafs"
hey GC, I have not heard you... no the snow has melted away go steelers , go leafs
From: Dominican Republic
This is the third time you call me irrational. Tha's Ok. You can call me whatever you want. The built of the Citadelle and the people who occupied it were not better that the French. Do you think of Christophe as if he was Saint?
From: Dominican Republic
History Lessons
1. The wars of independence both in Haiti and DR were HUGE STUDIP MISTAKE. Slavery was about to die out and those colonies that remain attached to an European center have developed compared to Haiti and DR that remain proud of a big mistake and hungry.
2. The Dominican government is corrupt and needs to be replaced a nationalist coalition with a neo-duartiano approach.
3. The Citadelle served no purpose. You know that.
4. Yes, I willing to launch a revolution to clean and correct wrong policies.
5. I will calm down when DR becomes Haitian free.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 7:06 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
I never called you irrational. I said "Can you be more rational?." There is a huge difference.
You want to fight a coalition of DR government + the Haitians. Can you defeat this powerful coalition? Your revolution will create your nightmare "a reunification" of your government and the Haitians. When Leonel was living in the U.S., he used to go to school at Brandies High School with the Haitians. You can see how passive Leonel is with the Haitian immigrants in DR. You are in a category all by yourself. You have to rethink your strategy.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 8:20 PM
From: United States
crisis666 is here arguing like we hold the key to Haiti's salvation.
crisis666 is here arguing with Dominicans like they hold the key to Haiti's salvation
Like Leionel Fernandez hols the key to Haiti's salvation.
Everybody holds the key to Haiti's Slavationd except the stiking elite and the corrupoted politiciasn (leeches)that are now in Miami on shopping spree or spending their week ends in their mansions in the Dominican Republic
Yep keep looking outside Haiti for Haiti salvation yep keep looking !
yep crisis 666 peep arguing with Lautaro. with me,with Antonioj,with Bonahan48 like we can help Haiti.
Kepp making fun of us, keep typing crap
One thing you need to remember that those who has sent you to distract us will not have time to scape the Armageddon.
The Haitian people will rise up and will solve Haiti problems when they are really desperate and when all the hunger esrape routes like the RD are closed
Armageddon will be televised for you to see it
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 8:25 PM
From: United States
Yep keep it up ,keep antagonizing us
Armageddon will be televised.
So much a people can take.
You can fool some of the people sometimes , but you can not fool all the people all the time
Fool me once I am dumb fool me twice your butt gets burned
From: Dominican Republic
You're so right ettiennc. Listen, I just came to this website, brother, and knowing there's people like you and Lautaro is just a breath of fresh air. Sometimes I think we've lost our country. When you drive and every corner and I see a Haitian my souls falls into the abyss. But we can't give up. I just found out that Luis Julian Perez (a good nationalist) is in critical health condition. We owe it to people like him to save our culture. He always spoke about this illegal migration that changes our physical, moral and national character. We need to promote our values and have a street name after Don Luis Julian. Leonel betrayed the country only for political expidiency. The worst part is Danilo Medina in a recent interview took the same position.
Ettiennc, thanks for keeping the hope alive. You are an example to our youth. This summer I'm organizing a Nationalist Movement in the NorthEast. I beg you to keep fighting. If we don't fight for our country, who will?
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, my position is simple. NO HAITIAN IN DR, PEACE IN THE ISLAND...WE are willing to accept the return of every Dominican (real ones) who live in the West. We take them. We can trade and support each other, but Haitians in Haiti and Dominicans in DR. I think is a simple and beautiful ideal. I don't undestand why some people get upset. It's simple.
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
Well if this is true, I am glad there was not blood shed and I think that the Haitians left because the economy is bad, we even have Cubans retuning to Cuba because the jobs are so bad.
Personally, I am starting to feel that Dominicans are very lazy.
Dominican must also under stand that the Haitian illegal are a tool for the rich and agriculture production of D.R.
They must also understand that the people no matter what race, greed or religion will always try to survive. Regardless of your feeling and opinions which means nothing to their hunger.
Why I feel Dominicans are lazy, because they always look for the quick and easy buck.
For example: Who does hair braiding on the beach?
How much do they charge?
How many can they do in a week?
What is the average salary for a Dominican with out a Higher education?
Why haven’t I seen more Dominican doing what seems menial but is very productive?
From: United States
chillaxin21-Who do you think did all the menial jobs before the Haitians came and invaded?
GEN, Lautauro, GC, POPO, etiennc, old trini, and anybody else-please set this chillaxin21 guy straight. I don't have the time to get into it today.
By the way are you Dominican? Cause if you are, then you must be a lazy bum too.
From: Dominican Republic
Chillaxin201, it seems that you need some schooling yourself. Lazy Domincians?????? This is like an essential part of a Haitian's speech. Let me get it. Ok I see the light. This is the evidence that justifies the invasion. Don't worry, we'll take of that. We gonna make Dominicans work and push all your Haitian friends to the border...Lazy????? We gonna get busy...
From: Dominican Republic
cuanta falta hace el jefe?
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 9:48 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48, You broached upon a subject in one of your earlier posts when you intimated that illegal Haitians born on Dominican soil should not be entitled to Dominican citizenship. There is currently a far right wing position which is gaining momentum that children born to illegal immigrants in the US not be entitled to US citizenship. Do you agree with that position in the case of DR policy as well as US policy? It's a very interesting issue that will be debated here in the states with more intensity, especially in the current economic climate, since you originated the idea, I respectfully ask your opinion?
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 9:55 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Etiennc you make some valid point and remark however let me point to you the politics of appeasement does not work and should never be contemplated just to satisfy a few deranged mind.
From: Dominican Republic
Good try devin11. Different scenerios, different laws. The attempted analogy does not apply. The US has the right -as a historically shortage labor market- to decide wether they want the jus solis or not... We would have prefered to have it, but Haitians have proven to be a difficult bunch. Not only they displace poor Dominicans from their jobs but they also pretend that we legalize and take responsibilities for their kids. You legalize those Haitians and you acquire the legal responsibilities to provide them with basic services. Why would Dominicans go for that? Let give you a summary of history. Haitians make the error of becoming independent, then several times invade an innocent never, then the become a failed state and finally decide to ship their poor to someone's who is struggling to solve his own problems. We got nothing to do with Haiti. Those kids are not Dominican. Let Haitians find their way out. We should not enable more irresponsibility and misgovernment. Patria
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 10:13 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48, I wasn't trying anything, unless you think I possess the power to have made you reference the issue in your earlier post. I think the issues are exactly the same, by granting citizenship to children of illegals the US is being asked to do exactly what you wish your government not to be responsible for, do illegals in the US not displace American's of jobs? Why should the US go for that? I believe that fairness can be measured through reciprocity, the countries who exercise their inalienable right not grant jus soli to the children of illegals should also have that right revocated on foreign soil. All things being equal, you get what you give.
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 10:18 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48 & Co,
How old are you guys? 2 years old? I read your posts and you guys just don't make sense. You are saying unrealistic and unattainable things. I can even say that you are babbling now. chillaxin201 has a good point. As I am typing this, I have a Dominican friend of mine here with me right now and she agrees with chillaxin201 100 percent.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
The US invaded DR twice. The migration wave began with the Marines who brought the first poor Dominicans to the East cost. What Juan Gonzalez called Havest of Empire. The same can't be say about Haiti and DR. Dominicans never invaded Haiti. You argument about reciprocity makes no sense. When Americans began shipping Haitians to DR, they never asked for our approval. Then corrupt Dominicans politicans and soldiers joined the game. They continue bringing Haitians and use the Dominican taxpayers' money to support the sugar industry and the importing of braceros just to steal more wealth. Dominicans have always lost when it comes to a Haitian presence in DR. Look at how much money the industry gave to the public treausure. None. The industry run deficit in the post Trujillo era. Even the Dominican products sold in Haiti are subsidized by the Dominican taxpayer. They invade us and we got to pay the bill. How sweet, nice deal! I love the US, but Americans share the blame.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 10:24 PM
From: United States
Cruz666, How can a statement that invokes a ridiculous and condescending blanket remark such as "Dominicans are lazy" be taken seriously, really? I'm sure that Dominican's would do those jobs if they were offered fair wages to do them. Who do you think those jobs were done before the prohibitively cheaper labor was available?
From: United States
do illegals in the US not displace American's of jobs? An affirmative, No they do not !!!!
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666
I am a mature, angry Dominican who is sick and tired of the bs you guys promote online. I used to be a moderate but I changed my position because I don't see Haitians doing anything to correct the situation. I understood that you guys have no choice but to keep sending them to DR. But I don't like a Hiatian presence in DR, the same way I dislike the presence of Colombians. But when I read about the accussations against DR I can't not help it. I am passionate about DR, that's the only place I could conceive as home. A rejection of Haiti gave birth to my identity and now foreigners wants us to take responsibility for a problem Haitians created for themselves.
If what I sound inmature to you I suggest that you go back and read again. There is a logic to my argument. Yes, maybe an angry one. But the point is that we need to raise our voice and force the reversal of what we perceive as a threat to our culture. I'll be happy if the US brings DR Haitians to Miami. Please, do it.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 10:35 PM
From: United States
I cannot argue that American as well as Canada and France do not share a responsibility for the current economic and political situation in Haiti. I am making the point of citizenship rights which should not be used only to benefit the interest of one nation as they then revoke that same benefit to someone else.
Written by: etiennc, 6 Feb 2009 10:39 PM
From: United States
crisis666 will get up tomorrow typing the same old crap using the same fingers he had stuck in his butt nothing wil change
Haitians will still be eating mud, the stinking elite will still be stealing and wasting charity money.
Haitians will still be crawling back in the corver of the night into Dominican Republic to be forced back to Haiti in day light
crisis 666 will have a good laugh he will stiil stick his fingers back in his butt , he will smell them to make sure they stink enough to type more crap and you guys will respond to him . The whole excercise in futility wii start all over again.
Fortunately we have teleodor and I can smell the foul odor of s... coming from crisis666 s posts.
Enjoy the smell guys . I am going out side to breath to some fresh again
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 10:40 PM
From: United States
Guillermone, So the people in the US that complain about losing their jobs through a lower paid illegal workforce are just making that up? Please know that I believe that the illegal workforce in the US can be directly attributed to the economic booms of the 80's and 90's and further. At the same time many American workers in construction, restaurant and the service industry were indeed displaced by illegals that now do those jobs for much, much less.
From: Dominican Republic
The US has a right to decide on citenzenship. They have their own reality and should take into account its best economic and cultural interests.
DR has the right to do the same. Our problem is the presence of the poorest country in the hemisphere and we must act accordingly.
I believe in self-determination. The current mistaken view that tries to force a particular agenda on human rights will produce the genocides of the future. The stuff that we saw in Rwanda was only the preview of a more chaotic world produce by a ill-informed understanding of human rights.
Some of you, probably well-intended, are creating a climate of hate the fire of which has obviously been lit. Be careful, don't turn people into practioners of hatred. Live, respect and let live...
Again, the analogy is faulty... Some of you sound like "well, I don't have a candy, therefore nobody should get one."
From: Dominican Republic
Illegal migration, even in the US, lowers wages. In a market with labor shortage this is actually a good thing since it makes the economy more competitive. However, in a place like DR, with historical high unemployment, illegal migration is a crime because the displaced workers won't find jobs (DR has double digit unemployment).
So, Mexicans in US, kind of a problem, not that serious. Haitians in the US, HUGE PROBLEM. Not only in economic terms but for the history between the two sides. Mexicans, in the other hand were the victims of American imperialism.
Again, why do some people in this site think we Dominican are stupid? They keep bringing a faulty analogy to justify the unjustifiable.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 10:58 PM
From: United States
Illegal immigration in the US is not that serious by your conveniently misplaced standards. In Texas alone for the fiscal year of 2007 the state spent 600 million in uncompensated medical care to illegals, 700 million in Health and Human Services for illegal immigrants, 11.5 million to shelter illegals in family violence programs, and 80 million in emergency medicaid payments. If that is "not that serious," then you write the check.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:02 PM
From: United States
As I have previously stated, the economies of the DR and Haiti are inextricably connected. The more the DR prospers economically the more Haitians will immigrate to the DR. If the DR wants to maintain it's cultural and social identities, they will have to painfully address the issues of how to help strengthen the economic prosperity of Haiti. While it is patently unfair for the DR to assume this responsibility, it will take unfortunate and difficult sacrifices to maintain the cultural attributes. Extreme measures will not work and will be met with sanctions and financial retributions from the outside world communities that will only make the current economic maladies even worse. The Dominican Government should make it's top focal issue, pressuring the Western communities to help reverse the economic hardships in Haiti that threaten the cultural stability of the DR.
From: Dominican Republic
But, you showed only one side of the fiscal analysis. You see you can find studies that shows the contribution of illegal to the economy of Texas. Don't forget the labor shortage v. high unemployment dichotomy...
Now illegal immgration in the US (Harvest of Empire), Americans should stop illegal migration and deal with their problem as they see it best. I know that blacks and other latinos are hurt by the situation, but again not my problem.
I will respect any decision taken by Americans. They are a soverign nation and nobody should tell them what to do...
I only expect the same in return..
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:11 PM
From: United States
I respect the right of any nation to set the parameters for their immigration policies and enforcement just as you are correct and unequivocally in the right to ask for. I just don't want to hear any complaint's or criticisms when those same policies are implemented or enforced against anyone else. You should then happily accept the same in return.
From: Dominican Republic
Devin, the problem is the following. Why should other countries solve Haiti's problem? They refuSe to help and Dominicans have been pushing for this for the longest without results... Soft measures led to an invasion by illegal migrants. So, what options do we have to sit down and just look how DR becomes haitianized. ARE YOU SERIOUS? When Trujillo put a stop to it, it worked..Balaguer maintain a strong position and the number of Haitians remained under control.
Then Leonel opened up and hell broke loose...The flow bacame permanent because we allowed it. This has to be reversed, is possible, is doable and is the only choice we have....No compromise until Haitian illegal are deported... Common sense to a simple problem.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:18 PM
From: United States
I am pro immigration legal or otherwise but there is no comparative analysis that can be made by anyone that can show a cost benefit to counteract the billions and billions of dollars to the US taxpayer. The Texas fiscal analysis does not even take into consideration education and all the other resources made available to illegal immigrants in the US. If those numbers are added to the analysis it would dwarf the numbers already presented.
From: Dominican Republic
Devin, are you talking about? Dominicans are deported on a daily basis. The country has a crisis with the number of deportees the US send us. But, they are DOminicans. When did we complain? Never, a Domincian good or bad is our problem. I hope you Haitians take the same approach....
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 11:19 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
For the good deeds that Haitians had done for humanity, they should have had a universal passport. I will agree with one thing that, Haitians feel so free that they feel that they have an entitlement right worldwide.
etiennc,
watch your mouth. There is a Domincan lady next to me and she is watching everything that you guys are saying here. Be a gentleman.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Cruz666, 6 Feb 2009 11:24 PM
From: United States
devin11,
I seriously believe that you can be a good president for DR. You make sense.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
What good deeds? The end of slavery was an offcial policy adopted by the French people constituted in a popular assembly. Not Haitians. You gusy love to falsify history. The historical record is clear. I understand that when Napoleon tried to bring slavery back formers slaves reacted with a logical impulse, but the results proves them run. Slavery, thanks to the work of many people who never met a slave, was dying out. World economic conditions were going to produce the change. When Ron Paul repeated this idea many laughed but a serious discussion shows that the world was heading that way thanks to the work of western abolishnists...
The Haitian revolution was a mistake the price of wish you still paying.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:29 PM
From: United States
Bonahan, It is unfair for the DR to be asked to sacrifice anything for it's own cultural stability, completely unfair. I don't think that your plan to remove Haitian's by force or worse is prudently plausible. The DR cannot survive an isolationist stance in the face of a Western or Global sanctions for a return to a Trujillo era Haitian immigration control policy. I don't blame you in the least, in fact I applaud your right to maintain a strong and defining cultural identity in the DR. I just don't think that your solution or implementation strategy is practical, how can you accuse me of thinking you are stupid for believing this?
From: Dominican Republic
I won't accusse you of anything. But what you Haitian think should be irrelevant to Dominicans. You need to look for a solution even if it means destroying your neighbors' culture. I whish Dominicans would take such a decisive attitude to maintian their culture. Sadly, at this point Dominicans need to be educated on the value of culture, the things that are worth fighting for. The nation matters, without it we are simpy bones and flesh...
When you said "It is unfair for the DR to be asked to sacrifice anything for it's own cultural stability" I laughed.....What the heck do you mean? So, you prefer to destroy DR for the sake of solving a foreign problem. Give me a break. Are you serious?
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:41 PM
From: United States
Bonaham, Dominicans are most only deported when they are found guilty of statutory applicable crimes that automatically elicit the interaction of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. There is not currently a concerted effort to corral and quarry illegal Dominican immigrants in New York that I am aware of. Neither is there in place such a policy of no work and no housing to illegals in New York. I am not of Haitian origin or descent, why would you assume as much? I respect your opinion and believe in your absolute right for the Dominican government to implement their rights of immigration policy, no doubt.
From: Dominican Republic
Sorry, but you can't obviously be Dominican. It would be too much of Guacanagarix complex. US migration policy is not a Dominican problem. If the US deports all Dominican illegal migrants, well, there's nothing we can do about it to stop it. It's not our call. But if we remove Haitians from DR, they will have more of chance to find work when the return back to the only place on earth they can truly call home. They will be welcome.
Written by: antonioj, 6 Feb 2009 11:48 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Interesting points devin11, just wait ... arkatype aka Bonahan48 have not yet label you Haitian, anyways I understand arkatype said that he used to be a " moderate" please do tell show me some of your prior posting.
I must commend some of you, who have the wisdom and patience to debunk some of the myth and the worst cretin in the forum.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:49 PM
From: United States
No sir, what I meant by that was it is unfair for the DR to be expected to help Haiti and the economic conditions that exist their. The current economic and political issues in Haiti are no fault of the DR and they should not have to sacrifice anything in order to keep their cultural identity and stop the flow of illegal Haitians into the DR. I don't know what you found funny about that. If you think that the US and world opinion of the DR is of no consequence or importance to the DR you should have that delusion checked.
From: Dominican Republic
I certianly misread you statement. World opinion is important but we can't sacrifice our identity to it. That's my point.
Written by: devin11, 6 Feb 2009 11:57 PM
From: United States
Removing all the Haitian's from the DR will not bring back one single Dominican expatriate to the Dominican Republic, not one, yourself included. Who are you kidding with that? Dominican's have thrived in the US and are getting more political power and all the trappings that come with living and participating in the most formidable country in the world, the country that you live in. It's hard to consider the ideals and rantings of nationalistic prophets and soap box patriots that don't even live in the country that they are so interested in protecting.
From: Dominican Republic
I didn't say that removal of Haitians will bring back Dominicans. They have the right to do what they want. Haitians must be removed becaused they don't belong in DR, simply.
Now, on the personal attack. I might be here for a few months, so what does that prove?
Didn't Jose Marti live in the US? Didn't Father Valera long for Cuban from NY?
You will not shout my voice with cheap arguments, c'mmon give us something to chew on...
Written by: devin11, 7 Feb 2009 12:16 AM
From: United States
You should check yourself before you accuse others of cheap shots. I have not insulted you even once, I know how to interact with people respectfully even if we should have differing views, unlike you. You are far too extreme to recognize the irony of how that same extremism would consequence you if it were applied in reverse. I'm sure that Mr. Marti and Mr. Valera didn't have your extreme racially violent philosophy. Again, I am not against a Haitian free DR if that is what the country and it's people want but I am against the by any means necessary approach that you suggest, unless that approach can be applied to you first. If I could give you something to chew on it would be reason and constraint but I don't think you have the teeth or stomach for either.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 12:23 AM
From: Canada, home safe
have we hit 200 yet ??
Written by: devin11, 7 Feb 2009 12:26 AM
From: United States
TonyJ, did you have any doubt?
From: Dominican Republic
Devin, why do you bring race into this discussion? I have no clue.
Marti and Valera were extreme nationalists. But I don't know what position they would take...Such a hypothetical scenario makes no sense...
WE ARE RENPONSIBLE FOR HAITI, Solve the problem yourself.
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 6:38 AM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
Whenever you see a Haitian, you should have said "thank you brother" or "thank you sister" because in the 18th century, the Atlantic stage was shared with three democratic revolutions: the American Revolution, the French Revolution and the Haitian Revolution. In 1791, the Haitians accomplished the unthinkable and shocked the world when the rose up and fought bloody battles till they defeated the troops of Napoleon to free the entire island and to create the world's First Black Republic.
The founders of the First Black Republic were: General Toussaint Louverture, the genius; Emperor Jean Jacques Dessalines; King Henri I (Henri Christophe) and General Alexandre Petion. Toussaint Louverture claimed a Universal Human Right to Freedom and Citizenship for all slaves and former slaves worldwide.
Haiti and DR will continue to exist and live side by side.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 7:00 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Cruz666
You are the same as your old aliases. You can change your handle but your Haitian supremacists beliefs are the same. You also live in the same Haitian "glorious past", like your past handle that is why you are in denial and so divorced from reality, dreaming about an impossible and even cynical Dominican-Haitian unification. Only a complete idiot or a madman would conjure such a far out hypothesis, and you are both.
Posters that don't know that you are just a Haitian supremacist instigator as well as a cyber terrorist and troll, still try to put sense in your racist head, to no avail.
We have heard time and time again your tiresome ramblings, now with a different handle and a new motto "The voice of discord". Mister you are in denial. Look around you if you have eyes and reread the posts.
You are only doing the Haitian nation a disservice by posting your
lunatic thoughts, with the purpose like a troubled child of doing mishaps, and creating havoc to gain attention.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 7:10 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
You belong in the nuthouse and eventually if you don't change your ways and seek some help you will end up there, and a straightjacket
will be your only companion you can talk to, and ramble about the glorious past and ancient history.
Strange you haven't yet brought up your favorite subject, that is voo
doo and start threatening to put curses on Dominicans, throw your magic powder at them and try make them zombies.
Persons like you have no place in the civilized world, you only bring discord and chaos to friendly environments that allow you to post your contributions to try to change the world for the better.
You offer no contribution hiding behind your new alias and trying to confuse other posters. You are the same o, same o, coward, who like a terrorist guerilla fighter places his bombs and then delights in misery
like the mad troll you are. We got your number now. You are nothing but a huge piece of digested mud excrement. And yes you stink too.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 8:03 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
If you think you are fooling anyone and laughing sarcastically with your few friends that tolerate you, because they are afraid of your madness, you are wrong again.
See, in your fuzzy and distorted thinking, like the good nutcase you are, you imagine that you are making a difference and you think that it heightens your sense of importance in the world.
You are nothing but zero, nada, aiñe, you are just a speck of regurgitated and spent cow dung laying full of flies buzzing on top of you.
If you think the Dominican state security apparatus is dormant and looking at their navels and umbilicus all day long, bad mistake. Remember Trujillo trained them. They are reading this post right now and awaiting your response. They have their eye on you, and they ARE watching you, so be careful.
You can crawl back into the hole you came from and don't bother to come back or reply either.
All threads can be traced to their point of origin, Dominicanation, haitian1804, or cruz666.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 8:08 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Con't
Or whatever other evil name you conjure, we have got your number, so thread carefully, like you are walking on broken eggshells.
Remember:
YOU ARE BEING WATCHED VERY CAREFULLY!
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 8:09 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
ok?
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 8:28 AM
From: United States
generoso,
What's wrong with being proud of your past? Why does DR celebrate its Independence Day every year? Isn't that DR displaying its pride as a nation? Answer me.
The subject in question is Haitians, right? What are you afraid of? Freedom of speech? Freedom of expression? No one can erase Haitian glorious history. What are you? a Tonton Macoute?
The Haitians gained their freedom through self-determination. The Haitians are strong and proud people. They are simply amazing for what they have accomplished by leaving their indelible imprints profoundly inscribed in the annals of world history.
Get over it my friend! Get yourself acquainted with the first amendment:
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 8:53 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
This is the Dominican Today internet newspaper, troll. We don't have in Dominican Republic the first amendment. Swim or get in a boat and go to the USA and claim your first amendment rights.
YOU ARE the ex-ton ton macoute and admirer of demented and rabid Aristide.
Create a Haitian Today and go post your venomous remarks there not here.
Obviously you have been unmasked and beaten like and Iraqui prisoner, now we are going to throw the dogs at you to further bite and beat you like a human piñata.
Tell the goons when they are beating you about the first amendment.
You will make their day while they are massacring you with their clubs.
Lautaro, Rubirosa, cibaeño, DominicanChic, guillermone, etiennc, Bonahan48, poponlaburra, and even our respected Puerto Rican brother devin11. Zero in your postings on this pest!
From: Dominican Republic
4. Should I thank them for displacing poor Dominicans from the labor market?
5. Should I thank them for Balkanizing my country and turn it into a bilingual and Afro-centric nation?
6. Should I thank them for bringing back diseases that were eradicated long ago and now we have to face again due Haiti’s failure to provide basic sanitary conditions?
7. Should I thank them for invading my country and driving us to become exactly what we try to avoid in 1844?
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, your reading of history is romantic that I almost broke in tears when I read you latest comments. My reply:
1. No, I don’t have to thank anyone. The Haitian revolution was a mistake. Had the island stayed in the hands of Western European there would not be hunger in Haiti. Compare Haiti today with Martinique, or any other French possessions and you will what a bluff your heroic deeds truly are.
2. Should I thank Haitian for killing Dominicans during the six invasions?
3. Or should I thank them for trying to erase my culture when they decided to close educational facilities and churches during the occupation?
From: Dominican Republic
Contrary to other peoples of Afro-European desdent, Dominicans can't afford close ties with Haitians. The history between the two different nations is clear. Hatians invaded DR too many times to take properties and control our culture. The first time they obtained the collaboration of Dominicans traitors who put their economic interests before their culture. The same is happening today. The in all cases, Dominicans have rejected things Haitian and have struggle to maintain their identity. It's always been the same story. They push east and we try to resist by peaceful means. One day, just like in 1937, they going to force us to react violently. That should be avoioded as much as possible. It a conflict develop, let be a last result. There are peaceful means and we need to try all. Raise you voice, Dominican, save your culture, you have a right to exist just like any other country. You should be he agent of your cultural transformation, don't let foreginers dictate who you are. P o M.
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, how can you defend the behavior criminals such as Christophe, Dessaline, Soloque?
You got some nerves...Haitians are sleeping the dream of glory of a falsified past that doesn't let them move forward. Wake up, smell reality and work to build your country. You are a great people, give up dependency and find the way out...Leave us alone.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 9:15 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Bonahan48
The Citadelle, the magnificent creation by a delirious self proclaimed King and Emperor who after having "liberated" his countrymen, forced them into building this impregnable fortress, that in order to reach in those days you needed to go up a tall mountain on foot or burro.
Emperor Henri Christophe who favored white European whores around him and because of his many escapades was diagnosed with terminal syphilis, a disease that drove him to end his own life by shooting himself with a silver bullet, as he himself must have believed that he was possessed by devils.
This delirious undertaking of an obvious deranged person was simply ignored by the French as the military concluded that it had no strategic value in the "La Citadelle" and it should just be ignored.
King Henri caused the direct death of over 20,000 "freed" Haitian slaves in the construction of this
idiotic fortress with no military value in tribute to his "delirium tremens" disease that was rotting his
brain
From: Dominican Republic
So Devin 11 is Boricua, why is he taking this fight so personal? I guess the must have an existential vacuum in he sould that he plans to fix with the destruction of Dominican culture. Why do they get involved in other people's business?
From: Dominican Republic
Generoso, great posts...Keep them coming. Dominicans don't fight back because they have been brainwashed by pretended humanists...Keep La Patria alive.. Thank you brother..
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 9:25 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Bonahan48
Devin 11 is boriqua and a good friend of the DR.
His postings in the past have always been fair and with level headed opinions.
He is also a lawyer by his own disclosure.
You have a wrong opinion about him. I urge you to get to know him better, he is a good guy and a friend of the Dominican Republic and our best interests.
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 9:30 AM
From: United States
Cross666
We want you to be proud to be Haitian in Haiti in your own forum
We want you to be proud to be Haitian when you enough courage and verguenza to blame all the jaclasses included Dessalinnes that have ruined your Haiti.
We wantt you to be proud to be Haitian when you can sit down with other Haitians and figure out how to get Haiti out of this mierda and figure out how to feed your people instead of of abandonning your children to mud eating and begging on the streets of Santiago
The word is Verguenza ! Honte ! Shame !
You may not realize it you have been humiliated here everytime you type your stiking comments typed with your fingers that have been stuck in your butt.
Yes ,revisit your bloody history and eflect .Decide how you can do better that these tyrants who have sold out everything Haiti had possessed
Yes you had a glorious history butt head but what you have to prove for it now ?
Being a public nuisance ?
?Molestar un vecino pias ?
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 9:42 AM
From: United States
Each time the Dominicans ask you to return to your HELLAITI you begin to speak about Dessalines,
Dessalines was the same tyrant who told his courtisans " PLIMEN POUL LA MEN PA KITEL RELE "PLUCK THE CHICKEN BUT DO NOT LET IT CRY, Steal but don't let anybody see you
And then the misery of Hellaiti began.
The Dominicans have politely and quitely asked Haitians to leave but you and your leeches have brutally forced them to sneak into the Dominican Republic by pure neglect and by making life unbearable for them
At least The Dominicans are more human.
If you had loved Haitians you would have ran your buses to the border and quietely pick them up. Instead you came here on purpose to antagonize the Dominicans, to get them upset expecting them to attack the Haitians.
We understand you cynical game you can not exterminatel the Haitians in Hellati by starving them to death you want the Dominicans to do you dirty job for you.
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 9:49 AM
From: United States
We undertand you game Cross 666
Your nickname says it all 666 the number of Evil worshippers.
You kill Haitians yourself ,you exterminate them your self and your other evil worshippers.
THE DOMINICANS WILL NOT DO IT FOR YOU , THEY WILL NOT FALL FOR YOUR TRAP.
THEY WILL NOT REPEAT THE PERAJIL TRAGEDY
The Dominicans will continue to ask Haitians to leave their country in a civil and human fashion. When the Haitians reenter HELLATI then ,you can starve them to death or you can exterminate them by any methods of you choice.
From: Dominican Republic
Devin11, it seems that your intentions are goods. I am sorry for any offensive comment. But you got to see our viewpoint too. More than a million people has been dumped in DR and that's a crisis....
Cruz666, you have a right to continue speaking for your people. I hope you won't be a victim of intolerance like I was in the Haitian Xchange. They kicked me out several times for exposing their lies.
Dominicans, save the Republic. That's our duty. You decide you future, don't let anyone shape who you are or what you are to become...
Patria o Muerte
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2009 10:06 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 a.k.a the mouse that roared, will not change no matter how many times we beat him like an Iraqi prisoner. He, like his boss, the little malicious priest Aristide, can't learn when to clamp their lies and falsehoods. I guess that we'll just have to wait for DT to get tired of reading the same tiresome rants that he posts day in, day out, and kicks him out for good, the same thing that they did when he ran under the WhySmitty alias. Some people just can't learn when to stop spitting sh*t out of their mouths.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 10:08 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Bonahan48
Haitians tried to invade DR 11 times, and they were thrown back.
In 1804 DR was a land of peaceful farmers and ranchers when they were invaded by the alien Haitian army. They were Africans who had been brutalized and brought to Haiti as slaves by their former French masters to work in the sugar plantations.
This huge army thirsting for riches, hungry for stealing and looting and armed with the modern French weaponry impounded from the French including huge cannons,
invaded the peaceful countryside in the eastern part of the island committing atrocities that we never even imagined on the peaceful and unarmed population going about their ranching and farming.
Mass public rapings of women, dismemberment of children in plazas and hanging of Catholic priests in tall trees. Besides their favorite torture of burning alive whomever they chose.
We should constantly mention past history and the Haitian massacres to remind Dominicans of the Haitian's cruelty and brutality.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2009 10:12 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
And also remind them of the danger that fanatical fools like Aristide and his chimere henchmen, like Cruz666, pose for the well being of our country, general. We should make it our top priority preventing the haitians from committing the mistake of electing him or his henchmen again, less we want the current troubles between both nations to worsen.
Written by: devin11, 7 Feb 2009 10:22 AM
From: United States
Bonahan48, I see your viewpoint and I've insisted on your right to claim and protect the culture, history and idiosyncrasies of the DR. My issue is that I don't agree with your by any means necessary approach, civilized countries should not try to resolve their conflicts through armed struggle. Your call for el jefe's former Haitian immigration policy propogates your approbation for such a violent resolution.
From: Dominican Republic
Genoroso, we must be mindful of history. Thanks for bringing back those details. That is why I don't want us to mix with Haitians. Pleople are a result of history, not biology.
Lautaro, I agree with you 99%. But let's not get involved in influencing Haitian politics. If we do, we give them an excuse to blame us for everything that happens in east. They simply can see their fault...Your posts are extremely important. Let's keep Haitians at bay.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 10:26 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
If Aristide ever returns he will be fried alive, for his own good. He was known to misquote the movie "Apocalypse now" and state:
"I love the smell of the burning flesh of traitors in the morning".
( The original quote was : I love the smell of napalm in the morning)
Haitians will elect another demagogue who sweet talks them, it's none of our business, let them do on their side whatever they want, and sink deeper in the hole of their own creation.
Have you noticed that Haitians are great hole diggers? I mean you tell a Haitian to dig a hole and you have to stop him otherwise he will reach China. It is in their blood I guess and their genetics.
From: Dominican Republic
Devin11, my point is tha in this war of we can't ignore any option. We have an ideolgical arsenal that includes all types of means. By any means possible, we need to save our culture. I hope that we never result to violence. I hope that, I really do. All depends on Haitians exercising their right to return to Haiti.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2009 11:22 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I usually don't wish ill to any person, but for that little malicious priest, I'd be willing to make an exception, general. God only knows the harm that his finger pointing and clowning have done to the fragile relations between both nations. The sad thing is that this clown have the support of the american liberal left and the CBC, so he's not to be underestimated.
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro, don't loose sight of the problem. This clown is doing he's job. But the problem are the illegals in DR. That's what creates the crisis. If they exercise the right of return, relations will improve...Ignore the Haitian diaspora, they are right in talking they way they do...What do you want? Why should they responsibility for their people now? They have never done it. They rather ship their problems to others. We Dominicans need to learn the game and counterattack accordingly. Why would you solve a problem when you can dump it in the neighbor's yard? That's the Haitian way... Our problem is not a Aristide's fanatic in Canda or USA, it's the freakin illegal migration... Estan creando una dominicanidad espurea. Nunca aceptaremos. Patria o Muerte.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 11:30 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
Ok you have the green light for termination with extreme prejudice.
Like marine Lt. General Chesty Puller once said facing the Nicaraguan firing squad when he was a grunt;
"Shoot me if you dare, some people are better off dead. But do me a favor,
leave my body to rot in the ground and don't bury me, so the buzzards can come and eat my flesh,
and then shit on top of your heads!"
After such an eloquent defense the Nicaraguans rebel general laughed out of control and decided that a brave and gutsy man like that shouldn't be killed, and freed him.
He went on to become the most decorated marine in history.
Morale of the story:
" A coward dies a thousand deaths and the brave only one"
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 11:39 AM
From: United States
Guys let 's not get to involed in Haitian politics and history
What we try and have tried to to in this forum is to try to "cool the heads,"
We all understand that Haitians need to go home.
We all agree whether we are Haitians , Dominicans and what have you in between.
We need to be careful as General Rosos has warned the devil worshipper crisis666 that we don't loose aour temper and do what the sticking elite has been unable to do by staving Exterminate the population surplus.
As we can see some Haitians posters some agents provacateurs have have tried to instigate hate with their insults.
IF they want to talk about the glorious haitian history they can create their own site : hateIam 1804, Hellaiti. Hatetians, Haitaucaust but we here we are trying to solve this conflict (can not feed Haitians and dominicans at the same time) in a civil,human and intelligent way.
Let's not get trapped in an ever ending debate about Haitian history,This site Is Dominican Today.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 11:42 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Lautaro
Aristide has sunk Haiti deeper into the hole more than anyone of all the late Haitian dictators.
Haitian businessmen recall that even Papa Doc with all his brutality was better for the country,
than Titi Aristide.
Aristide made Haiti into a narco state and stole millions of dollars which he safely hid in foreign banks. He uses part of that money for his demented plans to return, buying converts.
If he ever does return, then it will be Haiti's karma of going backwards instead of forward and reminiscing about the past and their infatuation with emperors, conquerors and strongmen.
If he ever returns armageddon will come into effect in Haiti, and we Dominicans better have a big wall in place to stop the flood of refugees coming over.
BTW a real tall border wall like the Israelis are building in Gaza might not be that bad of an idea,
and would provide needed jobs to proud Dominican patriots that will volunteer for that task.
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 11:47 AM
From: United States
Stavation, mud eating , zengendos, and the rages of nature have been slow to do what the filthy elite has wanted to do.
What about staging a war between Haitians and Dominicans then the Dominicans will do the dirty job for them.
Why do you thing we have parasites like crisis666 posting stupidities in this forum just to get Dominicans upset and resentful.
What history can this butthead be so proud about when fater 205 of independance they still can not feed their people.
La verguenza es una emocion social que debe guiarte a cambiar de comportamiento.
Someone who can not experience Shame has either a cynical project or is immature,or is subhuman primate.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 11:50 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
etiennc
Your vision is outstanding. Violence and civil war is EXACTLY what the Haitian elite wants.
They want us to do their dirty job for them. They don't want all those people back in Haiti for sure.
They have said publicly that Haiti is better off with a population of only six million. So they would want to eliminate or have us absorb the 2 million extra Haitians, that they deem unnecessary.
Imagine in DR with ANOTHER 2 million Haitians. An extermination war will certainly erupt.
And we would take the blame and do their dirty job for them, since they have been unable to control high birth rates in Haiti.
From: Dominican Republic
Some Haitians dream of a genocide. They think that if we start killing Haitian in DR the US will intervene and force the integration of the island. I don't that's likely to happen. If it does we just need to sink the island in despair. The US would not want a middle east in its backyard.
Etiennc, there's no such a thing as "in between." In the island we have Dominicans and Haitians only. No hyphanated identity allowed.
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 11:51 AM
From: United States
Roso if you want to waste time with these parasites go ahead.
But remember that we have a mission to see if we can get the Haitians back to their country while repecting their human dignity
If the stinking elite want to exterminate them they will do it themeselves on Haitian soil.
From: Haiti
Hello there,I m back...(this s the part u run for cover)"If Aristide ever returns he will be fried alive, for his own good. He was known to misquote the movie "Apocalypse now" and state:
"I love the smell of the burning flesh of traitors in the morning".
( The original quote was : I love the smell of napalm in the morning)" You r right Genoroso Aristide introduce "Pe lebrun" in Haiti from south Africa in the early of 90. but it s sad, the new ones are not better and they deserve the same treatment. You know the worst thing for an Haitian , is moving to DR. the unhospitality of the Dominicans is monstruous, not only to the Haitians but almost generally to everyone and everywhere.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 11:55 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Bonahan48
etiennc happens to be both Haitian and Dominican and proud to be both. Still he does not blind himself to anything but the truth. He is also a respected professional and psychologist.
That is why of the hyphen.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 12:02 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
haitian1804
Who rattled your cage and let you out? Must have been cruz666 calling for reinforcements since he was so badly beaten. But welcome anyway, I need other Haitians racist supremacists gluttons for punishment.
If you dislike our hospitality.....then please go back! I would even pay your return ticket in a comfortable tap tap where you can ride back enjoying the perfume of all your Haitian brothers.
And I would even throw in some plastic sandals, shampoo and a bag of all the other things the marchands bring home.
So please, don't even think about it. Take the next bus back.
And seriously if you promise never to return I will pay for your ticket back, tap tap class.
From: Dominican Republic
No, there's no such a thing as Haitian-Dominican.
Etiennc I declare you 100% Dominican. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
From: Dominican Republic
Haitian 101 you said:
" You know the worst thing for an Haitian , is moving to DR. the unhospitality of the Dominicans is monstruous, not only to the Haitians but almost generally to everyone and everywhere."
I agree 100% with you, now help you friends in DR get the hell out.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 12:27 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
I have to go now guys but don't be baited by the Haitian third columnists, their whole purpose is to instill hate and reaction so that Dominicans will get upset and threaten them, so later they can use
those angry remarks to further document their desired status of "abused and exploited" people.
This is the same technique used by other nations to instill followers for their cause.
We are been baited by these hate mongers to become violent. Just one incident of violence can generate millions of unfavorable opinions against Dominicans.
Remember the bogus video about the black person having his hand cut by a person with a machete.
This horrible video accused Dominicans of inflicting that penance on a poor defenseless Haitian.
Then it turned out to be a Colombian drug terrorist, not even Dominican or Haitian. But the damage was already done to DR and we were being bombarded by millions of angry emails demanding we stop the Haitian violence and persecution.
Will return later.
From: Dominican Republic
Mr Generoso
I never knew that you were a pacifist from reading your past postings.
What happened to the "fumigation" and flame thrower solutions?
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 12:43 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Sir:
If you have had real experience in the art of war, and you have witnessed the horrors that persons can inflict on each other, then you sort of become cured from desiring any more armed conflict.
A true warrior despises war and only resorts to it at the last minute, when all other options have been exhausted and there is an urgent need to:
1. Defend your country from aggressive armed invasion.
2. Defend the rights of Dominican citizens being abused by other countries or protecting the sovereignty of their embassies.
Like what happened with Haiti in 1963.
In the case of armed Haitian invasion then the huge wrath that has been building up for generations of Haitian abuse and pillage of Dominicans will erupt in such a huge righteous tsunami that a holocaust will consume Haiti and will drive them to the ocean, where they will drown since most can't swim.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 1:11 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 12:06 PM
From: United States
No, there's no such a thing as Haitian-Dominican.
Etiennc I declare you 100% Dominican. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise
"
Thanks but no Thank you, I will no sell my soul my friend I will stay being 101% Haitian.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 1:28 PM
From: Canada, home safe
One point arkatype= Bonahan48 unlike your other commarade your posting show total self hatred lace with complete ignorance , there is a profound difference to uphelding the immigration law and the ethnic cleasing and violence that you are advocating, I wonder if the situation was reversed what would be your position ?.
Talk is cheap, if you are so ardent, what do you not start to petition your government to bring about the changes you so desire, may be you do not want to leave your cocoon nest in the US
Indeed, you are nothing more than a poor fringe illiterate cyberterrorist that you portray so well in the forum shy of a grammy only.
From: Dominican Republic
AntonioJ, thank you for the flowers. Call me any name you want.
But I don't want a genocide. Far from it, I want peace. And yes I have done a few things denouncing this proHaitian government. Soon I be joining the Union Nacionalista and the FNP, but I'm waiting to see if Pelegrin Castillo brakes with the PLD. I will support anyone who support my nationality and culture.
I respect your love for Haiti, I love my culture too. Can you respect that?
We just want the Haitians out of DR.
From: Dominican Republic
"Thanks but no Thank you, I will no sell my soul my friend I will stay being 101% Haitian."
anotnioj,
Who invited you to join us?
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 4:27 PM
From: United States
Ladies and gentlemen,
I am really shocked to see how this chat room has become a chat room of hatred where the moderator has allowed the Dominicans to call for violence, threats and menace. I really believe that this chat room should be monitored by the F.B.I. People here are threatening the Ex-President of Haiti. I have lobbied and now Congressmembers Charles Rangel and Barbara Lee have re-launched an investigation on the way Bush had Pres. Aristide kidnapped. Aristide to return to Haiti soon.
See www.Hayti.net
generoso's threat to Pres Aristide is a serious matter.
Freedom of speech and Freedom of Expression do not equate to Freedom of Violence such as:
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 10:26 AM
From: United States
Lautaro
If Aristide ever returns he will be fried alive, for his own good. He was known to misquote the movie "Apocalypse now" and state:
... Trujillo trained them. They are reading this post right now and awaiting you...
"Voice of Reason"
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 4:42 PM
From: Canada, home safe
:
Written by: Bonahan48, 6 Feb 2009 8:51 PM
From: United States
Cruz666, my position is simple. NO HAITIAN IN DR, PEACE IN THE ISLAND...WE are willing to accept the return of every Dominican (real ones) who live in the West. We take them. We can trade and support each other, but Haitians in Haiti and Dominicans in DR. I think is a simple and beautiful ideal. I don't undestand why some people get upset. It's simple.
"
You will feel at ease and very comfortable with the skin head and the KKK that will share the same view as you, I wonder what is your stance if you believe what you preach !!
From: Dominican Republic
What is the problem with my statement? If admit we don't get along, if we know Haitians are not welcome in DR, let's remain separte. This policy is more like the isolationist policy adopted by George Washington. It does preclude some level of intereaction, but only when necessary. You guys go back to where you belong and there will be no reasons for our complaints....We begging you go home, leave us alone....
From: Dominican Republic
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 4:42 PM
From: Canada, Oakville on terra firma
"You will feel at ease and very comfortable with the skin head and the KKK that will share the same view as you, I wonder what is your stance if you believe what you preach !!"
No. I don't think so. I'm partially black and also have some Jewish blood. I despised racism. But Haitians are simply not welcomed in my country, they bring too many problems: sanitary, legal, etc...Getting them out, will bring some peace to a conflicted nation. The issue is not a racial one. But I've told that Haitians are obsessed with race. I am beyond that, not my problem. The mind is free, think whatever you want...But get the hell out.
I'm not promoting hatred or racism, just our soverign right to determine our future. Why is this so hard to get?
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
Honestly speaking guys we should redirect our rhetoric fire towards our own goverments because is entirely their fault this migration have gotten out of control.
Seriously, think about it. there is no use in quarrelling with haitianoloko, croix666 and the rest of the haters. what we need to do is to be more pro-active in putting pressure on the goverments to do something about the border and to systematically start deporting all " illegal Haitians ".
I personally don't hold any ill will towards haitians, we both share a island and we need to get along for the prosperity of both people. Haitian folklore is implanted in our folklore and that goes both ways, if you don't think so then that means you have never dance to the tune of Feliz Cumbe.
probably one of the most famous merengues of all time.
and make no mistake about it if there is a war i will be in front lines to defend my heritage at all cost.
but the solution is on the hand of the powerful and we all know what that means
From: Dominican Republic
OLD SCHOOL TRINITARIO, YOU ARE RIGHT...LET'S NOT SPEND SO MUCH TIME TALKING TO HATIANS. AFTER ALL THIS IS ONLY A DOMINICAN PROBLEM.
Q: Is the American culture also implanted in our culture? I never had a personal connection with Haitians or any element of their culture. I hope to keep that way...
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 5:15 PM
From: United States
what seems to afflict most haitian peasants and the sticking elite is a well systematized delusion of persecutions( 666 )and historical grandeur(haitian 1804)
there is also a deep feeling of insecurity and inferiority . rarely acknowleged that typically appear in most haitians reluctance if not inability to recognize , let alone accept tha haiti is a public nuisance
if a nation can t not recognize tha it is a pubic nuisance because of the bahavior of its own people ,this nation is condemned to uninterrupted failure
pa fot ( nou this is not our fault)
pa konen ( we do not know)
pa responsab (we are not responsable)
pa kapab (we can not)
yes this is your fault
yes you know this is your fault
yes you can you treat each other better
yes you are capable of rebuiding you country
having said that i am out
roso , lautaro, antonioj ,and the think tank i am out
i will not read any post regarding this subject
see u soon please do not answer
Written by: etiennc, 7 Feb 2009 5:19 PM
From: United States
read "that appears in most haitians . this explains their reluctance"
"pa fot nou"
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 5:23 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 1:50 PM
From: United States
AntonioJ, thank you for the flowers. Call me any name you want.
"But I don't want a genocide. Far from it, I want peace. And yes I have done a few things my nationality and culture.
I respect your love for Haiti, I love my culture too. Can you respect that?
We just want the Haitians out of DR.
"
Like I said I go both way, I am totally immerse in the latin culture, I like DR do not get me wrong, 40
years ago I could have been on your side, but I grow up to be a better person, where you stand were tried in the past on both side, the torch has now been past to a new generation that should seek different approach, DR and Haiti are relatively peacefull to each other besides the Haitian skirmishes in the past. You have not met the hardcore Haitian yet... ( neg sot) your nationalist pale in comparism.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 5:36 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Etiennc you may fill the blank here (neg eclaire sot)
From: Dominican Republic
I bet the hardcore Haitians are all about glorious Haitian Rev. and all that...Not my problem, but if they really believe in a hardcore approach I'm sure that they prefer all Haitians in the Haitian side...Or maybe this migration is part of their plan...I just see one problem between us...Remove them and everything will be ok...
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 5:56 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 5:03 PM
From: United States
No. I don't think so. I'm partially black and also have some Jewish blood. I despised racism. But Haitians are simply not welcomed in my country, they bring too many problems: sanitary, legal, etc...Getting them out, will bring some peace to a conflicted nation. The issue is not a racial one. But I've told that Haitians are obsessed with race. I am beyond that, not my problem. The mind is free, think whatever you want...But get the hell out.
"
Te cogi por la cola, you are very contracdictory to yourself and unsecure, a culture that can not stand by itself does not worth saving, if you despise racism I am glad that you do, we have something in common, now do you accept the fact that you are prejudice in that case, let's see I do not fit the perfect Haitian profile I can blend it, I dig the culture and the language, I make a decent living am I welcome to your circuit of friend or DR ?
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 5:56 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Cruz666
Oh I am so sorry to have said that "president Aristide" the demi-God would be fried
alive by their countrymen.
I should have said "ex-President Aristide will be SLOWLY fried in oil by the Haitians for being such a corrupt and cowardly despotic ruler".
Take that to the bank, you wimp.
Charles Rangel being presently investigated for tax evasion and Barbara Lee can kiss my rosy b.tt.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 5:58 PM
From: Canada, home safe
defintion of prejudice:
preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
From: Dominican Republic
I going to admit I never had a Haitian friend or enemy as I grew up. There were no Haitians in my town. So, I had simply no good or ill view on the matter. But, with this migration I have to admit that Haitians have become our main problem. Sad to say it, that this situation is making me hate Haitians. I never disliked any person or group. But now I crossed the line and admitted to myself that I dislike Haitians. I beg them to go home and help me recover my mental tranquility....Please, just go back to Haiti.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 6:14 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Have your ever had a visitor in your house that overstayed their welcome?
And you wanted them to leave?
That's all that I am asking, my dear Haitian friends, you have come to our land and we have welcomed you with open arms as brothers in need. Now it's time to go home.
Please return you have overstayed your welcome, you can not stay. So please go home.
The sooner the better, don't worry about us, we will be OK without your "strong
arms" and cheap labor, we will survive.
So please go now, the tap tap is waiting. And your country Haiti is waiting for you too.
In the name of all Dominican people, alé, depart, GO, vayase, adios, good by.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 6:15 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Listen at the end of the day someome, somewhere must address the immigrations issue and it will need to be initiated on your side. I AM AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Logic will tell me you that you can not deport every single Haitians not feasible, any comprehensible deportation must be done in a orderly fashion, there must be provision to allow some of the illegals that meet certain criteria to remain for the benefit of DR. Why is your government is being an ostrich,do not just come here and blame me or Haiti 1804 or cruz666, just build a wall if you chose to do,reality is the problem is very complex and you are being very short sighted
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 6:20 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 6:06 PM
From: United States
antonioj
You are missing the point distinguished friend. We don't want 2 million Haitian lawyers and doctors. We just don't want ANY Haitians illegally in DR no matter how much money they have or what their pedigree is.
"
I beg to differ estimado amigo, I do not even need your persmission, I will move now to live a better life in DR and be welcome with open arms and be threated better than the native
I chalenge anyone in this forum to prove me incorrect, if I am wrong I will leave this forum.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 6:27 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioJ
We Dominicans that want the Haitians out, so they can return to their own country are not worried about rules and immigration and so forth.
We do not need to build a wall, walls cost money.
The Haitians here are YOUR PROBLEM not ours. They have no right to be here and WE DON"T CARE what happens to them when they go back to Haiti. It is your problem not ours.
It's their choice to go back peacefully, or to go back with a bayonet in their butt, but
either way they must go back!
We as a sovereign country have every right to enforce our laws and deport unwanted immigrants. Period!
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio,
So, even when you talk of solutions you want us to pay the bill. Well, I am for some type of infrastructue that might help us keep haitian in Haiti. I also think we should criminalize illegal immigration among other things. There is a lot we can do. So far the agenda has been managed by special interest and the NGOs.
We don't want Haitians in DR. Look everything is possible. A few months ago Obama was a dream to Black America, now is just a reality. A Haitian-free DR is possible. Let us get to work. We can do this. We just need to come together and forget about short term economic gain and look positive side of keeping our culture.
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio, you dare to go to DR under my government (8 years from now) and you'll spent a few months in La Victoria.
From: Dominican Republic
Generoso, you are correct. They think we are playing. One day Dominicans will realize what's going on and the masses, under our leadership, wil put the house in order.
From: Dominican Republic
Jajaj. Generoso, no, there is no boss here. Just compatriotas....But as a Dominican, you must continue preaching our nationalist creed. Don't look back, God and Duarte are by our side. Believe it or not it takes courage to say what you are saying. Most Dominicans feel the same way but they are afrain of being judged as racist. We are Dominicans, we must defend our identity since; is the only one we will ever have.
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio, there is 15000 Dominicans in Haiti, productive worker. None begging and demanding special treatment. Compare that with 1.7 million Haitians in DR, 250000 of them rightfully employed in jobs that should be in the hands of Dominicans. Just get out.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 6:51 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 6:35 PM
From: United States
Antonio, you dare to go to DR under my government (8 years from now) and you'll spent a few months in La Victoria.
"
Here's my full name antoine armando c joseph do not be shy, put me in your not wanted list
you may the one sorry , perhaps cleanning my shoes or open up the door.
I guess no one,,, have found me to be incorrect and I can still be in the forum.
In a light note my wife think I have a cyber girlfriend, I promised her for new year to stay away from DT for some reasons I end up having myself drawn one some of the subjects being debated
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 6:52 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioJ
We don't need to provide you with anything. We don't need no stinking badges sir.
Your wish will become reality soon. The long lines of Haitians walking back to Haiti the same way they came to DR, or going back in tap taps, Dominican buses, private cars, ships, airplanes et all will be huge.
What a wonderful sight, how liberating for Haitians and for Dominicans. What a wonderful wish. Haitians going back to their beloved country and we Dominicans finally having the DR all to ourselves, without having to worry about the disease that Haitians bring, the unemployment, the competition for menial jobs.
I will miss the wonderful Haitian fruit vendors in their bicycles, they can stay if they want.
From: Dominican Republic
antoine armando c joseph, you are in my list...We agree to hate each other. Done deal!
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 7:03 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 6:48 PM
From: United States
Antonio, there is 15000 Dominicans in Haiti, productive worker. None begging and demanding special treatment. Compare that with 1.7 million Haitians in DR, 250000 of them rightfully employed in jobs that should be in the hands of Dominicans. Just get out.
Please provide figures and back them with link, I will not trust any figure from a nationalist like you, your normal behaviour would be to decrease the amount of Dominicans residing in Haiti while increasing the number of Haitian in DR, actually I disagree not the majority of DR see Haitians as pre-emptive threat most see them as a manageable threat that need to be to address( un mal necessaire) however people like you, ondevert, and the gang of illusionist that was endoctrined in the type of philosophy that you are preaching will probably be accordance with you.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 7:23 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Generoso you have now a new postion to decide who get to stay in DR or well congradulation good luck in your endeavor
folks you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee to realize the boat was missed when the slaugthering of poor Haitians did not provide the result intended, this was then, and now this is today a totally different ball game and different approach and cooperation are needed for the better of both countries, there have never been a question some repatriations is needed.
Now with respect to the elite Haitians immigrants doctors, ect and millionaires not being being welcome to DR you are only fooling yourself and being totally out touch with the pulse of your country and his history, you have inherited a class society that compare pretty well to colombia in that respect.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 7:29 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 6:55 PM
From: United States
antoine armando c joseph, you are in my list...We agree to hate each other. Done deal!
"
I love all Dominicans and Haitians, however I disagree with alot of Haitians and Dominicans as well.
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 7:55 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
It is really not that complicated, my friend if I may say so. Like I said before, there are a lot, many, muchos,
Haitians OVERCROWDING the DR portion of the island.
No harm intended, no aggression desired, no ill feelings. Plain and simple we just want you Haitians to go back home.
It is really very simple, just go back home.
Thank you.
PS The "slaughtering" of Haitians was done by dictator Trujillo in 1937. That was ......let me see....
72 years ago. If you want to sue us for that I think the statute of limitations has expired, and anyway I believe Trujillo was forced to pay compensation for that regretful episode.
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 8:33 PM
From: United States
The main concentrations of prostituted Dominican women working abroad are in Austria, Curacao, Germany, Greece, Haiti, Italy, the Netherlands, Panama, Puerto Rico, Spain, Switzerland, Venezuela and the West Indies.
SOURCE:
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/domrep.htm-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Haitian women in Haiti complain a lot about how Dominican women prostitues who have invaded Haitian residential neighborhoods, where conservative Haitian families are raising their children. Without shame those Dominican women sell their bodies openly. Despite these gross violations, Haitians always go through legal channels to solve this grave problem. They never use violence againt those Dominican prostitues. On both sides of the island there are problems to be solved by the Haitian goverment and the Dominican govenment.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 8:44 PM
From: United States
While Dominicans see Haitian as people who come to take their jobs, on the other hand, Haitians have no respect for Dominican women because Haitians are raised in a culture where prostutution is all they see and know about Domincan women. Haitians see Dominicans as lazy people looking for quick money. I ,personally, love Dominican women.
This forum is good. We are learning from one another.
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
His joke turned into, who's going to pay to sleep with a Haitian? Now, this is not only in Haiti, Dominican women had have resulted to this practice in order to make ends meet in Europe, just like Colombian, Russians and others...Sad reality, we need to amend that. They, along with Haitian migrants, were responsible for the initial spread of HIV in DR.
However, now the reserve is taking place. Haitian women are becoming competitive in prostitiution rings in DR. 4 months ago a. Some europeans prefer them more exotic, more African.
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, deport all of them. They have no business being in Haiti.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 9:22 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 9:05 PM
From: United States
However, now the reserve is taking place. Haitian women are becoming competitive in prostitiution rings in DR. 4 months ago a. Some europeans prefer them more exotic, more African.
"
Same in cuba the german have a preference for the darker women, with respect to women they should be respected regardless, they are the cradle of humanties, and should be treated as the queen that they are and offer protection mutually on both side of the isle.
May God bless them all.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 9:30 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 9:05 PM
From: United States
They, along with Haitian migrants, were responsible for the initial spread of HIV in DR.
"
Check your facts arakatype you are treading on thin water or you are purposely obsequience of the facts a simple google search could assist you, it's a shame in the day of the internet
From: Dominican Republic
Actually I had a conversation with epidemiologists the University of Florida who told us about his work in DR. Twice he did the mapping and twice the data indicated that HIV came via Haitian migrants and not European tourist as some have suggested. I'm adding Dominican prostitutes. I think they probably share the blame with Haitians. Later this confirmed since the HIV subtype present in DR is the subtype that originated in Haiti. Well, the jury still out on the origins of the subtype what it presence in Haiti and the US is predates its presence in DR.
Do a little research. Haitians and Dominicans became victims of this tragedy. I'm not pointing fingers. I just giving you the facts.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 9:48 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 9:41 PM
From: United States
Actually I had a conversation with epidemiologists the University of Florida who told us about his work in DR"
Arkatype you are doctor now too, can you share the name of the doctor and the research paper and the type of HIV subtype gene that are common, now which respect to origin please point me to any proven independent studies published, reviewed and peruse by his peers on any respectable scientific journal.
Do not worry I will wait .....
From: Dominican Republic
Ok. Since you tried to invalidate my comments. Let me try to invalidate yours. The peer s review system has been discredited my scientific research. Many of the so called experts tend to find faulty evidence when there are interested in persuing the same studies they have selected to analyze. If you think that rarely happends I suggest that you read Dr. Bell, Brooklyn College, work on the peers review system and corruption in the scientific community. His work on management and organization behavior is extremely good.
My conversation with the Doctor was informal and quite interesting. Look I'm saying that Haitian migrants and Dominican prostitutes brought the disease from Haiti. That's makes a lot of sense given the circumstances. The mapping put the first cases in areas of high concentration of Haitians. Pure luck????? I doubt it.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 10:12 PM
From: Canada, home safe
From: Dominican Republic
I don't undestand your point. If you want us to think that HIV did not originate in Haiti it's Ok . I got you. There's no conclusive evidence...Besides, HIV is not part of blame game. That it came to DR first throu the migratory wave from Haiti there's no doubt about it, but what matters is that humans are suffering...When you get infected the virus doesn't care if you have bicolor or tricolor flag...Let's fight against HIV...Who cares where it came from?
From: United States
I pray to God to return all Haitians back to Haiti safe. There's no reason why Haitians should be migrating legally or illegaly to a place that does not respect them. The Haitian Government need to reinstate the Haitian Army to maintain order and security along the Haitian border. The Haitian Government need to build a wall on the Haitian border. With the new Haitian Army and the wall, that will solve all the problems between the two countries. This solution will not fail. Now all of you, write to the Haitian Government and urge them to reinstate the Haitian Army and build that Wall.
Written by: antonioj, 7 Feb 2009 10:32 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 7 Feb 2009 10:23 PM
From: United States
I don't undestand your point. If you want was to think that HIV did not originate in Haiti it's Ok . I got you. There's no conclusive evidence...Besides, HIV is not part of blame game. That it came to DR first throu the migratory wave from Haiti there's no doubt about it, but what matters is that humans are suffering...When you get infected the virus doesn't care if you have bicolor or tricolor flag...Let's fight against HIV...Who cares where it came from?
"
I am totally in accord with you amigo mio, if I can borrow this from Obama we can agree to disagree but still be respectfull to each other, hope one day Haiti can be as beautiful as DR history have shown it was, until then a la prochaine chicane mon frere, soy tranquillo como un camello
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Feb 2009 10:40 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Folks, I think that a new record has been set up here on DT, 300+ POSTS ON ONE ARTICLE. Unbelievable!!!
From: Dominican Republic
You see, for many years, we had less of a problem until migration got out control and NGOs began screaming slavery all over the world. As Dominicans, we have no choice but to react. I hope one day we going to sit at the table of peace and be able to look eye to eye without the shame the exercise of violence brings
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 10:47 PM
From: United States
Guys,
Stop banging your heads against the wall. Stop this auto-discrimination. Stop pointing fingers senselessly. The aids virus has been in existence for about 100 years. It does not come from Dominican Republic or Haiti. American/European tourists brought it the island of Hispaniola.
________________________________________
NEW YORK — The AIDS virus has been circulating among people for about 100 years, decades longer than scientists had thought, a new study suggests. Genetic analysis pushes the estimated origin of HIV back to between 1884 and 1924, with a more focused estimate at 1908.
Previously, scientists had estimated the origin at around 1930. AIDS wasn't recognized formally until 1981 when it got the attention of public health officials in the United States.
SOURCE:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/200....ists-trace-the-orig_n_131056.html"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic
Proudtobehaitian, that's what I'm talking about. You got self-love, self-respect. God bless you.
Antonio, we share the same island. Things have gotten out of control and we all are responsible. I want a solution soon, a peaceful one. Trust me. DR is essentially a mulatto country and Haiti has a lot of us...I remember a few years ago I met this Haitian girl who lived in Washington Heights and never imagined she was Haitian until she told me...Her family lived among Dominicans and they got along pretty well. I don't think of myself as White or Black, but when I see a Haitian mulattoe I instantly recognize the historical link that unites us. It's a weird felling, strange.
From: United States, New York
Lautaro, if you or your friend happen to have more information on those UN negotiations to install clinics in Haiti that fell apart, please forward it to dominicansforthetruth@hotmail.com or forward to me in a message. We look at these types of incidents.
A new record has been set on DT, clearly because a new precedent has been set by the people of Santiago. I believe this is the proper example to follow by communities that are bothered by Haitian immigration, and not the barbaric ways of Neyba and Guayubin.
From: Dominican Republic
Dominicanchic tell me about Dominican for the Truth...Who are you? What do you do?
From: United States, New York
Bonahan48, glad to do so. Dominicans for the Truth is a non-profit that's dedicated to preventing and stopping defamation against Dominicans. In the past few years, most of the negative publicity Dominicans have been getting has come as a result of the issue of Haitian immigration to DR, so it's the issue we're now tackling. Our current focus is on questioning the NGO's that are either currently supporting Haitian immigration in DR or through their criticisms preventing the DR government from implementing its immigration laws. It's very new, and the idea is for it to gain followers who in addition will express their own views of protest to relevant parties.
Take a look at what we've done:
http://www.dominicansforthetruth.orgBy the way, print versions of these letters also go out, so it's not just lost in the vacuum online. Collaborators are welcome.
From: Dominican Republic
Domincianchick,
I will send you an email with my personal data, probably tomorrow. Just let me know how I can contribute and help the cause. Thank you for your work, we need to stop the defamatory campaign and the migratory wave that led to it. I will be joining your efforts. Thanks, again.
Written by: Cruz666, 7 Feb 2009 11:19 PM
From: United States
PROUDTOBEHAITIAN,
Shame on you. Haiti does not need an army. What did the army do after Trujillo cut the heads of about 40,000 Haitians? NADA.
An army of thugs like Cedars, Michel Francois, Biambi and Co that used to consume 40% of the government's budget for nothing. Under Aristide there was ZEO TOLERANCE in Haiti without an army. Under Aristide we had no kidnapping, no killing, no raping, no out of control drug trafficking, . When racist Bush realized that Aristide was celebrating Haiti's 200 years of independence in 2004, he and a small group of Haitian traitors plotted a coup against Aristide. Despite all the accusation and lies about Haiti's Great Hero Aristide, he still remains the most popular person in Haiti, which can be estimated between 75%-85%.
Down with Tonton Macoutes! Down with Papa Doc! Down with Baby Doc! That money can be used to help Haitian immigrants returning from foreign countries.
From: United States, New York
Thanks Bonahan48, I will be more than glad to exchange personal info. as well. I believe that as the constituents of the countries currently running LF's puppet government, we are in a unique position to make a difference regarding this matter. I also think there's a much higher probablility for the US to help with the source of the problem (Haiti) with the Obama administration. We must let our legislators know that we care about this matter, and any criticism of DR regarding this issue must be constructive criticism that is fair and balanced.
From: United States
Viva la Hispaniola !!!!!
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 12:15 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 12:25 AM
From: Canada, home safe
DominicanChic I support your action I read your letters... they are pretty fair and responsible, glad you are following the democratic course, you should start to write letters to the DR & Haitian government, mobolize public opinion, create an emails campaign, write to the press, to Television stations, attend radio shows where you can get some very good exposure to advance your cause. we may not be in complete agreement on what will constitute a final resolution of the immigration issues, however it's a step in right direction.
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 12:15 AM
From: Canada, Oakville on terra firma
dreamer 666
Aristide allies barred from running for Haitian Senate
Guy Philippe, whose rebel band helped oust Aristide in 2004. He has been living in hiding and is wanted in the U.S. on drug trafficking charges.
Guy Phillipe was trained by the United States Special Forces in a Dominican military base. Those charges will one day go away. Or they will screw him like carra de Piña
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
Let me make something clear, even if I say things like Dominicans are lazy.
“Not all”.
They try to make a “quick buck” I am not in anyway pro Haitian. I am just letting you know why these things happen. Haitians are a tool for the rich to get richer; they do not want the Haitians or their offspring to become Dominican citizens because it does not benefit us Dominicans. Just like in the slave days, the masters and the whites did not want the salve to learn anything, the masters where just contempt with cutting of the sugar and nothing else.
I believe we should NOT allow the offspring of Illegal Aliens “Haitian or other” to become Dominican citizens. Even thou sometimes I feel this is wrong because it has kept a young man from becoming a major league baseball player. I believe that Haiti should recognize this Dominican territory born Haitians. The Haitian government should give them papers so if one day they have the chance to leave the island for a better life.
From: Dominican Republic, Boycott Dominican Tourism
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 3:16 AM
From: United States
The sticking Haitian elite because of their greed and selfishness have turned Haiti into HELLAITI.
They have dumped thousands of poor Haitians on Dominican soil,
Here in this forum Dominican Today u Dominicans are trying to solve the Haitians problem that has became your problem and guess what, the same filthy elite have sent their agent provocateurs to this site to insult, tease,blame u and to remind u of the wrongs that Haitians have inflicted upon Dominicans during Haitis occupation.They want to irate u and force u to harm Haitians living in RD
Then they will call upon their biased human rights activists to demonize u
These immature folks will never grow up and take resposibility for the future of Haiti as long that u Dominicans offer their poor:food,shelter,work,and the dirty elite a forum(Dominican Today) to talk crap
U Dominicans must understand this cynical game and ignore them
La manera de tratar a una gente sucia,parasita y "SIN VERGUENZA" is to fart in their faces
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 8:35 AM
From: Canada, home safe
THE OTHER SIDE OF HAITIAN-DOMINICAN RELATIONS.
http://findarticles.com/p/article....b6634/is_200004/ai_n26501856/pg_1El Siglo newspaper highlighted in its February 20 issue a little known aspect of Haitian-DR relations. Haitian businessmen have invested over RD$1 billion (more than US$62 million) in the DR since 1986. The report on Haitian investments points to companies such as Helados Nevada (ice cream), Frutina (flavored water), Agua Fonbella (potable water), Jugos Antillas (juice products), Bohio Agroindustrial (spices and condiments), Kawas Mercantil (exporting company), Remesadora Cam (remittances), Transporte BOULOS, Mariesh Industries ...ectt
Some of us want to micro manage other with bigger open view to the future want to macro manage, let's not fool ourselves there are also positive angle too the Haitian and DR relationship that need to be known and advertised beside immigrations and other frictions.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 9:12 AM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: chillaxin201, 8 Feb 2009 2:01 AM
believe we should NOT allow the offspring of Illegal Aliens “Haitian or other” to become Dominican citizens. Even thou sometimes I feel this is wrong because it has kept a young man from becoming a major league
"
Mon bon ami, I would beg to differ with you for the simple fact that the offspring of mixed union Dominican and an Haitian are still illegal as per your constitution. In 2005, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights issued a ruling denouncing the Dominican government’s discriminatory practices and demanding that the government take the necessary action to address this problem
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p....tion/1/7/7/2/2/p177223_index.htmlI am all against illegal immigration, however we would agree to disagree on the technicallity and on the semantics.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 9:20 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
It is wonderful about the wealthy Haitian entrepreneurs investing in DR, they obviously are looking for a safe and sound return on their moneys. So are the many Americans, Spaniards, British, Venezuelans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans, Brazilians, Canadians, French, Italians, Swiss, and other nationalities that invest in DR. It is solely good and sound business and has nothing to do with mass illegal immigration.
Antoine, you will be most welcome if you desire to come and reside in DR, count me as your friend here. BUT, and is a big but, that's not the point.
The point is that if you do decide to come to work, reside or retire here you would do everything possible in your knowledge to make your stay to abide by all the laws here. You will get your residence papers to normalize your stay, you will get Dominican government ID (cedula) that is needed for all transactions, even cashing a check.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 9:21 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
And you will NOT depend on government provided health and human services to take care of you. Plus you will probably have your own source of income or could generate income as not to be a burden to the Dominican State.
But even if you did all that, the DR government or any other country in the world will let you bring to DR, an additional 1.5 million to 2 million more of your compatriots even if they were to become as solid residents as you were.
It is a question of national identity, civil studies, social customs, historical ramifications, language, as well as nationalism.
Now if all your 1.5 to 2 million compatriots wanted to become citizens of the DR, besides having independent means of support, studying our history, passing a test,
and speaking the language, just like the immigration rules of other countries, including Haiti. Then I would say: Well let's think about that and maybe put it to a vote to let all the other citizens in the DR decide. ( Continued 5 comments below)
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 9:27 AM
From: Canada, home safe
etiennc save yourself the re-run I think you have made your point forcefully, the syrians, the palestinians came to Haiti without a penny, now they are living comfortably well in the height of laboule and kenskoff, while the majority was consumed with political infighting among themselves and having 10 kids per mother, the reign of power was pretty much black.... on the other hand what you call the elite were hard at work on the business sector, now how do you reconcile such a great divide, let not blame everything on the the elite. just a little food for thought.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 9:32 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 9:20 AM
From: United States
antonioj
Thanks for the offer I am already excited, I can wait.... I am Dominican at heart man
From: Dominican Republic
If one of the parent is Dominican (not a Haitian pretending to be Dominican), then the law grants the child Dominican citizenship. In most cases, Antonio, these kids have no problem. As long as the parents can prove who they are they are always documented. The exceptions are only a few. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE OFFICIAL REGISTRY IS FULL OF HAITIANS WHO WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO DOCUMENTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. BUT SOMEHOW ILLEGALLY GOT DOMINICANS DOCUMENTS. Their kids are not Dominicans. An illegal act should not lead to the documentation of the perpetrators.
From: Dominican Republic
In San Pedro de Macoris, for years, Dominican who left the country for the US, come back to see that they have been victims of identity theft. In any other country the jails would be full of Haitian migrants and Dominican corrupt register officials who engage in these illegal actions. We are talking about hundres of thousands of people who break not only the Criminal Code, but all migration rules. We need to criminalize all these practices. Once Haitians and their Dominican enablers see themself in prison for a few years, others will think twice before they engage in criminal activities.
From: Dominican Republic
The best example of managed migration is the case of Palestinians working in Israel. We can use a similar system. The Israeli need some Palestian workers, they come, do their work, get paid but don't mix with the Jews. I really like that model. It my not look like panacea, but is an excellent example of how to groups can have some level of cooperation. Even at a time of war, they still find ways to use excess labor. Haitians working in DR should be limited to no more that 250000. I think this is doable.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 9:42 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Because 2,000,000 more inhabitants even if they healthy, financially independent, be able to speak our language, to learn Dominican history and customs would still be a burden on our water infrastructure, garbage services, ornate, education, food supply,
housing, transportation, and private health services. We would still have to provide security for those 2 million new residents. We would need to program increased importation of more fossil fuels, provide more electricity, import more cars and spare parts, increase public and private transportation, telecommunications infrastructure,
and many other services that we now take for granted.
So with your simplistic approach the problem is not even beginning to be solved.
Now instead of financially independent and healthy, take those two things away,
and then on top of that add the burden that they speak mostly patois, they are voo doo followers and they are here just as a necessity but they prefer to be in Haiti.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 9:53 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Then add to that that some or most of them are illiterate or functionally illiterate, can not speak Spanish, and are in poor health and only able to do manual labor or beg in the streets.
Then you have a disaster and a refugee problem that could implode at any minute.
And this is the situation now that the DR is being gratuitously burdened with by the irresponsibility of the Haitian government as well as the international community.
And this is unfair, unjust and more so even criminal to both sides.
How would you feel if 2,000,000 sick, poor and unemployed Dominicans invaded Haiti? If the situation was reversed?
How would the USA deal with 20% of their population or 60 million immigrants were poor, sick and unemployed illegals?
There would be a civil strife and riots for sure.
The days of peace and love are long gone forever, it's a tough world out there,
and Haitians should not be now biting the hand that fed them.
Put yourself in our place.
From: Dominican Republic
So, 1 billion dollars invested by Haitians in 20 years. Let me see, well that's the money Colombian cartels bring in a month... 1/5 of the amount invested in any hotel by European FI . This investment by Haitian will not be rejected. But let me comment on that:
1. Haitians invest in DR
2. Haitians make money in DR, then ship their benefits to foreign banks
3. How much money have they made out of the Dominican consumer? A lot given the high spread in DR retail and banking system
4. How much interest have they collected from our banks? (Paid by Dominicans borrowers)
5. It does matter, money is money and we do not discriminate. We can use more Foreign Invest.
6. Antonio, you should be happy that we have no prejudice against foreign investment
7. IN HAITI A DOMINICAN WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUY A PIECE OF LAND LEGALLY. THE LAWS LIMIT FOREIGN OWNERSHIP OF LAND AND LITTLE VALUE FOR THE RULE OF LAW
8. What is your point in bringing the this fact, Antonio? What exactly are you excusing?
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 10:13 AM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 8 Feb 2009 9:42 AM
From: United States
The best example of managed migration is the case of Palestinians working in Israel. We can use a similar system. The Israeli need some Palestian workers, they come, do their work, get paid but don't mix with the Jews. I really like that model. It my not look like panacea, but is an excellent example of how to groups can have some level of cooperation. Even at a time of war, they still find ways to use excess labor. Haitians working in DR should be limited to no more that 250000. I think this is doable
"
This is an interesting proposal, bohana48 you want have a great country man, you can not legislate mixing of people that happen ex south africa, with respect to the number of Haitians workers let the market decide ...
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 10:21 AM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 9:42 AM
From: United States
Because 2,000,000 more inhabitants even if they healthy, financially independent, be able to speak our language, to learn Dominican history and customs would still be a burden on our water infrastructure, garbage services, ornate, education, food supply,
"
So true, we are back to square one again,Generoso that goes back to family planning which is the root cause. limited resources and demographic explosion mainly on the western side is a threat to peacefull co-existence. This is one area I think your government should get involved and be pro-active.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 10:24 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
I agree 100% with letting the market decide. To set an arbitrary figure based on assumptions or hearsay is ridiculous and not very business friendly.
To use the Israeli-Palestinian model would be counterproductive as well, as the Israeli model is cruel to Palestinian workers treating them as second class citizens with no rights. This is not acceptable either.
Dominicans are not Israelis, we are a kind, friendly and warm nation, to institute a discriminatory policy like that in our nation is unacceptable, we are forgetting how our immigrants are sometimes treated as lesser persons by other foreign governments including Puerto Rico, and the USA.
We should not emulate mean, discriminatory and racially bias practices.
From: Dominican Republic
The Palestinian-Israeli model is cruel because Palestians were invaded. In our case, we are the victims of occupation. You see, you can legislate can control the mixigin. It has been done before and we have all need to do it. Trujillo was very good at it. Forget the massacre. Balaguer did a decent job withou violence. The mixing can be control, not fully eliminated but managed. Ideology, the exercise of state force and education are the key.
I see why you guys don't like the Israeli example, but put it in our context. We are the victims, not the oppresor.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 10:31 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
Family planning and population explosion is a big problem. I would say is a HUGE problem.
But it is not the subject matter. The subject matter is the 2 million illegal Haitians adult and children that are already here and we want to send them back home. And should return home. Capice?
Again regarding over population in Haiti mainly as well as DR, this again is a matter of irresponsibility of both governments to deal with that and face the dogmatic opposition by the religious zealots that oppose methods of birth control, condom usage, and instead advise "refraining from sex", or abstinence the most stupid and naive parameters. It is like telling a child you will leave alone in a room not to eat the chocolate cake in front of him.
The religious groups are to blame as well as the two government's lack of courage to face them head on, since they are such a powerful lobby.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 10:32 AM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 10:24 AM
From: United States
antonioj
I agree 100% with letting the market decide. To set an arbitrary figure based on assumptions or hearsay is ridiculous and not very business friendly
"
Generoso I think you are missing the point, he's referring to migrant seasonal worker, they have that system right now in the us and canada with the mexican and the jamaican
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 10:38 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
That seasonal migrant worker system is used by highly organized and developed societies, we are neither. We have to be realistic as we don't have the necessary conditions to enforce such a system.
Here within minutes once the system is operating the corruption mafias will open their signs outside the window of the DR:
"Open for business" only pesos are needed.
With a country with such a high degree of corruption rampant throughout, enforceability of such a system would be unlikely and improbable.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 10:42 AM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 10:31 AM
From: United States
antonioj
Family planning and population explosion is a big problem. I would say is a HUGE problem.
But it is not the subject matter. The subject matter is the 2 million illegal Haitians that we want to send back home. And should return home. Capish?"
Generoso you are placing the cart before the horse, before considering such action can we start a least by determine:
1. The actual number of illegals (I see figures from 500k to 1millions, 2 miliions)
2. Who qualify to stay as Dominicans under what rules and regulations
3, Establish a process to become legal under established term
4. Amnesty
5. Time frame for repatriation
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 10:51 AM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
In your very organized obviously scientific mind you are prescribing a methodology which may or may not be the best, or the most adequate. But I agree with the basic parameters.
The final step by step process will be determined by the Dominican authorities once the will to solve this problem is decided and the rules are implemented.
I have to go now but as usual it has been a pleasure.
Whenever you decide to come to DR and visit, send me a private message.
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio, one have a quesiton and it got nothing to do with the current debate. But you are Haitian, help me understand something:
How come Marc Bazin never became President of Haiti? He had all the qualities of a technocrat, knew government and was perceived as honest.
What happend to him?
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 1:57 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48
I will share my opinion regarding Marc Bazin.
He has no qualifications to runtoday s Haiti,
Haiti needs a pragmatic CEO just like Obama and Bloomberdg the mayor of New York te reverse years of hate and neglect
Bazin is from the same breed like Latortue,vain,revengeful, antagonistic,tendency to form clique inatead of team, supersticious ( one will see him consulting with voodoo priest for good luck amulets)
Bazin has no leadership qualities .
I am glad that you guys have taken the high road and are posting serious reflexions on how to best resolve the Haitian nuisance on Dominican soil.
Bravo !!!
Some of you may think that I am to hard on these parasites that have used this forum to instigate dissentions between Haitians and Dominicans.I have no patience for these cynical comedians whose grand parents had sold Haiti declaration of independance to a private collector and they have no verguenza to come here and call themeselves Haitian 1804
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 2:18 PM
From: United States
Could you imagine that a major section of the country surviving archives , ranging from early times to twentieth century exchanges between Franklin D Roosevelt and a president of Haiti was sold to the New York library in the 1970's
New York library posesses more than 8000 historical documents and articrafts.
What they did not burn ,they sold.
The gold sword of Emperor Soulouque was taken from the National Museum and sold by the Duvalier family
And coutry that burns or sells its past is a country condemened to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Haitians need to stop of this vain patriotic gymsnastics and begin to act like mature people and stop destroying their country and laying the blame of some other countries.
I hope that u guys(ROSO included) will not stop rallying and caling for Haitians to grow up stop the :
PA FOT NOU ( it is not our fault)
PA KONNEN ( we do not know)
PA RESPONSAB ( we are not responsab)
It is your damn fault ,n u r responsable to fix Haiti
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 2:44 PM
From: United States
Here in the U.S., they see Dominican Republic as a Black country with various shades because about 90% of DR population carry Haitian/African blood. In Cuba it's only 35%.
Dominicans claim that there are 2 million illegal Haitians living in the Dominican Republic. If you deduct the 2 million Haitians from the 9.5 million inhabitants of the Dominican Republic, then the net population of those accepted as Dominicans will be 7.5 million. The question is when comes producing its annual budget, does the Dominican government take in consideration a population 9.5 million or just 7.5 million people? Does the Dominican government play with the numbers only when it’s convenient?
Misery doesn’t have border. While Haitian migrants cross the porous border into the Dominican Republic to find work; illegal migrants from the Dominican Republic cross the Mona Passage in high sea of sharks infested water each year to go to Puerto Rico to find work and a better life.
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 3:03 PM
From: United States
Read the (parasite 666 )'s post and see for yourself what I have been saying
This is someone telling the Dominicans that they must provide for Haiti's poor
Talking about people SIN VERGUENZA !
This is shinning example of someone sin verguenza
As Preval has said "PA RESPONSAB, NAJE POU NOU SOTI"
He is not responsable ,Haitians must swim out of their poverty, Meaning : cross the Haitian Dominican border . swiim to Florida, The Bahamas,( except Cuba)
This is a Haitian head of state telling his country men to swim, to cross borders for food ,shelter and work.
Do you see the parasitic reflexes ,the immaturity ,the irresponsability of present leaders( Preval ) and future leaders ( cross666) ?
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 3:20 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 8 Feb 2009 11:22 AM
From: United StatesAntonio, one have a quesiton and it got nothing to do with the current debate. But you are Haitian, help me understand something:
How come Marc Bazin never became President of Haiti? He had all the qualities of a technocrat, knew government and was perceived as honest.
What happend to him?
"
I had great hope on Jean Dominique, Bazin, Boulos and Charlito if you understand Haitian politics
the very educated have probabaly voted for the candidates above, the masses still uneducated. can be bought for as little a bottle of "clairin" these people consist of the majority and they are the type people that Aristide the little monster prey on, The diaspora that could in effect counter this are not allowed to vote.
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:25 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it??
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:25 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
... It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is my corner! You go over there! Como'n people grow up, and realize that we share one island together and whether you like it or not, we are Dominican/Haitians & Haitian/Dominican.. And we need to put our differences aside ...
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:25 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:25 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it?? Haitians Or Dominicans = Brothers & Sisters! We are not just neighbours, we are so half Dominican & half Haitian, that it really doesn't matter. It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is my corner! You go over there! Como'n people grow up, and realize that we share one island together and whether you like it or not, we are Dominican/Haitians & Haitian/Dominican.. And we need to put our differences aside and work together for the better of our countries, and for the better of our Island. Now, don't be dissing Wyclef! He's done and is doing a lot for his country! More than we can say for some of our biggest money making celebrities. You all need to read a little , do a little research before you go crazy. Think of what you like to say, before you open your mouth and offend others. All Races e Welcome here..
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:26 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
Think of what you like to say, before you open your mouth and offend others. All Races e Welcome here..
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:26 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
And we need to put our differences aside and work together for the better of our countries, and for the better of our Island. Now, don't be dissing Wyclef! He's done and is doing a lot for his country! More than we can say for some of our biggest money making celebrities.
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:26 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it?? Haitians Or Dominicans = Brothers & Sisters! We are not just neighbours,
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:26 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
...half Dominican & half Haitian, that it really doesn't matter. It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is my corner! You go over there! Como'n people grow up, and realize that we share one island together and whether you like it or not, we are Dominican/Haitians & Haitian/Dominican..
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:26 PM
From: United States
Written by: DominicanLady,
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it?? Haitians Or Dominicans = Brothers & Sisters! We are not just neighbours, we are so half Dominican & half Haitian, that it really doesn't matter. It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is ...
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 3:26 PM
From: United States
...More than we can say for some of our biggest money making celebrities. You all need to read a little , do a little research before you go crazy. Think of what you like to say, before you open your mouth and offend others. All Races e Welcome here..
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 3:54 PM
From: Canada, home safe
cruz666 is Dominicanlady another alias
From: Dominican Republic
Cruz666, Aristide is not coming back. Forget about it. And Apaid will be Haiti's president. I sure you. The legal minutia is been worked out now...Viva Andy
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 4:04 PM
From: United States
Bonahan48,
I have to give you a lesson in Haitian politics: Haitian Politics 101: Haitian people can not be bought for money. You’ll find a few & military thugs like Cedras, Michel Francois (drug dealer) who will conspire with the Haitian elite and the Republicans to overtrhow constitutionally and democratically elected president of Haiti (Jean-Bertrand Aristide). If Haitians could have been bought for clairin Boulos and Apaid would have been president by now because those folks have money.
Bazin is not a popular person in Haiti and he is not trusted. Bazin is the product of the Republicans. Haitian people prefer a president just like Barack Obama and Aristide, who can lift a country from the bottom up.
“The Voice of Reason”
From: United States
Bonahan48-As you can see, your comment has been repeated about 6 ro 7 times I don't know if it was intentional, but if you can and wish please delete all of the duplicates. It will be much easier to read when scrolling down.
Also, to who are you directing your comment is it to cruz666 or someone else? Because on one posting I hear the voice of congeniality, you ask about Bazin yet on another post you sound angry," the world see us black, that's their freaking racist problem. no mixing, patria o muerte, cono."
By the way, for the record, I am on your side, but my approach is somewhat conservative, more middle ground and less extremist.
From: United States, New York
Anonioj - thanks for the complement, we'll get to all those things, one step at a time. Just keep checking us out.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 5:10 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Hey Lat you have stay away for the controversy, here's a question for my colleague on the east is it possible on the forseeable the future that the Dominican republic may have a woman as president . I know I am off the subject please throw some likely names...
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 5:11 PM
From: Canada, home safe
server is slow too much traffic
From: Dominican Republic
Why not? I just can't see one at this moment. But the parties have plenty of women who fit the bill. Milagros Ortiz was close to the presidency, but at this point she's too old and I think Miguel Vargas is likely to become the nominee again.
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 5:21 PM
From: United States
There is a problem here. When one posts something, it's repeated several times. Please correct the problem.
Thanks
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 5:31 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Bonahan48, 8 Feb 2009 5:20 PM
From: United States
Why not? I just can't see one at this moment. But the parties have plenty of women who fit the bill. Milagros Ortiz was close to the presidency, but at this point she's too old and I think Miguel Vargas is likely to become the nominee again.
"
You see what Putin did in russia, it is remotely possible that Leonel's wife may run or would Leonel seek another 4th term.
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 5:33 PM
From: United States
Dominican Today has been changed to Haitian Today. when this happened ?
You wish to cater to Haitians, to pamper them and you get upset when they invade your country.
By paying so much attention to their plight instead of their natural greedy leaders and parasiti elite
you are inviting them to seek solace in your country.
Don't Dominicans have enough problem on their own to worry about the Haiti bloody story?
No wonder Haitians are called the most immature people on earth.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 5:33 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 5:21 PM
From: United States
There is a problem here. When one posts something, it's repeated several times. Please correct the problem.
Thanks
"
Need to be patient the server is overwhelmed with request, just click once ONLY
From: Dominican Republic
That woman has no chance. They play that one and the PLD is finished--which would be nice given the PLD materialist, anti-nationalist and proHaitian stance...
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 5:44 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
Regarding Dominican women in politics. Well Milagros Ortiz Bosch would have been a much better
president than Hipoloco Mejía but was buried by Hipoloco and might be too old now and tired.
There was always a rumor going around that she liked to indulge in spirits frequently.
And the actual president's wife. She is a lawyer and charismatic and some are saying that Leonel is grooming her to become the candidate for the next election in 2012. Sort of like Cristina Kirschner in Argentina.
Other than that there are no big stars in the deck as far as women are concerned. Personally I think a woman president would be a good thing for the country. But many other political analysts
have said that in a macho country like DR a woman will never be elected. And she will lose against any man, which is a stupid commentary.
If the right woman comes along she has as good of a chance to be elected as any man.
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 5:48 PM
From: United States
etiennc,
You never reveal who you are. You are Dominican? Haitian or ...? You are the most confused person in this forum. Why can't you answer this simple question?
"The Voice of Reason"
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 5:51 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Cruz666 or Whysmitty
Listen Mr.Voice of Discord etiennc is a member of the "brotherhood", and is fully protected from pests and vermin like you chimeres and Aristide turd columnists.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 6:33 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
Cruz666
Please answer a question for me since we know you are in contact with ex-president Aristide.
And don't get paranoid now, I don't mean any harm.
When the Haitian mobs were looting Aristide mansion after he left the country, how come your glorious leader "forgot" over 100,000 US dollars in one of the safes at his mansion in Petionville, that the mob's found and displayed to news reporters all that cash old, moldy and maybe useless from the humidity?
He just plain forgot they were there? Or he had so much cash stashed away it didn't matter to him, a hundred thousand here.....a hundred thousand there.
I am just curious. I mean I certainly even if I had alzheimer's wouldn't forget where I put that much money.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 6:34 PM
From: Canada, home safe
We may hit a record 400, etiennc, cruz666 is back, Haiti1804 stayed away.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 6:40 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioj
Tomorrow when they start cleaning all the posting duplicates and mistakes the count will probably go down, but it will be great if we hit 400.
There are a lot of posters missing, must be because it's Sunday.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 6:45 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Hey Generoso, Bonahan48 made a comment which I did not have time to pounder on, yesterday
about the Haitian revolution being a mistake the elite, increasingly the students and the light skin mullatoe have always felt that way I share the same sentiment as well, although this is something that make Haitian proud, at the end of the day they have completely destroy the dream. I do not want to be a revista however the cost of independence has somehow shutter the dream of a united Haiti & Haiti espanol, would you agree if Toussaint was successful thing may have been different than what it is today, let me know your thought. Lat, you are back this is for you too, I am still waiting for your email.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Feb 2009 6:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It had to some extent, antonio, cuz' the very ethos of the dominican independence movement at the time was a rejection of the "black exclusivism" practiced by the haitian military during the occupation, by their ban against the spanish language, catholicism, and most of all, the economic regime that ruled on the eastern part during colonial times, that is, the one of the communal terrains (terrenos comuneros) in which the property, subsistence cultivation and cattle herding on vast tracts of land was shared by a group of families and the Catholic Church, a regime that ran counter with the haitian gov. policy of expropiation of those lands to award them to the army's black chieftains. This last factor would be the chief cause of independence, cuz', as Machiavelli used to say: "A man might forgive the killing and outraging of his family, but he will never forgive whoever touches his property", it's as simple as that.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Feb 2009 7:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Moreover, I think that Bonahan is on point when he says that one of things that have harmed Haiti's efforts in recovering themselves from their socioeconomic malaise have been precisely their outrageous bans against foreign investment and property in the country. How can a country give itself the luxury of isolating itself such on a competitive and increasingly global society is beyond me. I'd say that, if there's something that we dominicans should bring on to the negotiation table on this inmigration issue is precisely to condition our giving amnesty to some inmigrants (the number to be determined) when and only if the haitian counterpart agrees to lift their outrageous and stupid bans on the property department.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 7:19 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
antonioJ , Lautaro
Remember that in 1843 and 1844 Haiti was in turmoil and busy with internal struggles and wars between blacks and mulattos.
Read "the Fall of Herard" by historian Frank Moya Pons.
http://www.diariolibre.com/noticias_det.php?id=187809But the truth is evident, independence of Haiti in 1791 and later wars and inept and corrupt rulers caused Haiti to go from the richest colony in the Americas to the poorest independent nation.
Look at other French possessions of "Ultramer" like Guadaloupe and Martinique, St. Barths and half of St. Martin, all totally prosperous with a standard of living much higher than DR.
And then look at independent but rag tag and despondent Haiti, a beggar failed state. Was the price of independence from the French too costly?
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 7:28 PM
From: United States
I am reading with a certain sadness whether intently or by naivety how u Dominicans have been engaged in the history ,the politics of Haiti,U have been deeply involved ( included the Roso )in Haitian problem solving
Kudda for crisis666.
You have made yourself Haitian think tank d'honneur.
You have done a great job.Now since the futrure of Haiti depends of u do not get upset when the Haitians cross the borders to seek solutions for their in dividual problems.
It seems that the 205 years old Haiti solution rests in your hands
The Haitian filthy elite can contlinue to say
Pa konnen(do not know)
Pa kapab fe anyen (we can' t do anything )
Pa we(we do not see)
Pa tande(we do not hear)
Pa konprann (we do not understand)
As Preval would say " NAJE POUN SOTI "Swim to get out
I have tried to warn u of this cynical game,the more I warn u the more engaged you become.
Well u have taken over the role of the stinking Haitian elite, they will gladly let u do it.
Written by: generoso, 8 Feb 2009 7:36 PM
From: United States, Santo Domingo
etiennc
You know that I hold you in great esteem, and it is obvious that you are angry with the Haitian exploiters like Bennett that even sold the Haitian's blood to make money, a true vampire.
But all is not to be blamed on the elite, that will be irresponsible as well. There are other factors into play.
The elite carries their share of the burden, but also the inept and corrupt politicians,
the military, The French, the Americans and even the Dominicans for being so aloof
and disconnected from Haitian current affairs.
The four of us are having an intelligent conversation, etiennc, we are not threatening anyone here.
From: Dominican Republic
Generoso,
"even the Dominicans for being so aloof and disconnected from Haitian current affairs." What do you mean? Dominicans have nothing to do with the course of history Haitians have carved for themselves. You made a nice list, but you forgot one group" THE HAITIAN PEOPLE, THE MASSES...
They continue to practice superstitions and continue to choose the worst type of leadership. They blame others for their fault and cry when they just have to look inside to find the culprit. Please, get us out that list. We are the victims of Haitian irresponsibility, nor the perpatrator of any historical crime.
Written by: etiennc, 8 Feb 2009 8:08 PM
From: United States
Roso the great people of Santiago have done a great job.They have asked the Haitians to go back home while respecting their human and civil rights.
These people are aware of a reality that we the think tank here shoul have been aware of.They do not want to get blamed for harmind Haitians and they have proceeded in a calmy fashion to get Haitians out.
That was the premise of this article , We should have applauded them and continue to cool the heads , try to calm the ones that have been calling to take up arms to get Haitians out by force.
What has happened the elite (Haiti is dived into two groups the peasants and the elite- the elite is the child in kindergarden that is learning to say mama to the corpuupted intellectuals, the peasants the campesinos forced to eat mud.
Like I said the elite has succeded into diverting our attention and engaged us in a study of Haitian civism and the history of Haiti.
We have missed the opportunity to do our job that is to calm the spirits
Written by: antonioj, 8 Feb 2009 8:21 PM
From: Canada, home safe
excellent thread, I copying everything here to all the participants if I ever use your quotes I will ensure your name is credited.
Bonahan48, you have debated Pichardo on Haitixchange can you for the benefits of the forum give us your point of view he's the totally on the left as you are to the right...
From: United States
No way out, La Hispaniola
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Feb 2009 9:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Perception said: "No way out, La Hispaniola"
You're right, there's no way out, United MEXICAN States of America.
Written by: Cruz666, 8 Feb 2009 9:34 PM
From: United States
generoso,
Why do you have to respond for etiennc? Is he your zombie? Now to answer your question about where Aristide found the money. Aristide wrote about 20 books and he speaks more than 10 languages. Aristide is one of the top 5 intellectuals of all times worldwide. Aristide is a money machine. He was once paid to $300,000 to conduct 2-hours seminar. Haitians have been producing geniuses for centuries. Now we have a young Haitian-American Patrick Gaspard, who has been appointed as White House Political Director by President Obama. Patrick Gaspard was the genius behind the scene and the quiet strategist that helped Obama to propel to the presidency of the U.S. . Haitian-American Patrick Gaspard (maybe another Toussaint Louverture) may become the 2nd Black U.S. president. Just stay tuned. For the record Pres. Obama wants to see more Haitian immigrants in the U.S.
http://jonjayray.wordpress.com/20....a-wants-more-haitians-in-america/
No more comments can be posted in this article.
Smaller
Bigger
Close Gallery
Facebook
Digg this
del.icio.us
Technorati
Yahoo
Enough is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no more pacific invasion!!!!1
thanks!!!!1
Not just here but everywhere all these displaced human beings just trying to survive.
Time for the religous organizations to start practicing what they preach.
I mean honestly does the Vatican or the Jehovah's witnesses need to keep building temples.
Just to name a few..
Well said!!!!!
This will teach these crackers in power and the dirty elite in Haiti that the Dominicans are not responsible to provide food, shelter and work for Haitians.
For too long these vermines and leeches have been adopting the (5 PA's) that have made Haiti the hell it is now
PA konnen ( We do not know)
PA bisniss pa nou ( It is none of our business)
PA kapab ( We can not)
PA fot nou (it is not our fault)
PA responsab ( We are not responsable)
You are damn wrong , you are responsible to fix Haiti and make it livable instead of dumping your Haitians brothers and sisters on Dominican soil
Your input are not really needed since we are doing this in a civil and human way.
If they had refused to leave voluntarily, then we would call you to gas them and to kill them.
We are the last resort because you represent the force of brutality and the wickedness.
Good knowledge admitting the wrongdoings from your own goverment, Dominican poplulation is
kind of fed up watching goverment ineptitude and are taking actions in their own hands, better this
way than watching a "balcanization" process, We have the right of choice and defend our soil and country!!!!
Is not personal but We have the right to adopt policies and rules that fit our well being not your people!!!! OK????
Al Haitiano se lo esta llevando el mismisimo diablazo.
But in all seriousness that is a sad situation with these Hitian kids.
they are the ones that suffer the most.
But hey it's a Jungle outthere!!!!
Sad for those kids, but it will be worse if we result to genocide. Send them back now, it's not too late.
I think a possible solution would be to start some type migrant work program where Haitians would be allowed in for a predetermined time if they can prove they will be employed and have a place to live.
kokoloko
very funny
he got a point in regards of the haitians taking over many jobs that Dominicanz don't want to do anymore.
http://www.elnacional.com.do/nacional/2009/2/5/6784/Marchantas
Medina wants help to issue ID documents to Haitians in Haiti
Danilo Medina, presidential candidate for the Partido de la Liberación Dominicana, urged that developed nations contribute to develop systems in Haiti so that that nation can issue identification documents to all its citizens. The fact that most Haitians, primarily because they are too poor and distrust their government, never bother to get their identification documents creates major problems for the Dominican Republic. When these people cross over without a single identification document they create confusion at the time when they want to declare a child, or register a child in school. Since the parents have no legal names, what is the last name of the child, for instance? Medina told El Caribe newspaper that Haitians' lack of identity documents is one of the major obstacles in the ongoing migratory talks.
source DR1.com
No killings, no abuses of human rights, no burning of houses ,simply you have to return home we do not want you here.
For too long the Dominican Republic has been a refuge for the cowards who refuse to take on the streests tin Haiti to detach the leeches that are sucking their blood.
It is easier to come to the Dominican Republic and gather all the human rights activists to trumpet abuses inflicted on Haitians.
Return home and ask the ladrones running your country that you are not welcome any more on Dominican soil and they should share Haiti's riches with you .Ask them to feed you, to shelter you, yo send your children to school , and give you jobs.
The Dominican Republic is not the answer to your problem.
That is the upside of the equation, the down size is that we are going to miss some good sensationalist type news coverage.
"The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars."
How can they hoard so much wealth and watch the "Children of the God " they supposedly worship starve in front of them.
This goes for all those tele evangelists as well..
The Dominican authorities refuse to force their younger Haitian counterparts to stop being immature.
The people of Santiago show courage and character when they try to solve the conflicl in a human and civil way.
What strikes many people visiting Haiti is not poverty is wealth.It is the arrogance of the wealthy. It is the waste and the" fithy rich "refuse to share.
Have you asked yourself where the billions of dollars sent to haiti from friendly nations from Haitians living outside Haiti go ???
Haiti has way too many patriots like the one posting stupid comments here to instigate problems.These patriots pillage the coffers and divert our attention
with their never ending insults spitting here
Haiti needs nationalists who wil share the waeth wit
Unfortunaly people like Rubi gets trapped in the patriot's ruse to engage him in some stupid and vain debates about Haitians and Dominicans
These patriots usually speak about Haiti past which means that Haiti's wealth belongs to them.
Haiti belongs to them only.
It's a disgrace for Manhattan to have them,
I hope they act as civilized as the Haitians people,
Will keep you posted about the results !!!!!
Which ones do you refer? The elitist, stiff upper-lipped ones that live on Rockland, NY. Or to the peasants that live on the "Little Haiti" in Florida? Of the former, I don't doubt your assessment, but for the latter, well, let's just say that I just plain not believe you, specially when your own African American population living over there have a not-too-kind vocabulary when referring to those inmigrants. Have you heard about the term "cat-eater", by chance?
http://www.cloakanddagger.de/medi....re_the_vatican_wealth_is_stor.htm
I do agree that Rockland has its share of campesinos.What we have in Rochland specially in Spring Valley is a hard working Haitians unfortunately it is a refelxion oh Haiti wher they can not get along and it is a rat race there.
They can hardly get a place to live when other ethnic groups are favored to obtain lands
You must be refering to Long Island,part of Queens when you are talking about " elitist stiff-lipped ones"
We keep blaming the governments each other it is time the churches step up to the plate.
These ancient laws protecting the Church need to be looked at again. If they are making a profit from of non-profit money and assets then those assets should be seized and distributed to the most needy.
it's that you forgot to use deodorant since puberty.
I did not see the words" Deodorant and Trujillo" in the article.
I can undertand that sometime we need to use methaphors or extrapolate to clarify a point.
But try to keep your comments relevant to the article so we may see the light at the end of the tunnel.
U r welcome Lautaro
Where is Gerenal Roso when we need him ?
zak325 welcome to the block !
I hope this new development will force the dirty elite to realize that the 5 PA's that they have adopted for the past 205 years can not continue
PA reponsab ( we are not responsable)
PA fot nou ( it is not our fault)
PA kapab ( we can't)
PA bizniss nou( it is not our business)
PA konnen yo ( we do not know them )
Yes this is your business to take care of your Haitian brothers and sisters
Yes tis your danm fault if Haitians are crossing the border illegally
Yes you can help sharing the wealth with them
However, I've also personally experienced the other side of the issue and having over one million illegal immigrants (by some estimates) is a problem. Many of these people have no choice but to resort to a life of crime and we already have our hands full with our home grown ones. I know many people, family and friends who have been victim of crimes committed by illegal Haitians.
Also, deporting 2 to 3 thousands peacefully or not will do nothing to solve the problem because there are hundreds of thousands waiting to take their place.
Citizens are getting fed up with the Haitian illegal invasion that has busted the flood gates and like a tsunami are inundating the DR until we drown together, we must avoid civil strife and a Balkan type war.
The government is choosing to bury it's head in the sand like an ostrich irresponsibly, and because of this lack of action citizen groups are forming, like in Santiago de los Caballeros, (rightful name) and are giving the illegal Haitians ultimatums to leave or else.
We should not wait for the "or else" and start the immediate deportation of all illegal Haitians ASAP, and not wait for the fuse to ignite the powder that will blow us all up.
As the economic conditions in the island get progressively worse so will the Dominican tolerance for the Haitian invasion.
Immediate and swift action is warranted.
I quote your reply to DominicanChic, "you are another ill advised dominican trapped in the wrong methodology and philosophical ideology of the past that certainly will do nothing way forward to alleviate both countries from proverty and suffering".
And my question to you is: What is the "right" methodology" or "philosophical ideology".
Our poverty in DR is being increased exponentially by the reception and shelter of the Haitian poor, sick and disenfranchised that are sent our way on a daily basis.
Even Fidel Castro once had the bright idea to send all the delinquent prisoners of Cuba to the USA, perverts, thieves, con men, rapists, gangsters and criminals.
Therefore known afterwards as the "Marielitos" and upon arriving in the US guess what? they rejoined their previous occupations becoming criminals again.
It is not the same case with the all the Haitians, but my point is that every country has a right to choose, stop and control their immigration quotas.
And the Haitian "elite" as well as intellectuals consider themselves a "different
breed" than their fellow countrymen. I can attest to very formally educated, bright and polished Haitian ministers, that can outshine most Dominican counterparts in
their cultural base, consider themselves "a separate class" from their fellow countrymen.
This racist supremacist attitude hurts the Haitian people and their progress, and they are worse than the Dominicans in obvious "denial" of their huge problems.
They fantasize and day dream about past glories or having some huge financial
bonanza come their way, like the movement to solicit moneys payed to France as ransom. This is just day dreaming and not having your feet grounded in the sad realities and will most likely never happen.
Blaming others is a sad excuse for not taking responsibility for the welfare of Haiti,
Haitian people are hard working and deserve a better future, but not sucking at the Dominican tit most of the time
The 1000 mile journey, as a wise oriental sage once wrote, begins with the first step.
And:
Obstacles will occur but do not deviate from the path, and think about crossing the bridge when you finally arrive there.
There is a laisser faire attitude in DR, the situation will not get better, they should be pro-active and get involved in away that beneficial to them, and the haitians by simply taking our poor, the uneducated or guarantying a pool of cheap labor will not do, we need a different approach.
The basic problem in Haiti at present is the lack of security that was unraveled after the US invasion disarmament and disbandment of the Haitian army.
They made matters worse by breaking up the Haitian army, just like identical mess they created in Iraq.
Granted the Haitian army was guilty of corruption, smuggling and drug contraband at times. But the corrupted elements mainly officers could have been weeded out, leaving the institution to remain intact.
Rebuilding and strengthening the Haitian army and instilling in them democratic principles, just like we did in DR so they will obey and not interfere with their civilian
higher ups, and not impose coup de etats.
The Haitian army was like a scarecrow to the masses, they respected it and mobs ran away at the sight of soldiers because of their history of brutality and intolerance.
But they served their function well to preserve property and order.
This security is lacking in Haiti at present and needed the most.
Thank you for your kind compliments.
My good friend sometimes chastises me for spending so much time posting my comments, but I consider it a necessity to create awareness and understanding amongst both Haitians and Dominicans.
We both have similar problems, the basic ones are lack of education or functional illiteracy. But as we all know its not easy to attend school or concentrate on studying when your stomach is empty or the only modest meal that you will receive is in school, or your daddy wants you to help him with the crops or earning money in whatever desperate way you can and pulls you from attending school.
To eradicate poverty is our biggest challenge and quest, and this can be done first
by feeding the hungry and then offering them opportunities for a better education.
At the same time providing health services to all, not an easy task, but doable in the next 10 years or so if we had a plan.
I agree with most of your post except for the influence of Minustah.
The Haitian army was both feared and respected because of their history of brutality and intolerance. Whenever a rallying mob of Haitians saw soldiers coming, they ran and disbanded.
Most of the time just their presence was necessary to impose order and shooting was not needed to maintain peace.
Mostly they were used as "Scarecrows" planted visibly in agriculture to scare crows and buzzards.
The Minustah may have the guns but they don't have the respect.
The situation has deteriorated to a much worse scenario since Haiti is not only a failed state but also a very important narco-state and bridge smuggling drugs to the Dominican Republic and then on to Puerto Rico and the USA.
Because of the large small numbers of illegals attempting this smuggling the probabilities of interdiction are low, and the odds in favor of the dark forces.
You guys are very knowledgeable and the comments are extremely educational
and interesting. But you are keeping me from work!
Keep it up, it's better than going to the movies.
I can't blame them for doing so, general. On the scale of brutality of the armed forces in the Americas, the haitian army was perhaps the third after the brazilian and chilean ones, so it wasn't a group to be messing up with. Although they disbanded easily after the US marines set up shop over there on 94'. The reason behind this being the constabulary education that they received at the US funded "School of the Americas", that is, an efficient training in torturing and massacring civilians, but a mediocre one in training them on the art of war against other armies.
So was the Dominican army of the past. Remember they were branded "gorilas"
because of their brutality and mobs preferred "not to mess with them".
But look at the DR army now, and the Chilean army and the Brazilians so professional and devoted to the civilian government and democratic principles.
Because they were not disbanded altogether and put to pasture as was done in Haiti.
Sure there are nay sayers out there saying that some are corrupt and involved in
drug trafficking, and that is partially true. But the great majority of Dominican military are proud of their occupation and very professional, and respect their civilian bosses.
The constitutionalist forces were only defeated because of the massive US intervention in favor of the military junta in San Isidro. It was a matter of days that their surrender was imminent and the morale was low in the regular army and were inept in dealing with opposing forces with the
"pueblo" armed with small arms against tanks, ships and airplanes.
Still the "pueblo" won the battle of the Duarte bridge and it was a matter of time that the Wessin faction would have capitulated and surrendered. They would have ben no need for a country wide uprising as the San Cristobal army battalion was awaiting the developments of the battles in the outskirts of the city.
I was shown photographs of a 7 year old little girl shoving a molotov cocktail under a tank
and the tank bursting into flames. Wars are mostly won by ideals and strong leadership as well
as military theory and resources.
See my posting in "the forum" about General Wessin.
But regarding the events in the Dominican revolution of 1965 the best story tellers are the ones that were in the front lines, and those are the ones that I have documented the stories from,
as well as eye witnesses from both sides. Including American marines and paratroopers that were part of the invasion force and landed later after constitutionalist victory was imminent.
Were they posted at Vietnam after their victory over here?
This Georgia cracker that we had as US ambassador was sitting in the floor under his desk at the US embassy crying to then President Johnson that the US embassy was under siege and being bombarded from the air and from the ground, and begging for a quick intervention stating that the communists had taken hold of the "rebel" forces, as they were called.
Instead the real story was that the San Isidro air force planes in their attempts to strafe Radio Santo Domingo Television which was in rebel hands, shot all over the area, some bullets and
rockets coming really close to the US embassy compound, and the navy ships bombarding the national palace blew up a bunch of homes in the surrounding areas.
And of course they might have been some disgruntled civilians armed with small
Yes they were. Immediately after the Dominican revolution calmed down the 1 ST Marine division,
82 ND Airborne and 101 ST Airborne were sent to the Vietnam war.
arms taking pot shots at the US embassy, but nothing near an armed assault as was pictured in his conversation with Lyndon B. Johnson which afterwards authorized the US invasion with the pretext "To save American lives" and stop the spread of communism in the Americas.
You are right about Bennett, coming from the deep south and civil war ravaged Atlanta,Georgia, that was burned down by the invading yankee armies, he was probably one of the good old boys network from the south with their corresponding racial bias at that time of civil rights conquests and social unrest (1965) in the states.
His big faux pas was that he was in bed with the right wing military factions that were influenced by the American military attaches posted in the US embassy. Some were responsible for instigating the coup de etat that got rid of Bosch in the first place, and so a return by Bosch was their biggest nightmare, to be stopped by all means possible. More so that Bosch had declared himself a leftist and anti US interests and not a believer in democracy after his downfall.
Bosch was living in San Juan, Puerto Rico and refused to come to the DR alledging that the airplane that was supposed to have transported him "was too small", which was taken as a no.
because that was held by the San Isidro faction that was biterly oppossed to his return.
Later Coronel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez the brain behind the conspiracy returned from Spain and met with Bosch in PR who sent him in a mission to confer with Coronel Caamaño in the surrounded colonial city and the Gazcue section that were held by the rebel forces.
Coronel Fernandez Dominguez could not wait to get into the actual fighting and was killed while trying to assault the presidential palace held by Dominican army and US forces, along with Illio Capocci an Italian ex-WW II fighter and trainer for the feared navy "frog men" squad.
Excellent analysis and conclusion.
Juan Bosch despised Papa Doc Duvalier more than Trujillo and wanted nothing to do with him.
It was rumored that he encouraged Haitian groups to plan an invasion to rescue Haiti from that brutal dictatorship. More so after the feared torturer and Dominican fugitive from justice Johnny Abbes who was responsible for the criminal torture and assassination of hundreds of
patriots in the "La 40" prison was later advising Papa Doc about his horrible learned trade.
But Papa Doc was no Trujillo and quickly had Abbes murdered shortly afterwards with his complete family including dogs and servants.
In 1963 when the gross violation of Dominican embassy grounds in PAP happened, thousands of enraged civilian Dominicans waited in line in front the military barracks to volunteer against the imminent war with Haiti, that was brewing.
So I agree that Duvalier might also have had an influence in trying to get rid of Bosch, although small.
That is correct.
Balaguer like Trujillo was fevently anti-Haitian and racist as well. But had no qualms about bringing in the cheap and efficient Haitian laborers to work as semi slaves in the sugar cane plantations under terrible squalid conditions, to benefit the private sugar barons and state owned sugar mills, that were a legacy and direct inheritance from Trujillo.
Excuse us with got carried away. Are you the new cyber police of comments?
I suggest you read the whole thread and not just the final bits and pieces and you will find many excellent postings and suggestions.
What do YOU suggest for a "final solution" (sounds dreadful). Or your ideas?
I have to go now. Will continue later.
The state is the first guilty party that breaks the percentage rule and hires thousands of undocumented Haitians. It is a fact that the Haitians are being exploited and underpaid and they also resent this.
About taking up arms literary we can not do that even as a last resource, for the simple reason that we will be attacked unmercifully by the international community as brutal aggressors.
Now if you mean take up arms in another sense like being proactive then I agree
100%. Now is not the time to lay dormant and be aloof regarding this matter.
Regardless of my previous postings, some of them mostly cynical and humorous I am fervently against using violence against the rag tag, poor and defenseless Haitian populace.
What I meant with that, general, was to take the battle to the gov. and business sectors by making them more accountable for their actions. Only by taking a no-prisoners stand on the corruption issue we'll able to make a stride in the resolution of this issue, and many others that are plaguing our country right now.
Easy to say but hard to do.
What we need is a huge apolitical movement much like Union Civica Nacional or the Movimiento Revolucionario 14 de Junio in the immediate aftermath of the Trujillo assassination, that polarized the country and gave the puppet regime of Balaguer ultimatums to change or resign.
Peaceful mass demonstrations are needed and warranted in this occasion.
Do the Dominican people have the will to do that? Will they back such a movement?
Remember the old leaders are dead and gone, and there are no new ones with the ability to stir the masses and motivate the government into taking any sort of action.
New and uncompromised leaders will have to emerge to rescue us from being hostage to the political piñatas that we are witnessing.
These Haitians do the jobs that the Dominicans won't do. The Southern Santiago Province residents will suffer not just a recession but a depression. The only good thing here is that the Haitians were not mistreated. What Dominicans should know, DR is under the microscope and being monitored by international Human Rights organizations.
I have two questions: 1) How many of these folks are Haitian-Dominicans born in DR?
2) What happened to the belongings of these people?
Imagine here in the U.S. if the government asks all illegal Dominican immigrants to pack and leave the neighborhood of Washington Heights right away. They always show on TV in the U.S. that most crimes in that area are committed by Dominican immigrants.
"The Voice of Reason"
actions speak louder than words.
Let me know when S**t hit the fan and Talking is no longer usefull .
I , like the great general Antonio Duvergé Dubal will rise from the ranks of the uneducated
to save my country from the invaders.
long live The Republic, Que viva la Dominicanidad.
Patria O muerte
So what? Should we be trembling because of this? Do they have an army to enforce their BS views? What about the other countries in the world that are committing more serious human rights violations than us? Puh-lease, save us the BS for once. Don't you ever tire of being repeating yourself so much as a broken disc?
There is something you totally forget. You say " Let us not fear the international community...We can retake our country and shape its future". That's the most callous, naive, puerile and careless statement that can bring DR to its knees if implemented. Remember South Africa. What makes it worse, DR relies heavily on tourism, and DR is a member of the United Nations. Therefore, DR has to abide by international laws and rules. The reason why the pressure hasn't come harder on DR is because the outside world sees DR as a black country with different shades. If DR adopts your view, DR's economy will be completely destroyed. Imagine if the international community puts an embargo on DR's products and tourists stop visiting DR, then what will happen? Think my friend. We are living in an interdependent world. Chill out my friend.
"The Voice of Reason"
I invite you to read the post that I just addressed to Bonahan48.
"The Voice of Reason"
What about the Human Rights Organization monitoring human rights abuses in Haiti
What about Human Rights investigating how come a nation that receives billions of dollars in aid is been forced to eat mud
How many Haitians have died, been maimed,been forced to relocated,been exiled,been starved to death ,been jailed under Cedras,Latortue,and the others as_ holes that have pillaged the country.
What about human rights visiting Cite Soleil and asking the stinking elite how can they have people living in these conditions while they are wasting billions of aid money on villas in France, Florida, Dominican Republic.
You belong to the same group of parasites that use the PAS's that have forced Haitians to leave Haiti to endure humiliations and abuses in other countries.
Pa kononen yo(We do not know them )
Pa fot nou (it is not aour fault)
Pa responsa (We are no resposable)
Pa kab separe( We can not share)
Blame the Dominicans
Este Leonel tienes unos ovarios de tamano de la catedral...
Hell no, it is safer to come here and pass the blame.
It is safer to come and make the Dominicans feel guity hoping they will continue to accept the illegal invasion of their country.
In the mean time you can continue to steal and turn Haiti into hell.
As you can see the Dominicans are getting smarter and can your game.
This is why they have asked Haitians to leave quietly. without violence. without human rights abuses.
You can take your human rights activists with you and have them monitor where the real abuses of Haitians are taking place.
CITE SOLEIL not in Santiago
Go away , just go away
These are not Dominicans challenging you, these are Haitians Natif Natal telling you to go back to those who have sent and tell them that we understand their game.
Dominicans are not reponsable to feed Haitians to shelter them,to employ them.
Tell your filthy elite to start sharing some of the aid money that have have been wasting
Things are tough for them also.
Tell those parasites in power stealing the aid money that theDominican',s faucet is shut off.
Crisis666 ,go back to the Haitian hell to serve Lucifer ( AKA 666)
I agree with one thing that there must be measures in place to secure DR borders. But DR can not play blind to the mistreatment of Haitian immigrants.
You say "Haitians have divided us while Haiti is 100% for Haitians.". In this chat room, we spend more time talking about what divides us rather than accentuating our commonality. Ex-president of Haiti Jean-Bertrand Aristide was right. DR and Haiti are a bird with two wings. There are also good and positive stories between the two countries. There is a lot of intermarriages between Haitians and Dominicans here in the U.S., in Haiti and in DR as well. Most Dominicans and Haitians share the same blood line. Now we have two choices: We can proceed with a plan "a la Hitler" or "a la South Africa", or we can learn how to live like brothers and sisters.
"The Voice of Reason"
Go worship the devil 666
This forum is not for Dominicans bashing
Get your own forum, name it HaitiMisery.Today
Then you can blame the Dominicans ,the Canadians , the French, the American except the Haitians for all Haiti.s misery including mud eating
Buzz off to your evil empire 666
Here in this forum we are tring to find a solution that is civil and human for the emotional and finatial stress that Haitians have caused to Dominicans by coming illegally to their country
heshe is a devil worshipper .Can t you tell by hisher nick 666
Is the Haitians migrations is a cause concerned by the Government and the population ? so far the Leonel have not taken any negative steps toward the Haitians in DR that would have resulted in mass deportation ? can you explain why ?
Bohanan48 some of your concerns are valid because the migration is one way and not reciprocal to offset the balance on each side. however with respect to losing your identities it's a long shot and a strech.
No antonio, they weren't granted the chance of mingling with the rest of the population by the fact that Trujillo took special pains in deporting them every time that the cultivation period ended, with military caravans and all. At the beginning of the cultivation period, he would sent another military caravan to look for them on the border towns (with previous arrangement with the haitian authorities of course). The bateyes will came into existence during the Balaguer's admin., when the authorities would be so occupied in robbing the country dry that they didn't care if the haitians remained on the territory or not, provided they didn't engage in "communism".
I am against human rights abuses of any form and shape. Whether it's done to Haitians, Dominicans or any other national of another country.
I reject the notion that DR is helping the Haitians for the sake of helping. On the contrary, DR benefits and enriches itself tremendously from the Haitians hard labor. Haitians are a source of wealth for DR.
"The Voice of Reason"
This proves what an ungrateful bastard you are...Tell that to an unemployed Dominican who used to work in the construction indutry? My house was built by Domincians 20 yrs ago. Now all those workers can hardly feed their family. What makes a Haitian mouth more human than a Dominican? Explain.
ONLY A FEW WEALTHY DOMINICANS BENEFIT FROM CHEAP LABOR...IT'S NO FAIR FOR MOST OF US...CAN YOU ADMIT TO THAT?
the man views gives you the answer as to why Haiti is in such a deplorable state today.
He will never accept the fact that his country is destroyed because of people like him have giving up on his mother land long time ago, he will never reconized the right of Dominicanz to defend their cultural , social fabric and national identity against any outside invaders.
This concepts are aliens to this man and millions like him because playing the victims and commanding pity from everyone is bolted to his DNA.
There is no pride on this sujeto.
I understand that there is a fear in Dominicans. Maybe it's a rational fear.
I have a question for "etiennc". Are you Haitian?, Dominican? or a self-hated individual?
For some reason, Bonahan48 sticks to a position, that I don't agree with, but you are a confusing person. Dear etiennc, Tell me about yourself.
Guys, can you be civil? Once you start cursing and calling names, you lose all your respect. Can you make a valid point without cursing? Can you advance a discussion without losing your cool? Who is the moderator in this room?
"The Voice of Reason"
I understand where you coming from and I respect your concern for your people. But Haiti is not a Dominican problem. I only want to maintain my culture clear of a Haitian presence...I respect human righst but also the law.. Haitian residing illegally in DR is not acceptable and the solution is to excute the right to return, you should help us avoid a genocide...A few years from now we'll read about the second corte, let's prevent that...Dominicans don't go to Haiti to change anything, we don't force anyone to come to the East...I was to respect Haitians, but not anyomore. I just want them to get the hell out. To hell with brotherhood. In this life I was destined to be Dominican and I will put my life at risk if necessary.... Patria o muerte.
Dear Bonahan48,
"Only a few wealthy Dominicans", but they are Dominicans too and they are powerful. They represent the Dominican government, the Dominican private sector, the Dominican elite.
If you understand economy, it's the concept of "supply and demand". In DR there is a great demand for Haitian Labor. Haitian people are hard-working, strong and proud people. What the DR government should do, is regulate the cheap labor and increase the minimun wage so Dominicans can compete with Haitians. It's like here in the U.S. when American peole criticize Mexican immigtrants who work about 16 hours a day and below the minimum wage, I tell them: would you do their jobs? You see, this is a double edged sword.
"The Voice of Reason"
Bonahan48, I would disagree Haitians are not your natural ennemies, your point of view is selfish and fail to understand the implication of our mutual relation on the global front.
1.Dominicans using their strenght and not playing fair with regard to market reciprocity in several front
2. Excessive Dumping of Dominican products
What are you proposing ? what does your government is doing ? beside mass deportation and border closing which we know is not feasible at best an utopia.
What's there to discuss? that your being an haitian-american (and Aristide supporter to boot) will always be in the way to your seeing the rationality behind our POV? Or that for it you will never be able to recognize that the only solution to your problems lies in growing some balls and tackling your country's problems head on? That you'll never cease to denounce the dominican people, no matter how many things we do to give succour to your brethen, because, as ettienc have marvelly put, you belong to the part of the diaspora that he calls the "PA crowd", and which motto is: Pa kononen yo(We do not know them ); Pa fot nou (it is not our fault); Pa responsa (We are not responsible); Pa kab separe( We can not share); Blame the Dominicans
Please, don't quote etiennc. Take some clues from antonioj instead.
Who can answer these questions? Guys, why do you think drug trafficking exists? Why do you think prostitution exists? why do you think illegal immigrants exist? Don't you think it's just because there is a demand for these services? Don't you think those who are supposed to enforce the law benefit from these activities? How many government officials have been implicated in drug trafficking, prostitutions or taking bribes from illegal immigrants crossing the borders?
"The Voice of Reason"
One thing arka can you provide us the information that back up your claim of 2 millions haitians
Please, don't quote etiennc. Take some clues from antonioj instead.
Who can answer these questions? Guys, why do you think drug trafficking exists? Why do you think prostitution exists? why do you think illegal immigrants exist? Don't you think it's just because there is a demand for these services? Don't you think those who are supposed to enforce the law benefit from these activities? How many government officials have been implicated in drug trafficking, prostitutions or taking bribes from illegal immigrants crossing the borders?"
Yes, but one thing is recognizing the existence of these maladies and the market laws behind them, and another different thing is to lie, generalize and defame as you have been doing, implying that dominicans are incapable of realizing the tasks that are now being done by the haitians, when it's a common knowledge that the haitian labour on the DR expanded its areas of influence only at the current decade.
If your government is pro-Haitian and useless, there is nothing I can do. Maybe if you were in their position, you would have seen the light also. Your government knows how beneficial Haitians are to DR economy.
I went to DR a couple of years ago and I was surprised to see the Haitian artists (Sculptor/painter) in DR who have painted beautiful landscapes of Haiti with the Citadelle (one of the world's marvels) and the art gallery wrote on the painting "Dominican Republic".
"The Voice of Reason"
Your government likes things the way they are now. The DR government is part of the status quo. The business sector is in bed with the DR government; therefore, they will always preserve the cheap Haitian labor. On one hand they will tell you that illegal immigration is a bad thing, but privately they will do nothing.
"The Voice of Reason"
Diablo, the perfect proposition. Rob the taxpayer, use illegal labor, marginalized the poor and them use them to accumulate more wealth. Enjoy it while it last, this is going to stop one day.
You shoud denounce the Art Gallery for appropiating your glory. Ask the average Dominican how much they care about Haitian symbols and they will tell you that the last time they ate a citadell they ended up in the hospital...To me the Citadell is a symbol of oppression, why are you so proud of that?
Your goverment likes things the way they are now. The DR government is part of the status quo. The business sector is in bed with the DR goverment; therefore, they will always preserve the cheap Haitian labor. On one hand they will tell you that illegal immigtation is a bad thing, but privately they will do nothing."
You don't have to tell it twice. I have always considered them part of the problem, although, judging by the recent reaction of the population, I think that their profitting time is about to run up. Somehow I don't think that the other provinces would stand idle if they see that the santiagueros keep up their word of maintaining their communities inmigrant-free. The dominican populace is not prone to violent outbursts as their western counterparts, but when they do explode, woe to the people that caused it, cuz' a quick death will be a thousand times preferable than falling into their wrathful hands.
"The Citadelle" keeps the French away (The Napoleonic troops). They were coming back to re-enslave the entire island. The Haitians repelled them with the construction of the Citadelle fortress. As a result, both sides of the island remain free until today.
I have a feeling that you would like to launch a revolution against your government and the Haitian immigrants. Who are you? "Toussaint Louverture"? "Dessalines"?
Can you be more rational instead of being so angry?
"The Voice of Reason"
From: Dominican Republic, Colonial Zone Isabela la Catolica [formerly] Calle Comercio
tonyj still shoveling up there....Go Leafs"
hey GC, I have not heard you... no the snow has melted away go steelers , go leafs
1. The wars of independence both in Haiti and DR were HUGE STUDIP MISTAKE. Slavery was about to die out and those colonies that remain attached to an European center have developed compared to Haiti and DR that remain proud of a big mistake and hungry.
2. The Dominican government is corrupt and needs to be replaced a nationalist coalition with a neo-duartiano approach.
3. The Citadelle served no purpose. You know that.
4. Yes, I willing to launch a revolution to clean and correct wrong policies.
5. I will calm down when DR becomes Haitian free.
I never called you irrational. I said "Can you be more rational?." There is a huge difference.
You want to fight a coalition of DR government + the Haitians. Can you defeat this powerful coalition? Your revolution will create your nightmare "a reunification" of your government and the Haitians. When Leonel was living in the U.S., he used to go to school at Brandies High School with the Haitians. You can see how passive Leonel is with the Haitian immigrants in DR. You are in a category all by yourself. You have to rethink your strategy.
"The Voice of Reason"
crisis666 is here arguing with Dominicans like they hold the key to Haiti's salvation
Like Leionel Fernandez hols the key to Haiti's salvation.
Everybody holds the key to Haiti's Slavationd except the stiking elite and the corrupoted politiciasn (leeches)that are now in Miami on shopping spree or spending their week ends in their mansions in the Dominican Republic
Yep keep looking outside Haiti for Haiti salvation yep keep looking !
yep crisis 666 peep arguing with Lautaro. with me,with Antonioj,with Bonahan48 like we can help Haiti.
Kepp making fun of us, keep typing crap
One thing you need to remember that those who has sent you to distract us will not have time to scape the Armageddon.
The Haitian people will rise up and will solve Haiti problems when they are really desperate and when all the hunger esrape routes like the RD are closed
Armageddon will be televised for you to see it
Armageddon will be televised.
So much a people can take.
You can fool some of the people sometimes , but you can not fool all the people all the time
Fool me once I am dumb fool me twice your butt gets burned
Ettiennc, thanks for keeping the hope alive. You are an example to our youth. This summer I'm organizing a Nationalist Movement in the NorthEast. I beg you to keep fighting. If we don't fight for our country, who will?
Personally, I am starting to feel that Dominicans are very lazy.
Dominican must also under stand that the Haitian illegal are a tool for the rich and agriculture production of D.R.
They must also understand that the people no matter what race, greed or religion will always try to survive. Regardless of your feeling and opinions which means nothing to their hunger.
Why I feel Dominicans are lazy, because they always look for the quick and easy buck.
For example: Who does hair braiding on the beach?
How much do they charge?
How many can they do in a week?
What is the average salary for a Dominican with out a Higher education?
Why haven’t I seen more Dominican doing what seems menial but is very productive?
GEN, Lautauro, GC, POPO, etiennc, old trini, and anybody else-please set this chillaxin21 guy straight. I don't have the time to get into it today.
By the way are you Dominican? Cause if you are, then you must be a lazy bum too.
How old are you guys? 2 years old? I read your posts and you guys just don't make sense. You are saying unrealistic and unattainable things. I can even say that you are babbling now. chillaxin201 has a good point. As I am typing this, I have a Dominican friend of mine here with me right now and she agrees with chillaxin201 100 percent.
"The Voice of Reason"
I am a mature, angry Dominican who is sick and tired of the bs you guys promote online. I used to be a moderate but I changed my position because I don't see Haitians doing anything to correct the situation. I understood that you guys have no choice but to keep sending them to DR. But I don't like a Hiatian presence in DR, the same way I dislike the presence of Colombians. But when I read about the accussations against DR I can't not help it. I am passionate about DR, that's the only place I could conceive as home. A rejection of Haiti gave birth to my identity and now foreigners wants us to take responsibility for a problem Haitians created for themselves.
If what I sound inmature to you I suggest that you go back and read again. There is a logic to my argument. Yes, maybe an angry one. But the point is that we need to raise our voice and force the reversal of what we perceive as a threat to our culture. I'll be happy if the US brings DR Haitians to Miami. Please, do it.
Haitians will still be eating mud, the stinking elite will still be stealing and wasting charity money.
Haitians will still be crawling back in the corver of the night into Dominican Republic to be forced back to Haiti in day light
crisis 666 will have a good laugh he will stiil stick his fingers back in his butt , he will smell them to make sure they stink enough to type more crap and you guys will respond to him . The whole excercise in futility wii start all over again.
Fortunately we have teleodor and I can smell the foul odor of s... coming from crisis666 s posts.
Enjoy the smell guys . I am going out side to breath to some fresh again
DR has the right to do the same. Our problem is the presence of the poorest country in the hemisphere and we must act accordingly.
I believe in self-determination. The current mistaken view that tries to force a particular agenda on human rights will produce the genocides of the future. The stuff that we saw in Rwanda was only the preview of a more chaotic world produce by a ill-informed understanding of human rights.
Some of you, probably well-intended, are creating a climate of hate the fire of which has obviously been lit. Be careful, don't turn people into practioners of hatred. Live, respect and let live...
Again, the analogy is faulty... Some of you sound like "well, I don't have a candy, therefore nobody should get one."
So, Mexicans in US, kind of a problem, not that serious. Haitians in the US, HUGE PROBLEM. Not only in economic terms but for the history between the two sides. Mexicans, in the other hand were the victims of American imperialism.
Again, why do some people in this site think we Dominican are stupid? They keep bringing a faulty analogy to justify the unjustifiable.
Now illegal immgration in the US (Harvest of Empire), Americans should stop illegal migration and deal with their problem as they see it best. I know that blacks and other latinos are hurt by the situation, but again not my problem.
I will respect any decision taken by Americans. They are a soverign nation and nobody should tell them what to do...
I only expect the same in return..
Then Leonel opened up and hell broke loose...The flow bacame permanent because we allowed it. This has to be reversed, is possible, is doable and is the only choice we have....No compromise until Haitian illegal are deported... Common sense to a simple problem.
For the good deeds that Haitians had done for humanity, they should have had a universal passport. I will agree with one thing that, Haitians feel so free that they feel that they have an entitlement right worldwide.
etiennc,
watch your mouth. There is a Domincan lady next to me and she is watching everything that you guys are saying here. Be a gentleman.
"The Voice of Reason"
I seriously believe that you can be a good president for DR. You make sense.
"The Voice of Reason"
The Haitian revolution was a mistake the price of wish you still paying.
When you said "It is unfair for the DR to be asked to sacrifice anything for it's own cultural stability" I laughed.....What the heck do you mean? So, you prefer to destroy DR for the sake of solving a foreign problem. Give me a break. Are you serious?
I must commend some of you, who have the wisdom and patience to debunk some of the myth and the worst cretin in the forum.
Now, on the personal attack. I might be here for a few months, so what does that prove?
Didn't Jose Marti live in the US? Didn't Father Valera long for Cuban from NY?
You will not shout my voice with cheap arguments, c'mmon give us something to chew on...
Marti and Valera were extreme nationalists. But I don't know what position they would take...Such a hypothetical scenario makes no sense...
WE ARE RENPONSIBLE FOR HAITI, Solve the problem yourself.
Whenever you see a Haitian, you should have said "thank you brother" or "thank you sister" because in the 18th century, the Atlantic stage was shared with three democratic revolutions: the American Revolution, the French Revolution and the Haitian Revolution. In 1791, the Haitians accomplished the unthinkable and shocked the world when the rose up and fought bloody battles till they defeated the troops of Napoleon to free the entire island and to create the world's First Black Republic.
The founders of the First Black Republic were: General Toussaint Louverture, the genius; Emperor Jean Jacques Dessalines; King Henri I (Henri Christophe) and General Alexandre Petion. Toussaint Louverture claimed a Universal Human Right to Freedom and Citizenship for all slaves and former slaves worldwide.
Haiti and DR will continue to exist and live side by side.
"The Voice of Reason"
You are the same as your old aliases. You can change your handle but your Haitian supremacists beliefs are the same. You also live in the same Haitian "glorious past", like your past handle that is why you are in denial and so divorced from reality, dreaming about an impossible and even cynical Dominican-Haitian unification. Only a complete idiot or a madman would conjure such a far out hypothesis, and you are both.
Posters that don't know that you are just a Haitian supremacist instigator as well as a cyber terrorist and troll, still try to put sense in your racist head, to no avail.
We have heard time and time again your tiresome ramblings, now with a different handle and a new motto "The voice of discord". Mister you are in denial. Look around you if you have eyes and reread the posts.
You are only doing the Haitian nation a disservice by posting your
lunatic thoughts, with the purpose like a troubled child of doing mishaps, and creating havoc to gain attention.
will be your only companion you can talk to, and ramble about the glorious past and ancient history.
Strange you haven't yet brought up your favorite subject, that is voo
doo and start threatening to put curses on Dominicans, throw your magic powder at them and try make them zombies.
Persons like you have no place in the civilized world, you only bring discord and chaos to friendly environments that allow you to post your contributions to try to change the world for the better.
You offer no contribution hiding behind your new alias and trying to confuse other posters. You are the same o, same o, coward, who like a terrorist guerilla fighter places his bombs and then delights in misery
like the mad troll you are. We got your number now. You are nothing but a huge piece of digested mud excrement. And yes you stink too.
See, in your fuzzy and distorted thinking, like the good nutcase you are, you imagine that you are making a difference and you think that it heightens your sense of importance in the world.
You are nothing but zero, nada, aiñe, you are just a speck of regurgitated and spent cow dung laying full of flies buzzing on top of you.
If you think the Dominican state security apparatus is dormant and looking at their navels and umbilicus all day long, bad mistake. Remember Trujillo trained them. They are reading this post right now and awaiting your response. They have their eye on you, and they ARE watching you, so be careful.
You can crawl back into the hole you came from and don't bother to come back or reply either.
All threads can be traced to their point of origin, Dominicanation, haitian1804, or cruz666.
Or whatever other evil name you conjure, we have got your number, so thread carefully, like you are walking on broken eggshells.
Remember:
YOU ARE BEING WATCHED VERY CAREFULLY!
What's wrong with being proud of your past? Why does DR celebrate its Independence Day every year? Isn't that DR displaying its pride as a nation? Answer me.
The subject in question is Haitians, right? What are you afraid of? Freedom of speech? Freedom of expression? No one can erase Haitian glorious history. What are you? a Tonton Macoute?
The Haitians gained their freedom through self-determination. The Haitians are strong and proud people. They are simply amazing for what they have accomplished by leaving their indelible imprints profoundly inscribed in the annals of world history.
Get over it my friend! Get yourself acquainted with the first amendment:
"The Voice of Reason"
YOU ARE the ex-ton ton macoute and admirer of demented and rabid Aristide.
Create a Haitian Today and go post your venomous remarks there not here.
Obviously you have been unmasked and beaten like and Iraqui prisoner, now we are going to throw the dogs at you to further bite and beat you like a human piñata.
Tell the goons when they are beating you about the first amendment.
You will make their day while they are massacring you with their clubs.
Lautaro, Rubirosa, cibaeño, DominicanChic, guillermone, etiennc, Bonahan48, poponlaburra, and even our respected Puerto Rican brother devin11. Zero in your postings on this pest!
5. Should I thank them for Balkanizing my country and turn it into a bilingual and Afro-centric nation?
6. Should I thank them for bringing back diseases that were eradicated long ago and now we have to face again due Haiti’s failure to provide basic sanitary conditions?
7. Should I thank them for invading my country and driving us to become exactly what we try to avoid in 1844?
1. No, I don’t have to thank anyone. The Haitian revolution was a mistake. Had the island stayed in the hands of Western European there would not be hunger in Haiti. Compare Haiti today with Martinique, or any other French possessions and you will what a bluff your heroic deeds truly are.
2. Should I thank Haitian for killing Dominicans during the six invasions?
3. Or should I thank them for trying to erase my culture when they decided to close educational facilities and churches during the occupation?
You got some nerves...Haitians are sleeping the dream of glory of a falsified past that doesn't let them move forward. Wake up, smell reality and work to build your country. You are a great people, give up dependency and find the way out...Leave us alone.
The Citadelle, the magnificent creation by a delirious self proclaimed King and Emperor who after having "liberated" his countrymen, forced them into building this impregnable fortress, that in order to reach in those days you needed to go up a tall mountain on foot or burro.
Emperor Henri Christophe who favored white European whores around him and because of his many escapades was diagnosed with terminal syphilis, a disease that drove him to end his own life by shooting himself with a silver bullet, as he himself must have believed that he was possessed by devils.
This delirious undertaking of an obvious deranged person was simply ignored by the French as the military concluded that it had no strategic value in the "La Citadelle" and it should just be ignored.
King Henri caused the direct death of over 20,000 "freed" Haitian slaves in the construction of this
idiotic fortress with no military value in tribute to his "delirium tremens" disease that was rotting his
brain
Devin 11 is boriqua and a good friend of the DR.
His postings in the past have always been fair and with level headed opinions.
He is also a lawyer by his own disclosure.
You have a wrong opinion about him. I urge you to get to know him better, he is a good guy and a friend of the Dominican Republic and our best interests.
We want you to be proud to be Haitian in Haiti in your own forum
We want you to be proud to be Haitian when you enough courage and verguenza to blame all the jaclasses included Dessalinnes that have ruined your Haiti.
We wantt you to be proud to be Haitian when you can sit down with other Haitians and figure out how to get Haiti out of this mierda and figure out how to feed your people instead of of abandonning your children to mud eating and begging on the streets of Santiago
The word is Verguenza ! Honte ! Shame !
You may not realize it you have been humiliated here everytime you type your stiking comments typed with your fingers that have been stuck in your butt.
Yes ,revisit your bloody history and eflect .Decide how you can do better that these tyrants who have sold out everything Haiti had possessed
Yes you had a glorious history butt head but what you have to prove for it now ?
Being a public nuisance ?
?Molestar un vecino pias ?
Dessalines was the same tyrant who told his courtisans " PLIMEN POUL LA MEN PA KITEL RELE "PLUCK THE CHICKEN BUT DO NOT LET IT CRY, Steal but don't let anybody see you
And then the misery of Hellaiti began.
The Dominicans have politely and quitely asked Haitians to leave but you and your leeches have brutally forced them to sneak into the Dominican Republic by pure neglect and by making life unbearable for them
At least The Dominicans are more human.
If you had loved Haitians you would have ran your buses to the border and quietely pick them up. Instead you came here on purpose to antagonize the Dominicans, to get them upset expecting them to attack the Haitians.
We understand you cynical game you can not exterminatel the Haitians in Hellati by starving them to death you want the Dominicans to do you dirty job for you.
Your nickname says it all 666 the number of Evil worshippers.
You kill Haitians yourself ,you exterminate them your self and your other evil worshippers.
THE DOMINICANS WILL NOT DO IT FOR YOU , THEY WILL NOT FALL FOR YOUR TRAP.
THEY WILL NOT REPEAT THE PERAJIL TRAGEDY
The Dominicans will continue to ask Haitians to leave their country in a civil and human fashion. When the Haitians reenter HELLATI then ,you can starve them to death or you can exterminate them by any methods of you choice.
Cruz666, you have a right to continue speaking for your people. I hope you won't be a victim of intolerance like I was in the Haitian Xchange. They kicked me out several times for exposing their lies.
Dominicans, save the Republic. That's our duty. You decide you future, don't let anyone shape who you are or what you are to become...
Patria o Muerte
Haitians tried to invade DR 11 times, and they were thrown back.
In 1804 DR was a land of peaceful farmers and ranchers when they were invaded by the alien Haitian army. They were Africans who had been brutalized and brought to Haiti as slaves by their former French masters to work in the sugar plantations.
This huge army thirsting for riches, hungry for stealing and looting and armed with the modern French weaponry impounded from the French including huge cannons,
invaded the peaceful countryside in the eastern part of the island committing atrocities that we never even imagined on the peaceful and unarmed population going about their ranching and farming.
Mass public rapings of women, dismemberment of children in plazas and hanging of Catholic priests in tall trees. Besides their favorite torture of burning alive whomever they chose.
We should constantly mention past history and the Haitian massacres to remind Dominicans of the Haitian's cruelty and brutality.
Lautaro, I agree with you 99%. But let's not get involved in influencing Haitian politics. If we do, we give them an excuse to blame us for everything that happens in east. They simply can see their fault...Your posts are extremely important. Let's keep Haitians at bay.
If Aristide ever returns he will be fried alive, for his own good. He was known to misquote the movie "Apocalypse now" and state:
"I love the smell of the burning flesh of traitors in the morning".
( The original quote was : I love the smell of napalm in the morning)
Haitians will elect another demagogue who sweet talks them, it's none of our business, let them do on their side whatever they want, and sink deeper in the hole of their own creation.
Have you noticed that Haitians are great hole diggers? I mean you tell a Haitian to dig a hole and you have to stop him otherwise he will reach China. It is in their blood I guess and their genetics.
Ok you have the green light for termination with extreme prejudice.
Like marine Lt. General Chesty Puller once said facing the Nicaraguan firing squad when he was a grunt;
"Shoot me if you dare, some people are better off dead. But do me a favor,
leave my body to rot in the ground and don't bury me, so the buzzards can come and eat my flesh,
and then shit on top of your heads!"
After such an eloquent defense the Nicaraguans rebel general laughed out of control and decided that a brave and gutsy man like that shouldn't be killed, and freed him.
He went on to become the most decorated marine in history.
Morale of the story:
" A coward dies a thousand deaths and the brave only one"
What we try and have tried to to in this forum is to try to "cool the heads,"
We all understand that Haitians need to go home.
We all agree whether we are Haitians , Dominicans and what have you in between.
We need to be careful as General Rosos has warned the devil worshipper crisis666 that we don't loose aour temper and do what the sticking elite has been unable to do by staving Exterminate the population surplus.
As we can see some Haitians posters some agents provacateurs have have tried to instigate hate with their insults.
IF they want to talk about the glorious haitian history they can create their own site : hateIam 1804, Hellaiti. Hatetians, Haitaucaust but we here we are trying to solve this conflict (can not feed Haitians and dominicans at the same time) in a civil,human and intelligent way.
Let's not get trapped in an ever ending debate about Haitian history,This site Is Dominican Today.
Aristide has sunk Haiti deeper into the hole more than anyone of all the late Haitian dictators.
Haitian businessmen recall that even Papa Doc with all his brutality was better for the country,
than Titi Aristide.
Aristide made Haiti into a narco state and stole millions of dollars which he safely hid in foreign banks. He uses part of that money for his demented plans to return, buying converts.
If he ever does return, then it will be Haiti's karma of going backwards instead of forward and reminiscing about the past and their infatuation with emperors, conquerors and strongmen.
If he ever returns armageddon will come into effect in Haiti, and we Dominicans better have a big wall in place to stop the flood of refugees coming over.
BTW a real tall border wall like the Israelis are building in Gaza might not be that bad of an idea,
and would provide needed jobs to proud Dominican patriots that will volunteer for that task.
What about staging a war between Haitians and Dominicans then the Dominicans will do the dirty job for them.
Why do you thing we have parasites like crisis666 posting stupidities in this forum just to get Dominicans upset and resentful.
What history can this butthead be so proud about when fater 205 of independance they still can not feed their people.
La verguenza es una emocion social que debe guiarte a cambiar de comportamiento.
Someone who can not experience Shame has either a cynical project or is immature,or is subhuman primate.
Your vision is outstanding. Violence and civil war is EXACTLY what the Haitian elite wants.
They want us to do their dirty job for them. They don't want all those people back in Haiti for sure.
They have said publicly that Haiti is better off with a population of only six million. So they would want to eliminate or have us absorb the 2 million extra Haitians, that they deem unnecessary.
Imagine in DR with ANOTHER 2 million Haitians. An extermination war will certainly erupt.
And we would take the blame and do their dirty job for them, since they have been unable to control high birth rates in Haiti.
Etiennc, there's no such a thing as "in between." In the island we have Dominicans and Haitians only. No hyphanated identity allowed.
But remember that we have a mission to see if we can get the Haitians back to their country while repecting their human dignity
If the stinking elite want to exterminate them they will do it themeselves on Haitian soil.
"I love the smell of the burning flesh of traitors in the morning".
( The original quote was : I love the smell of napalm in the morning)" You r right Genoroso Aristide introduce "Pe lebrun" in Haiti from south Africa in the early of 90. but it s sad, the new ones are not better and they deserve the same treatment. You know the worst thing for an Haitian , is moving to DR. the unhospitality of the Dominicans is monstruous, not only to the Haitians but almost generally to everyone and everywhere.
etiennc happens to be both Haitian and Dominican and proud to be both. Still he does not blind himself to anything but the truth. He is also a respected professional and psychologist.
That is why of the hyphen.
Who rattled your cage and let you out? Must have been cruz666 calling for reinforcements since he was so badly beaten. But welcome anyway, I need other Haitians racist supremacists gluttons for punishment.
If you dislike our hospitality.....then please go back! I would even pay your return ticket in a comfortable tap tap where you can ride back enjoying the perfume of all your Haitian brothers.
And I would even throw in some plastic sandals, shampoo and a bag of all the other things the marchands bring home.
So please, don't even think about it. Take the next bus back.
And seriously if you promise never to return I will pay for your ticket back, tap tap class.
Etiennc I declare you 100% Dominican. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
" You know the worst thing for an Haitian , is moving to DR. the unhospitality of the Dominicans is monstruous, not only to the Haitians but almost generally to everyone and everywhere."
I agree 100% with you, now help you friends in DR get the hell out.
those angry remarks to further document their desired status of "abused and exploited" people.
This is the same technique used by other nations to instill followers for their cause.
We are been baited by these hate mongers to become violent. Just one incident of violence can generate millions of unfavorable opinions against Dominicans.
Remember the bogus video about the black person having his hand cut by a person with a machete.
This horrible video accused Dominicans of inflicting that penance on a poor defenseless Haitian.
Then it turned out to be a Colombian drug terrorist, not even Dominican or Haitian. But the damage was already done to DR and we were being bombarded by millions of angry emails demanding we stop the Haitian violence and persecution.
Will return later.
I never knew that you were a pacifist from reading your past postings.
What happened to the "fumigation" and flame thrower solutions?
If you have had real experience in the art of war, and you have witnessed the horrors that persons can inflict on each other, then you sort of become cured from desiring any more armed conflict.
A true warrior despises war and only resorts to it at the last minute, when all other options have been exhausted and there is an urgent need to:
1. Defend your country from aggressive armed invasion.
2. Defend the rights of Dominican citizens being abused by other countries or protecting the sovereignty of their embassies.
Like what happened with Haiti in 1963.
In the case of armed Haitian invasion then the huge wrath that has been building up for generations of Haitian abuse and pillage of Dominicans will erupt in such a huge righteous tsunami that a holocaust will consume Haiti and will drive them to the ocean, where they will drown since most can't swim.
From: United States
No, there's no such a thing as Haitian-Dominican.
Etiennc I declare you 100% Dominican. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise
"
Thanks but no Thank you, I will no sell my soul my friend I will stay being 101% Haitian.
Talk is cheap, if you are so ardent, what do you not start to petition your government to bring about the changes you so desire, may be you do not want to leave your cocoon nest in the US
Indeed, you are nothing more than a poor fringe illiterate cyberterrorist that you portray so well in the forum shy of a grammy only.
But I don't want a genocide. Far from it, I want peace. And yes I have done a few things denouncing this proHaitian government. Soon I be joining the Union Nacionalista and the FNP, but I'm waiting to see if Pelegrin Castillo brakes with the PLD. I will support anyone who support my nationality and culture.
I respect your love for Haiti, I love my culture too. Can you respect that?
We just want the Haitians out of DR.
anotnioj,
Who invited you to join us?
I am really shocked to see how this chat room has become a chat room of hatred where the moderator has allowed the Dominicans to call for violence, threats and menace. I really believe that this chat room should be monitored by the F.B.I. People here are threatening the Ex-President of Haiti. I have lobbied and now Congressmembers Charles Rangel and Barbara Lee have re-launched an investigation on the way Bush had Pres. Aristide kidnapped. Aristide to return to Haiti soon.
See www.Hayti.net
generoso's threat to Pres Aristide is a serious matter.
Freedom of speech and Freedom of Expression do not equate to Freedom of Violence such as:
Written by: generoso, 7 Feb 2009 10:26 AM
From: United States
Lautaro
If Aristide ever returns he will be fried alive, for his own good. He was known to misquote the movie "Apocalypse now" and state:
... Trujillo trained them. They are reading this post right now and awaiting you...
"Voice of Reason"
Written by: Bonahan48, 6 Feb 2009 8:51 PM
From: United States
Cruz666, my position is simple. NO HAITIAN IN DR, PEACE IN THE ISLAND...WE are willing to accept the return of every Dominican (real ones) who live in the West. We take them. We can trade and support each other, but Haitians in Haiti and Dominicans in DR. I think is a simple and beautiful ideal. I don't undestand why some people get upset. It's simple.
"
You will feel at ease and very comfortable with the skin head and the KKK that will share the same view as you, I wonder what is your stance if you believe what you preach !!
From: Canada, Oakville on terra firma
"You will feel at ease and very comfortable with the skin head and the KKK that will share the same view as you, I wonder what is your stance if you believe what you preach !!"
No. I don't think so. I'm partially black and also have some Jewish blood. I despised racism. But Haitians are simply not welcomed in my country, they bring too many problems: sanitary, legal, etc...Getting them out, will bring some peace to a conflicted nation. The issue is not a racial one. But I've told that Haitians are obsessed with race. I am beyond that, not my problem. The mind is free, think whatever you want...But get the hell out.
I'm not promoting hatred or racism, just our soverign right to determine our future. Why is this so hard to get?
Seriously, think about it. there is no use in quarrelling with haitianoloko, croix666 and the rest of the haters. what we need to do is to be more pro-active in putting pressure on the goverments to do something about the border and to systematically start deporting all " illegal Haitians ".
I personally don't hold any ill will towards haitians, we both share a island and we need to get along for the prosperity of both people. Haitian folklore is implanted in our folklore and that goes both ways, if you don't think so then that means you have never dance to the tune of Feliz Cumbe.
probably one of the most famous merengues of all time.
and make no mistake about it if there is a war i will be in front lines to defend my heritage at all cost.
but the solution is on the hand of the powerful and we all know what that means
Q: Is the American culture also implanted in our culture? I never had a personal connection with Haitians or any element of their culture. I hope to keep that way...
there is also a deep feeling of insecurity and inferiority . rarely acknowleged that typically appear in most haitians reluctance if not inability to recognize , let alone accept tha haiti is a public nuisance
if a nation can t not recognize tha it is a pubic nuisance because of the bahavior of its own people ,this nation is condemned to uninterrupted failure
pa fot ( nou this is not our fault)
pa konen ( we do not know)
pa responsab (we are not responsable)
pa kapab (we can not)
yes this is your fault
yes you know this is your fault
yes you can you treat each other better
yes you are capable of rebuiding you country
having said that i am out
roso , lautaro, antonioj ,and the think tank i am out
i will not read any post regarding this subject
see u soon please do not answer
"pa fot nou"
From: United States
AntonioJ, thank you for the flowers. Call me any name you want.
"But I don't want a genocide. Far from it, I want peace. And yes I have done a few things my nationality and culture.
I respect your love for Haiti, I love my culture too. Can you respect that?
We just want the Haitians out of DR.
"
Like I said I go both way, I am totally immerse in the latin culture, I like DR do not get me wrong, 40
years ago I could have been on your side, but I grow up to be a better person, where you stand were tried in the past on both side, the torch has now been past to a new generation that should seek different approach, DR and Haiti are relatively peacefull to each other besides the Haitian skirmishes in the past. You have not met the hardcore Haitian yet... ( neg sot) your nationalist pale in comparism.
From: United States
No. I don't think so. I'm partially black and also have some Jewish blood. I despised racism. But Haitians are simply not welcomed in my country, they bring too many problems: sanitary, legal, etc...Getting them out, will bring some peace to a conflicted nation. The issue is not a racial one. But I've told that Haitians are obsessed with race. I am beyond that, not my problem. The mind is free, think whatever you want...But get the hell out.
"
Te cogi por la cola, you are very contracdictory to yourself and unsecure, a culture that can not stand by itself does not worth saving, if you despise racism I am glad that you do, we have something in common, now do you accept the fact that you are prejudice in that case, let's see I do not fit the perfect Haitian profile I can blend it, I dig the culture and the language, I make a decent living am I welcome to your circuit of friend or DR ?
Oh I am so sorry to have said that "president Aristide" the demi-God would be fried
alive by their countrymen.
I should have said "ex-President Aristide will be SLOWLY fried in oil by the Haitians for being such a corrupt and cowardly despotic ruler".
Take that to the bank, you wimp.
Charles Rangel being presently investigated for tax evasion and Barbara Lee can kiss my rosy b.tt.
preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
And you wanted them to leave?
That's all that I am asking, my dear Haitian friends, you have come to our land and we have welcomed you with open arms as brothers in need. Now it's time to go home.
Please return you have overstayed your welcome, you can not stay. So please go home.
The sooner the better, don't worry about us, we will be OK without your "strong
arms" and cheap labor, we will survive.
So please go now, the tap tap is waiting. And your country Haiti is waiting for you too.
In the name of all Dominican people, alé, depart, GO, vayase, adios, good by.
From: United States
antonioj
You are missing the point distinguished friend. We don't want 2 million Haitian lawyers and doctors. We just don't want ANY Haitians illegally in DR no matter how much money they have or what their pedigree is.
"
I beg to differ estimado amigo, I do not even need your persmission, I will move now to live a better life in DR and be welcome with open arms and be threated better than the native
I chalenge anyone in this forum to prove me incorrect, if I am wrong I will leave this forum.
We Dominicans that want the Haitians out, so they can return to their own country are not worried about rules and immigration and so forth.
We do not need to build a wall, walls cost money.
The Haitians here are YOUR PROBLEM not ours. They have no right to be here and WE DON"T CARE what happens to them when they go back to Haiti. It is your problem not ours.
It's their choice to go back peacefully, or to go back with a bayonet in their butt, but
either way they must go back!
We as a sovereign country have every right to enforce our laws and deport unwanted immigrants. Period!
So, even when you talk of solutions you want us to pay the bill. Well, I am for some type of infrastructue that might help us keep haitian in Haiti. I also think we should criminalize illegal immigration among other things. There is a lot we can do. So far the agenda has been managed by special interest and the NGOs.
We don't want Haitians in DR. Look everything is possible. A few months ago Obama was a dream to Black America, now is just a reality. A Haitian-free DR is possible. Let us get to work. We can do this. We just need to come together and forget about short term economic gain and look positive side of keeping our culture.
From: United States
Antonio, you dare to go to DR under my government (8 years from now) and you'll spent a few months in La Victoria.
"
Here's my full name antoine armando c joseph do not be shy, put me in your not wanted list
you may the one sorry , perhaps cleanning my shoes or open up the door.
I guess no one,,, have found me to be incorrect and I can still be in the forum.
In a light note my wife think I have a cyber girlfriend, I promised her for new year to stay away from DT for some reasons I end up having myself drawn one some of the subjects being debated
We don't need to provide you with anything. We don't need no stinking badges sir.
Your wish will become reality soon. The long lines of Haitians walking back to Haiti the same way they came to DR, or going back in tap taps, Dominican buses, private cars, ships, airplanes et all will be huge.
What a wonderful sight, how liberating for Haitians and for Dominicans. What a wonderful wish. Haitians going back to their beloved country and we Dominicans finally having the DR all to ourselves, without having to worry about the disease that Haitians bring, the unemployment, the competition for menial jobs.
I will miss the wonderful Haitian fruit vendors in their bicycles, they can stay if they want.
From: United States
Antonio, there is 15000 Dominicans in Haiti, productive worker. None begging and demanding special treatment. Compare that with 1.7 million Haitians in DR, 250000 of them rightfully employed in jobs that should be in the hands of Dominicans. Just get out.
Please provide figures and back them with link, I will not trust any figure from a nationalist like you, your normal behaviour would be to decrease the amount of Dominicans residing in Haiti while increasing the number of Haitian in DR, actually I disagree not the majority of DR see Haitians as pre-emptive threat most see them as a manageable threat that need to be to address( un mal necessaire) however people like you, ondevert, and the gang of illusionist that was endoctrined in the type of philosophy that you are preaching will probably be accordance with you.
folks you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee to realize the boat was missed when the slaugthering of poor Haitians did not provide the result intended, this was then, and now this is today a totally different ball game and different approach and cooperation are needed for the better of both countries, there have never been a question some repatriations is needed.
Now with respect to the elite Haitians immigrants doctors, ect and millionaires not being being welcome to DR you are only fooling yourself and being totally out touch with the pulse of your country and his history, you have inherited a class society that compare pretty well to colombia in that respect.
From: United States
antoine armando c joseph, you are in my list...We agree to hate each other. Done deal!
"
I love all Dominicans and Haitians, however I disagree with alot of Haitians and Dominicans as well.
It is really not that complicated, my friend if I may say so. Like I said before, there are a lot, many, muchos,
Haitians OVERCROWDING the DR portion of the island.
No harm intended, no aggression desired, no ill feelings. Plain and simple we just want you Haitians to go back home.
It is really very simple, just go back home.
Thank you.
PS The "slaughtering" of Haitians was done by dictator Trujillo in 1937. That was ......let me see....
72 years ago. If you want to sue us for that I think the statute of limitations has expired, and anyway I believe Trujillo was forced to pay compensation for that regretful episode.
SOURCE: http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/domrep.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Haitian women in Haiti complain a lot about how Dominican women prostitues who have invaded Haitian residential neighborhoods, where conservative Haitian families are raising their children. Without shame those Dominican women sell their bodies openly. Despite these gross violations, Haitians always go through legal channels to solve this grave problem. They never use violence againt those Dominican prostitues. On both sides of the island there are problems to be solved by the Haitian goverment and the Dominican govenment.
"The Voice of Reason"
This forum is good. We are learning from one another.
"The Voice of Reason"
However, now the reserve is taking place. Haitian women are becoming competitive in prostitiution rings in DR. 4 months ago a. Some europeans prefer them more exotic, more African.
From: United States
However, now the reserve is taking place. Haitian women are becoming competitive in prostitiution rings in DR. 4 months ago a. Some europeans prefer them more exotic, more African.
"
Same in cuba the german have a preference for the darker women, with respect to women they should be respected regardless, they are the cradle of humanties, and should be treated as the queen that they are and offer protection mutually on both side of the isle.
May God bless them all.
From: United States
They, along with Haitian migrants, were responsible for the initial spread of HIV in DR.
"
Check your facts arakatype you are treading on thin water or you are purposely obsequience of the facts a simple google search could assist you, it's a shame in the day of the internet
Do a little research. Haitians and Dominicans became victims of this tragedy. I'm not pointing fingers. I just giving you the facts.
From: United States
Actually I had a conversation with epidemiologists the University of Florida who told us about his work in DR"
Arkatype you are doctor now too, can you share the name of the doctor and the research paper and the type of HIV subtype gene that are common, now which respect to origin please point me to any proven independent studies published, reviewed and peruse by his peers on any respectable scientific journal.
Do not worry I will wait .....
My conversation with the Doctor was informal and quite interesting. Look I'm saying that Haitian migrants and Dominican prostitutes brought the disease from Haiti. That's makes a lot of sense given the circumstances. The mapping put the first cases in areas of high concentration of Haitians. Pure luck????? I doubt it.
Dispelling the Haiti HIV link myth
http://www.williambowles.info/haiti-news/2007/1107/haiti_aids.html
http://www.haitiinnovation.org/en....an-diplomatic-visits-dispel-myths
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/hi....en-world-14647.html#comment-25832
From: United States
I don't undestand your point. If you want was to think that HIV did not originate in Haiti it's Ok . I got you. There's no conclusive evidence...Besides, HIV is not part of blame game. That it came to DR first throu the migratory wave from Haiti there's no doubt about it, but what matters is that humans are suffering...When you get infected the virus doesn't care if you have bicolor or tricolor flag...Let's fight against HIV...Who cares where it came from?
"
I am totally in accord with you amigo mio, if I can borrow this from Obama we can agree to disagree but still be respectfull to each other, hope one day Haiti can be as beautiful as DR history have shown it was, until then a la prochaine chicane mon frere, soy tranquillo como un camello
You see, for many years, we had less of a problem until migration got out control and NGOs began screaming slavery all over the world. As Dominicans, we have no choice but to react. I hope one day we going to sit at the table of peace and be able to look eye to eye without the shame the exercise of violence brings
Stop banging your heads against the wall. Stop this auto-discrimination. Stop pointing fingers senselessly. The aids virus has been in existence for about 100 years. It does not come from Dominican Republic or Haiti. American/European tourists brought it the island of Hispaniola.
________________________________________
NEW YORK — The AIDS virus has been circulating among people for about 100 years, decades longer than scientists had thought, a new study suggests. Genetic analysis pushes the estimated origin of HIV back to between 1884 and 1924, with a more focused estimate at 1908.
Previously, scientists had estimated the origin at around 1930. AIDS wasn't recognized formally until 1981 when it got the attention of public health officials in the United States.
SOURCE:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/200....ists-trace-the-orig_n_131056.html
"The Voice of Reason"
Antonio, we share the same island. Things have gotten out of control and we all are responsible. I want a solution soon, a peaceful one. Trust me. DR is essentially a mulatto country and Haiti has a lot of us...I remember a few years ago I met this Haitian girl who lived in Washington Heights and never imagined she was Haitian until she told me...Her family lived among Dominicans and they got along pretty well. I don't think of myself as White or Black, but when I see a Haitian mulattoe I instantly recognize the historical link that unites us. It's a weird felling, strange.
A new record has been set on DT, clearly because a new precedent has been set by the people of Santiago. I believe this is the proper example to follow by communities that are bothered by Haitian immigration, and not the barbaric ways of Neyba and Guayubin.
Take a look at what we've done: http://www.dominicansforthetruth.org
By the way, print versions of these letters also go out, so it's not just lost in the vacuum online. Collaborators are welcome.
I will send you an email with my personal data, probably tomorrow. Just let me know how I can contribute and help the cause. Thank you for your work, we need to stop the defamatory campaign and the migratory wave that led to it. I will be joining your efforts. Thanks, again.
Shame on you. Haiti does not need an army. What did the army do after Trujillo cut the heads of about 40,000 Haitians? NADA.
An army of thugs like Cedars, Michel Francois, Biambi and Co that used to consume 40% of the government's budget for nothing. Under Aristide there was ZEO TOLERANCE in Haiti without an army. Under Aristide we had no kidnapping, no killing, no raping, no out of control drug trafficking, . When racist Bush realized that Aristide was celebrating Haiti's 200 years of independence in 2004, he and a small group of Haitian traitors plotted a coup against Aristide. Despite all the accusation and lies about Haiti's Great Hero Aristide, he still remains the most popular person in Haiti, which can be estimated between 75%-85%.
Down with Tonton Macoutes! Down with Papa Doc! Down with Baby Doc! That money can be used to help Haitian immigrants returning from foreign countries.
Aristide allies barred from running for Haitian Senate
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2009/02/06/8294926-ap.html
From: Canada, Oakville on terra firma
dreamer 666
Aristide allies barred from running for Haitian Senate
Guy Philippe, whose rebel band helped oust Aristide in 2004. He has been living in hiding and is wanted in the U.S. on drug trafficking charges.
Guy Phillipe was trained by the United States Special Forces in a Dominican military base. Those charges will one day go away. Or they will screw him like carra de Piña
“Not all”.
They try to make a “quick buck” I am not in anyway pro Haitian. I am just letting you know why these things happen. Haitians are a tool for the rich to get richer; they do not want the Haitians or their offspring to become Dominican citizens because it does not benefit us Dominicans. Just like in the slave days, the masters and the whites did not want the salve to learn anything, the masters where just contempt with cutting of the sugar and nothing else.
I believe we should NOT allow the offspring of Illegal Aliens “Haitian or other” to become Dominican citizens. Even thou sometimes I feel this is wrong because it has kept a young man from becoming a major league baseball player. I believe that Haiti should recognize this Dominican territory born Haitians. The Haitian government should give them papers so if one day they have the chance to leave the island for a better life.
They have dumped thousands of poor Haitians on Dominican soil,
Here in this forum Dominican Today u Dominicans are trying to solve the Haitians problem that has became your problem and guess what, the same filthy elite have sent their agent provocateurs to this site to insult, tease,blame u and to remind u of the wrongs that Haitians have inflicted upon Dominicans during Haitis occupation.They want to irate u and force u to harm Haitians living in RD
Then they will call upon their biased human rights activists to demonize u
These immature folks will never grow up and take resposibility for the future of Haiti as long that u Dominicans offer their poor:food,shelter,work,and the dirty elite a forum(Dominican Today) to talk crap
U Dominicans must understand this cynical game and ignore them
La manera de tratar a una gente sucia,parasita y "SIN VERGUENZA" is to fart in their faces
http://findarticles.com/p/article....b6634/is_200004/ai_n26501856/pg_1
El Siglo newspaper highlighted in its February 20 issue a little known aspect of Haitian-DR relations. Haitian businessmen have invested over RD$1 billion (more than US$62 million) in the DR since 1986. The report on Haitian investments points to companies such as Helados Nevada (ice cream), Frutina (flavored water), Agua Fonbella (potable water), Jugos Antillas (juice products), Bohio Agroindustrial (spices and condiments), Kawas Mercantil (exporting company), Remesadora Cam (remittances), Transporte BOULOS, Mariesh Industries ...ectt
Some of us want to micro manage other with bigger open view to the future want to macro manage, let's not fool ourselves there are also positive angle too the Haitian and DR relationship that need to be known and advertised beside immigrations and other frictions.
believe we should NOT allow the offspring of Illegal Aliens “Haitian or other” to become Dominican citizens. Even thou sometimes I feel this is wrong because it has kept a young man from becoming a major league
"
Mon bon ami, I would beg to differ with you for the simple fact that the offspring of mixed union Dominican and an Haitian are still illegal as per your constitution. In 2005, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights issued a ruling denouncing the Dominican government’s discriminatory practices and demanding that the government take the necessary action to address this problem
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p....tion/1/7/7/2/2/p177223_index.html
I am all against illegal immigration, however we would agree to disagree on the technicallity and on the semantics.
It is wonderful about the wealthy Haitian entrepreneurs investing in DR, they obviously are looking for a safe and sound return on their moneys. So are the many Americans, Spaniards, British, Venezuelans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans, Brazilians, Canadians, French, Italians, Swiss, and other nationalities that invest in DR. It is solely good and sound business and has nothing to do with mass illegal immigration.
Antoine, you will be most welcome if you desire to come and reside in DR, count me as your friend here. BUT, and is a big but, that's not the point.
The point is that if you do decide to come to work, reside or retire here you would do everything possible in your knowledge to make your stay to abide by all the laws here. You will get your residence papers to normalize your stay, you will get Dominican government ID (cedula) that is needed for all transactions, even cashing a check.
But even if you did all that, the DR government or any other country in the world will let you bring to DR, an additional 1.5 million to 2 million more of your compatriots even if they were to become as solid residents as you were.
It is a question of national identity, civil studies, social customs, historical ramifications, language, as well as nationalism.
Now if all your 1.5 to 2 million compatriots wanted to become citizens of the DR, besides having independent means of support, studying our history, passing a test,
and speaking the language, just like the immigration rules of other countries, including Haiti. Then I would say: Well let's think about that and maybe put it to a vote to let all the other citizens in the DR decide. ( Continued 5 comments below)
From: United States
antonioj
Thanks for the offer I am already excited, I can wait.... I am Dominican at heart man
housing, transportation, and private health services. We would still have to provide security for those 2 million new residents. We would need to program increased importation of more fossil fuels, provide more electricity, import more cars and spare parts, increase public and private transportation, telecommunications infrastructure,
and many other services that we now take for granted.
So with your simplistic approach the problem is not even beginning to be solved.
Now instead of financially independent and healthy, take those two things away,
and then on top of that add the burden that they speak mostly patois, they are voo doo followers and they are here just as a necessity but they prefer to be in Haiti.
Then you have a disaster and a refugee problem that could implode at any minute.
And this is the situation now that the DR is being gratuitously burdened with by the irresponsibility of the Haitian government as well as the international community.
And this is unfair, unjust and more so even criminal to both sides.
How would you feel if 2,000,000 sick, poor and unemployed Dominicans invaded Haiti? If the situation was reversed?
How would the USA deal with 20% of their population or 60 million immigrants were poor, sick and unemployed illegals?
There would be a civil strife and riots for sure.
The days of peace and love are long gone forever, it's a tough world out there,
and Haitians should not be now biting the hand that fed them.
Put yourself in our place.
1. Haitians invest in DR
2. Haitians make money in DR, then ship their benefits to foreign banks
3. How much money have they made out of the Dominican consumer? A lot given the high spread in DR retail and banking system
4. How much interest have they collected from our banks? (Paid by Dominicans borrowers)
5. It does matter, money is money and we do not discriminate. We can use more Foreign Invest.
6. Antonio, you should be happy that we have no prejudice against foreign investment
7. IN HAITI A DOMINICAN WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUY A PIECE OF LAND LEGALLY. THE LAWS LIMIT FOREIGN OWNERSHIP OF LAND AND LITTLE VALUE FOR THE RULE OF LAW
8. What is your point in bringing the this fact, Antonio? What exactly are you excusing?
From: United States
The best example of managed migration is the case of Palestinians working in Israel. We can use a similar system. The Israeli need some Palestian workers, they come, do their work, get paid but don't mix with the Jews. I really like that model. It my not look like panacea, but is an excellent example of how to groups can have some level of cooperation. Even at a time of war, they still find ways to use excess labor. Haitians working in DR should be limited to no more that 250000. I think this is doable
"
This is an interesting proposal, bohana48 you want have a great country man, you can not legislate mixing of people that happen ex south africa, with respect to the number of Haitians workers let the market decide ...
From: United States
Because 2,000,000 more inhabitants even if they healthy, financially independent, be able to speak our language, to learn Dominican history and customs would still be a burden on our water infrastructure, garbage services, ornate, education, food supply,
"
So true, we are back to square one again,Generoso that goes back to family planning which is the root cause. limited resources and demographic explosion mainly on the western side is a threat to peacefull co-existence. This is one area I think your government should get involved and be pro-active.
I agree 100% with letting the market decide. To set an arbitrary figure based on assumptions or hearsay is ridiculous and not very business friendly.
To use the Israeli-Palestinian model would be counterproductive as well, as the Israeli model is cruel to Palestinian workers treating them as second class citizens with no rights. This is not acceptable either.
Dominicans are not Israelis, we are a kind, friendly and warm nation, to institute a discriminatory policy like that in our nation is unacceptable, we are forgetting how our immigrants are sometimes treated as lesser persons by other foreign governments including Puerto Rico, and the USA.
We should not emulate mean, discriminatory and racially bias practices.
I see why you guys don't like the Israeli example, but put it in our context. We are the victims, not the oppresor.
Family planning and population explosion is a big problem. I would say is a HUGE problem.
But it is not the subject matter. The subject matter is the 2 million illegal Haitians adult and children that are already here and we want to send them back home. And should return home. Capice?
Again regarding over population in Haiti mainly as well as DR, this again is a matter of irresponsibility of both governments to deal with that and face the dogmatic opposition by the religious zealots that oppose methods of birth control, condom usage, and instead advise "refraining from sex", or abstinence the most stupid and naive parameters. It is like telling a child you will leave alone in a room not to eat the chocolate cake in front of him.
The religious groups are to blame as well as the two government's lack of courage to face them head on, since they are such a powerful lobby.
From: United States
antonioj
I agree 100% with letting the market decide. To set an arbitrary figure based on assumptions or hearsay is ridiculous and not very business friendly
"
Generoso I think you are missing the point, he's referring to migrant seasonal worker, they have that system right now in the us and canada with the mexican and the jamaican
That seasonal migrant worker system is used by highly organized and developed societies, we are neither. We have to be realistic as we don't have the necessary conditions to enforce such a system.
Here within minutes once the system is operating the corruption mafias will open their signs outside the window of the DR:
"Open for business" only pesos are needed.
With a country with such a high degree of corruption rampant throughout, enforceability of such a system would be unlikely and improbable.
From: United States
antonioj
Family planning and population explosion is a big problem. I would say is a HUGE problem.
But it is not the subject matter. The subject matter is the 2 million illegal Haitians that we want to send back home. And should return home. Capish?"
Generoso you are placing the cart before the horse, before considering such action can we start a least by determine:
1. The actual number of illegals (I see figures from 500k to 1millions, 2 miliions)
2. Who qualify to stay as Dominicans under what rules and regulations
3, Establish a process to become legal under established term
4. Amnesty
5. Time frame for repatriation
In your very organized obviously scientific mind you are prescribing a methodology which may or may not be the best, or the most adequate. But I agree with the basic parameters.
The final step by step process will be determined by the Dominican authorities once the will to solve this problem is decided and the rules are implemented.
I have to go now but as usual it has been a pleasure.
Whenever you decide to come to DR and visit, send me a private message.
How come Marc Bazin never became President of Haiti? He had all the qualities of a technocrat, knew government and was perceived as honest.
What happend to him?
I will share my opinion regarding Marc Bazin.
He has no qualifications to runtoday s Haiti,
Haiti needs a pragmatic CEO just like Obama and Bloomberdg the mayor of New York te reverse years of hate and neglect
Bazin is from the same breed like Latortue,vain,revengeful, antagonistic,tendency to form clique inatead of team, supersticious ( one will see him consulting with voodoo priest for good luck amulets)
Bazin has no leadership qualities .
I am glad that you guys have taken the high road and are posting serious reflexions on how to best resolve the Haitian nuisance on Dominican soil.
Bravo !!!
Some of you may think that I am to hard on these parasites that have used this forum to instigate dissentions between Haitians and Dominicans.I have no patience for these cynical comedians whose grand parents had sold Haiti declaration of independance to a private collector and they have no verguenza to come here and call themeselves Haitian 1804
New York library posesses more than 8000 historical documents and articrafts.
What they did not burn ,they sold.
The gold sword of Emperor Soulouque was taken from the National Museum and sold by the Duvalier family
And coutry that burns or sells its past is a country condemened to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Haitians need to stop of this vain patriotic gymsnastics and begin to act like mature people and stop destroying their country and laying the blame of some other countries.
I hope that u guys(ROSO included) will not stop rallying and caling for Haitians to grow up stop the :
PA FOT NOU ( it is not our fault)
PA KONNEN ( we do not know)
PA RESPONSAB ( we are not responsab)
It is your damn fault ,n u r responsable to fix Haiti
Dominicans claim that there are 2 million illegal Haitians living in the Dominican Republic. If you deduct the 2 million Haitians from the 9.5 million inhabitants of the Dominican Republic, then the net population of those accepted as Dominicans will be 7.5 million. The question is when comes producing its annual budget, does the Dominican government take in consideration a population 9.5 million or just 7.5 million people? Does the Dominican government play with the numbers only when it’s convenient?
Misery doesn’t have border. While Haitian migrants cross the porous border into the Dominican Republic to find work; illegal migrants from the Dominican Republic cross the Mona Passage in high sea of sharks infested water each year to go to Puerto Rico to find work and a better life.
"The Voice of Reason"
This is someone telling the Dominicans that they must provide for Haiti's poor
Talking about people SIN VERGUENZA !
This is shinning example of someone sin verguenza
As Preval has said "PA RESPONSAB, NAJE POU NOU SOTI"
He is not responsable ,Haitians must swim out of their poverty, Meaning : cross the Haitian Dominican border . swiim to Florida, The Bahamas,( except Cuba)
This is a Haitian head of state telling his country men to swim, to cross borders for food ,shelter and work.
Do you see the parasitic reflexes ,the immaturity ,the irresponsability of present leaders( Preval ) and future leaders ( cross666) ?
From: United StatesAntonio, one have a quesiton and it got nothing to do with the current debate. But you are Haitian, help me understand something:
How come Marc Bazin never became President of Haiti? He had all the qualities of a technocrat, knew government and was perceived as honest.
What happend to him?
"
I had great hope on Jean Dominique, Bazin, Boulos and Charlito if you understand Haitian politics
the very educated have probabaly voted for the candidates above, the masses still uneducated. can be bought for as little a bottle of "clairin" these people consist of the majority and they are the type people that Aristide the little monster prey on, The diaspora that could in effect counter this are not allowed to vote.
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it??
From: United States,
... It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is my corner! You go over there! Como'n people grow up, and realize that we share one island together and whether you like it or not, we are Dominican/Haitians & Haitian/Dominican.. And we need to put our differences aside ...
From: United States,
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it?? Haitians Or Dominicans = Brothers & Sisters! We are not just neighbours, we are so half Dominican & half Haitian, that it really doesn't matter. It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is my corner! You go over there! Como'n people grow up, and realize that we share one island together and whether you like it or not, we are Dominican/Haitians & Haitian/Dominican.. And we need to put our differences aside and work together for the better of our countries, and for the better of our Island. Now, don't be dissing Wyclef! He's done and is doing a lot for his country! More than we can say for some of our biggest money making celebrities. You all need to read a little , do a little research before you go crazy. Think of what you like to say, before you open your mouth and offend others. All Races e Welcome here..
"The Voice of Reason"
From: United States,
Think of what you like to say, before you open your mouth and offend others. All Races e Welcome here..
"The Voice of Reason"
From: United States,
And we need to put our differences aside and work together for the better of our countries, and for the better of our Island. Now, don't be dissing Wyclef! He's done and is doing a lot for his country! More than we can say for some of our biggest money making celebrities.
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it?? Haitians Or Dominicans = Brothers & Sisters! We are not just neighbours,
From: United States,
...half Dominican & half Haitian, that it really doesn't matter. It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is my corner! You go over there! Como'n people grow up, and realize that we share one island together and whether you like it or not, we are Dominican/Haitians & Haitian/Dominican..
"The Voice of Reason"
From: United States,
People, I don't know how come you just don't get it?? Haitians Or Dominicans = Brothers & Sisters! We are not just neighbours, we are so half Dominican & half Haitian, that it really doesn't matter. It makes me very upset to see all this bickering! Acting like you are 5 years old! NO, this is ...
I have to give you a lesson in Haitian politics: Haitian Politics 101: Haitian people can not be bought for money. You’ll find a few & military thugs like Cedras, Michel Francois (drug dealer) who will conspire with the Haitian elite and the Republicans to overtrhow constitutionally and democratically elected president of Haiti (Jean-Bertrand Aristide). If Haitians could have been bought for clairin Boulos and Apaid would have been president by now because those folks have money.
Bazin is not a popular person in Haiti and he is not trusted. Bazin is the product of the Republicans. Haitian people prefer a president just like Barack Obama and Aristide, who can lift a country from the bottom up.
“The Voice of Reason”
Also, to who are you directing your comment is it to cruz666 or someone else? Because on one posting I hear the voice of congeniality, you ask about Bazin yet on another post you sound angry," the world see us black, that's their freaking racist problem. no mixing, patria o muerte, cono."
By the way, for the record, I am on your side, but my approach is somewhat conservative, more middle ground and less extremist.
Thanks
From: United States
Why not? I just can't see one at this moment. But the parties have plenty of women who fit the bill. Milagros Ortiz was close to the presidency, but at this point she's too old and I think Miguel Vargas is likely to become the nominee again.
"
You see what Putin did in russia, it is remotely possible that Leonel's wife may run or would Leonel seek another 4th term.
You wish to cater to Haitians, to pamper them and you get upset when they invade your country.
By paying so much attention to their plight instead of their natural greedy leaders and parasiti elite
you are inviting them to seek solace in your country.
Don't Dominicans have enough problem on their own to worry about the Haiti bloody story?
No wonder Haitians are called the most immature people on earth.
From: United States
There is a problem here. When one posts something, it's repeated several times. Please correct the problem.
Thanks
"
Need to be patient the server is overwhelmed with request, just click once ONLY
Regarding Dominican women in politics. Well Milagros Ortiz Bosch would have been a much better
president than Hipoloco Mejía but was buried by Hipoloco and might be too old now and tired.
There was always a rumor going around that she liked to indulge in spirits frequently.
And the actual president's wife. She is a lawyer and charismatic and some are saying that Leonel is grooming her to become the candidate for the next election in 2012. Sort of like Cristina Kirschner in Argentina.
Other than that there are no big stars in the deck as far as women are concerned. Personally I think a woman president would be a good thing for the country. But many other political analysts
have said that in a macho country like DR a woman will never be elected. And she will lose against any man, which is a stupid commentary.
If the right woman comes along she has as good of a chance to be elected as any man.
You never reveal who you are. You are Dominican? Haitian or ...? You are the most confused person in this forum. Why can't you answer this simple question?
"The Voice of Reason"
Listen Mr.Voice of Discord etiennc is a member of the "brotherhood", and is fully protected from pests and vermin like you chimeres and Aristide turd columnists.
Please answer a question for me since we know you are in contact with ex-president Aristide.
And don't get paranoid now, I don't mean any harm.
When the Haitian mobs were looting Aristide mansion after he left the country, how come your glorious leader "forgot" over 100,000 US dollars in one of the safes at his mansion in Petionville, that the mob's found and displayed to news reporters all that cash old, moldy and maybe useless from the humidity?
He just plain forgot they were there? Or he had so much cash stashed away it didn't matter to him, a hundred thousand here.....a hundred thousand there.
I am just curious. I mean I certainly even if I had alzheimer's wouldn't forget where I put that much money.
Tomorrow when they start cleaning all the posting duplicates and mistakes the count will probably go down, but it will be great if we hit 400.
There are a lot of posters missing, must be because it's Sunday.
about the Haitian revolution being a mistake the elite, increasingly the students and the light skin mullatoe have always felt that way I share the same sentiment as well, although this is something that make Haitian proud, at the end of the day they have completely destroy the dream. I do not want to be a revista however the cost of independence has somehow shutter the dream of a united Haiti & Haiti espanol, would you agree if Toussaint was successful thing may have been different than what it is today, let me know your thought. Lat, you are back this is for you too, I am still waiting for your email.
Remember that in 1843 and 1844 Haiti was in turmoil and busy with internal struggles and wars between blacks and mulattos.
Read "the Fall of Herard" by historian Frank Moya Pons.
http://www.diariolibre.com/noticias_det.php?id=187809
But the truth is evident, independence of Haiti in 1791 and later wars and inept and corrupt rulers caused Haiti to go from the richest colony in the Americas to the poorest independent nation.
Look at other French possessions of "Ultramer" like Guadaloupe and Martinique, St. Barths and half of St. Martin, all totally prosperous with a standard of living much higher than DR.
And then look at independent but rag tag and despondent Haiti, a beggar failed state. Was the price of independence from the French too costly?
Kudda for crisis666.
You have made yourself Haitian think tank d'honneur.
You have done a great job.Now since the futrure of Haiti depends of u do not get upset when the Haitians cross the borders to seek solutions for their in dividual problems.
It seems that the 205 years old Haiti solution rests in your hands
The Haitian filthy elite can contlinue to say
Pa konnen(do not know)
Pa kapab fe anyen (we can' t do anything )
Pa we(we do not see)
Pa tande(we do not hear)
Pa konprann (we do not understand)
As Preval would say " NAJE POUN SOTI "Swim to get out
I have tried to warn u of this cynical game,the more I warn u the more engaged you become.
Well u have taken over the role of the stinking Haitian elite, they will gladly let u do it.
You know that I hold you in great esteem, and it is obvious that you are angry with the Haitian exploiters like Bennett that even sold the Haitian's blood to make money, a true vampire.
But all is not to be blamed on the elite, that will be irresponsible as well. There are other factors into play.
The elite carries their share of the burden, but also the inept and corrupt politicians,
the military, The French, the Americans and even the Dominicans for being so aloof
and disconnected from Haitian current affairs.
The four of us are having an intelligent conversation, etiennc, we are not threatening anyone here.
"even the Dominicans for being so aloof and disconnected from Haitian current affairs." What do you mean? Dominicans have nothing to do with the course of history Haitians have carved for themselves. You made a nice list, but you forgot one group" THE HAITIAN PEOPLE, THE MASSES...
They continue to practice superstitions and continue to choose the worst type of leadership. They blame others for their fault and cry when they just have to look inside to find the culprit. Please, get us out that list. We are the victims of Haitian irresponsibility, nor the perpatrator of any historical crime.
These people are aware of a reality that we the think tank here shoul have been aware of.They do not want to get blamed for harmind Haitians and they have proceeded in a calmy fashion to get Haitians out.
That was the premise of this article , We should have applauded them and continue to cool the heads , try to calm the ones that have been calling to take up arms to get Haitians out by force.
What has happened the elite (Haiti is dived into two groups the peasants and the elite- the elite is the child in kindergarden that is learning to say mama to the corpuupted intellectuals, the peasants the campesinos forced to eat mud.
Like I said the elite has succeded into diverting our attention and engaged us in a study of Haitian civism and the history of Haiti.
We have missed the opportunity to do our job that is to calm the spirits
Bonahan48, you have debated Pichardo on Haitixchange can you for the benefits of the forum give us your point of view he's the totally on the left as you are to the right...
You're right, there's no way out, United MEXICAN States of America.
Why do you have to respond for etiennc? Is he your zombie? Now to answer your question about where Aristide found the money. Aristide wrote about 20 books and he speaks more than 10 languages. Aristide is one of the top 5 intellectuals of all times worldwide. Aristide is a money machine. He was once paid to $300,000 to conduct 2-hours seminar. Haitians have been producing geniuses for centuries. Now we have a young Haitian-American Patrick Gaspard, who has been appointed as White House Political Director by President Obama. Patrick Gaspard was the genius behind the scene and the quiet strategist that helped Obama to propel to the presidency of the U.S. . Haitian-American Patrick Gaspard (maybe another Toussaint Louverture) may become the 2nd Black U.S. president. Just stay tuned. For the record Pres. Obama wants to see more Haitian immigrants in the U.S.
http://jonjayray.wordpress.com/20....a-wants-more-haitians-in-america/