We pwned them in each battle.

Too bad , they did a better job at running this country except the big T and her was 25% H.

Do you consider forcing us to pay their stupid debt to the french (for a war in which we didn't participate in the first place), closing our universities, and putting restrictions to international commerce as signs of good administration, BASTA? You'll excuse me, but, it's not too early for you to be high on crack?

Lautaro
Basta, another Haitiano troll hits the dust.
I a getting low on insecticide from all the fumigating, we have another HateIam invasion now?
They are sure coming out of the woodwork and even daring to comment cynically on our patriotic dates.

Why can't they just give up, general? They know that they're not dealing with kindergarten kids here, so they might as well cut the attempts early, just to save face.

Basta:

Stupid comments from mediocre people like you is what makes Haitians so disliked and hated in Domininican Republic, I love being xenophohic when I see comments like Yours!!

Basta
Why do you live in DR if you feel that the H government does a better job??? Why don't you live in Haiti???

Lautaro
"They" will never leave us alone, is like "they" are trying to jump in by force and by being bullies in our life boat so they can mooch, pillage, steal, pollute and finally ruin and sink us all.
We have to always be alert and fight for our country like our forefathers before us, and never lower our guard, these invaders have nothing to lose and nowhere else to go were they are still welcome. They are international pariahs, they have overstayed their welcome and ruined everyplace that they have landed. They carry the hateful HateIam banner and curse wherever they go.

Pedro Santana wanted to annex the Dominican Republic to Spain...He even arrested the "Founding Fathers..."
Buenaventura Baez wanted to annex the Dominican Republic to the United States...
Yeah, Real patriots. Now, Heureaux? Here is someone I can support!!!

Jacirez, the battle that was celebrated yesterday, el 30 de Marzo, was fought by the people of my region, my ancestors. They didn't really have a concept of what being Dominican was (even Haitian officials of the time referred to the eastern inhabitants of the island as "Spanish") but what they did know is that they no longer wanted to cast their lots with the Haitian people and their nation, that they no longer wanted any part of the enterprise we call Haiti. Their desire for seperation from our neighbors to the west was made manifest by their courage and by the blades of their machetes. They were among those that took the first steps along the path that lead us to what and who we are today and for that I commend them as should all Dominicans who love their national patrimony. Que viva los Andulleros y que viva el general Nando Valerio! Tus hijos aun recuerdan.

Juan F. German Valerio

Amen to that, ciby.

I like to know why DT allow comments in this article and then in other dominican/haitian related articles restrict comments.

A continuación una lista de las personas que, por así decirlo patrocinaron en gran parte la Batalla de Santiago el 30 de marzo de 1844

ROMAN FRANCO BIDO $800 JOSE DEVANDELIER 200

CIPRIAN MALLOL 200 JUAN LUIS FRANCO BIDO 200

FRANCISCO VINAS 200 MANUEL CURIEL 100

J. E. VILLANUEVA 100 FERNANDO APONTE 100

Ciby, did Soto Jimenez told you about the fact that your celebrated ancestor had to ask the dominican congress for another machete, as his own personal one broke after killing so many of the enemy troops in hand to hand fighting?

Well said Cib.

As to jaci's comment Hereaux < Luperon, another hero of the North.

cibaeño75,

I am a pragmatist, with a firm grasp for reality. I do not let romanticism get in the way of facts. There is ample evidence that the series of "events" that led to the "guerra de independencia" are, as with most things, not black and white; but gray all the way...
As with most things 27 de Febrero, 1844 had more to do with petty politics than a real and true desire for freedom.
That is not to say, however, that the end result (The establishment of the Dominican Republic as an independent entity) is not worth celebrating

"Ciby, did Soto Jimenez told you about the fact that your celebrated ancestor had to ask for another machete, as his own personal one broke after killing so many of the enemy troops in hand to hand fighting?"

I've heard that anecdote before but if there's one person with impressive knowledge about the era we're referring to it's Soto Jimenez.

I saw all the procession yesterday on the television and when all the different militia were marching or parading past , I thought of two things ..What a total waste of money keeping so many different armed forces here and considering the last wars were in the 19th century how much longer do people want to celebrate these events in such a way. Most countries have a day to give thanks to those who died in wars or to celebrate the the renewal of peace as in rememberance day but not to celebrate specific victories over neighbours..i can imagine the outcry if england celebrated battle victories against the french , or the french against the spanish or thailand against laos. it is really rather juvenile. Maybe one day the celebration will be for honest democracy.

Ricardolito,

SARCASM ALERT!!!!

You have committed the cardinal sin! This is heresy! To criticize anything Dominican in this forum in tantamount to treason. Oh, dear...

P.S: How are things in Villa Verde...?

"am a pragmatist, with a firm grasp for reality. I do not let romanticism get in the way of facts. There is ample evidence that the series of "events" that led to the "guerra de independencia" are, as with most things, not black and white; but gray all the way...
As with most things 27 de Febrero, 1844 had more to do with petty politics than a real and true desire for freedom.
That is not to say, however, that the end result (The establishment of the Dominican Republic as an independent entity) is not worth celebrating "

You speak without knowing. The fact is that the events of 1844 enjoyed the support of practically the entire Dominican population, otherwse it would've failed when one takes into consideration the military superiority of our foe. The elites alone wouldn't have been able to fight off the haitians by themselves.

"Dominicans mark another victory against the Haitians."

Beautiful show of patriotism by our people. However, I hope President Leonel Fernandez who headed the parade is not just simply giving us a display of political rhetoric. It is very easy to brag off national pride during a holiday, but let us see his true colors when confronted by the human rights court. Will he stand firm ground in defense of our national rights or will he wimp away as he tends to do when faced with intense conflict?

cibaeño75,
All I have to say is: "...EVERY elevation of the type ‘man,’ has hitherto been the work of an aristocratic society and so it will always be—a society believing in a long scale of gradations of rank and differences of worth among human beings, and requiring slavery in some form or other..."
True in 1844; true in 2009...Then again, you're an idealist. You see the world (or at least your tiny, isolated corner of it) as it ought to be; not how it is...

hey lautaro can you dig deep inside your extesive knoledge of Dominican history and tell me if it were any maeño with any relevant roll in la batalla del 30th the marzo?

Jacires, all I have to say to the likes of you is that the Dominican people want nothing to do with union with Haiti and wish to remain as seperate as possible from said entity.
True in 1844; true in 2009...

Ricardolito, throughout Latin America nations celebrate specific battles (cinco de mayo being the most famous one outside of the region). Welcome to latin America.

cibaeño75,
"...all I have to say to the likes of you is that the Dominican people want nothing to do with union with Haiti and wish to remain as [separate] as possible from said entity.
True in 1844; true in 2009..."

However, you forget that "EVERY elevation of the type ‘man,’ has hitherto been the work of an aristocratic society and so it will always be..."

In the final analysis; it is not up to the "Dominican People" as you put it; but up to the ruling class (and they owe allegiance to no country)...The final determinant on the issue of "unification" as some call it will not be public will; but economic interest and economic realities. It's the way of the world, my dear friend...

You don't have to ask twice, fellow trinitario. Among the maeños in our independence battles we can count the likes of José Desiderio Valverde, from which the province takes its name and Francisco Antonio (Tito) Salcedo, both of which commanded on the "Entre Rios" batallion, which would go and defeat Jean Louis Pierrot at the battle of march 30.

http://www.redpodercomunitario.org/Provincias/Mao/Mao.htm

"In the final analysis; it is not up to the "Dominican People" as you put it; but up to the ruling class (and they owe allegiance to no country)...The final determinant on the issue of "unification" as some call it will not be public will; but economic interest. It's the way of the world, my dear friend..."

The Spanish Annexation was entirely an elitist project (what you refer to as the "ruling class") and we all know how that ended. In that instance it was not the elites but the Dominican people who were the "final determinent" and as such your final analysis is squat. And we are by no means freinds so save the pleasentries.

cibaeño75,
Are you serious???
La Guerra de la Restauracion is a clear example of an instance of two competing agendas among the ruling class...
From Wikipedia: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guer....stauracion_(Republica_Dominicana)
La Anexión a España, llevada a cabo por el general Pedro Santana, provocó el derrumbe total de los ideales patriotas por los que habían luchado los independentistas dominicanos en la gesta del 27 de febrero de 1844. Ahora el país pasaba a ser una colonia española. En vez de adelantos económicos, el país sufrió una degradación progresiva, lo que llevó a la emisión desmesurada de papel moneda, y por haber una producción sostenida, se agravó la crisis económica y todo el comercio se vio afectado. Se incrementó la deuda pública y los gastos gubernamentales fueron excesivos. Los productores nacionales de tabaco, café, cacao, entre otros, fueron los primeros en verse afectados por la crisis monetaria, aunque luego la crisis pasó al pueblo en general.

"La Guerra de la Restauracion is a clear example of an instance of two competing agendas among the ruling class..."

We all know that there were different groups vying for power back then. Your point is...?

cibaeño75,

My point is, had the economic realities benefited the ruling class, today we may be celebrating El Pilar, rather than El 16 de Agosto. Cibaeño, you are a patriot and I respect that; but do not let your patriotism cloud your objectivity. Seeing our country for what is is; rather than what you want it to be is an imperative if we are to make a positive contribution to the "Bienestar Nacional"

"My point is, had the economic realities benefited the ruling class, today we may be celebrating El Pilar, rather than El 16 de Agosto. Cibaeño, you are a patriot and I respect that; but do not let your patriotism cloud your objectivity. Seeing our country for what is is; rather than what you want it to be is an imperative if we are to make a positive contribution to the "Bienestar Nacional""

You can make that argument but ONLY if you remove the cultural and ethnic component from the happenings in 1844, which cannot honestly be done. There was more to the seperation of our countries of origin then just just economic reasons though I would agree that they were also a factor in what transpired.

cibaeño75,
"...ONLY if you remove the cultural and ethnic component from the happenings in 1844, which cannot honestly be done..."
You know, you remove 1844 and replace it with 2009 and that statement will still be valid (although irrelevant) today.
That is the real problem in DR today. We seem to be STRUCK in 1844 and look at Haiti as a separate entity when in truth that is not the case. The expression "if a butterfly flaps its wing in Port-au-Prince, it rains in Santo Domingo" is one that we seem to be unable to accept. The problems in Haiti are OUR problems too.
Imagine, if there is some cataclysmic event in Haiti, where do you think its populace will flee? The Dominican Republic! Like it or not, we are Haiti pressure release valve. Closing the border does not work. The best we can hope for is some semblance of control over the events in that side of the island and the only way to do this is to get involved. Saying "We don't want anything to do with them" is not realistic.

cibao some people don't understand that we Dominican patriots don't let objectivity cloud our love for our country and compromised the sacrifice our founding fathers made for the betterment of future generations of Dominicans. It's hard to understand for an outsider whos own historical background doesn't bear the fruits of past triumphs, it's easier to claim my legacy and bienestar social as his than to accept the fact that there is no hope of ever seen his republic resembles past glories.

nevertheless what we have become as a society have nothing in common with the society of independence times, it is a sad truth, the military and the ruling elite has run this country to the deepest end of decay, both socially, economically and politically.

jacirez the restoration was more popular than it was based on leaning of aristocrats, and the wiki doesn't mntion role of racism in causing Dominicans to rise up then. Also BTW you seem to be misreading your N. quote as he is speaking there of a society in aristocratic shape, not of the decisions or interests of the elite class. Per N. society in this shape produces material and cultural background that generates stunning individuals who shape the mob in their image (men like Santana, Duarte, Hereaux, Trujillo) by force or seduction.

All in all '44 is good stuff, even if Santana & Baez's personalities were not ambitious enough to break with their class interest completely.

Manhattanite,

I disagree. N. Refers to the physical accumulation and use of power in its truest and barest form. Furthermore, he said that the preservation of power in the hands of those who have it is a sacred duty to be honored at all costs...

"...Without the PATHOS OF DISTANCE, such as grows out of the incarnated difference of classes, out of the constant outlooking and down-looking of the ruling caste on subordinates and instruments, and out of their equally constant practice of obeying and commanding, of keeping down and keeping at a distance—that other more mysterious pathos could never have arisen, the longing for
an ever new widening of distance within the soul itself, the formation of ever higher, rarer, further, more extended, more comprehensive states, in short, just the elevation of the type ‘man,’ the continued ‘selfsurmounting of man,’ to use a moral formula in a supermoral sense..."

"...Men with a still natural nature, barbarians in every terrible sense of the word, men of prey, still in possession of unbroken strength of will and desire for power, threw themselves upon weaker, more moral, more peaceful races (perhaps trading or cattle-rearing communities), or upon old mellow civilizations in which the final vital force was flickering out in brilliant fireworks of wit and depravity..."

"Saying "We don't want anything to do with them" is not realistic."

No one is saying that, at least not me but that doesn't mean that we should tolerate DR being indeed Haiti's "pressure release valve". Besides, I think that if the Dominico-Haitian border were completely sealed today it would accelerate political change for the better in Haiti (the same thing would happen in Mexico if that border were to be sealed). Do you not agree Jacirez?

cibaeño75,

That the point we seem to be missing: Sealing a physical border is impossible. The best solution is to "encourage" the kinds of changes that would make crossing the border into the DR a losing proposition (by creating positive economic conditions in Haiti). That is the point I have been trying to make. I abrogate this view, not because I am an "Haitian Agent Provocateur" as some have called me; but because I am a pragmatist. I look for solutions that work while keeping my nationalist fervor to a minimum...

Well for the second or third time in this thread that's another of your trademark dissimulations jacirez, it has nothing to do with the correction I offered. You post the quote as if N. were a nationalist who cares much (at all) for the fate of the elites, when what he cares about is the superlative individual who can arise in a society built on gradation, discrimination and distinction. If the superlative individual is the ruin of that elite class he wouldn't much care. You brandish that quote in a strange way is all I'm saying....also why should anyone here care about the rantings of a syphillitic, lonely German philologist, this is a funny way to use N as though he is an authority to them.

Manhattanite,

You know, I like to describe N's theories as the coherent superposition of all states allowed by objective observation (not unlike the quantum state of matter); such that prior to a particular observation, all interpretation of its meaning are equally valid--only after a particular observation and supplementary set of circumstances can one ascribe a final meaning to his views...

"That the point we seem to be missing: Sealing a physical border is impossible."

That is simply not true. The Dominico-Haitiam border was completely secured in the early 90s under balaguer during a time of turmoil in the neighboring nation (look it up) so obviously it can indeed be done.

quantum blh vlah... Oh shut up my dear payaso :) N would slap you to hear that all interpretation is equally valid, that's about the most un-aristocratic thing you could say. We'll leave it there as far as N but I'll ask you to cut the theatrics with me. I'm willing to play games but not if you're going to indiscriminately try the same low level tactics on me as with the rest of the rogue's gallery here. Pz!

cibaeño75,
"...The Dominico-Haitiam border was completely secured in the early 90s under balaguer during a time of turmoil in the neighboring nation..."
Complete means absolute. It is highly questionable (well, rather impossible) to assert there was zero illegal immigration from Haiti during the 1986 - 1996...
You may reduce it, or under-report it; but seal it completely, highly unlikely. And even if you did, that would work for a time. Given enough economic (or otherwise) pressure, the Haitian populace will cross the border and overwhelm any measure the Dominican authority put in place...

Manhattanite,

Prior to actual observation, all possibilities are equally valid...That is a basic tenet of objective reality. You should know that...

All war is demographic war, we need to crank out as many Dominicans as possible, especially males. If you are over 30 with no kid you are behind the quota and slacking so get to work!

Manhattanite,

WOW!!!
Talk about a Dissociative identity disorder!

ciby
You are wasting your time with the Haitian agent provacateur who only cuts and pastes from wiki.
He is a troll paid by Aristide of all people to stir up trouble in DT.
Do not feed the trolls!

"Given enough economic (or otherwise) pressure, the Haitian populace will cross the border and overwhelm any measure the Dominican authority put in place..."

If there was indeed a real resolve among Dominican authorities to seal the border I seriously doubt that they would indeed be overwhelmed. And I didn't say that the Dominico-haitian border was sealed throughout the murderer Balaguer's tenure.That occured a little before the Americans invaded Haiti and it did indeed prevent an influx of haitians who might've tried to flee the violence at home by going east.

cibaeño75,

Wouldn't creating the economic condition that would make crossing the border into DR unnecessary be more of a permanent solution to the problem...?

Prior to observation you are just playing metaphysics with Socrates and other ugly life-denying philosophers.

generoso you have already fed the trolls entire banquets, so why ask us now to stop? It's too late the damage is done, the tone of the forum has been set.

And what's sweeter is that we have two other victories to celebrate in APRIL... El MEMISO Y PUERTO TORTUGUERO

"Wouldn't creating the economic condition that would make crossing the border into DR unnecessary be more of a permanent solution to the problem...?"

Jacirez, do you think I'm not bothered by my neighbor's plight? I feel for Haiti, I really do. I've often said that I await the day that I can take a day trip via smooth roads from Santiago to Jacmel so that I can enjoy a beer while I enjoy the beautiful bay in the last mentioned town. With that said the onus of creating the economic conditions that would make border crossings unnecessary lies ultimately with Haitian people. The DR is a poor nation and as such any help that can be forthcoming from it is going to be trivial at best.

cibaeño75,

The problem is: Haiti is not going to create those conditions on its own and the international community couldn't care less. They do not see a two-nation island, they only see a single land mass. Given that, we have no choice but to intervene.

My view is that if we have to intervene, then we should do it in such a way that we(Dominicans) can reap the bulk of the benefits...

"The problem is: Haiti is not going to create those conditions on its own and the international community couldn't care less. They do not see a two-nation island, they only see a single land mass. Given that, we have no choice but to intervene."

Why should the Dominican people , or the Haitian people for that matter, let outsiders define them?

You strike me as an intelligent fellow, jacirez. If their's anything that you should've picked up on these threads it should've been this: Dominicans, regardless of their political sympathies or where in the world they were reared in, want to hear nothing about the unification of the island. If you fail to see that then you are failing to see reality.

cibaeño75,

Again, I am a pragmatist. I see the world for what it is...not what it ought to be...
We already are One entity in all but name. We may not like it; we may not "want to hear it"; but that does not make it any less true. The world is what it is; not what we want it to be...

"Again, I am a pragmatist. I see the world for what it is...not what it ought to be...
We already are One entity in all but name. We may not like it; we may not "want to hear it"; but that does not make it any less true. The world is what it is; not what we want it to be..."

No, you see the world the way YOU want to see it. There's an old Dominican saying: sigue comiendo fiao....that is all.

Cibaeño, you are a patriot and I respect that; but do not let your patriotism cloud your objectivity. Seeing our country for what is is; rather than what you want it to be is an imperative if we are to make a positive contribution to the "Bienestar Nacional"

for those of you who dont know yet jacirez is our DT pet. nuestra mascota. come get your bone bobby.

cibao some people don't understand that a good dominican patriot does not let objectivity cloud the love of your country.

When the triumphs of your past generation build your nation path to independance and prosperity you as citizen will not compromise the sacrifice of your founding fathers, never compromise.


On the other hand when your nation historic triumphs bare no fruits and generation upon generation of one people suffer extreme poverty and exploitation at the hands of their own leaders then it is easier to climb someone else glory.

por eso cibaeño tiene su letrero que dice:

Hoy No Fio, Mañana Si

vacanos,

At some point everybody, including me, grows up....
When will you, buddy...

jacirez tu coje mas cuerda que un reloj de a peso mi fiel mascota.

trivia question does anybody know who said this?

O NOS SEPARAMOS O SE HUNDE LA TIERRA

vacanos,

I'm all for good humor; but you're like a one-track pony. Dreadlocks, cibaeño75, Generoso. Hell, even Manhattanite will every once in a while surprise you with their insight. You just ramble on like a child starved for affection. It gets tiresome...
Say something intelligent, I dare you…

vacanos
If we must have jacirez the troll as a pet, could you please have him fumigated first, he stinks and is full of fleas. Also make sure that is has his rabies vaccination.
He needs to wear his butt plug all the time to contain fetid matter that comes out often on both sides.

159 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK



Do you know what happened this week back in 1850, 159 years ago?

*

California became a state!

California had no electricity.

California had no money.

Almost everyone spoke Spanish.

There were gunfights in the streets.

*
*
So basically, it was just like it is today, except the women had real breasts and the men didn't hold hands.

generoso,
Touché!
I guess I spoke too soon...

and for the Obama freaks....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1JmUEMQ6zY&NR=1

Jacirez Do you live in an illusion or are you just here to prove something for yourself, it's funny how desperately you want to impose you're views upon people. The posters are countering constantly you're self titled 'pragmatist' views and you continue with you're empty charade, shame on you. You should concentrate in helping you're Haitian people to get out of the self made gutter they have created by themselves.

Gizmo,

Ah, another pupil from the Vacanos school of thought...
Ignorant Peasant!!!!

Has anybody read this and if so willing to part with their copy:

http://www.amazon.com/Militarizat....UYW5EVRDM&colid=19XVVDW0CTIO2

Jacirez your words don't mean nothing, you are not wise enough to understand national pride, and self preservation. Haiti was established under a black supremacist construct and failed at every attempts of imposing itself over the Dominican populace. Stop posting quotations or links from Wikipedia, for everybody knows it's not a true source for facts, but half facts and all out lies and hidden agendas. Read Haitian in denial read http://www.binghamton.edu/fbc/dupuy.pdf

Read Haitian read http://www.binghamton.edu/fbc/dupuy.pdf

Todos esos comentarios mas arriba es precisamente lo que Leonel tiene en mente.: Hacerlo perder el tiempo a todos ustedes en disparate disfrazados de "hechos historico" ya que todos sabemos como se ha escrito nuestra historia. Asi se entretienen y no piensan mas en lo que ese bandido de Presidente le esta haciendo a nestro pais con su forma autorcratica de gobernar, apoyado por los borregos y "si senor" del PLD. Porque tanto enfasis en celebraciones historicas en nuestro pais?

willmo,

The audacity!
How dare besmirch the name of our Beloved Presidente. He is a god and should be worshiped. You are a traitor to the patria and will be dealt with like the vermin you are. Long Live Presidente Fernandez!!!
Cuatro años Màs!
Cuatro años Màs!
Cuatro años Màs!
Cuatro años Màs!
Cuatro años Màs!

Wilmo esto no tiene que ver con politica, esto tiene que ver con una celebracion historica encontra de la ocupacion haitiana y el yugo que nos atropello por 22 miserables años. Sigue pensando que todo es politica y intereses ajeno, no seas ignorante y piensa que seria si la Republica Dominicana no habia confrontado ese cancer que es Haiti. Seriamos un pais miserable como ellos son hoy.

Why is the concentration on Haiti and not on Spain if we are talking about the 1800's? Why is it that the so-called patriots never mentioned the U.S. imperialist occupation of the DR in 1916 and 1965 and its continued domination of the country to date? Everyone knows imperialist domination has a class base and that is the ruling class , the reactionaries and the corrupt opportunist politicians in the DR. How come the patriots are not criticizing and fighting those pro-imperialists? Why is it that all the rage on this forum is directed toward Haiti?
Could it be that part of the answer lies in pseudo-patriotism and racism toward Haiti because Haiti is predominantly Black?

Caonabohayti
Yes it is because you are black!
Are you happy now? Is that what you wanted to hear?
You fool and what are we in DR white? You have to be kidding!

Based on Caonabohayti, latroudeballe, dreadlocks and other trolls I would say that Haitians really try hard to make people believe that unifying the island is a good idea. Haiti was established as a black supremacist state, and during their occupation in DR it is documented that they looted a lot until Domis finally snapped. unifying the island is NOT A GOOD IDEA, when two different people are together tension arises. the crusades and the 3rd reich are a good example, on top of that, don't you feel a little awkward when you are surrounded by people not like you, in say restaurants or classrooms? I will ask to any haitian that's reading this: do you think it is fair that Haitians are immigrating to DR illegaly or in other words, do you support those who immigrate illegaly and sneak pregnant women?

generoso,
When you are addressing a public forum, you have to apply rules of etiquette such as respect. You may disagree with someone and offer an alternative opinion. You don't know me in any way shape or form. If you are unable to answer the questions posed, you are under no obligation to say anything. You do not have to debase yourself by disrespecting others. You don't have that right.

To: ******* Hayti Simple we became independent from Spain in 1821 without any violent means, it was a period of time when Spain was going through political changes and civil wars. Many Spanish colonies started becoming independent from Spain, it was the end of the Spanish Empire. Haiti became independent in 1804 from the French, and had ambition for Empire within the island, and from then on Haitians were constantly trying to take over the island through violent methods and invasions. "THAT'S WHY!"

cyberdragon
It is not that simple, Haitians bring nothing to the table. They are a burden to us. They have to be fed, educated, provided health, housing, security, and what DO THEY or CAN THEY bring to the table? Zero, 0, nada.
And that is provided they could read and speak Spanish which they don't.
And one more thing, they love their voo doo rites and superstitions as well, diametrically opposed to our Catholic beliefs.

Caonabohayti
Don't give me a discourse on table manners, please. State your point and don't lecture us.
Your discourse comes as civilized so I will respond any way I please, wether it is your liking or not.
My reply was not offensive, if it was to you, then I didn't mean it to be. You are not the moderator in this forum. You should also show some manners to the other Haitian trolls as well in your "combit".

cyberdragon,
Please do not misrepresent my views! Stop the run-around my questions! I said nothing about unification of the Island. It is not for me or you to think or decide. Plese unless someone address my questions concretely, you are under no obligation to say anything. There is a tendency that is emerging here to try to go around the subject. This is not going to happen here. NO DISTRACTIONS PLEASE! AND CURSING IS NOT GOING TO INTIMIDATE US! ANSWER THE QUESTIONS! THANKS!

It seems to me you do need some table manners...and some spanking at that. On this forum, we demand respect. If you do not respect yourself, that's your business. Unless you show respect to others, what you will say here has absolutely no value to us, respectable readers and participants, on this forum.

Caonabohayti
"I feel your pain" as President Clinton once said.
I would be mad as hell if Haiti was my country and it was the mess it is now with no light at the end of the tunnel.
But Haitians, please get this, I am getting tired from repeating it every day:
The solution for Haiti's problem can not come from the DR, repeat it!
Unification is nothing but a wet dream. Stop searching for quick magic solutions to your problems.
In DR we are better than you are now but it took us many years of struggles, revolutions, dictatorial governments, neo-dictatorial governments, quasi-dictatorial governments, imperfect democracy to finally get us where we are now. A true democracy still with intolerable levels of corruption, but you know what, it is hard work, and we are going forward not backwards like you Haitians have been going for the last 30 years.

Con't
And if you want to debate me that is fine.
If you are another one that wants to confront me, forget it. I am done with this exchange unless
you respond a response not more BS.
And don't say us unless you define who is the "us" that you think you represent. I didn't see any elections that YOU were chosen to lead this forum.
Respectable readers and participants like you that just blab away and say nothing are worthless.

Caonabohayti, Willmo,

Please forgive my compatriots here in this forum. They are Peasants; and as such live in an alternate reality where the cultural makeup of the current inhabitants of the Dominican Republic is a result of a blessed union between the "noble" Spanish and the "warrior" Tainos...They are so ignorant they don't even acknowledge the African influence in our culture (in the form of language, music, physical characteristics, etc.).

Concepts such as realpolitiks and geo-economics are foreign to them; the complexities of the modern world escape them. They are unable to grasp the fact that the concept of race (as applied to human being) has no basis in science and is only a recent pseudo-philosophical contruct.

Any attempt to show them reason is doomed to failure. The best thing to do is leave them to their own devices and marvel at the depth of their ignorance...

Thank you, just leave us ignorant peasants alone, please go now, that includes you troll. Door is open.

generoso,

Are you kidding me? Your ignorance amuses me. I can always point at you and laugh....

Excuse the Haitian above alias Jacirez, that thinks that his charcoal skin is typical in Dominican Republic LOL. And thinks that the toilet called Haiti, should somehow dump all their crap on us, no thanks.

Toilet please, don't be so nice, latrine is more like it.
A wise man like they pretend to be amused by an ignorant peasant, that is a new one.
If they are so smart how come they and all the other Haitian geniuses are not back in Haiti, working hard to get their country back on its feet, instead of always begging and being rejected by everyone and being a burden more feared than the bubonic plague?
Haitiens, take your beggars cup and pray to your voo doo Gods for the manah to come and magically build Alice in Wonderland in your barren and cursed land.
But just leave us. We don't want you in DR, you have overstayed your welcome. Scram, alé.

Gizmo, Generoso,

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaja!!!

Salten, Payasitos, Salten!!!
Salten, Payasitos, Salten!!!
Salten, Payasitos, Salten!!!
Salten, Payasitos, Salten!!!
Ustedes son un par de campesinos babosos...
You don't realize that in front of anyone with a semblance of an education, let alone common sense, you two are nothing but ignorant peasants worthy of pity...You're blind to the fact you're blind...You don't even realize how backwards and "campesinos" you come across. You two are a joke. Less than a joke you are just IGNORANT PEASANTS. You will always be IGNORANT PEASANTS. Will never be taken seriously by anyone with an iota of brain and common sense. Me dan Verguenza...

I will always think of you two and laugh....You make the herdsmen from south Yemen look like intellectuals...The Taliban look like priests. You are the refuse, the garbage; the putrid scum at the fondo del bazurero...

Hi !
I say Hi !

etiennc01,

Wat' up E? What's crack-a-lacking..?

On august 16, 1863 a national war of restoration began in Santiago, where dominican rebels established a provisional government.
Spanish troops reoccupied the town,but the Dominican rebels fled to to the mountains along the ill-defined Haitian border.
HAITIAN PRESIDENT FABRE GEFFRARD provided the Dominican rebels with" sanctuary "and "ARMS" sending a detachment of his presidential guards ( The tirailleurs) to fight alongside the Dominicans rebels.


Has this chapter been removed from the Dominican History books ?????

Well . we will have a parade for this occasion on August 16, 2009

Memory versus History

etiennc01,

You're wasting your time. These people are PEASANTS (Campesinos) they will no listen to reason or facts that do not conform to their warped sense of reality (or history). You are better of pointing at them and laughing at their ignorance...

Hey jacirez I am glad you remenber your old friends
I was in the Dominican Republic studying the the Dominican History and checking facts that have been left out or neglected by Roso, Gizmo,Le troudeballe and Vacanos.
I know that Roso will be very upset and this may destroyed our shaky friendhip.
i am keeping my findgers crossed

El buen perro a su casa vuelve.

Generoso good message! I enjoyed it!

With regards to Santana, IT WAS HAITI WHO PUSHED DR TO ASK SPAIN FOR ADMINISTRATION! Herard invaded DR in 1845. Soulouque invaded DR in 1849 and 1855. Soulouque threatened to re-invade DR in 1859 before he was toppled by his own military tired of invading DR! All of these actions pushed Santana, Baez and others to put DR under a bigger military power for protection!

And yes Santana and Duverge' are the true liberators of DR! I am proud to have learned of Santana bravery against a superior and well armed army. And Santana's brilliant tactic in Azua prevented Herard from marching to STO DGO! VIVA SANTANA!

Etiennc1 learn this and learn this well! The reason Haiti aided the prohaitians in DR in 1863 is BECAUSE SPAIN WAS RETURNING DOMINICAN LAND BACK TO DR FROM HAITI!

In 1862, under Royal Order # 14, Spanish forces recouped Dajabon and Capotillo from Haitian hands! The Spanish forces were poised to recover the towns of San Rafael, San Miguel de la Atalaya, Hincha, and Las Caobas from Haiti (as agreed in the Treatry of Aranjuez 1777) when the Haitian fed internal revolt in DR stopped and distracted the Spanish forces from carrying out the Treaty of Aranjuez!

And that is the story piece of latrine!

The opening article said: "Dominicans mark another victory against the Haitians", March 30th:

Why is the concentration on Haiti and not on Spain if we are talking about the 1800's? Why is it that the so-called patriots never mentioned the U.S. imperialist occupation of the DR in 1916 and 1965 and its continued domination of the country to date? Everyone knows imperialist domination has a class base and that is the ruling class , the reactionaries and the corrupt opportunist politicians in the DR. How come the patriots are not criticizing and fighting those pro-imperialists? Why is it that all the rage on this forum is directed toward Haiti?
Could it be that part of the answer lies in pseudo-patriotism and racism toward Haiti because Haiti is predominantly Black?
Just answer the above questions posted earlier and stop beating around the bush!

Caonabohayti, Willmo,

Please forgive my compatriots here in this forum. They are Peasants; and as such live in an alternate reality where the cultural makeup of the current inhabitants of the Dominican Republic is a result of a blessed union between the "noble" Spanish and the "warrior" Tainos...They are so ignorant they don't even acknowledge the African influence in our culture (in the form of language, music, physical characteristics, etc.).

Concepts such as realpolitiks and geo-economics are foreign to them; the complexities of the modern world escape them. They are unable to grasp the fact that the concept of race (as applied to human being) has no basis in science and is only a recent pseudo-philosophical contruct.

Any attempt to show them reason is doomed to failure. The best thing to do is leave them to their own devices and marvel at the depth of their ignorance...

"The opening article said: "Dominicans mark another victory against the Haitians", March 30th:

Why is the concentration on Haiti and not on Spain if we are talking about the 1800's?"

Um, did you not look at the date of the victory that is being celebrated? Yea. I think that anwers your question. Get a grip, please. The Dominican people are not involved in a constant orgy of haitian bashing contrary to the illusion that you seem to be laboring under. We're celebrating a victory on the ANNIVERSARY of that victory. When the date comes we will also celebrate our victory over the defeated Spanish troops of the 1860s.

"Concepts such as realpolitiks and geo-economics are foreign to them; the complexities of the modern world escape them. They are unable to grasp the fact that the concept of race (as applied to human being) has no basis in science and is only a recent pseudo-philosophical contruct."

Indeed, your intellectual acumen is way beyond anything or anyone on this cite. You're wasting your time corresponding with us simpletons.

You're wasting your time trying to get us to feel "guilty" about celebrating our accomplishments, Caonabohayti, cuz' if you haven't been paying attention, we celebrate with equal joy ALL our patriotic festivities, including the ones against Spain. If it were not so, how would you explain our celebrating August 16th every year? and that with military parades, carnival shows, and, to put the cream to the top, with the inauguration of the presidencies with the president elect taking the oath on every election year (the same going to the congressmen and municipal authorities). How would you explain that, genius? And to make it even more ironic, it would be the extremely antihaitian and prospaniard president Joaquin Balaguer which would institute that date as one of national celebration. How'd you explain that incongruence in a people suposed to love everything "white"? sorry, but you will have to try better things to make us feel "guilty" of having made the right decision, if ever.

cibaeño75,
"...Indeed, your intellectual acumen is way beyond anything or anyone on this cite. You're wasting your time corresponding with us simpletons..."

Indeed, my friend. But as an enlightened Dominican it is my job to set the record straight. Otherwise you fools would give Quisqueya a bad name...

In order to be a Dominican you can not just self appoint yourself as one. You also have to swear by our flag to defend our country and institutions. Not berate the DR or it's government and always be an example of civic pride and nationalism for the Dominican Republic.
You despicable and intruding Haitian troll are none of the above, so if you are really a Dominican then you are a traitor to your country, and should be condemned to the most stringent punishment.

Caonabohayti asked: Why is the concentration on Haiti and not on Spain if we are talking about the 1800's?

Because the process of independence against the haitians was more hotly contested than the one against the spaniards, the haitian process taking 13 years of hard, grueling and bitter war, while the war against the spaniards would take only 2 years, with the spaniards losing a lot of troops due to the guerrilla tactics of the dominican rebels and to the effects of tropical diseases (yellow fever most of all). So, in other words, no es lo mismo ni es igual.

generoso,

Be silent, Peasant!!!

Lautaro,

In your "expert" opinion: Which colonial power was more detrimental to the development of an indigenous culture and general development in the Dominican Republic? Haiti? Spain? Why?

PS: The term indigenous in this context means "local", "unique" and not a reference to the Arawakan/Maipurean family of tribes...

My answer would be both of them, cuz' both of them (with differing degrees) tried to impose their views upon the native dominican population. Or are you forgetting that Boyer tried to impose the use of kreyol to the dominican population, ignoring Toussaint's wise policy of letting us keep our usages and customs? Boyer's stupid mistake would cost the haitian nation the dominance over the island. I'm not saying that one dominator was better than the other, the only thing that I'm trying to do here is to reassert our legitimate right to be free, and no intellectual gymnastic of yours will make me change one iota of it.

Lautaro,
"...My answer would both of them, cuz' both of them (with differing degrees) tried to impose their views upon the native dominican population..."
If this is so, then why such vitriol when talking about the Haitian ocupation (22years) and nothing of the virtual enslavement and extermination of the native population by the Spaniards(1492 - 1795, or 303 years!!!)...?

jacirez asked: "If this is so, then why such vitriol when talking about the Haitian ocupation (22years) and nothing of the virtual enslavement and extermination of the native population by the Spaniards(1492 - 1795, or 303 years!!!)...?"

Because spanish dominion over Hispaniola was not really that tight, specially after they discovered the gold mines in Mexico and Peru. Or are you forgetting the fact that spanish laws and racist usages would not be that heavily enforced over here as they were on those two places and in Cuba and PR? If they would have been earnest on their intent on domination of this island, they wouldn't have let the population to mix as freely as it did, nor let the french get a foothold in the western part of the island in the first place.

...What? No takers...?

Read the answer above.

Lautaro,

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? They raped, murdered and otherwise exterminated an entire civilization!!!

The Spaniards come; then proceed to rape and murder the entire indigenous population...
The Haitians come and the first thing they do is abolish slavery...

The following does indeed holds true:
"...Any attempt to show them reason is doomed to failure. The best thing to do is leave them to their own devices and marvel at the depth of their ignorance..."

"If this is so, then why such vitriol when talking about the Haitian ocupation (22years) and nothing of the virtual enslavement and extermination of the native population by the Spaniards(1492 - 1795, or 303 years!!!)...?"

You choose to read only certain poster's posts, obviously. I'm constantly bashing Spain on these threads. I guess you only look out for the posts that support your myopic view of the Dominican people.

cibaeño75,
If you are fair and balanced, then you have my respect...

jacirez said: "Lautaro,

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? They raped, murdered and otherwise exterminated an entire civilization!!!"

And what do you think that the haitians tried to do with different degrees, smartypants? Do you think that Dessalines or Soulouque's invasions were just strolls in the park? On Dessalines ones', had it not being by the timely intervention of the french fleet, he would have done with us just like the spaniards did with the indians, and in a more hands on approach, I might say (just like he did with the remnants of Haiti's white population after the independence). In Soulouque's attempts, the thing that saved us would be the coup d'etat that Geffrard and the other mulatto generals did against him. Again, your intellectual gymnastics don't amuse me, both dominators were bad for the country, and that's a fact.

Lautaro,

I will stick with my original thought:
"...Any attempt to show them reason is doomed to failure. The best thing to do is leave them to their own devices and marvel at the depth of their ignorance..."
They raped, murdered and pillaged on an industrial scale...and we build then a "Faro a Colón..."
What kind of ignorant "lambones" are we?!!!

Lautaro gymnastics is a sport, meaning there are rules on how you make a point. Jacirez' maneuvers are more like acrobatics, or perhaps clownery ... the only rule is to get a laugh.

As always, you're right on point, Mannie. Forgive my semantic transgression.

Manhattanite, Lautaro,
"...In 1861, after imprisoning, silencing, exiling, and executing many of his opponents and due to political and economic reasons, Santana signed a pact with the Spanish Crown and reverted the Dominican nation to colonial status, the only Latin American country to do so..."

Peasants! You guys are beyond redemption...
"...Any attempt to show you reason is doomed to failure. The best thing to do is leave you to your own devices and marvel at the depth of your ignorance..."

Maybe we should ask José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero to take us back...LOL!

Likewise, jaci, likewise. Would it be too much to ask of you to simply let us be?

Lautaro,

Indeed, my friend. But as an enlightened Dominican it is my job to set the record straight. Otherwise you fools would give Quisqueya a bad name...

I don't see any enlightment in your trying to impose your views upon us dictatorially (very much like your haitian idols, with fire and sword, I might say). So you'll excuse me if I take anything that you say as I would a grain of salt from now on. What's next? to extol the virtues of the presidency for life?

"...In 1861, after imprisoning, silencing, exiling, and executing many of his opponents and due to political and economic reasons, [President] Santana signed a pact with the Spanish Crown and reverted the Dominican nation to colonial status, the only Latin American country to do so..."

"...The inhabitants of Hispaniola were displaced by the Taínos, an Arawakan-speaking people, circa A.D. 600. The Taínos called the island Kiskeya or Quisqueya, meaning "mother of the earth", as well as Haití or Aytí, and Bohio. They engaged in farming and fishing, and hunting and gathering. There are widely varying estimates of the population of Hispaniola in 1492, including one hundred thousand,three hundred thousand, and 400,000 to 2 million. By 1492 the island was divided into five chiefdoms. Within a few years following the arrival of Europeans the population of Taínos had declined drastically. By 1711 the Taíno numbered just 21,000..."

Manhattanite, Lautaro,

They oppressed, raped, and murdered us for over 300 years...When we finally become independent what's the first thing we do? We run back to the MASTER for some more...
Then almost 500 years after it all begin, we bankrupt ourselves to build the Caribbean largest white elephant...

What kind of ignorant "lambones" are we?!!!

jacirez said: "...In 1861, after imprisoning, silencing, exiling, and executing many of his opponents and due to political and economic reasons, [President] Santana signed a pact with the Spanish Crown and reverted the Dominican nation to colonial status, the only Latin American country to do so..."

So what? If the DR is the only country to willingly put itself back on the hands of a former metropolis, then Haiti is the only one to ever PAY for its independence, which is way worse in my humble opinion, cuz' they compromised the economic future of their country in their doing so. Why weren't they willing to sustain what they already decided by the force of arms, genius?

LETROUDEBALLEGENEROSO
I am glad that you have aknowleged and explained this chapter of the Dominican History .It could have been lost in the noise of the pseudo-patriotic posts.
Pseudo - patriotic noise can block,distort,or change/interfere with the meaning of a message in human communication.
I got up this morning and I said :God help me say or do somethimg that will make the human kind more rational and less erratic and unstable.

Lautaro,

I don't remember Haiti ever asking France to take them back...correct me if I'm wrong. Furthermore, despite the fact that today Haiti is a failed state, the managed to develop a culture that is decidedly Haitian; embracing the entire spectrum of thier heritage; rather than selectively picking the slices that would "Blanquear la raza..."

Everybody say: Inferiority Complex!!!!

Lautaro,

Ahem! Ahem!
"....in 1905 the U.S obtained Dominican agreement for U.S. administration of Dominican customs, then the chief source of income for the Dominican government. A 1906 agreement provided for the arrangement to last 50 years. The United States agreed to use part of the customs proceeds to reduce the immense foreign debt of the Dominican Republic, and assumed responsibility for said debt..."

jacirez said: "Everybody say: Inferiority Complex!!!!"

Then you have a very warped value system, pal. Cuz' in their agreeing to pay that debt, they not only compromised the future of the country, but their honor as well. Do you consider it manly to pay for the thing that you already got by the force of arms? You will excuse me, but I consider that payment the most cowardly political decision ever made in the history of the island (or in the one of the continent, for that matter).

Lautaro,
See above...

jacirez you conflate positions. In this very thread and many others both myself and Lautaro gladly engage in critiques of Santana's decision., and point out the following POPULAR uprising against the imperials. You asked a question, why is separation from Haiti remembered more often. Laut gave you a perfectly serviceable answer; the length of struggle, the fact that the colonists of those times, men like Santana, had more affinity with Spain. There are many other reasons to explore. But you are more interested in being a thirteen year old than discussion. That is the bottom line with you, so please bug off as asked. Yes I'm proud to come from peasants, the same ones who kicked out these dominators, who never resorted to genocide on this land like the Spaniards and Haitians, who for centuries stayed free from the curse of sugar . Are you proud to be a snot nosed adolescent?

Heck, Mannie, reality itself is the best proof about the rightness of our positions and the foolishness of his acrobatics.

Manhattanite,
"...the length of struggle (22 vs 303 years), the fact that the colonists of those times, men like Santana, had more affinity with Spain(Inferiority Complex)..."

You guys have the audacity to argue that Spanish rule was somehow more "benevolent" than the haitian occupation...
Gizmo said:
"...To: ******* Hayti Simple we became independent from Spain in 1821 without any violent means, it was a period of time when Spain was going through political changes and civil wars..."
letroudeballeGeneroso added,

"...With regards to Santana, IT WAS HAITI WHO PUSHED DR TO ASK SPAIN FOR ADMINISTRATION! Herard invaded DR in 1845. Soulouque invaded DR in 1849 and 1855. Soulouque threatened to re-invade DR in 1859 before he was toppled by his own military tired of invading DR! All of these actions pushed Santana, Baez and others to put DR under a bigger military power for protection!..."

Lautaro,
Are you on crack?
"...reality itself is the best proof about the rightness of our positions..."
What positions?!!!
You call Spain colonial rule in DR "...a former metropolis..." You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge the Spanish Genocide of Quisqueya. Have you no shame?

In light that history is only the set of steps that have led man to be on its present state, which of both paths have the more validity, genius?

Lautaro,
You see? That's the difference (one among many, dare I say) between you and me: I have no problem acknowledging reality. Haiti is FAILED STATE; pure and simple and in every sense of the word. The previous argument was one of historical context only. I am a pragmatist and thus not beholden to ideology or misplaced nationalism.

Your steadfastness in defending the BS that is always posted every time that our detractors want to invalidate our existence as a country only proves that you're lying when you say that you're a pragmatist, cuz' a pragmatist would recognize which decisions in the history of both countries are the ones to make when conducting a country. And worse, those acrobatics of yours only prove what so many people already think about you, that is, that you're only an agent provocateur with an agenda.

Lautaro,

I have never argued against the validity of the successful outcome of our given set of decisions (1492 - 2009). That speaks for itself (Individual decisions, or even a subset of decisions are another matter). On the contrary, I have argued for us to return the favor of 1822. That has been my agenda from the start.
However, in the interest of fairness, we must also admit to our prejudice and selective view of the origins of our cultural heritage...
Blind nationalism is just a front for ignorance. Knowledge is power...and ignorance is death.

"The Dominican people are not involved in a constant orgy of haitian bashing"
There are two distinct issues here: 1) There is the constant racist Haitian-bashing by individuals like yourself and others on this forum 2) There is also the constant manipulation of the common people by Machiavellian and corrupt politicians and the repugnant Dominican elite based on a vulgar anti-Haitianismo or pseudo-patriotism and racism. The latter creates an atmosphere of divide and conquer whereby the reactionary elite often pits the Dominican masses against the Haitian Immigrant Workers and Dominicans of Haitian descent in the DR which undoubtedly gives rise to mob violence against our Brothers and Sisters in different cities and countryside. That has to stop.
Furthermore, none of you are answering the questions about the U.S. occupations of the DR at all and the role of pseudo-patriotism and racism in the DR.

Caonabohayti,

My views are well known. I am a Dominican Nationalist whose nationalism is tempered by rationality and pragmatism. I do not believe in the concept of race (because as applied to human beings, it has no basis in science and is only a recent pseudo-philosophical construct.).

I see Haiti (and its people) as an untapped resource. I believe the problems in Haiti (vís-a-vís illegal immigration into the DR) can be solved to mutual benefit by the Dominican Industrial-Military complex. Given Dominican Republic current economic and military advantage, the nature of Dominican-Haitian relations should be one akin to a protectorate, with DR assuming the lead role.

These are my views and I am willing to defend them and argue for them.

"1) There is the constant racist Haitian-bashing by individuals like yourself and others on this forum"

Caonabohayti, please find a post from me personally that can even remotely be construed as racist and Haitian-bashing. Your making accusations that have no basis in reality and if you take me on my challenge you'll see what I'm about. After you've done so I would very much like an apology.

UN protectorate makes more sense. A DR protectorate would just be classified internationally as
a hostile take over or invasion, similar to the one that occurred in 1804. And it is not something that a
person well versed with Haitian nationalism and international affairs and the immediate international blockade and condemnation that a unilateral move by the DR would cause.
Again the DR has nothing to gain and all to lose, and to make such a preposterous and insane
proposal can only come from a warped mind.
The solutions to the Haitian problem can not come from the DR.

Written by: cibaeño75, 1 Apr 2009 1:00 PM
From: United States, New York City
"1) There is the constant racist Haitian-bashing by individuals like yourself and others on this forum"

Caonabohayti, please find a post from me personally that can even remotely be construed as racist and Haitian-bashing. Your making accusations that have no basis in reality and if you take me on my challenge you'll see what I'm about. After you've done so I would very much like an apology.

Warning: The true master and thread policeman that guards us all, special envoy from the Inquisitor general has spoken.
May you all rise.

generoso,

"...The solutions to the Haitian problem [cannot] come from the DR...."
I think we have a better chance of seeing hell freeze over before Haiti is in any position to clean up its own mess. Given that we are (like it or not) Haiti's Pressure Release Valve, we are stuck with the problem. I say let's solve it and make a profit while we are it...The details on how to accomplish that goal I will leave to the experts. What I am suggesting now is simply to debate the issue…

151 comments in just two days, going for 300!!!!!!
Better put more memory in the computers at DT.LOL

jacirez
And I am breaking my own rule here to address you because you are not being "intellectually honest" and are misrepresenting yourself as Dominican.
Being Dominican does not mean just that your passport or cedúla says "Dominicano".
While I was residing in new York I saw the funniest sight of a Chinese person with his son and they both had Dominican passports, and he didn't speak a word of english or Spanish, at the counter of American Airlines in New York, and talking to the AA person behind the counter he could only point to his son and repeat "My son" over and over again. And the clerk was asking him "How many bags are you going to check in? and he was replying: " My son". So are these two Dominicans? Hell no.
Same as you jacirez, you are not Dominican because you do not think, feel and act like a Dominican, but as a Haitian. Just be a little more honest.
Now I do like the suggestion of making Haiti a UN protectorate that makes more sense.

jacirez 22 vs 300+ years is not the length of the struggles. People in DR were colonists before they were Dominicans. Lautaro spoke to the length and ferocity of organized, armed combat. Dominicans were NOT fighting Haitian rule for all 22 years, especially not the peasant class, and you should know that. It is a compliment to Haitian martial prowess that fighting them was fiercer than perpetually Boba España.

Did Santana have an inferiority complex? Possible but I doubt this pop psych diagnosis is correct about an egotistical strongman caudillo. J as you yourself have argued his wallet and estate and those of his peers drove his decisions.

Finally who in the world has argued about the benevolence of Spain? Not me so quit your 8th grade debate team tactics and stop setting up straw men. GROW UP. Spaniards in DR and throughout the Americas were incompetent buffoons, terrible imperial administrators from a society an age behind the rest of Europe. So much promise, please GROW UP

generoso,

I would be willing to compromise and support making Haiti a UN protectorate--as long as the DR has some say in its internal affairs. We have to ensure that whatever measures are taken in regards to Haiti, the Dominican Republic is not adversely affected. I would also insist that these measures have as their stated aim the creation of the necessary conditions that would make crossing the border into DR illegally unnecessary (or a losing proposition)...
As far as questioning my patriotism, all I can say is: To each its own.

“...Vengo por Haití porque no puedo hacerlo por otra parte; pero si alguien predente manchar mi nombre, decidle que Yo soy la Bandera Nacional…”
--Fransico del Rosario Sanchez--

what victory? this is big news to me. when us haitians took over the other 2/3 of the island, we had no resistance and we kept it for 43 years.
after argument with spain, brittish and united states to respect the treaty of wiswick signed in 1695 when spain ceded 1/3 of hispaniola to france.
we seized the french part and give you ur independance.
u get ur independance from haiti not from spain as some of u always said.
the worse problem we had between the two countries was the trujillo killings in 1935.
remember trujillo was haitian
stop sending black dominican back to haiti because of their skin.
stop the hate.
are you gonna send sammi sosa back to haiti?
let me know.
i am proud to be haitian and we are the only caribean nation who colonized another nation
it's over , you cant change that
kooloo from haiti- poor and proud

Well, Caonabohaiti, I could ask you the same thing: why the haitian population didn't rose up as one man when the US invaded the country both in 1994 and 2004? Moreover, why the men in the haitian military fled like sissies when confronted with small US commandos in 94' (some of them disguised as women and priests, as some of my sources have told me)?

kooloo,

Much love and Respect. Please excuse my compatriots. They're simply proud of the current turn of events (Haiti being a failed state and all)...
I am more interested in solving today's problem by creating the necessary conditions in Haiti so that you folks can prosper in your own land. I just want to make sure we are well compensated for our good intentions...

"what victory? this is big news to me."

I guess that in your world the Dominican Republic is still a part of the Haitian state. It's good that your proud to be haitian. Good for you. But it shows very little class to come on what's basically an ethnic website to belittle the people that said ethnic site is concerned with by make light of their history. Are you here just to spar or to seek genuine dialogue?

Kooloo made some excellent points here. To go a little further, we are the most fervent critics of our leaders in Haiti including our repugnant ruling classes. The Haitian ruling classes and the Dominican ruling classes are the same idiots and oppressors of the masses on both sides of the island. We are proud Haitians not only because we are fighters for Freedom but also because we do not identify with our rotten ruling classes in Haiti under the pretext of nationalism. The problem here is that some of you identify so much with your own rotten ruling classes under the pretext of nationalism that you are condemned to go with them in the trashcan of history where they all belong. We Haitians who are naturally true fighters for freedom are designing and building together with other fighters for freedom in the Dominican Republic, the Caribbean and Latin America the solution the world has been waiting for so long. So stop eating dead chickens and fight for a glorious future.

What a roll man . PORFAVOR MI GENTE . lol lol lol . The Dominicans and the Leonel puppet are DANCING merengue in the streets as the Haitians are re-occupying the country before thier very eyes . Dominican independence is going down to Cuba on a raft faster than Chavez can pump oil while Russia is preparing to hang thier flag over Columbus tomb . It looks like the The Haitians have a little competition in these parts after all . lol lol lol .

To: *******Hayti Again the Dominican elites and the so called Haitian elites dont dance to the beat of the same drum, i think you're truly delusional C****** Hayti. The Dominican elite are mostly descendants of the same people that fought the Haitian invading forces of the past. If theirs two groups that hate each other more are these two. The Dominican elites where affected the most when the Haitian occupation occurred there lands were confiscated and there property, the Haitian constitution forbade whites from owning land or property numbnuts. So how can you come up with you're dumb analysis and answer, read Hayti read.....

i was in Puerto Plata for 10 days, Boy ! I discovered how regular Dominicans and Haitians are sharing whatever they have and are supporting one another.
One would never think that Haitians are sharing the little they get from parents , friends ,boy friends and girlfriends from Haiti , Canada,Us with their Dominuicans bothers and sisters.
What a refreshing and hopeful reality from the tempestuous clash of intellect and vain patriotism displayed here.
I asked a Dominican friend : what is the Haitian taking away from you and his replied was :what would a Haitian be taking away from someone who does not have anything to start with.
I have read a lot of imaginative and creative minds here who will just be making a living writing scary novels that would scare the hell out of the Haitian and the Dominicans
What about this for title ?
MY EMOTIONAL JOURNEY IN SEARCH FORE THE MEANING OF THE WORLD PEREJIL

How do you all explain the degeneracy of Haiti by chopping down the trees and how come they don't fish if they are in that island? black leaders love spending 99% of the funds on themselves and the other 1% on the people.

It seems that your living on a big delusional bubble, ettienc01, cuz' if that weren't so, then how the heck would you explain the ocurrence of things like this:

http://www.espacinsular.org/spip.php?article6753

¿¿¿???

"i was in Puerto Plata for 10 days, Boy ! I discovered how regular Dominicans and Haitians are sharing whatever they have and are supporting one another."

Etiennc-Sharing is a cultural behavior practiced among impoverished Haitians as a method of survival which developed over time and has worked well to alievate the pangs of misery. However, it is not necessarily a unique tribal customs of Haitians, but rather typical for those who live within communal societies in various parts of the world, particularly in jungle like habitats, among members of secluded religious sects, and also in rural and less developed communities but practically unknown in highly developed urban societies. And by the way, if a Dominican partakes in this practice particularly with other Haitians, he is not a "regular Dominican." I can assure you of that.

"I asked a Dominican friend : what is the Haitian taking away from you and his replied was :what would a Haitian be taking away from someone who does not have anything to start with."

Etiennc-If I had a Haitian friend and he would approach me with that same question, the most likely, polite and civilized manner is to give a diplomatic response, such as the one you got and a normal way for a Dominican to reply. That would be exactly how I also would have answered particularly if I were dealing with you on a personal level and without going into deep thought. Now that does not mean that later on when the timing is right, the issue will be discussed in greater detail. Dominicans normally do not like to hurt the feelings of other who are close or are in the process of developing a friendship. We like to keep things cordial, unless circumstances warrant it to be otherwise. And believe me, I can assure you of that as well.

Etienc le cojien el pelo you know how innocent he/she is. must likelly talking to two haitian one pretending to be dominican the other a proud haitian like jacirez. when i was there a haitian came over trying to sell me a coco i asked him how long he had been living in DR he told me he was dominican. I told him really then i come from mars. nevertheless Puerto Plata se esta perdiendo. Little by little Haitian people are taking over. I was in shock to see how many illegal Haitian setting it there last year. Everywhere I went either I follow them or they were following me. Es como una plaga si un haitiano se muda a un vecindario el dominicano de el lado se va para dejar su espacio a otro haitiano. i can see why all the law enforement here got arrested. We need the freaking govt to start order for mass deportation from Puerto Plata ASAP or we risk losing it.

"I have read a lot of imaginative and creative minds here who will just be making a living writing scary novels that would scare the hell out of the Haitian and the Dominicans."

Etiennc-How many times have people been alerted of approaching natural disasters yet fail to take heed to warning. It is human tendency to believe nothing will happen directly to them. They become indifferent or simply don't react to the possibility of a tragedy. They think things happen to others, never to them. What makes the Haitian issue any different? The volcano lies dormant, but will soon errupt and very few people are doing little to prevent an approaching tragedy. We are talking about two groups of impoverish people competing for limited resources. They will be killing each other for crumbs and you fail to foresee it. Trujillo murdered 37,000 Haitians in the past, what do you think will occur in the future, "en tiempos de vacas flacas." Do you think that time will never come? U wrong

I'm not a warmonger, but I think that we will to go war again in the future. It's one of those feelings you get when you know something is coming.

Santana,
The good side of him was, He knew what and how the Haitians would end up like, and he did not want the dame fate for DR, in his own mind he knew the lack of future social potential the new free slaves had. He just has to observe Africa to derive his conclusions. Just like all African countries, Haiti would end up like them, just a matter of time.

Just like in the Wise Salomon story about the two women fighting over one child, he did what was best for DR.
And for the Haitians that don’t know this Christianity bible story it goes like this....

Two women went to King Salomon disputing motherhood over one child. THe wise king Salomon said to his guard to bring a sword to slide the baby in two halves to give to each of them. The real mother in fear came up and stops him. “The real mother gave up her precious baby in order to save him”

But you Haitian poster do not know of such thing. Instead you keep on hurting your own people by enraging us with absurd stupidity. In general, it is to our advantage that you guys keep on with your absurdity, without knowing you have started a patriotic movement among Dominicans.

"We are proud Haitians not only because we are fighters for Freedom but also because we do not identify with our rotten ruling classes in Haiti under the pretext of nationalism. "

caonabohayti, a very strong argument can be made for identifying the causes of haiti's present state by putting the blame squarley on the shoulders of said country's elites. It does not matter if the masses do not identify with them. They hold all the cards regardless. Tthe haitian people have been more than exploited by their own leaders. Before you come on here and criticize the Dominican people because of their relationship with their elites as you see it I suggest you tend to the much more detrimental relationship that the haitian people share with their elites.

Regardless of what we know or say, every country has its own history of war and barbaric acts-thats how we have come to what we call modernism. Every country that borders another country has a history of killing and deceive and only time will tell if this will ever end, because even now in the 21st century we see it happing more than ever before. Before, 5000 and 6000 thousands were killed and those were masive numbers, now we talk about 10s of thousands and is a common thing.
Every country from Germany to china has history of pain, things that we knwo we could have done better, but back then we didnt know better and took the wrong approach. Now all we have to do is to realize that as humans we have to preserve our species since we are the only animals with the ability to reason and put our thoughts together before taking action (at least most of the times).
http://nicolasdelvalle.wordpress.com/

Nicolas Del Valle-Thank you for the web site, IT IS EXCELLENT !!!
I encourage everyone to look it up. Very Inspirational and food for thought

The cocks are viciously bloodying each others in the cockpit
Their owners are hysterically inciting and exciting them
The agitated betters are crossing their fingers
And the spectators are quitely siping their rhum and smiling

I just love that sport., wish it was legal here in the US for its cultural relevance,

Etiennc-"The cocks are viciously bloodying each others in the cockpit
Their owners are hysterically inciting and exciting them."

You communicate in riddles and alegorical language.
You are just another Haitian man who speaks with forked tongue.

Nice, but in this forum that is not what it is all about. Just spill your guts and spit your fists and come out punching. Justs make sure it is a clean fight. Now, let see which one flew over the cuchoo's nest.

guillermone, Hear, hear....

etiennc01, don't be afraid to get bloody....

cibaeno75,
Mine wasn't a criticism of the Dominican people but an observation of some posts on this forum where some participants seem to identify so much with the corrupt, bankrupt, anti-Haitianismo ideology of the Dominican elite. The fact is, and you are right, the Haitian people are exploited, oppressed, and dominated by the Haitian elite. However, the same is true in the Dominican Republic, namely, the Dominican people are also exploited, oppressed, and dominated by the Dominican elite. The nature of these relationships is class-based. The Haitian and Dominican workers have more in common than a Dominican worker and his/her Dominican boss or a Haitian worker and his/her Haitian boss. That's why nationalism is poison to the worker because it might cloud his/her concept of friend and enemy. Internationalism is in the true interest of workers everywhere. To be Dominican or Haitian means something to me only from the viewpoint of the workers fighting for justice on the island.

Caonabohayti
Not a criticism but an observation? That is called coping out.
The internationalism you referred to for convenience purposes is also the call for unification of the island.
Your bashing of both the Dominican and Haitian elite's is just searching for a scapegoat or for a convenient mutual enemy to take the burden of the Haitian ruling class and denial as well as irresponsibility for the last 200 years.
Your simplistic outlook is serf serving as well saying that nationalism is poison,
they are also pure sophism, portraying facts that together appear true but they are individually very different.
Our social justice and struggles are not the Haitian social justice or struggles, we are different countries with different goals and aims, different religion and languages, different genetics, different economic accomplishments and status,
different political and historical views, and different races.
Our struggles are different and unique, not the same.

Still whupping on the Haitians I see.....I have my heavy duty merde shield up so as not to be soiled by the interchange of insults and racial and ethnic slurs coming from both sides ......there seems to be a lull in the action as we await the next turd to be thrown into the fan.....Peanuts Popcorn cold beer and programs cant tell the players without a program

Is that your final choice and opinion?

there will be many more opinions and stolen ones oops! I mean borrowed ones as well

I have not yet been apprehended by the stuffed shirt copyright police as yet but the same branch of SUPER PC word police got me

Where is it that workers have gained from internationalism? The kinds of politics and ideals that I'm guessing are being spoken about under this label 'Internationalism' are not organic to workers but come from urban technocrats of left and right. Workers are naturally suspicious of being told to forego the tribe of their fathers, they know the tribe and solidarity to those in close proximity to you serves a protective purpose, even if the leadership has become rotten. Look what right wing internationalism has done to the American worker, Is that why workers should renounce nationalism, so their leaders feel free to ship their jobs overseas and import even the most rudimentary goods? I hear the good intentions but I lalso understand the pitfalls and suspicions of asking the mass to look past their patria.

Viva right wing internationalism down with creeping Marxism

GC
Dictator and mass murderer Trujillo had little sense of humor and a weakness for hard liquor.
It is said that he dictated the terrible Haitian massacre while he was "under the influence".
He took immense pleasure from public humiliation and sadistic disgrace of opponents, and he dwelled in brutal torture as a pastime.
You are so proud of dictators like Trujillo and Franco that you have their picture in display, next to your handle.
You and your idols are one and the same.
And BTW I agree with both Manhattanite and cibaeño's75 public censure of your racially slanderous "beaner" remark.

you are a joke and how dare you question my motives for displaying a picture of two tyrants....show me in one post where I have not condemned the behavior of Trujillo....you on the other hand in your defense of the DR against the Haitians...well that is another story is it not ....dont make me laugh with your holier than thou horse puckey.....you got caught.... now sucking up to them will do you no good ...the curtain has been pulled back exposing the...... Professor of OZ

Do I make myself clear .....Man of the movable ethics

genoroso if this was meant as a joke ....I apologize.........You are so proud of dictators like Trujillo and Franco that you have their picture in display, next to your handle.
You and your idols are one and the same.
And BTW I agree with both Manhattanite and cibaeño's75 public censure of your racially slanderous "beaner" remark

Although the word is generally considered pejorative, its usage is not always overtly offensive and can be fairly benign depending on the context (similar to the term "frog" for a French person.) Though perhaps once considered strictly offensive, it appears that the term may be going through a phase of melioration, where the negative connotation of an ethnic slur is "reclaimed" by those it is directed against and used in a neutral or even positive manner......beaner beaner beaner beaner Cheech and Chong ....yes Tommy Chong the Canuck guitar player from Vancouver and senior Stoner

GC
Shame on you GC, caught in fraganti stealing from wikipedia and not giving them credit.
Beaner
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Beaner is a slang term, widely regarded as inapropriate, that refers to people of Mexican descent or, more broadly, Mestizos.The term originates from the prevalence of frijoles pintos and other beans in Mexican food.
(You stole this: )
Although the word is generally considered pejorative, its usage is not always overtly offensive and can be fairly benign depending on the context (similar to the term "frog" for a French person.) Though perhaps once considered strictly offensive, it appears that the term may be going through a phase of melioration, where the negative connotation of an ethnic slur is "reclaimed" by those it is directed against and used in a neutral or even positive manner.[1]

You could be fined, demanded, kicked while you are down and tortured by the thread police.

the Super PC Police got me yesterday et tu brute have joined their posse

Have to go where the money is GC.
I only suspected that you had Julius Ceasar dictator ambitions,
but by referring specifically to the Caesar's last words according to Shakespeare, then the assumption taken by you, if I am Brutus, is that you are the Caesar that was stabbed by consensus
of the moral inquisidors.

the morally bankrupt and ethically challenged go where the money is.....have you ever thought that maybe you have the ethics of a Limbo Dancer .........How Low can you Go ?......only time will tell

Look who is talking about moral rectitude and ethics, don't make me laugh. LOL.
Now you are attacking the limbo dancers that are just entertainers making a living.
Keep praying to your idols Trujillo and Perón for their guidance and forgiveness, you have been
condemned and chastised time and time again by public opinion and are still keep trying to be a nuisance. Forgive him Lord, he does not understand the negative consequences of his actions.

for you Professor of OZ...



The Lone Ranger was ambushed and captured by an enemy Indian War Party.

Indian War Council



The Indian Chief proclaims,



"So, YOU are the great Lone Ranger" ...





"In honour of the Harvest Festival,

YOU will be executed in three days."


"Before I kill you, I grant you three requests"

"What is your FIRST request???'

The Lone Ranger responds, "I'd like to speak to my horse."



The Chief nods and Silver is brought

before the Lone Ranger who whispers in

Silver's ear, and the horse gallops away.

Later that evening, Silver returns with

a beautiful blonde woman on his back.

As the Indian Chief watches, the blonde enters the Lone Ranger's tent and spends the night.

The next morning the Indian Chief admits he's impressed.
"You have a very fine and loyal horse",

"But I will still kill you in two days."

"What is your SECOND request???"

The Lone Ranger again asks to speak to his horse.

Silver is brought to him, and he again whispers in the horse's ear.

As before, Silver takes off and disappears over the horizon.

Later that evening, to the Chief's surprise, Silver again returns, this time with a voluptuous brunette, more attractive than the blonde.


She enters the Lone Rangers tent and spends the night.


The following morning the Indian Chief is again impressed.

"You are indeed a man of many talents,"

"But I will still kill you tomorrow."

"What is your LAST request ???"


The Lone Ranger responds,
"I'd like to speak to my horse, .... alone."

The Chief is curious, but he agrees,

and Silver is brought to the Lone Ranger's tent..


Once they're alone, the Lone Ranger grabs Silver by both ears, looks him square in the eye and says,


"Listen Very Carefully!!!!"

FOR... THE... LAST... TIME...


I SAID ...



"BRING POSSE"

You got me there GC you got me there. LOL.

Hi Yall,
As I'm reading all of your comments on this subject, I can't help feel (as a Haitian) alienated and disliked. Due to the fact that I am not up to par on your history, I am in no position to cast judgements or personnal opinions on MARCH 30th.
What I can tell you is that after living in the States for 10 years, I came back to a very different Haiti than the one I left. It's sad and somewhat discouraging. Especially after I took my first trip to Dominican Republic and seeing the enormous difference between the two countries only seperated by a river. I cried like a baby. I remember when I was a little girl I never cared much for the Dominicans. I used to think of them as racist and narcissitic. Although, my point of view hasn't changed much but I must say that the Dominicans have really stepped up and picked themselves up by the boot straps. I enjoy visiting your country and I am happy to see the progress that's been made. Hopefully my fellow haitians will follow suit.