NEW YORK.- Dominican parties with representation in New York will stage a protest at 5 p.m. today, to demand the establishment of congressional elected posts abroad, in the constitutional reform being debated in the Revisory Assembly.
The ruling PLD and allies, the opposition PRD, and PRSC party and their allies, emergent groups and leftist movements, will hold a press conference in the PRSC offices located on Broadway, to make public their demand and to denounce the delays in approving legislators abroad.
They’ll also request the clarification of part of the agreement between president Leonel Fernandez and opposition leader Miguel Vargas, which they affirm is subject to confusion.
Leaders of the three majority parties allege they’ve received unofficial information from national leaders of their respective organizations, on the possibly that Senate seats won’t be granted.
The most recent statement was on April 23 during an Upper Manhattan luncheon hosted by Vargas, who said he agreed granting congressional seats for the diaspora, whereas Fernandez’s proposal would guarantee at least seven deputies and two senators.
It was reported that Senate seats won’t be considered because of "territorial reasons" and that the deputies abroad will be incorporated in the 2016 elections.
SOURCE: diariolibre.com.do
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
El Pais de las Maravillas todo es posible
From: United States, Richmond, Texas
What a crazy idea, they can vote in elections by absentee ballot and that influences the local politics. Wait a minute, what about the Dentist / senator who spends more time in NYC that the DR, seems to me they already have a representative!
Written by: juanb, 27 May 2009 10:30 AM
From: Dominican Republic
I have a cousin living in Alaska. Let's give Alaska a senate seat as well.
As for a clarification of the agreement reached between Vargas and Fernandez, here it is:
They have agreed that whatever party is in power can do whatever they want. They can start phony projects, inflate their salaries, waste money however they wish, and most importantly they can (and will) stuff the pockets of their parties supporters with absolutely no concern for the will or well being of the Pueblo.
Got it?
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
juanb for the first time it has become clear to me thank you for your clarification
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
can you imagine what the parliaments of Ireland and Italy would be like if they followed this crazy idea ...these Dominicans living abroad who seem to rejoice in being critical of everything at home can still vote in elections in the DR ....A really stupid idea
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
beyond stupid
From: United States
Diasporas of Italy and Ireland happened at a time when leaving home meant leaving for good. It also was a time where you could not easily support a family back home in the old world from the US. Considering the direct financial links that the modern DR diaspora have to home, the ease o returning for visits, and their concentration in a few locales, it is not such a stupid idea. At the very least it merits consideration. Representation doesn't have to be based on geography, but could simply be one or two reps in the lower chamber who answer for the whole of the diaspora. The diaspora will only continue to grow because there is no end in sight to Dominican emigration ... and they will continue to climb and have more and more to offer DR. Dominican nation should consider the most effective ways to ensure their continued loyalty. In the modern world DR must leverage any tools available for development, and the diaspora offers 1MM+ individuals who bring human resources and capital.
From: United States
Diasporas of the past happened across an ocean, ours is barely across a sea. Old diasporas happened in a world without satellite TV or internet ... a world without reliable long distance phones! Back then you arrived in US to become manual labor and only with good fortune and work achieved anything more. Today US receives many with open arms, education etc. so you become an ASSET and not just excess population, to the nation you left.
Remaining true to a heritage back then was a mountain of a hurdle. Today despite being in NYC I'm surrounded by Dominicans, have racks of DR books, visit Dominican sites every day. A few hours and a few hundred bucks gets me there in person. I could go on with differences. The model of early 20th C. diasporas has lessons but should not restrict us. In the 21st C. Dominicans should take a good look at who the constituencies of government can be, and whether it benefits DR to embrace their diaspora and leverage it for growth.
From: United States
Finally consider the case of the oldest diaspora of all. When the Jewish homeland was lost the culture survived via this diaspora...and in the end they are the ones who returned and revived their land. All I ask is to give this issue thought, and not a kneejerk reaction ... 'how can foreigners have a seat in our government??'. Remember these foreigners are your brothers, uncles, nephews and grandchildren who can each make the choice to plug into Dominican culture or not. What would you rather encourage them to do?
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
I would encourage them to follow the models in every other country in the world and give an absentee vote and can any one tell me how it can be decided if a Dominican is leaving permanently or temporarily . In most countries prison inmates cannot vote and as NY prisons have a high percentage of Dominicans , will they also have a vote ??
From: United States, Yonkers, NY
Que ridiculoso!
From: United States
If prisoners don't vote in DR why would they from abroad? There is a time period set for naturalization as a citizen. A similar period could go for expatriate status. DR is not the only nation considering legislative representation for expatriates....this issue is being considered or has already been implemented in places as different as Australia, Brazil, France, Italy, Ireland, Croatia, Portugal. This is not even an exhaustive list it took me one minute on Google to gather.
The modern phenomenon of financial and physical mobility alongside intense informational connectivity makes this an issue worth serious consideration to any nation with large expatriate populations. Maybe absentee voting is enough, but a seat in a legislative house offers more to expatriates and that may benefit DR.
From: United States
A person living abroad may not have had an extended stay in his original local DR community in some time... his visits may be to the large cities or other locations. Also by the proposed constitutional language there WILL be Dominican citizens who never resided in a specific locality. In both cases does it really make sense for the citizen's input to go into a particular LOCAL bucket? Shouldn't his votes be for a representative of the other DR citizens in a similar circumstance as an expatriate, who can bring to the legislative deliberations the opinions and inputs of Dominican citizens who have seen some different democratic forms and policies?
Well I've said my parts for your consideration. I'd like to hear ONE reason why this is so 'ridiculous' and how it would hurt Dominicans instead of just stating it is ridiculous. Once upon a time King George and his cousins throughout Europe thought colonial councils and self rule were ridiculous.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny what are you saying you want to run for Dominican office while living in the USA ? Ciby can manage your campaign Yeah .........what a scam
From: United States
GC I'm no politician I just have opinions... but if I might toot my own horn the expatriate community could certainly do worse than me.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
well do what those patriots from eastern Europe and the Baltic States did return and get your hands dirty working to fix things in the DR..... I imagine you driving around with Charley " Cheeseball " Rangel picking up the envelopes in El Alto .....ciby driving you and Chucky in the backseat counting
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
charleys so old and can hardly count anymore you should be able to beat him out of most of his percentage before you kick him out of the car on your way back to the upper eastside and your crib
From: United States, New York City
"can you imagine what the parliaments of Ireland and Italy would be like if they followed this crazy idea ..."
Italy does have parliamentarians elected abroad.
From: United States, New York City
"manny what are you saying you want to run for Dominican office while living in the USA ? Ciby can manage your campaign "
I agree with Manny. The Dominican community can do worse than him. As a dual citizen, Manny you have my vote:)
From: United States
This is beyond stupid. Not to say that the idea is stupid but applying it to Dominican diaspora is blatantly stupid and naive. Knowing the Dominican Republic they will consider this idiotic proposal. Ladies gentlemen It's quite simple "you shii or get off the pot". Make up your mind, and stop exercising the old adage about wanting your cake and eating it too.
In the end what will it really accomplish? Nothing just another person on the payroll at the expense of the people and expanding the corrupt empire and status quo. Are we so stupid and naive to think that this representation will be exercised with honesty and integrity and speak in the interest of the people? Yea. I can only imagine the clever quidproquo agreements that will rise from such an appointment. People wake up.
From: United States, New York City
"This is beyond stupid. "
Why is this stupid? You say to "get of the pot" but we've never severed our ties to DR even after being hear for generations. New York has more Dominicans than Santiago for God's sake. It truly is the republic's second city and as such I don't see why Dominicans out here shouldn't have say in the way things are ran on the island.
From: United States
I'm not saying they should'nt have a say. I'm saying I dot trust the entire Dominican Political system.
read my the last complete sentence of the last paragraph.
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
i suppose nothing is so condemning of the idea as the contribution from cibaeño...he writes that the Domincans have been in NY for generations ..ie they have made their homes there ..but they still want to have an influence in the DR ...just apply for a postal vote
And as for Manhattanite ,,well all those countries that you mention may have visited the idea generations ago but none implemented it ..but ladronaso is probably correct when he says ..that knowing the DR they will probably consider this idiotic proposal
From: United States
Consider all the American living abroad in foreign countries as expat etc do they have a congressional seat representing them? No they have embassies that represent their interest and if they want to excercise their political voice they do it through their congressional representation in the U.S. not a special congressman living in Xandu representing the American community of Xanadu.
From: United States, New York City
"Consider all the American living abroad in foreign countries as expat etc do they have a congressional seat representing them?"
Some do. The example of the italians has already been cited.
From: United States
Too bad you imagine me that way GC, I won't share what I imagine about you. The question is not who Manhattanite is but what what are the negatives of expatriate representation.
From: United States
double
Written by: juanb, 27 May 2009 2:07 PM
From: Dominican Republic
GC:
How come everyone knows its you?
From: United States
What Dominicans need to do collectively is force their senators from their province to get on the job. If 100 Dominicans from la Vega organized collectively they can move to impeach their senator if so they wish. They dont need more middlemen.
From: United States
double
From: United States, New York City
"i suppose nothing is so condemning of the idea as the contribution from cibaeño...he writes that the Domincans have been in NY for generations ..ie they have made their homes there ..but they still want to have an influence in the DR ..."
I don't understand your first sentence. As for the rest of what you wrote: Paisa, si acaso quieres considerarme de esa forma, no importa adonde en el mundo yo naci, no importa en que idioma me dieron instruccion cuando aun era niño, yo soy y siempre sere Dominicano. Poco me importa si personas como usted me lo considera o no. La comunidad Dominicana en la ciudad de Nueva York tienen bastante intereses en su pais de origen y por lo tanto si es posible nosotros debemos tener algo de representacion en nuestro pais de origen.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny cant take a joke I thought you would like that little picture of corruption you and Charley with ciby as the driver and you could all stay in Rangels beach house in Punta Cana when you come to visit and play dominoes ....I am with the ladrone on this one.... you guys could not hack living here anyway
From: United States
ladronaso your skepticism towards DR politics is understood, but that isn't a specfic argument against expatriate representation ... just typical DT.com cynicism. I would also say that a US embassy is something very removed from a Dominican consul as far as ability to look out fr expatriates go. Finally, expatriates left as there was no pot to shit in at all...now I'm suggestig this measure be considered as a way to ensure the expatriate community is led and incentivized to improve the communal shitting pot you all consider DR to be.
Cib already pointed out multiple nations do this. Consideration of doing it is going on as we speak in many nations. It is not something that was thought about generations ago before connectivity, under the disconnected circumstances I described above.
Finally although you guys havent said much beyond 'it's stupid' thanks for replying on topic and not attacking my character like GC. I post my opinions in good faith and believe you do as well!
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny you are kidding me ! attacking you ? you really do take yourself far to seriously manny Listen that guy that is going to be the next prime minister of Canada lived outside the country for 30 years but he still had to return to be part of the process...
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny you would never make a good politician your skin is far to thin or that is your strategy " Righteous Indignation " Attacking your character puuuulease ! ....What do you get when you cross an elephant and a politician ......answer ,,,,an Elephant that steals
From: United States
just because other countries have done this doesnt translate into a positive idea. Every country is different, and considering the rampant corruption in the entire social Fabric of the Dominican Republic I doubt this could implemented effectively. Also what works in Ireland or Xanadu perhaps wont work in DR. I seriously doubt that Dominicans could exercise this privileged with integrity.
I can visualize some prominent Dominican bedeguero in New York having a seat and needing to expand his businesses in DR, what will it cost him? Well that depends how well he leverages his political clout? Or what his fellow crony business associates will exchange or what trade offs can he make. Yea, tell me it wont happen! And i say Keep believing in Dominican fairy tales.
From: United States, New York City
"just because other countries have done this doesnt translate into a positive idea. Every country is different, "
Indeed. And ours has something like 20% of it's population living abroad. All of you need to take that into consideration when comparing us to other nations.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
ciby come on both you and manny were born in the USA now you want to be a full time Dominican Politicians ....Is the job market that bad ?we know the politico job pays better when you include the graft etc but you guys are having middle age crazies prematurely
Written by: Bailarin 
, 27 May 2009 3:05 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Yawn ! I repeat . Its so much easier to spill your cerveza in the bleachers than to spill your blood and guts on the battlefield . Attention ! Borders will be closing in 10 minutes .
From: United States, New York City
"ciby come on both you and manny were born in the USA now you want to be a full time Dominican Politicians ....Is the job market that bad ?we know the politico job pays better when you include the graft etc but you guys are having middle age crazies prematurely"
LOLOL..you're a sick man. I wouldn't covet any seat that might be created here. I'm only speaking for myself, though. I don't know if my fellow New Yorker has any political aspirations:)
From: United States, New York City
"Yawn ! I repeat . Its so much easier to spill your cerveza in the bleachers than to spill your blood and guts on the battlefield . Attention ! Borders will be closing in 10 minutes . "
You're not Dominican, you don't reside in New York, so how on earth does this thread have anything to do with you other than to provide another opportunity to drop by with your childish "look at me" attitude.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
I hurt mannys feeling by calling him a potential crook now he wont play anymore.....come on out and play manny
From: United States
cib I've already said I'm no politician, I just have opinions. One prob with net ideologues is not understanding a politician's job is to compromise...his ideology and philosophy and *GASP* sometimes even his integrity. As Mr. Corleone told his wife in Godfather, not admitting corruption always exists begs the question "who is being naive?"
ladronaso you are right I have no way of assuring the expatriate legislator wouldn't be another sleazeball. However with your attitude I still don't get why bother with ANY hopes. I don't doubt corruption is going on, but corruption is NOT a total progress killer. As I said above, we have to accept that part of a politician's job is to compromise many things, ethics included sometimes. Nations can get ahead despite greedy leaders...corporations get ahead BECAUSE of greedy leaders :P So I'm still looking for an argument against expatriate representation, as your argument though completely valid, is a general argument against all politics.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny this is representation without taxation it begs the question ....Why would the citizens who reside in the DR want a bunch of kibitzers from Union City messing in their stuff pray tell
From: United States, Richmond, Texas
If absentee voting is passed THAT IS representation no need for an physical person to represent those who choose to live outside of the DR. How many of those individuals have businesses both in the US (or other country) and the DR?
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
would you guys be responsible for what color they were going to paint the embassy in NY and what else ?
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny Everett Dirksen and LBJ were master politicians and yes they worked very well together LBJ is my favorite study as president and his political career is exactly what you are talking about
Written by: Bailarin , 27 May 2009 3:43 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Graffiti looks best in black !
From: United States
TS thanks for your reply. I would answer your point is still not an argument against expatriate representation. Representation without taxation is not an evil, only the reverse is. No expatriates don't pay taxes, our funds go directly to our families. In essence a voluntary taxation; this is the libertarian ideal no?
I've outlined the positives, chiefly ensuring an engaged and loyal diaspora. Where are the negatives? What is the damage that one representative in the lower chamber would wreck, and how does that damage weigh against the potential good?
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
Brilliant paint the embassy in Grafitti like a subway car from the 70s I like it
Written by: Bailarin , 27 May 2009 3:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
More like Morrisons grave .
From: United States, Richmond, Texas
I guess my question would be, "What could a representative of Dominican expatriates do in the legeslative body in the DR that would change things for those expats where they are currently living" Currently the US house has a representative from Guam, PR, and DC and none of them can cast a vote only represent the peoples of the areas. The DR legislature can currenly control remittances, taxation on property owned by expat Dominicans, importation duties etc. What would be different if an Expat representative were there? Would a significant differance be made to justify adding another Senator or member of the lower body. Remember they currently are the highest paid on the planet.
http://civilrightsblog.org/Dominican%20Republic.htmlFrom: United States, New York City
" What would be different if an Expat representative were there?"
A voice, that would be the difference.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny this is like the Puerto Rican delegate to Congress sits on committees has access but no voting rights or fully active in all governmental processes ....that is the Kibitzer from Union City....why would the citizens from the DR allow this I see it as not being fair to the Dominican residents
From: United States
GC I can take a joke but haven't you figured out yet that not everything I say is for you to joke about? Sometimes, just sometimes, I'm looking to engage people. You sure are dense but here is a clue, if it directly involves improving the lot of Dominicans and I have bothered to fill three comments with my opinion ... then it is probably not a gag :P Thanks for posting a genuine reply.
What would be the charge of such a representative? No not the color of the embassy. Let me ask you to name the smallest constituency in DR and tell me the charge of their rep...the color of a barn? It doesn't work that way. In theory reps are there not to decide specific local matters like the color of a building because they are judged by their peers as equipped to decide on larger matters. Amongst the 1mm+ expatriates I think we can elect one as a competent person to decide and compromise on issues affecting us all, in DR or abroad. In fact being tied to no geography = less pork from this rep.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
Tex as a former resident how could you forget the USVI shame shame
From: United States, Richmond, Texas
No Fred, I have not forgotten. Talk about a joke. That would have been a definition of a "Tin-horn government". But then again we did have the Mont Pellier Hut Domino Club, and Buster.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
oink oink
From: United States
TS good questions but still not one solid negative to expatriate representation among them. Why do those territories have a rep in COngress? Because it is an important political symbol that on some level the US Congress supposedly cares about their constituency (though apparently not enough to let them have a vote). A non-voting rep would be a decent first step, but also a slap in the face the same way it is a slap to those lowly territories + DC. Giving expatriates a genuine, voting voice in the legislature, alongside their presidential vote, generates genuine political buy in amongst the community. I have stated above the value in human resources of this buy in to a developing nation.
I hope any still following the thread can see that while an upside to CONSIDERING this idea has been capably presented the downside has yet to appear. Also note the most vocal opposition is not coming from either Dominicans or Dominican expatriates. Hmmm. Not such a ridiculous idea now....
Written by: Bailarin , 27 May 2009 4:05 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Ive long outlasted G.C Manny . But really , Sidney Crosby Helps the Penguins chances of winning the Stanley Cup this year only if hes fighting with his team on the front line where he belongs .He does them no good sitting in the press box as a color analyst calling play by play .
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
Sid the Kid will triumph over all .....Go Leafs....Manny in my opinion the constituency you are trying to round up also think your scheme is out there and will not fly Then again you could run against the incumbent Senator Williams of New Jersey or San Pedro or whatever
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny { Pres. in Exile }in theory your scheme to become a Dominican without having to live there offers many commercial opportunities ie passports to go along with birth certificates and Marriage certificates and God only knows what else.You notice I say scheme because in anyone else hands besides your altruistic self this idea would be turned into a scam very quickly { due to the industriousness of the Dominican people } I also think your idea would run into legal problems in many countries .Maybe it should be modeled like the Gypsies now thats a Diaspora " Manny King of the Gypsies" in NYC.....Please manny what are your thoughts after sleeping on your idea..?..Does this idea have legs? I am serious in a jocular manner
Written by: BASTA, 28 May 2009 9:23 AM
From: Dominican Republic, =Ghetto/Legalize Drugs
jajajaja Williams for Pres.
From: United States, New York City
"Maybe it should be modeled like the Gypsies now thats a Diaspora"
The gypsies have no homeland. Dominicans do.
From: United States
GC you are simply repeating ladronaso's political cynicism. As I said that is a general argument against all democratic governance in DR, not a potential negative of expatriate representation. Those 'commercial opportunities' are already managed by consular offices. In your world where every last Dominican is an industrious crook for sale this idea would be a market improvement ... can't buy the consul? Try the representative.
BTW for all the cynicism around corruption I'll note no one can effectively challenge my assertion above that corruption is not a total progress killer. According to the endless whining corruption has been rampant throughout the reigns of the current DR President...but by the same token observable material progress has been undeniable in the same period. You would have to be blind as Balaguer to not see this.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
According to the endless whining corruption has been rampant throughout the reigns of the current DR President...but by the same token observable material progress has been undeniable in the same period. You would have to be blind as Balaguer to not see this.....................You got that right manny But it is a " gentler less rapacious its my turn venal corruption " than under the hippo and it is an improvement
Written by: Bailarin , 28 May 2009 10:27 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Negative Manny ! I dont understand what you consider to be a defamation of character in your part of society but I DONT BELIEVE I HAVE EVER alluded to Dominicans as a race or country full of crooks . Nor would I employ them , live amongst them, eat, drink and dance with them if that were the truth. ( Not to mention considering marrying one ). If you've ever bothered to come down from the 700 section of your well manicured selection of political activist thread jargon as well as throwing down your pickit sign and bullhorn while actually reading my previous comments , you would perhaps stop judging me . The relationships I have with the Dominican people are perhaps the richest most authentic Ive ever known and I cherish AND RESPECT the People and the country more than I could ever convey in words .
From: United States
Bailarin throughout this thread I haven't addressed you once or even noticed any comment you made as worth response. Disinflate your righteous ego. After this comment I won't notice you again. Stick to sharing hockey metaphors with GC.
GC it may be better or worse than Hippo, I'm not the one to speak on that count. My point is the same is said of every last leader of DR, yet as true as it may be it is also true the march of material progress is visible despite corruption. Now since you are willing to assign degrees of "gentler less rapacious its my turn venal corruption" to a sitting President this again tells me that the corruption argument is not an argument specific to the question of expatriate representation. Given the allegedly stiffer fraud, laundering and racketeering laws in US and Europe one would expect that a legislator for the exterior would be the most venal of all.
Written by: Bailarin , 28 May 2009 11:15 AM
From: Dominican Republic
I stand corrected but I am touched . I thought you were referring to me as G.C . as many others have , but while we are on the subject , who do you like in the cup finals ?
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
Sid the Kid over The Red Army
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
manny you make many good points about corruption but I cannot see proportionate value in the exterior representation vis a vis the potential for abuse . myself as a resident non Dominican I do feel the country moving further and further away from the Trujillo /Balaguer nightmare....Who comes next will be very important
From: United States, New York City
"President Ciby , and his running mate Manny . May I mail in my vote ? "
Damn, you stress me hard. I don't go that way so whatever fanatasies you're entertaining concerning my person I suggest you put an end to them. Damn, I should've never used my real picture as an avatar!!
Written by: Bailarin , 28 May 2009 12:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic
i demand a recount !
Written by: Lautaro, 28 May 2009 7:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Manny said: "Well I've said my parts for your consideration. I'd like to hear ONE reason why this is so 'ridiculous' and how it would hurt Dominicans instead of just stating it is ridiculous. Once upon a time King George and his cousins throughout Europe thought colonial councils and self rule were ridiculous."
Well, I have no reasons to oppose this. After all, one have to consider the fact that NYC have more dominicans than Santiago itself, which is supposed to be the second most important city in the Republic, and besides, the influence of the expats on the economy is greater than the one exerted by many provinces here in the homeland (i.e. the traditionally depressed and abandoned South), so it's fair for them to have a voice and participation on our decision making.
From: United States
Ref:: Manhattanite, 27 May 2009 4:01 PM
TS good questions but still not one solid negative to expatriate representation among them. Why do those territories have a rep in COngress?
=====
Manny they have a rep for the simple reason they are a territory. The US is obliged to permit participation in order to strengthen the ties and politics and protect its interest within its territory. Since when is NY a territory of DR. The major problem with this is, it will create conflicts. It will splinter the strength of the Dominicans abroad and concentrate power "again" among the privileged. I dont trust some moscoso relambio NY'r who was well financed possibly from questionable sources to begin calling the shots because he thinks he can. This will open a can of worms. If you haven't learned yet, you cant concentrate power and give it to Dominicans. You guys need to think ahead think of all the the abstract possibilities because the corrupt are always thinking about abstract possibilitie
From: United States
ref: texasshoe, 27 May 2009 3:36 PM
If absentee voting is passed THAT IS representation no need for an physical person to represent those who choose to live outside of the DR. How many of those individuals have businesses both in the US (or other country) and the DR?
======
exactly my point. Dominicans want to exert influence in DR well they should stop spending their money on material objects i,e expensive jeepetas, cars and huge mansions in the middle of the campos. They should invest that money in social and political activism. This in turn will produce a bigger bang, this involves hard work, long term dedication for a long term reward. But then again Dominicans prefer quick and easy returns.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
crystal clear Ladrone you got it right. La Republica de Washington Heights and President Manny is a scam waiting to happen not necessarily with manny but it would not take long
Written by: bienamor, 29 May 2009 9:49 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Why is this stupid? You say to "get of the pot" but we've never severed our ties to DR even after being hear for generations. New York has more Dominicans than Santiago for God's sake. It truly is the republic's second city and as such I don't see why Dominicans out here shouldn't have say in the way things are ran on the island.
Well in a way you have severed your ties. If you in NY vote for something that is going to COST the RESIDENTS OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, which you are not. Which your not going to have to pay for as your taxes are paid to the US IRS. Why should we here care what your option is? And if your only coming down once a year, once every 2 years etc. You in reality have know idea of the situation here, just what you can glean from talking from family that might still be here, not the entire country. Thats kind of why the Puerto Ricans/Guam/US virgin Is, have representation, but not a vote, They are a protectrats, not states. They also do not vote in elections.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
they are spoiled I dont think they could hack it where the trade winds blow
From: United States, New York City
"If you in NY vote for something that is going to COST the RESIDENTS OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, which you are not. "
I have one word for you: remittances. Deja que eso pare para que ustedes vean como tendran que chupar un cable. Dominicans abroad contributed mightily to the Dominican economy and if you think otherwise you're delusional. Based on that alone the Dominican government should seek a better relationship with her sons abroad.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
ciby in your case grand son abroad ......Just keep sending the cash and continue hanging out at Starbucks hahaha
From: United States
ref:: cibaeño75, 29 May 2009 10:41 AM
"If you in NY vote for something that is going to COST the RESIDENTS OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, which you are not. "
I have one word for you: remittances. Deja que eso pare para que ustedes vean como tendran que chupar un cable. Dominicans abroad contributed mightily to the Dominican economy and if you think otherwise you're delusional. Bases on that alone the Dominican government should seek a better relationship with her sons abroad.
=========================
The the other side of this token is that perhaps they will have to "Ponerse Los Pantalones" and get on the job by becoming more socially active in the politics and future of the country. Perhaps this "remittance" has become a "convenient dependency".
From: United States
Its almost like welfare.
From: United States
Ref:: Manhattanite, 28 May 2009 9:32 AM
GC you are simply repeating ladronaso's political cynicism. .........
BTW for all the cynicism around corruption I'll note no one can effect
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point made but I dont want to add insult to injury by exporting, promoting, heck expanding that corruption to in the U.S. And lastly i am scenic Manny because my mother country has taught me to be a cynic and has given me enough pudding to proof. Anyone who doesnt approach Dominican politics with cynicism is really living fairytale or is colluding with corrupt forces.
From: United States, New York City
"point made but I dont want to add insult to injury by exporting, promoting, heck expanding that corruption to in the U.S. "
You're so certain that such will be the case. Isn't it also possible that North American attitudes toward politics might permeate the thinking of whomever may arise if this were to become a reality?
From: United States
You're so certain that such will be the case. Isn't it also possible that North American attitudes toward politics might permeate the thinking of whomever may arise if this were to become a reality?
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I dont have faith especially when you consider the individuals likely to hold these position? More than likely (as previously said) some well-off/financed Dominican who will either be purchased by the highest bidder/special interest or will have his own corrupt scheme and agenda. Your average working Educated Pedrito will not be able to finance such a campaign and if he does he will have to dodge the barrage of special interest.
If we Dominicans were of a different caliber or substance I would be the first to say "hell yes". But I know how easy it is to influence Dominicans especially if it involves power and money.
Written by: hereIam, 30 May 2009 12:17 AM
From: Dominican Republic
come home and discuss the problems. educated the people, show us "imperialistic Americanos" what we shouold do
Written by: hereIam, 30 May 2009 12:28 AM
From: Dominican Republic
I'm sorry I have lived in this society for nine years I am " lucky to be a light skined hispanic that demands to be heard," but my family "wife and kin" are dark dominicans who will not and cannot be heard. I know tthat this sounds strange, but those of you that are in the same boat understand
Written by: hereIam, 30 May 2009 12:29 AM
From: Dominican Republic
sorry just venting
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As for a clarification of the agreement reached between Vargas and Fernandez, here it is:
They have agreed that whatever party is in power can do whatever they want. They can start phony projects, inflate their salaries, waste money however they wish, and most importantly they can (and will) stuff the pockets of their parties supporters with absolutely no concern for the will or well being of the Pueblo.
Got it?
Remaining true to a heritage back then was a mountain of a hurdle. Today despite being in NYC I'm surrounded by Dominicans, have racks of DR books, visit Dominican sites every day. A few hours and a few hundred bucks gets me there in person. I could go on with differences. The model of early 20th C. diasporas has lessons but should not restrict us. In the 21st C. Dominicans should take a good look at who the constituencies of government can be, and whether it benefits DR to embrace their diaspora and leverage it for growth.
The modern phenomenon of financial and physical mobility alongside intense informational connectivity makes this an issue worth serious consideration to any nation with large expatriate populations. Maybe absentee voting is enough, but a seat in a legislative house offers more to expatriates and that may benefit DR.
Well I've said my parts for your consideration. I'd like to hear ONE reason why this is so 'ridiculous' and how it would hurt Dominicans instead of just stating it is ridiculous. Once upon a time King George and his cousins throughout Europe thought colonial councils and self rule were ridiculous.
Italy does have parliamentarians elected abroad.
I agree with Manny. The Dominican community can do worse than him. As a dual citizen, Manny you have my vote:)
In the end what will it really accomplish? Nothing just another person on the payroll at the expense of the people and expanding the corrupt empire and status quo. Are we so stupid and naive to think that this representation will be exercised with honesty and integrity and speak in the interest of the people? Yea. I can only imagine the clever quidproquo agreements that will rise from such an appointment. People wake up.
Why is this stupid? You say to "get of the pot" but we've never severed our ties to DR even after being hear for generations. New York has more Dominicans than Santiago for God's sake. It truly is the republic's second city and as such I don't see why Dominicans out here shouldn't have say in the way things are ran on the island.
read my the last complete sentence of the last paragraph.
And as for Manhattanite ,,well all those countries that you mention may have visited the idea generations ago but none implemented it ..but ladronaso is probably correct when he says ..that knowing the DR they will probably consider this idiotic proposal
Some do. The example of the italians has already been cited.
How come everyone knows its you?
I don't understand your first sentence. As for the rest of what you wrote: Paisa, si acaso quieres considerarme de esa forma, no importa adonde en el mundo yo naci, no importa en que idioma me dieron instruccion cuando aun era niño, yo soy y siempre sere Dominicano. Poco me importa si personas como usted me lo considera o no. La comunidad Dominicana en la ciudad de Nueva York tienen bastante intereses en su pais de origen y por lo tanto si es posible nosotros debemos tener algo de representacion en nuestro pais de origen.
Cib already pointed out multiple nations do this. Consideration of doing it is going on as we speak in many nations. It is not something that was thought about generations ago before connectivity, under the disconnected circumstances I described above.
Finally although you guys havent said much beyond 'it's stupid' thanks for replying on topic and not attacking my character like GC. I post my opinions in good faith and believe you do as well!
I can visualize some prominent Dominican bedeguero in New York having a seat and needing to expand his businesses in DR, what will it cost him? Well that depends how well he leverages his political clout? Or what his fellow crony business associates will exchange or what trade offs can he make. Yea, tell me it wont happen! And i say Keep believing in Dominican fairy tales.
Indeed. And ours has something like 20% of it's population living abroad. All of you need to take that into consideration when comparing us to other nations.
LOLOL..you're a sick man. I wouldn't covet any seat that might be created here. I'm only speaking for myself, though. I don't know if my fellow New Yorker has any political aspirations:)
You're not Dominican, you don't reside in New York, so how on earth does this thread have anything to do with you other than to provide another opportunity to drop by with your childish "look at me" attitude.
ladronaso you are right I have no way of assuring the expatriate legislator wouldn't be another sleazeball. However with your attitude I still don't get why bother with ANY hopes. I don't doubt corruption is going on, but corruption is NOT a total progress killer. As I said above, we have to accept that part of a politician's job is to compromise many things, ethics included sometimes. Nations can get ahead despite greedy leaders...corporations get ahead BECAUSE of greedy leaders :P So I'm still looking for an argument against expatriate representation, as your argument though completely valid, is a general argument against all politics.
I've outlined the positives, chiefly ensuring an engaged and loyal diaspora. Where are the negatives? What is the damage that one representative in the lower chamber would wreck, and how does that damage weigh against the potential good?
http://civilrightsblog.org/Dominican%20Republic.html
A voice, that would be the difference.
What would be the charge of such a representative? No not the color of the embassy. Let me ask you to name the smallest constituency in DR and tell me the charge of their rep...the color of a barn? It doesn't work that way. In theory reps are there not to decide specific local matters like the color of a building because they are judged by their peers as equipped to decide on larger matters. Amongst the 1mm+ expatriates I think we can elect one as a competent person to decide and compromise on issues affecting us all, in DR or abroad. In fact being tied to no geography = less pork from this rep.
I hope any still following the thread can see that while an upside to CONSIDERING this idea has been capably presented the downside has yet to appear. Also note the most vocal opposition is not coming from either Dominicans or Dominican expatriates. Hmmm. Not such a ridiculous idea now....
The gypsies have no homeland. Dominicans do.
BTW for all the cynicism around corruption I'll note no one can effectively challenge my assertion above that corruption is not a total progress killer. According to the endless whining corruption has been rampant throughout the reigns of the current DR President...but by the same token observable material progress has been undeniable in the same period. You would have to be blind as Balaguer to not see this.
GC it may be better or worse than Hippo, I'm not the one to speak on that count. My point is the same is said of every last leader of DR, yet as true as it may be it is also true the march of material progress is visible despite corruption. Now since you are willing to assign degrees of "gentler less rapacious its my turn venal corruption" to a sitting President this again tells me that the corruption argument is not an argument specific to the question of expatriate representation. Given the allegedly stiffer fraud, laundering and racketeering laws in US and Europe one would expect that a legislator for the exterior would be the most venal of all.
Damn, you stress me hard. I don't go that way so whatever fanatasies you're entertaining concerning my person I suggest you put an end to them. Damn, I should've never used my real picture as an avatar!!
Well, I have no reasons to oppose this. After all, one have to consider the fact that NYC have more dominicans than Santiago itself, which is supposed to be the second most important city in the Republic, and besides, the influence of the expats on the economy is greater than the one exerted by many provinces here in the homeland (i.e. the traditionally depressed and abandoned South), so it's fair for them to have a voice and participation on our decision making.
TS good questions but still not one solid negative to expatriate representation among them. Why do those territories have a rep in COngress?
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Manny they have a rep for the simple reason they are a territory. The US is obliged to permit participation in order to strengthen the ties and politics and protect its interest within its territory. Since when is NY a territory of DR. The major problem with this is, it will create conflicts. It will splinter the strength of the Dominicans abroad and concentrate power "again" among the privileged. I dont trust some moscoso relambio NY'r who was well financed possibly from questionable sources to begin calling the shots because he thinks he can. This will open a can of worms. If you haven't learned yet, you cant concentrate power and give it to Dominicans. You guys need to think ahead think of all the the abstract possibilities because the corrupt are always thinking about abstract possibilitie
If absentee voting is passed THAT IS representation no need for an physical person to represent those who choose to live outside of the DR. How many of those individuals have businesses both in the US (or other country) and the DR?
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exactly my point. Dominicans want to exert influence in DR well they should stop spending their money on material objects i,e expensive jeepetas, cars and huge mansions in the middle of the campos. They should invest that money in social and political activism. This in turn will produce a bigger bang, this involves hard work, long term dedication for a long term reward. But then again Dominicans prefer quick and easy returns.
Well in a way you have severed your ties. If you in NY vote for something that is going to COST the RESIDENTS OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, which you are not. Which your not going to have to pay for as your taxes are paid to the US IRS. Why should we here care what your option is? And if your only coming down once a year, once every 2 years etc. You in reality have know idea of the situation here, just what you can glean from talking from family that might still be here, not the entire country. Thats kind of why the Puerto Ricans/Guam/US virgin Is, have representation, but not a vote, They are a protectrats, not states. They also do not vote in elections.
I have one word for you: remittances. Deja que eso pare para que ustedes vean como tendran que chupar un cable. Dominicans abroad contributed mightily to the Dominican economy and if you think otherwise you're delusional. Based on that alone the Dominican government should seek a better relationship with her sons abroad.
"If you in NY vote for something that is going to COST the RESIDENTS OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, which you are not. "
I have one word for you: remittances. Deja que eso pare para que ustedes vean como tendran que chupar un cable. Dominicans abroad contributed mightily to the Dominican economy and if you think otherwise you're delusional. Bases on that alone the Dominican government should seek a better relationship with her sons abroad.
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The the other side of this token is that perhaps they will have to "Ponerse Los Pantalones" and get on the job by becoming more socially active in the politics and future of the country. Perhaps this "remittance" has become a "convenient dependency".
GC you are simply repeating ladronaso's political cynicism. .........
BTW for all the cynicism around corruption I'll note no one can effect
================
point made but I dont want to add insult to injury by exporting, promoting, heck expanding that corruption to in the U.S. And lastly i am scenic Manny because my mother country has taught me to be a cynic and has given me enough pudding to proof. Anyone who doesnt approach Dominican politics with cynicism is really living fairytale or is colluding with corrupt forces.
You're so certain that such will be the case. Isn't it also possible that North American attitudes toward politics might permeate the thinking of whomever may arise if this were to become a reality?
============================
I dont have faith especially when you consider the individuals likely to hold these position? More than likely (as previously said) some well-off/financed Dominican who will either be purchased by the highest bidder/special interest or will have his own corrupt scheme and agenda. Your average working Educated Pedrito will not be able to finance such a campaign and if he does he will have to dodge the barrage of special interest.
If we Dominicans were of a different caliber or substance I would be the first to say "hell yes". But I know how easy it is to influence Dominicans especially if it involves power and money.