Let them in. Make up for all our Dominicans sneaking out.

I say give them a minimum 8-year sentence. That'll teach them and the others.

I say for punishment to be put 8 years in La Victoria for human rights abuse.

The full story was edited and continues has follows:
" managed to slip through several military checkpoints on the Dominican-Haitian border by hiding the illegal aliens among sacks of rice straw, that were later munched by the illegals, consequently eating their cover away". LOL.

Ese pais da pena!

Give the Human Smugglers an honorable recognition at the Palace, by hanging a medal around their necks. They are instrumental in "IMPROVING the Gene Pool on this side of the Island". God knows this country(DR) is going to need it to survive whenever there is no Fuel, Food or safe water for the masses. Only the select rich will have these necessities, in a few years, if country continues on the same progression as we see today.

The real problem is not these smugglers, it is the Border Partol that accepts bribes to look the other way and permit this crap to happen.....

"The smugglers Jose Alfonso Sanchez, Andres Cespedes Rodriguez and Yaquelin Estevez managed to slip through several military checkpoints on the Dominican-Haitian border by hiding the illegal aliens among sacks of rice straw."

Change 'slip through' to 'pay'

"Dominican officials estimate that around 1 million Haitians live in the country,"

Some say it's 2 million however government official say 1 million who should we trust telling us the facts ??

The picture, I wonder what is the relation with the story ??

Man, you guys are harsh on the Haitians! I don't condon illegal Haitians coming into the country but, my experience (my family is from Bonao. I work in Caberete) with Haitians is nothing but positive. they work construction jobs from sun up to sunset, they work at mountain farms and agriculture throughout the country for little to almost non-existant money; they keep to themselves and try to find work everywhere they go; they usually subsist on one meal a day. They remind me of my father in many ways: when he went to the USA (and stayed illegally) in 1961, he worked his ass off in meanial low-paying jobs for his whole life, often at the detriment of being fired and discriminated against simply because of his ethnic background. still, he persevered simply because, like all good dominicans, he came to work, and he took the work wherever he could find it. if he would have been caught and kicked out of the U.S. it would not have deterred him. he would have risked his life to work.

When i sat in jail last September, in caberete(13 of us in one small cell-no water, no food, no electricity, over-flowing w/ human waste) then in puerto plata(19 of us in a cell-exact same conditions) it wasn't the Haitians that were causing trouble. they were polite and well behaved. But the dominicans, in particular, the small time drug dealing youth and a few that were in there for carrying guns and robbing people in Sosua, whom were causing all the trouble. it was the same story in the cell directly across from us (Puerto Plata), the dominican "Kids" were raising hell, acting aggressively, trying to stir (incite fighting) trouble up. meanwhile, i stood there and watched 11 haitians remain seated, polite, uninstigating, despite the fact that they outnumbered the domincans 2-1 and could have easily over-whelmed them. instead, they sat there and sang songs. it was like a scene out of the movie Roots. I'm half dominican, but i have not one single negative thing to say about Haitians.

Frank, you are correct. My experiences with working Haitians, have been very positive as well. You stated,"like all good dominicans, he came to work". That is NOT the case today, thus allowing the Haitians the opportunity to work. They (Haitians) will continue to risk everything for their own survival. Get used to it DR. Someday your daughters may just marry one. They too deserve the right to earn respect, which is not allowed to happen in today's Dominican society.

I just drove from Sosua to Caberete(same drive twice a day) along the same stretch of two lane highway. Here, lining both sides of the road, walking home in the rain, are Haitians. The vast majority of them have no money for public transportation, no money for scooters, & hence, here they are, day & night, walking to & from work, 2, 5,10 miles a day, heading back up into the hills or the many shacks that line highways & rivers. i see this same parade of marching workers everyday, and the one thing that always strikes me as ironic is this: 99% of the time when you meet someone who has been robbed either at their home, or alongside the road at night, it's always the same story: a dominican (2 or 3),speaking perfect spanish, pointing a gun at your head, either standing over you in your bedroom as you sleep, or while you walk home at night. I'm not implying that domincans are bad people. We're not. We're good, friendly people. But, we're the ones commiting the vast majority of crime here.

Make examples out of these bastards

" Senor dame coraje para cambiar las cosas que pueden cambiar,serenidad para aceptar aquellas que no pueden cambiar y sabiduria para reconocer la diferencia"

No one is hard on them, people are just being realistic. Why was it o.k. for the U.S. to imprison the Haitian captain of a boat that made it to Florida but asking the Dominican government to do the same with Dominican traffickers mind you, is now suddenly "being harsh"? Everybody accepts and rejects whoever they feel like it in their country. The ones who need to get over it are the superpowers, Dominicans will no longer tolerate this problem being shoved on their backs.

"Written by: etiennc01, 27 Jun 2009 4:14 PM
From: United States
" Senor dame coraje para cambiar las cosas que pueden cambiar,serenidad para aceptar aquellas que no pueden cambiar y sabiduria para reconocer la diferencia"
"

Amen Padre

"Written by: CarlosFranco, 27 Jun 2009 3:03 PM
From: United States, Brooklyn
Make examples out of these bastards
"
Harsh and unusual punishment. The guillotine and public execution are not an option.

Juango, as always you open my eyes to things I did not know. I am proud to call you my Strong intelligent brother.

Dominicanchick, your assessment is right on the money; we must enforce our immigration law, regardless of others opinions.

now what made them think that they could get away with such an act? take the average mocano next to a haitian you will see the diffrence. good job soldiers!!!!

Good evenings ladies and gentlemen,
It is a real pleasure to hear you. I was right to think that from both sides of the borderline, there are people with heart who deserve to be called humans. My heart is breaking though when I am hearing the plight of my brothers and sisters on your land. However, in the next Presidential elections, we are ready to kick Preval and his bastards out of power and empower some very brght young men who have shown real interest in improving our ties with you,but at the same time solving once and for all the illegal immigration and invasion of your territory by oud nationals. Some of you have described them exactly how I used to see them long time ago in their mountains. Those poor lads have never asked anything to their government who never provided anything to them for centuries, and now they're paying the price for it. I hope and think that you are young bright and educated, and that you'll be the ones, who, in the future, will sit down with

and care for our two people which are sharing this island and deserve much more better than what their elites are providing to them now. Believe me, all the development that is occuring right now in your country is not for the benefit of your people, it will profit to a few among you while like in the developped world, the common people is being sucked like spider's victims.
I remember I have suggested to you to go and download the series Zeitgeist on Google video, for it will prove you black on white that your elite is slowily but surely, and like mine, selling your people interest to the super bankers of the world. Go check those videos and then, I am pretty certain that you'll start asking the real questions the same way some of my people are beginning to ask them after seeing them.
Have a wonderful evening amigos.

Lets set the example with this criminal; how about a 20 years without parole....that will be an attention getter.


oupala07: Your word at the beginning coming from a Haitian was so inspiring; but you screw it up at the end.....

oupala07,

Who exactly are "We?" that you refer to?

And who exactly are the "Bright young men who have shown interest?"

When you say this: "We are ready to kick Preval and his bastards out of power and empower some very brght young men who have shown real interest in improving our ties with you, but at the same time solving once and for all the illegal immigration and invasion of your territory by oud nationals," Could you go into more detail, please?

How exactly are you going to solve the immigration problem?

How exactly will the change be applied? to whom? and where?

You sound promising but, so are a lot of other false prophets that promise change but then provide little to no details about how they plan on doing it?. and at what cost?

I'd like to hear and see some details in your "Immigration" plan in order to see how genuine and realistic it is?

Thanks, Frank

no fite pleaze piece haytian go to la capital dominicano do to puerto principe to visit
everiting is everiting

is this not the wet dream of every hatian - to bed a dominican women.

'Written by: eltinaje01, 27 Jun 2009 9:30 PM
From: United States
is this not the wet dream of every hatian - to bed a dominican women. '

eres un puerco, porque dice eso, mi novio que es haitiano nunca urina encima de mi.

no tru es big lye paisano

Juango, every time i believe all is lost at DT, you come along with your wisdom and equanimity, and restore my faith in humanity. thanks, my sage brother.

My friend Frank,
Remember the old saying that states: "It takes two to dance the Tango". I' ve said that there are a few young fellows back home that are fed up with the statu quo in the socio economic hell we're living in haiti. They are facing tremendous geopolitical odds, but they do have the people back up. Solving the problems which are plaguing directly and indirectly our two countries must not be the task of only one government, it should be a joint venture of both. For the time now, your government is taking the appropriate measures, but if it really wanted to seriously tackle the problems, it would divert more judicial and financial resources in order to quell the abuse that are victimizing our nationals and yours.
I can't give you any details or peint to you a rosy picture of what we haitians are prepared to do in order to back you up in the fight, for we must first put our own house in order, the fight for change has just begun home

let it be won first and then you'll find out whether or not the new team will be really willing to come and sit down with you in order to implement the due changes. In the socio economic pit we haitians have found ourselves being cast, we lack everything that could help us make a difference. You on the other hand, have the money and the expertise and all the help you need and want. You must take the lead in order to show to us how to seriously manage our business back home. However, if you can't control the oligarchs that are profiting outrageously of their socio economic power in order to ignore the law of the land, and make a mockery of all the effort some honest and worthy citizens of yours are making in order to enhance the living condition in your country, you can't blame it on us.
Our plans are known, I've already talked about what to be done in order to secure the border, the rest is a question of willing and building on the foundation of what we've got.

Antonioj,

I can't give you an answer if you are not being more specific. How did I "screw it up at the end?" Go ahead! Express yourself, I am opened.

excuse me , mr oupala 07, i don't dwell on this web -site as much as you . you cannot deny that you spend a lot time here until the wee hours of the night. nevertheless,you stated what could be done to secure the border. i missed that post. could you kindly elaborate.

The Haitian exploitation in DR is a sad situation, as much as i oppose the massive illegal migration of haitian nationals across the border, the blame rest solely on the Dominican authorities.

Just ask yourself this question:

If you come home from work and find your wife/husband cheating on you, would you blame the man/woman for taking part of it or would you blame your partner for allowing it to happen?
( que dios me libre)
I think our ruling elite are the ones to blame here, not poor desparate and hungry haitians.
this people will go anywhere to get a life they cannot get on their own country just as we do when we go to PR or NY or the EU.

The laws are there to be enforce, but instead of enforcing it, the authorities are profiting.

Just look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE81CLJJd7c

How do we do that? The answer is simple. We must erect more crossing points on the border line, most of all, where there are some major twin cities like, for instance, Dajabon/Ouanaminthe, Belladères/Elias Pinas, Pedernales/Anse-à-Pitres and some others important transnational rural markets where the two governments can earn passage fees and taxes.

Then we must sit down together in order to establish a common border policy so as to tackle the drug, the illegal migrants and the contraband goods traffic. How do we that? Simple, first vote and pass some strict anti corruption laws that will swiftly and harshly punish any culprit caught violating them, whatever his rank and profile in the country. Do like the Americans, by allowing a certain amount of seasonal workers migration that you make sure they will be back to their country after their contract ends.

Thanks for the request eltinaje01,

I have more than once, before taking a break from this web site, exposed some ideas about how the Dominican Republic and Haiti could work together in order to make the border play the role it should by becoming a real cash cow for the two countries. However, in spite of the effort of your president and a few well intended citizens, the oligarchs, that keep a strangle hold on your country economic output, are not willing to give up on the political and financial hegemony they’ve been enjoying since the birth of this country.

First of all, a border is, before all, a place of commerce and transit where thousands of people and goods are changing side every single day. By regulating the flow of this traffic, it could bring, not only some tremendous amount of cash to both countries, but also well needed partnership in the development of the border regions.

Establish a tight collaboration with between the Dominican and the Haitian border patrol which will exchange information in their database and which will coordinate their patrolling tour in the border area. And in the case where the Haitian government is dragging its feet in implementing those policies, you just have to go it alone but by taking commercial sanctions against it.
I could have said more, but let’s say that little exposé resume in whole my vision of the border area. Will the oligarchs, who are controlling your industries, let go on the cheap Haitian labour by encouraging those illegal migrant passers to invade your country and to employ them at famine wages? Without any form of determination to tackle the problem of corruption that is plaguing both countries, such good intention will always reside in the real of dream.

Sorry for the bad synchronization of the posts and for some typing mistakes.

oupala07

let me wake you up there for a minute, bring you back to reality.
Your Ideas are excellent, but you need to understand that first of all.

THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT IN HAITI

second of all

THE DOMINICAN GOVERNMENT IS A CORRUPT MACHINE

Unless we the people take matters on our own hands nothing will be done and the situation will remain the same.

ARE YOU READY TO TAKE ARMS?

I disagree with everything, the border should be completely sealed. once haiti reach a level of civility and economically on par with DR, open it wide to allow freedom of movement and goods.

antonioj.

I think you should watch Zeitgeist addendum my friend, it will help you to rationalize a bit. Would you have accepted the same remarks from the Porto Ricans and the Americans? It is time my friend to let go the Hun's mentality and to be a 21st century human being. You and I are lucky to have a roof above our head, a meal three times a day, and extra money for entertainment while there are, according to the last United Nations computed datas, 1 out of 5 individuals on the planet surface living in abject poverty with less than a meal a day.
Every time I envisionned that beautiful little 5 years old Colombian girl seeking her food into a trash dumping ground, it makes me feel like blowing something up. Do you think I am not worried about the faith of your people crossing the Mona canal to their death, the same way I feel so sorry for that little girl, my friend please wisen up, it is time to be human and 21st century and not another "who cares? person.

old_school_trinitario,

This is the last thing I would have done, and it is sending my people to the butcher. First your country and mine are co owners of and island. Strategically speaking, it is undefendable, why? you don't need a powerful navy to blockade it, and that's what has spell the doom for the French forces during our independance war, because Napoleon was stupid enough to be at war against the most powerful maritime country in those times (Great Britain), the Brits just send their warships and locked the 100 000 men french army inside the island, you know what did happened next, don't you?
A guerilla war these days, whatever in Haiti or in the Dominican Republic, in spite of our difficult terrain, will not be successful: the actual weapons of war are too much sophisticated and the island is too small. We would have been quick to be overun by the yankees special forces with their night vision gorgles, their attack helicopters, and most of all their local lapdogs.

No, I prefer to use the same weapons they are displaying now, and it is the information's one. When the people are well informed, they will take the matter into their hand and if they are well led, they will peacefully change things. And believe me, if there is something the jackals that are plundering the world resournces are afraid of, it is the mass protest from the people. That is the reason why as soon as they take to the street, they are quick to either promess some lies or make some cosmetics changes.
It is us who must be vigilant and be on the watch in order to seize the moment where we feel that those clay footed giants are about to fall and to help them reach the ground as heavily as possible. Furthermore, I don't really believe in violent revolutions, because they always eat their makers. Peaceful ones like the one Indira Ghandi has accomplished in India are my models. I won't resort to arm struggle unless my people are being slaughtered willfully in front of my eyes.

"Written by: eltinaje01, 27 Jun 2009 9:30 PM
From: United States
is this not the wet dream of every hatian - to bed a dominican women"

Oyeme eltinaje01, sin verguenza no enviarme mas correo privado, que me preguntan por salir junto. Estoy enamorada de mi negrito haitiano, par el carajo maricon.

Annoucement to all smugglers of Haitians: Like Celia Cruz said: "que le den candela, que le den castigo, que lo metan en una holla y que se cocinen en su vino, que le den candela, que le den castigo que lo borden en una yola y que luego le corten el hilo"

oupala7,
i apologize. You are genuine in your intentions and sincere in your position. i like that. i asked you to explain yourself and provide details, and you have.

Antonioj,
You said this: "I disagree with everything, the border should be completely sealed. once haiti reach a level of civility and economically on par with DR, open it wide to allow freedom of movement and goods."

This is so unbelievably unrealistic that it is almost comical. do you know of one single border, other than North Korea, that is sealable? Do you not see how many human beings risk their lives daily to cross the border between the U.S and Mexico, between haiti and the US, between Cuba and the US, between North Korea and China, between Dominican Republic and the US, Between East Germany and West Germany (Before the wall came down)? No border can be sealed. Besides being totally unrealistic, it's inhumane. my father, from Bonao, who spent 35 years in the USA working, could not be deterred from work.

My dad went to the USA in 1961 to work. like millions of domincans spread throughout the US & Europe, they're there to work. Spain has thousands of Dominicans, but dominicans are spread out like branches in a tree; i meet them in Norway where i work. i meet them in Sweden, Belgium.etc. Like Spain, they're in Norway to work, and work hard. like miliions of domincans, they send money (millions of dollars a year) back home to their families; their families depend on that money. likewise, in Haiti, millions of haitians are working their asses off (no different than dominicans) and their families depend on that money. Do you think for a second, this will stop?

A philisophical question: Do human beings (I.e Dominicans & Haitians) not deserve the right to feed their families? to pay for their children to get an education? help parents in times of dire need?
My father who had a 5th grade education, found it both possible and neccessary,
working mostly minumum wage, to help me get ahead.

Another question: What exactly are borders for? Borders are a relatively recent modern invention, enforced inconsistently over the years (depending on the country). This is a drop in the bucket in terms of the Homo Sapien history on this planet.

A Pultzer Prize winning book, Guns,Germs,&Steel, by Jared Diamond, goes extensively into how we, as homo-sapiens, were mostly nomads, traveling and hunting, spending enormous amounts of both time & energy in the constant search of food. think about it: until recently we've been a hunting and gathering society. Until recently, every country has had porous borders.

Today, we're so xenophobic that we've begun policing our borders to the point that it's nearly impossiible for some people to even get out of their own country (North Korea, Cuba, DR, etc.) the USA has more people of Irish decent than Ireland has citizens. there's a million Americans w/ Norwegian ancestory; same with Germans, Italians, etc. the world is a melting pot.

they estimate that 1 million live in the country??? lol who is counting? There is clearly over 2 million illegals. SD and Santiago are full of illegals

Between 1990 and 2000 the population of Dominicans increased from 348,000 to 692,000. From the years 2000 to 2004 alone the population of Dominicans once again soared, as there was an increase from 692,000 to more than one million registered Dominicans living in the United States. This statistic only accounts for people who label the Dominican Republic as their place of origin, and doesn’t include the children of Dominicans born in the United States. In considering those who are of Dominican ancestry this figure would almost certainly be much higher. And of all registered ethnic groups from Latin America, Dominicans make up the third largest group, after Mexicans and Cubans.

Frank, all i can ask you to do is to keep the high standard going. i am going to order that book ASAP. it is refreshing, and, sadly, unusual, to see someone address this subject with such level headedness

I am not one to spend time reading, but having scanned over the following posts, it is somewhat obvious that there are those of Dominican decent who reject the efforts of Haitians, no matter how well intentioned or for the good of the country.

In a day on the road ( part of my life now) I encounter Dominican communities in dispare living with Haitians in dispare. There is no confrontation...poverty is poverty, Poverty brings the world closer together, as it is nessesary that everyone assist each other...communal so to speak.

I also wonder, how this country's tourism and real estate market would fare, if not for the hard wok by thousands of Haitians I see daily doing whatever hard work it takes to make it to tomorrow. If you deny seeing the results of thier efforts...then you are simply blind or in total denial. This goes for the thousands of hard working Dominicans who suffer the same type of work.

GREAT IDEA MIKE-Cuando hay hambre entre dos, no se siente tanto el hambre. Let us share our hunger together them and let's bring in all of the Haitians to work on our farms, do our construction, to work as street vendors and peddlers, to work as security guards or watchmen, to be baby sitters and nannies, housekeepers, cleaning ladies, they will be our new beggars on all dominican street corners, Haitians will be our new gardeners, they will be our shoe shine boys, in fact since they work so hard and do such a great job let them all come in to the DR and let them take over all of our jobs. Hey what the heck they are here already. Then all we have to do is let the Haitians cut down our trees just like they did in Haiti to make charcoal and whatever wood scrap is left over they can make YOLAs for Dominicans so we can go to Pto Rico to find work and now Dominicans can do the same thing to the Boricuas. Oh I forgot the US has very strict laws, too bad we can't stay, but we work so hard

There's 1 million "Legal" dominicans in the U.S. The children of these are U.S citizens and so, are not counted. How many children (myself included) are of DR ancestory living in the U.S? How many more "Illegal" dominicans are now residing in the U.S? Is this not a good thing? Are they not making a contribution to the U,S economy? are they not sending money back home to the DR and helping their families, including children & parents (my father did this; my cousins currently do this) they left behind? Are not Haitians doing the same thing? Who and the hell wants to work in the sugar cane fields, toiling in the sun all day? Who wants to work back-breaking construction jobs, 10hrs a day in the sun (no back-hoes in the DR, hence, all ditches & building foundations are dug by hand. Any idea how hard this is?); who wants to toil in the cacao & coffee & dairy farms (milking cows by hand twice a day) for $1000 pesos($30) a week? its not as if haitians are stealing great jobs. i don't get it?

i'm a bartender in Caberete. i make about US$200 a month. that ends up being around $2 an hour. i love my job so, i do it because i enjoy it (two years now), and in particular, the people i both work for and with- all fabulous dominicans that make me proud to share the fantastic, rich heritage. i also work with one Haitian, fabulous person that sits quiet, humble, unseen in the corner when he's not busy. to say that i'm not proud to be working along side both dominicans and Haitians would be an under statement. how many people on this forum are working for $2 an hour? how many work daily along side Haitians? How many see the humanity of these people. i got to tell you, i'm not bright, nor smart, but, having worked with haitians and seen them work, it would be impossible to tell the difference between their work ethic, their humanity, their generousity, and their humbleness, next to a dominican. I sat in jail with them for two days, they couldn't have been more polite.

Very good Frank you made a very good distinction. You are so smart, I am so happy for you that you actually know and can tell the difference between what is1 million legal Dominicans in the USA (less then 1% of the total US population) compared to over 2+ million illegal and undocumented Haitians 25% of the DR population. Hey what the F' k let them all come in and take over the DR and do what ever they want.Let them all come into DR and use it as a public rest room to defecate all they want, who cares. Somebody has got to clean the toilets and cut the sugar cane and do all the hard work. I just wonder who did all that hard labor before the Haitians came in. Some one told me it was the Argentinians. Why should the Haitians make a line and apply for Dominican residency, just because 1 million hard working Dominicans legally entered the US does not mean Haitians have to follow immigration law. They live next door and can just jump the fence and take my tomatoes or ask for a cup of sugar

You know Frank I agree Haitians are such nice and Hard working people. But you know I also spent a night in Jail with Bernie Merdoff before he was let out on bond. He was such a nice polite and educated person. He had so much class, so intelligent and sofisticated and such an elegant guy. But who cares if he broke the law, he worked very hard screwing people out of millions of dollars. It does not matter what kind of law a person brakes so as long as they are hard workers and keep quiet, polite and don't make trouble then everything is ok. Mr Merdoff was also very quiet and did not make any trouble for anyone while he was incarcerated. He was so smooth and suave everybody liked him. He was such an easy going kind of a guy, he get along well with everybody. Man I just don't understand why people are after his ass. He is such a peaceful man he just made a few mistakes. We are all humans and we are entitled to make errors. To err is human, to forgive is devine.

First, the 1 million dominicans did not enter the U.S under green card visas. Not remotely close. Many came, over-stayed their visas, applied for the green card, kept working their asses off while their applications were under review, and stayed out of trouble in order to avoid deportation. it's one easiest ways into the back-door of the USA.

Secondly, in any economy and market place, the job market will only bear what the job market requires. hence, the low-paying, unskilled jobs that once were filled by dominicans are now filled by the Haitians. Likewise, the jobs that once were done by Americans are now done by immigrants. its the same story in Norway where i live part of the year, and throughout Europe. Go to Spain & look at who are filling the low-payed unskilled jobs? yep, immigrants, many of whom are Dominicans. Look at the jobs being filled through out the U.S, in particular, the agriculture markets, Americans don't want these low paying, hard-labour jobs. Mexicans save US

No Frank when you make a comparison you need to compare apples to apples. You can not in any way compare the DR with the US or countries of the European Union. You make a very bad example to justify your argument.

No developed country in the world no matter how rich would never allow 25% of their population to be compose of illegal immigrants and if it happens, they would be deported instantly. There is massive deportation taking place in the US right now. Spain is paying their immigrants to leave and if that does not work they will deport their ass. We in the DR do not do that.

Frank, i like your humanitarian spirit, but the current conditions in the DR vis a vis the Haitian influx, is, plainly put, untenable in the long run. something has to be done, and real fast. i have a real uneasy feeling in my stomach about this issue. the DR simply cannot sustain these conditions. every day, i see more and more APPARENT Haitians , everywhere. please do not see me as a xenophobe, but the dire conditions in Haiti , coupled with the unprincipled Dominican exploiters( not to mention all the gringos looking for someone to build their waterfront mansions on the cheap), constitutes a toxic amalgam, which is going to occasion disaster in the near future. despite the nonsensical bleatings of simpletons who bray about Dominicans living large, this is still a very poor third world country, barely able to sustain itself. the economy would be considered overburdened if it had only Dominicans to worry about, plus the normal, expected brigade of legal immigrants.

Thirdly, Mexicans, Dominicans, Hondurans, El Salvadorians, Haitians, etc. all contribute extensively to the U.S economy. but you wouldn't know it by listening to many conservative Americans who all cry the same battle: "Mexicans and Immigrants are stealing American jobs!!!"

Yeah, they're stealing the back-breaking jobs in the seasonal migratory agricultural section; they're stealing jobs at the Meat Packing compannies like Monfort (where i used to work 40 hours of the most back-breaking hard labour work imaginable), they're stealing bus-boy and waiter jobs in the service industry; same for the hotel industry, and printing factory business, etc. etc.

What Americans want these jobs? What Americcans could even do these jobs. At Monfort meat packing, hard working Mexicans only last a few years before Carpal Tunnel syndrome renders them useless for life.

I don't get it. The market only employs what it needs. nothing more. Haitians only take the shit jobs that no one else wants.

You can not condone chaos. The US is the greatest country because of law and order. The key to the American success is organization, rules and regulations. What we have in the DR is immigration anarchy. It is nothing but a formula for disaster and if you think allowing that many Haitians into the DR is good for the DR then you are crazy. It will destroy us as a nation and eventually you will be speaking creol. Have you not read the Dominican constitution? The founding fathers of our nation specifically prohibited the unitification or the alliance with Haiti. They clearly stated separation as a requirement for the survival of the Dominican Republic as a soveriegn nation. If we continue to allow without control the merge of both nation the DR will disappear. If that is what you want and you don't care or give a hoot about it then fine. You are just another traitor to the republic and the reason why Juan Pablo Duarte had to leave as exile because of Dominicans like you

but it has become one large refugee camp, providing residence and sustainance (however paltry) for far too many people. and the influx continues unabated, as does the disgust among Dominicans, who feel betrayed by the political directorate, whom they rightfully see as profiteers in this miserable interlude. it is little wonder that we see grotesque displays of mayhem, such as the beheading of a haitian by a menace to humanity with an axe. the Haitian government will never provide relief to its citizens, and alleviate the exodus. it is incapacitated by incompetence and amorality. which means that the DR will have to act. we hope that this action will be informed by compassion, along with resoluteness. then again, i am dreaming. the Vicinis and their enablers will always be in need of slave labor, and the responses will be the same, because big boys are making big money. the crap might just hit the fan sometime soon.

Frank you are wrong again-Latin American immigrants do not steal jobs from the Americans. However, Haitians steal jobs from poor Dominicans. Poor Dominicans are the ones who are hurt the most because of illegal immigration. Immigrants in the US do not hurt the rich white anglo-american citizen that is a fallacy. You see again you are not making a fair comparison. You are comparing the DR with a rich country. What happens in the DR is that you have poor illiegal haitians competing against poor native Dominicans for the few jobs. A Haitian will work for one peso, a meal and a place to sleep for the night. A dominican will do the same thing but for greater compensation. Please understand I am not against Haitian immigration, I am against uncontrolled illegal immigration of any kind and to any country.

Yes, you are right, except that, i cannot see where Haitians are over-whelming, for example, social services/welfare, hospitalization/medical services, the job market/unemployment benefits, the schooling/education section, simply because these are not free services like they are in E.U & Europe. In Europe, it is posssible to over-whelm such systems beecause they are paid for by the tax payers and the State. here, we have no such services. Haitians do not qualify for social security, nor unemployment, nor free education, nor any social service. So, i'm at a lost to understand what exactly they're taking away from in the dominican economy? Aren't they contributing to its growth in the Agricultaral section, the business & construction section?

I don't know. i don't want to pretend as if i do know. i just can't see the Apocolypse coming like Americans see it coming with immigrants. they said the same thing at the turn of the century: Irish need not apply. Look how wrong they were.

When did i ever say this or even imply this: "Frank you are wrong again-Latin American immigrants do not steal jobs from the Americans."

I said the exact opposite. I said the Conservative Americans make this same battle cry regarding mexican immigrants. they made this same battle cry at the turn of the century regarding Irish Americans, then Italians, then Polish. they only took the jobs that no one else wanted. The Polish are doing the same thing in Europe today. They work back-breaking work that no else wants.

Frank

Dread-Glad you came over. Please take over this discussion with Frank and try to knock some sense into him. I have to leave now and can't continue any longer though I would love to stay. But before I leave I just want Frank to understand that I do not hate Haitians and that I have very good Haitians friends which I love dearly, but my loyalty first is for the DR and about the survival of my country.

Frank-"Latin American immigrants do not steal jobs from the Americans."
What I mean by that is that though that argument is false for the US it is however true in the DR.
And you were trying to say that I am using that theory to support my argument and that is not the case, anyway I have to leave now. Will talk to you at another time. Thanks

Frank, i love your soul, but i cannot support your viewpont, even though you might be far more accurate than i am. the stark reality is that the current modality is unsustainable. you see, the reflexive analysis seeks to examine facts which are on the ground today. so, we say that there are 2 million Haitians in the DR, and use that figure to inform our arguments. sadly, that analysis is flawed, because 90% of Haitians are POTENTIAL immigrants to the DR, if only because of the ease of geography. we keep speaking about the trials and tribulations of Haitians here, but, by comparison to their bretheren they left in the homeland,, their life here might be paradise. so, what is to stop another 5 million following suit? what then? we listen to the morons on the forum who tell us that the DR is a virtual superpower, and comfort ourselves with the belief that we are living so large, what is a few million illegal immigrants here and there?

All love to you brothers. It's healthy to debate, inform, and disagree. Freedom of Speech is what makes the world go around. Nothing wrong with having different view points. it's what makes the world go around and around.

let me take a more simplistic, but probably a more emphatic journey into making my point. what do you think would eventuate if the United States Department of State issued a ruling that each and every Dominican could simply board an aeroplane, or a sea going vessel, and disembark in the USA, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, NO VISA, NO ID, AND NO PASSPORT? what do you think the Dominican population would look like by year's end? well, we have a parallel situation here, as far as entry is concerned. true it is that some get repatriated, but they just keep coming back the next day, so it is a revolving door.

Frank, as i said before, i love your soul. stay strong, my brother.

Frank I will get back to you and explain exactly how Haitians hurt and are a burden on Dominican society. You live in an oasis in a resort area and it is hard for you to really see the true and actual picture of how Haitians have overrun and have penetrated every aspect of Dominicana to the point that I just don't believe and recognize my country anymore. Maybe Dread could share some light with you because I just cant' take the time right now. But everyday Haitian/Dominican violence is on the rise and getting worse by the minute. There are vigilante groups forming around the coutry to protect themselves against Haitians, I don't know how long you have been dealing with them but with the exception of a few friends, Haitians can turn on you at any point in time and when you least expect it. You have to be careful, don't let yourself be vulnerable or turn your back, I have had some very bad experiences with a certain class of Haitians. Remember they are poor and have nothing to lose.

Millions of Mexicans (Dominicans, Haitains, Cubans) pour into the U.S every year. However, the job market can only absorb a certain percentage of them. the rest, after looking for work unsuccessfuly, either go back home, wait the job market out, take whats offered (even if its not their field or interest). some get departed, others leave voluntarily.

The economy & market will absorb as much as it can, the rest go home or wait for as long as is econmically feasable. So, regardless how many Mexicans cross the border, many will return home after finding no work.

The economic forces regulate themselves. Government can set the rules but, ultimately, the free market economy sets its own rules, sets its own pay/salary rate, its own employment, and neither the government nor their laws have much effect at the end of the day. The only time these values--such as salary and hiring--are severely effected, is when you introduce such variables such as Unions.

You'll have to excuse me, but that analysis of yours of "the economic forces regulate themselves" is deeply flawed, frank, specially considering the fact that the lack of governmental regulation would be the main factor behind the current financial disasters plaguing the US and the rest of the world. If something, experience have shown that markets DO need regulating, cuz' the people running them have not the least social consideration on their minds (unless you consider the satisfaction of their selfish interests a social consideration, that is), so it's a given that their ambition have to be restrained in order for it not to derail the well-being of the society. Secondly, this lack of governmental regulation is what have put the DR on its present status quo, a status quo that (and I regret to say this to the bottom of my soul) can only be compared with slavery, and the countries that have this dreadful institution as their base are destined to be powder kegs for all their existence.

(cont...) so you'll excuse me if I don't share your optimistic, market-friendly point of view. If the DR wants to avoid a social explosion like the one that rocked its neighbouring country on 1791 (the blast radius of which have plagued all the governments over there ever since) it'll have to regulate the entrance of haitian workers, with a seasonal program like the one that was in place during the dictatorship, the difference being that the one to be implemented would fully respect the human rights of these people, heavily punish the consortiums trafficking and exploiting these workers and also, it'll have to yell more loudly for the intl. community to drop its hypocrisy and help this country on the titanic task of uplifting living conditions on the western part of the island. One thing is certain, though, the current slavocrat status quo is not sustainable over time, cuz' the Republic's existence (along with the one of the entire island, it seems) is at stake.

(cont...) a jamaican economist (I don't remember his name right now) said it clearly: "If the uplifting of the living conditions of the haitian masses is not assumed by the intl. community on the short run, a social explosion will happen that will not only take down Haiti with it, but the socioeconomic conditions of the entire Caribbean region as a whole". These are my two cents.

Mr Lautaro, as usual, you make incisive points which illuminate the current nature of the problem. in the Trujillo days, the workers were here for agricultural reasons, which are seasonal. so, they were here for a few months at a time, then went home. with the new phenomenon of all year round work, such as the construction trade, it is very hard to control the ingress of illegals.we are looking at a potential powderkeg, and i do not like what i sense. something has to be done, and real fast. as prices escalate, and life becomes more difficult for the average Dominican, he is going to take the line of least resistance and direct his wrath towards the Haitians. the Haitians, in turn, being destitute and hopeless, have precious little to lose, and a cultural history of rebelliousness. it is not hard to imagine impromptu armed struggle. then, the DR army will move in, and Haitians will be killed. think of the response from the NGOs and the international community.

I've always been of the mind that a dose of idealism is not a bad thing for the soul, dread. Now, one have to be careful not to let this idealism to cloud one's judgement or views about how reality works, and human realities are nothing if not unpredictable, so one have to be prepared for every single scenario, so as not to be caught unawares.

yes, Mr Lautaro. there are many of us who are people of good conscience, people who feel the pain of the Haitians, and mean them no ill. we would all like to live in a utopian world, where these unfortunate souls find solace and comfort anywhere they go. but then, every action has a reaction, and, in this case, providing solace for haitians comes with a price, namely, the displacement of dominicans. this is not a country of infinite wealth, and simply put, does not have enough biosphere for all who wish to be here. the answer is not as simplistic as to demand of the haitians that they go home and better their country, making it a comfortable place in which to live. but neither is the answer that the DR is financially and structurally better off, and, as a consequence, should offer whatever aid is needed in the haitian quarter. the DR cannot do for its own, so how is it to divert resources to outsiders? how can it offer living room for a potential 5 or so more million people?

On the contrary, Government Regulation is exactly what caused the current crisis: Prior to the rapid escalation of home prices, federal bank regulators began using the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) to press for racial equality. The issue was the statistical difference in approval rates, not a claim that most blacks could not get mortgage loans. New regulations required that the banks not just look for qualified buyers, but make a requisite number of loans to low and moderate income buyers (quotas). Then, when legislation was proposed in 1999 to permit banks to diversify into selling investment securities, Congress urged "banks given unsatisfactory ratings under the CRA be prohibited from enjoying the new diversification privileges." The Congress happily obliged. Another factor was HUD's beginning legal action in 1993 against mortgage bankers that declined a higher percentage of minority applicants.

Continue...HUD also set a 42% target for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae (FM & FM) to buy mortgages for people whose income were less than an area's median. Banks, sensing that FM & FM were implicitly guaranteed, where only too happy to not only issue these mortgages, but to buy FM & FM debt as well. (In 2003, about 3,000 banks held FM & FM debt for 100% of their capital requirements.) The "icing" was FM & FM's creative accounting that misclassified $11 trillion of sub-prime assets. Then in 2002, Bush II urged Congress to pass the American Dream Down Payment Act, subsidizing down payments of prospective buyers with incomes below a certain level (a recipe for disaster).

Bottom Line: The law of unintended consequences strikes again - helping minorities was a good intention, but backfired. The Government "Forced" banks to loan to people with "No" credit to little credit.

Continue...Government regulations working in the best interest of the People & Economy??? Absolutely not; Can you bring up one single good example where this has worked in history? Communism tried it and it failed spectaculary, The U.S & E.U try it in certain areas (I.E SUBSIDIZING FARMERS), and this has failed spectaculary. On the contrary, Government regulations is what got us in to this mess--forcing banks to loan money to "Unqualified" buyers with "No money down!"

The domincan labor market will only absorb only what is neccessary and not one person more. I.E. if my construction site needs 20 workers, and 40, or 200, show up for the positions, i won't hire more than what i require or need. Period. i need to keep my operational costs down, and how is forcing me to hire more than i need ever going to work in a free market economy? I understand the need to document workers (that is neccessary), but thinking that Haitian workers are somehow stealing "Good" jobs is unrealisitic.

What about the rest, frank? What about the elderly, the homeless women and children begging on the streets? What is our economy doing for them? Do you realistically think that an unrestrained and out-of-hand market will look out for them? What to do with them? Let them eat cables? Excuse me, but I stand firm on my opinion that unrestrained markets ARE NOT the solution. They might be for the people like you living and working in all-inclusives in Cabarete, but they are not the solution for the people living below the bridges or in Gualey or Guachupita. As we would say over here: "A otro perro con ese hueso". Do you realistically think that the capitalism of the scandinavian countries can be compared with the dog-eat-dog one seem on the ole US?

If you really want to see the most dramatic change to poverty available, have the E.U and The U.S Government take away agriculture and "farm subsidies." That will have the single biggest infleunce & effect on poverty in Dominican Republic, Haiti, and every South American and African country in the world. How can Dominican farmers and workers compete or get a "fair" price for food when US & E.U governments are "Subsizing" their farmers with billions of dollars a year? and then, in some cases, "Dumping" food (i.e Corn) onto the market, effectively demolishing its prices.

The capitalism/socialism markets in Scandinavia is not the solution either. they heavily subsidize their agriculture and farmers. they tax the hell out of everything in order to provide some well intentioned, worthy, admirable, neccesities--i.e medicine and education, but at the cost of me paying nearly 40% tax on my income. i pay an incredible amount of taxes on a bartender's wage. I wish there was something similar in this country for the poor. We need it. but remember, Norway's economy is "proped up" by it's petroleum industry. Norway is the third largest exporter of oil in the world, behind 1.) Saudi Arabia, 2.) Russia. So, this is a temporary fix to the degree that it lasts only as long as the oil flows.

Also, Norway, w/only 4.5 million people, may not be the best example to compare with. But i'm getting off the point here... If you want to help this country, truly help it, you get the U.S & E.U to drop their agriculture & Farm Subsidies. that hurts dominicans beyond belief.

International financial crisis? The short answer? Government attempts to "create affordable housing" for lower income Americans. Who could oppose that goal? Unfortunately, the goal bore no relation to the actual consequences of the policies. A series of decisions over a number of years led to a degrading of eligibility standards on mortgages. This not only created a housing bubble. It filled the financial system with extremely risky, and unsustainable, financing schemes that would never have existed if the federal government had not attempted to manipulate the market in the first place.

The elimination of farming subsidies might be part of the solution, but it's not the only panacea to solve problems, because, do you think that the market will assign the lands needed to prop up agrarian production with some semblance of equality? Do you think that it will not incentivate the concentration of land in a few hands, as it has been the case on the DR? And there's also the equal access to credit, an access which in unrestrained markets like this is only granted to large landholders, sending all the rest to hell.