SANTO DOMINGO.- The deputy Pelegrín Castillo affirmed that Dominican Republic’s recognition of Kosovo was president Leonel Fernandez’s way of pleasing the United States and some European countries.
He said the Dominican government didn’t have to support the emerging State because it was driven to force a breakup of Serbia, which an important part of the world opposed. "But that precedent to bring about a region’s independence by modifying borders, from the creation or existence of a national minority which becomes a majority in a region, is unsettling."
In that regard, the pro-government FNP party lawmaker warned that if the governments continue ignoring the border region, especially the South, we’ll have a similar situation in the next 20 or 30 years, because in his view there’ll be areas where Haitians will be a majority. “And this is a precedent which all nations with similar risk situations must learn from."
He said he doesn’t see how the country benefits by recognizing Kosovo, aside from please the Americans and some European nations.
Fernandez had warned about balkanization
In different arenas, president Leonel Fernandez had warned of a balkanization in reference to the massive Haitian immigration to Dominican territory.
In a seminar on foreign policy guidelines in August, 2007, Fernandez warned of the danger of demands by a foreign nuclei which is based in a certain portion of a territory, which with time ends up stoking a balkanization process and a ensuing territorial fragmentation, citing the Kosovars and the Albanians.
SOURCE: diariolibre.com
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
lets look at this a different way ,,why would the DR not recognise Kosovo ?? it would only do it to be truculent or to please Russia or Venezuela because the overwhelming number of countries have supported this new state many months ago .And what madness to suggest that parts of this country will become part of Haiti..there is no legitimate comparison there ... Is this the standard of politician here ?'
Written by: Grosero, 15 Jul 2009 8:36 AM
From: United States
Pucker Up....sic
Written by: Lautaro, 15 Jul 2009 8:48 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Ricardolito said: ".And what madness to suggest that parts of this country will become part of Haiti..there is no legitimate comparison there ... Is this the standard of politician here ?"
Maybe you need to read the history of this country more often, Ricardolito, cuz' that scenario have already happened on this country, namely, when this country lost the Central Plateau of the island, with its towns of San Miguel de la Atalaya, Hincha (Pedro Santana's birthplace), Las Caobas, San Rafael and Tomasica, 3,165 kms2 in total, on the border negotiations with the haitian gov. of 1929-1936. The consequence of this loss would be the massacre of 1937, cuz' Trujillo, already angered and stung by the loss of this once fertile part of our island (now a wasteland), exploded when the haitian peasants residing on the border towns that were left to our country refused to heed his ultimatum to leave the place or else.
From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
and he continues off the deep end and into weirdness
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
ah yes ,,i was waiting for that reaction !!
Written by: Lautaro, 15 Jul 2009 9:49 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
While these cautions might be funny to you, the dangerous and foolish overconfidence that our country has showed in all its dealings with the haitian state it's not a thing to be taken lightly or laugh about in the least, specially when we're talking about a state that doesn't have nothing else to lose, and everything to gain by profitting from our every mistake. Yesterday, these mistakes costed us 3,165 kms2 of the best lands on the island, tomorrow it could be much more. Overconfidence is paid dearly on the dangerous arena of international affairs, an arena in which our country's authorities have showed themselves to be ignorant amateurs to our utter dismay and embarrassment.
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 11:49 AM
From: United States
When trying to look at the DR/haitian crisis and seeing if 1 side has a right to be angered, I don't find it to be easy as just saying deport them. Take for example, here in America most americans hate mexicans. If you are not here in the US just picture the hate most dominicans have for hatians. However, being hispanic and having somewhat of an understanding of why mexicans come to the US illegally (just like a great amount of dominicans) it becomes almost impossible to understand the whole situation because of the confusion. You see, in NYC even dominicans are looked at as common derogatory immigrants and many think that we should all just go back to our country. Why??? because we come to this country and sometimes do good and sometimes do bad, but for the most part we are not natives. We are not the norm. Same as the mexicans who have no papers and can't speak english. Yet, they are human beings. They deserve the same rights we do. Maybe not to encroach on our land
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 11:55 AM
From: United States
continuation...
so maybe the mexicans are wrong for coming to america illegally and so it is the same for dominicans to come here illegally. But do we, dominicans, feel just as angered at the fact that our people are doing the same exact thing that the hatians are doing in our motherland? It is not because they love DR that they are coming over. Same as dominicans coming to america. Give a dominican a choice between America and DR (with the same luxuries) and most will chose DR. But coming to america is a necessity because it's either live in DR on 2 grains of rice or being able to send your kids to college. In haiti, there are no opportunities. So my argument is not that 1 side is right or wrong but instead that this argument needs to be settled intelligently. Until Haiti fixes it's country (and DR has to help), haitian immigration will always be a problem. Just keep in mind that although you might not be illegal, some of your same people are and are just as hated.
From: United States
dominica you have it all wrong, your perception of the Dominican/Haitian conflict is precisely what pro-haitian activist use as argument in defense of illegal Haitians in the DR. Racial and nacionalist hatred against Haitians by Dominican is a fallacy, it does not exist at least not at the level they want us to believe, but regardless, it is not the actual and real issue. However, it is precisely the argument used as a mechanism to make Dominicans defensive to a sensitive subject. And please do not make that lousy comparison about illegal immigration in the US to the DR it is not the same. Please compare apples to apples. The DR does not have a statute of liberty at the DR/Haitian border which states: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost, the outcasts and downtrodden of .." Haiti. To the contrary, DR constitution specifically prohibits the unification of Haiti
From: United States
The US is a wealthy country, if not the richest, one of the most properous of the world, that can easily absorb a mass migration of people over a short period of time with minimal effects. In the 1980's,during the Mariel boat lift, So Fla within a matter of months took in over 100,000 Cuban refugees. The US has a very well organized immigration program with controls, order, quotas and enforcement. The DR is poor, has immigration chaos, corruption, little to no enforcement with a very small, powerful, elite and wealthy interest groups which promote and economically benefit from illegal Haitian immigration. The vast majority of poor and working class Dominicans severely suffer the consequences and are negatively affected by the enourmous influx of destitute undocumented Haitians which enter DR territory. So the issue is not racial hatred against Haitians, it is about scarcity of economic resources. Haitian poverty added to DR poverty exacerbate our already dire economic conditions
Written by: Nesst0r, 15 Jul 2009 2:33 PM
From: United States
the Haitian annexed lands that were once Dominican lands is now a wasteland? Didn't know that. Perhaps it was simply an expression of frustration not really thought upon. Less fertile maybe, that's a given, probably much less fertile to be realistic, but wasteland is quite a stretch, I don't believe a wasteland exists anywhere on the island (staying true to the true definiton of the term). But Balkanization is a concern the Dominican people should be aware of. A Kosovo-like situation can emerge in the Dominican Republic many years from now should the current circumstances remain without due action.
Written by: Lautaro, 15 Jul 2009 2:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Ok, I admit that I exaggerated a little bit on my use of the expression, but a glance at the satellite images of the island on Google is enough for anyone to get aware of the extent of the devastation that have plagued the haitian environment on the last century. What do you think then is the reason behind our minister of environment's worries about halting the logwood contraband on the border?
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 3:04 PM
From: United States
let's understand that illegal immigration is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, whether in the US, DR, or in MARS. it doesn't matter that a country is richer or poorer. The fact that another country's citizens are encroaching on the territory of another through illegal means is and always will be the same whether you define it your way or the correct and legal way. There is a border between DR and Haiti, correct? Haitians are entering illegally, correct? and they are becoming a burden, correct? it doesn't matter if they are black, poor, or better yet like you said "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost, the outcasts and downtrodden of..." so your case is that haitians are a lesser species than what the US is dealing with? I am not sure if I understand you. But that is the same argument republicans have saying mexicans are gangbangers who murder and rape americans.
Written by: Nesst0r, 15 Jul 2009 3:07 PM
From: United States
Yes the devastation that has taken place in Haiti is quite extensive and the fact that alternative energy sources to charcoal have not made a major dent in the fabric of Haiti's local population is a factor in the cutting-trees-to-survive reality that many of them face. This bleak reality can and does cross over onto the Dominican side, leading to valid worries by Dominican officials and the only solution to the problem (at least in the sense of protecting the Dominican environment) is by strict vigilance and enforcement. From what I've read Haiti seems to be taking measures in reforesting their side of the island; maybe not to the extent of what is needed, but it seems to me that fervent talks between officials of both sides should make a noticeable impact, starting with halting the logwood contraband market that exists in the border region.
Written by: Lautaro, 15 Jul 2009 3:08 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
dominica asked: so your case is that haitians are a lesser species than what the US is dealing with?
Not a lesser species, but they're certainly worse positioned in health, educational and nutrional parameters than the mexicans will ever be, cuz' despite all its flaws as a country, Mexico at least is an industrialized country and regional powerhouse while Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. No es lo mismo ni es igual.
Written by: Nesst0r, 15 Jul 2009 3:08 PM
From: United States
I must say though, that some form of blame must be put on the Dominican officials as well for it is not the first time that I have heard of their "claims" to strictly and permanently enforce the border regions for illegal activity such as the timber market. The only caudillo/strongman that both countries bow down to is the unquestioned power of the almighty dollar. Conflicts between and amongst both peoples will never be solved as long as greed and wealth is factored into the equation.
From: United States
Dominica the wording in your first comments was ambiguous, most of it kind of favored and justified illegal Haitians to the DR-It sort of gave a positive note or green light for Haitians to invade. And like most people who defend undocumented Haitians, they always pull the race card as defense, exactly what you did. Your said: "so your case is that haitians are a lesser species than what the US is dealing with? "some of your same people are and are just as hated. " "If you are not here in the US just picture the hate most dominicans have for hatians" "But do we, dominicans, feel just as angered at the fact that our people are doing the same exact thing that the haitians are doing in our motherland." "Same as the mexicans who have no papers and can't speak english. Yet, they are human beings. They deserve the same rights we do." In almost all of your statements, in a subtle manner, you bring up the issue of race and nationality. Understand, that is has little to do with it. Capiche?
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 3:22 PM
From: United States
the fact that DR is absorbing more problems than the US has nothing to do with the argument on how to correct it or on the morality of the issue. All that shows is that DR's economy &it's other surrounding areas are not as well off as those of the US. The arguments of haitians being more of a burden or being a lesser class has no basis whatsoever on how to deal with the problem. The fact is you have people entering the country illegally by the 1000's regardless if they are haitians or penguins. It doesn't matter who or what it is that is entering DR. I believe that if you suddenly had an influx of white anglo saxon protests come in by the tons that you would also feel the same regardless of how much money they had with them. Of course, there r other details that come along with it like crime & the degradation of the conditions but the fact is fact. To deal with the immigration problem is the same. haitians aren't coming to DR to basque in the sun or beaches. they come for $$$$
From: United States
Ok dominica, I read your last comment, so now you need to make up your mind, Which is it? On one end you say it is a an issue of hate and race but now you say it is economic. What is or which one is your point? Or are you just confused? If you are going to make a point, a firm and a well defined stance is necessary in order for your idea to be effective. otherwise, I am sorry, but you are going to sound wishy- washy.
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 3:29 PM
From: United States
lautaro,
you mistakened my position. Fact is that it doesn't matter if it were roaches that were crossing over. It has nothing to do with the class of people. The fact is that there is an influx of people that the dominican nation does not want on its side of the border. It doesn't matter if they had letrinas on their heads. the immigration problem here in the US, just because its mexicans, is no different. The same problems arise out of this. Regardless of if DR has it worst. The same problems arise. Just on a different scale. DR has a few different and unique issues due to it's geography but overall the political ramifications of this is the same here or on MARS. fact is there is only so much land and only so much infrastructure. FIX HAITI AND I WILL GUARANTEE THERE IS NO MORE PROBLEM. you can't fix this problem by hating haitians or killing them or deporting them. That isn't going to fix jack. They will come back by thousands once more. FIX their economy & ur done.
Written by: Lautaro, 15 Jul 2009 3:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
dominica said: To deal with the immigration problem is the same. haitians aren't coming to DR to basque in the sun or beaches. they come for $$$$.
But the magnitude of the danger posed by civilian unrest will never be the same, because, contrary to the US case, the DR is among the most unequal societies on the distribution of income on the entire continent, only behind Brazil, Bolivia, Nicaragua and Haiti itself. When you take into account that the DR have to deal with thousands of additional poor already having more than half of its population below the poverty line, social and political stability of the country have the word disaster written all over them on the foreseeable future. How can you expect us to be capable of solving Haiti's problems when we have been incapable to solve our very own problems thus far?
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 3:35 PM
From: United States
To argue that we have it worst because of the Haitians just being more of a problem is an argument any logic professor would have a great time with. Arguing for the disgust of haitians is so irrelevant that it just would never even make it off ground. The fact is they are the way they are, as you describe lautaro, because they have no other way of being. They have been exploited and have been left alone to just die. That country has a huge history of intervention but only intervention and once it is time to do real work in that country everyone just disperses. I would hate to go to that country and spend a day there. However, that country needs to be fixed not by haiti but by all well positioned countries in the western hemisphere. The US needs to do alot more to help haiti and so does DR. Yes we have our own issues and little money but keep this up and you'll see how bad it gets. Either spend a little now or spend a lot later.
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 3:43 PM
From: United States
ok lautaro, I see your point. Basically you're arguing something that has nothing to do with the point of how to fix immigration. You are talking strictly on its consequences. If I had 10 dollars and my sister came along and I had to share the 10 dollars now i have less. But if I have 100 and my sister came along don't I still have to share it? yes i have more but you forget DR is an island of 8 million. The US is a country of 300 million and yet only 5% of that population controls 90% of the wealth. Don't forget that regardless of the US being richer it doesn't stop the fact that there are mexican cartels killing FBI agents and DEAs and that they have setup shop by the thousands in the national parks with armies and all taking over immense amounts of land in the west. That mexicans everyday kill people here. And even with all this I still don't blame it on the mexicans. Because they just see a hole and they exploit it. The governments are the ones who need to stop it.
Written by: Lautaro, 15 Jul 2009 3:50 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Nevertheless, my argument still remains on foot. Granted, the DR have to get involved in the process of solving the haitian problems INSIDE Haiti, but to expect the DR to carry all the burden by its lonesome (specially having a ton of problems of its own to contend with) is nothing more than stupidity and outright lunacy, in my humble opinion. I rest my case, which incidentally is the same one of the deputy above.
Written by: dominica, 15 Jul 2009 3:58 PM
From: United States
my point is not to say that this lies on the individuals or a race or a class of people. My point is to fall in line with what plato wrote about in the Crito. Socrates while being sent to jail by the senators and governors at the time for supposed treason against the state was arguing for the right of the state. His charges were that he was corrupting the youth. Showing them how to reason and think independently. Something the state considered treason because he was giving young adults the power to think. So they twisted the argument and made it seem as if he was corrupting the youth to go against the government. Well, he friend crito insisted on breaking socrates out of jail on which socrates denied. Socrates argued that the state is his parent and he can't defy it. for the state gives him his marriage, education, job, and all other freedoms that he has. In other words, without a government socrates would just be a caveman. FIX THE GOVERNMENT AND THIS WILL STOP UR CAVEMEN.
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Maybe you need to read the history of this country more often, Ricardolito, cuz' that scenario have already happened on this country, namely, when this country lost the Central Plateau of the island, with its towns of San Miguel de la Atalaya, Hincha (Pedro Santana's birthplace), Las Caobas, San Rafael and Tomasica, 3,165 kms2 in total, on the border negotiations with the haitian gov. of 1929-1936. The consequence of this loss would be the massacre of 1937, cuz' Trujillo, already angered and stung by the loss of this once fertile part of our island (now a wasteland), exploded when the haitian peasants residing on the border towns that were left to our country refused to heed his ultimatum to leave the place or else.
so maybe the mexicans are wrong for coming to america illegally and so it is the same for dominicans to come here illegally. But do we, dominicans, feel just as angered at the fact that our people are doing the same exact thing that the hatians are doing in our motherland? It is not because they love DR that they are coming over. Same as dominicans coming to america. Give a dominican a choice between America and DR (with the same luxuries) and most will chose DR. But coming to america is a necessity because it's either live in DR on 2 grains of rice or being able to send your kids to college. In haiti, there are no opportunities. So my argument is not that 1 side is right or wrong but instead that this argument needs to be settled intelligently. Until Haiti fixes it's country (and DR has to help), haitian immigration will always be a problem. Just keep in mind that although you might not be illegal, some of your same people are and are just as hated.
Not a lesser species, but they're certainly worse positioned in health, educational and nutrional parameters than the mexicans will ever be, cuz' despite all its flaws as a country, Mexico at least is an industrialized country and regional powerhouse while Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. No es lo mismo ni es igual.
you mistakened my position. Fact is that it doesn't matter if it were roaches that were crossing over. It has nothing to do with the class of people. The fact is that there is an influx of people that the dominican nation does not want on its side of the border. It doesn't matter if they had letrinas on their heads. the immigration problem here in the US, just because its mexicans, is no different. The same problems arise out of this. Regardless of if DR has it worst. The same problems arise. Just on a different scale. DR has a few different and unique issues due to it's geography but overall the political ramifications of this is the same here or on MARS. fact is there is only so much land and only so much infrastructure. FIX HAITI AND I WILL GUARANTEE THERE IS NO MORE PROBLEM. you can't fix this problem by hating haitians or killing them or deporting them. That isn't going to fix jack. They will come back by thousands once more. FIX their economy & ur done.
But the magnitude of the danger posed by civilian unrest will never be the same, because, contrary to the US case, the DR is among the most unequal societies on the distribution of income on the entire continent, only behind Brazil, Bolivia, Nicaragua and Haiti itself. When you take into account that the DR have to deal with thousands of additional poor already having more than half of its population below the poverty line, social and political stability of the country have the word disaster written all over them on the foreseeable future. How can you expect us to be capable of solving Haiti's problems when we have been incapable to solve our very own problems thus far?