From: Dominican Republic, Parque Colon statue of Anacaona
Thank God there are people in authority who think like this ......Quote...."“We are here to provide protection for the Haitians, because we will not allow people to take justice in their own hand and much less against those who had nothing to do with a crime that others must pay for,” said an unidentified Immigration official."
Written by: xwill7, 10 Aug 2009 10:08 AM
From: United States, El cuarto bate
hope everyone keeps a cool head
From: United States, Brooklyn
Another Dominican murdered by the savages...
Written by: vacanos, 10 Aug 2009 10:29 AM
From: United States, An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
my hope is that in the near future we can get rip of these illegal lacras and return them back to their country. now it is a routine for them. robar y matar dominicanos huir para su patria y volver cuando todo se calme. trujillo alive would had done wonder.
Written by: oupala07 
, 10 Aug 2009 10:53 AM
From: Canada
Any intelligent and non hatemonger can understand that Dominicans criminals are preying on their own people and lay the blame thereafter on haitians. Once again, we are poor but not stupid, and we would not be that foolish to go on a crime rampage in a country where people hate us.
Fortunately, the authorities are not that stupid and they were quick to realize the new tendency which is to commit crime, lay the blame on haitians and thereafter organize their own progrom. It happened when one of ours got coldly beheaded for a crime he did not commit. It has happened before that, is happening now and will continue in the future. And it is not the authorities that will be able to stop these monsters. It's time for our peasants to understand that the best thing for them is to go back to their land in Haiti and try to make a living out of it.
From: United States
I am very familiar with the area in and around "Canca La Reina" it is a small and impoverished but peaceful farming village near Moca-Not too long ago, If not a a rarity, certainly a novelty to see a Haitian in the area. Today they are in every nook and crany, even in the most remote locations of La Provincia Espallat. Violence against innocent people is barberic and must be condemned; However, the aggressive attitude of the native residents is simply reactionary behavior, a display of frustration. Why do authorities have to wait for the volcano to erupt before anything is done? How many more lynch mobs does it take to rise and cause havoc to really understand that we have a very serious problem brewing? My friend this is just a tip of the iceberg, we will continue to see this and other similar situations excalate to levels unseen, unless authorities become proactive, instead of coming out only to diffuse a problem that has been in the works all along in the first place.
From: United States
And what is it with DT to describing Haitians as: "immigrants of the neighboring country."I wonder how many of them are really immigrants?
Written by: oupala07 , 10 Aug 2009 11:00 AM
From: Canada
Sooner or later, you're going to stick on our back the killing rampage of your cocain drug dealers. Don't you worry, cowards will be the first to cry for mercy when pay back time arrives.
From: United States
Thanks God it is only: vacanos,,oupala,carlos franco and at least 4 more of this breed
There is hope.
Written by: generoso, 10 Aug 2009 11:49 AM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
etiennc01
Crawl back in your hole before I call immigration. LOL.
I agree with guillermone and his very lucid and informational post which is to be read.
The "illegal Haitians" are crowding and elbowing themselves on the Dominican food table, and also bringing their violence and superstitions with them. They are tolerated but not welcome by the Dominican campesinos as they bring nothing to the table, except more misery.
Haitians do not have a God given right to trespass and establish residence wherever they please in DR, just because we are such a hospitable and charitable nation, on top of that they are fueling xenophobic sentiment, never before witnessed in the DR.
The fuse to the powder keg will be lit one of these days, and then all hell will break loose.
Written by: Jander, 10 Aug 2009 12:08 PM
From: Dominican Republic
They are immigrants but surely ' illegal immigrants"
What the Haitian leaders need to do is to make an annoucement that they condem these vilolent actions carried out by a few bad eggs.
But Haitian leaders don't seem to give a dam so let justice be served but legally.
Written by: oupala07 , 10 Aug 2009 12:16 PM
From: Canada
Imagine in the 60s ans 70s if we used to treat your women, who used to cross freely our border and to come to work in our sex clubs, the same way you're treating our peasants now, would you still be that arrogant?
I am pretty sure that we'll talk about this again in a few decades. I can bet you all will be suffering of amnesia, because one way or the other, we will not only catch you, but we will overtake you economically and socially. Just keep watching and remembering, for if most of us are fitted with a wacked dog character, a lot of my fellow citizens however, won't forget, and they are, like most of you do your kids, paying a very high attention at passing those cowardly moments of yours to the next generations in order for them to have, one way or the other, their pay back when the time is right.
Written by: oupala07 , 10 Aug 2009 12:22 PM
From: Canada
As usual you are quick to point your racist fingers to Haitians, because they are defenseless. Why don't you let the authority perform their duty by investigating and catching the culprits whom my gut feeling tells me are Dominicans that are preying on Dominicans.
Your mob like reaction proves once more that you belong to a retarded society who think that it is still living in colonial times under the Spanish feodal rules.
Wake up fools! We're living in a world of law enforcement and not in one ruled by idiot mobsters and barbarian lynchers.
Written by: Escott, 10 Aug 2009 12:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Man hatians get a bad rap here and everywhere by Dominicans. Just another form of blame it on "Odderguy" all the ills of this country brought about by CORRUPT, UNCIVILIZED and with NO Morals Dominicans.
If I had a quarter for every murder and law broken by Dominicans in the Dominican Republic I wouldn't have to work for the rest of my life and feed the impoverished. But you all need the "Odderguy".
This is not a comment on what the article was about but how you can blame a whole race for your ills is beyond comprehension.
From: United States
Oupala said: "As usual you are quick to point your racist fingers to Haitians, because they are defenseless." No they are not...have you not heard of Sonia Pierre, how about NGO, the dozens of int'l prohaitian organizations that advocate in favor of or for the defense of Haitian indigents. And Oupala have you not heard of the term-"passive aggressive" behavior. This is the method most Haitians use as a form of defense mechanism for their survival. This tactic has worked well for them in the DR but to the detriment of the good and open heart of the majoritiy of Dominicans. This has been the reason which enabled such a vast number of Haitians to enter and remain living and working in the DR. Haitians are often unconscious of their impact on Dominicans and are genuinely dismayed when held to account for the inconvenience or discomfort caused by their behaviors and fail to see how they might have provoked a negative response, so they feel misunderstood, held to unreasonable standards
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
In other news
The Haitian diaspora in the US have to be remainded by ex press Bill Clinton to please give a flying zhit about Haiti and their brothers and sisters in their home land,
clinton said please haiti needs you, please don't be such slime ball race, everybody cares about their motherland except for you guys, come on, can you guys and your own freaking goverment just get alone. can you invest and bring back to your country all those skills you learn abroad, can you please stop thinking of yourself as if you were a diferent kind of haitian.
man, bill clinton sure is fighting a lost cause, to try to get haitians to care about thier own country is like trying to get osama bin laden to do the humpty hump dance.
On more thing why are the haitians so obssesed with everything dominican, they like flies flying over a turd, why if we're so racist and corrupt, why is it that you people don't go to the french and creole websites to talk zhit overthere, even in cyberspace
Written by: oupala07 , 10 Aug 2009 2:17 PM
From: Canada
To all of you hatemongers and big mouth, I give you an apointment in a few years when the depression will start chewing up your economy and your country will experience what economists dub negative growth. Then, I'll be there to find out if you'll still be that arrogant when our peasants will start returning back home to plow their land instead of staying in your country to get harassed and mobbed physically, verbally, socially and economically.
It will be very interesting indeed.
From: United States
Ying Yang
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
OUR PEASANTS!!!!!
etiennc01
your master is calling you, he want you to go back to your land and stay there, he needs a foot massage.
From: Dominican Republic
The action-reaction law of Newton comes a lot to mind.
From: United States
old school trinitario
it is hard to get a man with his master in child psychology ,who has tasted freedom to return to the days of giving sexual gratification to pervert slave owners.
The denotative definition of the the word "nostalgia" is a bittersweet longing for situations of the past but its connotative de finition is " old school trinitario "
By the way, what did I say to get your attention and get you to flip ?
ying yang ?
From: United States
fue una broma !!! ja ja ja ja !
From: United States
cyber dragon you have ran out of words or you just suffer from DHHM ( Dominicans Haitians Hablando Mierda )???
It is wise to "quedar callada en lugar to being redundant and erratic like ""old timer trinitario"""
You say you love me ?
Oh thank you ,Igual !
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
etiennc01
you may have a master in child pornography, but you still a peasant.
yo probablemente hable mierda, pero no soy igual que tu que te la comes.
jajajajaj
fue una broma
From: Canada
@gladiator,
Your comment show me your Q.I.
From: United States
what is it with that "oupala07" guy. this mofo lives here on this site talking his mierda 7/24. don't you have a life. on the ocassion that i visit this site you are here. there are too too many of your people over there & with the limited resources and jobs there is not enough to go around.with surplus haitians becoming brazen and aggressive a violent dominican reaction can be expected.your own country is a mess i surely would not want that repeated in the DR.you hatians overseas in the US,canda,& france should take the lead in something,ANTHING, for your country & stop using the DR as a default outlet.
From: United States
Fue una broma ha ha ha ha !!!
From: United States
Old school trinitario, what makes people hold prejudices is when they make deductive
judgment instead of inductive judgment ( NO I WILL NOT EXPLAIN )
This is why you still think that I am a peasant( agricultural worker who feeds the bourgeois old schol triniario) La historia de todas las sociedas ha sido la lucha de classes
I just do not know why u feel confortable around peasants and uncorfortable around well educated Haitians and Haitians Dominicans who understand both cultures They also understand the challenges facing both countries and they use all tools and resources( humour) to calm down the spirits and disarm,neutralize and marginalize the hate mongers on both sides.
Unless a strong earthquaque divides the island in two seperate islands along the Haitian Dominican border old school trinatario u will continue to post your worries and fear to deaf ears.
Sir, the future belongs to calm,reasonable,intelligent leaders not to anachists ( Obama and the republicans"
From: United States
old school trnitario what did i say to make you flip tha way .?
I AM WAITING !!!
Written by: oupala07 , 11 Aug 2009 1:00 AM
From: Canada
eltinaje01
You risk to hear from me much more often then, because I always bypasse people like you whose brain power can rival Einstein's IQ, and you, my friend, possess maybe even more bang in processing power than his. What do you think, boy?
in fact this is the first time in my life I meet someone so intelligent. My dear friend you should be teaching at some famous Universtity and help the younger generations in good mannerinf and the proper way to behave in public. I sincerily think that you are wasting a God given talent.
I am pretty sure that you are going to put all that talent of yours at your community living in the United States in order to let them know that there some Boroughs in North America's megalopoles that have been taken over by immigrants coming from other countries.
Tell them that the Americans did not treat them the way your people are treating mine in the Caribeans.
Maybe and thanks to you, they'll understand how it is to be foreigner and unwanted
Written by: telemeco, 11 Aug 2009 7:13 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Monte Plata
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
etiennc01
I'm pretty sure that you are the kind of dude that talk to yourself more than you talk to other people, and live and fantasy world with a lot of internet friends.
You Don't live in DR so therefore you don't know jack zhit what's going on down here.
what i can see judging by the amount of time you spend on this website is that you wish you were dominican, but that's o.k, alot of people do, the problem is that you're a trying to hard to connect and because of that you coming across as another haitian troll with an identity problem.
I suggest you find a internet site that caters their content to your interest and ethnic background, maybe there you'll find many more friends and aceptance.
In the meantime in the real world the violence is spreading in santiago and more haitian nationals are been chase back to the border by and angry mobs.
http://www.clavedigital.com/App_P....s/Noticias.aspx?id_Articulo=25316sorry pero en RD no hay cama pa' tanta gente.
From: Dominican Republic
Same Old Blame Game huh shit is getting really old. Reminds of the Movie Rosewood.
telemeco, thanks for that info especially the youtube video.
From: United States
old trinitario says:
"The real vilolence is spreading "throughout "Santiago ( grammatical correction)
Just the kind of intelligent activities to encourage . They will surely improve the image of a country depending on tourism and foreign investment to make steady progress
No country can can better the lives of a few without oppressing a weak , poor, and silent group No country can offer a good education , good services ,a chance to move up the economical ladder to a few (oldschooltrinitario) without the cheap labor of one group
Be careful to know to which foot are attached the toes that you are stepping on
( Wise proverb)
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
messiu what did i said to make you flip?
the part that says that no matter how much time you spend on this website you'll never connect with dominican culture and way of life or the part that says that you're a lonely looser with no freinds trying to be accepted by people by been the voice of reason.
piti be careful to know which of my foot is going to travel deep inside your cocco, my left foot is stronger than my right foot.
and feel free spell check my gramma, i'll give you that, you are a very educated looser
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
Reitero que la nacionalidad dominicana está en peligro, aunque muchos no quieran darse cuenta, sea cual sea la razón que los motive, pero de que está en peligro, lo está. La candela está quemando por abajo, como se quema la cáscara del arroz, sin que se manifieste en la superficie, aunque al pisarla la quemadura que produce es dolorosa y traumática, al igual que el problema de la inmigración ilegal haitiana para la dominicanidad
Estoy consciente de la crítica que estos conceptos generan y todo aquél que se atreve a exponerlo de inmediato recibe al menos el sambenito de antihaitiano, xenófobo, racista y cuantos epítetos puedan pronunciar; mas "los espíritus mediocres suelen condenar todo aquello que está fuera del alcance de ellos", y los conceptos de Patria, Dominicanidad, Nación representan una carga demasiado pesada para estas mentes enfermizas.
los argumentos que presentan estos muchos aqui tiene como finalidad undir la patria
pero el filo del machete tiene la ultima palabra
From: United States
Khan-You need to do a little more reading and must be Dominican born to fully understand what your father is talking about when he refers to his skin color as "indio" which apparently you don't. Yes, there is a major difference between Dominicans and Haitians and you like some people don't know the difference or have a lot of difficulty on how to tell the difference or are just plain clueless. But regardless of your abilities to distinguish between the two, it should be obvious at first glance, unless you believe in the one drop rule. My brother married a swedish blue eye blond and his 3 children all look like their mother, but in a slightly darker shade of white, but definitely no traces of a colored ancestry in appearance. They look like any variety of nordic white or southern mediterranean olive skin europeans. Now I ask you Khan, as a Dominican and person of color, does that automatically make my nieces and nephews black because their father is non-white or off-white?
From: United States
Khan-In Haiti 95% of the population is pure-bred, unmixed, ebony-negro with only 4% mulatoes and 1% white. They are not as you say mix "black african and white french.." That means the vast and overall majority of Haitians are definitely, undeniable, pure, unadulterated, midnight, petroleum, jet-BLACK. No questions asked--period. Dominicans to the contrary, aprox 20% white & 20% black, not counting illegal haitians, the majority is 60% multiracial, white, black and native indian with a touch of asian and middle eastern. But the bottom line is that Dominicans do not have well defined race lines, no country in the world is like us (except Brazil). This may be the reason why it is so hard for outsiders to fully understand our unique racial make-up because it is quite complex and not as simple as black and white (no pun intended). So Don't confuse the issue or give us your US African-American militant "slave master" ideology. Dominicans do not fit the identity or share that mentality.
From: United States
Knan-Neverheless, what you need to understand is that the Dominican/Haitian conflict is not a racial one at all as most would want us to believe. It is rather more of a political, territorial, cutural and economic dispute that has spanned a few centuries with Haiti always the agressor either by military invasion or by their present passive, non-violent methods. Read your history so that you can gain insight into the Dominican psyche
Written by: cvzdez, 11 Aug 2009 6:55 PM
From: United States
Written by: old_school_trinitario, PLEASE NOTE THAT THE HAITIAN DIASPORA SENDS BACK MORE MONEY THEN any S. Am or Carib. Nation to it's country. Pls dom'tt speak on things you do do not understand, it is not good to speak based on third person info. they are inaccurate. I am a haitian diaspora my parrents and all of the haitians I know send back hundreds of dollars a month to family members back home. I do aggree with you though that I do wish haitians would go back to our own countrys but we have many leached in the haitian gov't, dominicans, US, drug dealers from other countries like dr, or S. Am. and an imbalance of haitian politicitians looking out for them selves. Too many hands in the pot. I believe we the carribean as a whole put to much faith in our colonial fathers, and not in the power of the carribean. Some haitians are self destructive , but so many old colonies including dominicans. if we don't help each other the carribean will never be a strong region.
From: United States
A known crazy man enters a church and yells: fire, everyone stays put listening to the preacher , the man runs out of the church . A friends asks him :why did run out because you were only joking,
He replies : shit ! i said fire and everyone ignores me so I run out thiking that they will follow me.
got that joke ?
I got a bottle/20 tablets of SEROQUEL RX I had bipolar disorder.
I was so depressed,I had a gloom and loom view of the world.
I thought everybody was out to hurt me
I am cured now , I feel a little bit better now.I am optimistic and outgoing
I have no use for the pills now , anyone wants them to treat their depression ????
From: United States
Read: gloom and doom instead of gloom and loom
From: United States Virgin Islands
@Guillermone: I used to live in Hispaniola (DR and Haiti) and frankly speaking I do not see the difference between a Dominican and a Haitian person (in general). THEY ARE BOTH BLACK TO ME! They both have negro blood. The only difference is that DR has more caucasians than Haiti. As far as I am concerned whether you have caucasoid or negroid blood, we are all human beings. I was speaking to a 90 year old Dominican woman and she was saying that when she was in school at an early age, she was taught to hate all Haitians. Perhaps, the same thing is happening today and is part of Dominican culture and the hate for Haitians begins in school. I have spoken to Haitians who went to school in Haiti and the hate of Dominicans is not part of the curriculum. By the way, there is good news for Haiti. The international community wants Haiti to change and yes it will change (I predict 20 years) . Once it does the illegals will go back to work in their country.
Written by: khan228, 12 Aug 2009 9:43 AM
From: United States
guillermone, I respect your comments however, I would like to respond especially about knowing my dominican history.. I know it well. Believe me. My father made certain of that...!! He is a proud Dominican through and through. I also know all too well the relationship the DR has with our hatian brothers and sisters too. Im in Santo Domingo 2-3 times/ year to visit family since I could remember and I know first hand the feelings most dominicans have towards hatians and dark skin in general. Complaints of crime is a issue but with or without hatians, the DR is a corrupt place so its not like domincans dont commit crimes too. The big problem I see is that dominicans believe hatians are taking jobs much like mexicans do in the us.. They perform labor for less. I understand the fustration but my point in the previous post was how most domincans do not want to be associated with being black.. Anything but black.. When that self hating brainwashing is aimed at hatians it is sad
Written by: khan228, 12 Aug 2009 9:59 AM
From: United States
guillermone, Wow.. They are not real Dominicans..? You mention Samana etc and you are right about how those people got there and in fact many still have English last names because they were named for their white slave owners just like the white spaniards named their slaves after them as well. I think we can all agree there.. Next point, the slave ship brought african slaves to the US and then to the DR for labor in some of these parts like you said.. Ok true... The slave ship brought african slaves directly from africa to the DR as well...Agreed.. All of this happened 100+ years ago with very similar circumstances with the exception that some slaves took a detour. You mean to tell me because their ancestors took a detour that these people are not ever going to be considered "real dominican". Not even after living there for over 100 years..? I disagree. Perhaps you can explain when and how one becomes Dominicano..? Im not trying to be disrepectful but this is exactly w
From: United States
The real most authentic Dominicans are the Cibaeños who were isolated from the rest of the country away from outside foreign influences, the ones who fought against the Haitians to gain independence after a 22 year rule. The Cibaeños have a culture that can be apropriately and uniquely called Dominican. However, not the case with cutural expression of the Guloyas from San Pedro which are not and can not be identified as Dominican. Their customs and habits came from nearby English speaking islands. The same is true with the descendants of Haitians near the border which practice voodoo and gaga dance rituals, this is not Dominican. The escaped slaves in Samana have English last names and practice a religion that is not part of the mainstream Dominican culture. They are believers of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. (AME). The same with the German Jews that settled in Sosua. The DR is a Hispanic country, our culture is Spanish, with Catholicism as the religion of the majority.
From: United States
When the Dominican Republic was founded and created as a nation is was clearly and specifically stated in our constitution as a patriotic requirement, the strict separation of Haiti as vital for our survival, otherwise the Dominican Republic will disappear as a country.
"En el nombre de la santísima, augustísima e indivisible Trinidad de Dios Omnipotente, en manos de nuestro presidente Juan Pablo Duarte, cooperar con mi persona, vida y bienes a la Separación definitiva del gobierno haitiano, y a implantar una República libre, soberana e independiente de toda dominación extranjera, que se denominará República Dominicana,"
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
guille
no pierdas tu tiempo discutiendo dominicanidad con esta gente, estos tipos son nacidos en el extrangero y se creen que porque "visitan" la parte verde de la isla eso los hace expertos en lo que esta malo en RD, nosotros no somos una raza perfecta pero si somos una raza mixta que mira su nacionalidad primero y luego el color de la piel, esta gente mira el color de la piel y luego la nacionalidad, es por eso que estan tan atrasados, siempre sacando el racismo como excusa para justificar el maltrato que le dan en RD, pero nunca admiten que vivir como esclavo en dominicana es mejor 100 veces que vivir como esclavos en su propio pais, ademas tampoco admiten principalmente estos personajes cyberneticos de DT.com es que ellos son tambien responsables por la decadencia del pueblo haitiano. Si unos de estos aspirantes a dominicano se quiere dar cuenta de la realidad que vive el pais, que se de una vueltecita a pie por santiago pa que sepa si es menta lo que chupa la burra.
From: United States
Muchas gracias Trini-Creo que eso es lo que voy hacer. Si no quieren entender entonces no hay ma'na que hablá.
Written by: Geisa, 12 Aug 2009 12:27 PM
From: United States, Pembroke Pines, FL
Why do we have such hatred for Haitians? I've lived in the US since I was 4 and alot of my friends happen to be Haitian... they are no different than anyone else just trying to make a living. The Haitians going over to DR is no different than Dominicans going over to Puerto Rico en yolas. We need to respect each other as humans that we are because when we are all in front of God he will not see skin color. That's WORD!
From: United States
GEISA-There you go again. You are just another person trying to confuse the issue. Why is it that everyone keeps saying the Dominicans hate Haitians because of color. That is totally and absolutely false. Please people stop trying to misinform others about the real Dominican/Haitian conflict. I keep repeating myself over and over again stop saying that PLEASE!!! The problem is not racial hatred. Geisha if you are Dominican learn about your history and culture before speaking, because you qualify as a clueless and ignorant person. I am sorry to get personal but I have no way to describe people like you who keep misleading others. Like I repeated before, the problems has less to do about race but more of political, territorial, cutural and economic dispute that has spanned a few centuries with Haiti always the agressor either by military invasion or by their present passive, non-violent methods. Please read your history so that you can gain better insight about what is the real issue
From: United States
Can't people get that through their thick heads that Haiti is an agressor nation and has always been our attacker and invader against Dominican people. Haitians committed atrocities against us worse then Hitler did to the Jews. Do you think the Jews are going to forget the crimes commited against them, then why should the Dominicans forgive and forget? We Dominicans are such noble people that we have already mostly forgotten what they did and are doing to us now. How else is it possible to allow over 2 million Haitians to enter live and work peacefully on foreign territory without legal permission and with minimal resistance, except for a few isolated conflicts in rural communities. Think about it, DR is poor yet 2 million Haitians plus their descendents represent over 25% of the population. No country in the world has that many illegals. So don't give me this BS that we hate Haitians. True hatred would have never allowed such disrespectful intrusion against our national sovereignty.
Written by: tainos, 12 Aug 2009 1:37 PM
From: United States
Guillermone -if you are so concerned for your countrymen and how Haitians are destroying the DR, then why the hell do you live in the US?
From: United States
Taino-Ok, you Haitian lover, cape crusader and defender of justice, What does that have to do with the price of beans? That is a totally irrelevent statement. You sound like another one of those clueless people that don't know what they are talking about.
Now tell me Ms Tainos, What do you want me to do, permanently move back and stay in the DR take arms and start shooting Haitians? Anyway, I live in Santiago and have a second home in South Florida so that in case of a Haitian invasion, I have a place to go and excape. Anyway, all kidding aside, I travel back and forth on a regular basis. All of my family is permanently stationed in the DR for now, but my company moves me around aproximately every 5-8 years. Now what is your excuse?
Written by: tainos, 12 Aug 2009 3:05 PM
From: United States
I am a lover of all people.
My point is that many educated, successful Dominicans do not return to their country to help make it a better place for those who are left behind. The DR just needs more infrastructure and a way to deal with legal and illegal immigration. Legal and illegal Haitians are just trying to find a way to survive and provide for their families. We should all care about our neighbors.
It's the same attitude in the US of close the borders whenever a non-native born does anything wrong. Those people are the exceptions, not the rule. AND Innocent people should not have to hide.
From: United States
Tainos-WRONG...... YOUR ARE TOTALLY WRONG, though your heart and thought is humanitarian and I commend you for that, unfortunately it does not take into account the high costs poor Dominican pay as a result of a Haitian invasion, your ideas are TOTALLY OUT OF PERSPECTIVE with reality. You simply do not understand the implications and magnitude of the problem by allowing an uncontrolled massive migration of illegals to enter another impoverished country. Comparing Dominican migration problems as something similar to that of the US is preposterous. You need to compare apples to apples and not oranges to bananas, which is what you are doing. You have been away from the DR far too long and you don't know and understand what is really going on. Don't get me wrong I feel for the Haitian people and I have made humanitarian trips to Haiti, but chaotic migrations to our territory is unacceptable and if allowed to continue, the DR will eventually disappear as the country you think U know today.
Written by: tainos, 12 Aug 2009 4:43 PM
From: United States
What do you propose as a solution to the problem?
From: United States
I propose that the whole world intervenes to assist Haiti until Haiti can finally resolve their internal problems and turn around from a failed state into a solid republic. The European union the ones who sponsor NGO's to pressure the DR to continue accepting more Haitians then what we already have, must be willing to equally accept the burden of the thousands of impoverished Haitians that seek excape from their poverty. France, US and Canada have wealth, the land and the resources to take in millions of desperate and hungry Haitians. South and Central America has many under populated countries with lots of land and natural resources such as French Guiana, English Guyana, Suriname and Belize. Int'l funding can arrange resettlement agreements to help Haitians find a new life elsewhere. In the mean time the DR must penalize employer who hire illegal aliens instead of looking the other way and apply the already established 80/20 rule for foreign workers who have permission to work
From: United States
Taino-What you fail to realize is that the problem with Haiti is not as simple as it looks, you can not take it at face value. This not just about poor people looking for a better life in another country, like most immigrants in the US. There is another ulterior motive, a master plan under the table with the sole purpose to unite both countries, Haiti and DR, this is what it is all about. The int'l community seeks a way to take Haiti off their back once and for all. Remember every year millions of dollars pours into Haiti as humanitarian aide but the money is never enough. The more they send the worse Haiti gets and they can not or want to continue sponsoring Haiti anymore. The world is tired and is shoving the hot potatoe on the DR. It is the easiest, most practical way out of this dilemma. Haiti tried military intervention but it did not work but now it is through passive invasion. In this manner if you attempt to hurt a Haitian the DR will be condemned, this is a perfect strategy.
From: United States Virgin Islands
@Guillermone: I just do not understand why Haiti and DR do not unite? All of you people are of a dark color. It is one island. Dominicans can learn French and Haitians can learn Spanish. Forget about all the BS history of your great grandfathers and love each other. That way us tourists/foreigners can enjoy both sides of the island without a stupid border. The name of the island can be changed. Heck! Name the whole island Dominican Republic since it has a better reputation than Haiti. We do not care what you guys name the island. We do not care about this stupid fude of yours. All we want to do is enjoy paradise in peace. At the same time you guys can also have peace and the whole island would enjoy a better future. Que te parece?
From: United States
For the moment Dominicans can not fight back, their hands are tied, until of course their tempers flare-up and in frustration explode. What happened with the incident in the article above is a result of faliure from authorities to take action. The residents numerous times contacted the authorities because of the multiple anti-social and mis-behavior of the Haitians. They continually notified and requested their deportation. But Dominicans authorities failed to take head and simply ignored their requests. It was not until and only after a crowed of vigilantes or a lynch mob did the anyone show up, but instead of deporting the Haitians, they came in to intervene to protect them. How ironic. Now tell me this is not a conspiracy or what. This is exactly what happens when a shop owner is held up at gun point but is able to defend himself and shoots the asailant. But the police intead of condeming the assailant takes the shop owner to jail because he shot the robber. Ironic indeed
From: United States
Docpeters-You are right!! We will find a cute little colored boy for you to enjoy paradise. I know that is what you like. You US American Black people always seek those cute little black boys. To provide services at a cheap cost. Yeah lets all unite, you will have a little black Domican boy at the top and a little Haitian one for you at the bottom and they can both agree and meet somewhere in the middle. I have seen you at the beach Docpeters hanging around the the sanky pankies.
From: United States Virgin Islands
Of course, I will overlook your comment about being black american and love boys. That was actually funny. On a more serious note, look at Canada. Most of Canada speak English but Quebec speaks French. Some years ago, Quebec wanted to part ways with Canada but they soon realize they are better off united. Although, they speak different languages, they are united. Guillermone, why don't you help promote the unity of your island. Everyone would be a winner. Haitians will no longer go the U.S. and Dominicans will no longer go to Puerto Rico. The unity of the island will help the island prosper and hence provide jobs for HISPANIOLANS.
From: United States
Yeah Docpeters, I know you are being sarcastic, but I will go along with you for entertainment purposes only. But if you think that the socio-cultural dissimilarities between the DR and Haiti will help us unite you are dead wrong.
Now if you think unification is kool and such a great idea, then you go ahead and tell that to the Palestinians within the state of Israel. Tell that to Northern Ireland and Ireland. Tell the same thing to the people of former Yugoslavia if they want to forget about independence and join back and forget: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Slovenia. You tell that to the people of the former Czechoslovakia to forget about their split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. You tell that to the people of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and Cyprus. You go to India, Bangladesh and Pakistan and tell them they should unite again. Tell Taiwan and mainland china to get back together again. Doc, I can go on and on
From: United States
Doc-Your Idea will not work. It will create more problems then solutions. If something like that is attempted, the results will be genocide. Look at all of the countries all over the world that attempted a unification process and all were disasters. Your idea is a dangerous proposition. So don't even think about it.
Written by: oupala07 , 13 Aug 2009 5:21 AM
From: Canada
Docpeters,
First- We, Haitians, do not want reunification with the Dominicans and second, our country name is not Hispagnola, but Haiti, Quisqueya or Bohio. I suggest you go promote your reunification ambition to other dudes.
Another thing, Quebec is not a province in my book: it is a nation under occupation. In fact, it is its elite and the catholic Church that keep the french canadians under the English canadian rule.
Go seek the right info before you come to play referee here
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 10:47 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The thing is, khan228, is that you and other foreign born fellows need to learn and swallow the fact that the DR IS NOT THE USA. The DR is a Third World country (I know that oupala and others dislike the term, but I have used it in order to drive the point home to these unification fellows), and as such, it can't afford to absorb the social outcasts from another society, without risking its own socioeconomic status, specially when we take into account that the DR have MANY poor people of its own, whose needs it has the duty to fulfill FIRST before thinking about filling the needs of others. If the dominican state were to help haitian inmigrants above the needs of its own people, do you honestly think that the dominican populace will swallow this without being hell to pay? Haven't you heard about the saying that goes by "no se puede desvestir un santo para vestir a otro"? You'll have to excuse us if we take your "cosmic negroism" as we would take a grain of salt (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 10:49 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont....)
You'll have to excuse us if we take your "cosmic negroism", "pan-africanism" and "one-drop" mentality as we would take a grain of salt, but to put it in plain spanish, on the DR "no hay cama pa' tanta gente" (there are not enough beds to accomodate so many people), specially with the irish tendency that the majority of the haitian families from the peasantry have of giving birth to more children than their pockets can possibly afford, an old custom from the early days of independence, when manpower was at such a low that the peasant families had to put their own children to work the crops of their plots in order to fulfill their needs, and one that needs to be eradicated on the increasingly urbanized landscape of both countries, less we want to face an islandwide famine.
From: United States
Khan-My comment was directed at Docpeters. He was trying to hit me below the belt so I countered with a response which sounded racial but was not my intent, I apologize if you were offended. Docpeters knows that Dominicans do not like to be compared to Haitians and he knew exactly how to get a reaction out of me. However, I played along for entertainment.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 11:06 AM
From: United States
guillermone, The indigenous people of the island of hispanola were wiped many years ago. Spaniards brought disease, murder and african slaves like the europeans y french. They raped african women, had them bear children and made the black man watch. They took the God of your anscestors and replaced it with theirs. YOUR people were SYSTEMATICALLY AND LEGALLY brutalized world-wide. You live and breath today due to the exact circumstances as the hatians, black americans, puerto ricans, cubanos, brazilians and anyone else who is of african/mixed decent. That said can you really write about what a real Dominican is and is not? The DR is a place, not a race. Hatians are proud people. They are mi familia just like they are yours. If black people globally(and yes Domincans are included) ever unite, we would be so powerful. But instead, all I only see is the results of the slave master's divde and conquer techniques. You words reflect the slave masters work. Unchain your mind
From: United States
Khan you are confusing race with culture. The Cibao region and the Cibaeño people, the most authoctonous of the Dominican Republic. Nevertheless, I did say that even though "Dominicans" from other regions of the DR hold Dominican nationality, their ethnic and cultural origins do not represent authentic Dominican culture. The Cibao region historically was isolated from the rest of the country, and therefore the culture remained relatively pure and intact without the outside influences of foreign immigrants who came to work in the DR. I am sorry but if you are Chinese or a German Jew who immigrated to the DR you are not representative of true Dominican culture. So Khan don't try to force a square into a round hole. We are a hispanic country and our culture is Spanish derived and the only region which retained their very own uniqueness and particularity was the Cibao. The rest of the country had other mixes that does not enrich the uniqueness but rather dilutes our authenticity.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 11:11 AM
From: United States
guillermone, I saw your apology prior to my most recent post. Thank you for that.. I do respect your opinions and views.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 11:22 AM
From: United States
Lautaro, no need to translate.. My spanish is decent bro.. My papa taught me well.. lol. Btw.. your I lost it when I read your "cosmic negro" comment... Ok, that was classic and funny as hell... LMAO.. Good one.... That said, I do respectfully disagree with you my brother.. and by the way, I may be foreign born but I am still of Dominican decent... My family does claim me there... lol.. We have these kinds of discussions all the time and they very much take the same views of those expressed by you and guillermone. I just see things on a much larger scale.. but... very funny comment... You got me on that one.. LMAO
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 11:25 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What can I say? if we can't agree, at the very least we can have some laughs together. :-)
I learned that term on one of those forums discussing racial issues in the US. They discuss this ideology and the one-drop rule all the time. It's just a pun to the concept of "cosmic race" (mestizaje) that has been adopted on the majority of latin american countries with significant native populations. And which consists on insisting on the need of abandoning national identities in order to adopt a common "racial" identity. Marcus Garvey fought for this during the first half of the XXth century in the area of the african and caribbean english speaking countries, but he would only get partial success for all his endeavour.
http://thestudyofracialism.org/index.phpFrom: United States
Khan-"The indigenous people of the island of hispanola were wiped many years ago."
Dominicans never believed that and never accepted statements made by historians, which always claimed that the indegenous people of Hispañiola disappeared during the early periods of Colonization, regardless of the lack of scientific proof to support it. Dominicans traditionally had always insisted that a major part of our bloodline was composed of the native population of Taino or Arawak indians. It was not until just recently, through DNA testing and extensive studies, it was determined and concluded that yes the indigenous people were not totally wiped-out by the Spanards but survived a few more centuries longer then it was originally believed and has always been part of the racial make-up of the Dominican people. We were able to prove what we suspected all along. Coincidentally, the highest concentration of traces of one specific indigenous DNA was found among the residents of the Cibao region.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 12:18 PM
From: United States
Gullermone, you said this about people who live outside of and quote, "The rest of the country had other mixes that does not enrich the uniqueness but rather dilutes our authenticity". Wow... sounds a little like hitler to me.. Not trying to piss you off but you have to admit that it does.. Which begs my next question: Are you from the Cibao region or do you (in your words) contribute to diluting the authenticity of the Dominican Republic. This cosmic negro would like to know.
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 12:26 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
No offense guillermone, but your recent posts smacks of cibaeño separatism to me. And for your info, the Cibao is not the only center of european culture in the country. If you cared to look outside the cordillera central, you'll find that Bani (my maternal family is among the very european founders of this town), the capital and Hato Mayor are very well represented on this account. Heck, in Hato Mayor there are even corridas de toros like in good ole' Spain, for goodness sake.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 12:34 PM
From: United States
I feel compelled to ask a direct blanket question.
Culturally, the perception most Dominicans convey is one of pride regarding our spanish blood/lineage and one of shame/resentment or even total rejection and denial of our african blood/lineage? I could be wrong but very few dominicans I know have claimed both with pride.
My question is why do we not claim our african ancestory with equal pride..? It is what in fact makes us Dominicano right..? Instead we run from it. To run from it is to deny what is staring back at one in the mirror. Do you not agree..?
I look forward to anyone's feedback on this issue
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 12:38 PM
From: United States
Lautaro,
Good point...
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 12:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
khan said: "My question is why do we not claim our african ancestory with equal pride..? It is what in fact makes us Dominicano right..? Instead we run from it. To run from it is to deny what is staring back at one in the mirror. Do you not agree..?"
While I agree with recognizing equally all the parts of our heritage, however, I don't agree with the way the african heritage part of our culture is being used by the international NGO's in order to force this country to relinquish its sovereignity on its inmigrant issues with our western neighbours. That, dear sir, is where I (and many dominicans) draw the line. One thing is to have solidarity, and help in whatever way we can, in ameliorating the situation of an unfortunate relative, and another very different thing, is to be taken for a fool and let the relative have a say in how we run our house, so to speak. Haitian inmigration is not only a dominican issue, is a caribbeanwide phenomenon, and as such it must be dealt with.
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 12:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) specially when we take into account that the european commonwealths surrounding us, although smaller territory wise than our island (except for the Guyanas), are far wealthier than us, and as such, are better equipped than us to deal with the issue. No podemos dejar que nos carguen el muerto solamente a nuestra cuenta si esta en nuestro poder el evitarlo. De fallar en esto, las generaciones futuras jamás nos lo perdonaran. Como diría el difunto Bosch "o jugamos todos con las mismas reglas, o se rompe la baraja".
From: United States
Sorry Lautaro about that but Cibaeños tend to be regionalistic, at times get carried away. Don't be surprise if some day one of us comes up with the idea and proposes the Cibao to become an independent and automomous state. But yes, you are 100% correct the founders of Bani were mostly Spaniards from the Canary Islands, but it was a late migration of Europeans and Bani is a coastal city and as such is not self-contained as is the Cibao. But regardless of that, I have great admiration for "los siempra hielo de Bani" very industrious and entrepreneurial people. It is also the birth place of Generalissimo Maximo Gomez, one of Cuba's patriots. He was a general of generals, a military mastermind. I once lived in Boston and had many very good Banilejo friends, los Pimentel's, Heredia, and Soto families, lost track of them once I moved away years ago. Hato Mayor also has a very strong Spanish ancestry among its residents was part of El Seibo birth towns of Freddy Beras and Charytin Goico
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 1:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
My mother's family is one of the branches that the Soto family have. Although we have lost contact with some of the relatives over the years. We're also related with the Melo and Peguero families.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 1:23 PM
From: United States
Lautaro,
I would agree to the extent that socio-economic and class struggle probably plays the major portion of the roles regarding views towards hatians living in the dr. That said, I cant help but wonder how much the desire to be as caucasion as possible that many domincans have plays a role in terms of having additional feelings of contempt and resentment towards hatians, particularly dark hatians. You must admit that most uneducated Dominicans just know that they dislike or even hate hatians and that is all. They've not bothered to explore this issue further on a grandular level like we've done on this forum. That is the main reason Ive focused my comments along these lines as it is definately a worthy point of examination.
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 1:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It's certainly a factor explaining things, although it doesn't tell all the story, as many malicious people out there like to represent. In some sense, their blackness have been a shield that have prevented the haitians from really discussing the societal issues plaguing them, cuz' it's just very easy to blame the "blancs" and the "panyols" for all the country's maladies, without making an exercise of self-criticism, like for example, attacking the militarism that have plagued the haitian political landscape since the beginning. As an old haitian saying goes "constitutions are made of paper, while bayonets are made of steel", the party who possess the more bayonets takes it all.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 1:33 PM
From: United States
guillermone, looks like Lautaro is of the Soto clan and I am from Boston (Roxybury to be exact). You having lived in Boston probably know first hand about how large our Dominican and Hatian communities are here.. That said you probably also know that the same issues exist between the two even here in the US... That is what drive me to believe there is more behind it than what meets the eye... Either way, whether you agree or not, I think its great we can have these kinds of discussions
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 1:37 PM
From: United States
Lautaro,
Again, well said.. and point taken... It is definately a multi-dimensional story and focusing on just one aspect does a dis-service to the entire picture. Many factors play into this.. Agreed..
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Aug 2009 1:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
You should get into the forum from time to time. Although I would advise you to arm yourself with nerves of steel, as the environment is waay more aggressive than on this area.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 2:23 PM
From: United States
I think I will hop on from time to time. I give respect where respect only where respect is due believe me... Thank you for the tip, the warning and your comments during this discussion. Interesting stuff..
From: United States
Khan-I moved away from Boston years ago, but I am very familiar with Roxbury. I lived nearby Jamaica Plain when it was working class. I've been told it has gone upscale. When I lived in Bos not many Haitians and at the time they did not migrate to the DR in mass numbers. The Hispanics were few mostly Pto Ricans and some Banilejos. Now that you say you are from Bos, I can understand the origins of your points of view. Bos was and maybe still is a very racist city. I lived through most of the race riots, during school desegregation and forced busing. I personally had to deal with racially motivated incidents from Irish Americans. They constantly wanted me to define my race, they had a hard time understanding that there are things in between black and white. I have Caucasian features with medium-olive complexion, but the long winters lightens the skin a lot. They wanted to get agressive but held back, baffled because they could never actually figure out my race. In the end I was the Spic
Written by: tainos, 13 Aug 2009 3:15 PM
From: United States
If you want to read an interesting book on the subject of Haitians & Dominicans and culture, read "Black Behind the Ears: Dominican Racial Identity from Museums to Beauty Shops".
From: United States
Yes, dicen que todo Dominicano tiene "el negro detras de la oreja." That is probably what that books is all about, but I will look it up when I get a chance.
Written by: khan228, 13 Aug 2009 5:09 PM
From: United States
guillermone, you are correct, Boston is very racist still. There was a major influx of hatians during the late 70's, 80's. Mostly in Mattapan and Dorchester areas. Dominicans & Capeverdeans slowly increased their numbers as well. Just come to one of our Parades and you will see. lol. That said, S. Boston is still Irish but blacks and hispanics have moved in to parts. N. Boston still italian with more contempt for the Irish than anyone. E. Boston still Greek and Mattapan Dorchester, Roxbury is still mostly black, hispanic capverdeans. Many gangs still exist but you are right. If you are dominican in Boston you are a spic or a nigga-spic and to most white people and there is no difference. Black bostonians look at dominicans as spanish speaking black people who sometimes wish they were not black. Same with capeverdeans. They are portugese speaking black people who sometimes refuse to be black and so on. You may be interested to know that the city is now majority non-white
From: United States
guillermone I just wanted to commend your ability to fend of foreign perceptions of "racism". We already have to deal with this nonsense on the forum, I didn't know foreginers spewed that garbage here too.
I also found your pride in Cibao funny. It's true, we cibaenos get so carried away with our love for our region, more than any other Dominicans I meet.
From: United States Virgin Islands
@Khan 228: What are you talking about "slave masters"? There are no more slave masters. As far as Hispaniola is concerned, the slave masters were killed starting with the Haitian Revolution in 1791. That was over 200 years ago. This is a new world were the black man and native indians are free. You are not the only one who envision a United Africa. Col. Gaddafi wants the same. This could include Haiti, Jamaica and the Dominican Republic. He envisages a single African military force, a single currency and a single passport for Africans to move freely around the continent. He also raised eyebrows by saying that multi-party democracy only led to bloodshed in Africa and that the best model for Africa was his own country, where opposition parties are not allowed (BBC News). Ex-Emperor of Ethiopa, Haile Selassie also dreamed a United Africa and united black people around the world. Dominican President Leonel has befriended Gaddafi, your dream may come true :-) .
Written by: khan228, 14 Aug 2009 9:23 AM
From: United States
Docpeters, as not to repeat myself, I am pasting exchange with Laturo. My point is not about some kind of Pan Africanism nor is it about modern day slavery. I am well aware of when slavery ended (except mental slavery for some). My post to Lautaro said: I would agree to the extent that socio-economic and class struggle probably plays the major portion of the roles regarding views towards hatians living in the dr. That said, I cant help but wonder how much the desire to be as caucasion as possible that many domincans have plays a role in terms of having additional feelings of contempt and resentment towards hatians, particularly dark hatians. You must admit that most uneducated Dominicans just know that they dislike or even hate hatians and that is all. They've not bothered to explore this issue further on a grandular level like we've done on this forum. That is the main reason Ive focused my comments along these lines as it is definately a worthy point of examination.
Written by: khan228, 14 Aug 2009 9:41 AM
From: United States
... so in brief, my past comments focused on the impact of slavery on how Domincans may view themselves and their western neighbors today. Does it plays a role if in addition to socio-economic and class struggles that I truly view you as different racially or just plain different than me? Of course it does. Furhter, I dont know many Dominicans that take pride in being black first or even on an equal basis as they will for being of spaniard or european decent. Be honest, it is highly frowned upon by Domincans to be black. It exists in my own family. Hatians are not without their own issues, but Ive not met one, lightskin "indio" or negro who didnt take pride in their African ancestry along with whatever else they were mixed with. Does this also lend to the contempt that a lot of dominicans feel towards their neighbors in addition to other socio-econimic and class issues..? I think yes.
From: United States
Khan-I know growing-up in the US, particularly Bos, how hard it is for you to fully understand the inner motives of Dominican racial identity. The ordeal you experienced as person of color must have left a mark, deeply influenced your mode of thought. But what you need to accept is that DR racial ideology is unrelated to the historical ramifications of US-Ame issues of slavery and racial prejudices. You must separate them. Dominicans do not share or identify with the militant attitude similar to the Black Panther, Black muslum movements or the Pan-African philosophy of Marcus Garvey. We can not relate to that. You know why? Because there has never been institutional racism in the DR and Dominicans of all races have always lived in complete harmony. We as a nation achieved undeniably the highest level of racial integration of any country in the world, there is no place on this planet quite like us.Therefore the Haitian conflict is strictly socio-economic with some racial undertones only
Written by: tainos, 14 Aug 2009 12:43 PM
From: United States
Guillermone- I have to respectfully disagree not with your statements about being different culturally from Black US Americans, but with your statement of Dominicans of all races have lived in complete harmony and the highest racial integration. While there is harmony among dominicans of different skin tones, there is a predominant preference for white skin and in some families to give favoritism to lightest of the children. Those experiences can be detrimental to a child's view of themself. You, yourself, pointed out your Caucasian features. Maybe if slavery hadn't existed or if the Caucasians were the slaves, our views of skin tones and features would be different or maybe they wouldn't matter.
From: Canada, Montreal
Good to read oupala, you should comeback in the forum we need some other soldiers with words for weapon !
Nou bezwen bon jan solda ak bon zam lapawol nan forum lan !
From: United States
This incident was a shocker to me. It was not an issue I had to deal with in the DR. I was Dominican period and it did not matter what color, race or what I look like. In fact my non-white complexion was an issue of praise and not something of shame. Now Taino you like khan have been heavily influenced by ideas of US racism and prejudice. You both need to get away from that, but you keep mixing it up. While, I do agree that in the DR “there is a predominant preference for white skin and in some families to give favoritism to lightest of the children.” This has less to do with racism, but more to do with contemporary concepts of beauty. How so? Compare it to tall vs. short, long hair vs. short, fat vs. slender, brown eyes vs. blue, wavy hair vs. straight, some guys prefer asian girls vs. european. Historically, standards of beauty change over time and if Dominicans appear to display what you may interpret as racist, it is done unconsciously and not because of racist hate-period
Written by: oupala07 , 14 Aug 2009 3:26 PM
From: Canada
Why don't you import Malaysians and Sinhalese and send all your black population to Haiti? You do that and I guarantee you that in two or three generations, your side of the island would become another Hawaii or Sri Lanka, why do you think? However, we Haitians will always stay a strongly homogeneous people who will not risk to desappear ethnically because it was ashamed of its darkness.
To conclude my friend, racism is racism whatever the mask you give it to wear. And the most racist people are the ones who are nursing a low self esteem, or an hyperinflate ego. In both case it is much more less important than the average citizen, because he is not rationnal.
From: United States
Oupala-First of all read my post well and try to understand the actual context and meaning of what I was stating, before making an irrelevant statements. You just did not get and completely lost the message I was trying to convey.
Nevertheless, You will be doing the world a GREAT service, please keep Haiti homosex... or I am sorry, I mean a homogeneous society like always. If there has been any country that has been more racist, with racist policies written in their constitution, it is Haiti. Racism is not just white vs black it is the other way around and in case you did not know it, Haitian racism is the root cause of your backward society and unless your country opens up to other cultures and races you will be doomed to oblivion. Finally, Haitians also prefer lighter skin soften negroid features. That is why you guys pay a high prices for Dominican prostitutes. Like everyone else in the world Haitians also prefer the european concept of beauty, does that make you a racist?
Written by: oupala07 , 14 Aug 2009 3:47 PM
From: Canada
Sneaky tactics hein!!! Just try to spread a smoke screen when you are caught. Well, never mind, I am used to that.
If we, haitians, have shown a much racism you are practicing now on your soil, it would be a long time since a few of your citizens would have been smoked in our country. I think Haiti is the country where the native has more to fear for his life than the foreigner. How many of them have you heard killed lately in our country? What about yours?
My friend your problem is the same as of contemporary dominicans: you find yourself in a country that is being developped and you think that you've already reached the rank of economic super power.
Don't you worry, I say, wait until the United States collapsed economically and I'll search your arrogance in a few years without being able to detect it.
From: United States
It is not a coincidence that Haiti is 95% black, It was intentional and purposely done. Haiti is a closed society and your racist policies is what lead your country to the detrimental state that it is in today. No, but you people keep blaming the white man, slavery and racism for your all your bad luck. My friend Haiti was the first free black republic of the western hemiphere and look what you have achieved. NOTHING. Come on man. Wake-up!! Pull yourself out of the boot strap and stop blaming the white man and racism. That was history, we live in a new world order. This is the 21st century. We have a black man as president in one of the most powerful countries on earth. You guys were freed from slavery 200 years ago, now you need deliverance from mental slavery, superstition and backward religous practices. Forget your resentment, stop wanting to invade the DR and go on with your or get a life, PLEASE!!!!!
Written by: khan228, 14 Aug 2009 4:37 PM
From: United States
guillimore, Again, I am as much American as I am Dominican. I live in the US but remain very close to my family in Santo Domingo. I know the difference in mind sets between Dominicans born in the US and those in the DR. Those raised in the US understand that they are both black and latino regardless of how light skin they appear to be. Most Puerto Ricans do too. Most dont deny the mirror. They feel proud for all that comes with their African and Hispanic roots. In the DR yes I agree Dominicans are Dominicans first.! But it quickly goes to class socio economic and skin tone. Dominicans as brown as 50 cent are calling themselves "indio"? Why? because they are willing to accept anything but what stares back in the mirror.. No one has answered my question yet. Why do dominicans run from being black. Why are we so ashamed of the true mix of cultures which makes us what we are. Dominicans are an alphabet soup of people and I for one am very proud of it .
Written by: khan228, 14 Aug 2009 4:43 PM
From: United States
guillermone, first you should know that institutional racism and slavery existed i the DR. How can you say that it did not..? Historical fact my friend.. you also write: It is not a coincidence that Haiti is 95% black, It was intentional and purposely done. Haiti is a closed society and your racist policies is what lead your country to the detrimental state that it is in today. Are you saying that because the country is 95% black that that is the reason why it struggles? If so, then conversely you are sayin that because there was so much race mixing between the spaniard and africans slaves that that is the reason the DR is in better shape? Do you really believe that Guillemone.? Please clarify. I'd like to hear more on that reasoning.
Written by: khan228, 14 Aug 2009 5:02 PM
From: United States
To my haitan brothers that spit flames on this subject, I want you to know that not ALL dominicans feel the same way about Hatian people your culture and country. That said, your country has many socio-economic issues and I believe flooding the DR does cause a strain on the country. No different than mexicans flooding the US borders here. I dont know the answers to fix it all but wishing for the collapse of the US and DR is not the answer. Those are strong nations that i am connected with. There are racist policies here and in the DR as well but Haiti has to take better responsibilty for making things better in Haiti. Just like Barack does here in the US and Hipolito does in the DR.. Ok Im joking about Hipolito but I hope you get my point.
From: United States Virgin Islands
@Guillermone: Thank you for defending the white man :-) . You are also correct when you say that Haiti is a closed society and is one of the reasons for being underdeveloped. All of my friends who had visited Haiti for the first time said the same thing that you pointed out. They said "Haiti needs to open up".
As far as race is concerned on the island, what I see is that Haitians in general are proud to be black. Dominicans in general want to be more aligned with the rest of Latin America and would prefer being white.
If Haiti did not gain their independence from France, they would have been like Guadeloupe or Martinique. It would have been another French Department and would have been somewhat developed. Or if Haiti got their independence in the 1960's, '70s like Jamaica, Bahamas, I believe Haiti would be at the minimum like Trinidad. Did Haiti got their independence too early? Check this out:
http://www.freewebs.com/jamesandshayneinhaiti/index.htmWritten by: Lautaro, 14 Aug 2009 7:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
kahn said: "you should know that institutional racism and slavery existed i the DR."
They existed, but never at the levels of cruelty and outright brutality seen on the US and Haiti itself, the so called Saint Domingue francais, the terror of any and every slave and/or people of african descent on the hemisphere. The USA with its Jim Crow laws and ban on interracial marriage (one drop rule), and Haiti with its ban against whites and/or foreigners from owning land. You will be very (if not impossibly) hard pressed in finding any law forbidding LEGAL citizens of haitian descent from owning land or marrying anyone they please over here. We're, as it is, caught in the middle of the crossfire between extreme aryanism (USA) and extreme noirism (Haiti).
From: United States Virgin Islands
@Lautaro: You are right as far an Haitian person being able to own land or marry a Dominican or so forth in DR. However, I believe tensions between the two groups in DR are so fragile that if say a Haitian person or gang of Haitians would kill or rape some Dominicans, it would not matter if the Haitian is legal or not, Dominicans would seek revenge and kill whatever Haitian they find... and vice versa, If anything major would happen Haitians would also go on a killing rampage. It may never happen but it would be a good thing if the island would unite or for Haiti to progress to the point where Haitians no longer would need to seek employment in DR. Tensions between Haitians and Dominicans especially on the DR side is like a timebomb waiting to explode!
Written by: Lautaro, 14 Aug 2009 8:40 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It reminds me of what the Count of Mirabeau said about the people of this island before the haitian revolution: "They are living at the foot of the Vesuvius (the volcano), they just don't know it, yet...."
From: United States
Khan-Since the birth of our country in1844 and again with the second republic 1863 there has never been institutional racism or slavery in the country with the name Dominican Republic. In fact many of our national patriots have been Dominicans of Afro-descent. We had such racial integration that two Dominican presidents were of Haitian ancestry but unfortunately, both were also the worse most bloodiest dictatorships in Dominican history. They were Ulises Heureaux (Lilis) and the notorius Rafael L. Trujillo. Lilis was born in Pto Plata from a Haitian father and mother from St Thomas and Trujillo born in San Cristobal had a half-Haitian mother, known as mamá Julia. Today in modern history we have a mulato president Leonel Fernandez Reina. So please stop saying that we hate Haitians because they are black, you are confusing the issues and misinforming the readers with a lie that you believe and are convince to be true. The only real RACIST on the island of Hispañiola are the Haitians
From: Canada, Montreal
Docpeters is a departmen owned by The "Beke" in the french caraibean is what you call developped If they see any advantages bye bye we are back in France !
From: Canada, Montreal
GUILLERMONE how much dominicans had been killed in Haiti before calling us racist ?
From: United States
Khan-Why are Haitians racist? Because of their racist policies specifically against the WHITE RACE and that hate is deeply ingrained in Haitian culture and clearly found and spelled out in black and white (no pun intended) in the constitutional policies of the Rep of Haiti. There is no reference to the black race in any political or constitutional Dominican Documents of any kind or sort, thereof. We only make reference to the separation of Haiti as a political entity and not as a nation of black people. Yet Haitians do specify color in their constitution and prohibit people of the white race from owning property and make other limitations against them. So tell me khan who is really the racist here? Please for crying out loud stop this ideological fantasy about racial hate Dominican have against the Haitian people, it is all in your head, created by your own US brain washed ideas of victimization of the black man and anyone that still uses that argument is using it as a cop out.
From: Canada, Montreal
Give your reference
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 12:05 AM
From: Canada
"You are also correct when you say that Haiti is a closed society and is one of the reasons for being underdeveloped"
Mr Docpeters,
It is obvious that you don't know a rat about Haiti its people and its history. If we were a closed society as you stated it, there wouldn't be a tiny minority of foreigners that owns more than 80% of our resources. If we were a closed society, we wouldn't have allowed muslim, Jewish, German, French, Indus and americans immigrants to settle in our country, grab all our financial resources and invest them overseas while living the country under developped for hundreds of years.
Do you know that Haiti is the only country that is not bothered by illegal immigration? It means that once you're in Haiti, we don't care how you get in the country as long as you don't bother people.
From: United States
khan-"No one has answered my question yet. Why do dominicans run from being black. Why are we so ashamed of the true mix of cultures which makes us what we are"
You have no explanation because that "shame" that you say we have about being black is your own personal interpretation; and belief. It is YOU who thinks that, not us. This is not about racial pride, that is a US Americans thing, created to help the US black overcome the pain and trauma suffered as victims of slavery, it was a way to rid feelings of inadequacy the white slave master imposed on the blacks, but that you want to force upon Dominicans which do not identify with the suffering of Americans slavery, racism and segregation. Keep those ideas in the US do not import them to the Dominican Republic. We did not suffer any of those things to make us want to chant: 'SAY IT LOUD, I'M BLACK AND I AM PROUD." You say that in the DR and we won't know what the hell you are talking about. Why because there is no need for it.
From: Canada, Montreal
Docpepers.
Ask those Lebaneese in Haiti,Ask Digicel if we are are closed society.
Would we buy some cellphones at Digicel ?
Would we allow those " Al-Khal(Lebaneese)", "Biggio (Jew) Madsen( Norway) Baker(USA) in this country ?
From: United States
@oupala07
Haiti is the only country not bothered by illegal immigration because it's barely a country.
Also, who the hell even migrates to Haiti, other than aspiring elites looking to wring out whatever they can out of the husk we call Haiti.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 12:24 AM
From: Canada
One of the reason why I spend less and less time on this web site is the lack of objectivity shown in the comments about Haiti and its people. You are throwing a pile of crap without even taken time to do a single little research. Well, I don't have to go far in order to explain to you why Haiti is still under developped.
Let me give you a litlle refresher. Right after defeating the white french army and declaring independence, the "Great and Glorious" United States, France, Spain, Germany and the South American assholes we bled to liberate, cast upon us the tightest and the cruelest embargo our young country and the world have ever witnessed.
Then, they supported and armed the Alexander Petion's mulattoes against the Negro General and first Haitian King Henry Christopher. After the defeat of our Northern King, France came back with a fleet and under the threat of 500 guns, it twisted our arms and extorted 90 millions gold francs from us.
From: United States
Khan-I don't care what you say but to me you are an outsider. To an outsider, understanding the complex racial-identify and classification of Dominicans may be confusing and odd at best, but it is an everyday reality for our mixed race nation. Imagine how hard it is for most latinos but particularly a Dominican to pick up an application and are forced to select a race-black or white. Thank God we have a category for Hispanic. Because this is what we are and proud of our multi-ethnicity. Why isolate and separate one of our races without acknowleging the others? I am proud to be Black but not white? I am proud to be white and not black? I am only proud of my Taino ancestry and forget about my African and European relatives, no my friend that can not be we are proud of all of our the races but as an one whole unit and not separately.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 12:45 AM
From: Canada
I like to hear you saying "mixed race." Since when have you found out that you Dominicans were a mixed race? Besides, don't you know that everything mixed is an inferior by product? So, for the sake of not being black, you prefer to stick to yourself the title "mixed," why don't you go tell the yankees about it, maybe they will categorize you as white the way you are so longing after.
As far as I am concerned, I lost every single bit of respect for the Dominican who is trying to "bleach" his origins: it is degrading and an obvious sign of inferiotity syndrom and identity crisis. You can go splash your skin with ashes or bathe in flour, once you get out of the shower, you won't be white. And even if you are a clear skin, you will always be fitted with a large nostril, a big lips and a round tip nose which will remind you forever of your african descent, and that there is nothing you can do about it.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 12:54 AM
From: Canada
The only blame I lay on the Dominicans of Haitian orgigins, is that they are a bunch of cowards that has never found the gut to rise and defend their heritage. They cave in before a society which falsely let them believe that they are genuine citizens of the country. When the time will come, they will be called into account for their passivity and their cowardness along with their Domincan counterpart for all the humiliation they have made us endure.
Keep insulting us, and keep lying about the past the present and even the future, for you must know that what goes around, must forcefully come around. We, Haitians, will be, one way or the other, a developped nation. It might take decades to be achieved, but most of us won't forget today's insults and when the time will come for pay back, I hope I won't hear some cowards hastily calling us brothers and saying that "we never did anything to you."
"Bay kou blye pote mak sonje"
From: United States
Oupala-Not bad for the low and inferior quality of the mixed race Haitians mulato 4% of the population to have the ability to control 80% of the wealth and 94% of the people. Your inferior by product seems to work pretty well in Haiti don't you thinK?
From: United States
oupala-What the Hell are you talking about? ARE YOU NUTS or WHAT?
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 1:53 AM
From: Canada
give yourself some distance in time and you'll find out whether I am nut or whether it's the other way around.
Everybody used to pick on the Chinese at certain moment in time. Now, that they are wealthy financially and powerful militarily, you don't hear any coward label them "moon face" anymore. Suddenly, they are not "lemon face" or " yellow danger."
Oh yes! Everybody is longing about a piece of their cheap good exporting power, and I don't hear the yankee talking about cancelling international aid, neither you can catch them talking loud with them about geopolitics dispute.
Why? Because China is the world saviour now, because if she decides not to redeem the US treasury bonds anymore, the United States will crash and sink financially due to its huge budget deficit which is more than a trillion dollars now.
So, as I said, let you the Dominicans enjoy your money and your seemingly development and we'll talk about it again in a decade and a half or less. We shall see then, who
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 2:03 AM
From: Canada
in the mean time will out perform who.
You are so lost in your desire to be a non black nation that you can't even realize that the energy shortage (black out) you're experiencing has a direct connection between the recession and its economic shortfall incidence on your country. Keep dreaming about things that will never be, and you'll find yourselves one day sliding back slowly and surely toward negative growth.
And it is not by thumping your chest neither by deviating your country's problem on the back of our haitian nationals living on your soil that you will get out of recession.
The fact is, and if you don't realize it yet, all the major countries of the developping world have slammed their market shut to other countries products and that instead of investing in yours, they will tend to gladly buy your assets at discount price the same way the Europeans, the Chinese, the Russians and the Japanese have bought America for cheap.
45 Gran for a skyline, you can't beat that.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 2:22 AM
From: Canada
45 Gran for a skyscrapper, you can't beat that. It was how much a 57 stories high building have been sold lately in the United States. How much do you think they will offer for your small boxes of concrete and glass? What you seem not to understand, and this is why your people and mine alike are still fleeing poverty and hunger by the sea.
We Haitians, our underdevelopment is quite relative. In fact, it has been fueled by political termoil in our land. Now, things are stabilizing and are settling little by little. I bet you that when the foreign troops will leave and our Diaspora will start returning back home and invest in its country, I wonder what will you do to force our peasants, that you are treating like slaves on your soil, not to go back to their land.
Yeah! The future is announcing itself really interesting indeed, I can't way to see how the self proclaimed "Tainos" will be able to get out of the economic mess into which they will be up to their neck.
From: United States Virgin Islands
@ oupala: you are right things are slowly changing in Haiti. But you have to give credit where credit is due. For the most part, the UN is also helping with security. The Haitian Diaspora is slowly returning to Haiti for vacations. I have been promoting Haiti for years and have a lot of friends especially from Europe who actually have gone to Haiti since. Moreover, ex-president Clinton is involved in the future of Haiti and he means well. He recently appointed Doctor Farmer as a special attache. If the government get more serious and at least start picking up garbage and set up flea markets for the merchants, this simple change will change the image of the country. Once again, please check out some pics:
http://www.freewebs.com/jamesandshayneinhaiti/index.htmFrom: United States
oupala
You're insane. Your characterization of Dominican's is so deluded you sound like a mental patient. You cast your complexes on others.There are some of us with "light skin" who do not have "large nostril, a big lips and a round tip nose" to remind us of anything. What reminds us is that we are clearly a mixed race nation who does not suffer from the race problem and are a great blend of different people.
Also your comment saying mixed race people are weaker than some "pure" race is disgustingly racist and sounds like some anti-miscegenation eugenicist garbage.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 10:46 AM
From: Canada
"If the government get more serious and at least start picking up garbage and set up flea markets for the merchants, this simple change will change the image of the country. Once again, please check out some pics"
How much more racism can you go plow and harvest in such a statement? As if picking up garbage and erecting public markets are the only conditions that must be set in order for a country to be developped.
Don't you worry I tell you boys, one of these days, you'll wake up and take a look Eastward, and some of you who are happily trashing our country will find it much more wishable to spend an hour in Haiti than a single minute in yours, like the old time where we where the center of attention of all the Caribbean.
You are afraid of us now because you know what we are worthy. In fact, there are not too many nations in the world apart the Egyptians, the Summerians, the Azteks and the Mayans that have accomplished what we have done in building and architectural prowess.
From: Canada, Montreal
guillermone,
We are still waiting where you see in the haitian constitution of 1987 where they refer the word black
From: United States
RIGHT ON TORO-GIVE IT TO HIM GOOD !!
Can you figure oupala out, Haitians have always been the bad guys, the agressor nation against the DR but he blames us for their misfortune, basically accuses us of racism and xenophobia. Can you believe that? I really want to know where in the world is he coming from, where did he get that. I can only explain it as delusional, I refuse to get into a debate with a person that lacks logic and twists facts to accomodate his distorted mode of thought
He is just like people who owe money to creditors, they plead for help and ask to borrow cash but refuse to pay, when payment is due. However, when you go after them to collect, all of a sudden the creditor is the bad guy, a bastard for wanting his money back. Similarly, the same is true for Dominicans, we want to be left alone, we want to keep our soveignty but when we are threaten by a nation that historically has screwed us, don't blame us for wanting to defend ourselves. We only want what is ours
From: Canada, Montreal
oupala you should add Pena gomez too
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 11:21 AM
From: Canada
when there won't be no more fund to keep digging your chest thumping subway system, when you will have not enough resources to fight the numerous hurricanes that are looming in your future, then you'll turn to generous little Haiti which always wants to help the others whether it is for their freedom or simply to give them a hand at alleviating their misery.
As far as I am concerned, and if God will be so merciful to grant me a life long enoug to witness all that, you could go rot in Hell, because in the family where I come from, we don't turn the other cheek.
And you better pray God that neither I or my friends won't reach to power in Haiti, because if it would have been the case, your ass would be fried and you would have had a lot of explanation to do in order to justify you current arrogance and racism. And I can add that if you do not respect us it is because we haitians are a bunch of lapping dogs who tend to forget what others have done to us even though the scars are fresh
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 11:54 AM
From: Canada
Thanks to remind me Incognito.
I think that our little cousins from the East must start experiencing hardship in order to understand that with the devaluation of the dollar along the decades, owning a few billions dollars economy is like being the owner of a big bag of fresh snow under a steady temperature and a covered and cloudy sky.
However, as soon as the sun rays of the recession surge between the cloud cover, that big bag of snow will not wait to melt. And that what is happening to those little fools who are not even smart enough to understand that their elite is slowly but surely selling their country assets for cheap.
All the big development projects won't benefit the masses, but a few oligarchs who are controlling what is paid and what is spent in their country.
As I said, we're not in a depression yet, but it will be very interesting indeed to see what the so called Carribean dragon is going to do when its people won't be able to sustain the heavy cost of living
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 11:55 AM
From: Canada
their governement and oligarchs thugs will cast upon them. Will they take to the sea in mass in a mass exodus in order to escape the soup kitchen?
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 12:40 PM
From: Canada
"There are some of us with "light skin" who do not have "large nostril, a big lips and a round tip nose" to remind us of anything. What reminds us is that we are clearly a mixed race nation who does not suffer from the race problem and are a great blend of different people."
"There are some of us..."
I've gotcha!! That some of us, how many of them are they in your society? a majority? I don't think so, because you just acknowledge that there are only "some of you" that are not bearing your african ancestry marks. In other words, and according to your own statement, you just acknowledge that the Dominicans constitute a nation of mostly people with african ancestry and features.
I can understand why you and your pals are so confused and are always getting their feet caught in the ropes when they try to explain and justify a string of identities they so desperately want the world to acknowledge them.
You'll wake up one day, but I won't be there to welcome you to the real world
From: United States
No, idiot, That just shows you how varied we are compared to your country meaning we were a society that was allowed to blend. That even our compatriots who are mostly SSA derived still show signs of multi-ethnic origin, unlike yourselves who have been kept unmixed and oppressed by your white and mulatto masters. That's the difference, you know other than everything, between our societies. You could "leave Haiti alone forever and it still wouldn't move up from it's state.
As for you painting Haiti as this eternal giver, yeah giver of oppression and constant invasion.
Also, you said "all those names with haitian phonetics"...are you stupid? Those are FRENCH last names. That doesn't automatically peg them as "Haitian" names. Remember your masters.
Haiti's turmoil is owed to no one else but Haiti for it's past sins.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 2:17 PM
From: Canada
EltorodeCibao,
I don't waste my time with underachievers who can't even understand what is written on paper with plain English. Usually, one or two exchanges with a blogger is enough for me in order to find out whether or not he is rationnal or not, and you my friend, you are not. In fact, you are only repeating what your emotions and your sillyness dictate to you.
People like you are time waster for me. Instead of commenting your idiotics statements, I prefer to ignore them and debate the ones among you who have something solid to tell about.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 3:04 PM
From: Canada
Guillermone,
I am not the bad guy you try to depict in vain. In fact, I am more concern about the faith of the two nations that are sharing this island than most of you are. I understand perfectly that, like my people, you the Dominicans, are a bunch of innocents that are following what your elite do or say. If it tells you to hate and hunt down the Haitians, you do just that. If it tells you that you have an indian ancestry, you will swallow that farce too. If it tells you that everything is fine with the Dominican economy, you will just nod and take its lies as the Gospel.
Well, we Haitians are different, in fact, our past and numerous deceptions have traumatized us at such a point that we have developped instinctively a "No" as an answer and a morbid scepticism toward our financial and political elite.
And if you still think that things will get better and rosy for your country due to foreign investments from the US or Europe, read that article whose link is posted below.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 3:10 PM
From: Canada
BIGGEST US BANK FAILURE THIS YEAR.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8202714.stmAnd it is just the beginning, for according to experts, there is an incoming planetary crash for October this year. Let's hope they are mistaken, if not your country will be roughed much more badly than mine.
The only reason I'd like that to happened is the fact that it would teach you a lesson of humility. Because when you start seeing numerous soup kitchen and millions of people flocking in your cities the same way it has happened in my country, then, you'll have a taste at the medicine we Haitians have been forced to swallow for more than20 years now.
Read the article and enjoy the upcoming crash.
From: United States
You're the joker obsessed with racialist images of Dominican Republic. You're also the one who called mixed race people inferior. You call THAT rational thinking? Blaming all of Haiti's woes on some foreign powers?
This isn't a debate, this is me pulling your pants down in front of everyone.
From: United States
Toro-Oupala has a very serious problem, a terrible compulsive obsessive disorder, he is simply out of whack.!! He just can't control himself. He is obsessed with making sure that Dominicans convince ourselves that they are black. It does not matter the race or how white, it you are born in the DR, then you are just as black as a Haitian. That is pretty much his argument. 2nd he is obsessed that we Dominicans did something to Haitians. That Dominicans are racist ethno-phobes. I really don't know where he got that from, he does not give examples, proof or evidence, explains what he means, what is it that Dominicans did to the Haitians thats got him so bitter? Oupala has an inexplicable rage inside, his tempature is way up to a boiling point, that if he continues it will kill him.
Oupala, I am just going to say my last few words, before I stop. You got to slow down, take a deep breath and open up tell me, what is this pent-up frustration? You are just rambling words incoherrently
From: United States
Oh by the way, Oupala-In an earlier post I mentioned a genetic study done in the DR and through DNA tests, it was determined that Dominicans carry Taino-indian genes. Dominicans knew that and suspected it all along. But people like you Oupala want us to believe otherwise. The study was conclusive and it is living proof that we are and continue to be a multi-ethnic society. Remember oupala DNA testing is what determines guilt or inoscence. it definitely convicts criminals to life in prisons or the death penalty.
Lets do DNA testing in Haiti to determine if Haitians really carry black-African blood. Haitians might really be Indians diguise as negroes. Then again they might also be white, just because they look black, does not mean they are negroes. They might be doing that to pass of as a black person. You can't be too sure, you know. Just because some Haitians look like one of the missing links does not prove anything. You got to do a DNA test to be sure.
From: Canada, Montreal
Why create confusion ? I'm Black people really care that 300 years ago I had et white grand-father?
No thanks for your advice. The Kreyol/Bossal make to much destruction in Haiti dont need your DNA bomb
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 8:39 PM
From: Canada
Before closing the chapter, let's say that from my father's side people are very clear skinned, they told me, as a child, that my grand mother's grand mother was a french. I only know however that my father was a light skin man fitted with brown eyes and the features of a real Dominican. My grand Dad was as black as a charcoal, my sister elder is as white as a canadian and that I am as dark as the avereage Haitian negro.
I have never seen in the Haitian mulatto an enemy, but I despise his arrogance and, as a school boy, I used to beat them like voodoo drum. I know what racism is because I have experienced it like every little haitian kid raised in mixed family where the parents always favor the clear skin ones. I have never understood that until I became an adult.
So to speak that I understand when someone is racist and I know what it does to people that are exposed to such insane behaviour. However, in the bottom of my heart I don't anyone is better than anyone on this planet.
From: United States Virgin Islands
@oupala: It is true that after the Haitian Revolution, Haiti was punished by European powers and the U.S. for being black. The punishment lasted until about until about the 1930's. The 1940's and 50's were a time when Haiti had good presidents and was about to have a great future until Papa Doc came into power. Then that is when things went down hill... till 2007. As we see positive events unfold in Haiti, I think that right now Haiti has a chance to progress. So, Mr. Oupala, please do not blame foreigners for Haiti's current problems. There is a point where you need to blame yourself. You cannot stay in denial forever. For example, you cannot blame Haiti's corruption problems on foreigners. And, what foreigners are you referring to. The white , Jewish, Lebanese, and mulatto Haitians are Haitians.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 9:13 PM
From: Canada
Docpeters,
I don't you have enough knowledge and understanding of our history to comment on it, so let's say that we are going to leave that chapter alone for now and that we will focus on what is best to the two people sharing the island. If my Dominicans counterpart wants to discuss it with honesty, it will be a real problem to have a civilized debate on the matter and to try to find real solution for it.
We must find a way to stop the peacefuf invasion of the Dominican land by our disenfrenchised, we must find a way to force the two governments to take their responsability toward their people asnd country. We will not be able to do that by missing each other respect.
Once again, I think I have said on this site in my early days that my best friend was a Dominican and that my very first girl friend was a beautiful black Dominican woman. So I know the people very well, they are good and very emotional people, and I find it a crime to throw them at each other throat.
Written by: oupala07 , 15 Aug 2009 10:11 PM
From: Canada
read "it will be a real pleasure" instead of "it will be a real problem"
From: United States
Oupala-Very sorry to know about the pains you went through as a child. Now I understand a little better the origins of your sentiments, and I emphasize with you, but it is best to let it go. Forget the past and look to the future. Nevertheless, let us continue to search for common grounds as a way to solve the socio-political ills our leaders have thrust upon us.
Docpeters-Great Close-Thank-you
Written by: oupala07 , 16 Aug 2009 1:55 PM
From: Canada
Thank you guillermone,
And yes, I knew racism and discrimination as a kid, and I am still experiencing and witnessing it directly or indirectly every single day of my life here in North America. However, think God I've always been stronger than it, and I have never let it bend my shoulders in front of anyone whatever it was a Negro, a White or a Yellow. Besides, I don't believe in racism, for me it is an extra egomany and egocentricity.
I do believe however in the superiority of the intellect, and if someone can prove to me that he knows much more better than I do, then I will gladly submit myself to its knowledge power while keeping the biological equality intact.
And that's what has particularly made me upset when I notice that intelligent and articulate people, I have the pleasure to aknowledge their intellectual power on this site, are reverting themselves to such a degrading and unfounded impulse of false race superiority.
Written by: oupala07 , 16 Aug 2009 2:07 PM
From: Canada
I think Haitians and Dominicans, while staying independent from each others, should stick together and work to enhance the lives of their people. We can't afford to let a few hatemongers sow the seeds of discord among us. History has proved that two nations whose history is so closely intertwined, can't keep ignoring each other.
I understand perfectly the emotions and the negative impulse on the Dominican population psyche when it notices that virtual invasion of their country by our peasants. I have to admit, I wouldn't be particularly happy if I had to face the same problem in Haiti from any other nation, most of all, if those immigrants are as ill prepared and educated like our peasants.
However, it,s not by preaching violence or to push the population against them that the problem will be solved.
To solve it, the people must take to the streets in an orderly fashion and let their government understand black on white that the invasion must stop. And the best way to stop it
Written by: oupala07 , 16 Aug 2009 2:17 PM
From: Canada
is to stick heavy and hefty fine on the passers and on the enterprises that are profiting from that illegal trade. Then, your government must not hesitate to raise the tone on the Haitian one in order to force it to tackle the problem. In fact, the main reason why our peasants are abandoning their land and going to flock in the cities and in your country, is because my government does not do shit to help them valorized their land. The peasants do not have access to fertilizers, no major irrigation work has been done for decades, no serious reforestation programs have ever been implemented, in other words, they've been left to fend for themselves, and because the best way out for them is to go to the Dominican Republic then, they prefer to sell their farm animals and pay a passer for the journey in the so call promise land.
Fo, if we don't force our governments to seek and find a permanent solution to this problem, another Trujillo like massacre coud be simming under our nose.
Written by: oupala07 , 16 Aug 2009 2:20 PM
From: Canada
I don't think it will be a good thing for your country reputation even though the hypocrit Unitied Nations wouldn't have done a rat to prevent it the same way they hadn't done anything to keep the Hutus from eliminating 700 000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Besides, I don't think we Haitians would have appreciated it to see our brethren being slaughtered right under our own eyes.
From: United States
Well said oupala. Despite our confrontation you seem much less heated now and this sort of thinking is how we can best solve the issues we mutually face today, while independently solving our country's private issues.
Written by: khan228, 17 Aug 2009 6:24 PM
From: United States
@guillermone, You are too much. In a nutshell, over several posts you say I will never undertand a DR born Dominican's mind-set regarding being latino and that I am trying to force some kind of American black and proud ideaology into this discussion. Ive never said that. I simply have the question which still has not been answered. Why do Dominicans EXCLUDE their african ancestory when speaking of thier identity. It is the only part of our make up that routinely gets excluded.. WHY? We all know, Dominicans have the BURNINING DESIRE to be white and NOT black. It must be fustrating when babies are born w/light or white skin but have negro features. Someone wrote earlier that it is just what dominicans think of as the standard of beauty. Blew me away. What about dark skin? Why is that not at least PART of the standard..? Generations of brainwashing!! Be proud to be Dominican, Latino, African, Arawak & whatever. Why drop "AFRICAN" from the equation like the damn plague?
Written by: khan228, 17 Aug 2009 6:38 PM
From: United States
I was also called an "outsider" as well and a foreinger and referred to as Mr. Im black and Im prould.... Whatever.. Perhaps.... In any event, I will be sure to share that with my family next time I visit them in the DR. Oh and I will also let all of my Dominican friends and relatives living or born in US know that people in the DR consider us not part of the familia... These people would call you crazy because of the way we celebrate dominican culture here....yes here in the US.. Anyway, personally my thinking has been shaped by both DR and African American cultures that is why I dont say anything with malicious intent on the board like that... I would rather speak based on my honest observation and experience. I know what I am and I am prould of all of it. I am saddend when others with the same or similar background cant accept ALL.... yes ALL... Again... ALLLLLLL of what make us dominican. Instead we want to exclude BLACK. Just being honest..
From: United States
Khan-I am glad you returned so we can further discuss the question, which you say has not been answered, though I believed it was done many posts ago. I will rephrase my response and maybe this time you’ll understand. The concept of blackness which you want Dominicans to share and celebrate is strictly a US American idea bought about as a consequence of US slavery, segregation, institutional discrimination or just plain racist hate. This ideology was created to establish a sense of brotherhood and solidarity among Ame blacks. However, since the birth of the Republic, Dominicans never experienced anywhere near such pain and hurt that the US blacks suffered due to race. Therefore you can not expect Dominicans to separate or isolate their blackness and boast African pride, which is something very much, as you say "shaped by African Ame culture." Just because they do not boast or accentuate that part of their identity does not mean that they deny that portion of their racial make-up.
From: United States
But what is true is that our concept of race is different from yours and is rather complex and unless you are born and raised the DR is hard for you to fully grasp it. It's not the same or sufficient to go on vacation to DR every so often to understand our racial identity, you must live it, in this sense it makes you an outsider. But I will elaborate. If Dominicans down play Negroid characteristics in the outer appearance it is strictly due to reasons of esthetics and not because we refuse to accept the black component of our racial make-up. Let me give you an example: In China, India, and Japan including Thailand, very white pale skin symbolizes and defines the contemporary but temporary ideals of beauty. In contrast, the fair skin Europeans regularly sunbathe, strive to obtain the darkest tan possible and will do whatever it takes to darken their skin. These behaviors do not represent in any way, shape or form that they refuse to be Asians or that Europeans deny their Caucasian race
From: United States
In like manner Dominicans, only emulate the present day European definition of beauty because that is what society dictates and is further motivated by the persuasive power of millions in advertising and marketing dollars at work and not because we are ashamed of our African ancestry. But you khan as a consequence of your cultural misinterpretation and as the son of an Afro-American mother, sees it as a new level of discrimination, self-denial and self-hate. But I firmly argue that it is far from the truth, it is just simply a very successful ploy, an effective mechanism used by the health and beauty companies to rake in millions in profits.
From: United States
Let me give you another example of cultural misinterpretation by US born citizens. In the Dom Rep as well as in some of the asian countries, it is customary and culturally acceptable for mothers of new a born baby to kiss their own child on the genitalia as a sign of affection. It is such a normal thing to do that it is inoscently and comfortably done in public view for others to easily see. Unfortunately, these parents were observed by strangers who were horrified, but with good intentions reported it to authorities. Like you, these Ame did not know or understood the practice and cultural traditions of another country, but neither did the criminal justice system. Ultimately, these mothers were arrested and accused of a serious felony. Charges were brought against them and today these mothers have a criminal record, erroneously labeled as child molestors, accused of sexual abuse on a minor and as sexual predators. Unless you are a Dominican, it is hard for an outsider to understand
Written by: khan228, 18 Aug 2009 11:36 AM
From: United States
G- I dont misunderstand u. What u dont understand is yes slavery in the US was arguably more brutal than in the DR. The tenants, psychology and intitutional philosophy to ctrl another human and his offspring for generations were similar everywhere. Ur ancestor's God & image of God was replaced with (white) Jesus. Families separated sold n traded like chatel property. Men demasculated, women forced to have slavemasters offspring. Generations of this and more result in a people who speak softly and not COMPLETELY of their history. But yet these people speak PROUDLY? Then speak proudly of ALL of it. My Papa was raised in the DR.. He came to the US in his late 20's. He knows he is latino and black b/c he knows his history. He knows the skin dillema that dominicans face and made certain we knew. Im proud to be Latino n African American. I wont let anyone take any of it from me. Not even the system of slavery that intened for me to think about myself like most dominicans do today.
From: United States
Khan-I am talking about the Dom Rep after 1844 and 1865 and you are talking about what happened before that. Neverthess, what occured previously may be relevent to the present day racial psychology of Dominicans, but that is a moot point. In spite of that the DR compared to Haiti was underpopulated and impoverished. The slaves and white Spaniards were both poor and interdependent on each other for survival. The DR had a less prosperous cattle-ranch economy versus plantations of Haiti. This promoted an amiable relationship between them and their slaves masters on the east. They were more like indebtured servants, then anything else, very different from the kind of brutal slavery the French had against the Haitian slaves on the western side. This is one of the main reasons why the slaves on San Domingo (the name before the republic of 1844) neither joined in the struggles for Haitians freedom, nor did they identify with that cause, but instead preferred to remain loyal to their masters.
From: United States
Khan-The historical dynamics of Haiti which bought about a slave revolt is dramatically different to the dynamics of the San Domingue/Spanish Haiti. But what you want to do is provide the same blanket response to all the countries which experienced slavery. You need to accept that one size does not fit all. In this case your "Black Pride" ideology does not apply to the DR as you keep insisting. You are using a lingo that is similar to those used by the notorious long gone Malcolm X, the Black Muslims and other similar US Black Militant groups. If your father adopted that philosophy absorbed a new identity as a result of his life in the US that is his prerogative and that is fine on an individual basis, but do not force it upon all Dominicans that are very comfortable with their very own and unique kind of multi-ethnic identity.
Written by: khan228, 18 Aug 2009 3:39 PM
From: United States
Aye dios mios!! guillermone, I give my friend. Ok ok. Dominicans are all white spaniards and or Taino and the dates you mention does make a hill a beans difference because it automatically changes the ethnic makeup of people in the DR. Dominicanos have the right to be proud of everything non African if they wish and no it has nothing to do with the white washing impact of slavery regarding dominicans view of themselves. Every other post slavery culture suffers from that thinking except in the DR. But I wont give on this. Being latino black n proud doesnt make me malcom x. I love the vast racial complexites of my people, even if they dont. The difference between us is that I wont exclude any of it. Not the euro, spanish, african, taino or human part. To do so would be to reject those came before me. Be 100% dominican whatever that is to you. Just know you are human first and the original postings justifiied in-humane acts. However you mix that up, it still comes out wrong.
Written by: khan228, 18 Aug 2009 3:44 PM
From: United States
Amen..?
Written by: tainos, 18 Aug 2009 3:49 PM
From: United States
Khan -"Black behind the Ears" goes into the much of the history Guillermone describes. I too was puzzled by the descriptions of European features and light skin being prefered until I read this book. I picked the name Tainos because I did not want to have my opinions outright disregarded because I am a caucasian born american who married Dominican born moreno. I have two beautiful children who I want to be proud of their DR and American heritage.
Written by: tainos, 18 Aug 2009 3:50 PM
From: United States
cont - I have told both of my children to be thankful of their skin color because it protects them from the sun and is beautiful. I know my son and daughter are both proud of the way they look. My daughter hair is really curly and I told her how I wanted curly hair as a child. Besides that most people compliment on how beautiful her hair is, so I am surprised at how many DR women want straight but it could also be that all women want what they dont have. Like I wanted curly hair. The issue of race is getting more complicated and has always been for Dominicans. I asked my son how do you identify yourself and he replied a Dominican. Then I ask him how would you describe your race and he is puzzled not because he doesn't want to be black but because he doesn't want to pick. For him, picking would be a denial of his mother or his father.
Written by: khan228, 18 Aug 2009 5:05 PM
From: United States
Thanks Tainos - I will check the book out.. You wrote: Then I ask him how would you describe your race and he is puzzled not because he doesn't want to be black but because he doesn't want to pick. For him, picking would be a denial of his mother or his father. I think that dillema exists for multi-cultural societies.. Even to a certain degree among african americans.. In fact African Americans are a VERY multi-racial by default. I applaud your open mindedness and at least you seem to want to have your children embrace all of what they are. They are multi-racial. In that make up are many things, each with its own rich history, collectively and unique. Help your kids to see that black isnt something to be ashamed of as part of that equation. Teach them from guillermone's perspective, mine and yours for balance. If it were not for ALL of their ancestors together, they would not exist. There is no choice in that. It simply is....
Written by: tainos, 18 Aug 2009 5:29 PM
From: United States
Khan - I think it is important for us to ask the questions about race that you have been asking. A lot of what we do we aren't even aware of it unless we reflect on it, so applaud you for asking. I do think we would have different beauty ideals if slave roles were reversed or didn't exist.
From: United States
Taino-Thank-U very much for your imput. You summarized in two sentences in a very clear, precise and simple manner, exactly what I have been trying to explain and convey to Khan. But some how my attempts were to no avail, every time I tried, the meaning was lost in the "translation." Khan always came back with the same argument, the exact opposite of what I previously said. I think that maybe my message was not effectively communicated because I believe we were both too much into who wins the debate. But the example you gave of your children was WOW.. so incredibly and unabelievably accurate, precisely what every Dominican goes through. I identified with them instantly and you understood exactly where your kids were coming from. Unfortunately, Khan only understands the black part of his identity and though he makes a valid point, he fails to give credit, recognize and acknowledge the validity of a white-Euro ancestry that we Dominicans so openly accept without rejecting all the others.
From: United States
And if Dominicans act like they prefer white and reject black, it is not done consciously and like you said, "lot of what we do we aren't even aware of it unless we reflect on it," I could not agree with you more.
Except that now thanks to you Taino, with that fresh new perspective which you provided and based on Khan's most recent response, I believe he finally got the gist of it. Unfortunately, I think it is all over now and seems like the issue is pretty much clarified. I HOPE.
Anyway, It has been a great debate and I thank everyone who participated. Khan eventhough I did not fully agree with your perspective, I do understand why you hold on to those beliefs and values, I respect you for that and I admire the solid Dominican/American identity that you cherish and I congratulate you and your parents as well for inculcating such a strong sense of self-worth and pride, yet humble at the same time.
Written by: khan228, 19 Aug 2009 10:38 AM
From: United States
guillermone, What can I say.. I like your style but you and I are still saying different thing. I appears you will not accept that I am NOT simply looking at this equation SOLEY from a black perspective no matter how many times I say that. I am indeed looking at it from a multicultural and multi racial perpsecitve. You keep missing that point. Taino's comment echos my VERY point.. Taino says: Khan - I think it is important for us to ask the questions about race that you have been asking. A lot of what we do we aren't even aware of it unless we reflect on it, so applaud you for asking. I do think we would have different beauty ideals if slave roles were reversed or didn't exist That said, he acknowledges that slavery did have a role in shaping dominicans view of beauty so much so that is an unconcious selection. Most posts from others have been to justify it not as an out-growth of slavery as I suggested but rather by making me and outsider or Mr. black power malculm x.
Written by: khan228, 19 Aug 2009 10:59 AM
From: United States
g - We may be saying the same thing. Just differently. Lets say I come from a post slavery culture where we think asian and/or euro features are the standard for beauty and I am a mix PLUS african, which is the foundation stock for my very existence there, and the majority of people in my culture only acknowledges asian and caucaisian BUT NOT AFRICAN whether conciously or not, that denial would not exist if the roles of slavery were reversed and the africans were the slave masters. Dominicans as many post slavery cultures live with this psychological condition BUT what exaserbates the issue is when many dominican people look in the mirror,they are looking at a brown or light skin person with NEGRO features yet they ignore w/contempt at times what the mirror and the world sees. Hey, Pedro Martinez is a black man in every part of the world except his home country. Im certain Pedro, having been exposed outside of the DR would agree as my Papa does that he is Latino, DOM and Negro.
From: United States
I don't believe, at least I hope not, that the likes of a Pedro Martinez, Sam Sosa, Al Soriano, Dave Ortiz call themselves indio is ludicris. They are Dominicans, Latin and are definitely and absolutely black. There is nothing to discuss or debate. If they refuse to accept and admit an undeniable negro ancestry then shame on them. In this case, I agree with U 100% and In this particular situation is exactly where your argument is positively applicable and I understand where U are coming from. But I am not talking about them, cases like that of unmix black Dominicans or Dominicans of a predominately negro background, who deny or refuse to acknowledge or down play an afro-ancestry may only represent a low percentage of the population which is about 20%. The vast majority of Dominicans have a multiracial background and who I base my argument. I am talking about Dominicans where within the same family, members are blonde blue eye, Mulato or like me, hard to tell or can't tell what race
From: United States
"I do think we would have different beauty ideals if slave roles were reversed or didn't exist. That said, he acknowledges that slavery did have a role in shaping dominicans view of beauty so much so that is an unconcious selection." That maybe true, slavery might have helped shape our concept of beauty, particularly for those Dominicans who are obviously black but fail to accept it.
But here is where I sway away from that argument. If slavery is truely responsible as you say for our present day concept of beauty, then explain to me who or what shaped the concept of beauty for the Asians? Remember except for Indians and Pakistani, Asians are not caucasians, they are members of the mongoloid race and were never submitted to slavery by white europeans, but they believe that to have very pale-white skin is the ideal sign of beauty. They spend billions of dollars on skin whitening creams, just to make their already light complexion, even lighter then what they already have.
From: United States
I am more inclined to accept the argument Taino made on a recent post that people simply want the opposite of what they have and not necesarily a consequence of shame or self-denial. It just makes more sense to me. Taino said: "So I am surprised at how many DR women want straight but it could also be that all women want what they dont have. Like I wanted curly hair."
When I lived in Boston, I remember how all the WASP girls were always drooling over me as the hot Latino. Man, I was one of the most popular guys around. The white American boys who were taller and probably better looking then me were not even as popular. Yet, when I came to Miami and lived among the Hispanics, the girls could care less. It was the first time in my life, I actually had a hard time getting a date with the girl of my choice. You know why, I was just another Latino guy among the bunch. They could have the pick of the crop. I was not different or any special from anyone else, yet blonde guys were in demand.
Written by: khan228, 19 Aug 2009 2:43 PM
From: United States
G - Ahh... so we ARE getting closer to a meeting of the minds.. Ok, lets talk asians. I would contend that color envy issues with asians exists to a MUCH lesser degree than it does with many latinos and even African Americans to a degree. In fact they are typically a very close community and most non asians do not welcome interracial marrying. That said, there was and still is a global campaign which perpetuates the stigma that light is good but white is even better and they were not immuned to it either. I would contend that western and european media in the ways of tv and magazines etc contantly blitzes these messages therefore a certain population of them will eventually buy into it as well. The along comes the whitening agents. "You too can look like the stars" etc.. messages come with it.. Not everyone has their antennea up to be able to see the media messages for what they are behind the scences.
Written by: khan228, 19 Aug 2009 2:55 PM
From: United States
cont.. Now at the end of the day if I convince you that you are not right unless you are light or white then guess who just got rich pimping bleaching creme from that global BS propaganda.. African americans fall into that as well with hair pressing agents etc, curl and relaxer kits for men and women.. and yes lightning cremes.. Just look at Michael Jackson (God rest his soul). There is a man who looked upon his own image with contempt. He is an expample of what someone with money could do who has an acute sense of self loathing. Love his music but Mike could never be white enough to satisfy himself. In summary, we allow ourselves to be conditioned and shaped by those who have the power to shape us... I bet this dillema in N. Korea only exists on the equivilent scale of a rats nostril... Bet on it...
Written by: khan228, 19 Aug 2009 3:08 PM
From: United States
G... You wrote: I was just another Latino guy among the bunch. They could have the pick of the crop. I was not different or any special from anyone else, yet blonde guys were in demand" Consider this.. I know Boston.. In fact I went to an all white school in the subburbs of Boston... So I know what you are talking about because I was that guy too.. To add to it I also was a lettered multi sport athlete which made me even more popular but dont be fooled.. There are always caucasion chicks would do you because you are different but most will never bring you home to present to the family nor will they openly flaunt the relationship and most families would object to their daughter dating a latino dude...even worse someone like me... a black Latino dude.... If you know Boston, then you know that. Try to be the most popular latino guy in South Boston and see what happens... Not trying to be crude but I think you know..
From: United States
Khan-You know what everything you say is true up to a certain extent, except that most of everything you state does not apply to me. But I will get to that later. The point I was trying to make about the white girls wanting to date me, was to support what Taino had previously said about how people want what they don't have, but again you went off to the far left to justify your theory. Anyway whether or not the girl would take me home or admit in public that they would go out with a non-white guy is besides the point. People usually prefer what they don't have, but some people take it to far extreme like is the case of Mike Jackson. Anyway, the Hisp female in Miami that preferred the blonde guys did not act that way because of racism as you imply, but rather because a Nordic looking guys is a scarced commodity, thus more attractive and hence of greater demand. I experienced the same thing with black Ame girls when I spent time Washtn, DC to them I looked better then the black guys.
From: United States
conti-But only because there were no Spanish boys around and not because of self-hate.To them, I just looked like something exotic, not commonly seen in an around Washington, DC a type of person that like gold is scarced and highly desireable and as such the demand goes up. That is the reason.
Have you not heard about a basic principle in economics, supply and demand. shorter the supply, greater is the demand and higher is the price.
From: United States
Anyway getting back to what applies to me. I have one brother and two sisters, except for me all raised in Boston. My brother married a Swedish American girl from New Hamphire, my sister married a Jewish-American of German descent and my other sister married an East Boston Italian American. All of the celebrations were done publicly and in the open. No we did not have to hide for fear of persecution. And definitely, the KKK never showed up to any of the weddings to protest and burn a cross in front of church or temple steps. I was the only one who married a native Dominican and that was because I had a green card. (LOL) only joking, I hope.
From: United States
Anyway, in your previous posts you said that slavery helped shaped the concept of beauty. When I bought out the argument that NO-Asians also prefer to be white and they were not under slavery, but then you changed your argument and said: it "is a global campaign which perpetuates the stigma that light is good but white is even better and they were not immuned to it either." Again, I disagree.
Then if there is a global campaign as you say to perpetuate that stigma, explain to me why
the fair skin Europeans regularly sunbathe, strive to obtain the darkest tan possible and will do whatever it takes to darken their skin. Because of slavery or because of a worldwide campaign to perpetuate the stigma? Which of the two arguments are you going to use to support your theory?
Khan, I really want to hear your response on this one. I can't wait!!!
Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 9:54 AM
From: United States
G- You wrote: "Then if there is a global campaign as you say to perpetuate that stigma, explain to me why the fair skin Europeans regularly sunbathe, strive to obtain the darkest tan possible and will do whatever it takes to darken their skin. Because of slavery or because of a worldwide campaign to perpetuate the stigma? Which of the two arguments are you going to use to support your theory". That one is simple. Both... White people think having a tan is cool. Its that simple. Trust me, they don’t want to be black or latino, they want to be white with all of its privaliges all the time. I’d like to respectfully address your family. You mentinoned you appeared white on the surface. I would venture to guess your siblings appear the same way or very close. That being the case, them marrying caucasion people is not a stretch for either side. To the on looker it simply appears like 2 white people are together as a couple, that’s all.
Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 10:10 AM
From: United States
..Cont.. G -You seem to balk at my discussion regarding global propaganda and media's negative perpetuation of black people. Do you know what a Golliwog doll is..? Do you know they were distributed to children all over the world with racist media to go with them including Africa. Do you know in some parts of Africa black people actually have parades and they celebrate this rediculous portrayal of my people..? This is just one example... All Im saying is that you should never think that this does not exist... and that the psychology of choosing light over dark is as simple as wanting what you dont have..? Based on your theory, then every white person should be killing each other to get with a black man or woman.. In fact, the blackest they can find.. Your theory is flawed in that you are suggesting that attrraction only works one way.. which is towards the light or white.. Anyhow, please read this sir.. and lets chat some more..
http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/golliwog/Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 10:44 AM
From: United States
..cont.. Lets not forget the black doll experiment from the 40's.. You might argue that things have changed... Hmmm Well the experiment was re-created recently and discussed on ABC news. No person can tell me that black children too are just simply attracted to people that simply look different than them as you suggest virtually every time... We are talking children here. White children do not select nor are they attracted to white dolls in the way you suggest.. They choose white dolls 99% of the time... With any complexed issue, ususally the cause is somewhere at the root... Just like when a tree rots.. It ususally rots from the roots.. This is the skin dillema issue at its very root sir.. Please read.. and lets chat some more..
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2553348&page=1Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 1:46 PM
From: United States
I would also like to submit this link which has photos and examins the celebration of the golliwog doll in Holland and its origins. It is a MASSIVE celebration. People around the world have expressed outrage and they temporarily changed the color of the character to rainbow.... When the doll did not sell as well in Holland, the country re-introduced the steryotypical one of my people and did so with great fanfare. Mind you these people have parades and dress up in black face etc.. They say they are not being offensive..
Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 1:48 PM
From: United States
Btw, if you are a person of color, you will be called by the name of this beloved character on the street. Did I mention the personality of the character is mischieveious, steals, lies, is lazy, is not all human, they all look alike and certainly cannot be trusted.. There is another character that is frequently introduced who happens to be white. Typically it is him that puts an end to the Golliwogs mischievious adventures and saves the day with the help of little white children everywhere.. Is this still my imagination..? or a product of my living in the US in general or perhaps its because Im from Boston..? I think not.. Again.. this is just one example of conditioning the mind against images of black people.. Gotta luv these pics...
http://kaganof.com/kagablog/category/contributors/ruby-savageWritten by: Lautaro, 20 Aug 2009 2:02 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'm sorry to tell you this, but you'll have to be incredibly naive if you expected the world to become politically correct all of a sudden as if by magic, just because the US elected a "black" (by one drop standards) president. And even the US is not completely politically correct, if one is to take into account the many times that muslims have been the subject of mockery on their political newspaper cartoons. I'm not applauding this behavior on the part of the europeans, but I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that to change that way of thinking will take time, indeed. Miracles do indeed exist, but they don't happen to occur that often.
Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 4:20 PM
From: United States
Lauturo, My comments were directed at guillermone's question to me. My answer was designed to simply support my previous claims to him. You would have to read many of our recent posts to bring yourself up to speed. But I would like to comment on your one drop comment.. Obama is a black man. He looks in the mirror and sees black, not indo or this or that. While he recognizes he is mixed, he still knows what it is to be black. His wife, black and yes she is mixed. His children black and yes they are mixed too.. Obama says that he is african american. In fact he is by definition an African American. His father African, his mother American (white). His make up is the same as any other African Amerian that you would call black. Like Dominicans African Americans are mixed race of people by default. What you dont understand that black is both a color and a cultural identification. Why people want to minimize what that man is to this country and the world is beyond me.
Written by: khan228, 20 Aug 2009 4:23 PM
From: United States
... cont.. Your one drop comments imply that I am not black nor are any of my African American friends or family... There are no black pure bloods here in the US.. None sir..
Written by: Lautaro, 20 Aug 2009 4:38 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What I'm trying to imply is that neither your concept of blackness nor mines is absolute, that what defines a black person in your US american psyche is not the same that what defines it in my (and guillermones) latin american and dominican one, and as such, you'll always clash with us or with any other latin american on this issue, because you can't expect us to assume your thinking nor we can expect you to assume ours. In short, what I'm trying to say is that you US americans (of whatever extraction) have to stop imposing your concepts of reality to the rest of the world, and we, the rest of the world, have to stop trying to impose our ideas on you. Live and let live (or live and let die, if you prefer the catchy 007 title), that's all we're asking. An end to cultural imperialism.
From: United States
Khan-Look admit it. You are trying to use arguments to support a contradiction, that though valid in some situations, totally invalid in others. I told you once before, your 1 size argument does not fit all. It only applies to a certain segment of Dominicans, those who are unquestionably and undeniably black but refuse to admit it. But even I would overlook and excuse them, due the very unique historical close knit relationship which existed between the slaves and white masters on our side of the island. Slaves were treated like family in spite of racial differences, a fact only true on the east, not west and in no place else in the world where slavery existed. But I know this is hard for you to grasp and nevermind accept. That is why your argument is not applicable. In addition, I already told U, that my racial make-up though predominately caucasian, I am too dark to qualify for white and too light to be black. I am a classic and perfect example of why your argument is flawed.
From: United States
OK, Khan before you stated that it is wrong for people of color to prefer caucasian traits and and wrong for them not to want to be black and to you that is wrong, right?
But for white people it is cool for them to want to be dark???? Alright, yet for you, it is not OK for Dominicans and Asians to prefer to be a lighter complexion. Talk about a contradiction and talk about double standards.
For you it is OK for White people to want to be what they are not, to you that is OK, but not OK for Asians and Dominicans to be what they are not. Man you need to make up your mind. It sounds to me like prejudice in favor of the White man. You clearly stated that for the white man it was cool to be a person of color. Why is that not acceptable or "COOL for people of color to prefer to be lighter. It is not going to change their race or make them any more or any less then when a white person gets a tan. Whites will stay caucasian, just like an Asian will remain mongoloid and Dominicans mix.
From: United States
"There are no black pure bloods here in the US.. None sir.."
I am sorry but I do not concur. Let me tell you something, I have seen plenty that look like they just got off a slave ship.
From: United States
"Obama is a black man"
I am not going to argue with your and Obama's US definition of blackness, I understand it and accept it point blank. Do you know why, because he comes from a country that has a culture and a history that supports that definition.
From: United States
Khan we are going around in circles you keep talking and presenting me with documentation and info that is valid and supports your deep rooted US ideas of race, all of the stuff you say is true, but only true within the context of US and European Racism. I am sorry it does not answer, support or really explains the ideosycracies of why Dominicans are the way they are. I gave you the explanation and told you what it was all about, so that you can understand us, but you continue to refuse and insists that it is our own individual feelings of inadequacy and self-shame to recognize the black portion of our racial make-up. You see Khan, this is what you need to know, when a Dominican says that his color is "indio" he is automatically admitting to be a person of color, but does not admit to be black, not because he denies his race, but because on the island of Hispañiola to admit to be black is to admit to be Haitian. This is what Dominicans mean, they deny a nationality and not a race.
From: United States
This is the only way Dominicans know how to distinguish themselves from what traditionally has been their enemy. Please Khan don't continue with the argument of some "global campaign" to discredit the "blackman" and "perpetuate that stigma" regardless of whether true or not it does not apply to the Dominican Republic. I am talking specifically about Dominican racial identity don't try to bring up any other issues that is not specifically relevant to our island. Anything out side of that scope and our tiny republic does not apply. What we have is unique to us and is our very own. The only other country in the world with similar concepts as ours might be Brazil and even that can be argued. So if you have material to support your thesis it would need to come from that country. But then again Brazil is so Big and complex and the culture is Portugese, neither they did not have a slave revolt nor a conflict with a neighboring country, I would be leary to use Brazil in a comparative analysis
From: United States
just as I am leary to use the US or any other European country in a comparative analysis, that does not have common historical grounds to tie us together. Which is exactly what you have done from the start. And when a Dominican uses the term "soy de color indio" he is using it as an adjective to describe the varied brown hues in the Dominican color spectrum. A Dominican does not say that to imply or boast to be Taino and to negate the black part of his ancestry. He is not saying "soy indio de raza" or "soy de raza india", but rather "soy de color indio" a simple method used as a descriptive term only and valid or not as a way to separate and identify themselves as different from the Haitians. Bottom line: That is the reason, that is the motive and that is the purpose. Nothing else. CAPICHE!!!! Man I hope you got it this time. BASTA YA, If you don't want to understand, "Que la virgen de la Altagracia" have mercy on you
Written by: khan228, 21 Aug 2009 11:41 AM
From: United States
BASTA YA..?!! Wow… Rather than go around and around and have me pray to the virgin in order to understand you, at this point I think it best to simply agree to disagree. I will say this… I have no enemies.. Certainly not Hatians.. If I did, I would pray for them too… Just my 2 cents..
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Aug 2009 3:23 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
From: United States Virgin Islands
@oupala: This might be of interest to you. I was in Haiti not too long ago and yes indeed the security has improved. Security has improved dramatically in Haiti, where just a few years ago large areas were controlled by heavily armed gangs that killed, kidnapped and raped with impunity, UN police said on Friday. The crime rate in the impoverished Caribbean nation has dropped thanks to a police force that is bigger, more professional and better coordinated with UN military and police personnel, UN police spokesman Fred Blaise said. "The police are very visible in the streets and that gives a sense of confidence to the people." Improving security is crucial to Haiti's efforts to encourage international investment, tourism and family visits by members of the Haitian diaspora. Security is one of the preconditions to have investments and job creation, and we are pleased with the job done by the police...
Full article:
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/article.php?news_id=18376Written by: oupala07 , 25 Aug 2009 9:32 PM
From: Canada
Thanks for the article Docpeters,
However, I had also the privilege to read it, it is excellent and paint a bright future indeed for the country, but let' say that the turning point, in that battle against insécurity, is the fact that the ex military have been let down by the elite who stops hiring them for monkey business, furthermore they are aging, and being given the Americans are dealing presently with a very obedient president, then, nobody needs them anymore.
The ones that were inserted indide the national police, and who were tremendously corrupted have been overwhelmed by the new promotions of more educated and well trained fellows (the days of the police state is over).
That is the reason why with the combination of our actual 10 000 members force and the excellent training they receive, we're not far from becoming back the safest country in the world for anyone.
Thank God indeed also that the Americans have stopped sending us backk our criminal nationals on their soil
Written by: oupala07 , 25 Aug 2009 9:56 PM
From: Canada
Because they were a big part of the insecurity, but those new young fellows are everywhere and are standing guard. Unfortunately, we need more than 50 000 of them if we really want to have the kind of security that favors business. Our country is fitted with major ports cities most of them, if rebuilt and developped, can lay a bid to be the capital of the country, so, they need a major police force to keep the peace in their greater area. There are a mere 10 000 officers for the whole island of montreal, in P-au-P only we must make sure that more than 3 millions rats do not kill themselves. No, they can't keep the peace on the whole country, but with a good increase of that police force number we'll get there.
Written by: Lautaro, 25 Aug 2009 11:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
For one thing, I'd love it if Le Cap, Port de Paix and Mole St. Nicholas were to recover their former splendour, specially the last one, with its access to the Windward Passage, it's a golden opportunity for profit waiting to be exploited.
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Another Dominican murdered by the savages...
Fortunately, the authorities are not that stupid and they were quick to realize the new tendency which is to commit crime, lay the blame on haitians and thereafter organize their own progrom. It happened when one of ours got coldly beheaded for a crime he did not commit. It has happened before that, is happening now and will continue in the future. And it is not the authorities that will be able to stop these monsters. It's time for our peasants to understand that the best thing for them is to go back to their land in Haiti and try to make a living out of it.
There is hope.
Crawl back in your hole before I call immigration. LOL.
I agree with guillermone and his very lucid and informational post which is to be read.
The "illegal Haitians" are crowding and elbowing themselves on the Dominican food table, and also bringing their violence and superstitions with them. They are tolerated but not welcome by the Dominican campesinos as they bring nothing to the table, except more misery.
Haitians do not have a God given right to trespass and establish residence wherever they please in DR, just because we are such a hospitable and charitable nation, on top of that they are fueling xenophobic sentiment, never before witnessed in the DR.
The fuse to the powder keg will be lit one of these days, and then all hell will break loose.
What the Haitian leaders need to do is to make an annoucement that they condem these vilolent actions carried out by a few bad eggs.
But Haitian leaders don't seem to give a dam so let justice be served but legally.
I am pretty sure that we'll talk about this again in a few decades. I can bet you all will be suffering of amnesia, because one way or the other, we will not only catch you, but we will overtake you economically and socially. Just keep watching and remembering, for if most of us are fitted with a wacked dog character, a lot of my fellow citizens however, won't forget, and they are, like most of you do your kids, paying a very high attention at passing those cowardly moments of yours to the next generations in order for them to have, one way or the other, their pay back when the time is right.
Your mob like reaction proves once more that you belong to a retarded society who think that it is still living in colonial times under the Spanish feodal rules.
Wake up fools! We're living in a world of law enforcement and not in one ruled by idiot mobsters and barbarian lynchers.
If I had a quarter for every murder and law broken by Dominicans in the Dominican Republic I wouldn't have to work for the rest of my life and feed the impoverished. But you all need the "Odderguy".
This is not a comment on what the article was about but how you can blame a whole race for your ills is beyond comprehension.
The Haitian diaspora in the US have to be remainded by ex press Bill Clinton to please give a flying zhit about Haiti and their brothers and sisters in their home land,
clinton said please haiti needs you, please don't be such slime ball race, everybody cares about their motherland except for you guys, come on, can you guys and your own freaking goverment just get alone. can you invest and bring back to your country all those skills you learn abroad, can you please stop thinking of yourself as if you were a diferent kind of haitian.
man, bill clinton sure is fighting a lost cause, to try to get haitians to care about thier own country is like trying to get osama bin laden to do the humpty hump dance.
On more thing why are the haitians so obssesed with everything dominican, they like flies flying over a turd, why if we're so racist and corrupt, why is it that you people don't go to the french and creole websites to talk zhit overthere, even in cyberspace
It will be very interesting indeed.
etiennc01
your master is calling you, he want you to go back to your land and stay there, he needs a foot massage.
it is hard to get a man with his master in child psychology ,who has tasted freedom to return to the days of giving sexual gratification to pervert slave owners.
The denotative definition of the the word "nostalgia" is a bittersweet longing for situations of the past but its connotative de finition is " old school trinitario "
By the way, what did I say to get your attention and get you to flip ?
ying yang ?
It is wise to "quedar callada en lugar to being redundant and erratic like ""old timer trinitario"""
You say you love me ?
Oh thank you ,Igual !
etiennc01
you may have a master in child pornography, but you still a peasant.
yo probablemente hable mierda, pero no soy igual que tu que te la comes.
jajajajaj
fue una broma
Your comment show me your Q.I.
judgment instead of inductive judgment ( NO I WILL NOT EXPLAIN )
This is why you still think that I am a peasant( agricultural worker who feeds the bourgeois old schol triniario) La historia de todas las sociedas ha sido la lucha de classes
I just do not know why u feel confortable around peasants and uncorfortable around well educated Haitians and Haitians Dominicans who understand both cultures They also understand the challenges facing both countries and they use all tools and resources( humour) to calm down the spirits and disarm,neutralize and marginalize the hate mongers on both sides.
Unless a strong earthquaque divides the island in two seperate islands along the Haitian Dominican border old school trinatario u will continue to post your worries and fear to deaf ears.
Sir, the future belongs to calm,reasonable,intelligent leaders not to anachists ( Obama and the republicans"
I AM WAITING !!!
You risk to hear from me much more often then, because I always bypasse people like you whose brain power can rival Einstein's IQ, and you, my friend, possess maybe even more bang in processing power than his. What do you think, boy?
in fact this is the first time in my life I meet someone so intelligent. My dear friend you should be teaching at some famous Universtity and help the younger generations in good mannerinf and the proper way to behave in public. I sincerily think that you are wasting a God given talent.
I am pretty sure that you are going to put all that talent of yours at your community living in the United States in order to let them know that there some Boroughs in North America's megalopoles that have been taken over by immigrants coming from other countries.
Tell them that the Americans did not treat them the way your people are treating mine in the Caribeans.
Maybe and thanks to you, they'll understand how it is to be foreigner and unwanted
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/200....s-glue-man-the-best_n_148415.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV9wLX-iUww
I'm pretty sure that you are the kind of dude that talk to yourself more than you talk to other people, and live and fantasy world with a lot of internet friends.
You Don't live in DR so therefore you don't know jack zhit what's going on down here.
what i can see judging by the amount of time you spend on this website is that you wish you were dominican, but that's o.k, alot of people do, the problem is that you're a trying to hard to connect and because of that you coming across as another haitian troll with an identity problem.
I suggest you find a internet site that caters their content to your interest and ethnic background, maybe there you'll find many more friends and aceptance.
In the meantime in the real world the violence is spreading in santiago and more haitian nationals are been chase back to the border by and angry mobs.
http://www.clavedigital.com/App_P....s/Noticias.aspx?id_Articulo=25316
sorry pero en RD no hay cama pa' tanta gente.
telemeco, thanks for that info especially the youtube video.
"The real vilolence is spreading "throughout "Santiago ( grammatical correction)
Just the kind of intelligent activities to encourage . They will surely improve the image of a country depending on tourism and foreign investment to make steady progress
No country can can better the lives of a few without oppressing a weak , poor, and silent group No country can offer a good education , good services ,a chance to move up the economical ladder to a few (oldschooltrinitario) without the cheap labor of one group
Be careful to know to which foot are attached the toes that you are stepping on
( Wise proverb)
the part that says that no matter how much time you spend on this website you'll never connect with dominican culture and way of life or the part that says that you're a lonely looser with no freinds trying to be accepted by people by been the voice of reason.
piti be careful to know which of my foot is going to travel deep inside your cocco, my left foot is stronger than my right foot.
and feel free spell check my gramma, i'll give you that, you are a very educated looser
Estoy consciente de la crítica que estos conceptos generan y todo aquél que se atreve a exponerlo de inmediato recibe al menos el sambenito de antihaitiano, xenófobo, racista y cuantos epítetos puedan pronunciar; mas "los espíritus mediocres suelen condenar todo aquello que está fuera del alcance de ellos", y los conceptos de Patria, Dominicanidad, Nación representan una carga demasiado pesada para estas mentes enfermizas.
los argumentos que presentan estos muchos aqui tiene como finalidad undir la patria
pero el filo del machete tiene la ultima palabra
He replies : shit ! i said fire and everyone ignores me so I run out thiking that they will follow me.
got that joke ?
I got a bottle/20 tablets of SEROQUEL RX I had bipolar disorder.
I was so depressed,I had a gloom and loom view of the world.
I thought everybody was out to hurt me
I am cured now , I feel a little bit better now.I am optimistic and outgoing
I have no use for the pills now , anyone wants them to treat their depression ????
"En el nombre de la santísima, augustísima e indivisible Trinidad de Dios Omnipotente, en manos de nuestro presidente Juan Pablo Duarte, cooperar con mi persona, vida y bienes a la Separación definitiva del gobierno haitiano, y a implantar una República libre, soberana e independiente de toda dominación extranjera, que se denominará República Dominicana,"
no pierdas tu tiempo discutiendo dominicanidad con esta gente, estos tipos son nacidos en el extrangero y se creen que porque "visitan" la parte verde de la isla eso los hace expertos en lo que esta malo en RD, nosotros no somos una raza perfecta pero si somos una raza mixta que mira su nacionalidad primero y luego el color de la piel, esta gente mira el color de la piel y luego la nacionalidad, es por eso que estan tan atrasados, siempre sacando el racismo como excusa para justificar el maltrato que le dan en RD, pero nunca admiten que vivir como esclavo en dominicana es mejor 100 veces que vivir como esclavos en su propio pais, ademas tampoco admiten principalmente estos personajes cyberneticos de DT.com es que ellos son tambien responsables por la decadencia del pueblo haitiano. Si unos de estos aspirantes a dominicano se quiere dar cuenta de la realidad que vive el pais, que se de una vueltecita a pie por santiago pa que sepa si es menta lo que chupa la burra.
Now tell me Ms Tainos, What do you want me to do, permanently move back and stay in the DR take arms and start shooting Haitians? Anyway, I live in Santiago and have a second home in South Florida so that in case of a Haitian invasion, I have a place to go and excape. Anyway, all kidding aside, I travel back and forth on a regular basis. All of my family is permanently stationed in the DR for now, but my company moves me around aproximately every 5-8 years. Now what is your excuse?
My point is that many educated, successful Dominicans do not return to their country to help make it a better place for those who are left behind. The DR just needs more infrastructure and a way to deal with legal and illegal immigration. Legal and illegal Haitians are just trying to find a way to survive and provide for their families. We should all care about our neighbors.
It's the same attitude in the US of close the borders whenever a non-native born does anything wrong. Those people are the exceptions, not the rule. AND Innocent people should not have to hide.
Now if you think unification is kool and such a great idea, then you go ahead and tell that to the Palestinians within the state of Israel. Tell that to Northern Ireland and Ireland. Tell the same thing to the people of former Yugoslavia if they want to forget about independence and join back and forget: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Slovenia. You tell that to the people of the former Czechoslovakia to forget about their split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. You tell that to the people of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and Cyprus. You go to India, Bangladesh and Pakistan and tell them they should unite again. Tell Taiwan and mainland china to get back together again. Doc, I can go on and on
First- We, Haitians, do not want reunification with the Dominicans and second, our country name is not Hispagnola, but Haiti, Quisqueya or Bohio. I suggest you go promote your reunification ambition to other dudes.
Another thing, Quebec is not a province in my book: it is a nation under occupation. In fact, it is its elite and the catholic Church that keep the french canadians under the English canadian rule.
Go seek the right info before you come to play referee here
You'll have to excuse us if we take your "cosmic negroism", "pan-africanism" and "one-drop" mentality as we would take a grain of salt, but to put it in plain spanish, on the DR "no hay cama pa' tanta gente" (there are not enough beds to accomodate so many people), specially with the irish tendency that the majority of the haitian families from the peasantry have of giving birth to more children than their pockets can possibly afford, an old custom from the early days of independence, when manpower was at such a low that the peasant families had to put their own children to work the crops of their plots in order to fulfill their needs, and one that needs to be eradicated on the increasingly urbanized landscape of both countries, less we want to face an islandwide famine.
I learned that term on one of those forums discussing racial issues in the US. They discuss this ideology and the one-drop rule all the time. It's just a pun to the concept of "cosmic race" (mestizaje) that has been adopted on the majority of latin american countries with significant native populations. And which consists on insisting on the need of abandoning national identities in order to adopt a common "racial" identity. Marcus Garvey fought for this during the first half of the XXth century in the area of the african and caribbean english speaking countries, but he would only get partial success for all his endeavour.
http://thestudyofracialism.org/index.php
Dominicans never believed that and never accepted statements made by historians, which always claimed that the indegenous people of Hispañiola disappeared during the early periods of Colonization, regardless of the lack of scientific proof to support it. Dominicans traditionally had always insisted that a major part of our bloodline was composed of the native population of Taino or Arawak indians. It was not until just recently, through DNA testing and extensive studies, it was determined and concluded that yes the indigenous people were not totally wiped-out by the Spanards but survived a few more centuries longer then it was originally believed and has always been part of the racial make-up of the Dominican people. We were able to prove what we suspected all along. Coincidentally, the highest concentration of traces of one specific indigenous DNA was found among the residents of the Cibao region.
Culturally, the perception most Dominicans convey is one of pride regarding our spanish blood/lineage and one of shame/resentment or even total rejection and denial of our african blood/lineage? I could be wrong but very few dominicans I know have claimed both with pride.
My question is why do we not claim our african ancestory with equal pride..? It is what in fact makes us Dominicano right..? Instead we run from it. To run from it is to deny what is staring back at one in the mirror. Do you not agree..?
I look forward to anyone's feedback on this issue
Good point...
While I agree with recognizing equally all the parts of our heritage, however, I don't agree with the way the african heritage part of our culture is being used by the international NGO's in order to force this country to relinquish its sovereignity on its inmigrant issues with our western neighbours. That, dear sir, is where I (and many dominicans) draw the line. One thing is to have solidarity, and help in whatever way we can, in ameliorating the situation of an unfortunate relative, and another very different thing, is to be taken for a fool and let the relative have a say in how we run our house, so to speak. Haitian inmigration is not only a dominican issue, is a caribbeanwide phenomenon, and as such it must be dealt with.
I would agree to the extent that socio-economic and class struggle probably plays the major portion of the roles regarding views towards hatians living in the dr. That said, I cant help but wonder how much the desire to be as caucasion as possible that many domincans have plays a role in terms of having additional feelings of contempt and resentment towards hatians, particularly dark hatians. You must admit that most uneducated Dominicans just know that they dislike or even hate hatians and that is all. They've not bothered to explore this issue further on a grandular level like we've done on this forum. That is the main reason Ive focused my comments along these lines as it is definately a worthy point of examination.
Again, well said.. and point taken... It is definately a multi-dimensional story and focusing on just one aspect does a dis-service to the entire picture. Many factors play into this.. Agreed..
I also found your pride in Cibao funny. It's true, we cibaenos get so carried away with our love for our region, more than any other Dominicans I meet.
Nou bezwen bon jan solda ak bon zam lapawol nan forum lan !
To conclude my friend, racism is racism whatever the mask you give it to wear. And the most racist people are the ones who are nursing a low self esteem, or an hyperinflate ego. In both case it is much more less important than the average citizen, because he is not rationnal.
Nevertheless, You will be doing the world a GREAT service, please keep Haiti homosex... or I am sorry, I mean a homogeneous society like always. If there has been any country that has been more racist, with racist policies written in their constitution, it is Haiti. Racism is not just white vs black it is the other way around and in case you did not know it, Haitian racism is the root cause of your backward society and unless your country opens up to other cultures and races you will be doomed to oblivion. Finally, Haitians also prefer lighter skin soften negroid features. That is why you guys pay a high prices for Dominican prostitutes. Like everyone else in the world Haitians also prefer the european concept of beauty, does that make you a racist?
If we, haitians, have shown a much racism you are practicing now on your soil, it would be a long time since a few of your citizens would have been smoked in our country. I think Haiti is the country where the native has more to fear for his life than the foreigner. How many of them have you heard killed lately in our country? What about yours?
My friend your problem is the same as of contemporary dominicans: you find yourself in a country that is being developped and you think that you've already reached the rank of economic super power.
Don't you worry, I say, wait until the United States collapsed economically and I'll search your arrogance in a few years without being able to detect it.
As far as race is concerned on the island, what I see is that Haitians in general are proud to be black. Dominicans in general want to be more aligned with the rest of Latin America and would prefer being white.
If Haiti did not gain their independence from France, they would have been like Guadeloupe or Martinique. It would have been another French Department and would have been somewhat developed. Or if Haiti got their independence in the 1960's, '70s like Jamaica, Bahamas, I believe Haiti would be at the minimum like Trinidad. Did Haiti got their independence too early? Check this out: http://www.freewebs.com/jamesandshayneinhaiti/index.htm
They existed, but never at the levels of cruelty and outright brutality seen on the US and Haiti itself, the so called Saint Domingue francais, the terror of any and every slave and/or people of african descent on the hemisphere. The USA with its Jim Crow laws and ban on interracial marriage (one drop rule), and Haiti with its ban against whites and/or foreigners from owning land. You will be very (if not impossibly) hard pressed in finding any law forbidding LEGAL citizens of haitian descent from owning land or marrying anyone they please over here. We're, as it is, caught in the middle of the crossfire between extreme aryanism (USA) and extreme noirism (Haiti).
Mr Docpeters,
It is obvious that you don't know a rat about Haiti its people and its history. If we were a closed society as you stated it, there wouldn't be a tiny minority of foreigners that owns more than 80% of our resources. If we were a closed society, we wouldn't have allowed muslim, Jewish, German, French, Indus and americans immigrants to settle in our country, grab all our financial resources and invest them overseas while living the country under developped for hundreds of years.
Do you know that Haiti is the only country that is not bothered by illegal immigration? It means that once you're in Haiti, we don't care how you get in the country as long as you don't bother people.
You have no explanation because that "shame" that you say we have about being black is your own personal interpretation; and belief. It is YOU who thinks that, not us. This is not about racial pride, that is a US Americans thing, created to help the US black overcome the pain and trauma suffered as victims of slavery, it was a way to rid feelings of inadequacy the white slave master imposed on the blacks, but that you want to force upon Dominicans which do not identify with the suffering of Americans slavery, racism and segregation. Keep those ideas in the US do not import them to the Dominican Republic. We did not suffer any of those things to make us want to chant: 'SAY IT LOUD, I'M BLACK AND I AM PROUD." You say that in the DR and we won't know what the hell you are talking about. Why because there is no need for it.
Ask those Lebaneese in Haiti,Ask Digicel if we are are closed society.
Would we buy some cellphones at Digicel ?
Would we allow those " Al-Khal(Lebaneese)", "Biggio (Jew) Madsen( Norway) Baker(USA) in this country ?
Haiti is the only country not bothered by illegal immigration because it's barely a country.
Also, who the hell even migrates to Haiti, other than aspiring elites looking to wring out whatever they can out of the husk we call Haiti.
Let me give you a litlle refresher. Right after defeating the white french army and declaring independence, the "Great and Glorious" United States, France, Spain, Germany and the South American assholes we bled to liberate, cast upon us the tightest and the cruelest embargo our young country and the world have ever witnessed.
Then, they supported and armed the Alexander Petion's mulattoes against the Negro General and first Haitian King Henry Christopher. After the defeat of our Northern King, France came back with a fleet and under the threat of 500 guns, it twisted our arms and extorted 90 millions gold francs from us.
As far as I am concerned, I lost every single bit of respect for the Dominican who is trying to "bleach" his origins: it is degrading and an obvious sign of inferiotity syndrom and identity crisis. You can go splash your skin with ashes or bathe in flour, once you get out of the shower, you won't be white. And even if you are a clear skin, you will always be fitted with a large nostril, a big lips and a round tip nose which will remind you forever of your african descent, and that there is nothing you can do about it.
Keep insulting us, and keep lying about the past the present and even the future, for you must know that what goes around, must forcefully come around. We, Haitians, will be, one way or the other, a developped nation. It might take decades to be achieved, but most of us won't forget today's insults and when the time will come for pay back, I hope I won't hear some cowards hastily calling us brothers and saying that "we never did anything to you."
"Bay kou blye pote mak sonje"
Everybody used to pick on the Chinese at certain moment in time. Now, that they are wealthy financially and powerful militarily, you don't hear any coward label them "moon face" anymore. Suddenly, they are not "lemon face" or " yellow danger."
Oh yes! Everybody is longing about a piece of their cheap good exporting power, and I don't hear the yankee talking about cancelling international aid, neither you can catch them talking loud with them about geopolitics dispute.
Why? Because China is the world saviour now, because if she decides not to redeem the US treasury bonds anymore, the United States will crash and sink financially due to its huge budget deficit which is more than a trillion dollars now.
So, as I said, let you the Dominicans enjoy your money and your seemingly development and we'll talk about it again in a decade and a half or less. We shall see then, who
You are so lost in your desire to be a non black nation that you can't even realize that the energy shortage (black out) you're experiencing has a direct connection between the recession and its economic shortfall incidence on your country. Keep dreaming about things that will never be, and you'll find yourselves one day sliding back slowly and surely toward negative growth.
And it is not by thumping your chest neither by deviating your country's problem on the back of our haitian nationals living on your soil that you will get out of recession.
The fact is, and if you don't realize it yet, all the major countries of the developping world have slammed their market shut to other countries products and that instead of investing in yours, they will tend to gladly buy your assets at discount price the same way the Europeans, the Chinese, the Russians and the Japanese have bought America for cheap.
45 Gran for a skyline, you can't beat that.
We Haitians, our underdevelopment is quite relative. In fact, it has been fueled by political termoil in our land. Now, things are stabilizing and are settling little by little. I bet you that when the foreign troops will leave and our Diaspora will start returning back home and invest in its country, I wonder what will you do to force our peasants, that you are treating like slaves on your soil, not to go back to their land.
Yeah! The future is announcing itself really interesting indeed, I can't way to see how the self proclaimed "Tainos" will be able to get out of the economic mess into which they will be up to their neck.
http://www.freewebs.com/jamesandshayneinhaiti/index.htm
You're insane. Your characterization of Dominican's is so deluded you sound like a mental patient. You cast your complexes on others.There are some of us with "light skin" who do not have "large nostril, a big lips and a round tip nose" to remind us of anything. What reminds us is that we are clearly a mixed race nation who does not suffer from the race problem and are a great blend of different people.
Also your comment saying mixed race people are weaker than some "pure" race is disgustingly racist and sounds like some anti-miscegenation eugenicist garbage.
How much more racism can you go plow and harvest in such a statement? As if picking up garbage and erecting public markets are the only conditions that must be set in order for a country to be developped.
Don't you worry I tell you boys, one of these days, you'll wake up and take a look Eastward, and some of you who are happily trashing our country will find it much more wishable to spend an hour in Haiti than a single minute in yours, like the old time where we where the center of attention of all the Caribbean.
You are afraid of us now because you know what we are worthy. In fact, there are not too many nations in the world apart the Egyptians, the Summerians, the Azteks and the Mayans that have accomplished what we have done in building and architectural prowess.
We are still waiting where you see in the haitian constitution of 1987 where they refer the word black
Can you figure oupala out, Haitians have always been the bad guys, the agressor nation against the DR but he blames us for their misfortune, basically accuses us of racism and xenophobia. Can you believe that? I really want to know where in the world is he coming from, where did he get that. I can only explain it as delusional, I refuse to get into a debate with a person that lacks logic and twists facts to accomodate his distorted mode of thought
He is just like people who owe money to creditors, they plead for help and ask to borrow cash but refuse to pay, when payment is due. However, when you go after them to collect, all of a sudden the creditor is the bad guy, a bastard for wanting his money back. Similarly, the same is true for Dominicans, we want to be left alone, we want to keep our soveignty but when we are threaten by a nation that historically has screwed us, don't blame us for wanting to defend ourselves. We only want what is ours
As far as I am concerned, and if God will be so merciful to grant me a life long enoug to witness all that, you could go rot in Hell, because in the family where I come from, we don't turn the other cheek.
And you better pray God that neither I or my friends won't reach to power in Haiti, because if it would have been the case, your ass would be fried and you would have had a lot of explanation to do in order to justify you current arrogance and racism. And I can add that if you do not respect us it is because we haitians are a bunch of lapping dogs who tend to forget what others have done to us even though the scars are fresh
I think that our little cousins from the East must start experiencing hardship in order to understand that with the devaluation of the dollar along the decades, owning a few billions dollars economy is like being the owner of a big bag of fresh snow under a steady temperature and a covered and cloudy sky.
However, as soon as the sun rays of the recession surge between the cloud cover, that big bag of snow will not wait to melt. And that what is happening to those little fools who are not even smart enough to understand that their elite is slowly but surely selling their country assets for cheap.
All the big development projects won't benefit the masses, but a few oligarchs who are controlling what is paid and what is spent in their country.
As I said, we're not in a depression yet, but it will be very interesting indeed to see what the so called Carribean dragon is going to do when its people won't be able to sustain the heavy cost of living
"There are some of us..."
I've gotcha!! That some of us, how many of them are they in your society? a majority? I don't think so, because you just acknowledge that there are only "some of you" that are not bearing your african ancestry marks. In other words, and according to your own statement, you just acknowledge that the Dominicans constitute a nation of mostly people with african ancestry and features.
I can understand why you and your pals are so confused and are always getting their feet caught in the ropes when they try to explain and justify a string of identities they so desperately want the world to acknowledge them.
You'll wake up one day, but I won't be there to welcome you to the real world
As for you painting Haiti as this eternal giver, yeah giver of oppression and constant invasion.
Also, you said "all those names with haitian phonetics"...are you stupid? Those are FRENCH last names. That doesn't automatically peg them as "Haitian" names. Remember your masters.
Haiti's turmoil is owed to no one else but Haiti for it's past sins.
I don't waste my time with underachievers who can't even understand what is written on paper with plain English. Usually, one or two exchanges with a blogger is enough for me in order to find out whether or not he is rationnal or not, and you my friend, you are not. In fact, you are only repeating what your emotions and your sillyness dictate to you.
People like you are time waster for me. Instead of commenting your idiotics statements, I prefer to ignore them and debate the ones among you who have something solid to tell about.
I am not the bad guy you try to depict in vain. In fact, I am more concern about the faith of the two nations that are sharing this island than most of you are. I understand perfectly that, like my people, you the Dominicans, are a bunch of innocents that are following what your elite do or say. If it tells you to hate and hunt down the Haitians, you do just that. If it tells you that you have an indian ancestry, you will swallow that farce too. If it tells you that everything is fine with the Dominican economy, you will just nod and take its lies as the Gospel.
Well, we Haitians are different, in fact, our past and numerous deceptions have traumatized us at such a point that we have developped instinctively a "No" as an answer and a morbid scepticism toward our financial and political elite.
And if you still think that things will get better and rosy for your country due to foreign investments from the US or Europe, read that article whose link is posted below.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8202714.stm
And it is just the beginning, for according to experts, there is an incoming planetary crash for October this year. Let's hope they are mistaken, if not your country will be roughed much more badly than mine.
The only reason I'd like that to happened is the fact that it would teach you a lesson of humility. Because when you start seeing numerous soup kitchen and millions of people flocking in your cities the same way it has happened in my country, then, you'll have a taste at the medicine we Haitians have been forced to swallow for more than20 years now.
Read the article and enjoy the upcoming crash.
This isn't a debate, this is me pulling your pants down in front of everyone.
Oupala, I am just going to say my last few words, before I stop. You got to slow down, take a deep breath and open up tell me, what is this pent-up frustration? You are just rambling words incoherrently
Lets do DNA testing in Haiti to determine if Haitians really carry black-African blood. Haitians might really be Indians diguise as negroes. Then again they might also be white, just because they look black, does not mean they are negroes. They might be doing that to pass of as a black person. You can't be too sure, you know. Just because some Haitians look like one of the missing links does not prove anything. You got to do a DNA test to be sure.
No thanks for your advice. The Kreyol/Bossal make to much destruction in Haiti dont need your DNA bomb
I have never seen in the Haitian mulatto an enemy, but I despise his arrogance and, as a school boy, I used to beat them like voodoo drum. I know what racism is because I have experienced it like every little haitian kid raised in mixed family where the parents always favor the clear skin ones. I have never understood that until I became an adult.
So to speak that I understand when someone is racist and I know what it does to people that are exposed to such insane behaviour. However, in the bottom of my heart I don't anyone is better than anyone on this planet.
I don't you have enough knowledge and understanding of our history to comment on it, so let's say that we are going to leave that chapter alone for now and that we will focus on what is best to the two people sharing the island. If my Dominicans counterpart wants to discuss it with honesty, it will be a real problem to have a civilized debate on the matter and to try to find real solution for it.
We must find a way to stop the peacefuf invasion of the Dominican land by our disenfrenchised, we must find a way to force the two governments to take their responsability toward their people asnd country. We will not be able to do that by missing each other respect.
Once again, I think I have said on this site in my early days that my best friend was a Dominican and that my very first girl friend was a beautiful black Dominican woman. So I know the people very well, they are good and very emotional people, and I find it a crime to throw them at each other throat.
Docpeters-Great Close-Thank-you
And yes, I knew racism and discrimination as a kid, and I am still experiencing and witnessing it directly or indirectly every single day of my life here in North America. However, think God I've always been stronger than it, and I have never let it bend my shoulders in front of anyone whatever it was a Negro, a White or a Yellow. Besides, I don't believe in racism, for me it is an extra egomany and egocentricity.
I do believe however in the superiority of the intellect, and if someone can prove to me that he knows much more better than I do, then I will gladly submit myself to its knowledge power while keeping the biological equality intact.
And that's what has particularly made me upset when I notice that intelligent and articulate people, I have the pleasure to aknowledge their intellectual power on this site, are reverting themselves to such a degrading and unfounded impulse of false race superiority.
I understand perfectly the emotions and the negative impulse on the Dominican population psyche when it notices that virtual invasion of their country by our peasants. I have to admit, I wouldn't be particularly happy if I had to face the same problem in Haiti from any other nation, most of all, if those immigrants are as ill prepared and educated like our peasants.
However, it,s not by preaching violence or to push the population against them that the problem will be solved.
To solve it, the people must take to the streets in an orderly fashion and let their government understand black on white that the invasion must stop. And the best way to stop it
Fo, if we don't force our governments to seek and find a permanent solution to this problem, another Trujillo like massacre coud be simming under our nose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4bCwbYsvm8
Except that now thanks to you Taino, with that fresh new perspective which you provided and based on Khan's most recent response, I believe he finally got the gist of it. Unfortunately, I think it is all over now and seems like the issue is pretty much clarified. I HOPE.
Anyway, It has been a great debate and I thank everyone who participated. Khan eventhough I did not fully agree with your perspective, I do understand why you hold on to those beliefs and values, I respect you for that and I admire the solid Dominican/American identity that you cherish and I congratulate you and your parents as well for inculcating such a strong sense of self-worth and pride, yet humble at the same time.
But here is where I sway away from that argument. If slavery is truely responsible as you say for our present day concept of beauty, then explain to me who or what shaped the concept of beauty for the Asians? Remember except for Indians and Pakistani, Asians are not caucasians, they are members of the mongoloid race and were never submitted to slavery by white europeans, but they believe that to have very pale-white skin is the ideal sign of beauty. They spend billions of dollars on skin whitening creams, just to make their already light complexion, even lighter then what they already have.
When I lived in Boston, I remember how all the WASP girls were always drooling over me as the hot Latino. Man, I was one of the most popular guys around. The white American boys who were taller and probably better looking then me were not even as popular. Yet, when I came to Miami and lived among the Hispanics, the girls could care less. It was the first time in my life, I actually had a hard time getting a date with the girl of my choice. You know why, I was just another Latino guy among the bunch. They could have the pick of the crop. I was not different or any special from anyone else, yet blonde guys were in demand.
Have you not heard about a basic principle in economics, supply and demand. shorter the supply, greater is the demand and higher is the price.
Then if there is a global campaign as you say to perpetuate that stigma, explain to me why
the fair skin Europeans regularly sunbathe, strive to obtain the darkest tan possible and will do whatever it takes to darken their skin. Because of slavery or because of a worldwide campaign to perpetuate the stigma? Which of the two arguments are you going to use to support your theory?
Khan, I really want to hear your response on this one. I can't wait!!!
http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/golliwog/
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2553348&page=1
http://kaganof.com/kagablog/category/contributors/ruby-savage
But for white people it is cool for them to want to be dark???? Alright, yet for you, it is not OK for Dominicans and Asians to prefer to be a lighter complexion. Talk about a contradiction and talk about double standards.
For you it is OK for White people to want to be what they are not, to you that is OK, but not OK for Asians and Dominicans to be what they are not. Man you need to make up your mind. It sounds to me like prejudice in favor of the White man. You clearly stated that for the white man it was cool to be a person of color. Why is that not acceptable or "COOL for people of color to prefer to be lighter. It is not going to change their race or make them any more or any less then when a white person gets a tan. Whites will stay caucasian, just like an Asian will remain mongoloid and Dominicans mix.
I am sorry but I do not concur. Let me tell you something, I have seen plenty that look like they just got off a slave ship.
I am not going to argue with your and Obama's US definition of blackness, I understand it and accept it point blank. Do you know why, because he comes from a country that has a culture and a history that supports that definition.
http://www.amazon.com/Not-Out-Afr....points=0&filterBy=addFiveStar
http://www.historyplace.com/pointsofview/not-out.htm
Read the reviews and tell me your opinion about this.
Full article: http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/article.php?news_id=18376
However, I had also the privilege to read it, it is excellent and paint a bright future indeed for the country, but let' say that the turning point, in that battle against insécurity, is the fact that the ex military have been let down by the elite who stops hiring them for monkey business, furthermore they are aging, and being given the Americans are dealing presently with a very obedient president, then, nobody needs them anymore.
The ones that were inserted indide the national police, and who were tremendously corrupted have been overwhelmed by the new promotions of more educated and well trained fellows (the days of the police state is over).
That is the reason why with the combination of our actual 10 000 members force and the excellent training they receive, we're not far from becoming back the safest country in the world for anyone.
Thank God indeed also that the Americans have stopped sending us backk our criminal nationals on their soil