From: Dominican Republic, No Spin Zone
Hooey !
Written by: telemeco, 19 Jan 2010 8:42 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Monte Plata
I didnt need a degree to figure this one out,,,,
it is a bad bad bad bad idea to send Dominican soldier into haiti,,,,,they will think we came to get them off the strip of land they manage to take over centuries
Written by: Gringo_1, 19 Jan 2010 8:52 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Maimon (Bonao)
Hush, hush. This just the first step in a secret plan for Dominican world domination. Please keep this a secret. KK Bye THanks,
Written by: josean, 19 Jan 2010 8:54 AM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
The Haitian military is already very corrupt they don’t need more contamination!
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 9:07 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Sending Dominican military into Haiti is a dumb-dumber move and a lose-lose situation for the DR,
that will reverse whatever goodwill has been generated by our relief efforts.
As the social situation in Haiti worsens and the populace awakens from their state of shock and grief,
any Dominican military in Haiti will be in be in additional harms way and will have target posted in their back. If the Dominican military ever use their weapons and cause a casualty, heaven help us with the finger pointing and accusations that will follow, and international condemnation.This suggestion is a bad idea, and must be voted down.
Written by: buenoha, 19 Jan 2010 9:11 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The DR military should stay out of Haiti. We have done enough for them already. Let the rich nations take care of Haiti now. The wounded that were treated in DR hospitals should be sent back as soon as possible.
Written by: buenoha, 19 Jan 2010 9:14 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Stop wasting our public money in Haiti and fix our DR streets. Fix our electricity and clean, drinkable water supply problem.
Pave the streets of the neighbourhoods of La Romana and other DR cities. Recover the colonial zone's decaying buildings. Invest into our nation's healthcare and education systems. We have plenty of ways to spend money in our own nation before keep sending money to Haiti as if we were rich. We aren't!!!
Back to reality guys. I am deeply touched by the terrible events in Haiti but I am also aware that we cannot afford to give anything more than we have already done.
Written by: josean, 19 Jan 2010 9:18 AM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
"Pave the streets of the neighbourhoods of La Romana"
What are you talking about, Martha said the streets in La Romana are paved with Milk and Honey!
Everything is perfect EAST of the Toll Plaza!
From: Dominican Republic
Whatever happen to the UN so called Peacekeeping troops that where station in Haiti from after the coup? did all of them get injured or killed during the earthquake?
Written by: Pepe32, 19 Jan 2010 9:26 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Bad idea ,Dominican troops would be targets and may be forced to defend themselves and shoot back which could cause a major incident and put any Dominicans in Haiti in immediate peril.
We should let the Minustah and the US troops clean out Haiti not us.
Written by: pelaut, 19 Jan 2010 9:29 AM
From: United States
Yeah, that's right. Let the Yankees do it, then holler about the CIA and blah blah blah.
Go carefully, especially with regard to history betweent he two, but JEEESH! the hypocrisy!
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 10:24 AM
From: United States
I happen to agree that the introduction of Dominican troops into the Haitian landscape would be seen as an act of occupation many Haitians. The suspect relationship between the two nations since the 17th century will not be ended with simple declaration of solidarity from both sides. However, many of you fail to recognize the tremendous amount of political pressure on the Dominican government to become more active.
Unfortunately, for us this is a double edge knife, which it does not matter which way we go, we are going to sustain wounds. The question here, which is worst, to be seen by the IC as a country that did not contributed to the arm forces supply or run the risk of losing personnel and worsening the already bleak relations.
I am of the school of thoughs that believe in taking the necessary risks, for the consequences of taking none will be far reaching and damaging for our future. Hence, on this instance, I will support the introduction of troops and allow the
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2010 10:27 AM
From: United States, NYC
Well, I say it's a tough call. On the one hand, this issue of historical enmity between DR and Haiti has to have some limit, and if this catastrophic event is not it, then I don't know any event that could remove the impediments to rebalancing the relationship toward a less antagonistic stand. And on the other hand, I can see why certain Haitians and Dominicans seek to continue their distance even in the mist of this horrendous tragedy. But great tragedies are themselves events that often test the notion of "established truths." The DR and Haiti need not, in my opinion, continue to hold themselves at arms length, and if our troops are indeed needed, I see no reason why they under proper leadership should not undertake to assist in Haiti's Relief Effort. Perhaps, stationing them near our common border to assist in some manner would be the first areas to look at. And if all goes well, then further assistance deeper into Haiti can be contemplated.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 10:30 AM
From: United States
haitians to react anyway they want. It will give us the ability to say to the IC and our people that we did our part in contributing militarily to the stabilization of the devastated country and the haitian people responded negatively to our presence, therefore, it was time pull out.
I will give them as much rope as possible and let them hang themselves. We can not continue giving them the ability to label us as uncooperative and unwilling to create a situation in which relations can be reinvigorated.
I happen to support Mr. Fernandez's decision, he is thinking like a political leader and not a civilian. That is his job, to think freely of civil influences and see the political landscape that very few civilians understand to begin with and make decisions based on that landscape. I love to see politicians be forced to do the political dance that they were put in there for it, something that it is not often necessary when dealing domestically.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 10:33 AM
From: United States
Atabey, very good. As I stated, this is the right political move, migh not be the right civilian move, but his not a civilian to behave like one.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 10:34 AM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
I think we should not send troops into Haiti because that every time casualties come up the first the NGOs are going to blame is the FAA. By the end of the shock Haiti is on now there will be some 30,000 troops there between USA and Minustah so I don't see the need for us to be more active than we have been already. If we are not there they can't blame us for any casualties that are sure going to come up and are going to start popping up in about 1 or 2 months.
Written by: xwill7, 19 Jan 2010 10:40 AM
From: United States, El cuarto bate
Send the extra 1300 to the border for border control duty
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 10:44 AM
From: United States
Belly,
You are right if you are thinking like an ordinary citizen, but if you think with a political mind, then it all makes sense to you. Trust me, my civilian mind tells me no, because of the many reasons already stated by some of you. However, the political arena is far more complicated than our simple day to day lives and it often does not match its complications and distractions.
Politically the Dominican government is doing the right thing, while socially, they might face some resistance from those that often like to be on cautious side and those who do not want to let go their mistrust of the haitian people. I like to think that this is a real test for both people.
For us this will prove whether we can actually trust the hatians to respect our intentions and see us as any other foreing nation lending a much needed hand. As for the haitians, this will be a test to their people trust or mistrust in us and show how much they appreaciate our lending hand.
From: United States
"..stationing them near our common border to assist in some manner would be the first areas to look at. And if all goes well, then further assistance deeper into Haiti can be contemplated."
This is the best option to take if DR military intervention is needed, particularly to stop the inevitable massive influx of destitute Haitians. Already a mayor of one of the border towns announced the crossings of 10,000 Haitians in only one single day. We should however continue with our solidarity as civilians to support relief efforts, to do otherwise would only create additional problems rather then to solve or eliminate them.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 10:53 AM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan,
I get your point but as a person who have dealt and been to Haiti many times trust me the mistrust is there it just hasn't come up because they are still in shock. When casualties do happen by either USA or UN who you think they going to blame for it. If you talk to Haitian they are already complaining that USA is invading them NOW. Trust me I'm talking from a first hand experience that anything we have done so far is going to be washed away if any casualty is to happen with a FAA soldier inside Haiti.To me is the opposite after everything we have done all we have to do is seat back and wait to see how they react to future relations between the 2 countries because as it stands now we have a opportunity and we can't waste it. Remember the "bite the hand that feeds you" policy in this case has proven to be more effective for us against NGOs.
Written by: talia, 19 Jan 2010 11:05 AM
From: United States
Send more Dominican Militias to the border to enforce border rules and protection. That should be common sense if its not being done already. The border is at an even more critical point not just for Haitians trying to evade the crisis but for other Aid organizations coming through. The discernment of legitimacy for any peoples passing through is very important now.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 11:24 AM
From: United States
Belly,
Yes, indeed I know that the mistrust is there and it will take time for anyone to see it. It is human nature to hide their personal feelings when trying to survive, once the fear of survival disappear, humans tend to return to their normal behaviors. This is the time taht I want to see and see how each side reacts. It is clear that the Dominican government and many people who are fearful of the haitian plague have virtually put their guards down and are allowing the good to take place, but wait till that guilt disappear and then we are back to square one.
My experience with hatians and haiti tells me that it will be a high friction situation and that there will be a mountain to climb for the Dominican soldiers to be trusted and taken as cooperators by the haitian people. The level of mistrust from both sides is at its highest and very difficult to measure its influence in the streets and government levels.
However, I tend to look at the bright side and hope
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 11:26 AM
From: United States
that both sides will bring the best out of them. Belly, it is in the risk taking that you stadn the chance of getting the most reward. Off course, without removing the fact that it could backfire on you and make things worst.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 11:37 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Political ingenuity and naivete of historical relations between the DR and Haiti will applaud such a dumb move.
The DR has done enough for Haiti, as a matter of fact much more than we are really able to, because the DR is a kind and compassionate country.
To send Dominican troops into Haiti for peacekeeping would be disastrous, and an inducement for havoc. This insanity will never be actually carried out, and it is a "poisoned gift" invitation, that is being used as bait by those that do not have the best interest of the DR in mind.
Anyone well versed with the MO of the Dominican army, and most armies, is that they are not really trained for police actions and fail miserably in that sense, unless they are MP's, or special UN soldiers trained specially for peace keeping missions.
A nightmare scenario would be to place a Dominican soldier, armed with an automatic weapon, facing a crowd of Haitian looters armed with machetes, and the foreseeable regrettable consequences.
From: United States, New Haven, CT
Plain and simple WE HAVE TO SEND AID!!!
You want to give Haitians some sense of security in regards to our troops being there, fine SEND THE TROOPS WiTHOT GUNS!!
Keep the guns on our side of the border or whatever, this should be a strictly relief effort you know need "Guardias" there slapping people and looking menacing with guns in the midst of chaos, send some infantry men to help dig the rubble, send Medical staff mostly, send engineers and electricians and construction personnel, DR doesn't need to send 1,300 troops with rifles what the heck for?
Its so sad to see my country men feel this way about another human being, you rather perpetuate a bad episode in our histories than to accept the fact that the people there are suffering beyond anyone's imagination.
If there was an earthquake in Germany, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, do you think they US or UN would intervene because at one point they were at war?
Mi gente you need to stop being so selfish and cynical and truly com
From: United States, New Haven, CT
Mi gente you need to stop being so selfish and cynical and truly come together as a people to give aid, I can understand how the situation in DR has desensitized a lot of you to the suffering of anyone but your own, but this is a test on our part to see if the Dominican Republic can be accepted into the IC and a contributing actor, from what I see here we are nowhere near ready to be a part on the world stage we are still too selfish and stupid to see the reality of this dire situation.
"My corazon llora por mi patria, pero llora mas todavia por la ignorancia de su gente"
-Me
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 11:49 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
On the other hand reinforcing the border and posting the majority of the DR army, navy and air force near the Haitian border, is a necessity, most indispensable and very recommended move.
DR soldiers and officers could assist in logistics, communications, surveillance, border peacekeeping, control, and prevention of contraband and illegal entries.
The DR air force should be permanently moved to Barahona air force base, and all the Dominican officers rotated periodically to serve in border posts.
A good percentage of the DR navy force and headquarters should be moved without any more delay to base Naval de las Calderas in Bani.
To have our military in comfortable do-nothing posts in the city, should be a thing of the past.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 11:50 AM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Ironthinker
SEND THE TROOPS WiTHOT GUNS!!
Really? WOW how much love for Dominican you really have? Como dicen "con amigos como tu no necesito enemigo". I can't believe you said .. Oh! wait you probably never been to DR or Haiti right?
When was the last time you visited the island.
From: United States, South Plainfield, New Jersey
Here we go again, LF think that DR is a super power. I don’t mind with giving humanitarian aid to Haiti. I really don’t think is a good ideal. All it takes for a Haitian to kill one Dominican soldier and all hell will break out. Take dose 1,300 soldiers and use them to combat the Nation drug and crime problems that is currently going on in DR. Beside from where is LF going to get the money to deploy and support our soldiers?
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 12:05 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Belly
We did send civilians without security or guns and look what happened. The unarmed Dominican and Colombian civilians that were in Haiti trying to help, were viciously attacked and shot by unruly mobs.
Haitians have recent violent history of food riots and mayhem, and they are certainly not very peaceful and orderly nations like the Japanese for example.
Some of the news crews that you see in TV have side weapons and bodyguards that are in the other side of the cameras.
The reason the aid has had such a difficulty to be distributed is the security problem in the distribution. A Dominican civil defense truck handing out rations was assaulted by a mob and all the contents emptied in minutes, with some wounded and beat up pretty bad.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 12:18 PM
From: United States
Generoso,
I see your point of concern and I share with you many of those concerns, however, you are coming across like a fear monger and indeed your comments prove that. People there is dangers in every operation that involve military personnels and we have had our share of incidents over the centuries with Haiti. However, this is precisely the reason why it is time to challenge such past and tryo to correct it, now the conditions on the ground are open for humantarian actions, not military actions.
If this deployment was in time of normacy and relatively calm, them, I will be totally against such actions, since they will have the potential for chaos and friction.
This is not the first time that an army from nation with a past of friction is sent to another country for humanitarian assistance.
Lets stop the fear mongering and hope for the best if the government indeed decides to send troops. My civilian mind tells me no, but politically is simply brilliant.
Written by: josean, 19 Jan 2010 12:21 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
“orderly nations like the Japanese for example.”
Sorry my dear friend and Professor but I must disagree!
Tell that to those who were/are their Victims in:
Pearl Harbor
Bataan
Korea
China
Just to name a few of the atrocities against humanity; and to the Amazon Forest that they are destroying, not out poverty and despair like the Haitians are destroying their forests, but out of pure greed.
Not to mention the Whales!
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 12:27 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
General
We did send civilians without security or guns and look what happened. The unarmed Dominican and Colombian civilians that were in Haiti trying to help, were viciously attacked and shot by unruly mobs.
That's What I'm talking and I just think is crazy for IronThinker to even bring up the idea of having unarmed Dominican trying to keep order. Why do people have this idea that Haiti is like a light switch that you can turn it on and boom everything is perfect and everybody is educated and life would be perfect and put away 200 years of problem in a heartbeat. I just think is funny that people think Haiti can be fixed in as little as 10 years. In my opinion those over optimistic go away quick because of the same failure of seeing that long term help don't mean the same amount of year in all countries. Long term in Cuba could be 10 years but long term in Congo could be 60 years and that's what the one helping have failed to see.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 12:49 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Belly
Time frame for Haiti by many experts is about 50 years, to get back to the 1980's. And by that time the whole world would have advanced exponentially another 100 years to 2160.
josean
I was awaiting your swift reaction, from under the rubble. LOL. I had in mind the late Japanese, not ancient kamikaze and warlord WWII Japanese. Study the modern concept of Kaizen for your next assignment. You ban is temporarily reinstated.LOL.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 1:00 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
dagtan
Another episode of "fuzzy thinking" . Your statement is contradictory as usual "This is not the first time that an army from nation with a past of friction is sent to another country for humanitarian assistance" .
The MINUSTAH is an armed peace keeping force, we have already sent the DR army in humanitarian assistance, having our soldiers join the MINUSTAH is another matter altogether.
Fear should not be mistaken by caution. I suggest you read the Art of War, By Sun Tzu, and get back to me in about 20 years.
And please stop addressing me directly with such nonsense, ridiculous and preposterous assumptions, again I was not directing my comments at you.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 1:03 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
General
Time frame for Haiti by many experts is about 50 years, to get back to the 1980's. And by that time the whole world would have advanced exponentially another 100 years to 2160.
In my opinion 50 years sounds close enough to a realistic number. I wonder how much is going to cost to rebuild and how long would be a return of investment if it were to happen. Even if Haiti gets back to the 1980s levels that is still not success at all, of course is better than today but far from being successful. Many people on TV are already starting the talk of getting Haiti back to what it was a week ago.So to me once those levels are reach we are going to see the drop in donations. Just look at CNN they are already switching to include more topics and is only been less than a week.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 1:11 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Belly
In media language is is called "viewer fatigue" instead of "battle fatigue", that the soldier can not stand many continuous days and nights without proper rest and sleep, before breaking down and his skills become depreciated.
The subject matter has been milked to the max by CNN specially and other news organizations. The mercenary newsmen are out for blood and are even creating situations to increase sympathy and stir emotions further.
But the viewing public is fatigued and is now searching for R&R (rest and recuperation). Haiti is becoming old news, and the news crews like hungry sharks, will start looking for new avenues to
increase their ratings and boost their viewership. It is all entertainment folks.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 1:42 PM
From: United States
Generoso said:
dagtan
Another episode of "fuzzy thinking" . Your statement is contradictory as usual "This is not the first time that an army from nation with a past of friction is sent to another country for humanitarian assistance" .
The MINUSTAH is an armed peace keeping force, we have already sent the DR army in humanitarian assistance, having our soldiers join the MINUSTAH is another matter altogether.
Fear should not be mistaken by caution. I suggest you read the Art of War, By Sun Tzu, and get back to me in about 20 years.
And please stop addressing me directly with such nonsense, ridiculous and preposterous assumptions, again I was not directing my comments at you.
You are such a baby man, take it like a man and defend your position without insults. BTW, my statements are not contradictory, they might be when compared to yours, since your comments are one dimensional and unprogressive. You know, even a child knows what your next post is going to look like.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 3:33 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
dagtan
Insults?LOL. "my comments are one one dimensional and unprogressive". No, not really I enjoyed "Avatar" in 3-D and thought it was a very progressive movie. LOL.
Ok, I am a child and a baby, I concede, now I have someone other than my mother calling me "my baby". LOL. Are you happy?
Now back to the subject matter.
Your agreement to the proposal to send armed Dominican troops to Haiti as part of Minustah, to be exact, is such a wacko idea, as the hypothetical situation in the case there was a major earthquake in Iran and a scenario where an order restitution situation emergency arose, and a proposal emerges to send Israeli defense force troops (IDF) to Iran as part of a peacekeeping UN mission. You can guess what would happen to the poor IDF soldiers. Same thing different places, different faces.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 4:00 PM
From: United States
Generoso,
I really hate this, but once again I am forced to reply to your misrepresentation of facts and information in order to make them fit into your frame of mind. Also, I do not want this to become yet, another lenghty engagement, but to make the assertion that the Israeli/Iranian issue is the same as that of the DR/Haiti, is really pushing the boundaries of reality.
First of all, the conditions between the DR/Haiti is based on past injuries that have only been maintained alive by the convenience of certain groups on both side of the border. Moreover, have you ever heard the Dominican leader calling for the destruction of Haiti or vice-versa. Does the DR and haiti have all their weapons pointed at each other awaiting their armageddon? Does the DR sents its planes for fly over and spy missions over haitian territory? Does the DR deny the existance of Haiti or vice-versa? Does the DR leaves the room when the Haitian counterpart comes up to the podium or vice-versa?, cont
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 4:03 PM
From: United States
no generoso, no to all of these conditions, therefore, it is not the same, never has, currently is not and it will never be.
I agree with you that there might be a group of people that want things to be like this, but that is not the case. I do not think that the injuries committed by the Haitians toward us are going to bring both sides to such extreme HATE. We do not trust each other, but when it comes to HATE, I want to believe that there is very little of that.
Written by: Pepe32, 19 Jan 2010 5:26 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan ,you are entitled to your thoughts but as usual I believe you are completely disconnected to the reality on the ground in DR.We a hospitable people and in this moment of chaos will extend our hands and hearts to help those poor souls hit by this disaster but when the dust settles the general ideas and real divisions are still there and may only increase if the crisis in Haiti puts more pressure on DR .You see while you take a ¨whole world¨view Dominicans will take a Dominican centric view where the interests of DR come first and no matter what is done in Haiti (short of the Senegal or Guyana plan) will definitely make things much worse for DR because the reality is that once the international focus moves away from Haiti or another crises arises somewhere else all these nations will move on and leave the problem to the Haitians and by unfortunate accident of history on US (Dominicans)! You and like minded people of Dominican descent may have your ideas but those of us
Written by: Pepe32, 19 Jan 2010 5:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic
on the front lines will have to face these issues head on while people on the outside make theoretical assumptions that have nothing to do with the reality we face. Ideally this quandary on the island of Hispaniola can be solved peacefully ,but given the history and the current reality it is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode and unlike some in this forum I have no doubts as to what side I would be on if the chips were down!
Written by: Pepe32, 19 Jan 2010 5:37 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Sending an army is not a philanthropic adventure,it is full of risks and Dominican soldiers in Haiti might lead to situations that may undue all the intelligent political moves from Leonel and the DR government.
One of our (Dominican) soldiers kill some Haitians (even if they are criminals) and every Dominican in Haiti would be in danger and if any Dominicans died in responses it would be even worse.You see the US and MINUSTAH can kill a bunch of Haitians in their "peacekeeping" but the reality is that even with all the " good feelings" today a similar action would be viewed very different if it was from the military of my country!
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 6:07 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Pepe32
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, more so if instead of a horse, you are dealing with a very thick headed burro.
Only way is to light a torch and show the burro the torch and then go behind the burro slowly, that makes him aware that you have a torch in your hands. Before fire is applied to his behind, all of of a sudden the burro will start moving away from the fire and hurries forward making complaining noises. True story. LOL.
From: United States, New Haven, CT
Belly,
Don't worry about how many times I've been to DR or Haiti.
You my friend are so concerned with keeping the little bit of Economical egotism you've gained selling "Gallina Viejas" en "villa Mella that you fail to see beyond the safety of your little glass case of emotion.
You're scared that Haitians will now be seen as people and maybe even find out they are more compassionate than Dominicans. you'd rather see them wither and die without even attempting to come to some sort of reasonable contingency planning.
FYI, The DR Civil Patrol has been first on the scene since the event, not once have they said they have been attacked. And as far as a food truck being rushed, come on they Rush "Inespre" trucks just like that in DR when NOT in crisis so what's your point? Yo he visto mujeres matandose por platanos en un super mercado asi que no me vengas con esa muela palomo.
"Your judgements on the human condition only serves to reinforce your detachment from it."
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 7:06 PM
From: United States
I think that the baby is coming back to you generoso, please stay on task and counter my counter. But as always, you exaggerated and have nothing but to resort to cheap insults.
Pepe, I hear what you are saying and yes maybe my view my not be as centric and dismentional as you might want to, that is life when you at the facts and stay from making assumptions.
Finally, I do not know what kind of interests you guys have in the DR, but if you only know a fraction of mines, I promise you' ll be pretty shocked. So I only do not have economic interests, but also it is my country at the end of the day. But I'll not allow these conditions to prevent me from making the most factual comments even if I or you do not like to hear it.
I do not like to play barrio politics, so refute my position and try to connect our status with Haiti to that of Israel with Iran. Talk about BURRO, LOL.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 7:07 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Belly
I didn't know you sold gallinas? If so how much? I heard that gallina viejas make the best soup.LOL.
And Villa Mella is not so far from me and easy to get to from Josean's "metro". LOL.
From: United States, NJ (M_ S Cibaeno 100%)
Senore, eso es LF tratando de brillar mas de la cuenta, eso no va a suceder.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 7:15 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
IronThinker
"You my friend are so concerned with keeping the little bit of Economical egotism you've gained selling "Gallina Viejas" en "villa Mella that you fail to see beyond the safety of your little glass case of emotion."=========
I was born and raised in SFM and unlike you my money comes from a Computer science degree and building software nothing to do with Gallinas and if it did I wouldn't deny it because business is business.
"You're scared that Haitians will now be seen as people."===============
Once again you are wrong I have donated 3 times to Yele Haiti foundation and been to Haiti 13 times already so I have always seen Haitian as humans and have a track record to prove it unlike you once again.
"Your judgements on the human condition only serves to reinforce your detachment from it."=====
Once again I show my support for Haitians by action not comments on a forum like you. cont...
Written by: josean, 19 Jan 2010 7:16 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Long live MAMA TINGO!
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 7:20 PM
From: United States
Belly, la gallina vieja son mas cara que el pollo gringo, dile eso a thinker. Lol.
Please edit writing from this stupid iPhone.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 7:23 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
dagtan
Your limitations are clearly visible to all. Your ego is taking necessary space in your brain and in your body, you need to have an emergency cyclonic colonic irrigation, meditate for maybe 20 years, travel the world, read a library full of books, and then maybe , and just maybe you will start to have a little understanding, of the subjects you are attempting to give your naive and sophomoric opinions on.
Like the master said serving tea, that was pouring all over the cup of the would be apprentice:
I can not teach you anything.......just like your cup, your head is so full of preconceptions that any knowledge and new information will just be wasted, and will wash away.
Dagtan BTW I read you bragging you have a six figure income......wow..... Can I have a loan?..... Pleeeeease to get some books and stuff? Just a little will do, like US$5,000 and I promise to pay you back double as soon as the DR sends their troop contingent to Haiti. LOL.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 7:27 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
IronThinker
knowing keyword like INESPRE and Gallinas Viejas doesn't make you an expert in Dominican politics it actually makes it more obvious that you don't know anything since those are the first keywords that came to your little mind(whatever is left) that you haven't gone past the High school level in either DR or USA.
"Yo he visto mujeres matandose por platanos en un super mercado asi que no me vengas con esa muela palomo"
by the way you used the Dominican word "muela" out of content which explain the difficulties you have grasping the local knowledge of the Dominican language.
Las palabras se toman de donde bienen asi es que duerme tranquilo, Que yo e visto muchos como tu.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 7:29 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
General
I didn't know you sold gallinas? If so how much? I heard that gallina viejas make the best soup.LOL.
And Villa Mella is not so far from me and easy to get to from Josean's "metro". LOL.
LOL sssshshshsshsh that's my side business after a long day at the office don't spell it out in the public here LOL but I can give you a good deal. LOL
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 7:30 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
Belly, las gallina vieja son mas cara que Los pollo gringo, dile eso a thinker. Lol.
Eso yo lo se, Mi prima es una experta haciendo sancocho. Don't expect IronThinker to know the difference in favor of the Pollo criollo y gringo he probably never been to DR he just happened to heard a couple of keywords in conversation which give away who he is hanging out with. Inespre the Dominican version of welfare and People fighting for a Platano in Villa Mella is his local knowledge of DR.
Written by: generoso, 19 Jan 2010 7:32 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Belly
Best laugh I have had all day. LOL.
Can I trade you some of these posters here like for a dozen gallinas? Please?
You can have the high maintenance philosopher and theoretician dagtan for 5 pollitos.LOL.
Written by: dagtan, 19 Jan 2010 8:05 PM
From: United States
Belly,
Durante las espera de los pollitos, indicale a generoso, que los quiere todos verde, este era mi color favorito. Es increible, que nosotros estamos hablando de pollo y barbaridades, pero si que me traen muchas memorias.
La cruelda de animales en nuestro pais, santisimo. LOL.
Written by: Belly, 19 Jan 2010 8:10 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
I think the General and Dagtan need to hug it out.
General
Cash only and all sales are final.... LOL
Dagtan
Yo solo vendo pollito criollos sorry Aqui dan muchas quejas de los pollitos de colores por que dique no saben igual. LOL.
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
Jimenez and Collado dwell in the past ..Can any one imagine that 1000Dominican troops would constitute an attack . Can you imagine that England would not assist France with troops if requested because they fought 200 years ago or that Austria would not help Italy because they fought 200 years ago .. There is no one alive who has seen a war between DR and Haiti and the thoughts of the two gentlemen are petty, Those people who want to revive grudges and do not have forgiveness in their heart for events centuries past , have a burden themselves to carry .
Written by: generoso, 20 Jan 2010 8:55 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
From todays "Hoy" newspaper:
HAITIAN OPPOSE MILITARY PRESENCE
Hundreds of Haitians demonstrated yesterday, between resignation and anger, against the impressive helicopters landing of U.S. troops in Haiti and at the Presidential Palace, an act considered by many as a loss of sovereignty. "It's an occupation. The palace is the country, represents our power, our face, our pride"
Imagine if this is demonstrations are happening against American troops that are considered pretty neutral, and it is only started now.
Someone that has studied Haitian-Dominican history, has travelled to Haiti numerous occasions,
speaks creole, has many Haitian friends, some intellectuals, some business people, some historians, some politicians, understands that the Haitians are a proud and nationalistic nation.
A contingent of Dominican troops, would be seen as an insult and the worse intrusion that the DR, could ever commit against the people of Haiti, and a bitter reminder of their sad predicament.
Written by: josean, 20 Jan 2010 9:00 AM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Professor,
Are you questioning Martha's expertise on the subject?
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 9:26 AM
From: United States
Ric,
It is clear to me that there are two sides when it comes to the introduction of Dominican Troops into the Haitian landscpae during these hard times. People, tend to forget or simply ignore the celebration and jubilation with which the American Troops were received in the Capital by its residents. I do not now why some nuts simply like to report a covenient side of the story, to conitnue with the mongering.
If you poll the haitian people today in HAITI and abroad, you'll find a majority support for the American presence and their interest in protecting the now ruined palace.
I happen to support the idea, that is time for us to break away from those old fears and plow ahead with the introduction of our troops and allow the haitians population and the Dominican troops to prove me wrong. Those old feelings and fears need to be put in back burner ASAP and allow a new horizon to shine on the new and invigorated Dominico/Haitian relationship.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 9:39 AM
From: United States
I believe that this is the time when the Dominican population, including the Dispora is going to become divided by a clear line between the progressive and those that want to preserve the old status.
We need to begin pushing our wishes that we want our country to make a strong push for the normailization of relations and for the establishment of talks that will allow us as a people to settle our diffrences with the HAITIANS and ask the hatians to make a formal apology to our people for the past injuries that they inflicted to us.
A formal apology from the Haitian government will be a great set point for the converations to begin and then, only then, the fear mogers will be forced to stay on the sideline. The Domincan intellectuals want this, the intellectuals wihin the Diaspora want this. Just ask people like Pons, Torres-Saillant, Diaz and others.
It is time to reproach our political agenda towards Haiti, it is possible and this is the time to get it done.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 10:40 AM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
What do you call better relation?
Let me tell where it stand as far as relation of import/export across the border we pay more money to go into Haiti with our merchandise than they do to come into DR. This gesture was accepted under the pretext to allow them to make more money than we do. The problem is that most of the product Haiti export is already available locally at better quality and price. So I don't know what else can DR do to have "better relation" because we we have done all we can from what we are given. There is nothing DR can do to raise Haiti standard and product variety to export. They have had many chance but the corruption is so deep that is unable for nothing to happen there. Have you read the Haitian constitution. After 32 constitution changes they still call the island Haiti and the whole island belongs to it all the way to Punta Cana and that's an official document that even though they "agreed" to change it well they haven't follow up on it.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 10:54 AM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan,
Can you give me a list of what would be included in the better relation list between DR and Haiti that is not already in place?
From: United States, New Haven, CT
Belly,
You couldn't said it better. You have a great programing carreer so stick with that and leave the delicate situations to us political scientist.
Crawl away in your lil' Lenovo laptop sit at the top floor of the Acropolis mall drink an imitation latte from a starbucks copy cat, sit all by yourself alienated from human contact like you do when you write hundreds of lines of code to make sure the DR phishing scams, porn, and Dominican hip hop video sharing sites are all updated.
You ostentatiously gloat about your credentials and your knowledge of the sentiments of the people, when your profession dictates by protocol that you work like a little library troll.
You've been to Haiti 13 times, if you count them it means you've been there only for certain things and not there to really live within the people. I find it strange that you switched to attack me personally because I show disagreement to your pompous views, but whatever, I'm sure someone in your family is to
From: United States, New Haven, CT
Blame
Tal vez te quitaron el bobo cuando eras muy pequeño, o los limpia botas te daban cocotaso para quitarte tu yun-yun cuando ibas vestidito de azul y khaki a tu liceo, Tal vez el bajo a pipi del baño de tu casa te pudrio los sentidos. Whatever the matter might be I'm sure your comments don't hurt anyone's feelings on here because your logic is full of flaws, you only seem to be on here to create chaos amongst users.
Whatever the case may be I refuse to acknowledge your comments until something semi-intelligent comes out of pie hole.
"Now Kick Rocks"
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 11:44 AM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
IronThinker
I know you feel left out in the knowledgeable conversation going here but I love you too!
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Jan 2010 2:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
This poor metal head has most likely never been to Haiti and has no real knowledge to comment on but that doesn't stop people from criticizing or attacking because they have FEELINGS!!
I don't know if we are dealing with infants or the rants of emotional women although effeminate men also tend to be over emotional!
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Jan 2010 2:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
!
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Jan 2010 2:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Iron thinker...an oxymoron. Iron and inflexible metal and to whit a "thinker" who uses the wrong organ to think!
To attack Belly who is one of the people in this forum who is most active in reaching out to Haitians is ridiculous...Iron feels in typical leftist touchy feely to say a couple of nice words while people like Belly were the first to push for REAL assistance for the Haitians but for some people we must not only assist the Haitians but bend over and take it up the arse for them to feel happy.Most of these individuals are people who live far away and do nothing for DR but for some strange reason jump into "action" (again lots of feel good words only) when it comes to Haiti.
Someone who thinks with emotions criticizing the logic of people who by trade think logically ...most of these people are probably the same that thought "yes we can!" was the most inspirational speech they ever heard and not an infantile expression on the level of "The little engine that could"!
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 3:13 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Pepe
Thank you! you got a special talent to tell the true like no other. I just love it when the "Make me feel good" crowd goes after me not knowing anything about the subject of immigration and how it hurts the average Dominican and I understand they not knowing anything about it because the truth is they only go to DR for 3 days and go back to their first world home with their "feel good" mentality. They never known or lived in DR or ever had a job there dealing with all that we know happen on a daily basis in DR. They don't know that all the progress in DR comes from people like me,you and others here who never had a doubt about protecting the interest of our people.We are humanitarian in real life because even with the little that we have we are willing to share it. The "yes we can" crowd always makes me laugh because they "care and protect" everybody but when you ask them for $5.00 donation to help the poor most will just turn away giving nothing.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 4:02 PM
From: United States
Belly asked,
Dagtan,
Can you give me a list of what would be included in the better relation list between DR and Haiti that is not already in place?
Belly, with much pleasure, however, I will like you to think about our most difficult hurdle to jump when it comes to normalizing our differences with Haiti. The economic situation is the least to be concerned about belly, since green always puts all differences aside when there is potential for money to be made. These discrepancies could be easily seen in our relationship with the Chinese Communist party, the U.S. has sacrified multitudes of lives in order to either control or eliminate communism, but we find ourselves time after time across the table with the largest communist regime on earth.
Belly, please bear with me, since I am at work and do not have the time to give you details, but in the meantime tell me what you think about overcoming this issue. I believe that once we are able to overcome this issue and oasis of
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 4:08 PM
From: United States
opportunites will rise and things could once it for all be resolved.
For over a century and a half, Haiti and the Dominican Republic have shared the island of Hispaniola. Their relationship, however, has rarely been amicable. In the Dominican Republic, this antagonism has led to the creation of a set of anti-Haitian prejudices called antihaitianismo. Antihaitianismo is actually the present manifestation of the long-term evolution of racial prejudice, the selective interpretation of historical facts, and the creation of a nationalist Dominican false consciousness. That process, of course, did not take place spontaneously. It was orchestrated by powerful elite groups in the Dominican Republic with strong interests to defend.
Their advantageous position as administrators of our resources and economy.
As you know the same thing happens in Haiti where there is a class that is benefiting from keeping both people mistrusting each other. However, their sentiment is not as strong
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 4:14 PM
From: United States
as our. Based on my personal experience in dealing with Haitians in my field, they have always approached me with a degree of mistrust and skeptism, but it wares off after they get to know you. However, it is far more difficult for Dominicans, including myself to detach ourselves from what we were taugh in school and how evil the hatians have been to us.
Belly, I have to honest, I have not dealt with ordinary Haitians often, my dealings are often with professional educators at both secondary and higher ed and sure they will be more open minded than the average Joe, the same applies to Dominicans. I have only been Haiti twice and it has been both times on business, in the process of introducing new educational opportunities to the country, so I have been insulated from the streets to a degree. I do believe that you been in contact with Haitians more than me, at the same time, I believe that you know that this is the starting point for both sides.
Finally, I put the burden on
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 4:14 PM
From: United States
us,
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 4:15 PM
From: United States
us since, we are the most advanced and civilized of the two.
From: United States
DAGTAN you have a brain. That's th efunny part rich Haitians pretend they're french and rich dominicans pretend they're spanish. BOTH ARE STUPID. The rich and powerful in DR are close to being white so they reject and dispise anything African. They associate African with Haiti.
They're protecting their own wallets while playing with the populations mind. We're are all brothers and sisters. Every black person came to this part of the world the same way. Inter-marriage resulted in mixed kids. We are all the same.
Google how to make a slave.
People need to stop the name calling. It makes you look stupid.
From: United States
DAGTAN. I have plenty of Dominican friends. My girlfriend is from Puerto Plata. There is mistrust between us both. Read about Haitian history not one side to get to the truth. The writer always makes himself look good. Then tell me why we're seperated. If i insulted anybody my sincere apologies I should know better.
We live in a cruel and screwed up world. People do things for money and power. If you want to know me read about me.
Again I want ot thank all the dominicans all over the world that showed compassion towards HAITI in these trying times. One day the mistrust will be gone and will reach our full potential as one. At the end of this journey we all go to one place so hate and name calling is a waste of energy.
DAGTAN DR is more advanced but more civilised. That's a low shot. POVERTY doesn't discriminate so be respectful. IF you want to ruin a country you isolate and in time it will turn on itself.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 5:23 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan,
The first thing Haiti needs to do is become more responsible to their own people which will EARN "NOT" give the respect, Then we can begin to negotiate as 2 adult nations behaving like adults until then DR should not change it's attitude towards a nation that shows no respect for it's own people. The main problem between DR and Haiti has lasted this long because of the same reasons. In many cases Haiti's politicians have promised many times to start acting according to the law but 2 weeks later is back to the same which create the same mistrust that you mentioned. i.e. If I offer to take you to dinner many times but never do would believe 100% if I offer to buy you a car or would you mistrust my words.The Dominican Constitution is clear and has NOTHING that creates mistrust in it but the Haitian constitution clearly says the WHOLE island is called Haiti even though they promise to change to Island of Santo Domingo while back but simply HAVE NOT!.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 5:44 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
DR has done everything that is suppose to do to have peace on the island. The prove that we are not the ones who mistrust is in the fact that we allow almost 2 million of Haitian to reside on our side with minimum incidents of violence.The problem is that NGOs and AfroCentrist have come to the conclusion that the only way to save Haiti is to make DR absorb their problems because is the easy way out. The real way out would be for Haitian to grill their politicians to the point that they do what is right for the general public. Ask your self how come Preval and Aristide never had a Documentary done to show their stealing and ruthless way of taking that belongs to the general public yet they have done like 20 Documentaries about sugar cane field which by the way provide free school to the kids of the worker and I should say very good schools when compared to Haiti and even some in DR.
Written by: Atabey, 20 Jan 2010 5:57 PM
From: United States, NYC
And if one considers the population projections for Haiti, wow DR is going to have to get serious or it's going to be engulfed by her neighbors problems to an extend unknown in her recent history. Of course, some people would rather not deal with this most pressing issue.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 6:04 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
Is easy for you, me and others to look for the solution that we think is logical but solutions to the problems in Haiti and DR should be up to the ones that have no option of coming and going when they please like many of us here.Lets face it for real how many times have you or I and others missed a meal or are about to miss one anytime soon due to monetary reasons. Yours and my food is safe in the refrigerator but many in DR don't have that privilege of saying that because of economic reasons and we both know that for a fact so is hard to tell that Dominican to bring another person on board that is going to make it harder for him or her to eat to accept it and move on. Is not as easy as it sounds.When I'm in DR which go to almost 7-10 times yearly I'm mostly going around to my old spots and it is still hard to make a living.
Written by: Atabey, 20 Jan 2010 6:19 PM
From: United States, NYC
Yes, Belly, we are part of the fortunate ones, but we also have family and perhaps property tied to the "old country" So we have a stake in what happens down there. I've tried to increase the discussion of perhaps sensitive issues, but issues that, nevertheless, have to be discussed anyway. The population Time Bomb that is constituted by the youthfulness of Haiti's population mix is not a figment, as some would have it, of my or anyones else's imagination. It's very painfully true and we would be remised if we thought the topic somehow "off-bound" because of current considerations. If this were a site dedicated to Haiti, then I would not be posting these concerns. But from a DR perspective, it's a real and pressing matter. Not going away, I'm afraid.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 6:30 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Atabey
Nothing is going to happen to your or my properties there just because we fight against immigration issue of DR.The reason why I fight against illegal immigration is because I have family that still live there in fact I'm there a lot of the time of my life and hopefully will be there for good in a couple of years so I have a very good reason to fight against illegal immigration because I want the country to be in better shape than when i left the first time not worse.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 6:57 PM
From: United States
Bliss highlighted,
DAGTAN DR is more advanced but more civilised. That's a low shot. POVERTY doesn't discriminate so be respectful. IF you want to ruin a country you isolate and in time it will turn on itself.
Bliss, I am very sorry, but I could not find any better words. I know that it sounds ugly and uneducated, I promise to find better language in the future.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 7:05 PM
From: United States
Belly,
We have not done anything to solve the problem that I posted and create the way for better relations between the DR and Haiti. i know full well that the Haitians have not abandon or remove their thinking that the island is called Haiti. This is a clear injury to get us upset about the current situation and it could part of our pre-conditions to come to the table.
However, Belly as you know full well the 7 plus million tainos and arawak natives that Colon found on the island in 1492 called the land 'Ayiti' which means mountainous land. Therefore, if we are to go back into the history of the true inhabitant of the land, then the name should be 'Ayiti' if the Haitians pronounce such term as 'haiti' then don't you think that that they have a point and we ought to investigate and put our historians to work and confirm such claims.
One thing i never feels comfortable about our culture and educational system which i attended until the 7th grade is hesitancy to dig into ou
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 7:11 PM
From: United States
our native history. i mean I visited the museo del hombre this past summer and no where i found this word around the place. So i decided to ask one of the monitors and he was not able to talk to me about it. I know i should have asked for the curator, but I did not know if it was even worthy.
i think that the immigration population is a real problem and no Belly, we did not take anyone, since they came without our permission. If our authorities were interested on the well being of the common man, trust me, Belly, the DR would have been Haitian free already.
Those jobs that are going to haitians should be going to Dominicans, so they are no forced to jump to sea looking for a better future. Instead they hire illegal haitians at a fraction of what Dominican will earn. i wish that the authorities will raid these job sites and arrest all illegals and their bosses for hiring illegal aliens. Moreover, hefty fines should be applied to those who hire illegals.
Belly, there is a
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 7:16 PM
From: United States
a lot of work ahead of us. I worry about us, my country first, my house first, lets get our house in order first, cure our people of our cultural misinformation that had been systematically fed in our brains. Belly, I have not idea if you attended school in the DR, but if you did not, i beg to ask those that did about how they felt when they started learning about who they were from a centrist point of view.
We suffer severe identity crisis during this process, it is not easy to let go of what you learned culturally and in school. But when you are confronted with the truth and the facts, then you start questioning even who you are as a person.
Belly, we have the job of educating our people and teaching them who we are, i mean who we really are, teach them about our African ancestry and the fact that our entirely island was once called 'Ayiti' by the natives, before it was called 'quisquella' knowledge is power Belly, this is possible with people like us pushing for it.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 7:20 PM
From: United States
Belly, finally, they might want to teach us that during our restauracion, the haitians actually fought alone side us to get rid of the Spanish Domination. Belly, even if we find that they had different intentions, but nonetheless it will show periods of cooperation between the two people. I mean the Americans liberated Cuba in 1898 with other intentions, but in the Cuba was free and they give credit to their arch rivals for such favor. Why not teach that in our schools. We have the know how and the scholars to do this belly, therefore, lets force our government to get under the grip of that limited number of elites that have poisoning our intelligence for almots 200 years.
Written by: Atabey, 20 Jan 2010 7:33 PM
From: United States, NYC
Belly,
On the issue of Haitian migration into the DR I see no disagreement between your position and mine. Sadly, I fear that the situation in Haiti will grow ever more difficult to sustain and yes, I believe as you do that some NGOs would very much want to see the massive problems of Haiti be absorbed by uniting both sides of the island. And this is going to push things to a breaking point. as I've stated before, people don't want to be told unpleasant facts, and when I state that Haiti's 6.7 million under 18 (UN 2007) and under population is a ticking population bomb, some people get awfully angry and resentful. This is a DR site and even though the tragedy that's affecting Haiti is devastating, the devastation as you and others have pointed out affect us all. The pent-up demographic statistics are not going to go away or be wishfully extrapolated into the distant future; it's going to bite really hard in the coming decade and then what will the deniers say?
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 7:37 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
What is the reason behind calling it "ayti" "Haiti" when nobody in the island has anything Indians left on either side the fact that Africans in the island of Santo Domingo call it Haiti is not a good enough reason for us to accept it because we call say that the island has been call Santo Domingo ever since 1492 and the indians trace back to the 8th century so if we keep going back how do we know that the ones before them didn't have a different name for it and how do we know who was in Santo Domingo in the 1st century you what i'm saying at one point you have to cut off and call it by the present owners preference don't you think. So the Island is called Santo Domingo ever since the indians were eliminated. So for us to just go back and call it Ayti how do we know were are not skipping who ever lived here in the 1st century or even before it.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 7:46 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
I think is funny that people like to go back into history until the African presence shows up the start from there. Remember that Spaniards were here before the Africans so should we call the island España because they would be the closest ancestors that we can trace back the farthest in this island. If we keep going back then we would call it planet earth and erase every border line because there is prove that at one point all the land didn't belong to anybody don't we. Don't believe the Afro-Centrist point of view that gets teach here in USA. For Dominican to accept their African ancestors and deny all others to me is not the way to go and we should never accept it because then we are denying and choosing who we are told we are not who we really are. Look at Tiger Woods catching fire for standing up and not denying all of his ancestor because they were hoping for him to apply the one drop rule but I'm glad he didn't fall for it.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 7:51 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
So if we are to teach our kids in school something that should include ALL ancestor not the pick and choose that the one drop rule that USA has in place. So for us to call our country Dominican Republic all we did was build our identity as a mix nation that we are since we didn't have the choice of being all Black or all White then we must have a name and identity that transcend and apply to all who fought to keep us free.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 7:59 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
One of the reason Haitian official have accepted to rename the Island Santo Domingo is because they went back in their own history book and found that they had no claim to rename the island because the previous owner still existed in the eastern side and still exist today which most come from Spaniard ancestors since they were the one who took it away from indians by eliminating the whole race. Haitian renamed it back to Haiti by trying the same thing killing all whites on their side but didn't accomplish it 100% like Spaniards did.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 7:59 PM
From: United States
Atabey, if I ever feel that you predict is about to happen, i be the first to get a rifle and go fight for my country. Trust me man, that is something that it can not happen and it will never happen. If anyone ever come forward with such ideas, i 'll understand his/her elimination.
However, we could indeed have, peaceful, respectful, and fully cooperative relationship. Both country were once beautiful and I seen part of Haiti that are amazing. Once the re-forestation of haiti begins and they be able to develop their tourism, things will get better.
I one day want to be able to travel to haiti on vacation, without having to deal with animosity between the countries. Moreover, i want to be able to live in the Dominican Republic that is free of such disgust and dislike for these people. Hey, i have a daughter and hell, if she decides to marry a haitian, i do not her to judged by a bunch ignorant SOBs because they think that these people lesser humans.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:07 PM
From: United States
Belly, very points. you see Belly, this is the reason why we must re-build from the bottom up the educational system in the DR. We'll initiate such process, since our educational infrastructure is more sound than that of the Haitians. And hopefully, they'll follow suit and do the same once they are able to rise from the rubbles in about 10-15 years from today.
Belly, your position is the same as mine, the only difference is that I call the current situation with education on the island and the fact that in the 21st century those old sayings and selected historic facts are still dominating.
I agree with you about the afro-centrict view in the U.S. it is clear to anyone that such views do not match who we, since we have been influenced by a series of genetics and we by all means are not pure. This were i want to spend more time talking to you. The fact that we are not pure, right off the back eliminates our heavy reliance on Spain's history as a vehicle for ours. We are not
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:14 PM
From: United States
any closer to Spain than to Africa. Yet, we insist i calling ourselves 'CRIOLLO' or 'CREOLE' which means, (local) and (white). We are a mixed people that have been blessed with many sources to pull from when defining ourselves. Once we understand that indeed we are mixed, then our vehicle for history will change and the current Spanish centrict view that our history insist in keeping will change.
i am advocating for all of those that contributed to our landscape and gave us those stories and customs that have allowed us to interact with our environment harmonically. Lets teach a little about everyone and their contributions and not only a single point of view, which is the flaw in the Afro-centrict point of view. Belly, we do the same, the only difference is that take the other side, which throughout history has demonized anything African and have deny me the right of learning about those Africans that worked on our land as slaves and then became free.
Whether, i like it or
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:18 PM
From: United States
not, African blood flows through my body, but no one dares to give credit to this group of people. off course in our world, it is easier to be Spaniards and that is sad, that in the 21st century are still debating such issues.
Finally, Belly, i totally agree with your statement about our mixed background. now, lets make sure that our history represent a mixed people of many backgrounds and genetics influences. It is possible Belly, and big part of the lifting is on our shoulders here in the U.S. as part of the ever more influential and powerful Dominican Diaspora on Dominican affairs back home.
Belly, lets celebrate, since a few yeas ago we have began the entry into our second generation. This means a lot and says a lot about our place in U.S. landscape.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:24 PM
From: United States
Belly said,
"Dagtan
One of the reason Haitian official have accepted to rename the Island Santo Domingo is because they went back in their own history book and found that they had no claim to rename the island because the previous owner still existed in the eastern side and still exist today which most come from Spaniard ancestors since they were the one who took it away from indians by eliminating the whole race. Haitian renamed it back to Haiti by trying the same thing killing all whites on their side but didn't accomplish it 100% like Spaniards did".
Understood Belly. However, let me inform you that if it was not for a series of events that culminated in the 1804 revolt, we'll speaking French today. See you, the Spaniards gave up the entire Island without any remorse for the Creole, poor whites and African Slaves that had produced so much for them before 1775. On this year the entire island was a French colony since spain simply packed up and left it for dead. Only due to
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:30 PM
From: United States
o
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:30 PM
From: United States
slave revolt in the west and the fear of their slaves rebelling, the people of the east began fighting back.
Belly, this is when the antihaitianismo begins, just as the antibellum whites did in the American South. The strategy was to demonize them as much as possible, so everyone will unite behind once single cause and that cause was to keep the newly African nation from taking everything. Also, Dessalines' actions did not help, since he was abusive and barbaric towards the people in the east. Even the blacks in the east disliked Dessalines.
If the French would have been able to end the uprising in the west, it was only normal for the introduction of more French into the Island and the eventual take over of their culture and language. Moreover, it was easier for the Creole and whites in the east to accept another European influence, but to have the relative of their slaves control them, was simply unthinkable and unacceptable. We can go for days, but our history is one of th
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:31 PM
From: United States
of the most romantic and beautiful in the caribbean. it is a shame that we do not exploit this privilege to the fullest.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 8:37 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
See you, the Spaniards gave up the entire Island without any remorse for the Creole, poor whites and African Slaves that had produced so much for them before 1775
They later got it back in 1809 and then we gained our independence from Spain in 1821 and named it properly Santo Domingo until we were invaded in 1822 then Duarte feel Spaniard were not doing anything against it so he took matter into his own hands by forming the Trinitarians. Most people think that from 1822-1844 Haiti were happily the owners and is not because in SFM it self didn't allow the Haitian flag to fly over it until 1833 which you can find in history of San Francisco which by the way was the first city who backed-up Duarte and the movement of independence. After SFM did as a whole city then others came into the movement that's why SFM is said to be a major player in the shaping of the whole country we know as Dominican Republic.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 8:58 PM
From: United States
Belly said,
"Most people think that from 1822-1844 Haiti were happily the owners" - I do not know who those people are, but they must be smoking some shit.
Belly said,
"They later got it back in 1809" - only after the Africans took over the west and the creole, poor whites and african slaves, went into panic mode.
Belly said,
"San Francisco which by the way was the first city who backed-up Duarte and the movement of independence". Belly, you forgot Monte Grande, which is the reason why we call ourselves Dominicans and not Hispanos. THESE TWO CITIES ARE THE DARLINGS OF OUR FREEDOM. The fact that they do not get more CREDIT is a shame. Once again blame Trujillo for centralizing our country into Santo Domingo.
Good job Belly!, keep it up, mi hermano de la otra madre. por lo meno tu eres uno de eso dominican/american que sabe la historia de nuestra tierra.
From: United States
Dagtan if I said anything offensive to you my sincere apologies. You are an educated thinking man. Life is too short to have any animosity towards anyone. I see you are like me read both sides of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
We are on this tiny piece of land so demonizing someone and treating them like second class citizen is pointless.
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 9:22 PM
From: United States
Thanks, Bliss. At the same time, may I remind you that living in the middle of the Dominico/Haitian interconnectedness, is rather unpopular on this site.
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 9:33 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan,
Dagtan said, : "only after the Africans took over the west and the creole, poor whites and african slaves, went into panic mode" I think it was more like fighting a war with no weapon which would have been a dumb move that would had given away the intentions from the beginning.
Dagtan said,
"Belly, you forgot Monte Grande, which is the reason why we call ourselves Dominicans and not Hispanos. THESE TWO CITIES ARE THE DARLINGS OF OUR FREEDOM" - This eventually will come out at least in SFM the history of the city is well known by most people and actually we use different history books than those of the capital and other places which is why the history is better known locally.
Dagtan said:
"Good job Belly!, keep it up, mi hermano de la otra madre. por lo meno tu eres uno de eso dominican/american que sabe la historia de nuestra tierra." - Gracias mi hermano I have to know the history to confront those trying to change it to their benefit. LOL
Written by: dagtan, 20 Jan 2010 9:46 PM
From: United States
Belly said,
"I have to know the history to confront those trying to change it to their benefit". LOL
Belly, from a guy that loves history and is able to back up what comes out of his mouth, a bit of food for though. The best historian are those that keep their heart out of the history and allow their brain to do all the talking. Since the heart suffers from emotions that corrupt the truthfulness of the facts and handicap the story teller from telling a fair and a fundamentally neutral set of events as they took place.
Therefore, i am happy to know that you do not tolerate those that try to change it to their benefit, just be careful not to be the victim of your own mission.
From: United States
nothing wrong with 2 people disagreeing. Human nature and I understand the psychology behind this ingrained hatred. The rich want to maintain the status quo. They do a good job brainwashing the mass but the outright nastiness became too much.
Again I appreciate everything the Dominican people and govt have done to help my people. At the end of the day we're all humans. I know it's a small percentage of the population that acts like this.
Again, I see what big business is doing in DR and Haiti and it's out of your hands and mine. The allmighty dollar will bury all prejudices real fast. Lot's of money is going to pour into Haiti and everyone wants a part. Leonel and Preval are being told what to do by those billions and billions of potential investment
Written by: Belly, 20 Jan 2010 10:07 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Dagtan
Therefore, i am happy to know that you do not tolerate those that try to change it to their benefit, just be careful not to be the victim of your own mission.
I learned a long time ago to tell my self the truth even is it hurts. My father taught me that a long time ago.I don't know if you ever got your hands on Haitian book of history and what they teach kids in school but in our school we are closer to the truth but not 100%. I had one of those book but my son dropped in the water and this is a true story unlike the dog ate my homework. Next time I'm there going to grab another.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 8:36 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
dagtan
Headline in todays El Caribe newspaper.
"President Preval refused Dominican soldiers coming in to Haiti as part of Minustah".
Happy now?
Learn some modesty and try to learn wisdom from those that have more experience than you. President Fernandez has the high ground anyway because he did offer to help and was turned down.
BTW The offer to help came originally from a European rep of Minustah to Fernandez, and the president carried the ball further without much consultation.
I hate to say I told you so, but, I told you so.
Nobody could have planned a better final outcome to the DR, of this "diplomatic faux pas".
Written by: dagtan, 21 Jan 2010 8:43 AM
From: United States
Generoso,
I do not take it as adefeat, instead it is a victory for government and our desire to head toward a future in which both people can co-exist peacefully and with maximum cooperation. The fact that Mr. Fernandez did not give in to the Dominican neo-cons and those that want to maintain the distance between the two people, shows that he is ready and maybe, the next person will use that courage to begin the repairing process.
I am happy, that the Haitian government said thanks, but no thanks, Mr. Fernandez. Keep it up Mr. Fernandez, have no fear and do not give in to the fear Mongers that love to live in the state of fear.
Generoso, we have earned and advanced our cause tremendously by having the desire to take such risk and it paid off, because the possibility of the loss of life is no longer a chance, but our stock rose (politically). As i said, as a civilian I hated the idea, but politically simply brilliant.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 8:52 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Dagtan
"Generoso, we have earned and advanced our cause tremendously by having the desire to take such risk and it paid off, because the possibility of the loss of life is no longer a chance, but our stock rose (politically). As I said, as a civilian I hated the idea, but politically simply brilliant"
G: No matter what his detractors say about him, President Fernandez is a brilliant man and world class politician.
Maybe he did anticipate what the Haitian response would be, after all, Preval was sitting a few chairs away from him when the proposal was made, and like a good poker player he could measure Preval's body language and reaction.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Fernandez the fox did outmaneuver the Haitians this time around. It is usually the other way around, maybe the Haitians are "shell shocked".LOL.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 8:57 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
In a way this reminds me of what could have been a political move of the Dominican Republic's grand master, and Machiavello's ideologue, Joaquin Balaguer.
President Fernandez has learned both from Juan Bosch and Joaquin Balaguer, many of their tricks and wise political moves.
One of my favorite Balaguer sayings:
"Place yourself under the mango tree and wait for the fruit to fall".
LOL
From: United States
Belly I won't respond to you. The truth is subjective. The person that writes the history books will put themselves in the best possible light. That's why you read both sides and somewhere in the middle is the truth. Your proud your son threw a book in the toilet. LMFAO and you said Haitians are stupid, barbaric and backwards.
I've seen some of your the sky is falling comments. The wind of change is coming.
From: United States
Dagtan,
the reason Preval declined is because it's too soon. Yes we appreciate the help however Haitians know how our brothers are treated over there. They're beaten, killed, hands chopped off at will. We know your countrymen don't value Haitian life so it's too soon for DR troops to come. Haitians are very aware of Rafael Trujillo and how he massacred unarmed men women and children so he could steal the land and import white people. As a man i'm suppose to protect a woman and a child. I know most Dominicans didn't participate in that. I know he whipped these poor people into a frenzy telling them the enemy is coming and got them to committ this attrocity. I also know Trujillo rewrote the history books in your country to justify his actions.
Dominicans say around 20k were killed and haitians say 40k again somewhere in the middle is the truth my guess is 30k.
we need to put this behind us because it's one island and we all need to get along.
Peace and love to everyone
From: United States
Generoso,
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Fernandez the fox did outmaneuver the Haitians this time around. It is usually the other way around, maybe the Haitians are "shell shocked".LOL.
Outmaneuver? Gloating when 100k 200k are dead and millions are displaced. show some class and grace. You think haitians are stupid classless barbaric, etc. You still think we don't need each other. we are all brothers and sisters on one small piece of land.
I found this site 3 days before the earthquake and I thought wow people on here are brutal. the earthquake happened and I thought people are people compassionate and caring. I guess now the "shock" is wearing this boards true colors are coming back
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 9:39 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
ignoramus
Dagtan and I weren't talking about the earthquake but a specific diplomatic event. That video you saw about Dominicans "chopping" some poor negro hands off happened in Colombia, and the perps were Colombian drug lords. By the way you express yourself, standing on your self righteous soapbox, just ascertains to the audience your wise choice in choosing your handle "ignoranceisbliss". Maybe you should have that motto tattooed in your forehead.
And what you said is very true: YOUR true colors of the constant fault finding, complaining, being stuck in the convenient historical past and always passing out the beggar bowl pleading mercy, are coming back with more vengeance now.
Written by: dagtan, 21 Jan 2010 10:03 AM
From: United States
Generoso,
Thank you for seeing what I saw a few days ago. And I can not believe that our divergen views have merge, sort of on the culmination of the political dance that was performed by Mr. Fernandez the last few days.
Generoso, not many are able to distinguish the political dance from political posturing. No, offense, mi hermano, but you tend to spend lots of time on the posturing side, while missing all the action on the dance floor. Remember, that the dance sometimes is ugly and out of steps, but in the end, the person needs to step aside and observe the dance from the balcony and see what is happening on the dance floor and then make their decisions base on what they see.
Mr. Fernandez, crlearly stepped away from the dance floor and got on the balcony, observing the dance floor and realized that there was much to gain from offering to dance, even if rejected.
Generoso, you do not know me and I do not know you, but I assure you that both of our sources are good.
From: United States
genoroso,
You prove my point again. Name calling is childish these are historical facts. You and I know it. Just like the south in America use tou abuse all minorities and America has come to term with it. Just like haitians massacred lots of whites. Its a historical fact.
I don't grand stand and I'm not a beggar. I told you why Preval said no. You and I know what I said is true. The intellectuals on here love to refer to black people as monkeys etc. These are facts.
Columbian drug lords? I always said the dominican people are good people that want the same as I to feed their children. There's a few who like to distort the facts play with the numbers to scream the sky is falling and that's a fact. It's called propoganda. Tattoed on my forehead. LOL. original.
Dominicans want haitians to apologize for Boyer and Dessalines? I apologize. Now apologize for Trujillo and how Dark skin Haitians are treated in DR today?
I address Dagtan and you seperately.
From: United States
Where getting off the subject at hand. 100k+ people just died and millions displaced. Generoso if it makes you feel better about yourself to belittle and demean Haitians then keep wasting your energy.
Written by: dagtan, 21 Jan 2010 11:17 AM
From: United States
Bliss said,
"Dominicans want haitians to apologize for Boyer and Dessalines? I apologize. Now apologize for Trujillo and how Dark skin Haitians are treated in DR today"? Bliss, I will include dark skin Dominicans, we do not fare any better in the upper strata of my country. As a mulato, I consider myself a dark person of mixed decent, so I am not white, but not African black either. However, I am consider black in the upper levels of society in the DR. Hey, who knows, I might be denied entry into some of those exclusive clubs, even though I have the money to afford them.
Now, that is what I am talking about. Bliss sign me up to make this happen. We are two people who will never be more than an inches apart, due to our interconnected history. Neither history could be taught effectively whithout the other.
Our history, is a set of reactions to past, present and future Haitian's actions and behaviors.
From: United States
Your right. I did say dark skin haitian not light skin or mulattoes. That was ignorant the way I phrased my comment and it wasn't geared towards you. I apologise. I have let these intellectuals get the best of me. There are no real differences just percieved differences to keep the two at bay. Sorry and no more from me.
Written by: Belly, 21 Jan 2010 12:32 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Bliss,
"Your proud your son threw a book in the toilet. LMFAO and you said Haitians are stupid, barbaric and backwards.I've seen some of your the sky is falling comments. The wind of change is coming."
Where did you get that I said I was proud my son threw the book in the water (not toilet) .Plus can you point out where I said Haitian were stupid,barbaric and backwards. Do you have a English comprehension problem or something.
My question to you is WHY ARE MAKING STUFF UP ABOUT ME?
You can't find anything against me now you have to make it up, well let me tell you that's not the way people with enough knowledge act when presented with the truth.
From: United States
between you atabey and telemec old trini, carlos franc,genroso. one in the same. People are something else. If I confuse you with someone else than Im wrong but I have a good memory. Yes I have an english comprehension problem I didn't major in English in college it was economics. I'm going for my master maybe I'll change it to english for you.
I hope your kid learns to respect other people races, religions and beliefs.
Don't change your original comment and then deny whay you say.
I've been following this site 3 days before the earthquake and you guys were brutal. Degrading another human doesn't make you superior it makes you look small. The only people that will join in is someone just as small and uneducated.
One person on here said haitians are necrophiliacs and I thought that was funny. HAITIANS ARE STUPID. LOL. SAY THE GOVERMENT IS CORRUPT SCREWING THE PEOPLE YES you 1000% right. but daming a whole nation shame on you as a man and a father.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 12:57 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Ignoramus
Sorry but I am kind of dark too, "indio" as the Dominicans say, certainly not Aryan or close to it.
Sure I will apologize for the bastard Trujillo, he not only killed thousands of Haitians, but he killed thousands of Dominicans as well, including members of my immediate family.
Dark skin Haitians and white skin or mulatto Dominicans are treated the same, it all depends on their particular "class structure". If the mulatto or dark skin Haitian has money and is educated, then the red carpet comes out, if he is a white, broke and unemployed then he is not very welcome, although Dominicans will still be charitable to an extent. Dominicans are really understandably more "classists" than racists of any degree.
We have many black Dominicans and "cocolos" or english speaking blacks that have integrated well into the DR customs and culture, same as arabs, Chinese and Japanese. Most of the DR armed forces are composed of dark skin Dominicans, probably of Haitian descent.
Written by: Atabey, 21 Jan 2010 12:58 PM
From: United States, NYC
Higüey.- El secretario de las Fuerzas Armadas, teniente general Rafael Peña Antonio, declaró hoy que la decisión del Gobierno haitiano de rechazar los militares dominicanos es soberana y que la deben dirimir los mandatarios de ambos países.
“Nosotros lo que queremos es ayudar y si ellos no quieren tropas, eso es lo que podemos hacer, hay una situación calamitosa y nosotros decidimos eso, pero es una decisión de ellos que hay que respetar”, expuso el alto oficial.
No obstante, Peña Antonio dijo que desde que ocurrió el terremoto enviaron un general a Jimaní para mantener el control de la zona.
Dijo que todos los equipos de inteligencia de las Fuerzas Armadas han sido desplazados hacia la frontera porque hay personas que aprovechan la situación para delinquir.
Written by: Belly, 21 Jan 2010 1:00 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Bliss
I have not change anything and if you follow all my comments you will come to yours senses that you are wrong. When ever you go after somebody here make you sure you can back-up what you are saying because otherwise it makes you look foolish in the crowd.
Written by: Atabey, 21 Jan 2010 1:00 PM
From: United States, NYC
Santo Domingo.- La Secretaría de Salud Pública informó ayer que cientos de pacientes haitianos que han sido operados en hospitales del país empezarán a ser trasladados desde hoy a un amplio albergue ubicado en la comunidad haitiana de Font Parisien, situada a 20 kilómetros de Jimaní, provincia Independencia.
Se recuerda que los hospitales de la capital y del interior tenían serias dificultades para dar de alta a pacientes haitianos víctimas del terremoto, debido a que no hay lugares suficientes para albergarlos.
En tanto, la Fundación Sur Futuro recibió en el Aeropuerto las Américas a 68 médicos enviados por el Senado de Puerto Rico que sustituirán a los 102 galenos que están brindando sus servicios en Jimaní.
From: United States
I'm on the outside looking in. Maybe I'm right or you're right. Maybe it's perception. Let's get off this subject. It's a waste of time. I'm tired. Lot's of luck to everyone here in their endeavors. I don't make myself look foolish I know what I'm talking about.
Belly I remember some of your tasteless comments but I have bills to pay and clients to see.
We are all brothers. I know about class system it's the same in Haiti. Lot's of luck to everyone here.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 1:24 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
dagtan
You had to ruin it didn't you?
Do you always have an urgency to win an argument? Even if it is obvious that you were dead wrong?
Like Reagan used to say: Here we go again!
The facts are that I was right and you were wrong, I was modest enough to water down your failure to understand, simple historical facts that can not be changed overnight, with just one single magnanimous gesture, and restrained from "chest thumping" over your "faux pas".
Posturing is not a very nice word to brand my kind of Dominican patriotism. Look up the definition, smarty pants.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 1:25 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Continued 2
Atabey, Belly, popon, oldschool, pepe32, lautaro, yumnuk3, vacanos, myself and many others are always in the front lines, with lots of compassion, but also holding our head high, and our Dominican flag still higher. As you know this is a Dominican site in English, founded by charitable minds to promote peace and better understanding, not really to make money or gain political mileage.
Me and the rest of the patriots in the daily sparring and discourse at DT, are DEFENDING our country, sometimes against the rest of the world, and making sure that the truth and only that is communicated.
From: United States
You should love your flag and country. Also respect others. Demeaning another human and laughing behind there backs makes you a coward. Be a man and say what you mean to their face. You guys need to stay where you are. Belly I rest my case those are the culprits I'm talking about. One in the same.
Thanks all and God bless.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 1:37 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
belly
"You can take a horse to water, but can't make him drink".
Maybe what we have here is........"a failure to communicate" (Cool hand Luke).
or maybe "Lost in translation" with gorgeous and sexy Scarlet Johansson.
Or last but not least it is all "Grist for the mill" By Baba Ram Dass. LOL.
Written by: josean, 21 Jan 2010 1:38 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Professor,
Please stop!
I am hearing Violins and you are making me cry!
I have images of you in a Superman suit floating in the air in front of a waving Dominican flag as the narrator says for “TRUTH, JUSTICE and the Dominican WAY!”
Written by: Belly, 21 Jan 2010 1:41 PM
From: United States, Seattle, W.A.
Bliss
"I remember some of your tasteless comments but I have bills to pay and clients to see.
We are all brothers. I know about class system it's the same in Haiti. Lot's of luck to everyone here."
Well post them here so we can all see them, Since you claim they exist. Then why not prove it here for us to see it. Up to this day I haven't made a comment about Haiti that I won't stand by it today.For you to claim my comments are tasteless, well the truth sometimes is tasteless but doesn't mean it should be hidden because it is still the truth. I just think is funny you claim to have prove of something that doesn't exist yet fail to show it here.
Written by: generoso, 21 Jan 2010 2:17 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
josean
So funny, maybe in campesino guayabera and pants, with a cane hat and a cachimbo, and a machete in my waist, LOL.
But no violins please. I like the Dominican accordion and fast beat of the drums of merengue music in the background.LOL.
Or do you like Wagner's "die valkyrie" better?. LOL.
Written by: josean, 21 Jan 2010 2:35 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Chacabana will do Professor!
Written by: dagtan, 21 Jan 2010 2:41 PM
From: United States
Generoso stated:
Atabey, Belly, popon, oldschool, pepe32, lautaro, yumnuk3, vacanos, myself and many others are always in the front lines, with lots of compassion, but also holding our head high, and our Dominican flag still higher. As you know this is a Dominican site in English, founded by charitable minds to promote peace and better understanding, not really to make money or gain political mileage.
Me and the rest of the patriots in the daily sparring and discourse at DT, are DEFENDING our country, sometimes against the rest of the world, and making sure that the truth and only that is communicated.
All I can do is, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha and Ha.
Generoso, you know what people like you are called: FLAG WAVERS, yes that is the only contribution they make to the future of the people.
WOW, WOW, WOW, I can not stop laughing at this guy.
Written by: cvzdez, 22 Jan 2010 12:29 AM
From: United States
I am haitian and do not think it is a good idea. To be a haitian from a dominican prospective is like to be shit. That may not be everyone, but is is the genreal mindset. Because we have historical tensions, Why bring people to police who as a nation have an Anti-Haitianism. Dominicans defin themselves by adamantly refuting any Haitian ancestery. I thins in such a tense situation as this. Police brutality could be more prevelant.
Written by: cvzdez, 22 Jan 2010 12:30 AM
From: United States
I am haitian and do not think it is a good idea. To be a haitian from a dominican prospective is like to be shit. That may not be everyone, but is is the genreal mindset. Because we have historical tensions, Why bring people to police who as a nation have an Anti-Haitianism. Dominicans defin themselves by adamantly refuting any Haitian ancestery. I thins in such a tense situation as this. Police brutality could be more prevelant.
Written by: cvzdez, 22 Jan 2010 12:36 AM
From: United States
. Let this not detract from the good that has been done by D.R. over the past few days of the crissis. I must admit they have shown compansion to the haitian people as a Nation. But Lets be honest people get tired of giving. This would cause to many problems. Peopl already are tiring of the excess amount of Haitians crossing the border. I Just want my country to have it's own shit to be quite honest. I think Haiti needs a strong leader ship and would be better of with a good dictator that would look out for the nation like a fahther does it's child. Every nation goes throught this stage before reaching democracy. I think haiti has had to many other sovereignties putting their hands in it's pot to only benifit their country. We need a government that will stand up for haiti. I also think there are to many micro organizations in haiti.
Written by: cvzdez, 22 Jan 2010 12:43 AM
From: United States
Some things should work as a collective. Such as agriculture, transportation, education, infrastructure and health. I also think that Haiti not having multiple citizenship for Haitian born diaspora had been to it's detrament. they need to give the diaspora and incentive to return to the country and contribute it's knowledge to the country, we have been Hemoragin our professional to other countries, DR, US, frances Cuba, Canad.. and others.. leaving few the chance to come back and contribue in a polictical/ organization aspect.. there are so many things that need to be done in Haiti those create thousands of JObs, but the problem is that the Jobs are not provided to students in the country but to outsourced organization and countries such as UN, ect. I appreciate the help of these countries to an extent but I am tired of People fishing for the Haitian people I want them to pass me the fishing rod and let me get my own fish. this is also the fault of the Haitian Gov't.
Written by: cvzdez, 22 Jan 2010 12:51 AM
From: United States
Even if you give the Job to an ouside entity, but require that they hire a set amount of Haitian professional. So many problems. That exsist that is beyont just haitian gov't. Haiti just need a strong hand I was born in Haiti and I am a women. If they gave me this country if I could hold double citizen, I would have run for office. but People would be angry at me because if it is not in the interest of my people of our furture our legacy I would not let it take place. People hate casrto, but guess what, there are many things that that nation does not suffer from and it's people have a minset. A sense of order and stability. One day it may become a democracy, The us or any other big country wwill know they can not sit in it's waters because it serves their nation. All govern't are a work in progess and some of the up and coming nations are the ones that where dictaors. Now they are becoming free capital societies, bui they have a base a foundation.
Written by: generoso, 22 Jan 2010 3:34 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
cvzdez
Your comments are bienvenue, make a lot of sense, and most carry with them the power of the truth.
From: United States
I agree with 99% of what you say. Haiti needs jobs and education. The biggest thing is needs is to root out the rampant corruption to give it a chance. There's no real checks and balance. The guy signing the check, keeps the books, distributes the funds. It's haitians stealing from haiti that is screwing the country over. NOONE wants a handout but these guys act like the money that comes into the country is theirs. Haiti needs to hire experts and come up with a plan.
Rooting out corruption, jobs and education. This tragedy could be a major springboad to creating jobs for the people and creating a new Haiti. Hopefully this will stop the cycle.
Those that control information has the power. The internet is the great equalizer.
From: United States
I agree with 99% of what you say. Haiti needs jobs and education. The biggest thing is needs is to root out the rampant corruption to give it a chance. There's no real checks and balance. The guy signing the check, keeps the books, distributes the funds. It's haitians stealing from haiti that is screwing the country over. NOONE wants a handout but these guys act like the money that comes into the country is theirs. Haiti needs to hire experts and come up with a plan.
Rooting out corruption, jobs and education. This tragedy could be a major springboad to creating jobs for the people and creating a new Haiti. Hopefully this will stop the cycle.
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it is a bad bad bad bad idea to send Dominican soldier into haiti,,,,,they will think we came to get them off the strip of land they manage to take over centuries
Sending Dominican military into Haiti is a dumb-dumber move and a lose-lose situation for the DR,
that will reverse whatever goodwill has been generated by our relief efforts.
As the social situation in Haiti worsens and the populace awakens from their state of shock and grief,
any Dominican military in Haiti will be in be in additional harms way and will have target posted in their back. If the Dominican military ever use their weapons and cause a casualty, heaven help us with the finger pointing and accusations that will follow, and international condemnation.This suggestion is a bad idea, and must be voted down.
Pave the streets of the neighbourhoods of La Romana and other DR cities. Recover the colonial zone's decaying buildings. Invest into our nation's healthcare and education systems. We have plenty of ways to spend money in our own nation before keep sending money to Haiti as if we were rich. We aren't!!!
Back to reality guys. I am deeply touched by the terrible events in Haiti but I am also aware that we cannot afford to give anything more than we have already done.
What are you talking about, Martha said the streets in La Romana are paved with Milk and Honey!
Everything is perfect EAST of the Toll Plaza!
We should let the Minustah and the US troops clean out Haiti not us.
Go carefully, especially with regard to history betweent he two, but JEEESH! the hypocrisy!
Unfortunately, for us this is a double edge knife, which it does not matter which way we go, we are going to sustain wounds. The question here, which is worst, to be seen by the IC as a country that did not contributed to the arm forces supply or run the risk of losing personnel and worsening the already bleak relations.
I am of the school of thoughs that believe in taking the necessary risks, for the consequences of taking none will be far reaching and damaging for our future. Hence, on this instance, I will support the introduction of troops and allow the
I will give them as much rope as possible and let them hang themselves. We can not continue giving them the ability to label us as uncooperative and unwilling to create a situation in which relations can be reinvigorated.
I happen to support Mr. Fernandez's decision, he is thinking like a political leader and not a civilian. That is his job, to think freely of civil influences and see the political landscape that very few civilians understand to begin with and make decisions based on that landscape. I love to see politicians be forced to do the political dance that they were put in there for it, something that it is not often necessary when dealing domestically.
You are right if you are thinking like an ordinary citizen, but if you think with a political mind, then it all makes sense to you. Trust me, my civilian mind tells me no, because of the many reasons already stated by some of you. However, the political arena is far more complicated than our simple day to day lives and it often does not match its complications and distractions.
Politically the Dominican government is doing the right thing, while socially, they might face some resistance from those that often like to be on cautious side and those who do not want to let go their mistrust of the haitian people. I like to think that this is a real test for both people.
For us this will prove whether we can actually trust the hatians to respect our intentions and see us as any other foreing nation lending a much needed hand. As for the haitians, this will be a test to their people trust or mistrust in us and show how much they appreaciate our lending hand.
This is the best option to take if DR military intervention is needed, particularly to stop the inevitable massive influx of destitute Haitians. Already a mayor of one of the border towns announced the crossings of 10,000 Haitians in only one single day. We should however continue with our solidarity as civilians to support relief efforts, to do otherwise would only create additional problems rather then to solve or eliminate them.
I get your point but as a person who have dealt and been to Haiti many times trust me the mistrust is there it just hasn't come up because they are still in shock. When casualties do happen by either USA or UN who you think they going to blame for it. If you talk to Haitian they are already complaining that USA is invading them NOW. Trust me I'm talking from a first hand experience that anything we have done so far is going to be washed away if any casualty is to happen with a FAA soldier inside Haiti.To me is the opposite after everything we have done all we have to do is seat back and wait to see how they react to future relations between the 2 countries because as it stands now we have a opportunity and we can't waste it. Remember the "bite the hand that feeds you" policy in this case has proven to be more effective for us against NGOs.
Yes, indeed I know that the mistrust is there and it will take time for anyone to see it. It is human nature to hide their personal feelings when trying to survive, once the fear of survival disappear, humans tend to return to their normal behaviors. This is the time taht I want to see and see how each side reacts. It is clear that the Dominican government and many people who are fearful of the haitian plague have virtually put their guards down and are allowing the good to take place, but wait till that guilt disappear and then we are back to square one.
My experience with hatians and haiti tells me that it will be a high friction situation and that there will be a mountain to climb for the Dominican soldiers to be trusted and taken as cooperators by the haitian people. The level of mistrust from both sides is at its highest and very difficult to measure its influence in the streets and government levels.
However, I tend to look at the bright side and hope
Political ingenuity and naivete of historical relations between the DR and Haiti will applaud such a dumb move.
The DR has done enough for Haiti, as a matter of fact much more than we are really able to, because the DR is a kind and compassionate country.
To send Dominican troops into Haiti for peacekeeping would be disastrous, and an inducement for havoc. This insanity will never be actually carried out, and it is a "poisoned gift" invitation, that is being used as bait by those that do not have the best interest of the DR in mind.
Anyone well versed with the MO of the Dominican army, and most armies, is that they are not really trained for police actions and fail miserably in that sense, unless they are MP's, or special UN soldiers trained specially for peace keeping missions.
A nightmare scenario would be to place a Dominican soldier, armed with an automatic weapon, facing a crowd of Haitian looters armed with machetes, and the foreseeable regrettable consequences.
You want to give Haitians some sense of security in regards to our troops being there, fine SEND THE TROOPS WiTHOT GUNS!!
Keep the guns on our side of the border or whatever, this should be a strictly relief effort you know need "Guardias" there slapping people and looking menacing with guns in the midst of chaos, send some infantry men to help dig the rubble, send Medical staff mostly, send engineers and electricians and construction personnel, DR doesn't need to send 1,300 troops with rifles what the heck for?
Its so sad to see my country men feel this way about another human being, you rather perpetuate a bad episode in our histories than to accept the fact that the people there are suffering beyond anyone's imagination.
If there was an earthquake in Germany, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, do you think they US or UN would intervene because at one point they were at war?
Mi gente you need to stop being so selfish and cynical and truly com
Mi gente you need to stop being so selfish and cynical and truly come together as a people to give aid, I can understand how the situation in DR has desensitized a lot of you to the suffering of anyone but your own, but this is a test on our part to see if the Dominican Republic can be accepted into the IC and a contributing actor, from what I see here we are nowhere near ready to be a part on the world stage we are still too selfish and stupid to see the reality of this dire situation.
"My corazon llora por mi patria, pero llora mas todavia por la ignorancia de su gente"
-Me
On the other hand reinforcing the border and posting the majority of the DR army, navy and air force near the Haitian border, is a necessity, most indispensable and very recommended move.
DR soldiers and officers could assist in logistics, communications, surveillance, border peacekeeping, control, and prevention of contraband and illegal entries.
The DR air force should be permanently moved to Barahona air force base, and all the Dominican officers rotated periodically to serve in border posts.
A good percentage of the DR navy force and headquarters should be moved without any more delay to base Naval de las Calderas in Bani.
To have our military in comfortable do-nothing posts in the city, should be a thing of the past.
SEND THE TROOPS WiTHOT GUNS!!
Really? WOW how much love for Dominican you really have? Como dicen "con amigos como tu no necesito enemigo". I can't believe you said .. Oh! wait you probably never been to DR or Haiti right?
When was the last time you visited the island.
We did send civilians without security or guns and look what happened. The unarmed Dominican and Colombian civilians that were in Haiti trying to help, were viciously attacked and shot by unruly mobs.
Haitians have recent violent history of food riots and mayhem, and they are certainly not very peaceful and orderly nations like the Japanese for example.
Some of the news crews that you see in TV have side weapons and bodyguards that are in the other side of the cameras.
The reason the aid has had such a difficulty to be distributed is the security problem in the distribution. A Dominican civil defense truck handing out rations was assaulted by a mob and all the contents emptied in minutes, with some wounded and beat up pretty bad.
I see your point of concern and I share with you many of those concerns, however, you are coming across like a fear monger and indeed your comments prove that. People there is dangers in every operation that involve military personnels and we have had our share of incidents over the centuries with Haiti. However, this is precisely the reason why it is time to challenge such past and tryo to correct it, now the conditions on the ground are open for humantarian actions, not military actions.
If this deployment was in time of normacy and relatively calm, them, I will be totally against such actions, since they will have the potential for chaos and friction.
This is not the first time that an army from nation with a past of friction is sent to another country for humanitarian assistance.
Lets stop the fear mongering and hope for the best if the government indeed decides to send troops. My civilian mind tells me no, but politically is simply brilliant.
Sorry my dear friend and Professor but I must disagree!
Tell that to those who were/are their Victims in:
Pearl Harbor
Bataan
Korea
China
Just to name a few of the atrocities against humanity; and to the Amazon Forest that they are destroying, not out poverty and despair like the Haitians are destroying their forests, but out of pure greed.
Not to mention the Whales!
We did send civilians without security or guns and look what happened. The unarmed Dominican and Colombian civilians that were in Haiti trying to help, were viciously attacked and shot by unruly mobs.
That's What I'm talking and I just think is crazy for IronThinker to even bring up the idea of having unarmed Dominican trying to keep order. Why do people have this idea that Haiti is like a light switch that you can turn it on and boom everything is perfect and everybody is educated and life would be perfect and put away 200 years of problem in a heartbeat. I just think is funny that people think Haiti can be fixed in as little as 10 years. In my opinion those over optimistic go away quick because of the same failure of seeing that long term help don't mean the same amount of year in all countries. Long term in Cuba could be 10 years but long term in Congo could be 60 years and that's what the one helping have failed to see.
Time frame for Haiti by many experts is about 50 years, to get back to the 1980's. And by that time the whole world would have advanced exponentially another 100 years to 2160.
josean
I was awaiting your swift reaction, from under the rubble. LOL. I had in mind the late Japanese, not ancient kamikaze and warlord WWII Japanese. Study the modern concept of Kaizen for your next assignment. You ban is temporarily reinstated.LOL.
Another episode of "fuzzy thinking" . Your statement is contradictory as usual "This is not the first time that an army from nation with a past of friction is sent to another country for humanitarian assistance" .
The MINUSTAH is an armed peace keeping force, we have already sent the DR army in humanitarian assistance, having our soldiers join the MINUSTAH is another matter altogether.
Fear should not be mistaken by caution. I suggest you read the Art of War, By Sun Tzu, and get back to me in about 20 years.
And please stop addressing me directly with such nonsense, ridiculous and preposterous assumptions, again I was not directing my comments at you.
Time frame for Haiti by many experts is about 50 years, to get back to the 1980's. And by that time the whole world would have advanced exponentially another 100 years to 2160.
In my opinion 50 years sounds close enough to a realistic number. I wonder how much is going to cost to rebuild and how long would be a return of investment if it were to happen. Even if Haiti gets back to the 1980s levels that is still not success at all, of course is better than today but far from being successful. Many people on TV are already starting the talk of getting Haiti back to what it was a week ago.So to me once those levels are reach we are going to see the drop in donations. Just look at CNN they are already switching to include more topics and is only been less than a week.
In media language is is called "viewer fatigue" instead of "battle fatigue", that the soldier can not stand many continuous days and nights without proper rest and sleep, before breaking down and his skills become depreciated.
The subject matter has been milked to the max by CNN specially and other news organizations. The mercenary newsmen are out for blood and are even creating situations to increase sympathy and stir emotions further.
But the viewing public is fatigued and is now searching for R&R (rest and recuperation). Haiti is becoming old news, and the news crews like hungry sharks, will start looking for new avenues to
increase their ratings and boost their viewership. It is all entertainment folks.
dagtan
Another episode of "fuzzy thinking" . Your statement is contradictory as usual "This is not the first time that an army from nation with a past of friction is sent to another country for humanitarian assistance" .
The MINUSTAH is an armed peace keeping force, we have already sent the DR army in humanitarian assistance, having our soldiers join the MINUSTAH is another matter altogether.
Fear should not be mistaken by caution. I suggest you read the Art of War, By Sun Tzu, and get back to me in about 20 years.
And please stop addressing me directly with such nonsense, ridiculous and preposterous assumptions, again I was not directing my comments at you.
You are such a baby man, take it like a man and defend your position without insults. BTW, my statements are not contradictory, they might be when compared to yours, since your comments are one dimensional and unprogressive. You know, even a child knows what your next post is going to look like.
Insults?LOL. "my comments are one one dimensional and unprogressive". No, not really I enjoyed "Avatar" in 3-D and thought it was a very progressive movie. LOL.
Ok, I am a child and a baby, I concede, now I have someone other than my mother calling me "my baby". LOL. Are you happy?
Now back to the subject matter.
Your agreement to the proposal to send armed Dominican troops to Haiti as part of Minustah, to be exact, is such a wacko idea, as the hypothetical situation in the case there was a major earthquake in Iran and a scenario where an order restitution situation emergency arose, and a proposal emerges to send Israeli defense force troops (IDF) to Iran as part of a peacekeeping UN mission. You can guess what would happen to the poor IDF soldiers. Same thing different places, different faces.
I really hate this, but once again I am forced to reply to your misrepresentation of facts and information in order to make them fit into your frame of mind. Also, I do not want this to become yet, another lenghty engagement, but to make the assertion that the Israeli/Iranian issue is the same as that of the DR/Haiti, is really pushing the boundaries of reality.
First of all, the conditions between the DR/Haiti is based on past injuries that have only been maintained alive by the convenience of certain groups on both side of the border. Moreover, have you ever heard the Dominican leader calling for the destruction of Haiti or vice-versa. Does the DR and haiti have all their weapons pointed at each other awaiting their armageddon? Does the DR sents its planes for fly over and spy missions over haitian territory? Does the DR deny the existance of Haiti or vice-versa? Does the DR leaves the room when the Haitian counterpart comes up to the podium or vice-versa?, cont
I agree with you that there might be a group of people that want things to be like this, but that is not the case. I do not think that the injuries committed by the Haitians toward us are going to bring both sides to such extreme HATE. We do not trust each other, but when it comes to HATE, I want to believe that there is very little of that.
One of our (Dominican) soldiers kill some Haitians (even if they are criminals) and every Dominican in Haiti would be in danger and if any Dominicans died in responses it would be even worse.You see the US and MINUSTAH can kill a bunch of Haitians in their "peacekeeping" but the reality is that even with all the " good feelings" today a similar action would be viewed very different if it was from the military of my country!
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, more so if instead of a horse, you are dealing with a very thick headed burro.
Only way is to light a torch and show the burro the torch and then go behind the burro slowly, that makes him aware that you have a torch in your hands. Before fire is applied to his behind, all of of a sudden the burro will start moving away from the fire and hurries forward making complaining noises. True story. LOL.
Don't worry about how many times I've been to DR or Haiti.
You my friend are so concerned with keeping the little bit of Economical egotism you've gained selling "Gallina Viejas" en "villa Mella that you fail to see beyond the safety of your little glass case of emotion.
You're scared that Haitians will now be seen as people and maybe even find out they are more compassionate than Dominicans. you'd rather see them wither and die without even attempting to come to some sort of reasonable contingency planning.
FYI, The DR Civil Patrol has been first on the scene since the event, not once have they said they have been attacked. And as far as a food truck being rushed, come on they Rush "Inespre" trucks just like that in DR when NOT in crisis so what's your point? Yo he visto mujeres matandose por platanos en un super mercado asi que no me vengas con esa muela palomo.
"Your judgements on the human condition only serves to reinforce your detachment from it."
Pepe, I hear what you are saying and yes maybe my view my not be as centric and dismentional as you might want to, that is life when you at the facts and stay from making assumptions.
Finally, I do not know what kind of interests you guys have in the DR, but if you only know a fraction of mines, I promise you' ll be pretty shocked. So I only do not have economic interests, but also it is my country at the end of the day. But I'll not allow these conditions to prevent me from making the most factual comments even if I or you do not like to hear it.
I do not like to play barrio politics, so refute my position and try to connect our status with Haiti to that of Israel with Iran. Talk about BURRO, LOL.
I didn't know you sold gallinas? If so how much? I heard that gallina viejas make the best soup.LOL.
And Villa Mella is not so far from me and easy to get to from Josean's "metro". LOL.
"You my friend are so concerned with keeping the little bit of Economical egotism you've gained selling "Gallina Viejas" en "villa Mella that you fail to see beyond the safety of your little glass case of emotion."=========
I was born and raised in SFM and unlike you my money comes from a Computer science degree and building software nothing to do with Gallinas and if it did I wouldn't deny it because business is business.
"You're scared that Haitians will now be seen as people."===============
Once again you are wrong I have donated 3 times to Yele Haiti foundation and been to Haiti 13 times already so I have always seen Haitian as humans and have a track record to prove it unlike you once again.
"Your judgements on the human condition only serves to reinforce your detachment from it."=====
Once again I show my support for Haitians by action not comments on a forum like you. cont...
Please edit writing from this stupid iPhone.
dagtan
Your limitations are clearly visible to all. Your ego is taking necessary space in your brain and in your body, you need to have an emergency cyclonic colonic irrigation, meditate for maybe 20 years, travel the world, read a library full of books, and then maybe , and just maybe you will start to have a little understanding, of the subjects you are attempting to give your naive and sophomoric opinions on.
Like the master said serving tea, that was pouring all over the cup of the would be apprentice:
I can not teach you anything.......just like your cup, your head is so full of preconceptions that any knowledge and new information will just be wasted, and will wash away.
Dagtan BTW I read you bragging you have a six figure income......wow..... Can I have a loan?..... Pleeeeease to get some books and stuff? Just a little will do, like US$5,000 and I promise to pay you back double as soon as the DR sends their troop contingent to Haiti. LOL.
knowing keyword like INESPRE and Gallinas Viejas doesn't make you an expert in Dominican politics it actually makes it more obvious that you don't know anything since those are the first keywords that came to your little mind(whatever is left) that you haven't gone past the High school level in either DR or USA.
"Yo he visto mujeres matandose por platanos en un super mercado asi que no me vengas con esa muela palomo"
by the way you used the Dominican word "muela" out of content which explain the difficulties you have grasping the local knowledge of the Dominican language.
Las palabras se toman de donde bienen asi es que duerme tranquilo, Que yo e visto muchos como tu.
I didn't know you sold gallinas? If so how much? I heard that gallina viejas make the best soup.LOL.
And Villa Mella is not so far from me and easy to get to from Josean's "metro". LOL.
LOL sssshshshsshsh that's my side business after a long day at the office don't spell it out in the public here LOL but I can give you a good deal. LOL
Belly, las gallina vieja son mas cara que Los pollo gringo, dile eso a thinker. Lol.
Eso yo lo se, Mi prima es una experta haciendo sancocho. Don't expect IronThinker to know the difference in favor of the Pollo criollo y gringo he probably never been to DR he just happened to heard a couple of keywords in conversation which give away who he is hanging out with. Inespre the Dominican version of welfare and People fighting for a Platano in Villa Mella is his local knowledge of DR.
Best laugh I have had all day. LOL.
Can I trade you some of these posters here like for a dozen gallinas? Please?
You can have the high maintenance philosopher and theoretician dagtan for 5 pollitos.LOL.
Durante las espera de los pollitos, indicale a generoso, que los quiere todos verde, este era mi color favorito. Es increible, que nosotros estamos hablando de pollo y barbaridades, pero si que me traen muchas memorias.
La cruelda de animales en nuestro pais, santisimo. LOL.
General
Cash only and all sales are final.... LOL
Dagtan
Yo solo vendo pollito criollos sorry Aqui dan muchas quejas de los pollitos de colores por que dique no saben igual. LOL.
HAITIAN OPPOSE MILITARY PRESENCE
Hundreds of Haitians demonstrated yesterday, between resignation and anger, against the impressive helicopters landing of U.S. troops in Haiti and at the Presidential Palace, an act considered by many as a loss of sovereignty. "It's an occupation. The palace is the country, represents our power, our face, our pride"
Imagine if this is demonstrations are happening against American troops that are considered pretty neutral, and it is only started now.
Someone that has studied Haitian-Dominican history, has travelled to Haiti numerous occasions,
speaks creole, has many Haitian friends, some intellectuals, some business people, some historians, some politicians, understands that the Haitians are a proud and nationalistic nation.
A contingent of Dominican troops, would be seen as an insult and the worse intrusion that the DR, could ever commit against the people of Haiti, and a bitter reminder of their sad predicament.
Are you questioning Martha's expertise on the subject?
It is clear to me that there are two sides when it comes to the introduction of Dominican Troops into the Haitian landscpae during these hard times. People, tend to forget or simply ignore the celebration and jubilation with which the American Troops were received in the Capital by its residents. I do not now why some nuts simply like to report a covenient side of the story, to conitnue with the mongering.
If you poll the haitian people today in HAITI and abroad, you'll find a majority support for the American presence and their interest in protecting the now ruined palace.
I happen to support the idea, that is time for us to break away from those old fears and plow ahead with the introduction of our troops and allow the haitians population and the Dominican troops to prove me wrong. Those old feelings and fears need to be put in back burner ASAP and allow a new horizon to shine on the new and invigorated Dominico/Haitian relationship.
We need to begin pushing our wishes that we want our country to make a strong push for the normailization of relations and for the establishment of talks that will allow us as a people to settle our diffrences with the HAITIANS and ask the hatians to make a formal apology to our people for the past injuries that they inflicted to us.
A formal apology from the Haitian government will be a great set point for the converations to begin and then, only then, the fear mogers will be forced to stay on the sideline. The Domincan intellectuals want this, the intellectuals wihin the Diaspora want this. Just ask people like Pons, Torres-Saillant, Diaz and others.
It is time to reproach our political agenda towards Haiti, it is possible and this is the time to get it done.
What do you call better relation?
Let me tell where it stand as far as relation of import/export across the border we pay more money to go into Haiti with our merchandise than they do to come into DR. This gesture was accepted under the pretext to allow them to make more money than we do. The problem is that most of the product Haiti export is already available locally at better quality and price. So I don't know what else can DR do to have "better relation" because we we have done all we can from what we are given. There is nothing DR can do to raise Haiti standard and product variety to export. They have had many chance but the corruption is so deep that is unable for nothing to happen there. Have you read the Haitian constitution. After 32 constitution changes they still call the island Haiti and the whole island belongs to it all the way to Punta Cana and that's an official document that even though they "agreed" to change it well they haven't follow up on it.
Can you give me a list of what would be included in the better relation list between DR and Haiti that is not already in place?
You couldn't said it better. You have a great programing carreer so stick with that and leave the delicate situations to us political scientist.
Crawl away in your lil' Lenovo laptop sit at the top floor of the Acropolis mall drink an imitation latte from a starbucks copy cat, sit all by yourself alienated from human contact like you do when you write hundreds of lines of code to make sure the DR phishing scams, porn, and Dominican hip hop video sharing sites are all updated.
You ostentatiously gloat about your credentials and your knowledge of the sentiments of the people, when your profession dictates by protocol that you work like a little library troll.
You've been to Haiti 13 times, if you count them it means you've been there only for certain things and not there to really live within the people. I find it strange that you switched to attack me personally because I show disagreement to your pompous views, but whatever, I'm sure someone in your family is to
Tal vez te quitaron el bobo cuando eras muy pequeño, o los limpia botas te daban cocotaso para quitarte tu yun-yun cuando ibas vestidito de azul y khaki a tu liceo, Tal vez el bajo a pipi del baño de tu casa te pudrio los sentidos. Whatever the matter might be I'm sure your comments don't hurt anyone's feelings on here because your logic is full of flaws, you only seem to be on here to create chaos amongst users.
Whatever the case may be I refuse to acknowledge your comments until something semi-intelligent comes out of pie hole.
"Now Kick Rocks"
I know you feel left out in the knowledgeable conversation going here but I love you too!
This poor metal head has most likely never been to Haiti and has no real knowledge to comment on but that doesn't stop people from criticizing or attacking because they have FEELINGS!!
I don't know if we are dealing with infants or the rants of emotional women although effeminate men also tend to be over emotional!
To attack Belly who is one of the people in this forum who is most active in reaching out to Haitians is ridiculous...Iron feels in typical leftist touchy feely to say a couple of nice words while people like Belly were the first to push for REAL assistance for the Haitians but for some people we must not only assist the Haitians but bend over and take it up the arse for them to feel happy.Most of these individuals are people who live far away and do nothing for DR but for some strange reason jump into "action" (again lots of feel good words only) when it comes to Haiti.
Someone who thinks with emotions criticizing the logic of people who by trade think logically ...most of these people are probably the same that thought "yes we can!" was the most inspirational speech they ever heard and not an infantile expression on the level of "The little engine that could"!
Thank you! you got a special talent to tell the true like no other. I just love it when the "Make me feel good" crowd goes after me not knowing anything about the subject of immigration and how it hurts the average Dominican and I understand they not knowing anything about it because the truth is they only go to DR for 3 days and go back to their first world home with their "feel good" mentality. They never known or lived in DR or ever had a job there dealing with all that we know happen on a daily basis in DR. They don't know that all the progress in DR comes from people like me,you and others here who never had a doubt about protecting the interest of our people.We are humanitarian in real life because even with the little that we have we are willing to share it. The "yes we can" crowd always makes me laugh because they "care and protect" everybody but when you ask them for $5.00 donation to help the poor most will just turn away giving nothing.
Dagtan,
Can you give me a list of what would be included in the better relation list between DR and Haiti that is not already in place?
Belly, with much pleasure, however, I will like you to think about our most difficult hurdle to jump when it comes to normalizing our differences with Haiti. The economic situation is the least to be concerned about belly, since green always puts all differences aside when there is potential for money to be made. These discrepancies could be easily seen in our relationship with the Chinese Communist party, the U.S. has sacrified multitudes of lives in order to either control or eliminate communism, but we find ourselves time after time across the table with the largest communist regime on earth.
Belly, please bear with me, since I am at work and do not have the time to give you details, but in the meantime tell me what you think about overcoming this issue. I believe that once we are able to overcome this issue and oasis of
For over a century and a half, Haiti and the Dominican Republic have shared the island of Hispaniola. Their relationship, however, has rarely been amicable. In the Dominican Republic, this antagonism has led to the creation of a set of anti-Haitian prejudices called antihaitianismo. Antihaitianismo is actually the present manifestation of the long-term evolution of racial prejudice, the selective interpretation of historical facts, and the creation of a nationalist Dominican false consciousness. That process, of course, did not take place spontaneously. It was orchestrated by powerful elite groups in the Dominican Republic with strong interests to defend.
Their advantageous position as administrators of our resources and economy.
As you know the same thing happens in Haiti where there is a class that is benefiting from keeping both people mistrusting each other. However, their sentiment is not as strong
Belly, I have to honest, I have not dealt with ordinary Haitians often, my dealings are often with professional educators at both secondary and higher ed and sure they will be more open minded than the average Joe, the same applies to Dominicans. I have only been Haiti twice and it has been both times on business, in the process of introducing new educational opportunities to the country, so I have been insulated from the streets to a degree. I do believe that you been in contact with Haitians more than me, at the same time, I believe that you know that this is the starting point for both sides.
Finally, I put the burden on
They're protecting their own wallets while playing with the populations mind. We're are all brothers and sisters. Every black person came to this part of the world the same way. Inter-marriage resulted in mixed kids. We are all the same.
Google how to make a slave.
People need to stop the name calling. It makes you look stupid.
We live in a cruel and screwed up world. People do things for money and power. If you want to know me read about me.
Again I want ot thank all the dominicans all over the world that showed compassion towards HAITI in these trying times. One day the mistrust will be gone and will reach our full potential as one. At the end of this journey we all go to one place so hate and name calling is a waste of energy.
DAGTAN DR is more advanced but more civilised. That's a low shot. POVERTY doesn't discriminate so be respectful. IF you want to ruin a country you isolate and in time it will turn on itself.
The first thing Haiti needs to do is become more responsible to their own people which will EARN "NOT" give the respect, Then we can begin to negotiate as 2 adult nations behaving like adults until then DR should not change it's attitude towards a nation that shows no respect for it's own people. The main problem between DR and Haiti has lasted this long because of the same reasons. In many cases Haiti's politicians have promised many times to start acting according to the law but 2 weeks later is back to the same which create the same mistrust that you mentioned. i.e. If I offer to take you to dinner many times but never do would believe 100% if I offer to buy you a car or would you mistrust my words.The Dominican Constitution is clear and has NOTHING that creates mistrust in it but the Haitian constitution clearly says the WHOLE island is called Haiti even though they promise to change to Island of Santo Domingo while back but simply HAVE NOT!.
DR has done everything that is suppose to do to have peace on the island. The prove that we are not the ones who mistrust is in the fact that we allow almost 2 million of Haitian to reside on our side with minimum incidents of violence.The problem is that NGOs and AfroCentrist have come to the conclusion that the only way to save Haiti is to make DR absorb their problems because is the easy way out. The real way out would be for Haitian to grill their politicians to the point that they do what is right for the general public. Ask your self how come Preval and Aristide never had a Documentary done to show their stealing and ruthless way of taking that belongs to the general public yet they have done like 20 Documentaries about sugar cane field which by the way provide free school to the kids of the worker and I should say very good schools when compared to Haiti and even some in DR.
Is easy for you, me and others to look for the solution that we think is logical but solutions to the problems in Haiti and DR should be up to the ones that have no option of coming and going when they please like many of us here.Lets face it for real how many times have you or I and others missed a meal or are about to miss one anytime soon due to monetary reasons. Yours and my food is safe in the refrigerator but many in DR don't have that privilege of saying that because of economic reasons and we both know that for a fact so is hard to tell that Dominican to bring another person on board that is going to make it harder for him or her to eat to accept it and move on. Is not as easy as it sounds.When I'm in DR which go to almost 7-10 times yearly I'm mostly going around to my old spots and it is still hard to make a living.
Nothing is going to happen to your or my properties there just because we fight against immigration issue of DR.The reason why I fight against illegal immigration is because I have family that still live there in fact I'm there a lot of the time of my life and hopefully will be there for good in a couple of years so I have a very good reason to fight against illegal immigration because I want the country to be in better shape than when i left the first time not worse.
DAGTAN DR is more advanced but more civilised. That's a low shot. POVERTY doesn't discriminate so be respectful. IF you want to ruin a country you isolate and in time it will turn on itself.
Bliss, I am very sorry, but I could not find any better words. I know that it sounds ugly and uneducated, I promise to find better language in the future.
We have not done anything to solve the problem that I posted and create the way for better relations between the DR and Haiti. i know full well that the Haitians have not abandon or remove their thinking that the island is called Haiti. This is a clear injury to get us upset about the current situation and it could part of our pre-conditions to come to the table.
However, Belly as you know full well the 7 plus million tainos and arawak natives that Colon found on the island in 1492 called the land 'Ayiti' which means mountainous land. Therefore, if we are to go back into the history of the true inhabitant of the land, then the name should be 'Ayiti' if the Haitians pronounce such term as 'haiti' then don't you think that that they have a point and we ought to investigate and put our historians to work and confirm such claims.
One thing i never feels comfortable about our culture and educational system which i attended until the 7th grade is hesitancy to dig into ou
i think that the immigration population is a real problem and no Belly, we did not take anyone, since they came without our permission. If our authorities were interested on the well being of the common man, trust me, Belly, the DR would have been Haitian free already.
Those jobs that are going to haitians should be going to Dominicans, so they are no forced to jump to sea looking for a better future. Instead they hire illegal haitians at a fraction of what Dominican will earn. i wish that the authorities will raid these job sites and arrest all illegals and their bosses for hiring illegal aliens. Moreover, hefty fines should be applied to those who hire illegals.
Belly, there is a
We suffer severe identity crisis during this process, it is not easy to let go of what you learned culturally and in school. But when you are confronted with the truth and the facts, then you start questioning even who you are as a person.
Belly, we have the job of educating our people and teaching them who we are, i mean who we really are, teach them about our African ancestry and the fact that our entirely island was once called 'Ayiti' by the natives, before it was called 'quisquella' knowledge is power Belly, this is possible with people like us pushing for it.
On the issue of Haitian migration into the DR I see no disagreement between your position and mine. Sadly, I fear that the situation in Haiti will grow ever more difficult to sustain and yes, I believe as you do that some NGOs would very much want to see the massive problems of Haiti be absorbed by uniting both sides of the island. And this is going to push things to a breaking point. as I've stated before, people don't want to be told unpleasant facts, and when I state that Haiti's 6.7 million under 18 (UN 2007) and under population is a ticking population bomb, some people get awfully angry and resentful. This is a DR site and even though the tragedy that's affecting Haiti is devastating, the devastation as you and others have pointed out affect us all. The pent-up demographic statistics are not going to go away or be wishfully extrapolated into the distant future; it's going to bite really hard in the coming decade and then what will the deniers say?
What is the reason behind calling it "ayti" "Haiti" when nobody in the island has anything Indians left on either side the fact that Africans in the island of Santo Domingo call it Haiti is not a good enough reason for us to accept it because we call say that the island has been call Santo Domingo ever since 1492 and the indians trace back to the 8th century so if we keep going back how do we know that the ones before them didn't have a different name for it and how do we know who was in Santo Domingo in the 1st century you what i'm saying at one point you have to cut off and call it by the present owners preference don't you think. So the Island is called Santo Domingo ever since the indians were eliminated. So for us to just go back and call it Ayti how do we know were are not skipping who ever lived here in the 1st century or even before it.
I think is funny that people like to go back into history until the African presence shows up the start from there. Remember that Spaniards were here before the Africans so should we call the island España because they would be the closest ancestors that we can trace back the farthest in this island. If we keep going back then we would call it planet earth and erase every border line because there is prove that at one point all the land didn't belong to anybody don't we. Don't believe the Afro-Centrist point of view that gets teach here in USA. For Dominican to accept their African ancestors and deny all others to me is not the way to go and we should never accept it because then we are denying and choosing who we are told we are not who we really are. Look at Tiger Woods catching fire for standing up and not denying all of his ancestor because they were hoping for him to apply the one drop rule but I'm glad he didn't fall for it.
So if we are to teach our kids in school something that should include ALL ancestor not the pick and choose that the one drop rule that USA has in place. So for us to call our country Dominican Republic all we did was build our identity as a mix nation that we are since we didn't have the choice of being all Black or all White then we must have a name and identity that transcend and apply to all who fought to keep us free.
One of the reason Haitian official have accepted to rename the Island Santo Domingo is because they went back in their own history book and found that they had no claim to rename the island because the previous owner still existed in the eastern side and still exist today which most come from Spaniard ancestors since they were the one who took it away from indians by eliminating the whole race. Haitian renamed it back to Haiti by trying the same thing killing all whites on their side but didn't accomplish it 100% like Spaniards did.
However, we could indeed have, peaceful, respectful, and fully cooperative relationship. Both country were once beautiful and I seen part of Haiti that are amazing. Once the re-forestation of haiti begins and they be able to develop their tourism, things will get better.
I one day want to be able to travel to haiti on vacation, without having to deal with animosity between the countries. Moreover, i want to be able to live in the Dominican Republic that is free of such disgust and dislike for these people. Hey, i have a daughter and hell, if she decides to marry a haitian, i do not her to judged by a bunch ignorant SOBs because they think that these people lesser humans.
Belly, your position is the same as mine, the only difference is that I call the current situation with education on the island and the fact that in the 21st century those old sayings and selected historic facts are still dominating.
I agree with you about the afro-centrict view in the U.S. it is clear to anyone that such views do not match who we, since we have been influenced by a series of genetics and we by all means are not pure. This were i want to spend more time talking to you. The fact that we are not pure, right off the back eliminates our heavy reliance on Spain's history as a vehicle for ours. We are not
i am advocating for all of those that contributed to our landscape and gave us those stories and customs that have allowed us to interact with our environment harmonically. Lets teach a little about everyone and their contributions and not only a single point of view, which is the flaw in the Afro-centrict point of view. Belly, we do the same, the only difference is that take the other side, which throughout history has demonized anything African and have deny me the right of learning about those Africans that worked on our land as slaves and then became free.
Whether, i like it or
Finally, Belly, i totally agree with your statement about our mixed background. now, lets make sure that our history represent a mixed people of many backgrounds and genetics influences. It is possible Belly, and big part of the lifting is on our shoulders here in the U.S. as part of the ever more influential and powerful Dominican Diaspora on Dominican affairs back home.
Belly, lets celebrate, since a few yeas ago we have began the entry into our second generation. This means a lot and says a lot about our place in U.S. landscape.
"Dagtan
One of the reason Haitian official have accepted to rename the Island Santo Domingo is because they went back in their own history book and found that they had no claim to rename the island because the previous owner still existed in the eastern side and still exist today which most come from Spaniard ancestors since they were the one who took it away from indians by eliminating the whole race. Haitian renamed it back to Haiti by trying the same thing killing all whites on their side but didn't accomplish it 100% like Spaniards did".
Understood Belly. However, let me inform you that if it was not for a series of events that culminated in the 1804 revolt, we'll speaking French today. See you, the Spaniards gave up the entire Island without any remorse for the Creole, poor whites and African Slaves that had produced so much for them before 1775. On this year the entire island was a French colony since spain simply packed up and left it for dead. Only due to
Belly, this is when the antihaitianismo begins, just as the antibellum whites did in the American South. The strategy was to demonize them as much as possible, so everyone will unite behind once single cause and that cause was to keep the newly African nation from taking everything. Also, Dessalines' actions did not help, since he was abusive and barbaric towards the people in the east. Even the blacks in the east disliked Dessalines.
If the French would have been able to end the uprising in the west, it was only normal for the introduction of more French into the Island and the eventual take over of their culture and language. Moreover, it was easier for the Creole and whites in the east to accept another European influence, but to have the relative of their slaves control them, was simply unthinkable and unacceptable. We can go for days, but our history is one of th
See you, the Spaniards gave up the entire Island without any remorse for the Creole, poor whites and African Slaves that had produced so much for them before 1775
They later got it back in 1809 and then we gained our independence from Spain in 1821 and named it properly Santo Domingo until we were invaded in 1822 then Duarte feel Spaniard were not doing anything against it so he took matter into his own hands by forming the Trinitarians. Most people think that from 1822-1844 Haiti were happily the owners and is not because in SFM it self didn't allow the Haitian flag to fly over it until 1833 which you can find in history of San Francisco which by the way was the first city who backed-up Duarte and the movement of independence. After SFM did as a whole city then others came into the movement that's why SFM is said to be a major player in the shaping of the whole country we know as Dominican Republic.
"Most people think that from 1822-1844 Haiti were happily the owners" - I do not know who those people are, but they must be smoking some shit.
Belly said,
"They later got it back in 1809" - only after the Africans took over the west and the creole, poor whites and african slaves, went into panic mode.
Belly said,
"San Francisco which by the way was the first city who backed-up Duarte and the movement of independence". Belly, you forgot Monte Grande, which is the reason why we call ourselves Dominicans and not Hispanos. THESE TWO CITIES ARE THE DARLINGS OF OUR FREEDOM. The fact that they do not get more CREDIT is a shame. Once again blame Trujillo for centralizing our country into Santo Domingo.
Good job Belly!, keep it up, mi hermano de la otra madre. por lo meno tu eres uno de eso dominican/american que sabe la historia de nuestra tierra.
We are on this tiny piece of land so demonizing someone and treating them like second class citizen is pointless.
Dagtan said, : "only after the Africans took over the west and the creole, poor whites and african slaves, went into panic mode" I think it was more like fighting a war with no weapon which would have been a dumb move that would had given away the intentions from the beginning.
Dagtan said,
"Belly, you forgot Monte Grande, which is the reason why we call ourselves Dominicans and not Hispanos. THESE TWO CITIES ARE THE DARLINGS OF OUR FREEDOM" - This eventually will come out at least in SFM the history of the city is well known by most people and actually we use different history books than those of the capital and other places which is why the history is better known locally.
Dagtan said:
"Good job Belly!, keep it up, mi hermano de la otra madre. por lo meno tu eres uno de eso dominican/american que sabe la historia de nuestra tierra." - Gracias mi hermano I have to know the history to confront those trying to change it to their benefit. LOL
"I have to know the history to confront those trying to change it to their benefit". LOL
Belly, from a guy that loves history and is able to back up what comes out of his mouth, a bit of food for though. The best historian are those that keep their heart out of the history and allow their brain to do all the talking. Since the heart suffers from emotions that corrupt the truthfulness of the facts and handicap the story teller from telling a fair and a fundamentally neutral set of events as they took place.
Therefore, i am happy to know that you do not tolerate those that try to change it to their benefit, just be careful not to be the victim of your own mission.
Again I appreciate everything the Dominican people and govt have done to help my people. At the end of the day we're all humans. I know it's a small percentage of the population that acts like this.
Again, I see what big business is doing in DR and Haiti and it's out of your hands and mine. The allmighty dollar will bury all prejudices real fast. Lot's of money is going to pour into Haiti and everyone wants a part. Leonel and Preval are being told what to do by those billions and billions of potential investment
Therefore, i am happy to know that you do not tolerate those that try to change it to their benefit, just be careful not to be the victim of your own mission.
I learned a long time ago to tell my self the truth even is it hurts. My father taught me that a long time ago.I don't know if you ever got your hands on Haitian book of history and what they teach kids in school but in our school we are closer to the truth but not 100%. I had one of those book but my son dropped in the water and this is a true story unlike the dog ate my homework. Next time I'm there going to grab another.
Headline in todays El Caribe newspaper.
"President Preval refused Dominican soldiers coming in to Haiti as part of Minustah".
Happy now?
Learn some modesty and try to learn wisdom from those that have more experience than you. President Fernandez has the high ground anyway because he did offer to help and was turned down.
BTW The offer to help came originally from a European rep of Minustah to Fernandez, and the president carried the ball further without much consultation.
I hate to say I told you so, but, I told you so.
Nobody could have planned a better final outcome to the DR, of this "diplomatic faux pas".
I do not take it as adefeat, instead it is a victory for government and our desire to head toward a future in which both people can co-exist peacefully and with maximum cooperation. The fact that Mr. Fernandez did not give in to the Dominican neo-cons and those that want to maintain the distance between the two people, shows that he is ready and maybe, the next person will use that courage to begin the repairing process.
I am happy, that the Haitian government said thanks, but no thanks, Mr. Fernandez. Keep it up Mr. Fernandez, have no fear and do not give in to the fear Mongers that love to live in the state of fear.
Generoso, we have earned and advanced our cause tremendously by having the desire to take such risk and it paid off, because the possibility of the loss of life is no longer a chance, but our stock rose (politically). As i said, as a civilian I hated the idea, but politically simply brilliant.
"Generoso, we have earned and advanced our cause tremendously by having the desire to take such risk and it paid off, because the possibility of the loss of life is no longer a chance, but our stock rose (politically). As I said, as a civilian I hated the idea, but politically simply brilliant"
G: No matter what his detractors say about him, President Fernandez is a brilliant man and world class politician.
Maybe he did anticipate what the Haitian response would be, after all, Preval was sitting a few chairs away from him when the proposal was made, and like a good poker player he could measure Preval's body language and reaction.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Fernandez the fox did outmaneuver the Haitians this time around. It is usually the other way around, maybe the Haitians are "shell shocked".LOL.
President Fernandez has learned both from Juan Bosch and Joaquin Balaguer, many of their tricks and wise political moves.
One of my favorite Balaguer sayings:
"Place yourself under the mango tree and wait for the fruit to fall".
LOL
I've seen some of your the sky is falling comments. The wind of change is coming.
the reason Preval declined is because it's too soon. Yes we appreciate the help however Haitians know how our brothers are treated over there. They're beaten, killed, hands chopped off at will. We know your countrymen don't value Haitian life so it's too soon for DR troops to come. Haitians are very aware of Rafael Trujillo and how he massacred unarmed men women and children so he could steal the land and import white people. As a man i'm suppose to protect a woman and a child. I know most Dominicans didn't participate in that. I know he whipped these poor people into a frenzy telling them the enemy is coming and got them to committ this attrocity. I also know Trujillo rewrote the history books in your country to justify his actions.
Dominicans say around 20k were killed and haitians say 40k again somewhere in the middle is the truth my guess is 30k.
we need to put this behind us because it's one island and we all need to get along.
Peace and love to everyone
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Fernandez the fox did outmaneuver the Haitians this time around. It is usually the other way around, maybe the Haitians are "shell shocked".LOL.
Outmaneuver? Gloating when 100k 200k are dead and millions are displaced. show some class and grace. You think haitians are stupid classless barbaric, etc. You still think we don't need each other. we are all brothers and sisters on one small piece of land.
I found this site 3 days before the earthquake and I thought wow people on here are brutal. the earthquake happened and I thought people are people compassionate and caring. I guess now the "shock" is wearing this boards true colors are coming back
Dagtan and I weren't talking about the earthquake but a specific diplomatic event. That video you saw about Dominicans "chopping" some poor negro hands off happened in Colombia, and the perps were Colombian drug lords. By the way you express yourself, standing on your self righteous soapbox, just ascertains to the audience your wise choice in choosing your handle "ignoranceisbliss". Maybe you should have that motto tattooed in your forehead.
And what you said is very true: YOUR true colors of the constant fault finding, complaining, being stuck in the convenient historical past and always passing out the beggar bowl pleading mercy, are coming back with more vengeance now.
Thank you for seeing what I saw a few days ago. And I can not believe that our divergen views have merge, sort of on the culmination of the political dance that was performed by Mr. Fernandez the last few days.
Generoso, not many are able to distinguish the political dance from political posturing. No, offense, mi hermano, but you tend to spend lots of time on the posturing side, while missing all the action on the dance floor. Remember, that the dance sometimes is ugly and out of steps, but in the end, the person needs to step aside and observe the dance from the balcony and see what is happening on the dance floor and then make their decisions base on what they see.
Mr. Fernandez, crlearly stepped away from the dance floor and got on the balcony, observing the dance floor and realized that there was much to gain from offering to dance, even if rejected.
Generoso, you do not know me and I do not know you, but I assure you that both of our sources are good.
You prove my point again. Name calling is childish these are historical facts. You and I know it. Just like the south in America use tou abuse all minorities and America has come to term with it. Just like haitians massacred lots of whites. Its a historical fact.
I don't grand stand and I'm not a beggar. I told you why Preval said no. You and I know what I said is true. The intellectuals on here love to refer to black people as monkeys etc. These are facts.
Columbian drug lords? I always said the dominican people are good people that want the same as I to feed their children. There's a few who like to distort the facts play with the numbers to scream the sky is falling and that's a fact. It's called propoganda. Tattoed on my forehead. LOL. original.
Dominicans want haitians to apologize for Boyer and Dessalines? I apologize. Now apologize for Trujillo and how Dark skin Haitians are treated in DR today?
I address Dagtan and you seperately.
"Dominicans want haitians to apologize for Boyer and Dessalines? I apologize. Now apologize for Trujillo and how Dark skin Haitians are treated in DR today"? Bliss, I will include dark skin Dominicans, we do not fare any better in the upper strata of my country. As a mulato, I consider myself a dark person of mixed decent, so I am not white, but not African black either. However, I am consider black in the upper levels of society in the DR. Hey, who knows, I might be denied entry into some of those exclusive clubs, even though I have the money to afford them.
Now, that is what I am talking about. Bliss sign me up to make this happen. We are two people who will never be more than an inches apart, due to our interconnected history. Neither history could be taught effectively whithout the other.
Our history, is a set of reactions to past, present and future Haitian's actions and behaviors.
"Your proud your son threw a book in the toilet. LMFAO and you said Haitians are stupid, barbaric and backwards.I've seen some of your the sky is falling comments. The wind of change is coming."
Where did you get that I said I was proud my son threw the book in the water (not toilet) .Plus can you point out where I said Haitian were stupid,barbaric and backwards. Do you have a English comprehension problem or something.
My question to you is WHY ARE MAKING STUFF UP ABOUT ME?
You can't find anything against me now you have to make it up, well let me tell you that's not the way people with enough knowledge act when presented with the truth.
I hope your kid learns to respect other people races, religions and beliefs.
Don't change your original comment and then deny whay you say.
I've been following this site 3 days before the earthquake and you guys were brutal. Degrading another human doesn't make you superior it makes you look small. The only people that will join in is someone just as small and uneducated.
One person on here said haitians are necrophiliacs and I thought that was funny. HAITIANS ARE STUPID. LOL. SAY THE GOVERMENT IS CORRUPT SCREWING THE PEOPLE YES you 1000% right. but daming a whole nation shame on you as a man and a father.
Sorry but I am kind of dark too, "indio" as the Dominicans say, certainly not Aryan or close to it.
Sure I will apologize for the bastard Trujillo, he not only killed thousands of Haitians, but he killed thousands of Dominicans as well, including members of my immediate family.
Dark skin Haitians and white skin or mulatto Dominicans are treated the same, it all depends on their particular "class structure". If the mulatto or dark skin Haitian has money and is educated, then the red carpet comes out, if he is a white, broke and unemployed then he is not very welcome, although Dominicans will still be charitable to an extent. Dominicans are really understandably more "classists" than racists of any degree.
We have many black Dominicans and "cocolos" or english speaking blacks that have integrated well into the DR customs and culture, same as arabs, Chinese and Japanese. Most of the DR armed forces are composed of dark skin Dominicans, probably of Haitian descent.
Higüey.- El secretario de las Fuerzas Armadas, teniente general Rafael Peña Antonio, declaró hoy que la decisión del Gobierno haitiano de rechazar los militares dominicanos es soberana y que la deben dirimir los mandatarios de ambos países.
“Nosotros lo que queremos es ayudar y si ellos no quieren tropas, eso es lo que podemos hacer, hay una situación calamitosa y nosotros decidimos eso, pero es una decisión de ellos que hay que respetar”, expuso el alto oficial.
No obstante, Peña Antonio dijo que desde que ocurrió el terremoto enviaron un general a Jimaní para mantener el control de la zona.
Dijo que todos los equipos de inteligencia de las Fuerzas Armadas han sido desplazados hacia la frontera porque hay personas que aprovechan la situación para delinquir.
I have not change anything and if you follow all my comments you will come to yours senses that you are wrong. When ever you go after somebody here make you sure you can back-up what you are saying because otherwise it makes you look foolish in the crowd.
Se recuerda que los hospitales de la capital y del interior tenían serias dificultades para dar de alta a pacientes haitianos víctimas del terremoto, debido a que no hay lugares suficientes para albergarlos.
En tanto, la Fundación Sur Futuro recibió en el Aeropuerto las Américas a 68 médicos enviados por el Senado de Puerto Rico que sustituirán a los 102 galenos que están brindando sus servicios en Jimaní.
Belly I remember some of your tasteless comments but I have bills to pay and clients to see.
We are all brothers. I know about class system it's the same in Haiti. Lot's of luck to everyone here.
You had to ruin it didn't you?
Do you always have an urgency to win an argument? Even if it is obvious that you were dead wrong?
Like Reagan used to say: Here we go again!
The facts are that I was right and you were wrong, I was modest enough to water down your failure to understand, simple historical facts that can not be changed overnight, with just one single magnanimous gesture, and restrained from "chest thumping" over your "faux pas".
Posturing is not a very nice word to brand my kind of Dominican patriotism. Look up the definition, smarty pants.
Atabey, Belly, popon, oldschool, pepe32, lautaro, yumnuk3, vacanos, myself and many others are always in the front lines, with lots of compassion, but also holding our head high, and our Dominican flag still higher. As you know this is a Dominican site in English, founded by charitable minds to promote peace and better understanding, not really to make money or gain political mileage.
Me and the rest of the patriots in the daily sparring and discourse at DT, are DEFENDING our country, sometimes against the rest of the world, and making sure that the truth and only that is communicated.
Thanks all and God bless.
"You can take a horse to water, but can't make him drink".
Maybe what we have here is........"a failure to communicate" (Cool hand Luke).
or maybe "Lost in translation" with gorgeous and sexy Scarlet Johansson.
Or last but not least it is all "Grist for the mill" By Baba Ram Dass. LOL.
Please stop!
I am hearing Violins and you are making me cry!
I have images of you in a Superman suit floating in the air in front of a waving Dominican flag as the narrator says for “TRUTH, JUSTICE and the Dominican WAY!”
"I remember some of your tasteless comments but I have bills to pay and clients to see.
We are all brothers. I know about class system it's the same in Haiti. Lot's of luck to everyone here."
Well post them here so we can all see them, Since you claim they exist. Then why not prove it here for us to see it. Up to this day I haven't made a comment about Haiti that I won't stand by it today.For you to claim my comments are tasteless, well the truth sometimes is tasteless but doesn't mean it should be hidden because it is still the truth. I just think is funny you claim to have prove of something that doesn't exist yet fail to show it here.
So funny, maybe in campesino guayabera and pants, with a cane hat and a cachimbo, and a machete in my waist, LOL.
But no violins please. I like the Dominican accordion and fast beat of the drums of merengue music in the background.LOL.
Or do you like Wagner's "die valkyrie" better?. LOL.
Atabey, Belly, popon, oldschool, pepe32, lautaro, yumnuk3, vacanos, myself and many others are always in the front lines, with lots of compassion, but also holding our head high, and our Dominican flag still higher. As you know this is a Dominican site in English, founded by charitable minds to promote peace and better understanding, not really to make money or gain political mileage.
Me and the rest of the patriots in the daily sparring and discourse at DT, are DEFENDING our country, sometimes against the rest of the world, and making sure that the truth and only that is communicated.
All I can do is, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha and Ha.
Generoso, you know what people like you are called: FLAG WAVERS, yes that is the only contribution they make to the future of the people.
WOW, WOW, WOW, I can not stop laughing at this guy.
Your comments are bienvenue, make a lot of sense, and most carry with them the power of the truth.
Rooting out corruption, jobs and education. This tragedy could be a major springboad to creating jobs for the people and creating a new Haiti. Hopefully this will stop the cycle.
Those that control information has the power. The internet is the great equalizer.
Rooting out corruption, jobs and education. This tragedy could be a major springboad to creating jobs for the people and creating a new Haiti. Hopefully this will stop the cycle.
Those that control information has the power. The internet is the great equalizer.