From: United States, New York City
Santiaguero defiende lo tuyo!!
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 10:53 AM
From: United States, NYC
Any sensible person must understand that this situation has long ago reached crisis proportions. Understandably many people in Santiago and elsewhere in DR are becoming greatly disenchanted with the on-goings that appears to never end. Poor Dominicans are being priced out of several important sectors of the modernization drive; essentially construction. And the huge unemployment problems, along with the raise of petty crimes, illegal invasion of properties, have all created a very explosive climate. The International Community had better take note and the Haitian players get their act together Pronto. Hope needs to be created in Haiti so that her people can be encouraged to seek their future prosperity there and not in DR.
From: Dominican Republic, Puerto Plata
Governmenrt, if you won't do your job, the people will.
Taveras is the Johnny come lately, but the problem has lasted for years.
So you will accuse Dominicans who try and do something about the law not being enforced?
Why don't you give them all Dominican passports while you're at it.
From: Haiti
If one crosses the line of law today, who will determine what is just tomorrow? Maybe I'm wrong.
From: United States
not wanted in that place why are they there anyways if it was me i would leave simple common sense (BJP)they are just trying to survive leave them alone. That what most Dominicans trying to do in DR survive and not be bother by Haitians.
From: Haiti
Please outline it for me so that I can understand, how do these Haitians pose such a great threat to certain communities such as Santiago? Most cannot read or write, yet these individuals are the great threat, the great threat to jobs? Are these individuals the great impediment that prevent many Dominicans from obtaining employment? I believe that there is some other underlying reason for this feeling of resentment and I also know that most who contribute to this site would like to see conditions improve in Haiti. What is the basis for so much fear and insecurity in Santiago?
From: United States, New York City
" What is the basis for so much fear and insecurity in Santiago?"
It's about self preservation. These people are seeing their neighborhoods inundated with individuals who are outside the law because of there very status and who do much to denigrate the standard of living in the places they settle. If you read the article you would see that in the booming construction industry Dominicans are totally absent. This about the people in the bottom telling the people at the top that enough is enough and that they want their country back.
From: Haiti
@cibaeno75,
You are correct that illegal is illegal and I would also like to see the day when my Haitian people can stop breaking the law by coming over to the DR. There is a moral appendage to this scenario and that is that they come here seeking the basics that they cannot attain in Haiti. I am, however, a realist and an American Citizen. As an American, I can tell you right now, that you will never see me picking tomatoes in a field in Alabama or sifting peanuts from a farm in Louisiana but many illegal Mexicans are willing to do this work - most Americans would rather starve than do this kind of work. How many of your fellow New Yorkers would give up their Blackberries, fast pace walking, take-out dining, New York life to take on the life of an indigent worker. My point here is how many Dominicans are really willing to do the grunt type work of these Haitian illegals? Rice growing, cement mixing (in the hot sun), sugar cane harvesting jobs.
From: Dominican Republic, Puerto Plata
Dominicans are also absent from the road-cleaning brigades that were set up recently.
One Dominican ingeniero. 25 Haitian macheteros.
So the ingeniero makes more, but the more he makes, the more he contributes to the problem.
From: United States, Brooklyn
About time!
From: United States, New York City
"My point here is how many Dominicans are really willing to do the grunt type work of these Haitian illegals? '
Plenty if the pay is right. Unfortunately your compatriots who enter DR illegally depress the wages of the average Dominican. It's not a hard concept to understand. No one is going to pay a Domincan 500 pesos to do a job when a illegal Haitian will do it for 200 pesos, and no Dominican will work for the wages paid to illegal Haitians. With that said, can't you understand how this affects the lower rung of Dominican society? Their (illegal Haitians)presence in such large numbers does nothing but hinder the progress of the poorest Dominicans, who have to compete with them on their own soil.
Written by: Enteri2, 1 Apr 2011 11:50 AM
From: United States
More Dominican showmanship - let's not for one minute think that the government is NOT on the side of the different Santiago barrios. The stance that the government is taking is for the international community to fend off accusations of institutionalized racism - to give the illusion if impartiality. Sadly nothing could be further from the truth. Haiti has become the convenient scapegoat for all of the DR's problems. This is an attitude prevalent in most (if not all) sectors from the top down. Es que, es que, es que.....
From: United States
There needs to be a solution that will allow both Haitians and Dominicans to benefit. Right now too many problems are 'overlapping'. You have Haitians who come illegally to find work and better opportunities (as many do in the US) and then encouraging it are the buscones and people who seek cheap labor to maximize their own profit regardless of the residual problems and affects it has on both Dominicans and Haitians. A peaceful solution is needed. I can understand the people in the barrios feel like they have to do it themselves since the Government seems either complacent on unconcerned, but that is not the best solution. People often allow their feelings to build and grow into a crescendo of emotions that often blinds reason and rationale. The Government HAS to be responsible and establish a working, consistent immigration/repatriation process and eliminate the sporadic, unorganized, arbitrary mass deportations that very often violate human rights. Violence is a hindrance.
Written by: matador, 1 Apr 2011 11:51 AM
From: United States, www.brugal-ron.com/home.php
Arriba Cibaeno""""
From: United States, New York City
"A peaceful solution is needed."
Indeed, and that solution is a simple one. Deport all illegal Haitians pronto. If there was a real will to do so in the Dominican governement this problem would be solved by next week's end.
From: United States, words of wisdom from the nutcracker
If you want something done , I guess you have to do it yourself since the inept politicians are all in bed with the haitian government . This could lead to mabey and egiptian style revolt who knows.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 12:07 PM
From: United States, NYC
The best solution is to jump start the Haitian modernization process. Up until now, only a small fraction of the monies have been used, as the organizations work out the balancing of interests and the players in Haiti get behind the program. For the sake of of the average Haitian and Dominican this could not happen any sooner. DR can not be the solution to Haiti's huge problem, as simply stated, DR would become mute as a nation or society if this current situation were allowed to continue. A massive documentation system, supported by the NGOs, must begin and all Haitians regardless of where they live, be given their Haitian documentation Pronto. Make it a penalty punishable by hard labor if found not to be carrying a legal document. and BOTH sides need to protect the border region!!
The Haitian labor input in certain sectors may well depend on this low wage labor input: agriculture for instance. And I have no problem with such an arrangement, AS LONG AS it's Legal!
Written by: generoso, 1 Apr 2011 12:07 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Enough is enough, kick the Haitians out! The only language they understand is a boot in their behind!
From: United States, New York City
"The Haitian labor input in certain sectors may well depend on this low wage labor input: agriculture for instance. And I have no problem with such an arrangement, AS LONG AS it's Legal!"
A guest worker program for poor, unskilled foreigners in a land full of native poor and unskilled denizens. Who will be the beneficiaries of such a program? Certainly not the Dominican poor.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 12:17 PM
From: United States, NYC
If we were dealing in a laboratory and this problem could be so easily dissected, no problem. However, this is one thorny issue and some reasonable mechanism has to be arranged so as to balance the stakes. For sure we as Dominicans will not see a DR devoid of Haitians anytime soon. Nor will Haiti become the second coming of South Korea. But in between the two extremes some balance must be created. In order to extract many ill-educated, ill-clothed, and ill-mannered illegal migrants from DR it will necessitate a corresponding "plug-factor" in Haiti. and that "plug-factor" must be some re-awakening of economic vitality and low wage options for her people. Only then will we in DR see the long hoped for easement and retrenchment of the migratory flows into our neighborhoods and lands.
From: Dominican Republic
You guys in the US who have no idea what goes on here please SHUT UP with your stupid comments "Leave them alone"
I feel dreadfully sorry for the Haitianos and have organised secure truckloads of aid into that country. What is all the millions if US$$$$$ given by many people,,,,,it is still not in Haiti!!!!!!
Come and live here you idiots that say leave them alone in the DR. I have just paid 45,000RD to get my power and water back after my electricity cable was stolen by Haitianos for THE SECOND time, 950 feet of it. Investigations revealed they had stolen it for a compound they have now started in our area, which was a nice safe area, most certainly not a Barrio. We saw all the cable there and they had power that they dont pay for!!! and we didnt for over 9 days.
From: Dominican Republic
Others have been affected in the same way, so I totally agree with the Dominican people taking their own actions. I am doing it 2 different ways,,,,,,, one by the ,,,,, with cops back up and the other,,,,,,, we cut their power!!!!!!
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 12:26 PM
From: United States, NYC
I'm all for citizenry demonstrations and only hope that these marches are well articulated and not given some "racist stigmatization" by the international Press. The people who are leading this brewing movement must make sure to address this issue because we know that many organizations will/are trying to paint the movement in such terms. And this will only hurt the cause. The articulation must be one of NIMBY and pictures, interviews, articles, press releases supporting the movement well organized. Unless this is done, the movement will be painted as one more example of Dominican 'hatred towards Haitians." And the international Press will eat it up.
Written by: williom, 1 Apr 2011 12:44 PM
From: United States
(( Unless this is done, the movement will be painted as one more example of Dominican 'hatred towards Haitians." And the international Press will eat it up. ))
The movement will always be painted as such. The poor Dominicans will always get blamed. There is no other way around it. I called it TV Sensationalism -just to spice up the news. I, a Haitian, truly feel sorry for the Dominicans because this unfortunate situation can only be solved by a prosperous Haiti. Unfortunately, the Dominican politicians are deeply corrupt and dishonest, and Haiti is in such a mess that its hope is virtually slim.
So, the only viable thing to do is for the barrios themselves to take matters into their own hands, and ignore what TV will be saying at 6:00PM later. Their livelihood is already in danger. Like I've stated here before, Haitians CANNOT fix Haiti. Now, they are about to drag down the poor Dominicans with them.
From: United States, NJ (M_ S Cibaeno 100%)
If they stealing, just shoot them dead, protect your property.
From: United States
i don't think violence is the answer but we definitely need a solution to the inmigration issue, be this a massive deportation program or any viable solution... i have to say this country is not ready to absorb 3 million illegals in its housing structures nor in its social system..... Those who are blind to see this need to learn about the natural order of things.
We are a poor nation just as Haiti is, how can we merge this two nations and still seek civil order and normal living conditions.. Haiti needs foreign help that's for sure but lets be realistic, DR is not capable or prepared to take on Haiti's issues. It is an issue of implementing the law in my opinion just as it is implemented in the US.
This year alone the US government has deported more than one million illegal inmigrants... that's what DR needs to do. I don't hear human rights coming down on the US regarding this issue.
Remember every independent and free nation has the right to seek what its best for the people.
Written by: inter, 1 Apr 2011 2:19 PM
From: Spain, SPAIN
Remember Dominicans are not recist, it happens specially with haitians because of the history issue, many people forgot about haitians occupation for years, Domincans are afraid that to happaen again, every foreighner i have met who has gone to the DR says that the treatment is outstanding, and am talking about peeple from trinida and tobago, india, africa not only about white people. That behave belong only to the hatian issue.
From: United States
sovereignty is not the priviledge of the superpowers, it is the right of every independent nation on this earth.
Written by: danny00, 1 Apr 2011 2:39 PM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
This year alone the US government has deported more than one million illegal inmigrants... that's what DR needs to do. I don't hear human rights coming down on the US regarding this issue.
Remember every independent and free nation has the right to seek what its best for the people.
YES TRUE BUT, THE NEXT DAY 3 MILLION MORE CAME INTO THE STATES..no other country in the world or in HISTORY of the WORLD has supported HUMAN RIGHTS AS UNCLE SAM DOES THIS IS WHY YOUR LIVING IN THE STATES AS ME AND MY FAMILY ALONG WITH 2 MILLION OTHER DOMINICANS AND 12 MILLION FOLKS FROM MEXICO. I ALWAYS SAY IF ONE IS NOT HAPPY WITH HIS UNCLE THEN TRY THE CASTRO BROS, OR MR. CHAVEZ WITH THEM U GET ALL THE HUMAN RIGHTS ONE WOULD WANT.
guess in the big picture no one really want's or can support this country. one would need to build the whole country, and that is one HELL OF A JOB.
dont think the world wants the dr to untake this building job the problem is that they share the same island.
Written by: danny00, 1 Apr 2011 2:45 PM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
1/6 of the population of the united state's are hispanic, 50 million latino's living in the state's now.
this is what makes the united stat'es one great country, in a world that has so many not so great countries. but your correct the dr. is not uncle sam., it seems like the whole world has turned it's back on haiti.
From: United States, New York City
There goes this" colonialzone" playing the race card. It never fails.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 3:03 PM
From: United States, NYC
But for every nut, you have more logical people like williom,
" 1 Apr 2011 12:44 PM
From: United States
(( Unless this is done, the movement will be painted as one more example of DR 'hatred towards Haitians." And the international Press will eat it up. ))
The movement will always be painted as such. The poor DR will always get blamed. There is no other way around it. I called it TV Sensationalism -just to spice up the news. I, a Haitian, truly feel sorry for the DR because this unfortunate situation can only be solved by a prosperous Haiti. Unfortunately, the DR politicians are deeply corrupt and dishonest, and Haiti is in such a mess that its hope is virtually slim.
So, the only viable thing to do is for the barrios themselves to take matters into their own hands, and ignore what TV will be saying at 6:00PM later. Their livelihood is already in danger. Like I've stated here before, Haitians CANNOT fix Haiti. Now, they are about to drag down the poor dominicans with them.
From: Dominican Republic
I for sure am not happy with all this ilegal immigration into my country! We should all do something about it and not continue to complain. I for instance am the administrator to an inmobiliaria and have given strict orders to fire all ilegal immigrants from our construction sites and even our messenger who was an ilegal haitian. All of this abuse is over! If you do not have your papers in place you wont be allowed to work as a maid in my house, period!
From: United States, New York City
ojedamaggiolo, my father and I had a heated argument over this very issue. He constantly complains about the inundation of illegals..and he hires them for their services in his business at times! I point blank told them that his attitude was hypocritical and feeding the very problem he's complaining about. That and the fact that he's undermining the poor among his own countrymen. We didn't speak for weeks after I returned but he eventually called me to tell me that I was right and that he will pay more out of his pocket for native labor. A stand has to be taken and it starts within our own social circles, within our own families.
Written by: Yucahu, 1 Apr 2011 3:47 PM
From: United States, Miami
Haitians go home and take that dumb@$$ colonialzone with you.
Written by: Yucahu, 1 Apr 2011 3:50 PM
From: United States, Miami
Good point cibaeno. I see it happening erday
Written by: ElChico, 1 Apr 2011 4:00 PM
From: United States
So easy to blame problems on Haitians...
From: Dominican Republic
We all need to take a stand on this issue. We all know someone who may hire ilegal immigrants and we must speak out against it. Just as Cibaeno did even if it took some time for his father to understand it was something he needed to hear. I spoke to my mother, my sisters, my brother my aunts uncles cousins in general my entire family and explained to them that even if we hire an ilegal immigrant to clean our houses or cook for us we are contributing to the problem. Now my whole family is aware of the situation and will not continue making the same mistakes we did in the past. Speak to your families, friends, acquaintences and ask them to please stop contributing to the problem!
Written by: ElChico, 1 Apr 2011 4:02 PM
From: United States
cibaeno exactly. You've got it my friend. The same Dominicans that will complain about Haitians are the same that will say they would rather hire a Haitian. As long as this type of thinking exists and DR is not truly united these problems will exist.
From: United States, New York City
"Speak to your families, friends, acquaintences and ask them to please stop contributing to the problem!"
Agreed.
From: United States, New York City
"As long as this type of thinking exists and DR is not truly united these problems will exist. "
Its a modus vivendi that will take some time to overcome. Dominicans are slow to wake up enmasse but if Dominican history has taught us anything is that they eventually do and it's with a roar. People are beginning to see things for what they are and are beginning to take action.
Written by: ElChico, 1 Apr 2011 4:11 PM
From: United States
I hope so Cibaeno. I just hope whatever is brewing doesn't get lost come election time...
From: United States
My family runs a farm in "la Gorra" which is small town close to Partido Dajabon, we deal with cows goats and farming land, everyone who works there belongs to the family, even when i go there i myself work on the farm. This what dominicans have to realize we more than capable to whatever job we have to, may this be in construction or farming.....
My family knows this is the root of many problems and have been singled out by many of our neirghbors, i hope they could see things tha way we do.
From: Haiti
@Cibaeno75,
Just getting back on this thread....
You make a good point that the Haitians are charging less for labor here in the DR and for this reason, some poor Dominicans are not able to obtain employment. This is true and I will stand on the side of the truth. What is also true is that it takes two hands to clap and without the greed of us businessmen, these poor illegals would never get a job here or anywhere else. As a local trucker, I don't have to tell you how stiff the competition is and this goes for many businesses here in the DR. Businesses will always be looking for an opportunity to cut costs and increase profits; these profits and savings get us through the dry spells. Again, you have stated the truth and I respect that but to cut out small slices of the truth to benefit your argument does everybody an injustice. The truth encompasses a much bigger picture and I hope that you can acknowledge that. Maybe I'm wrong!
From: Haiti
@Cibaeno75,
Just getting back on this thread....
You make a good point that the Haitians are charging less for labor here in the DR and for this reason, some poor Dominicans are not able to obtain employment. This is true and I will stand on the side of the truth. What is also true is that it takes two hands to clap and without the greed of us businessmen, these poor illegals would never get a job here or anywhere else. As a local trucker, I don't have to tell you how stiff the competition is and this goes for many businesses here in the DR. Businesses will always be looking for an opportunity to cut costs and increase profits; these profits and savings get us through the dry spells. Again, you have stated the truth and I respect that but to cut out small slices of the truth to benefit your argument does everybody an injustice. The truth encompasses a much bigger picture and I hope that you can acknowledge that. Maybe I'm wrong!
From: United States, New York City
super-lover, I have railed against the construction consortiums that feed off of illegal haitian labor and the sugar interests that would like nothing better then to see your compatiots in virtual slavery. I recognize that these illegals are victims of higher powers. But so are the Dominican poor and quite frankly my concern is primarily the Dominican poor. It's their country and they shouldn't have to compete for the basest of jobs because there's a whole group with no rights to the soil underbidding them.
Written by: generoso, 1 Apr 2011 4:36 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
It is a simple matter of market economics that employers, anywhere will choose the labor option with the less costs.
Haitian workers are desperate, used to hardships and require less maintenance, that means less breaks, food, or benefits, that Dominican workers demand. They also work not only for less but for "whatever" the wages, so one day they might demand less than others. All this depresses the labor market for Dominican workers and lowers wages for Dominicans. The other side of the coin is that heavy use of manual labor, prolongs and delays needed mechanization of agriculture and construction industries, which is a even worse result, as thus increases our dependency on cheap, illegal manual labor.
Haitian illegals are costly in other ways as they use and abuse our hospitals, water, transportation, education, housing and electricity systems.
Haitians are elbowing their way into the DR food table, contributing nothing in return.
I say again, kick the illegals out ASAP!
Written by: generoso, 1 Apr 2011 4:41 PM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Sorry, I should be "politically correct", instead of "kicking them out", gently put them in a bus (preferably air conditioned) and deliver them to the border Haitian authorities.lol.
Does that sound better? Same results!
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 4:55 PM
From: United States, NYC
DR needs to mechanize more of its farm work, where possible. The first waves to be documented and re-patriated to Haiti should be all those living in the streets and semi-built homes many occupy illegally. The border crossing areas need to establish repatriation facilities to handle the massive numbers. The NGOs will assist in giving these poor Haitians their proper documentations and a change of clothing, food and shelter, vaccinations, before being sent across into Haiti. If operated correctly, several thousands could be processed at each center everyday. With the overall costs of video/picture taking so low, each Haitian can be photographed and his/her documented record kept for future reference. Again, the international Community can assist this in several ways and provide much needed work for many Haitians and Dominicans who will assist in this process.
Written by: danny00, 1 Apr 2011 5:21 PM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
by: atabey, 1 apr 2011 4:55 pm
from: united states
dr needs to mechanize more of its farm work, where possible.
now their is one great answer for at least one of the problem's.
now if u can stop the army from being greedy at the border that also would be a big plus, and i would think the biggest plus for the dr..
they are passing the border's since this is where all of the problems start from it would seem to me close up the borders, deport the ones that do not have a visa or a work permit. if u stop it at the root many of the problems would go away. yes some would pass by themselfs this hapens in all countrys. but at the least u would be in some kind of control.
if the police stop the ones in the dr and they do not have the correct papers deport them back to their country. some where along the lines of what the state of arizon wants to do. and which was critized by many on this site arizona and the dr have this right to protect their own borders.
From: Dominican Republic
When someone calls another dumb, or claiming that someone is using the race card, it is because they lack the intellect to understand complex issues. Prior to President Bush being elected, I thought Whites had been going to better schools, now I know the truth, they and we all were lied too. Now I say, “you show me”, not the other way around. I know I have the intellect, I went to Ivory League schools and you went to the University of Rush Limbaugh to study regergitaion, and that is all you will ever know.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 5:39 PM
From: United States, NYC
Colonial zone,
How would you go about fixing this problem?
From: Dominican Republic, Santiago
This has been a long time coming. If these creatures were in the wealthy sectors they would have been SENT BACK a long time ago. They are a big problem. They breed like stray cats, they pee everywhere, poop everywhere and are uncivil. They are unwelcome and we will do whatever we have to do to protect our land from this invasion. The dominican Govt is not doing it's job. The Fernandez crew is blind to all social problems in the country. So the moradores will take appropriate action. Unless you live here and see it, breathe it and walk it, save your rhetoric for some other topic. It is a disgusting situation and a time bomb that is beginning to expolde as I write this. By any means necessary, SEND THEM BACK, they are ILLEGAL.
From: Haiti
Carmen states, "By any means necessary", in true Malcolm X style. The great muslim who advocated for all black people to help each other. I wonder how I would be perceived if I were here illegally but rich. I wonder how I would be perceived if I were a bum (a legal bum) here in the DR, destitute with no money walking around and begging for change. Is this a poor status thing or an immigration status thing? I wonder.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 11:07 PM
From: United States, NYC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-129252991 April 2011
Is immigration policy killing the American Dream?
By Katie Connolly
BBC News, Washington
The US government has beefed up security at the Mexico border in recent years.
It's a story repeated throughout American culture, in theatre, film and novels: the penniless immigrant arrives on American shores seeking a new life and, through hard work and determination, prospers and thrives.
Such tales are a quintessential part of the "American Dream", the idea that anyone willing to work hard and think big can come to the US and "make it".
But, at a time when immigration is a divisive, hot-button political issue, is that dream still possible?
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 11:11 PM
From: United States, NYC
So-called skilled workers - usually people with a university education or professional training - have a range of visa options. The most common visa, the H1B class, currently has a ceiling of 65,000 each year.
That quota is easily filled every year. Before the recession, it was filled in the same month the visas were released.
At the moment, Mr Johnson says, it gets filled in eight or nine months, meaning that for several months of the year, H1B visas simply are not available regardless of the demand for them.
For unskilled labourers, the US grants just 5,000 work visas each year to people employed in fields other than agriculture.
Yet, according to Maurice Belanger, a director at the National Immigration Forum, the US economy was absorbing about 300,000 such workers each year prior to the recession.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Apr 2011 11:12 PM
From: United States, NYC
These workers are illegal or undocumented. Although there are certainly examples of undocumented immigrants becoming prosperous, mostly they are concentrated in low-paying jobs and have essentially no power to bargain for improved conditions.
The threat of deportation hangs over their American dreams. Those penniless immigrants are not thriving like their celebrated predecessors."
So the US only allows 5,000 VISAS for low skilled workers PER YEAR!!
DR needs to adopt a version of this policy and allow high skilled workers into DR; we have too many low skill workers already.
Written by: airgordo, 1 Apr 2011 11:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I already said this here but will do so again, i LIVE in Santiago, being here for most of my life and have seen with sadness how on top of the thosands of ignorant dominicans that the poverty creates, now i see even MORE IGNORANT UNSKILLED haitians!! i can't do anything about the dominicans but the foreigners are OTHER CASE, if this illegals were engineers, doctors, etc. they would certanly be more welcomed, but these people come to do ALL that the dominicans used to, like selling phone cards on the traffic lights, and EVEN WORST, damage the IMAGE of a tourist country like this by F.. BEGGING on the streets, i have been in many places on this world and THE ONLY PLACE i have seen IMPORTED MISSERY is the DR!
So having a useless Goverment ran by useless individuals, which care Nothing about MY PROBLEMS, i ask, WHAT a F.. i'm i suppossed to do while the city that i have been living and my country is FLOODED with these UNINVITED individuals?? i want people to put themselves IN MY SHOES.
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
Recently under pressure from the Business sector the governor of Arizona had to lax her stand on illegal immigrations. Like it or not the boom of the construction sector and Agro-business in DR will not have been possible without the explicit guarantied of cheap labor from next door. Even without Haiti Poor Dominicans would still be price out of these sectors( labor from China being imported into the region for major construction projectsTurk & Caicos, Jamaica.) About 2 years ago poor Jamaican laborers showed up at a work site of the Spanish chain RIU with machetes on hand to deal with the foreign workers ,needless to say they ended up on the loosing end when the police showed up. A friend of mine is the Project Manager for a major construction site in Montego Bay when I asked him what the deal with the Chinese on the site. He explained to me not only they are cheaper than the locals , but also work around the clock, project get done on time
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
cont
Its all part of the concession your government have to make in other to get these foreign investments to come in. Welcome to globalization, Socialism is dead get use to it.
Written by: airgordo, 2 Apr 2011 1:31 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Compare the Haitian Inmigration with anything on this world is NONSENCE, why? take the Chinese example that you just gave, did the Chinese came SWIMING from China??? Noo right?? did Jamaican authoryties filtered Who got in to the country??? sounds like it because at least THE HAVE CHINESE PAPERS, they are somebody on China, THEY in fact EXIST somewhere, so i would guess that comming from the 2nd economy on this planet they at least have some degree of EDUCATION right? if not there is no way the projects would be completed on time...Now compare that to the MIllion haitians on DR, do you know how many of your fellow country men and woman even Exist and are not just a paper less body on this earth?
I can do that example ALL NIGHT LONG with all Kinds of nationalities present on the americas, as i said, if the people who come were QUALITY people that contributes at least to add value to the workforce, this will not be an issue!
Written by: Sansouci, 2 Apr 2011 1:49 AM
From: United States
Never seen a Chinese beggar.
Why is that?
Written by: Vivacuba, 2 Apr 2011 6:24 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Citizens take matters into their own hands. Do not wait for a government to exacerbate a problem
From: Haiti
Vivacuba,
Sounds like a war declaration. What are you proposing that the citizens do, specifically? Please don't hide behind ambiguity and a general recommendation for confrontation. By perception, it tells us that in the face of real confrontation, we will expect to find you hiding behind something or under something, like a bed.
From: United States
IF the peope don't do anything, who do we rely onto solve this problem? Our governmen i don't think so... It is us the people that have to deal with this problem, Neighborhood watch organizations have to take the first steps as it is been done in Santiago...
I'm here in DR, i think i will be here for a while, this would be something that would like to bring up at the next municipal meeting in Los Almacigos where i will be staying for most of the time.
Written by: Vivacuba, 2 Apr 2011 11:16 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Don;t rely on your govt. Inside the USA, the govt actually ENCOURAGES illegals to arrive for a number of reasons and refuse to arrest them or deport them. Additionally, it is easier to arrive illegally than it is to arrive legally. If you are Cuban, the fascist *^&*#$@ w will even pay $10K in USD fiat $ if you successfully set foot on gringo soil. The people should take it upon themselves to do whatever means necessary to protect its borders. Period. If the govts were truly interested in protecting the borders, they would do so. Don;t rely or depend upon them. I emphasize legal immigration. Anything other is Illegal and should NOT be rewarded as it is in america. The more time that passes, the worst it will become.
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
@ airgodo- I do not recall laborers on a construction worksites being skills and educated. While China have managed to surpassed Japan to become the second largest economy in the world it is obvious you do not know much about China's demography. China is the world most populous country their economic boom have only managed to lift %40 of them out of poverty. Outside of the major factory cities china is mainly an agrarian society with a peasantry of semi illiterate farmers. These projects are finish on time because the workers have no tie to the local population and base on which provence they are from work in shifts around te clock.
From: United States
Wheres PEPE? Is he in Santiago? Nothing is going to change. Cheap labor will continue to poor into your country because the business community wants it that way. These people need to take up arms and use violence to remove these illegals.
From: United States
This issue involves everyone in a sense, and how they personally view what is priceless and what can be 'sold'. Cheap labor is a VERY desirable thing for ANY business regardless of WHERE on Earth is happens to be. That is why Mexicans own construction in the US now. Then in the Dominican Republic you have that 'for the right price it can be done' thing. That is NOT solely in reference to corruption either. I mean you break down ANYWHERE and in just a few minutes SOMEBODY will stop and offer to help you and even BRING you tires/gas for a decent price. Need someone to help you move your Loveseat from Ray muebles? No problem, somebody WILL do it for a decent price. Those types of things are GREAT. But unfortunately that also extends into certain areas of the Government and Politics and so there corruption etc. As it concerns Haitians, as long as EVERYTHING has a price, including patria, justicia y rectitud there will also be an issue with immigration.
Written by: vegano, 3 Apr 2011 10:53 AM
From: Dominican Republic
It seems we are going to need to take a page from the middle east. Dispose of our current government and place one that will do right for our people. Don't stress what USA has to say, because it is not due to racism we are trying to get rid of haitiains. we have plenty of black Dominicans. so let's replace the government and place one with some balls.
Written by: Pepe32, 3 Apr 2011 7:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Wow, colonial zone went to an "ivory" league school yet he doesn't even know the correct term!!
I see some miss me (ignorance) but I have given up on dialogue to solve this dilemma !
Good luck discussing peaceful option with people wh never understood peace...
Adieu mes Amis
Si vis pacem para bellum !!!
From: United States
There will be a peaceful solution. People have short term memory and eventually move on to something else. This situation is by design to bring both sides together
Written by: Vivacuba, 4 Apr 2011 2:17 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Sign them up for the US Military. They'll get citizenship out of it, if they don't die first, and become someone else's problem!
From: United States
In Philadelphia (U.S.A) there are numerous Dominicans who are law abiding citizens who work everyday. But on the other hand there are plenty of undocumented Dominicans who dont work sell drugs and commit violent crimes. So this is something that happens in every country with immigrants.
From: Puerto Rico, United States, HAITI, Puerto Rico
Well DR has a reputation that people all over the world are starting to see now, racism runs rampant in the Dominican Republic. The DR is probably one of the most racist places in the western hempishere and I am not exaggerating, i've traveled all over Latin America and the Caribbean. The thing I find funny is that my Dominican brothers and sisters illegally travel to other islands in the caribbean, especially over here in Puerto Rico but when other people want to travel illegally to their country they have problems. I mean, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of illegals Dominicans here and yea Puerto Ricans hate the illegal dominicans here but honestly, people migrate to where they think they can get jobs and survive. It's human instinct, life and death, that's all it comes down too, plain and simple so put all the hate and racism away. It would be a better world if we were more concerned with helping each other up instead of tearing each other down.
From: United States, New York City
". I mean, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of illegals Dominicans here and yea Puerto Ricans hate the illegal dominicans here "
If they are there illegally the Puerto Rican government and its people should deport them promptly. Bottom line.
Written by: Atabey, 4 Apr 2011 1:11 PM
From: United States, NYC
"and yea Puerto Ricans hate the illegal dominicans here"
You answered your question. When will Puerto Ricans "plain and simple so put all the hate and racism away. It would be a better world if we were more concerned with helping each other up instead of tearing each other down."?
You think Puerto Ricans would allow their small towns and cities to be inundated by waves of desperately poor Dominicans pissing and pooping everywhere? You think Puerto Ricans would have an issue with waves of poor Dominican children stopping traffic and pedestrians asking for small change? and how would Puerto Rico's Tourist sector enjoy desperately poor Dominicans haggling their customers? Think before you write. While illegal Dominicans reside in PR and elsewhere, seldom will you hear about them resorting to the base, minimalist survival antics on display in DR from the waves of illegals from the West. Think before you write.
From: United States, New York City
Excellent points Atabey.
Written by: vegano, 4 Apr 2011 2:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Atabey, you go kid excellent point I was going to say something else but you hit
On the noose.
Written by: Atabey, 4 Apr 2011 3:33 PM
From: United States, NYC
Few people outside real Dominicans who have resided or visited other nations in Latin America can appreciate the dire circumstances under which DR must construct its modernization program. Living on an island with the POOREST country in the Western Hemisphere is no cup of tea. Any other Caribbean or Central American nation with such a burden would not long endure the calamity and disorder. Even large nations like Brazil would find it difficult, far less than DR but nevertheless difficult, to handle the collapse of 10 plus million neighboring failed state. Because of the unique circumstances, an island in the middle of the Caribbean, DR has had to absorb more than its share of the problem for generations. People like HaitianDominicanPuertorican, need to open their eyes and visit other places and ask questions. So I say again to those like him: think before you write! BTW, he should check out the 3rd or 4th largest Black populated nation: Colombia -learn about their plight
From: United States
the negative effect that Haitian illegals have on DR is profound, no matter how much it is done to up the standard of living for dominicans it is a job never to end with the flow of illegal inmigrants who in the long wrong want to be recognized as Dominicans, that is not how things work, there is a legal system in place which we the Dominican people must enforce ourselves since our useless government fails to do so. if you have entered the country illegaly why should you be rewarded with legal documents? that is inviting them to continue to brake the law.
were are not responsible for Haitis failed policies, they have run their country into the ground and now that we are in the process of modernizing they attemp to bring us down the same road they traveled.
I would like to see nothing more than Haiti on its feet which means that we will be left alone. I am all for international aid to Haiti, but we cannot solve your problems, we don't have the means.
From: United States
Atabey made a clear distinction of illegal Haitian immigration to DR and illegal Dominican immigration to PR. There is even a distinction between illegal Haitian immigration to the US and DR.
The reason for these differences is simply numbers. Whereas the illegal immigration to US, PR is somewhat absorbed by the economies in these country in DR the illegal Haitians are too much in numbers to be absorbed by DR economy, thus the street beggars and vendors, the relieving of oneself in the streets (many illegals have no housing or plumbing ). You don't find Dominicans behaving like this in PR.
So to compare DR and Haitian illegal immigration does us a disservice. One is a migratory exercise the other is akin to an invasion.
Deport 1 million for starters beginning with the homeless, the shackdwellars with no plumbing and especially the criminally minded. There may be thousands upon thousands of illegal Dominicans in PR but we have millions of illegal Haitians in DR.
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Taveras is the Johnny come lately, but the problem has lasted for years.
So you will accuse Dominicans who try and do something about the law not being enforced?
Why don't you give them all Dominican passports while you're at it.
It's about self preservation. These people are seeing their neighborhoods inundated with individuals who are outside the law because of there very status and who do much to denigrate the standard of living in the places they settle. If you read the article you would see that in the booming construction industry Dominicans are totally absent. This about the people in the bottom telling the people at the top that enough is enough and that they want their country back.
You are correct that illegal is illegal and I would also like to see the day when my Haitian people can stop breaking the law by coming over to the DR. There is a moral appendage to this scenario and that is that they come here seeking the basics that they cannot attain in Haiti. I am, however, a realist and an American Citizen. As an American, I can tell you right now, that you will never see me picking tomatoes in a field in Alabama or sifting peanuts from a farm in Louisiana but many illegal Mexicans are willing to do this work - most Americans would rather starve than do this kind of work. How many of your fellow New Yorkers would give up their Blackberries, fast pace walking, take-out dining, New York life to take on the life of an indigent worker. My point here is how many Dominicans are really willing to do the grunt type work of these Haitian illegals? Rice growing, cement mixing (in the hot sun), sugar cane harvesting jobs.
One Dominican ingeniero. 25 Haitian macheteros.
So the ingeniero makes more, but the more he makes, the more he contributes to the problem.
About time!
Plenty if the pay is right. Unfortunately your compatriots who enter DR illegally depress the wages of the average Dominican. It's not a hard concept to understand. No one is going to pay a Domincan 500 pesos to do a job when a illegal Haitian will do it for 200 pesos, and no Dominican will work for the wages paid to illegal Haitians. With that said, can't you understand how this affects the lower rung of Dominican society? Their (illegal Haitians)presence in such large numbers does nothing but hinder the progress of the poorest Dominicans, who have to compete with them on their own soil.
Indeed, and that solution is a simple one. Deport all illegal Haitians pronto. If there was a real will to do so in the Dominican governement this problem would be solved by next week's end.
The Haitian labor input in certain sectors may well depend on this low wage labor input: agriculture for instance. And I have no problem with such an arrangement, AS LONG AS it's Legal!
Enough is enough, kick the Haitians out! The only language they understand is a boot in their behind!
A guest worker program for poor, unskilled foreigners in a land full of native poor and unskilled denizens. Who will be the beneficiaries of such a program? Certainly not the Dominican poor.
I feel dreadfully sorry for the Haitianos and have organised secure truckloads of aid into that country. What is all the millions if US$$$$$ given by many people,,,,,it is still not in Haiti!!!!!!
Come and live here you idiots that say leave them alone in the DR. I have just paid 45,000RD to get my power and water back after my electricity cable was stolen by Haitianos for THE SECOND time, 950 feet of it. Investigations revealed they had stolen it for a compound they have now started in our area, which was a nice safe area, most certainly not a Barrio. We saw all the cable there and they had power that they dont pay for!!! and we didnt for over 9 days.
The movement will always be painted as such. The poor Dominicans will always get blamed. There is no other way around it. I called it TV Sensationalism -just to spice up the news. I, a Haitian, truly feel sorry for the Dominicans because this unfortunate situation can only be solved by a prosperous Haiti. Unfortunately, the Dominican politicians are deeply corrupt and dishonest, and Haiti is in such a mess that its hope is virtually slim.
So, the only viable thing to do is for the barrios themselves to take matters into their own hands, and ignore what TV will be saying at 6:00PM later. Their livelihood is already in danger. Like I've stated here before, Haitians CANNOT fix Haiti. Now, they are about to drag down the poor Dominicans with them.
We are a poor nation just as Haiti is, how can we merge this two nations and still seek civil order and normal living conditions.. Haiti needs foreign help that's for sure but lets be realistic, DR is not capable or prepared to take on Haiti's issues. It is an issue of implementing the law in my opinion just as it is implemented in the US.
This year alone the US government has deported more than one million illegal inmigrants... that's what DR needs to do. I don't hear human rights coming down on the US regarding this issue.
Remember every independent and free nation has the right to seek what its best for the people.
Remember every independent and free nation has the right to seek what its best for the people.
YES TRUE BUT, THE NEXT DAY 3 MILLION MORE CAME INTO THE STATES..no other country in the world or in HISTORY of the WORLD has supported HUMAN RIGHTS AS UNCLE SAM DOES THIS IS WHY YOUR LIVING IN THE STATES AS ME AND MY FAMILY ALONG WITH 2 MILLION OTHER DOMINICANS AND 12 MILLION FOLKS FROM MEXICO. I ALWAYS SAY IF ONE IS NOT HAPPY WITH HIS UNCLE THEN TRY THE CASTRO BROS, OR MR. CHAVEZ WITH THEM U GET ALL THE HUMAN RIGHTS ONE WOULD WANT.
guess in the big picture no one really want's or can support this country. one would need to build the whole country, and that is one HELL OF A JOB.
dont think the world wants the dr to untake this building job the problem is that they share the same island.
this is what makes the united stat'es one great country, in a world that has so many not so great countries. but your correct the dr. is not uncle sam., it seems like the whole world has turned it's back on haiti.
" 1 Apr 2011 12:44 PM
From: United States
(( Unless this is done, the movement will be painted as one more example of DR 'hatred towards Haitians." And the international Press will eat it up. ))
The movement will always be painted as such. The poor DR will always get blamed. There is no other way around it. I called it TV Sensationalism -just to spice up the news. I, a Haitian, truly feel sorry for the DR because this unfortunate situation can only be solved by a prosperous Haiti. Unfortunately, the DR politicians are deeply corrupt and dishonest, and Haiti is in such a mess that its hope is virtually slim.
So, the only viable thing to do is for the barrios themselves to take matters into their own hands, and ignore what TV will be saying at 6:00PM later. Their livelihood is already in danger. Like I've stated here before, Haitians CANNOT fix Haiti. Now, they are about to drag down the poor dominicans with them.
Agreed.
Its a modus vivendi that will take some time to overcome. Dominicans are slow to wake up enmasse but if Dominican history has taught us anything is that they eventually do and it's with a roar. People are beginning to see things for what they are and are beginning to take action.
My family knows this is the root of many problems and have been singled out by many of our neirghbors, i hope they could see things tha way we do.
Just getting back on this thread....
You make a good point that the Haitians are charging less for labor here in the DR and for this reason, some poor Dominicans are not able to obtain employment. This is true and I will stand on the side of the truth. What is also true is that it takes two hands to clap and without the greed of us businessmen, these poor illegals would never get a job here or anywhere else. As a local trucker, I don't have to tell you how stiff the competition is and this goes for many businesses here in the DR. Businesses will always be looking for an opportunity to cut costs and increase profits; these profits and savings get us through the dry spells. Again, you have stated the truth and I respect that but to cut out small slices of the truth to benefit your argument does everybody an injustice. The truth encompasses a much bigger picture and I hope that you can acknowledge that. Maybe I'm wrong!
Just getting back on this thread....
You make a good point that the Haitians are charging less for labor here in the DR and for this reason, some poor Dominicans are not able to obtain employment. This is true and I will stand on the side of the truth. What is also true is that it takes two hands to clap and without the greed of us businessmen, these poor illegals would never get a job here or anywhere else. As a local trucker, I don't have to tell you how stiff the competition is and this goes for many businesses here in the DR. Businesses will always be looking for an opportunity to cut costs and increase profits; these profits and savings get us through the dry spells. Again, you have stated the truth and I respect that but to cut out small slices of the truth to benefit your argument does everybody an injustice. The truth encompasses a much bigger picture and I hope that you can acknowledge that. Maybe I'm wrong!
It is a simple matter of market economics that employers, anywhere will choose the labor option with the less costs.
Haitian workers are desperate, used to hardships and require less maintenance, that means less breaks, food, or benefits, that Dominican workers demand. They also work not only for less but for "whatever" the wages, so one day they might demand less than others. All this depresses the labor market for Dominican workers and lowers wages for Dominicans. The other side of the coin is that heavy use of manual labor, prolongs and delays needed mechanization of agriculture and construction industries, which is a even worse result, as thus increases our dependency on cheap, illegal manual labor.
Haitian illegals are costly in other ways as they use and abuse our hospitals, water, transportation, education, housing and electricity systems.
Haitians are elbowing their way into the DR food table, contributing nothing in return.
I say again, kick the illegals out ASAP!
Sorry, I should be "politically correct", instead of "kicking them out", gently put them in a bus (preferably air conditioned) and deliver them to the border Haitian authorities.lol.
Does that sound better? Same results!
from: united states
dr needs to mechanize more of its farm work, where possible.
now their is one great answer for at least one of the problem's.
now if u can stop the army from being greedy at the border that also would be a big plus, and i would think the biggest plus for the dr..
they are passing the border's since this is where all of the problems start from it would seem to me close up the borders, deport the ones that do not have a visa or a work permit. if u stop it at the root many of the problems would go away. yes some would pass by themselfs this hapens in all countrys. but at the least u would be in some kind of control.
if the police stop the ones in the dr and they do not have the correct papers deport them back to their country. some where along the lines of what the state of arizon wants to do. and which was critized by many on this site arizona and the dr have this right to protect their own borders.
How would you go about fixing this problem?
1 April 2011
Is immigration policy killing the American Dream?
By Katie Connolly
BBC News, Washington
The US government has beefed up security at the Mexico border in recent years.
It's a story repeated throughout American culture, in theatre, film and novels: the penniless immigrant arrives on American shores seeking a new life and, through hard work and determination, prospers and thrives.
Such tales are a quintessential part of the "American Dream", the idea that anyone willing to work hard and think big can come to the US and "make it".
But, at a time when immigration is a divisive, hot-button political issue, is that dream still possible?
That quota is easily filled every year. Before the recession, it was filled in the same month the visas were released.
At the moment, Mr Johnson says, it gets filled in eight or nine months, meaning that for several months of the year, H1B visas simply are not available regardless of the demand for them.
For unskilled labourers, the US grants just 5,000 work visas each year to people employed in fields other than agriculture.
Yet, according to Maurice Belanger, a director at the National Immigration Forum, the US economy was absorbing about 300,000 such workers each year prior to the recession.
The threat of deportation hangs over their American dreams. Those penniless immigrants are not thriving like their celebrated predecessors."
So the US only allows 5,000 VISAS for low skilled workers PER YEAR!!
DR needs to adopt a version of this policy and allow high skilled workers into DR; we have too many low skill workers already.
So having a useless Goverment ran by useless individuals, which care Nothing about MY PROBLEMS, i ask, WHAT a F.. i'm i suppossed to do while the city that i have been living and my country is FLOODED with these UNINVITED individuals?? i want people to put themselves IN MY SHOES.
Its all part of the concession your government have to make in other to get these foreign investments to come in. Welcome to globalization, Socialism is dead get use to it.
I can do that example ALL NIGHT LONG with all Kinds of nationalities present on the americas, as i said, if the people who come were QUALITY people that contributes at least to add value to the workforce, this will not be an issue!
Why is that?
Sounds like a war declaration. What are you proposing that the citizens do, specifically? Please don't hide behind ambiguity and a general recommendation for confrontation. By perception, it tells us that in the face of real confrontation, we will expect to find you hiding behind something or under something, like a bed.
I'm here in DR, i think i will be here for a while, this would be something that would like to bring up at the next municipal meeting in Los Almacigos where i will be staying for most of the time.
I see some miss me (ignorance) but I have given up on dialogue to solve this dilemma !
Good luck discussing peaceful option with people wh never understood peace...
Adieu mes Amis
Si vis pacem para bellum !!!
If they are there illegally the Puerto Rican government and its people should deport them promptly. Bottom line.
You answered your question. When will Puerto Ricans "plain and simple so put all the hate and racism away. It would be a better world if we were more concerned with helping each other up instead of tearing each other down."?
You think Puerto Ricans would allow their small towns and cities to be inundated by waves of desperately poor Dominicans pissing and pooping everywhere? You think Puerto Ricans would have an issue with waves of poor Dominican children stopping traffic and pedestrians asking for small change? and how would Puerto Rico's Tourist sector enjoy desperately poor Dominicans haggling their customers? Think before you write. While illegal Dominicans reside in PR and elsewhere, seldom will you hear about them resorting to the base, minimalist survival antics on display in DR from the waves of illegals from the West. Think before you write.
On the noose.
were are not responsible for Haitis failed policies, they have run their country into the ground and now that we are in the process of modernizing they attemp to bring us down the same road they traveled.
I would like to see nothing more than Haiti on its feet which means that we will be left alone. I am all for international aid to Haiti, but we cannot solve your problems, we don't have the means.
The reason for these differences is simply numbers. Whereas the illegal immigration to US, PR is somewhat absorbed by the economies in these country in DR the illegal Haitians are too much in numbers to be absorbed by DR economy, thus the street beggars and vendors, the relieving of oneself in the streets (many illegals have no housing or plumbing ). You don't find Dominicans behaving like this in PR.
So to compare DR and Haitian illegal immigration does us a disservice. One is a migratory exercise the other is akin to an invasion.
Deport 1 million for starters beginning with the homeless, the shackdwellars with no plumbing and especially the criminally minded. There may be thousands upon thousands of illegal Dominicans in PR but we have millions of illegal Haitians in DR.