Santo Domingo.- A delegation of Haitian parliamentarians are setting out for the Dominican
Republic for a nine day trip, aimed at shedding light on the murder
investigation of Rooldine Lindor.
Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Chamber of
Deputies, Altes Toussaint, announced the intentions of the
team to inquire from August 4th to the 13th on the progress of the
investigation.
The investigation of murdered Haitian student, Rooldine
Lindor, whose body was found on July 12 in Santo Domingo has so far
held two men as suspects.
Parliamentarians said that working sessions were held with
individuals from concerned ministries such as the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs and the Ministry of Haitians Living Abroad, to prepare the trip.
Toussaint, the member of parliament representing Saint-Marc, said
the delegation will be composed of seven members, two journalists
and relatives of the victim, including the Ambassador of Haiti in
Dominican Republic, members of several communities of Haitians and
judiciary and parliamentarian Dominicans.
Written by: generoso, 31 Jul 2011 7:34 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Investigations should be done by police homicidal and forensic experts not rank and file politicians.
DR should not be lured into participating in what is a police case, not a political spectacle by "diplomats and parliamentarians" wanting their shameless search for favorable public spotlight.
DR should welcome Haitian or other police experts to investigate the case, and help condem the culprits involved. But the DR should be very careful not to let this sad and terrible homicide, be spinned into a political circus.
From: Dominican Republic, Santiago
Thank You generoso. More should support your view. Also, while the delegation is in my country maybe they should take a look at the despicable conditions their illegal countrymen create and live in on my soil.
Maybe they should take a few back with them and take care of them. The delegation has time to investigate the murder why not investigate the illegals and the terrible problem they present.
Send them back quickly
Written by: Atabey, 31 Jul 2011 9:37 AM
From: United States, NYC
Agreed. Get the ball rolling for exists back to Haiti for the many ill-housed and beggars about that make visiting DR a hassle for many foreigners. If DR wants to attract more foreigners to roam the interior of the nation, and spend their money outside all-inclusive offerings, it needs to stem the tide of beggars and petty individuals causing nuisance to travelers to our land.
Generoso, that tragic event, the killing of the Haitian student, needs prompt police action; this diplomatic basket case attempt is more for show. The killers should rut in jail.
Written by: Micaela, 31 Jul 2011 10:05 AM
From: Dominican Republic
A delegation to investigate? Except to use them in their foreign policy strategy of ‘poor Haitian victims’, they ever hardly show any interest, nor in the death, neither in the murderers; so I suppose that this was a rich kid, and If that is the case fat chance that government and elite members would care to take look at any poor illegal immigrants, even if they stand in their faces.
Written by: Eriliza, 31 Jul 2011 11:59 AM
From: United States, Boston, MA
A nin-day trip, or shall I say a nine-day vacation to the DR?
From: Dominican Republic, Santiago de los 30 Caballeros
The shameless hollow opportunity is worth a thousand words. And the incorrigible Haitian ruling class and the military leadership is looking for absolutely anything to hold onto, and shameless political banter is par for the course.
From: United States, Brooklyn
If you want a word with them go to Punta Cana
Written by: ateo2010 
, 31 Jul 2011 5:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Owning Noobs
here comes the muds.
From: Iran, DirectorioDominicano.com
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!! The Dominican Authorities Should Be the Only Ones Entrusted in Shedding Any Light on Any Crime Committed on Dominican Soil. Send The Bums Back!!
This is even laughable, it's so ridiculous that these people are even allowed to enter our sovereign nation!! Seems like we have a bunch of Pu$$ies running our nation.
This sets a very bad precedent.
COÑO! QUE VAINA QUE ME PRENDE!
Written by: inter, 31 Jul 2011 7:03 PM
From: Spain, SPAIN
I agree not any murder is simple, but the investigation should be done only by dominican authoities, or tell me when a dominican is killed in the states, europe or somewhere else have you heard about dominican delegations allowed to come and be part of the investiogation? of course not!!! and also dominican authorities know their place to be and the investigation bereaucratics at least.
From: United States
headline
Haitian delegation to arrive in Dominican Republic to probe into murder
under what proper purview? since when do delegations investigate murders? correct me if i misspeak, but that is, in my understanding, a law enforcement issue. as Vince Lombardi used to ask..¨what the hell is going on here¨?
Written by: kennyB, 1 Aug 2011 8:02 AM
From: United States
Where is Jim Harrington when you need him?
Written by: etiennc, 1 Aug 2011 12:00 PM
From: United States
I need these assholes to investigate the murders of haitian women everyday in the hands of haitian men_
I want them to investigate the business of bringing and renting haitian zombies by haitians criminals to work as slaves on plantations_
I want them to investigate the activities of haitian pimps who have scores of haitian prostitutes working for them_
While they are there , I want them to take a good look of the progress of a country that their grand fathers have ruled for 24 years. Upon retuning to Haiti maybe their conscience will dictate them to down sit with Michel Marthelly to for a governmen that begins to cure the haitian disease__
If they think thay may make some money out of this sad event, they are heading for a biggest disappointment__Dominicans will call all their bluffs__
We will aslo monitor in wich resorts they are wasting the haitian people money___
Written by: Nehesy, 1 Aug 2011 12:24 PM
From: France, Paris
To all the bad mouths , I really hope that nothing similar will happened to one of your women relatives , like what happened to that student.
I really wonder what a murder/rape case regarding a legal ( student) haitian has to do will all the racist/ hatred garbage that you're uttering here ?
Only a bunch of ignorant/racists haters calling the kettle black (negroides ?) when 90 % of you are negroides...Ask to the puerto ricans if you don't believe me or if you don't have a mirror at home.
May GOD bless this young lady who died, and support her mother in her grievance.
I 'd expect that a " woman" who obviously gave birth to children could have understand how is it painful for a mother to lost a child, but she is worth than anydody...May God help you to get off that hatred...
Two French girls have been killed (one raped) in Argentina, French Politics and their families are going to Argentina. What is the problem with that ?
From: United States
This criminal act against this young lady should be vigorously investigated and prosecuted. This Haitian delegation is coming merely as observers to let authorities know that this wasn't some illegal begger or criminally minded individual. This was 1st a young lady and 2nd an educated student here legally trying to make herself a better human being, trying to progress. I see nothing wrong with family and other interested parties coming to ensure justice is done. Let us have some sympathy for her and her family.
However the visiting party should take time to see how their bretherens are living and try to adrress the conditions at home forcing them to migrate en masse rather than spending time around the pool and casinos. This should not be taken as a vacation as it would be an affront to the family of this child.
Written by: etiennc, 1 Aug 2011 2:37 PM
From: United States
vaganzaderafael___They should extend their investigation in trying to find out why haitian women are being brutalized ,maimed and killed everyday in the hands of their haitian compatriots_What is good fot the geese is good for the gender__Kownwing the temperament of these people , I would not be a bit surprised that they come here to discuss a pay off for the death of that poor woman_When they return to Haiti I suggest they open an investigation on the assassination of their own__
From: Haiti
vagan
I agree with you vagan. if our government doing this act for all people, i think the haitian will be respect in dr. The fact, usually our government don't act to protect our countrymen doing a lot of people haitian are at risk in rep dominican.
From: Haiti
ETIENNE
you have a name of haitian.
Are you a haitian who is frustrated that has dominican paper? LOL. anyway.
Let me put you this question, if in dominicani you don't have a lot of justice, it's normal FOR YOU a countrymen become victim in another country and you don't have justice or your government who ask justice for you?
respect the victim please, i think if the victim was murdered in haiti and your parliaments come haiti you will applaud them.
Written by: etiennc, 2 Aug 2011 9:28 AM
From: United States
Kiskeyaman, I am Haitian and I am proud to be Haitian__
I know a little more of the history of these two countries and I am able to tell you that I hate the hypocrisy, the cynism usually demonstrated by our compatriots.
What I am saying : young Haitians women get abused, killed, raped everyday in the tents in Haiti.
Young haitian women get killed everyday in DR by their haitian compatriots_
Young haitian women get abused , raped ,humiliated ,forced to work as prostituts every day by haitian men.
your lazy ass parliamentaries are busy killing each other,stealing and trying to destroy Merthelly's presidency.
We have Hians crossing the border with zombies to rent to work on platantions, bringing young children to work as prostitutes, gardeners . beggars and servants.
This is what these meat heads should investigate.Not a young Haitian who got killed by petty criminals.The criminals were caught immediately and are now in jail_What more do they want?MONEY?
Written by: etiennc, 2 Aug 2011 9:32 AM
From: United States
When someone is well versed in the history of these country, they are objective___and fair__
If this delegation is about calming the spirits so it will not be any retaliation againts Dominicans in Haiti, I welcome them__But if this about trying to get money from the dominican governmemt and spend some time in the resorts__eating well and gambling__I say: shame on them__
From: Haiti
Etienne
'your lazy ass parliamentaries are busy killing each other,stealing and trying to destroy Merthelly's presidency'
if it's true you are haitian why you tell me your lazy ass parliamentaries? It's also your parliamentaries too. Yes i think some haitians knows thoses situations in haiti, but all haitians are not hypocrits.
You tell me you are proud to be haitian, let me tell you i have some doubt.
when we are proud to belong to a nation we do not talk like you do.
, i don't sell its with the other nation as you do it. You speak always the bad things of this country. Haiti is not only the bad things. A lot of haitian workers work to improove this country. We have also made some progress!
From: Haiti
ETIENNE2
You stay in usa and you tell anything, it's a shame for you to critic without to give some solutions.
maybe you are french, or french west indies, but i am sure you're not haitian. If true look at you in a mirror. The most haitian who live in DR,should gather the two nations instead of adding fuel to the fire. you act like some ignorant of the dominican who keep in the heart the hatred for this nation.
i don' t see your proud to be haitian. did you think you help this nations.
do you think that you help haiti by denigrating? anyway you're not haitian.
From: Haiti
ETIENNE 3
it's true then it would better to send the ministry of foreign. but haiti has not government.
It's true, many of the members are a lot of default but their actions are loyables.Ils want to know that these thugs will have that they deserve.
It's time to protect the haitians whatever their level social live
Written by: etiennc, 2 Aug 2011 4:50 PM
From: United States
kiskeyaman,Ii have freed myself from all the misinformations that I have had against the Dominican people.I have read the ugliest chapters of their history under Haitian rule and I have to commend them for forgiving and accepting Haitians in their midst, sharing their food with them,giving them work and giving them shelter.
Read these chapters,visit their country ,be a witness to their know how and their progress and you will feel the same way like me:Objective,fair,educated,less jealous.
Everyone except Haitians are to be blamed for Haiti shortcomings.
I am just trying to warn you about a pack of useless fools coming to a country with the mother a young girl who was assassinated by a bunch of petty criminals to antagonize the Dominican people
(Read the above posts)
Who they want to see?The chief of police or Leonel Fernandez?
What do they want to know? Whether the criminals were caught?YES THEY WERE CAUGHT
Then What?They will be tried and put in jail if found guilty
Written by: etiennc, 2 Aug 2011 5:02 PM
From: United States
I do feel sorry for the death of the girl and do extend my sincere condolances to the family but this is not what should be the priority for these marooners(neg mawon)__They should keep their butts in Haiti and help Michel Martheely have a working government__instead of coming here to hide for nine days__A few phone calls to the chief of police or the mayor of Santo Domingo shoulf have sufficed__
They are (so called)palementaries and their job is to pass laws___
Visiting a foreigh country to investigate the death of a citizen on foreigh soil is the job of the secretary of state___the prime minister__
They just want to embarass Michel Marthelly__Michel pa Preval__Yab jween avèl tou__
Written by: Nehesy, 3 Aug 2011 7:49 AM
From: France, Paris
"I have read the ugliest chapters of their history under Haitian rule "
Please Etienne inform me about this allegation ( books, references etc) because I read many books including Pr Moya Pons the foremost Dominican Historian (Historia Dominicana) and these ugly chapters are not presented regarding the Haitian occupation/Rule.
Dessalines and his troops did lot of mischieves in 1805 ( murder, killing, burning) when he tried to conquer the DR...I suspect that many Dominicans generalized 1805 events to the 22 yrs Haitian presence...But nothing similar happened during the 22 yrs occupation (not present in Moyan Pons book). They only kicked out the old slave masters and gave the lands to the former slaves.
1/2
Written by: Nehesy, 3 Aug 2011 8:06 AM
From: France, Paris
2/2
The slave masters fled to PR, Cuba and since that day have an agenda to despise haitians.
I wonder how a country ,who lived many centuries under spanish rule colonization/oppression (wiped out the tainos and oppressed their african ancestors slaves via slavery and bad treatments), and who fought them for their independence in 1865 (21 yrs after Haitians).... still Celebrate their independence against Haitians (only 22 yrs of presence)...
This celebrattion , has obviously a national brainwashing purpose...Because the true oppressors where the spanish (who imported dogs in la hispaniola to eat the poor Tainos who hid in the forest to escape the spanish, and imported thousands of africans slaves to replace the Tainos slaves whom they called "gente sin razon" )
Etienne please give me your references about Haitians mischieves during the 22 years occupation.
I'm not Haitian/ Dominican, so just want to know the truth...
Written by: etiennc, 3 Aug 2011 2:14 PM
From: United States
Quisqueyaman__Marthelly was in town__Did he say anything about the murder of that woman__?
This a crime commited by vulgar pretty criminals____
From: United States
Nehesy I will answer your querries to Etiennc.
The reason we celebrate our independence from Haiti is obvious because 1) It was the first independence where blood was sacrificed. Although we had established independence from the french thru force of arms and blood sacrifice back in 1810 (the french had assumed control from Spain of Spanish Santo Domingo thru the Treaty of Ryswick in 1797) the population of Spanish Santo Domingo still considered themselves Spanish citizens and willingly gave control of the land back to the Spanish crown which at that time was under the boot of Napolean and whose very act precipitated a nationalistic fervor in Santo Domingo at the subjugation of the motherland to france.
When Spain regained its freedom from Napolean it occupied its resources in bringinging the rebellious American mainland colonies back under its rule. This period is known as the epoch of Espana Boba or " dumb Spain" because very little resources were dedicated to Santo Domingo.
From: United States
Cont.
When after 10 yrs of this lackadaisical attitude towards us from Spain we figured we might as well be on our own and control our own destiny. We naively sent word to our sister republic of Haiti so they would welcome us as a sovereign state and received in response an invasion army at the gates of the capitol that numbered more than the inhabitants of Santo Domingo. I believe any people would be outraged by such a treacherous and cowardly act against a basically defenseless and unarmed population.
Thus began 22 yrs of subjugation to another french speaking power (after the ordeal of 1797-1810) not to mention former slaves of the french. To compound the situation atrocities were committed to quell any rebellion among which were the throwing of babies in the air and spearing them with spears as they fell as well as bathing in the milk meant for these babies. Atrocities which have withstood the test of time and remain inbedded in the Dominican psyche.
From: United States
Cont.
The Haitians also forced many Dominicans to labor to help pay the outrageous and scandelous indemnity france imposed on Haiti so they wouldn't invade them. Like that cowardly act of submission to the frenchies had anything to do with us.
When after the war of Independence in 1844 and 3 more wars to thwart other invasions into our territory by the Haitians (hard headed mfs could'nt get it in their heads) our president Santana tired of fighting the Haitians every 4 yrs gave our sovereignty back to Spain. Many Dominicans were against this surrender of our hard earned independence and we had to fight our former motherland for 5 yrs.
At least we did receive help from the Haitians in this endeavor although it was because of their actions against us that precipitated the causes for this 2nd war of independence.
Also while the french harshly mistreated their slaves, the Spanish though abusive in their treatment of our Taino and African ancestors procreated with them to produc
From: United States
Cont.
To pruduce us. So it was'nt just a slave master that was chased out of the Spanish side when the Haitians invaded, it was our fathers our uncles our white brothers and sisters. We did not share the same slave conditions the african slaves in Haiti sufferred under the frenchies. And many white families were not able to afford to emmigrate and thus had to withstand being a 2nd class citizen to a bunch of black former slaves in our own land.
So I hope this answers why we Dominicans of ALL colors so vehemently celebrate our independence from an uneducated barbaric horde whom we had never offended or participated in their mistreatment.
Had the Haitian gov't at that time (1820) behaved more humanly with brotherly love and aid for a nascent and humble people seeking fraternity and mutual protection against a mutual enemy (the french) our sad history could have been avoided.
From: Haiti
Etienne
masters of slavery Have Lied to the Dominicans so the Hatred That to divide the Two Peoples.
I think you should not leave your country because there are some who just quoi.moi I think that you are not Haitian.
SIW Te Haitian pa tap or decene figuw to his Dominican vieu not yo ki vo ke more new
From: Haiti
SIW TE HAITIEN Ou pa tak decenn figuw siw feli se on trahison mon cher.
All haitian are not jealous.
Objective? no you are not, you have betrayed your country. But you're not haitian even you tell me few words creol lol.
' Quisqueyaman__Marthelly was in town__Did he say anything about the murder of that woman__?
This a crime commited by vulgar pretty criminals____'
Yes Martelly have condamn this murder, and this presence in DR. is not for talk only about the problem at MALPASS.
VANGAN IS WRONG, never the haitian forced the dominican to help him to pay france. i going to read the rest of your sentences to answer you.
From: Haiti
NEHESY what IS your nationality?
From: United States
vergabzaderafael states
Atrocities which have withstood the test of time and remain inbedded in the Dominican psyche.
i rarely get involved in matters of the heart when they are discussed in a forum like this. i am not Dominican, therefore the way i view this matter is with far less visceral passion. however, i cannot understand what the statement is supposed to mean. to my way of thinking, nothing remains embedded in the psyche of anyone. that is a ridiculous statement. i grew up in a time of really serious discrimination in the USA, and endured several humiliations and insults, because of my color. when my grandchildren are born, they will not have my experiences ¨embedded in their psyche¨. if i choose to instil it into them that white people are racists, they will have it branded into them. if i take a different road, and indoctrinate them differently, they will not have my experiences to format their thinking.
From: United States
when schools teach that Haitians are the natural enemies of Dominicans, and vice versa, of course there will be this animosity. sadly, people profit from it all varying levels of the social experience. i fail to see how a 19 year old kid can hate Haitians for something which took place in 1822. well, i do understand it. his parents, friends, and teachers, tell him to.
From: United States
Kman comment est vous? Perhaps I was not clear in my comments. The Haitian authorities during the occupation didn't necessary enslave the Dominican workers, however our national production was used to help pay the indemnity instead of going to build infrastructure. So in a way one can say that Dominican production was used to help with the indemnity. And I repeat we had kicked the frenchies out six years after you did. The Spanish abandoned us so the only threat to both our nations were the frenchies. We should have been independent allies against their avarice. Boyer should have told them to shove their indemnity demands up their derriers and dared them to try and take the island again so they could suffer the same fate they suffered at the hands of Christophe, Dessalines and Petion. Instead he chose to take advantage of our vulnerability (lack of population and lack of weapons) for his glorification.
From: United States
Dread you obviously answered your own question. Yes the atrocities committed by the Haitian invaders to our country were part of our upbringing part of our history. Many Dominican families sufferred and fought against them and the stories were handed down like an inheritance. Part of my ancestors fought in the war of independence as well as the wars of 1848, 1852, 1856. These historical events are imbedded in the following generations just as any other nation in the world. I do not espouse the hatred that comes with it though many people do. My grandfather adopted an orphaned Haitian boy and protected him at the risk of his life during the massacre of poor Haitian migrants during the 1930s. An act which has brought hatred of Dominicans by many Haitians I'm sure. We can continue this cycle of hatred or we can as you put it teach our children different values. One thing is to study history, another is to let it dictate how we behave towards the descendants of its participants.
From: United States
I was merely answering nehesy's querry as to his interpretation of the Haitian occupation as a benign exercise in nation building by the Haitian gov't of that time. Personally I have more animosity towards your people(north americans) for interfering with our struggles for true democracy in the early 60's and being directly responible for the death of one of the greatest Dominican patriots and a member of my family, Colonel Rafael Fernandez Dominguez. Yet I have learned to forgive that interference.
Written by: etiennc, 3 Aug 2011 11:56 PM
From: United States
kiskeyaman, while you are isulting me guided by your vain nationalism thousands of haitain are trying to enter the DR illegally and legally____"The president came to discuss the problem at Malpass"__Things have changed__Usually Haitian presidents are vulgar cowards who are scared to discuss any concerns with their Dominicans counterparts__________
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 6:15 AM
From: France, Paris
Venganzaderafael
Thks for your clear explanation , even if I do not agree with all you said but at least I have an educated point view without ignorants comments, and with your own feelings.
Can you please provide me a bibliography about Haitians' exactions committed specially regarding your statement :
"the throwing of babies in the air and spearing them with spears as they fell as well as bathing in the milk meant for these babies. Atrocities which have withstood the test of time and remain inbedded in the Dominican psyche"
It looks like Las Casas' description of the spanish exactions against the Tainos.
I read Moya Pons (Manual de Historia Dominicana) , Jaime De Jesus Dominguez (Historia Dominicana) or Carlos esteban deive (Los Guerrilleros Negros ) ==> I could not find one example of these atrocities save during 1805 Dessalines' attack (which was TOTALLY wrong).
Please provide me a book reference. Many Thanks !
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 6:28 AM
From: France, Paris
In Jaime de Jesus Dominguez's book he recorded the NEGATIVE and POSITIVE aspects of the Haitian 22 yrs occupation, yet I could not find such atrocities, and his book received a national prize in the DR.
If you read "Los Guerrilleros Negros" by Carlos Esteban Deive (wrote from the spanish and santo domingo archives) , he says that Haitian occupation and even a Union with Haiti was welcomed by most of the Dominicans. The CIBAO region wanted that union with Haiti too.
In this same book he says that many africans slaves from spanish santo domingo fled to Haiti and many (MORE) africans slaves from french St Domingue fled to santo Domingo. Spanish officials welcomed them because it was a free source of labor and it was a way to annoy their French ricals who "stole" the eastern part of the island from them.
Many of these slaves from haiti were freed by the spaniards and live in a dedicated place. Many French semi-slaves ( Indentured servants) also fled to the spanish side.
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 6:38 AM
From: France, Paris
......
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 6:38 AM
From: France, Paris
Cont 1
The first slave rebellion in Haiti (1691) was led by whites(indentured servants) and african slaves.
I really suspect that Dessaline soldiers atrocities in 1805 were transferred to the 22 years occupation of the DR
Haitians freed the slaves in Santo Domingo (Blacks and Mulattoes...)
Haitians gave them the lands of the old slave masters
Haitians closed the university because it was only open to the white spanish elite and they persecuted the Church which supported for slavery
So all the rich spanish fled to PR, CUBA where slavery was not abolished
Now I may suspect than forced labor was also part of the occupation (like in haiti) in order to pay back the vampires who oppressed them from 1697 to 1804.
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 6:47 AM
From: France, Paris
Cont 2:
The slave system in the DR was mild ( not quite mild if you read Deive's book...) but the slaves wanted also their liberty. This is why when the Haitian revolution started in 1791, many revolts occured in Santo Domingo, like Boca Nigua (sugar mill).
During Haitian revolution many slave revolts occured also in Puero Rico (see Guillermo Baralt)
Sugar was produced mainly in Cuba (replaced haiti as the 1st world sugar producer after Haitian revolution) , this is why Cubans look like Haitians ( Afro-cubans) and yet in the 18th century there was more africans in PR than Santo Domingo.
When PR abolished slavery in 1873 the MAJORITY of the slaves were mulattoes , so spanish didn't care about their children slaves...
The slave system was not the same in the DR , because spanish went to the mainland (mexico) or nearby islands (PR and Cuba), this is why the sugar plantations disappeared and the Hateros grew up.
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 6:55 AM
From: France, Paris
Cont 3:
I think the more twisted thing is that the spanish elite put in Domincans head that they respected more the Indians ( Indios/ Tainos / Arawaks etc) than Africans when it's absolutely false...
In the first Trapiches (sugar mills) of Santo Domingo Tainos and Africans worked together on the slaves plantations and the overseers and sugar technicians were africans (see William D Phillips). Spanish called the Tainos (gente sin razon) and killed for pleasure or only to feed their hungry dogs ( see Las Casas). This is why Tainos and Africans raised together many times in Santo Domingo , Cuba (see Fernando Ortiz "Negros Brujos") , PR ( Diaz Soler) to chase their oppressors
In Mexico, Gonzalo Aguirre Beltran says the same : Africans were overseers and both indians and africans worked on the plantations. Africans mixed so much with Indians than they fordid such unions ( like in santo domingo in early 16th century)
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 7:08 AM
From: France, Paris
Cont 4:
It was a divide and rule strategy.
The most important thing is that there was black spanish free conquistadores like Pedro Mexia who married a taino caciqua in PR ( in actual place called Loiza) or Juan Garrido who was from the Congo/ Angola region.
Juan Valiente was also a black encomendero and had been provided with INDIAN slaves.
You had Sebastian Toral in Mexico or Juan Bardales in Honduras and it's highly possible that some of them (blacks/ mulattoes) unfortunately participated to the spanish genocide against the indios. As some Indians allies of the spanish participated to the indian genocide...
There was black and mulattoes conquitasdores from spain, west africa and north africa.
You can read Matthew Restall " Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest"
My conclusion is that Spanish never respected africans or indians but they despised even more the native indians whom they regarded as subhumans, chattel slaves or food for their war dogs...
Written by: Nehesy, 4 Aug 2011 7:30 AM
From: France, Paris
But at the end of the day many good people on both sides (DR/Haiti). I saw many friendship ( or family ties) between Dominicans or Haitians. Hope that this friendship/love is superior to that hatred which may exist between them.
From: United States
I find it sttange that "many" Dominicans wanted union with Haiti especially from the Cibao region. My ancestors settled there from Spain and they never espoused such desires. You may quote opinions you have read from authors unknown to you, I'm quoting opinions from my ancestors who lived during this period and experienced personally. The bottom line is Dominicans of that period did not welcome the incursions into our territory then and we are not in accordance with the illegal incursion of today. I have stated at other times that I am for the legalization of Haitian immigrants who were born and raised in DR pre 1995 -2000 for humanitarian purposes.( When Haitian population in DR numbered around 500K). The recent illegal migrations must be reversed also for humanitarian purposes (decent quality of life of Dominicans). Their stay in DR is temporary due to the quake . DR cannot sustain them indefinately.
Written by: Nehesy, 5 Aug 2011 4:32 AM
From: France, Paris
"I find it sttange that "many" Dominicans wanted union with Haiti especially from the Cibao region."
You can find the references in Carlos Esteban Deive's book, " Los Guerrilleros Negros". Cibao officials wanted a union with Haiti and Dessalines. I'll quote the author if I have some time.
And the slaves in the DR wanted also a union with Haiti in order to be freed.
Plus the CIBAO (as nowadays) is more a black/mulatto region than a European looking region ( I don't know who spread this myth...)
Written by: Nehesy, 5 Aug 2011 4:53 AM
From: France, Paris
Regarding Haitians illegals I agree that the DR can't afford them that is total truth.
Unfortunately it seems that your officials let them through. I was in la Romana last year and I spoke with a spanish excutive of a sugar company based in that area (central romana ltd). He told me that almost 95 % of the employees are Haitians and live their with their families.
http://www.centralromana.com.do/index.phpHe also says that their children are provided free school classes (and furnitures) and if they didn't work at school their place would be on the sugar fields...He told me that the top officials are partners with the presidency (meetings with LF and/or his closed men) ....
Meaning that they have "agreements" between them...
When the corruption will cease ( border and government officials who provide haitian labor to the top dominican or foreign companies), illegal Haitian immigration will be highly reduced.
Written by: Nehesy, 5 Aug 2011 6:18 AM
From: France, Paris
"...Today, the Central Romana Corporation has a solid reputation with almost 100 years of experience and a workforce of over 25,000 employees. Its sugar production represents approximately 70% of the total production of the country, exceeding 400,000 annual tons. That makes the company the largest producer and exporter of raw sugar in the Dominican Republic. It is also the largest supplier of refined sugar in the domestic market, which has made Central Romana synonymous with sugar in the Dominican Republic..."
http://www.centralromana.com.do/hist_galfotos.phpMeaning that this company is one of the biigest employer of illegal haitians but will not get any trouble from DR Gov and/or Officials...
From: Haiti
VANGANZA
hi howare you?
are you agree with Nehesy?
I think he gives you a lot of arguments with a lot of books.
I think a lot of stories you know are wrong. It's like i told you the great lies of spanish to divise this island. i agree you canNOT have all haitian illegal, but
hatred between the two peoples should not take place.
They lied to you in order to make you feel more Spanish than haitian lol. master of the slave have Always divised the people who don't have shared their values. A lot of dominican are blinded by these lies historical.
It's not good to the peace of those two countries. It's dangerous for dominican people to cultive the hatred
From: Haiti
Etienne
The president came to discuss the problem at Malpass"__Things have changed__Usually Haitian presidents are vulgar cowards who are scared to discuss any concerns with their Dominicans counterparts
Yes as soon the things will changed i hope with MARTELLY. Because he don't want only rep dr have the tourist because in haiti we have a lot of beautiful place, with a lot of monuments. We have the original monuments in the area. Our people are very nice. And he tell with your president to do all for protect haitian in your country. And i think it's time to close the lies story you have in your country. But to do that we must to open our door to the good dominicans. not the dominicans who have a closed brain can stay at home.
Why Dominicans like you say they are Haitians?
by doing that you act as satan was doing with the snake turning into fruit. In order to mislead the Dominicans like them.
I do not insult you I'm just saying that you are not Haitian.
Written by: generoso, 6 Aug 2011 7:11 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
Monsieur Nehesy:
Let me provide you some heads up on subjects of your interest. First of all, the historical quotations you cited are convenient to your cause, but not regarded as accurate by real historians. The sources
are generic and the veracity is questionable, and much better historical representations and accounts are found in earlier books, some by French authors, including a day by day diary of a ex-Haitian officer that defected out of disgust for the massacres being committed by Haitians. You can also read in Spanish: Gaspar de Arredondo y Pichardo,- Memoria de mi salida de la isla de Santo Domingo el 28 de abril de 1805.
Second the present owners of the central Romana corporation are the Cuban American family exiled from Cuba after the Castro take over, named Fanjul, (two brothers) and reside in Palm Beach and La Romana, and they are both dual citizens, holding Dominican nationality.
Written by: generoso, 6 Aug 2011 7:20 AM
From: United States, Quisqueya
They bought Central Romana from Gulf and Western Americas on a fire sale with very advantageous financial arrangements, after Charles Bludhorn died prematurely, (G & W had purchased the sugar plantation and lands from South Puerto Rico sugar company before that).
What you said about the owners being in bed with all governments is true, but what is misleading is the amount of Haitians that they employ, which is miniscule 5% compared to the amount of other Haitians living and working legally and illegally in DR.
BTW: The Central Romana corporation is run very much like a 1950's Cuban plantation, and true the Haitians are paid slightly above official minimal wages for their labor, but they also are free to not work there or move on to other gainful occupations, so it is a matter of choice. And to my understanding they have many perks and benefits that they enjoy.
There is nothing worse than an superficial magazine "historian" that twists historical facts to fit his own private agenda
Written by: Atabey, 6 Aug 2011 11:11 PM
From: United States, NYC
Written by: venganzaderafael,
"Dread you obviously answered your own question. Yes the atrocities committed by the Haitian invaders to our country were part of our upbringing part of our history. Many Dominican families sufferred and fought against them and the stories were handed down like an inheritance. Part of my ancestors fought in the war of independence as well as the wars of 1848, 1852, 1856. These historical events are imbedded in the following generations just as any other nation in the world. I do not espouse the hatred that comes with it though many people do."
Good that you point out to dready several important reasons for why we Dominicans have the attitude towards our neighbors to the west. I've often told Dready that he needs to read a good historical account of the island so that his understanding of this troubled relationship gains firmer grounds from which to voice his opinions.
For sure no other nation in our Western Hemisphere has had to endure this
Written by: Atabey, 6 Aug 2011 11:13 PM
From: United States, NYC
much madness and systemic failure, actually a massive ecological and nation-state meltdown! And if the numbers were small, say a few thousands coming across the issue would be largely mute; but the numbers are staggering and are well past the million mark! Haiti needs resuscitation on a massive scale and DR can not be its salvation. We can help, as we have done on numerous occasions and continue to do today. But the scale of help needed by Haiti is far beyond anything the DR can supply. And until Haiti respects DR's border by Patrolling and denying its own people unhindered passage across sovereign land, this problem will fester.
From: United States
Professor Atabey opines
Good that you point out to dready several important reasons for why we Dominicans have the attitude towards our neighbors to the west. I've often told Dready that he needs to read a good historical account of the island so that his understanding of this troubled relationship gains firmer grounds from which to voice his opinions.
i am fully aware of the historical issues at play here. i am simply stating that some 16 year old guy has no reason to hate a Haitian because of something that happened in 1844. the USA bombed the heck out of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2, and i have no evidence to suggests that Japanese have a mortal hatred of Americans 70 years later.
From: Haiti
atabey
You are the virus of your country. your heart is full of hatred. go to sleep. YOU MUST stop THE cultUREe OF hatred. Haiti is not the problem of DR. GO to see your President is you are not happy. Or come to live in DR instead to drooling your hatred. your government are very corrupt. Tell your president what he does with the 4 billions That tourists bring?
sure is not the haitian who take it! the unbalance of trade with haitian give 900 000 000 in your country. WITHOUT the workers haitians, your country is finish, the agriculture in dr is alive thanks to haitian worker, the same in the job of build and the hotel.
TELL ABOUT ALSO THE GOOD THINGS
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 5:57 AM
From: France, Paris
Mr Genoroso
" You can also read in Spanish: Gaspar de Arredondo y Pichardo,- Memoria de mi salida de la isla de Santo Domingo el 28 de abril de 1805"
You confirmed what I said. You guys can provide me ONE author who describes the so-called Haitian atrocities from 1822-1844. I never denied Dessalines' crimes in 1805 (let's note that he wanted to kick out the French from the spanish side, and unfortunately some dominicans fought for the French, this is the real causes of his attack)
Frank Moya Pons one of the top five dominican historians NEVER mentioned these events in his "Manual De Historia Dominicana", save the Dessalines havoc in 1805...And the Haitian occupation is detailed fairly in his book. I got this book during my last trip in the DR (from Puerto Rico) and bought it in Rodali's library in Puerto Plata.
So my conclusion is that the so called Haitian atrocities from 1822 to 1844 is a myth/propaganda in order to cause hatred between Dominicans and Haitians,
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 6:19 AM
From: France, Paris
Mr Genoroso
You said "First of all, the historical quotations you cited are convenient to your cause, but not regarded as accurate by real historians"
First I don't have any cause : I'm not Dominican nor Haitian...
With this statement which would be marked by a zero by any univeristy teacher( no sources, no argumentation, no quotes of real historians). You haven't study this part of history (it's obvious..) . So i'm giving you a little Bibliography :
1. Spanish genocides of the Tainos : primary sources
- Fray Bartholomé de las Casas : "Historia de La Indias" ( 3 volumes)
- Fray Bartholomé de las Casas : "A short Account of the Destruction of the Indies"
- Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdés : "La General y natural historia de las Indias"
- Antonio de Herrera y Tordesillas : " Historia general de los hechos de los Castellanos en las islas y tierra firme del Mar Oceano "
All I said about their mischieves was said by Spanish historians and witnesses..
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 6:48 AM
From: France, Paris
2. Spanish genocide : Dominican Historians
- Carlos Esteban Deive : "La Española y la Esclavitud del Indio"
- Jaime de Jesus Dominguez : " Historia Dominicana" ( National prize in the DR,1999)
3. Spanish Genocide : Cuban Historians
- José Antonio Saco : "Historia de la esclavitud de los indios en el nuevo mundo seguida de la Historia de los repartimientos y encomiendas"
4.Spanish Genocide : French Accounts
- Moreau de Saint Mery
- Père Jean Baptiste Du Tertre
- Alexandre Oexmelin : Oexmelin explains why the Bucaneers found so much dogs in the Island ( imported by the spaniards to hunt down the Tainos)
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 6:52 AM
From: France, Paris
5. Haiti and the DR : Union was wanted by Dominicans included the CIBAO. This is why Caceres did a "coup d'état". He didn't want a union with Haiti and called the actual DR " Haiti Espanol"
Frank Moya Pons: Manual de Historia Dominicana
Jaime de Jesus Dominguez : Historia Dominicana
And CIBAO wanted that union ( at that time was lead by a mulatto an ex-slave) :
- Carlos esteban deive " Los Guerrilleros Negros"
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 7:17 AM
From: France, Paris
6. Spanish despised the Indians (supposed cannibals, heathen,sodomites,weak) and there was indian and black slaves in the Trapiches. The Black were orverseers and technicals (for sugar).
- William D Philips : "Slavery from Roman Times to the Early Transatlantic Trade " ==> Check the part about slavery in Santo Domingo
- Mirta J Nieves Mejias (PR) : "Por La Encendida Calle Antillana"
- Gonzalo Aguirre Beltran (Mexico) : "Cuijla : Esbozo etnografico de un pueblo Negro"
- José Antonio Saco ( Cuba) : "Historia de la esclavitud de los indios en el nuevo mundo seguida de la Historia de los repartimientos y encomiendas"
7. There was black and Mulattoes conquistadores : You can see a picture of Juan Garrido in old san juan museum ( Museo de nuestra raiz africana) and also that most of the black slaves were imported from Santo Domingo to PR in the 16th century
- Père Jean Baptiste du Tertre
- Luiz Diaz Soler
- José Antonio Saco
- Matthew Restall
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 7:21 AM
From: France, Paris
8. They fought together the spanish oppression and married together
- Luiz Diaz Soler ( Puerto Rican) : Historia de la esclavitud del Negro en Puerto rico
- José Antonio Saco (Cuban): Historia de la esclavitud de la Raza Africana en el Nuevo Mundo
- Fernando Ortiz ( Cuban) : Los Negros Brujos
- Carlos Esteban Deive (Dominican) : Los Guerrilleros Negros
- Jack D Forbes : Africans and Native Americans
- Jalil Sued badillo (PR) : Puerto Rico Negro
- Celsa Albert Batista : (DR) Mujer Y Esclavitud en Santo Domingo
- Orlando Paterson : Slavery and Social Death
As you can see I did my research and you obviously haven't done yours..Genoroso please be generous to yourself and read some books... Cause ignorance ( somebody said that somebody said that Haitians from 1822 to 1844...) is the root of all evils (racism, hatred , murders etc). My view is only the synthesis of top Historian scholars ...
Written by: Nehesy, 8 Aug 2011 8:17 AM
From: France, Paris
For French African slaves fleeing in Spanish Santo Domingo and Spanish African slaves fleeing in French Haiti on :
Los Gueriilleros Negros : Carlos esteban Deive
Quisqueya la bella : Alan Cambeira
Moreau de St Mery
Gabriel Debien
In santo domingo the place called San Lorenzo de Los Minas welcomed the slaves from Haiti
and here is a confimation
http://www.redpodercomunitario.or....osMina/SanLorenzoLosMinaVilla.htmGenoroso , history is a SCIENCE you can't learn it in Magazine , as you obviously do...LOL
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Investigations should be done by police homicidal and forensic experts not rank and file politicians.
DR should not be lured into participating in what is a police case, not a political spectacle by "diplomats and parliamentarians" wanting their shameless search for favorable public spotlight.
DR should welcome Haitian or other police experts to investigate the case, and help condem the culprits involved. But the DR should be very careful not to let this sad and terrible homicide, be spinned into a political circus.
Maybe they should take a few back with them and take care of them. The delegation has time to investigate the murder why not investigate the illegals and the terrible problem they present.
Send them back quickly
Generoso, that tragic event, the killing of the Haitian student, needs prompt police action; this diplomatic basket case attempt is more for show. The killers should rut in jail.
The shameless hollow opportunity is worth a thousand words. And the incorrigible Haitian ruling class and the military leadership is looking for absolutely anything to hold onto, and shameless political banter is par for the course.
If you want a word with them go to Punta Cana
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!! The Dominican Authorities Should Be the Only Ones Entrusted in Shedding Any Light on Any Crime Committed on Dominican Soil. Send The Bums Back!!
This is even laughable, it's so ridiculous that these people are even allowed to enter our sovereign nation!! Seems like we have a bunch of Pu$$ies running our nation.
This sets a very bad precedent.
COÑO! QUE VAINA QUE ME PRENDE!
Haitian delegation to arrive in Dominican Republic to probe into murder
under what proper purview? since when do delegations investigate murders? correct me if i misspeak, but that is, in my understanding, a law enforcement issue. as Vince Lombardi used to ask..¨what the hell is going on here¨?
Where is Jim Harrington when you need him?
I want them to investigate the business of bringing and renting haitian zombies by haitians criminals to work as slaves on plantations_
I want them to investigate the activities of haitian pimps who have scores of haitian prostitutes working for them_
While they are there , I want them to take a good look of the progress of a country that their grand fathers have ruled for 24 years. Upon retuning to Haiti maybe their conscience will dictate them to down sit with Michel Marthelly to for a governmen that begins to cure the haitian disease__
If they think thay may make some money out of this sad event, they are heading for a biggest disappointment__Dominicans will call all their bluffs__
We will aslo monitor in wich resorts they are wasting the haitian people money___
I really wonder what a murder/rape case regarding a legal ( student) haitian has to do will all the racist/ hatred garbage that you're uttering here ?
Only a bunch of ignorant/racists haters calling the kettle black (negroides ?) when 90 % of you are negroides...Ask to the puerto ricans if you don't believe me or if you don't have a mirror at home.
May GOD bless this young lady who died, and support her mother in her grievance.
I 'd expect that a " woman" who obviously gave birth to children could have understand how is it painful for a mother to lost a child, but she is worth than anydody...May God help you to get off that hatred...
Two French girls have been killed (one raped) in Argentina, French Politics and their families are going to Argentina. What is the problem with that ?
However the visiting party should take time to see how their bretherens are living and try to adrress the conditions at home forcing them to migrate en masse rather than spending time around the pool and casinos. This should not be taken as a vacation as it would be an affront to the family of this child.
I agree with you vagan. if our government doing this act for all people, i think the haitian will be respect in dr. The fact, usually our government don't act to protect our countrymen doing a lot of people haitian are at risk in rep dominican.
you have a name of haitian.
Are you a haitian who is frustrated that has dominican paper? LOL. anyway.
Let me put you this question, if in dominicani you don't have a lot of justice, it's normal FOR YOU a countrymen become victim in another country and you don't have justice or your government who ask justice for you?
respect the victim please, i think if the victim was murdered in haiti and your parliaments come haiti you will applaud them.
I know a little more of the history of these two countries and I am able to tell you that I hate the hypocrisy, the cynism usually demonstrated by our compatriots.
What I am saying : young Haitians women get abused, killed, raped everyday in the tents in Haiti.
Young haitian women get killed everyday in DR by their haitian compatriots_
Young haitian women get abused , raped ,humiliated ,forced to work as prostituts every day by haitian men.
your lazy ass parliamentaries are busy killing each other,stealing and trying to destroy Merthelly's presidency.
We have Hians crossing the border with zombies to rent to work on platantions, bringing young children to work as prostitutes, gardeners . beggars and servants.
This is what these meat heads should investigate.Not a young Haitian who got killed by petty criminals.The criminals were caught immediately and are now in jail_What more do they want?MONEY?
If this delegation is about calming the spirits so it will not be any retaliation againts Dominicans in Haiti, I welcome them__But if this about trying to get money from the dominican governmemt and spend some time in the resorts__eating well and gambling__I say: shame on them__
'your lazy ass parliamentaries are busy killing each other,stealing and trying to destroy Merthelly's presidency'
if it's true you are haitian why you tell me your lazy ass parliamentaries? It's also your parliamentaries too. Yes i think some haitians knows thoses situations in haiti, but all haitians are not hypocrits.
You tell me you are proud to be haitian, let me tell you i have some doubt.
when we are proud to belong to a nation we do not talk like you do.
, i don't sell its with the other nation as you do it. You speak always the bad things of this country. Haiti is not only the bad things. A lot of haitian workers work to improove this country. We have also made some progress!
You stay in usa and you tell anything, it's a shame for you to critic without to give some solutions.
maybe you are french, or french west indies, but i am sure you're not haitian. If true look at you in a mirror. The most haitian who live in DR,should gather the two nations instead of adding fuel to the fire. you act like some ignorant of the dominican who keep in the heart the hatred for this nation.
i don' t see your proud to be haitian. did you think you help this nations.
do you think that you help haiti by denigrating? anyway you're not haitian.
it's true then it would better to send the ministry of foreign. but haiti has not government.
It's true, many of the members are a lot of default but their actions are loyables.Ils want to know that these thugs will have that they deserve.
It's time to protect the haitians whatever their level social live
Read these chapters,visit their country ,be a witness to their know how and their progress and you will feel the same way like me:Objective,fair,educated,less jealous.
Everyone except Haitians are to be blamed for Haiti shortcomings.
I am just trying to warn you about a pack of useless fools coming to a country with the mother a young girl who was assassinated by a bunch of petty criminals to antagonize the Dominican people
(Read the above posts)
Who they want to see?The chief of police or Leonel Fernandez?
What do they want to know? Whether the criminals were caught?YES THEY WERE CAUGHT
Then What?They will be tried and put in jail if found guilty
They are (so called)palementaries and their job is to pass laws___
Visiting a foreigh country to investigate the death of a citizen on foreigh soil is the job of the secretary of state___the prime minister__
They just want to embarass Michel Marthelly__Michel pa Preval__Yab jween avèl tou__
"I have read the ugliest chapters of their history under Haitian rule "
Please Etienne inform me about this allegation ( books, references etc) because I read many books including Pr Moya Pons the foremost Dominican Historian (Historia Dominicana) and these ugly chapters are not presented regarding the Haitian occupation/Rule.
Dessalines and his troops did lot of mischieves in 1805 ( murder, killing, burning) when he tried to conquer the DR...I suspect that many Dominicans generalized 1805 events to the 22 yrs Haitian presence...But nothing similar happened during the 22 yrs occupation (not present in Moyan Pons book). They only kicked out the old slave masters and gave the lands to the former slaves.
1/2
The slave masters fled to PR, Cuba and since that day have an agenda to despise haitians.
I wonder how a country ,who lived many centuries under spanish rule colonization/oppression (wiped out the tainos and oppressed their african ancestors slaves via slavery and bad treatments), and who fought them for their independence in 1865 (21 yrs after Haitians).... still Celebrate their independence against Haitians (only 22 yrs of presence)...
This celebrattion , has obviously a national brainwashing purpose...Because the true oppressors where the spanish (who imported dogs in la hispaniola to eat the poor Tainos who hid in the forest to escape the spanish, and imported thousands of africans slaves to replace the Tainos slaves whom they called "gente sin razon" )
Etienne please give me your references about Haitians mischieves during the 22 years occupation.
I'm not Haitian/ Dominican, so just want to know the truth...
This a crime commited by vulgar pretty criminals____
The reason we celebrate our independence from Haiti is obvious because 1) It was the first independence where blood was sacrificed. Although we had established independence from the french thru force of arms and blood sacrifice back in 1810 (the french had assumed control from Spain of Spanish Santo Domingo thru the Treaty of Ryswick in 1797) the population of Spanish Santo Domingo still considered themselves Spanish citizens and willingly gave control of the land back to the Spanish crown which at that time was under the boot of Napolean and whose very act precipitated a nationalistic fervor in Santo Domingo at the subjugation of the motherland to france.
When Spain regained its freedom from Napolean it occupied its resources in bringinging the rebellious American mainland colonies back under its rule. This period is known as the epoch of Espana Boba or " dumb Spain" because very little resources were dedicated to Santo Domingo.
When after 10 yrs of this lackadaisical attitude towards us from Spain we figured we might as well be on our own and control our own destiny. We naively sent word to our sister republic of Haiti so they would welcome us as a sovereign state and received in response an invasion army at the gates of the capitol that numbered more than the inhabitants of Santo Domingo. I believe any people would be outraged by such a treacherous and cowardly act against a basically defenseless and unarmed population.
Thus began 22 yrs of subjugation to another french speaking power (after the ordeal of 1797-1810) not to mention former slaves of the french. To compound the situation atrocities were committed to quell any rebellion among which were the throwing of babies in the air and spearing them with spears as they fell as well as bathing in the milk meant for these babies. Atrocities which have withstood the test of time and remain inbedded in the Dominican psyche.
The Haitians also forced many Dominicans to labor to help pay the outrageous and scandelous indemnity france imposed on Haiti so they wouldn't invade them. Like that cowardly act of submission to the frenchies had anything to do with us.
When after the war of Independence in 1844 and 3 more wars to thwart other invasions into our territory by the Haitians (hard headed mfs could'nt get it in their heads) our president Santana tired of fighting the Haitians every 4 yrs gave our sovereignty back to Spain. Many Dominicans were against this surrender of our hard earned independence and we had to fight our former motherland for 5 yrs.
At least we did receive help from the Haitians in this endeavor although it was because of their actions against us that precipitated the causes for this 2nd war of independence.
Also while the french harshly mistreated their slaves, the Spanish though abusive in their treatment of our Taino and African ancestors procreated with them to produc
To pruduce us. So it was'nt just a slave master that was chased out of the Spanish side when the Haitians invaded, it was our fathers our uncles our white brothers and sisters. We did not share the same slave conditions the african slaves in Haiti sufferred under the frenchies. And many white families were not able to afford to emmigrate and thus had to withstand being a 2nd class citizen to a bunch of black former slaves in our own land.
So I hope this answers why we Dominicans of ALL colors so vehemently celebrate our independence from an uneducated barbaric horde whom we had never offended or participated in their mistreatment.
Had the Haitian gov't at that time (1820) behaved more humanly with brotherly love and aid for a nascent and humble people seeking fraternity and mutual protection against a mutual enemy (the french) our sad history could have been avoided.
masters of slavery Have Lied to the Dominicans so the Hatred That to divide the Two Peoples.
I think you should not leave your country because there are some who just quoi.moi I think that you are not Haitian.
SIW Te Haitian pa tap or decene figuw to his Dominican vieu not yo ki vo ke more new
All haitian are not jealous.
Objective? no you are not, you have betrayed your country. But you're not haitian even you tell me few words creol lol.
' Quisqueyaman__Marthelly was in town__Did he say anything about the murder of that woman__?
This a crime commited by vulgar pretty criminals____'
Yes Martelly have condamn this murder, and this presence in DR. is not for talk only about the problem at MALPASS.
VANGAN IS WRONG, never the haitian forced the dominican to help him to pay france. i going to read the rest of your sentences to answer you.
Atrocities which have withstood the test of time and remain inbedded in the Dominican psyche.
i rarely get involved in matters of the heart when they are discussed in a forum like this. i am not Dominican, therefore the way i view this matter is with far less visceral passion. however, i cannot understand what the statement is supposed to mean. to my way of thinking, nothing remains embedded in the psyche of anyone. that is a ridiculous statement. i grew up in a time of really serious discrimination in the USA, and endured several humiliations and insults, because of my color. when my grandchildren are born, they will not have my experiences ¨embedded in their psyche¨. if i choose to instil it into them that white people are racists, they will have it branded into them. if i take a different road, and indoctrinate them differently, they will not have my experiences to format their thinking.
Thks for your clear explanation , even if I do not agree with all you said but at least I have an educated point view without ignorants comments, and with your own feelings.
Can you please provide me a bibliography about Haitians' exactions committed specially regarding your statement :
"the throwing of babies in the air and spearing them with spears as they fell as well as bathing in the milk meant for these babies. Atrocities which have withstood the test of time and remain inbedded in the Dominican psyche"
It looks like Las Casas' description of the spanish exactions against the Tainos.
I read Moya Pons (Manual de Historia Dominicana) , Jaime De Jesus Dominguez (Historia Dominicana) or Carlos esteban deive (Los Guerrilleros Negros ) ==> I could not find one example of these atrocities save during 1805 Dessalines' attack (which was TOTALLY wrong).
Please provide me a book reference. Many Thanks !
If you read "Los Guerrilleros Negros" by Carlos Esteban Deive (wrote from the spanish and santo domingo archives) , he says that Haitian occupation and even a Union with Haiti was welcomed by most of the Dominicans. The CIBAO region wanted that union with Haiti too.
In this same book he says that many africans slaves from spanish santo domingo fled to Haiti and many (MORE) africans slaves from french St Domingue fled to santo Domingo. Spanish officials welcomed them because it was a free source of labor and it was a way to annoy their French ricals who "stole" the eastern part of the island from them.
Many of these slaves from haiti were freed by the spaniards and live in a dedicated place. Many French semi-slaves ( Indentured servants) also fled to the spanish side.
The first slave rebellion in Haiti (1691) was led by whites(indentured servants) and african slaves.
I really suspect that Dessaline soldiers atrocities in 1805 were transferred to the 22 years occupation of the DR
Haitians freed the slaves in Santo Domingo (Blacks and Mulattoes...)
Haitians gave them the lands of the old slave masters
Haitians closed the university because it was only open to the white spanish elite and they persecuted the Church which supported for slavery
So all the rich spanish fled to PR, CUBA where slavery was not abolished
Now I may suspect than forced labor was also part of the occupation (like in haiti) in order to pay back the vampires who oppressed them from 1697 to 1804.
The slave system in the DR was mild ( not quite mild if you read Deive's book...) but the slaves wanted also their liberty. This is why when the Haitian revolution started in 1791, many revolts occured in Santo Domingo, like Boca Nigua (sugar mill).
During Haitian revolution many slave revolts occured also in Puero Rico (see Guillermo Baralt)
Sugar was produced mainly in Cuba (replaced haiti as the 1st world sugar producer after Haitian revolution) , this is why Cubans look like Haitians ( Afro-cubans) and yet in the 18th century there was more africans in PR than Santo Domingo.
When PR abolished slavery in 1873 the MAJORITY of the slaves were mulattoes , so spanish didn't care about their children slaves...
The slave system was not the same in the DR , because spanish went to the mainland (mexico) or nearby islands (PR and Cuba), this is why the sugar plantations disappeared and the Hateros grew up.
I think the more twisted thing is that the spanish elite put in Domincans head that they respected more the Indians ( Indios/ Tainos / Arawaks etc) than Africans when it's absolutely false...
In the first Trapiches (sugar mills) of Santo Domingo Tainos and Africans worked together on the slaves plantations and the overseers and sugar technicians were africans (see William D Phillips). Spanish called the Tainos (gente sin razon) and killed for pleasure or only to feed their hungry dogs ( see Las Casas). This is why Tainos and Africans raised together many times in Santo Domingo , Cuba (see Fernando Ortiz "Negros Brujos") , PR ( Diaz Soler) to chase their oppressors
In Mexico, Gonzalo Aguirre Beltran says the same : Africans were overseers and both indians and africans worked on the plantations. Africans mixed so much with Indians than they fordid such unions ( like in santo domingo in early 16th century)
It was a divide and rule strategy.
The most important thing is that there was black spanish free conquistadores like Pedro Mexia who married a taino caciqua in PR ( in actual place called Loiza) or Juan Garrido who was from the Congo/ Angola region.
Juan Valiente was also a black encomendero and had been provided with INDIAN slaves.
You had Sebastian Toral in Mexico or Juan Bardales in Honduras and it's highly possible that some of them (blacks/ mulattoes) unfortunately participated to the spanish genocide against the indios. As some Indians allies of the spanish participated to the indian genocide...
There was black and mulattoes conquitasdores from spain, west africa and north africa.
You can read Matthew Restall " Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest"
My conclusion is that Spanish never respected africans or indians but they despised even more the native indians whom they regarded as subhumans, chattel slaves or food for their war dogs...
You can find the references in Carlos Esteban Deive's book, " Los Guerrilleros Negros". Cibao officials wanted a union with Haiti and Dessalines. I'll quote the author if I have some time.
And the slaves in the DR wanted also a union with Haiti in order to be freed.
Plus the CIBAO (as nowadays) is more a black/mulatto region than a European looking region ( I don't know who spread this myth...)
Unfortunately it seems that your officials let them through. I was in la Romana last year and I spoke with a spanish excutive of a sugar company based in that area (central romana ltd). He told me that almost 95 % of the employees are Haitians and live their with their families.
http://www.centralromana.com.do/index.php
He also says that their children are provided free school classes (and furnitures) and if they didn't work at school their place would be on the sugar fields...He told me that the top officials are partners with the presidency (meetings with LF and/or his closed men) ....
Meaning that they have "agreements" between them...
When the corruption will cease ( border and government officials who provide haitian labor to the top dominican or foreign companies), illegal Haitian immigration will be highly reduced.
http://www.centralromana.com.do/hist_galfotos.php
Meaning that this company is one of the biigest employer of illegal haitians but will not get any trouble from DR Gov and/or Officials...
hi howare you?
are you agree with Nehesy?
I think he gives you a lot of arguments with a lot of books.
I think a lot of stories you know are wrong. It's like i told you the great lies of spanish to divise this island. i agree you canNOT have all haitian illegal, but
hatred between the two peoples should not take place.
They lied to you in order to make you feel more Spanish than haitian lol. master of the slave have Always divised the people who don't have shared their values. A lot of dominican are blinded by these lies historical.
It's not good to the peace of those two countries. It's dangerous for dominican people to cultive the hatred
The president came to discuss the problem at Malpass"__Things have changed__Usually Haitian presidents are vulgar cowards who are scared to discuss any concerns with their Dominicans counterparts
Yes as soon the things will changed i hope with MARTELLY. Because he don't want only rep dr have the tourist because in haiti we have a lot of beautiful place, with a lot of monuments. We have the original monuments in the area. Our people are very nice. And he tell with your president to do all for protect haitian in your country. And i think it's time to close the lies story you have in your country. But to do that we must to open our door to the good dominicans. not the dominicans who have a closed brain can stay at home.
Why Dominicans like you say they are Haitians?
by doing that you act as satan was doing with the snake turning into fruit. In order to mislead the Dominicans like them.
I do not insult you I'm just saying that you are not Haitian.
Let me provide you some heads up on subjects of your interest. First of all, the historical quotations you cited are convenient to your cause, but not regarded as accurate by real historians. The sources
are generic and the veracity is questionable, and much better historical representations and accounts are found in earlier books, some by French authors, including a day by day diary of a ex-Haitian officer that defected out of disgust for the massacres being committed by Haitians. You can also read in Spanish: Gaspar de Arredondo y Pichardo,- Memoria de mi salida de la isla de Santo Domingo el 28 de abril de 1805.
Second the present owners of the central Romana corporation are the Cuban American family exiled from Cuba after the Castro take over, named Fanjul, (two brothers) and reside in Palm Beach and La Romana, and they are both dual citizens, holding Dominican nationality.
They bought Central Romana from Gulf and Western Americas on a fire sale with very advantageous financial arrangements, after Charles Bludhorn died prematurely, (G & W had purchased the sugar plantation and lands from South Puerto Rico sugar company before that).
What you said about the owners being in bed with all governments is true, but what is misleading is the amount of Haitians that they employ, which is miniscule 5% compared to the amount of other Haitians living and working legally and illegally in DR.
BTW: The Central Romana corporation is run very much like a 1950's Cuban plantation, and true the Haitians are paid slightly above official minimal wages for their labor, but they also are free to not work there or move on to other gainful occupations, so it is a matter of choice. And to my understanding they have many perks and benefits that they enjoy.
There is nothing worse than an superficial magazine "historian" that twists historical facts to fit his own private agenda
"Dread you obviously answered your own question. Yes the atrocities committed by the Haitian invaders to our country were part of our upbringing part of our history. Many Dominican families sufferred and fought against them and the stories were handed down like an inheritance. Part of my ancestors fought in the war of independence as well as the wars of 1848, 1852, 1856. These historical events are imbedded in the following generations just as any other nation in the world. I do not espouse the hatred that comes with it though many people do."
Good that you point out to dready several important reasons for why we Dominicans have the attitude towards our neighbors to the west. I've often told Dready that he needs to read a good historical account of the island so that his understanding of this troubled relationship gains firmer grounds from which to voice his opinions.
For sure no other nation in our Western Hemisphere has had to endure this
Good that you point out to dready several important reasons for why we Dominicans have the attitude towards our neighbors to the west. I've often told Dready that he needs to read a good historical account of the island so that his understanding of this troubled relationship gains firmer grounds from which to voice his opinions.
i am fully aware of the historical issues at play here. i am simply stating that some 16 year old guy has no reason to hate a Haitian because of something that happened in 1844. the USA bombed the heck out of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2, and i have no evidence to suggests that Japanese have a mortal hatred of Americans 70 years later.
You are the virus of your country. your heart is full of hatred. go to sleep. YOU MUST stop THE cultUREe OF hatred. Haiti is not the problem of DR. GO to see your President is you are not happy. Or come to live in DR instead to drooling your hatred. your government are very corrupt. Tell your president what he does with the 4 billions That tourists bring?
sure is not the haitian who take it! the unbalance of trade with haitian give 900 000 000 in your country. WITHOUT the workers haitians, your country is finish, the agriculture in dr is alive thanks to haitian worker, the same in the job of build and the hotel.
TELL ABOUT ALSO THE GOOD THINGS
" You can also read in Spanish: Gaspar de Arredondo y Pichardo,- Memoria de mi salida de la isla de Santo Domingo el 28 de abril de 1805"
You confirmed what I said. You guys can provide me ONE author who describes the so-called Haitian atrocities from 1822-1844. I never denied Dessalines' crimes in 1805 (let's note that he wanted to kick out the French from the spanish side, and unfortunately some dominicans fought for the French, this is the real causes of his attack)
Frank Moya Pons one of the top five dominican historians NEVER mentioned these events in his "Manual De Historia Dominicana", save the Dessalines havoc in 1805...And the Haitian occupation is detailed fairly in his book. I got this book during my last trip in the DR (from Puerto Rico) and bought it in Rodali's library in Puerto Plata.
So my conclusion is that the so called Haitian atrocities from 1822 to 1844 is a myth/propaganda in order to cause hatred between Dominicans and Haitians,
You said "First of all, the historical quotations you cited are convenient to your cause, but not regarded as accurate by real historians"
First I don't have any cause : I'm not Dominican nor Haitian...
With this statement which would be marked by a zero by any univeristy teacher( no sources, no argumentation, no quotes of real historians). You haven't study this part of history (it's obvious..) . So i'm giving you a little Bibliography :
1. Spanish genocides of the Tainos : primary sources
- Fray Bartholomé de las Casas : "Historia de La Indias" ( 3 volumes)
- Fray Bartholomé de las Casas : "A short Account of the Destruction of the Indies"
- Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdés : "La General y natural historia de las Indias"
- Antonio de Herrera y Tordesillas : " Historia general de los hechos de los Castellanos en las islas y tierra firme del Mar Oceano "
All I said about their mischieves was said by Spanish historians and witnesses..
- Carlos Esteban Deive : "La Española y la Esclavitud del Indio"
- Jaime de Jesus Dominguez : " Historia Dominicana" ( National prize in the DR,1999)
3. Spanish Genocide : Cuban Historians
- José Antonio Saco : "Historia de la esclavitud de los indios en el nuevo mundo seguida de la Historia de los repartimientos y encomiendas"
4.Spanish Genocide : French Accounts
- Moreau de Saint Mery
- Père Jean Baptiste Du Tertre
- Alexandre Oexmelin : Oexmelin explains why the Bucaneers found so much dogs in the Island ( imported by the spaniards to hunt down the Tainos)
Frank Moya Pons: Manual de Historia Dominicana
Jaime de Jesus Dominguez : Historia Dominicana
And CIBAO wanted that union ( at that time was lead by a mulatto an ex-slave) :
- Carlos esteban deive " Los Guerrilleros Negros"
- William D Philips : "Slavery from Roman Times to the Early Transatlantic Trade " ==> Check the part about slavery in Santo Domingo
- Mirta J Nieves Mejias (PR) : "Por La Encendida Calle Antillana"
- Gonzalo Aguirre Beltran (Mexico) : "Cuijla : Esbozo etnografico de un pueblo Negro"
- José Antonio Saco ( Cuba) : "Historia de la esclavitud de los indios en el nuevo mundo seguida de la Historia de los repartimientos y encomiendas"
7. There was black and Mulattoes conquistadores : You can see a picture of Juan Garrido in old san juan museum ( Museo de nuestra raiz africana) and also that most of the black slaves were imported from Santo Domingo to PR in the 16th century
- Père Jean Baptiste du Tertre
- Luiz Diaz Soler
- José Antonio Saco
- Matthew Restall
- Luiz Diaz Soler ( Puerto Rican) : Historia de la esclavitud del Negro en Puerto rico
- José Antonio Saco (Cuban): Historia de la esclavitud de la Raza Africana en el Nuevo Mundo
- Fernando Ortiz ( Cuban) : Los Negros Brujos
- Carlos Esteban Deive (Dominican) : Los Guerrilleros Negros
- Jack D Forbes : Africans and Native Americans
- Jalil Sued badillo (PR) : Puerto Rico Negro
- Celsa Albert Batista : (DR) Mujer Y Esclavitud en Santo Domingo
- Orlando Paterson : Slavery and Social Death
As you can see I did my research and you obviously haven't done yours..Genoroso please be generous to yourself and read some books... Cause ignorance ( somebody said that somebody said that Haitians from 1822 to 1844...) is the root of all evils (racism, hatred , murders etc). My view is only the synthesis of top Historian scholars ...
Los Gueriilleros Negros : Carlos esteban Deive
Quisqueya la bella : Alan Cambeira
Moreau de St Mery
Gabriel Debien
In santo domingo the place called San Lorenzo de Los Minas welcomed the slaves from Haiti
and here is a confimation
http://www.redpodercomunitario.or....osMina/SanLorenzoLosMinaVilla.htm
Genoroso , history is a SCIENCE you can't learn it in Magazine , as you obviously do...LOL