Written by: RoyStone, 19 Jan 2012 6:46 AM
From: Australia
8-hour day is a great improvement, however will it mean doubling class sizes? They cannot double the number of teachers and classrooms overnight. However it is a move in the right direction. I hope the parents don't expect the school to now provide their kids with 2 meals per school-day as well.
From: United States
great point, Roy. since the schools operate on double shifts, simple math means that if this is to be made universal, it will require a doubling of the physical assets, and also the teaching staff. that also means a substantial additional allocation to the education budget.
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 6:57 AM
From: United States, NYC
And if they should do so? Why should THAT meal policy be detrimental, assuming its good quality food, to students and their learning? studies have clearly demonstrated that good nutrition is crucial for learning. DR can do both, provide an 8 hour school day for more of its children AND provide food, breakfast, lunch and even a small afternoon snack-a piece of fruit!
From: Dominican Republic, vieja Santo Domingo
The answer is very simple ,,,there are not enough classrooms or decent teachers and there has to be a double shift at present ..I imagine this good idea cann only be implemented in a few schools,,In those where I have been teaching ,,,there is not enough space for the students in the morning ...without even thinking about the afternoon ones//Maybe this will lead to more classrooms ...
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 7:03 AM
From: United States, NYC
Written by: dreadlocks, 19 Jan 2012 6:55 AM
From: United States
great point, Roy. since the schools operate on double shifts, simple math means that if this is to be made universal, it will require a doubling of the physical assets, and also the teaching staff. that also means a substantial additional allocation to the education budget."
Top of the morning to ya Dready. Good to hear from you so early!
The goal must be universal coverage and this will take some time but must be provided. Perhaps before 2020 all Dominican children will have an 8 hour day with meals and extracurricular activities. But it will surely take more than 2.3% of GDP to get there! Perhaps DR will follow Jamaica and spend, o say 6 or even 7% of its GDP someday soon so that all our children will have the modern access to educational foundations needed to compete in the modern world.
Written by: RoyStone, 19 Jan 2012 7:34 AM
From: Australia
The government has a mandate to provide universal education, not to feed, clothe and house the children as well. Sure undernourished kids don't learn so well. They don't learn so well if they don't sleep properly either, or have low self esteem. So the government should provide beds and the latest fashion items?
Take the responsibility away from parents and you also take away their authority. A government that provides everything can also take everything away.
The real problem is not so much lack of government expenditure but people having kids they can't afford, and expecting Jesus, the banca and the government to provide for them.
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 8:02 AM
From: United States, NYC
"The real problem is not so much lack of government expenditure but people having kids they can't afford, and expecting Jesus, the banca and the government to provide for them." -Roy
Roy,
Only when parents SEE the payoff to having their children attend school will they take the gambit in earnest.
But for that mental self-interest leap process to gain credibility, the central government, elected officials, the leaders of society, must structure the society to facilitate this transition from one that (parents) see children as a burden needing a quick pay-off to help in daily maintenance, to one where a longer time horizon takes precedence. At the middle class and upper class levels this belief in the positive gains to a well structured educational experienced is largely ingrained; but at the lower levels its acceptance is far from secured as daily necessities imperil the lives of many children often used as sex objects for men and even some women of demented tastes.
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 8:04 AM
From: United States, NYC
Other societies have taken the steps to invest in their children as a collective expression of the values of the society. In DRs case, this is sadly taking place, in a universal sense, only in this modern era! It was not like this EVER in our nation's history. That is what many people fail to understand: DR has never had a truly national commitment to stamp out illiteracy and establish universal education throughout the nation. NEVER.
But as we all should agree, this commitment to Universal coverage will take a whole lot more than 2.3% of GDP. Perhaps a long term commitment in the range of 6-7% of GDP will be necessary to correct the vast underfunding in education throughout our history.
And remember that the pay-offs for DR in a better educated society ARE VAST improvements in all the matrices that make for a good society: low crime levels, lower corruption, higher cultural creativity, more investments, higher standards of living for all sectors of society.
Written by: danny00, 19 Jan 2012 8:21 AM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
israel is one very small country with only 7 million people, they the israeli's spend more of their gdp then any other nation in the world on education.
world leaders in technology they are.
who knows in 20 or so years if given a good education for the young just maybe their is another steve jobs, {apple computer} or bill gates [microsoft}waiting to be discovered in the dr.
Written by: RonEvane, 19 Jan 2012 9:27 AM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
This is also very good for parents.. ...Knowing the children are in a good place, with supervision and fed properly, thy'll now be free to spend more time educating and/ or seeking ways to empower themselves.
Nutritious food is almost as important for learning, as are good teachers. When children are taught well and nurtured, they will always want to stay in school and continue with their education.
I sure hope this is a harbinger of things to come. If our next government cares enough, they'll find ways to provide for our children and our future. It's our only way out of poverty and misery. Our only way to progress and prosperity.
From: United States
let me try this once more , even though i know it will bear no fruit. Atabey says
Perhaps a long term commitment in the range of 6-7% of GDP
and just what does that translate to, in expenditure per student? how do you know it will be enough?are you from the school that says anything is better than nothing? if the expenditure today is x, then with the additional amount, it will be, for example, y. what is figure represented by y-x, and what can it realistically do, in the scheme of things? easy math for a guy with a masters degree, i should think.
From: United States
Written by: danny00, 19 Jan 2012 8:21 AM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
israel is one very small country with only 7 million people, they the israeli's spend more of their gdp then any other nation in the world on education.
where did you read that?
From: United States
Danny, before you post remarks on the site, you should do some research, first. that way, you do not end up looking like some other guys here, who rattle on, without facts. Israel ranks number 17 in the world, behind some caribbean countries, at 7.5%. Cuba is in the 18% range. really easy to research. Google works wonders.
Written by: josean, 19 Jan 2012 10:25 AM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
We are making progress!
After 122 years have passed since Edison perfected the light bulb and almost a hundred years after Ernest Rutherford split the atom, the PURPLE ONES have discovered that the 8 hour school day is beneficial to educational achievement!
What modern geniuses; Einstein had nothing on Lie-onel!
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
What idiots we have governing us!
From: United States
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
and, in 100 years, they might stumble upon the little known fact that the earth is round.
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 11:33 AM
From: United States, NYC
Dready, I see you are back to par, but a boggy awaits on the bunker.
While you're correct about the non-sense peddled by DannyNut, there are still issues with your refusal to acknowledge the obvious: In order for DR to realize a modern, educated citizenry it will take far more expenditures in ALL FACETS related to education. Buildings, teachers, materials, etc. Basically DR has been running to stay, at best, even with growing demand, and has not yet realized sharp decreases in especially the adult illiterate cohort long since out of their normal school cycle, but still within their productive life years.
Ideally DR needs to both attack the K-12 education with universal coverage And provide some means of correcting for past failure in its adult population. 2.3% of GDP does not get us there. Thus a commitment in the 6-7% range is a reasonable range considering that other similarly compared nations, like Costa Rica and Jamaica have done so in their efforts
Written by: THINK, 19 Jan 2012 11:38 AM
From: United States, SDQ -- Mia --NY
Quantity is good, but "QUALITY" is much more important......
Let's see ....
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 11:41 AM
From: United States, NYC
to dislodge this menace to productive existence.
Quality is key, THINK, and NOBODY has claimed otherwise. The additional funds MUST BE used in clear and transparent management. But additional expenditures are without question needed to fully achieve universality and meet the demands of a still growing population of Dominican students.
Dready's inability to see this obvious point is laughable, at best, and a cruel ploy by him to consistently argue in his obstinate manner.
From: United States
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 11:33 AM
From: United States
Dready, I see you are back to par, but a boggy awaits on the bunker.
yes, a boggy.
once more, i see where you have resorted to blather, rather than answer simple questions, like HOW MUCH DOES YOUR FIGURE REPRESENT AS A PER CAPITA EXPENDITURE. no amount of foolish remarks, about boggies, can camouflage the fact that you are just rambling, incoherently, without idea of structure. again, i lower myself by engaging you.
From: United States
Written by: THINK, 19 Jan 2012 11:38 AM
From: United States, SDQ -- Mia --NY
Quantity is good, but "QUALITY" is much more important......
Let's see ....
THINK, Atabey has not explained how additional allocations from the budget will uplift the QUALITY of education. we all know that it will buy more capital assets, and pay for more current expenditures. he does not explain how it will affect the storehouse of existing knowledge, which teachers are required to impart, and how it will affect the receptiveness of school age children to educational intitatives. so, he will ramble on , about boggies, whatever they may be.
From: Dominican Republic, I dislike all politicians and their afiliated parties... "I simply say it AS IT IS!!"
Sure Josean, the white ones did even better in the past, right?
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 11:59 AM
From: United States, NYC
Watch the sand trap Dready!
Dready,
If you want to attack educational deficiencies in a nation you have to spend to correct the problem.
No way out of that reality. BTW, why has Jamaica spent 5-7% of GDP in education? And Costa Rica, too?
Are these two nations stupid to dedicate these funds for their people?
As another poster says: THINK
Written by: RonEvane, 19 Jan 2012 3:38 PM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
Money can buy anything, including a better education.
Question is, in today's economy, where do you find it?
Cut military expenditure by half.
Cut the senate and house of deputies by half.
Establish a lottery to ,(exclusively), benefit education.
Tax all remittances $1 dollar for every $100.00 sent.
Tax tobacco and alcohol 10% higher than what it is.
Legalize Marijuana and Cocaine and tax accordingly.
Build attractive, secure, and well staffed brothels and impose a 10% tax.
This will generate, initially, at least, half a billion dollars per year.
This will more than enough, take care of this problem...no fuss, no muss.
Written by: RoyStone, 19 Jan 2012 3:57 PM
From: Australia
Ron
Agree will all the above except
"Legalize Marijuana and Cocaine and tax accordingly."
Alcohol and tobacco are legal and taxed in most countries, but still cause massive problems. Adding Marijuana and Cocaine will only make it worse. The revenue collected in tax, no-matter what the rate is, will be miniscule compared to the real cost, just as it is with alcohol and tobacco. Also if it does not work, legalization is irreversible. Look what happened in USA during the Prohibition Era.
There are already enough (or too many) legal drugs available, aren't there?
When governments impose a tax supposedly to reduce consumption, they become addicted to the revenue generated themselves, and lose sight of the original objective.
Written by: Atabey, 19 Jan 2012 4:11 PM
From: United States, NYC
RonEvane,
"Cut military expenditure by half.
Cut the senate and house of deputies by half.
Establish a lottery to ,(exclusively), benefit education.
Tax all remittances $1 dollar for every $100.00 sent.
Tax tobacco and alcohol 10% higher than what it is.
Legalize Marijuana and Cocaine and tax accordingly.
Build attractive, secure, and well staffed brothels and impose a 10% tax."
You're on the right track. Unlike some other folks who just want to wallow in their eternal negativity, you seek creative ways toward providing resources for the huge outlays needed to correct the educational deficit in DR.
The Marijuana and Cocaine tax will be most difficult because of both internal(Church/ conservative opposition) and external (USA & probably EU) opposition. I'm not opposed on moral grounds but quality issues need to be enforced and strong care taken to prevent our youth from becoming consumers before they have a chance to use their brains. Start with MJane first
Written by: RonEvane, 19 Jan 2012 5:01 PM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
{"Alcohol and tobacco are legal and taxed in most countries, but still cause massive problems. Adding Marijuana and Cocaine will only make it worse."}
{"The Marijuana and Cocaine tax will be most difficult because of both internal(Church/ conservative opposition) and external (USA & probably EU) opposition."}
Totally agree with both your statements.
The big problem with unregulated legal drugs is the absence of moneys to do just that. Any child bearing the correct amount, will be sold anything and everything--including illegal drugs--! It is also no secret, that Coke and MJ are sold in the open market sanctioned by some military and government officials. The number keeps growing. Matters not how much force is put into curtailing these drugs, it'll always find its' way around. There's no winning the war on drugs!
Written by: RonEvane, 19 Jan 2012 5:21 PM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
The number one cause of criminal activity, incarceration of many a youth, murder and other acts of violence is undoubtedly due to the trafficking of illegal drugs...When decriminalisation is enacted, the criminal elements are exorcised from the equation... transactions will become safe and controlled.
Needles to say, our nation will become a heaven for sexual tourism, pot heads and coke fiends..Absolutely!
But let's look at the benefits: A huge windfall. Money galore, that'll take care of all our social ills, including those that may become addicted to these drugs. Criminal activity will plummet, (I'm not being naive, here). The nation will prosper as never before!
Las Vegas, Nev. is called "sin city"; DR will become "Devil's island"!!
Of course, the US and EU and the church will become very upset and who knows how they'll react. But what can they do?...We're a free and sovereign nation, free to rule ourselves as we darn please!
From: United States, words of wisdom from the nutcracker
Its about time , the dominican republic joins the 21 th century , how can they actually compete with other nation when you educational system , cant even provided the necessary hours to teach a child how to learn? 4 to 5 hour schooling was a joke , is it any wonder why dominicans got the nickname dumbminicans.
Written by: danny00, 21 Jan 2012 12:24 PM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
Written by: dreadlocks, 19 Jan 2012 10:16 AM
From: United States
Danny, before you post remarks on the site, you should do some research, first. that way, you do not end up looking like some other guys here, who rattle on, without facts. Israel ranks number 17 in the world, behind some caribbean countries, at 7.5%. Cuba is in the 18% range. really easy to research. Google works wonders.
RATTLE ON? ME? MY POINT WAS THAT HOW COME ISRAEL WITH ONLY 7 MILLION PEOPLE AND ONE VERY SMALL PIECE OF LAND THEY CALL A COUNTRY IS EVEN RANKED?
AND THE DR WITH ALL THEIR SOB STORIES TO CRY ABOUT ARE GOING NO WHERE IN THIS WORLD.
ISRAEL HAS OVER 200 ATOMIC WEAPONS AND I BELIEVE 7-8 ATOMIC BOMBS. OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE CARIBBEAN ARE RAKED HIGHER THEN ISRAEL? MAYBE IN THE DRUG SELLING BUSINESS NOT IN THE TECH BUSINESS CUBA?/ U MUST BE KIDDING ME AND OTHERS. LIKE THEIR BULL THEY HAVE THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE WORLD BULLSHIT I SAY.
From: United States, words of wisdom from the nutcracker
RATTLE ON? ME? MY POINT WAS THAT HOW COME ISRAEL WITH ONLY 7 MILLION PEOPLE AND ONE VERY SMALL PIECE OF LAND THEY CALL A COUNTRY IS EVEN RANKED?
AND THE DR WITH ALL THEIR SOB STORIES TO CRY ABOUT ARE GOING NO WHERE IN THIS WORLD.
ISRAEL HAS OVER 200 ATOMIC WEAPONS AND I BELIEVE 7-8 ATOMIC BOMBS. OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE CARIBBEAN ARE RAKED HIGHER THEN ISRAEL? MAYBE IN THE DRUG SELLING BUSINESS NOT IN THE TECH BUSINESS CUBA?/ U MUST BE KIDDING ME AND OTHERS. LIKE THEIR BULL THEY HAVE THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE WORLD BULLSHIT I SAY.
Danny00 dont forget israel has all the backing of all the top nations in the world , not to mention the fact that there is a hidden agenda that israel gets all the accommodations whenever they ask for something . zionist jews are some of the worst despicable people ever created , they are responsible for all the mass killings of palestinians , and destructions of palestinian homes
Written by: josean, 21 Jan 2012 9:20 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
Time for a little Windex to clean up the Purple Fog:
We are making progress!
After 122 years have passed since Edison perfected the light bulb and almost a hundred years after Ernest Rutherford split the atom, the PURPLE ONES have discovered that the 8 hour school day is beneficial to educational achievement!
What modern geniuses; Einstein had nothing on Lie-onel!
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
What idiots we have governing us!
From: United States
danny, are you making a point? or, better yet, are you trying to make one?
From: United States
Dready,
If you want to attack educational deficiencies in a nation you have to spend to correct the problem.
does this mean that we might soon see the figure i asked you for?
Written by: Atabey, 22 Jan 2012 11:22 AM
From: United States, NYC
As I've stated on numerous occasions:
How much funding goes to school construction, teacher salaries, administrators, materials, etc., IS beyond the expertise of anyone here at DT to pinpoint. But what is truly NOT beyond reasonable minded people to acknowledge is the overall NECESSITY of increasing spending over time to arrive at a truly UNIVERSAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATIONAL COVERAGE, K-12, in DR.
Your figure IS irrelevant to this discussion Dready. The salient point, the crux of the matter, is that moving forward, DR WILL HAVE to spend more funds, thus a higher contribution of her GDP, to arrive at and sustain a UNIVERSAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATIONAL COVERAGE, K-12.
Now that's not too hard to comprehend. Heck it's worked in Jamaica, Costa Rica and EVERYWHERE else! 2.3% of GDP will NEVER achieve UNIVERSAL EDUCATIONAL COVERAGE in any developing nation.
From: United States
it is not too hard to comprehend that i need the figure.
Written by: RoyStone, 22 Jan 2012 12:43 PM
From: Australia
Dready,
I'm not an economist or financial expert, but my guess is, it would take far more than 4% GDP to bring existing schools, teachers and materials up to standard, then double them to allow an 8-hour teaching day as opposed to the current 4.
My suggestion is to scrap the conventional schooling system altogether, and jump to an internet-based system, with a computer and webcam in every home. These computers would need to be especially made to ensure they can only be used for education, not games, chat, video, etc., and the internet only access to the specific education sites.
Please consider.
From: United States
My suggestion is to scrap the conventional schooling system altogether
a study, as far back as 1999, shopwed that it it would cost 6.50 US, per student, per year, to put school children on computers. that was when computers were relatively expensive. think about all the rebuilts, the reconditioned computers, and the kits, and that figure will be somewhere around 5 dollars, per year, per student. as to scrapping the system...there is no alternative but to rebuild the model, from the ground up. no band aids. complete makeover. in Latin America, only about 60% of the teachers´time is spent on teaching. up to 30% is spent on enforcing discipline. that is a function of culture, which money cannot fix. Asians are respectful of authority, and age, and their peers, on a general basis. they do not disrupt the class, because of respect for the teacher, and the class, in general. you cannot change that with money.
Written by: josean, 22 Jan 2012 12:55 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
From: United States
the immediate environment has much to do with learning. noisy vicinities retard human cognitive processes. my buddy spent a week here , at the beginning of December. he lives in Hong Kong .he could not comprehend how the place was so noisy. motorcycles with no mufflers. cars, the same. aircraft level stereo systems, both fixed, and mobile. people shouting, at the top of their lungs, even though the listener is a foot away. car horns beeping, incessantly. a billion stray dogs, barking. there is a large body of literature which investigates the adverse effects of noise on the classroom environment, and student performance. maybe Atabey would like to give us a percentage coefficient of how much is needed for noise abatement.
From: United States
Written by: josean, 22 Jan 2012 12:55 PM
From: United States
"How much funding goes to school construction, teacher salaries, administrators, materials, etc., IS beyond the expertise of anyone here at DT to pinpoint.
only in the mind of a scholar, such as Atabey, is reading already compiled information¨beyond expertise¨.
Written by: Atabey, 22 Jan 2012 1:49 PM
From: United States, NYC
So why don't you elaborate Dready. Please tell us how much should go towards school construction, how much towards teacher training, how much towards educational materials, and so on.
DT awaits. Show us Dominicans how much expertise you have on this budgetary breakdown.
At least I'm honest and state what's VERY OBVIOUS: In order to modernize the system of education in DR, more than 2.3% of GDP MUST be allocated.
From: United States
that is not the point of the question, in case you think that you have just accomplished a preemptive strike. i know that the next nonsense we will see is some idiocy from you about having given a pela to the Jamaiquino. just give me the figure, and you will see where this is headed. you might actually learn something. secondly, it would be real nice if you desisted from using the word HONEST, when referring to yourself
Written by: Atabey, 22 Jan 2012 1:55 PM
From: United States, NYC
I certainly wouldn't contemplate using the term with regards to your take on the issue, dready.
From: United States
your take is to avoid the request, at all costs. i wonder why?
Written by: josean, 22 Jan 2012 2:18 PM
From: United States, Dedicating 4 more years to fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia
"DT awaits."
I must have missed the memo which pronounced Atabey as the official spokesperson for DT!
Could anyone please post a copy?
Written by: RonEvane, 22 Jan 2012 6:16 PM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
Roy says: [" I hope the parents don't expect the school to now provide their kids with 2 meals per school-day as well."]
I wonder why you think this is a bad idea?
----------------
Dread says: ["since the schools operate on double shifts, simple math means that if this is to be made universal, it will require a doubling of the physical assets, and also the teaching staff. that also means a substantial additional allocation to the education budget."]
Exactly, sir. It takes money to make money. An effective educational program takes money, and money is akin to manure; the more you spread it around, the better things grow. ( Pull the weeds out, first !.).
----------------
Atabey says: ["assuming its good quality food, to students and their learning? studies have clearly demonstrated that good nutrition is crucial for learning."}
Absolutely, sir ! In order to develop ones' mind, and absorb knowledge; brain and body need to be properly nourished.
Written by: RoyStone, 22 Jan 2012 6:51 PM
From: Australia
Ron,
No, no, fu(king no!
It is hard enough to get sufficient funding to educate the kids, which is the government's responsibility, let alone to feed them which is not their responsibility. Sure you need good nutrition to learn. You also need a good night's sleep. Is it then the government's responsibility to provide housing? Maybe the latest iPhone too, since high self-esteem is also important for learning?
When you relinquish parental responsibility to government, you also lose authority. When governments control fertility, then the kids welfare is their responsibility, not before.
Written by: RoyStone, 22 Jan 2012 7:25 PM
From: Australia
I find it harder to read posts that have been greyed-out, so here is Josean's again. If you disagree with a post, then make a post yourself explaining why. If you can't articulate why, then just leave it be, okay?
Having said that, I am surprised all the teachers are in favor of the 8-hour day, since I would have thought at least the math teachers would have figured out that it will mean their class sizes will double with no more teachers.
josean, 19 Jan 2012 10:25 AM
From: United States
We are making progress!
After 122 years have passed since Edison perfected the light bulb and almost a hundred years after Ernest Rutherford split the atom, the PURPLE ONES have discovered that the 8 hour school day is beneficial to educational achievement!
What modern geniuses; Einstein had nothing on Lie-onel!
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
What idiots we have governing us!
Written by: RonEvane, 23 Jan 2012 2:10 AM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
"No, no, fu(king no!
It is hard enough to get sufficient funding to educate the kids, which are the government's responsibility, let alone to feed them which are not their responsibility."
Au contraire, Mon ami….It is exclusively the responsibility and ultimate goal of governments to educate, house, clothe and feed its’ people!!...And I’m not talking Socialism or a welfare state, here; I’m saying leaders have a mandate to grow a nation’s economy by investing in ways that will, above all, benefit the economy and as consequence, bring about the means by which all this can be had.
I’m saying the ONLY way to ever becoming prosperous and self-reliant is to spend greatly and seriously, in nurturing our children.
Once we “grow” our next generation of capable individuals, the money spent, will seem insignificant compared to the benefits it’ll reap. Any and all business ventures, in order to become successful and thrive, must be laden with sweat and lots of sacrifices. No shit.
Written by: RoyStone, 23 Jan 2012 2:42 AM
From: Australia
Ron,
"laden with sweat and lots of sacrifices" are you kidding? We are taking about one of the laziest and most selfish populations on the planet.
In a democracy, a government does not have a mandate to do what is right, sensible, economically viable, whatever. It only has a right to do what the electorate vote for. Clearly education in not a priority for most Dominican voters. If a government can't convince the electorate otherwise, (and why would they) then things stay as they are. Sometimes things have to get worse before they will improve. When a population deludes itself into believing they already have the best county in the world, what is there to change? The huge numbers at these 4% demonstrations are conspicuous by their absence. I know, I've been to them.
Written by: RonEvane, 23 Jan 2012 6:12 AM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
"" are you kidding? We are taking about one of the laziest and most selfish populations on the planet. ""
----------------
Roy, you keep hammering on the same nail... As per your interpretation: Dominicans are lazy, deluded, selfish, whatever. Your mind is set on what IT IS, not on what it COULD be.
If you stop to think and look around a little, ---no, not around your neighborhood--- you may see a hint of what our DR is, and the potential it has, for a much better future.
What we need most is a catalyst to resolve the educational impasse and I think Medina is it. I got a chance to see him talk on TV the other day, and was impressed by how he felt on the dire state of education in our country. I think he honestly, "gets" the picture. We may be much closer to a real shot at a much improved school system. The nation-wide proposed, eight- hour school day, gives me much to hope for.
From: United States
From: United States
"DT awaits."
I must have missed the memo which pronounced Atabey as the official spokesperson for DT!
Could anyone please post a copy?
you don't need a copy. not to the thinking of Atabey.he says so, therefore it is so. sadly, he fails to realize that the great majority of readers here see him as moron.
Written by: RoyStone, 23 Jan 2012 1:11 PM
From: Australia
RonEvane, when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made.
I have yet to hear a politician in an electioneering speech say he's gonna line his pockets and doesn't give a fu(k about education.
Now pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
Ohh and I have seen more of the Dominican Republic than most Dominicans, not just my neighborhood. I think I was the only gringo in the basilica during Saturday's wankfest.
Written by: RonEvane, 23 Jan 2012 1:46 PM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
{"when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made."}
Mr. Roy. Once in a while, one comes across someone who actually means what he says. It's a rare bird, indeed, but there is such an animal.
You can't categorize everyone as belonging in the same collection or designation... Even in politics, one finds the occasional honest, progressive thinker who means well and wants to do good by everyone.
I wouldn't label anyone prior to discerning his true leanings. Not all lawyers are crooked and not all politicians, corrupt.
Written by: RoyStone, 23 Jan 2012 2:29 PM
From: Australia
Ron,
Yes I am sure many enter politics with high ideals - they're gonna fix the system. Then they find it's not so easy, and there are personal benefits to be had by not rocking the boat. Then instead of being part of the solution, they become part of the problem. Interesting that you group lawyers with politicians, since in Australia at least, many politicians start out as lawyers.
Written by: RonEvane, 23 Jan 2012 3:32 PM
From: United States, Gaithersburg, Maryland
Not everyone thinks the same or, for the sake of conformity, sacrifices his/her principles... True revolutionaries have one thing in common: They don't sell their soul....They stand firm for what they believe in, and act accordingly, regardless of whose boat is being rocked.
One thing you need to understand: There's imbecility in predicting that things can't be done or will never work . Those are the forecasts that'll make you look shortsighted and downright foolish!
Smaller
Bigger
Close Gallery
Facebook
Digg this
del.icio.us
Technorati
Yahoo
From: United States
great point, Roy. since the schools operate on double shifts, simple math means that if this is to be made universal, it will require a doubling of the physical assets, and also the teaching staff. that also means a substantial additional allocation to the education budget."
Top of the morning to ya Dready. Good to hear from you so early!
The goal must be universal coverage and this will take some time but must be provided. Perhaps before 2020 all Dominican children will have an 8 hour day with meals and extracurricular activities. But it will surely take more than 2.3% of GDP to get there! Perhaps DR will follow Jamaica and spend, o say 6 or even 7% of its GDP someday soon so that all our children will have the modern access to educational foundations needed to compete in the modern world.
Take the responsibility away from parents and you also take away their authority. A government that provides everything can also take everything away.
The real problem is not so much lack of government expenditure but people having kids they can't afford, and expecting Jesus, the banca and the government to provide for them.
Roy,
Only when parents SEE the payoff to having their children attend school will they take the gambit in earnest.
But for that mental self-interest leap process to gain credibility, the central government, elected officials, the leaders of society, must structure the society to facilitate this transition from one that (parents) see children as a burden needing a quick pay-off to help in daily maintenance, to one where a longer time horizon takes precedence. At the middle class and upper class levels this belief in the positive gains to a well structured educational experienced is largely ingrained; but at the lower levels its acceptance is far from secured as daily necessities imperil the lives of many children often used as sex objects for men and even some women of demented tastes.
But as we all should agree, this commitment to Universal coverage will take a whole lot more than 2.3% of GDP. Perhaps a long term commitment in the range of 6-7% of GDP will be necessary to correct the vast underfunding in education throughout our history.
And remember that the pay-offs for DR in a better educated society ARE VAST improvements in all the matrices that make for a good society: low crime levels, lower corruption, higher cultural creativity, more investments, higher standards of living for all sectors of society.
world leaders in technology they are.
who knows in 20 or so years if given a good education for the young just maybe their is another steve jobs, {apple computer} or bill gates [microsoft}waiting to be discovered in the dr.
This is also very good for parents.. ...Knowing the children are in a good place, with supervision and fed properly, thy'll now be free to spend more time educating and/ or seeking ways to empower themselves.
Nutritious food is almost as important for learning, as are good teachers. When children are taught well and nurtured, they will always want to stay in school and continue with their education.
I sure hope this is a harbinger of things to come. If our next government cares enough, they'll find ways to provide for our children and our future. It's our only way out of poverty and misery. Our only way to progress and prosperity.
Perhaps a long term commitment in the range of 6-7% of GDP
and just what does that translate to, in expenditure per student? how do you know it will be enough?are you from the school that says anything is better than nothing? if the expenditure today is x, then with the additional amount, it will be, for example, y. what is figure represented by y-x, and what can it realistically do, in the scheme of things? easy math for a guy with a masters degree, i should think.
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
israel is one very small country with only 7 million people, they the israeli's spend more of their gdp then any other nation in the world on education.
where did you read that?
We are making progress!
After 122 years have passed since Edison perfected the light bulb and almost a hundred years after Ernest Rutherford split the atom, the PURPLE ONES have discovered that the 8 hour school day is beneficial to educational achievement!
What modern geniuses; Einstein had nothing on Lie-onel!
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
What idiots we have governing us!
and, in 100 years, they might stumble upon the little known fact that the earth is round.
While you're correct about the non-sense peddled by DannyNut, there are still issues with your refusal to acknowledge the obvious: In order for DR to realize a modern, educated citizenry it will take far more expenditures in ALL FACETS related to education. Buildings, teachers, materials, etc. Basically DR has been running to stay, at best, even with growing demand, and has not yet realized sharp decreases in especially the adult illiterate cohort long since out of their normal school cycle, but still within their productive life years.
Ideally DR needs to both attack the K-12 education with universal coverage And provide some means of correcting for past failure in its adult population. 2.3% of GDP does not get us there. Thus a commitment in the 6-7% range is a reasonable range considering that other similarly compared nations, like Costa Rica and Jamaica have done so in their efforts
Quantity is good, but "QUALITY" is much more important......
Let's see ....
Quality is key, THINK, and NOBODY has claimed otherwise. The additional funds MUST BE used in clear and transparent management. But additional expenditures are without question needed to fully achieve universality and meet the demands of a still growing population of Dominican students.
Dready's inability to see this obvious point is laughable, at best, and a cruel ploy by him to consistently argue in his obstinate manner.
From: United States
Dready, I see you are back to par, but a boggy awaits on the bunker.
yes, a boggy.
once more, i see where you have resorted to blather, rather than answer simple questions, like HOW MUCH DOES YOUR FIGURE REPRESENT AS A PER CAPITA EXPENDITURE. no amount of foolish remarks, about boggies, can camouflage the fact that you are just rambling, incoherently, without idea of structure. again, i lower myself by engaging you.
From: United States, SDQ -- Mia --NY
Quantity is good, but "QUALITY" is much more important......
Let's see ....
THINK, Atabey has not explained how additional allocations from the budget will uplift the QUALITY of education. we all know that it will buy more capital assets, and pay for more current expenditures. he does not explain how it will affect the storehouse of existing knowledge, which teachers are required to impart, and how it will affect the receptiveness of school age children to educational intitatives. so, he will ramble on , about boggies, whatever they may be.
Dready,
If you want to attack educational deficiencies in a nation you have to spend to correct the problem.
No way out of that reality. BTW, why has Jamaica spent 5-7% of GDP in education? And Costa Rica, too?
Are these two nations stupid to dedicate these funds for their people?
As another poster says: THINK
Money can buy anything, including a better education.
Question is, in today's economy, where do you find it?
Cut military expenditure by half.
Cut the senate and house of deputies by half.
Establish a lottery to ,(exclusively), benefit education.
Tax all remittances $1 dollar for every $100.00 sent.
Tax tobacco and alcohol 10% higher than what it is.
Legalize Marijuana and Cocaine and tax accordingly.
Build attractive, secure, and well staffed brothels and impose a 10% tax.
This will generate, initially, at least, half a billion dollars per year.
This will more than enough, take care of this problem...no fuss, no muss.
Agree will all the above except
"Legalize Marijuana and Cocaine and tax accordingly."
Alcohol and tobacco are legal and taxed in most countries, but still cause massive problems. Adding Marijuana and Cocaine will only make it worse. The revenue collected in tax, no-matter what the rate is, will be miniscule compared to the real cost, just as it is with alcohol and tobacco. Also if it does not work, legalization is irreversible. Look what happened in USA during the Prohibition Era.
There are already enough (or too many) legal drugs available, aren't there?
When governments impose a tax supposedly to reduce consumption, they become addicted to the revenue generated themselves, and lose sight of the original objective.
"Cut military expenditure by half.
Cut the senate and house of deputies by half.
Establish a lottery to ,(exclusively), benefit education.
Tax all remittances $1 dollar for every $100.00 sent.
Tax tobacco and alcohol 10% higher than what it is.
Legalize Marijuana and Cocaine and tax accordingly.
Build attractive, secure, and well staffed brothels and impose a 10% tax."
You're on the right track. Unlike some other folks who just want to wallow in their eternal negativity, you seek creative ways toward providing resources for the huge outlays needed to correct the educational deficit in DR.
The Marijuana and Cocaine tax will be most difficult because of both internal(Church/ conservative opposition) and external (USA & probably EU) opposition. I'm not opposed on moral grounds but quality issues need to be enforced and strong care taken to prevent our youth from becoming consumers before they have a chance to use their brains. Start with MJane first
{"Alcohol and tobacco are legal and taxed in most countries, but still cause massive problems. Adding Marijuana and Cocaine will only make it worse."}
{"The Marijuana and Cocaine tax will be most difficult because of both internal(Church/ conservative opposition) and external (USA & probably EU) opposition."}
Totally agree with both your statements.
The big problem with unregulated legal drugs is the absence of moneys to do just that. Any child bearing the correct amount, will be sold anything and everything--including illegal drugs--! It is also no secret, that Coke and MJ are sold in the open market sanctioned by some military and government officials. The number keeps growing. Matters not how much force is put into curtailing these drugs, it'll always find its' way around. There's no winning the war on drugs!
The number one cause of criminal activity, incarceration of many a youth, murder and other acts of violence is undoubtedly due to the trafficking of illegal drugs...When decriminalisation is enacted, the criminal elements are exorcised from the equation... transactions will become safe and controlled.
Needles to say, our nation will become a heaven for sexual tourism, pot heads and coke fiends..Absolutely!
But let's look at the benefits: A huge windfall. Money galore, that'll take care of all our social ills, including those that may become addicted to these drugs. Criminal activity will plummet, (I'm not being naive, here). The nation will prosper as never before!
Las Vegas, Nev. is called "sin city"; DR will become "Devil's island"!!
Of course, the US and EU and the church will become very upset and who knows how they'll react. But what can they do?...We're a free and sovereign nation, free to rule ourselves as we darn please!
From: United States
Danny, before you post remarks on the site, you should do some research, first. that way, you do not end up looking like some other guys here, who rattle on, without facts. Israel ranks number 17 in the world, behind some caribbean countries, at 7.5%. Cuba is in the 18% range. really easy to research. Google works wonders.
RATTLE ON? ME? MY POINT WAS THAT HOW COME ISRAEL WITH ONLY 7 MILLION PEOPLE AND ONE VERY SMALL PIECE OF LAND THEY CALL A COUNTRY IS EVEN RANKED?
AND THE DR WITH ALL THEIR SOB STORIES TO CRY ABOUT ARE GOING NO WHERE IN THIS WORLD.
ISRAEL HAS OVER 200 ATOMIC WEAPONS AND I BELIEVE 7-8 ATOMIC BOMBS. OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE CARIBBEAN ARE RAKED HIGHER THEN ISRAEL? MAYBE IN THE DRUG SELLING BUSINESS NOT IN THE TECH BUSINESS CUBA?/ U MUST BE KIDDING ME AND OTHERS. LIKE THEIR BULL THEY HAVE THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE WORLD BULLSHIT I SAY.
AND THE DR WITH ALL THEIR SOB STORIES TO CRY ABOUT ARE GOING NO WHERE IN THIS WORLD.
ISRAEL HAS OVER 200 ATOMIC WEAPONS AND I BELIEVE 7-8 ATOMIC BOMBS. OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE CARIBBEAN ARE RAKED HIGHER THEN ISRAEL? MAYBE IN THE DRUG SELLING BUSINESS NOT IN THE TECH BUSINESS CUBA?/ U MUST BE KIDDING ME AND OTHERS. LIKE THEIR BULL THEY HAVE THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE WORLD BULLSHIT I SAY.
Danny00 dont forget israel has all the backing of all the top nations in the world , not to mention the fact that there is a hidden agenda that israel gets all the accommodations whenever they ask for something . zionist jews are some of the worst despicable people ever created , they are responsible for all the mass killings of palestinians , and destructions of palestinian homes
Time for a little Windex to clean up the Purple Fog:
We are making progress!
After 122 years have passed since Edison perfected the light bulb and almost a hundred years after Ernest Rutherford split the atom, the PURPLE ONES have discovered that the 8 hour school day is beneficial to educational achievement!
What modern geniuses; Einstein had nothing on Lie-onel!
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
What idiots we have governing us!
If you want to attack educational deficiencies in a nation you have to spend to correct the problem.
does this mean that we might soon see the figure i asked you for?
How much funding goes to school construction, teacher salaries, administrators, materials, etc., IS beyond the expertise of anyone here at DT to pinpoint. But what is truly NOT beyond reasonable minded people to acknowledge is the overall NECESSITY of increasing spending over time to arrive at a truly UNIVERSAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATIONAL COVERAGE, K-12, in DR.
Your figure IS irrelevant to this discussion Dready. The salient point, the crux of the matter, is that moving forward, DR WILL HAVE to spend more funds, thus a higher contribution of her GDP, to arrive at and sustain a UNIVERSAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATIONAL COVERAGE, K-12.
Now that's not too hard to comprehend. Heck it's worked in Jamaica, Costa Rica and EVERYWHERE else! 2.3% of GDP will NEVER achieve UNIVERSAL EDUCATIONAL COVERAGE in any developing nation.
I'm not an economist or financial expert, but my guess is, it would take far more than 4% GDP to bring existing schools, teachers and materials up to standard, then double them to allow an 8-hour teaching day as opposed to the current 4.
My suggestion is to scrap the conventional schooling system altogether, and jump to an internet-based system, with a computer and webcam in every home. These computers would need to be especially made to ensure they can only be used for education, not games, chat, video, etc., and the internet only access to the specific education sites.
Please consider.
a study, as far back as 1999, shopwed that it it would cost 6.50 US, per student, per year, to put school children on computers. that was when computers were relatively expensive. think about all the rebuilts, the reconditioned computers, and the kits, and that figure will be somewhere around 5 dollars, per year, per student. as to scrapping the system...there is no alternative but to rebuild the model, from the ground up. no band aids. complete makeover. in Latin America, only about 60% of the teachers´time is spent on teaching. up to 30% is spent on enforcing discipline. that is a function of culture, which money cannot fix. Asians are respectful of authority, and age, and their peers, on a general basis. they do not disrupt the class, because of respect for the teacher, and the class, in general. you cannot change that with money.
"How much funding goes to school construction, teacher salaries, administrators, materials, etc., IS beyond the expertise of anyone here at DT to pinpoint."
Certainly a Purple Genius like you could decipher something from here:
http://www.see.gob.do/Transparenc....s/Documentos%20Planificacion.aspx
From: United States
"How much funding goes to school construction, teacher salaries, administrators, materials, etc., IS beyond the expertise of anyone here at DT to pinpoint.
only in the mind of a scholar, such as Atabey, is reading already compiled information¨beyond expertise¨.
DT awaits. Show us Dominicans how much expertise you have on this budgetary breakdown.
At least I'm honest and state what's VERY OBVIOUS: In order to modernize the system of education in DR, more than 2.3% of GDP MUST be allocated.
"DT awaits."
I must have missed the memo which pronounced Atabey as the official spokesperson for DT!
Could anyone please post a copy?
Roy says: [" I hope the parents don't expect the school to now provide their kids with 2 meals per school-day as well."]
I wonder why you think this is a bad idea?
----------------
Dread says: ["since the schools operate on double shifts, simple math means that if this is to be made universal, it will require a doubling of the physical assets, and also the teaching staff. that also means a substantial additional allocation to the education budget."]
Exactly, sir. It takes money to make money. An effective educational program takes money, and money is akin to manure; the more you spread it around, the better things grow. ( Pull the weeds out, first !.).
----------------
Atabey says: ["assuming its good quality food, to students and their learning? studies have clearly demonstrated that good nutrition is crucial for learning."}
Absolutely, sir ! In order to develop ones' mind, and absorb knowledge; brain and body need to be properly nourished.
No, no, fu(king no!
It is hard enough to get sufficient funding to educate the kids, which is the government's responsibility, let alone to feed them which is not their responsibility. Sure you need good nutrition to learn. You also need a good night's sleep. Is it then the government's responsibility to provide housing? Maybe the latest iPhone too, since high self-esteem is also important for learning?
When you relinquish parental responsibility to government, you also lose authority. When governments control fertility, then the kids welfare is their responsibility, not before.
Having said that, I am surprised all the teachers are in favor of the 8-hour day, since I would have thought at least the math teachers would have figured out that it will mean their class sizes will double with no more teachers.
josean, 19 Jan 2012 10:25 AM
From: United States
We are making progress!
After 122 years have passed since Edison perfected the light bulb and almost a hundred years after Ernest Rutherford split the atom, the PURPLE ONES have discovered that the 8 hour school day is beneficial to educational achievement!
What modern geniuses; Einstein had nothing on Lie-onel!
At this rate in, say in 50 years they may stumble upon the fact the Sun is at the center of our solar system!
What idiots we have governing us!
"No, no, fu(king no!
It is hard enough to get sufficient funding to educate the kids, which are the government's responsibility, let alone to feed them which are not their responsibility."
Au contraire, Mon ami….It is exclusively the responsibility and ultimate goal of governments to educate, house, clothe and feed its’ people!!...And I’m not talking Socialism or a welfare state, here; I’m saying leaders have a mandate to grow a nation’s economy by investing in ways that will, above all, benefit the economy and as consequence, bring about the means by which all this can be had.
I’m saying the ONLY way to ever becoming prosperous and self-reliant is to spend greatly and seriously, in nurturing our children.
Once we “grow” our next generation of capable individuals, the money spent, will seem insignificant compared to the benefits it’ll reap. Any and all business ventures, in order to become successful and thrive, must be laden with sweat and lots of sacrifices. No shit.
"laden with sweat and lots of sacrifices" are you kidding? We are taking about one of the laziest and most selfish populations on the planet.
In a democracy, a government does not have a mandate to do what is right, sensible, economically viable, whatever. It only has a right to do what the electorate vote for. Clearly education in not a priority for most Dominican voters. If a government can't convince the electorate otherwise, (and why would they) then things stay as they are. Sometimes things have to get worse before they will improve. When a population deludes itself into believing they already have the best county in the world, what is there to change? The huge numbers at these 4% demonstrations are conspicuous by their absence. I know, I've been to them.
"" are you kidding? We are taking about one of the laziest and most selfish populations on the planet. ""
----------------
Roy, you keep hammering on the same nail... As per your interpretation: Dominicans are lazy, deluded, selfish, whatever. Your mind is set on what IT IS, not on what it COULD be.
If you stop to think and look around a little, ---no, not around your neighborhood--- you may see a hint of what our DR is, and the potential it has, for a much better future.
What we need most is a catalyst to resolve the educational impasse and I think Medina is it. I got a chance to see him talk on TV the other day, and was impressed by how he felt on the dire state of education in our country. I think he honestly, "gets" the picture. We may be much closer to a real shot at a much improved school system. The nation-wide proposed, eight- hour school day, gives me much to hope for.
"DT awaits."
I must have missed the memo which pronounced Atabey as the official spokesperson for DT!
Could anyone please post a copy?
you don't need a copy. not to the thinking of Atabey.he says so, therefore it is so. sadly, he fails to realize that the great majority of readers here see him as moron.
I have yet to hear a politician in an electioneering speech say he's gonna line his pockets and doesn't give a fu(k about education.
Now pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
Ohh and I have seen more of the Dominican Republic than most Dominicans, not just my neighborhood. I think I was the only gringo in the basilica during Saturday's wankfest.
{"when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made."}
Mr. Roy. Once in a while, one comes across someone who actually means what he says. It's a rare bird, indeed, but there is such an animal.
You can't categorize everyone as belonging in the same collection or designation... Even in politics, one finds the occasional honest, progressive thinker who means well and wants to do good by everyone.
I wouldn't label anyone prior to discerning his true leanings. Not all lawyers are crooked and not all politicians, corrupt.
Yes I am sure many enter politics with high ideals - they're gonna fix the system. Then they find it's not so easy, and there are personal benefits to be had by not rocking the boat. Then instead of being part of the solution, they become part of the problem. Interesting that you group lawyers with politicians, since in Australia at least, many politicians start out as lawyers.
Not everyone thinks the same or, for the sake of conformity, sacrifices his/her principles... True revolutionaries have one thing in common: They don't sell their soul....They stand firm for what they believe in, and act accordingly, regardless of whose boat is being rocked.
One thing you need to understand: There's imbecility in predicting that things can't be done or will never work . Those are the forecasts that'll make you look shortsighted and downright foolish!