Santo Domingo. - Yesterday’s accusation by the United States that Dominican society’s “endemic corruption” hobbles the war on drug trafficking is sure to draw the rebuke of various prominent sectors who call Washington’s policy hypocritical.
The US said however that it’s not the Dominican Government’s policy to encourage or facilitate drug trafficking and acknowledged advances in 2011 and even stressed fewer suspicious flights and more confiscations.
“As policy, the Dominican Government neither encourages or facilitates the production, processing or distribution of narcotics, psychotropics and other controlled substances, nor tolerates the activities related to money laundering, nevertheless, corruption continues being endemic in all levels of Dominican society,” says the annual strategy report against drugs, sent by the State Department to the US Congress.
Washington affirms that the cooperation between the US and Dominican governments to control drug trafficking, international crime and the search for fugitives continues strong. “The United States receives an excellent cooperation from the National Drugs Control Agency and other Dominican authorities.”
It recognizes that the authorities have heightened the vigilance on sea routes lanes, maintaining his capacity to prevent the use with Dominican airspace for the traffic of drugs.
Double standard
But critics including Ethics Commission president and the Cardinal Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez have criticized Washington’s “double standard” against the country, when despite its searing reports against Santo Domingo, keep silence on the outcome of major narcotics and money laundering cases such as the one of ex Dominican Army captain Qiurino Paulino, whose entire family of around 12 people was taken to the US under its witness protection program.
They have also questioned Washington’s refusal to provide more technology, especially air surveillance radar, despite the fact that most of the drugs that enter Dominican Republic is destined to US shores.
From: Dominican Republic, NEVER FORGOTTEN, NEVER FORSAKEN!
Not only endemic but pandemic is a better way to describe what is going on in DR, starting with those in power, and the sad thing is that those who wants to rule for the next 4 years aren't any better.
From: United States
“endemic corruption”
I'll go "endemic transparent inbred corruption" that they wear as a badge of honor.
Throw in shameless and the young ill educated so they only look forward to their "badge of honor".
From: Dominican Republic
Dear Leonel, the truth hurts however you don't want to give up your wonderful style of living no matter what.
Written by: Alfyrose, 8 Mar 2012 8:17 AM
From: United States
"Those in power" only look out for themselves. I don't think there has ever been a time when "La Bella Quisqueya" had someone looking out for her and her children. Everyone in government is driven by greed, corruption, and envy, and until the whole country takes a stand it'll remain that way for decades to come. It's a vicious cycle.
Written by: Pedrin, 8 Mar 2012 8:28 AM
From: United States
Corrupt from top to bottom. The truth hurts.
From: Dominican Republic, Puerto Plata
Lots of double talk.
Why does the US "help" so much a society they (rightfully) call corrupt?
Let them drown in their own vomit.
Written by: zooma, 8 Mar 2012 8:36 AM
From: United States
It is the truth, there is endemic corruption, the everyday citizen knows it. However, because the government does not accept bad criticism from any source it will circle the wagons and blame the messenger for invading national sovereignty and slandering the country. The only thing it wants from the US is money, period !!!!
The guilty dog barks the loudest.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 9:03 AM
From: United States, NYC
WalterPolo,
Lots of double talk.
Why does the US "help" so much a society they (rightfully) call corrupt?
Let them drown in their own vomit."
Yes, and then who has to pick up the piece from a massive flow of people trying to EXIT the island?
It all boils down to managing these banana republics. A sort of Containment Policy.
Want a clearer picture of why the international system has largely failed to extract penalties against those who would prey on their own people? Then look no further than how the BIG boys go about their business. The Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Switzerland, Lichtenstein of this world have enormous sums of monies that have been taken out of many of these banana republics. If the Big Boys really wanted to curtail a lot of this monkey business it could do so, but then again, it would put its OWN enablers at risk. And that's the crux of the issue.
And guess who racks up 3.6 trillion in assets the world over? USA.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 9:03 AM
From: United States, NYC
As IRS Crusades Against Americans Hiding Money Offshore, Latin American Tax Cheats Flock to US Banks
By The Center for Public Integrity May 18, 2011 2:15 pm
IRS event today on plan to force banks to report foreign nationals' accounts.
Teams of private bankers working for powerful banks court wealthy people from distant shores with this sales pitch: Move your cash to our country. We will keep it safe and secret.
these tax experts say, the United States itself serves as a massive haven for international tax cheats.
“We’re the biggest tax haven in the world,” says Robert Goulder, editor-in-chief of US-based Tax Notes International. “People joke about the Cayman Islands. The biggest haven is an island, all right. It’s either Manhattan or Great Britain.”
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 9:06 AM
From: United States, NYC
Jack Blum, a former US Senate investigator and an authority on offshore tax shelters, says US bankers “sell tax evasion to citizens of Central America, the Caribbean, all over Latin America.” The US government hasn’t put a stop to it, Blum says, because bankers and politicians don’t want to stop the flow of foreign cash into the United States.
American banks deny they enable tax evasion by citizens of other lands.
Alex Sanchez, president of the Florida Bankers Association, says Latin Americans move their money to the United States not to evade taxes but to keep it safe from tyrants and kidnappers.
“People down there don’t trust their institutions,” Sanchez says. “You think people trust (Venezuelan President) Hugo Chavez? You think they trust the Colombian government with all the narcotraffickers and corruption down there?”
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 9:07 AM
From: United States, NYC
Foreign depositors have placed an estimated $3.6 trillion with US banks and securities firms, a Department of Commerce study reported. Much of the money isn’t disclosed to tax authorities in their home countries, according to Blum and other critics of US tax haven practices.
The American government provides little help to Mexico and other poorer countries whose citizens have squirreled money in the United States. US officials can’t tell these countries about their citizens’ bank accounts here because the government doesn’t collect the information.
Under American law, non-U.S. citizens living outside the United States who deposit money in US banks are not subject to US taxes, and the deposits and interest don’t have to be reported. The one exception: money deposited by Canadians. Their government has a banking information exchange pact with the United States.
Mexican officials have pleaded to get the same deal that Canada has with Washington, but without luck so far.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 9:10 AM
From: United States, NYC
A History as a Haven
Investigations over the past half century have uncovered many examples of Third World dictators and drug cartels laundering money through US banks. A 1999 US Senate investigation reported that Citibank (C) had had “a rogues’ gallery of private bank clients,” including two daughters of former Indonesian President Suharto, a strongman who was alleged to have looted billions of dollars from his country.
But the problem isn’t just drug lords and political grafters, Tax Notes International's Goulder says. It’s also plastic surgeons, dentists, architects and other affluent Latin Americans who are usually law-abiding citizens — except when it comes to reporting their incomes and bank balances to tax collectors.
US bankers began a concerted push in the 1970s to lure so-called hot money from a wide range of well-off Latin Americans seeking to avoid taxes in their home countries, according to James S. Henry,
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 9:11 AM
From: United States, NYC
a former chief economist for McKinsey & Co. and author of books and papers on offshore money.
By the mid-1980s, Henry says, his research revealed Citibank was taking more money out of developing nations than it was lending to them, and its private banking group had become its most profitable unit.
Citibank, Henry wrote, “resorted to skullduggery and the flouting of local laws all over the planet.” It sent private bankers undercover to Argentina, Venezuela and other destinations, helping to spawn thousands of shell companies and “concealing vast sums of flight capital from Third World tax authorities” while lobbying Congress to maintain “near-Swiss secrecy” for foreign depositors, Henry claims.
A Citigroup spokesman declined to comment on its private banking unit’s history in Latin America and other regions."
Written by: Juango, 8 Mar 2012 10:27 AM
From: United States, far S. Florida (formerly Santo Domingo)
I'm waiting to hear Temo Montas's response to this US statement, as it will certainly ruffel his proud feathers. I truly believe, that Dominican society in general cannot (and will not) help themselves. Most all politicos look for the easy road (to riches), no matter the cost. There are of course a few exceptions. It is a society based on fraud, lies, and corruption. It appears no political party is exempt of this cancer. Perhaps, now is time for a Benevolent Dictator (a strong hand who's word is LAW), to straighten out this mess. The US State Dept is building a new Embassy in Santo Domingo. What the hell is that going to change !
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:46 AM
From: United States, NYC
Perhaps if the BIG Boys helped?
"Dirty money moving from Latin America to the United States isn’t a problem that has gone away. Last year, Wachovia Bank agreed to pay $160 million to settle charges that it had helped Mexican outlaws launder drug money. Wachovia, which became a unit of Wells Fargo & Co. (WFC) in 2008, acknowledged it had turned a blind eye to $13 million in deposits that had been used to purchase airplanes used by drug traffickers. Authorities seized more than 20,000 kilograms of cocaine from these aircraft, according to US prosecutors."
Diamonds in a Toothpaste Tube
As illicit cash has flowed into the United States, the IRS has worked to beat back tax havens — such as Switzerland and the Caymans — that conceal money on behalf of American citizens.
The efforts often haven’t done much to stem the flow of cash, but the IRS got a break in 2007 when Bradley Birkenfeld, a former private banker with UBS, turned whistleblower.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:48 AM
From: United States, NYC
In court documents, Birkenfeld said that UBS bankers advised American customers to withdraw funds by using Swiss credit cards that couldn’t be traced by US authorities. On one occasion, Birkenfeld told investigators, he used funds from an American client’s Swiss account to buy diamonds and then smuggled the jewels into the United States inside a toothpaste tube.
His information helped American authorities establish that UBS maintained around 17,000 undisclosed accounts for US citizens.
In a historic breach of Swiss banking secrecy, the bank and Swiss government agreed in 2009 to turn over the names of nearly 5,000 big account holders. UBS agreed to pay a $780 million settlement to the U.S. government, admitting that it had “participated in a scheme to defraud the United States” by helping Americans hide assets from the IRS.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:49 AM
From: United States, NYC
‘I Became a Fraudster’
In 2008, as the UBS investigation was heating up, another case emerged that could have shifted some of the attention away from Switzerland and put the focus on America’s role as a tax haven.
A private banker working for JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM) had gone rogue. The bank discovered questionable transfers of money by Hernan Arbizu, a New York-based JP Morgan vice president in charge of some $200 million in Argentinian accounts. The bank sued, claiming that Arbizu had stolen money from a client’s account in order to pay off money he had taken from a customer at his old job at UBS. Federal prosecutors charged him with wire fraud.
That part of the story drew notice in the United States. But news organizations and federal officials paid less attention to the other part of the story — Arbizu’s claims that JP Morgan had helped Argentinean customers evade taxes and launder dirty money.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:50 AM
From: United States, NYC
“I became a fraudster from the minute I started working in private banking, because if you think about it, I was committing fraud against Argentina as a whole through our activities here,” Arbizu, who fled to Argentina, told Bloomberg News in a 2009 interview.
In Argentina, the case exploded into a major scandal. One media outlet ran the headline “EL MORGANGATE” and revealed the names and deposit balances of some 200 citizens with JP Morgan accounts in the US.
JP Morgan has denied that it helps private banking clients evade taxes or commit fraud. A bank spokesman declined to comment on the Arbizu case.
Earlier this month, JP Morgan won a default judgment of nearly $3.6 million against Arbizu in the civil case. The US Justice Department declined comment on whether it was seeking to extradite Arbizu from Argentina on the criminal charges.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:51 AM
From: United States, NYC
'A Big Source of Income'
The Arbizu case didn’t spark calls from American policymakers for an investigation into onshore banks’ marketing to rich foreigners.
The issue isn’t a politically appealing one, given the money at stake. “I haven’t seen many American politicians wanting to take on the US as a tax haven,” Henry, the economist and offshore case expert, told iWatch News. “It’s a big source of income for this country.”
Mexican officials, though, have been raising questions about US banking secrecy.
In early 2009, Mexico’s Secretary of Finance Agustin Carstens wrote US treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner asking that the United States share data about Mexican citizens’ US accounts. Because the United States and Mexico don’t exchange information, Carstens wrote, both individual tax evaders and organized crime figures are being allowed to move their money across borders.
US Treasury officials didn’t respond to questions from iWatchNews about Mexico’s request.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:52 AM
From: United States, NYC
The political distrust of efforts to reduce US bank secrecy can be seen in the Florida congressional delegation’s March 2 letter to Obama.
The letter says the IRS proposal to require US bankers and money managers to report interest paid to foreign depositors “would likely result in the flight of hundreds of billions of dollars from US financial institutions.” People from other countries put their money here, the lawmakers said, because their governments are unstable and they worry that if information about their bank accounts gets out, they could be left vulnerable to political terrorists or for-profit kidnappers.
“I feel sorry for hard-working people in these countries. You’re targeted,” says Sanchez, the Florida Bankers Association president. “You don’t have to be super-rich. I’m just talking about doing well.”
Blum, the former Senate investigator, counters that tax evasion is one of the causes of the political and social dangers in Latin America, not the solution.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 10:55 AM
From: United States, NYC
Bottom line:
DR has a problem with corruption, but this problem of corruption extends VERY FAR into the Global system. And the USA, Europe and other BIG BOYS have a HUGE hand and STAKE in how it operates for GOOD and BAD.
Let's be a little more honest about this issue.
Written by: RoyStone, 8 Mar 2012 10:56 AM
From: Australia
Ethics Commission president Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez, is certainly highly qualified to speak about double-standards, hypocrisy, corruption and avoiding tax -
Hes a Cardinal in the Catholic Church!
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 11:00 AM
From: United States, NYC
Roy,
3.6 TRILLION, eh?
Written by: RoyStone, 8 Mar 2012 11:02 AM
From: Australia
Yes, Atabey,
There is corruption in many countries around the world,
and Dominicans are amongst the best at it.
Written by: Escott, 8 Mar 2012 11:02 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Yeah, the DR is a less corrupt place than the US. Keep on trying to sell that crap. Good luck to you!
Atabey you are just a cheerleader like little Richard.
Written by: generoso, 8 Mar 2012 11:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
The Cardinal makes some valid points as well, as the reasons for the drug trade are not "cut and dry", as the US wants them to be, although the "pathologically corrupt" are a big incentive.
Nobody knows what happened with the Quirino sidekicks, both military, civilian sponsors and who are the heirs of his vast drug network, and the public is entitled to know this information.
Regarding the air surveillance radar, and why the US does not provide one, (there was one in the past and the US removed it) that is the million dollar question. It is a possibility that the radar manufacturers, are pressuring the DR to buy new technology, from the national treasure?.
PS: Atabey
Instead of cut and pasting so many distracting messages, wouldn't it be better to open a forum thread?
Or is this Atabey Today?
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 11:17 AM
From: United States, NYC
no Escott,
I'm just trying to put things INTO PROSPECTIVE!
We Dominicans love to trash our own problems and believe that the worst of everything is Dominican. If it's baseball well AROD is the worst and on and on...
I haven't said we don't need to correct these problems in DR, only that there are FAR more important PLAYERS involved. And these players have a far greater hand in this business than many people want to acknowledge. :)
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 11:26 AM
From: United States, NYC
PS: Atabey
Instead of cut and pasting so many distracting messages, wouldn't it be better to open a forum thread?
I believe that the article is very apropos for the discussion as it makes the case that with 3.6 TRILLION DOLLARS at stake, the USA, among other major players, actually promotes the very corrupt practices that have led to this problem in Latin America, and in our country, the DR.
But I'll post it on the Forum section so that we can expand on the matter. Thanks
P.S.
Don't you find it interesting that the USA allows Canada to have access to this information but withholds it from Mexico and the rest of Latin America?
Written by: generoso, 8 Mar 2012 11:39 AM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Atabey
I agree, but this daily news section is designed for current opinions, not cut and paste of competing news articles.
PS: Others do this also, but it just dilutes and distracts the conversation.
Thanks for your understanding and civility.
From: United States
it leaves me nonplussed that, in the light of accusations such as these, the very best that Atabey can muster is to trot out a parade of copy and paste irrelevant rejoinders, which add nothing meaningful to the discourse, and serve to mutate it into an exercise in relativist judgements. corruption has devastating effects on the economy. i suggest thatthose who would like to understand some of the inner workings should read, among other literature, the following working papers
1...Corruption and Rent Seeking...Lambsdorff
2...Discretionary Power, Rent Seeking, and Corruption....Enrico Colombatto
in economic terms , rent is the income that an asset earns over and above what it would earn in the next best alternative application. Mike Tyson earns 20 million dollars for knocking out an opponent. if he did not have that rare talent, he would probably be packing groceries in a supermarket. the rent that can be attributed to his earnings is 20 million, minus, perhaps, 30,000 per year
From: United States
the same applies to rent seeking, and public allocation of government funds. because of corruption, the monies are channeled into unproductive ventures, which produce very little real wealth, and are virtual transfer funds. the economy suffers for it. hiring 40 deputy ministers represents rent seeking, and the marginal productivity of that many people, in a single branch of government, experiences the very early onset of diminishing returns. however, it looks good on paper, since the GDP increases, by virtue of government expenditure.
From: Dominican Republic
yes it is a double standard for the US to call the Dominican Republic corrupt..... But the main difference is that they have done it in a "lawful" way, namely Corporatism... Where policies are dictated by business not the people, allowing banks, Wall-street, insurance companies etc etc to buy political influence and control how politicians vote.. ect ect and we all know the rest....
The DR government is more open in it's dealings and show no restraint and contempt in how they openly loot the public coffers...
As far as the drug problem the DR government will look to play ball and hand over the very obvious cases and those patsies not playing the Governments game.. Otherwise the money will stop coming from the USA and other sources of cash to also line their pockets with...
Written by: RoyStone, 8 Mar 2012 1:05 PM
From: Australia
Can anyone tell me why the countries with the greatest proportion of Catholics have the highest level of crime and corruption?
From: United States
Roy, i am sure there is a simple answer to that. i will look for it.
Written by: Atabey, 8 Mar 2012 4:06 PM
From: United States, NYC
"because of corruption, the monies are channeled into unproductive ventures, which produce very little real wealth, and are virtual transfer funds. the economy suffers for it. hiring 40 deputy ministers represents rent seeking, and the marginal productivity of that many people, in a single branch of government, experiences the very early onset of diminishing returns. however, it looks good on paper, since the GDP increases, by virtue of government expenditure." Dready howlers
Brother Louv Dready,
Do yourself a favor and check out the sky-line in Miami, Florida. You might be surprised how that sky-line got built. Check out The Cocaine Cowboys, a documentary on the impact of the drug trade in Miami.
Also, the slave trade, the Opium Trade, booze, etc., have all made many a great fortune for the US, Europe and others.
Even a certain Prime Minister in jolly JAmaica stated that the ganga trade was a crucial part of Jamaica economic stability. Seaga, remember him?
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
Roy asks,
Can anyone tell me why the countries with the greatest proportion of Catholics have the highest level of crime and corruption?
Why don't you ask your English speaking African brothers that question?
Written by: RoyStone, 8 Mar 2012 11:45 PM
From: Australia
perlurdom,
I have asked but they don't know. Most Dominicans I know don't know about other countries, except maybe Washington Heights and that's not really America.
Written by: Atabey, 9 Mar 2012 12:01 AM
From: United States, NYC
How about the Lower East Side and a visit to Katz's Deli?
Written by: jasfalon, 9 Mar 2012 7:38 AM
From: United States
The US knows that RD generals fly the coke in from Columbian cartels, for distribution to Europe, Mexico, and the US.They allow it, and then RD will do whatever US republicans and democrats want, politically and economically. EVERBODY knows the truth. The CIA is evil, as is Leonel and his cronies.
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
No, Roy.
I am taking about asking your brothers from former British colonies, those colonies that were not massively populated with European people and where the local natives were able to survive. i.e. Ghana, Kenya, Liberia, Malawi, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe...
As far as I know in these countries the number of Catholics is not high, but crime and corruption are. Maybe your English speaking brothers can give you a better perspective.
From: United States
instructs Atabey
Dready,
Do yourself a favor and check out the sky-line in Miami, Florida. You might be surprised how that sky-line got built. Check out The Cocain Cowboys, a documentary on the impact of the drug trade in Miami.
Atabey, when i was spending time in Miami, you had never heard of the USA.
From: Dominican Republic
Ghana, Kenya, Liberia, Malawi, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe... Were all European colonies so they were all religion based, over the years catholic or christian number are smaller and islam is growing... I think Roy is not just commenting on Catholics but any organised religion as being the main factor to what would be a correlation between crime, curruption and religion...
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 3:18 PM
From: Australia
perlurdom,
Africa is the only continent I have not stayed in so I have no direct knowledge, experience or friends there. Still I would like to go - I seen to have a penchant for dangerous places. However i did meet Robert Mugabe briefly when he came to Australia many years ago - he was a hero of the new Africa in those days. Now the only place he's welcome (in European countries at least) is the Vatican.
Certainly the percentage of Roman Catholics per-se are not high in the countries you mentioned, however countries like Zambia and Zimbabwe are predominantly Christian, which is based on the Catholic tradition.
It is interesting to note the current wave of torture of children in Nigeria, accused of witchcraft by Christian clergy, reminiscent of the golden era of the Catholic Church, the Dark Ages.
So what is your point?
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 3:21 PM
From: Australia
Here's an example of Christianity in Nigeria:
"The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.
His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him - Mount Zion Lighthouse.
A month later, he died."
Written by: Atabey, 9 Mar 2012 3:29 PM
From: United States, NYC
Written by: dreadlocks, 9 Mar 2012 2:09 PM
From: United States
instructs Atabey
Dready,
Do yourself a favor and check out the sky-line in Miami, Florida. You might be surprised how that sky-line got built. Check out The Cocaine Cowboys, a documentary on the impact of the drug trade in Miami.
Atabey, when i was spending time in Miami, you had never heard of the USA."
I hope you were not looking behind bars. Were you down with Brother Keith Gordon AKA
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 3:30 PM
From: Australia
stillhere,
You are absolutely correct.
The heyday of Christian atrocities was in the Catholic instigated Dark Ages in Europe, and spilling over into the European colonies. However their atrocities continue today, be it it to a lesser extent in 1st world countries. For example Adolf Hitler, a darling of the Vatican and a devout Catholic, drew some of his inspiration from the Holy Bible.
However Islam is rising faster than Christianity is dying out, and will eventually plunge not just Europe and the former colonies, but the entire world into a new, probably even deeper and more horrific Dark Ages.
God is Great.
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 3:47 PM
From: Australia
perlurdom,
I can say I have spoken to a number of my "brothers from former British colonies, those colonies that were not massively populated with European people and where the local natives were able to survive" - Australian Aborigines - in the cities as well as very remote traditional areas.
They were actually approaching extinction, until British settlement. Now their numbers have increased exponentially since then, however they are still extremely violent, particularly to each other and especially their women and children, and with many living in absolute squalor.
So what do they say the reason is? Despite massive funding in welfare, we don't give them enough money, and we committed the atrocity of trying to educate them, improve their health and rescue their abandoned or abused children.
However the overall rate of crime, corruption and violence in the country is low, as is religious faith.
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 3:50 PM
From: Australia
I have also spent a lot of time in New Zealand. The Maoris also have much higher rates of crime and domestic violence than the Pakeha. They say it is due to "post-colonial stress disorder". They bash their kids because of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840.
However the overall rate of crime, corruption and violence in this country is also low, as is religious faith.
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
Roy,
In terms of crime and corroption, what makes Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Kenya or Jamaica different from Australia, New Zealand, United States or Canada? They are all former British colonies... How religious people is? or how Christian people is?
Why is Uruguay or Chile less violent and corrupt than Bolivia, Peru, DR or Mexico?
What's your point?
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
Roy,
Here is the answer to your question:
EDUCATION... Repeat with me EDUCATION.
Now how come some of these former colonies realized that Education was the way to go?
Most of the inhabitants of todays less violent and corrupt societies came from EUROPE which was already a developed society when the natives of these lands were still trying to figure out how lit a fire.
The more Europeans the less violent and corrupt, if you have more natives in the soup then you have a different result.
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 5:34 PM
From: Australia
perlurdom,,
You may have a point.
Before European settlement, (with the exception of those in the extreme north), Aborigines had been cut off from the rest of humanity for about 30,000 years. They missed out on the evolution from being hunter-gathers to having permanent dwellings, growing crops, storing grain, domesticating animals and having a written language. Like no other race on Earth, remained literally, in the stone-age. Children were children of the tribe. They did not have nuclear families as such, and did not even know there was a connection between sex and pregnancy.
Had Australia been settled by the Spanish or the Portuguese Catholics, (rather than British Protestants) they probably would have been exterminated, as they were unsuitable for slavery.
New Zealand Maoris were happy to sign the Treaty of Waitangi as it provided protection from each other, by British soldiers.
From: Dominican Republic
The more Europeans the less violent and corrupt, ... Most indigence people has violence and corruption but not the the extent that the European brought.....
EDUCATION... Repeat with me EDUCATION. educate me to bow down to your god.... force me to give you my gold, land and food...... educate me to forget how my ancestors lived, our customs and way of life before you killed, enslaved and destroyed all before you....
From: United States
says Perludom
The more Europeans the less violent and corrupt
does that exclude the 100 years war, the 30 years war, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, World Wars 1 and 2, the Holocaust, the TransAtlantic Slave Trade, and other such exemplars of pacificism?
From: Dominican Republic
The more Europeans the less violent and corrupt, if you have more natives in the soup then you have a different result.
So the conquistadors should have finished the job better???
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
Stillhere, Dreadlocks,
Unfortunately the majority of our people still think and act like if they were living in the dark ages (Medieval period). It takes thousands of years to form a developed society, education is the only way to accelerate this process. It has taken eons of years to develop the societies that we all admire today. The truth hurts, the majority of our people are just aborigines driving cars that someone else designed and manufactures, using a phone that we do not know how it works, and using technology that we don't have a clue how it functions and what capacities it has.
We have three options if we want to live in a less violent and corrupt society:
Eduacate our kids, fill our country with Europeans, Japanese etc...or move out of the country. Plain and simple.
Written by: RoyStone, 9 Mar 2012 10:06 PM
From: Australia
perlurdom,states,
" the majority of our people are just aborigines driving cars that someone else designed and manufactured"
True but I would go further than that. No one alive, or even a team, company or country, designed and manufactured a car from scratch. Cars, and manufacturing technologies, have evolved over a number of generations. This knowledge has been past down through the ages, evolving with changes in desires and expectations, building on what has gone before. We are still almost the same animals we were 20,000 years ago - we have not evolved much in that time, only civilization has evolved enormously, at an ever increasing rate. We are still selfish, superstitious, silly animals underneath.
The sooner we realize this the sooner we can shape civilization to mankind's benefit.
From: United States
perludom, i understand exactly what you are saying, even though the narrative is a little caustic. you are right, and not only is there a situation in which people know very little, but too few want to learn, thinking that they know it already. i am tired of saying this, but my hobby is high end stereo equipment. i am a minor authority on the subject. VERY MINOR. when i blog on hi fi sites, all i ever do is ask questions, because the other posters know so much more than i do, that it is pointless, in my case, to do more than listen, and try to learn. however, locally, i am a little more than a minor authority, relatively speaking. i try to teach guys the baics of building a decent speaker, but they ignore my efforts, because they know enough, already. so, 50 years hence, when the rest of the world is building virtual speakers, guys here will still be building firewood that talks.
Written by: Atabey, 11 Mar 2012 1:14 PM
From: United States, NYC
Perludom,
Whilst I agree with you on DR having too many ignorant people, I totally disagree with you on that it takes "thousands of years" to create a civilized society.
Yes, it will not happen overnight nor in a few decades time, but its structure can be significantly advanced in two to three generations WITH GOOD GOVERNANCE. Unfortunately for us Dominicans, good governance has NOT been the case throughout our bitter and tragic history. Still there are signs that things are not as bad as before. The modernization process has not been as robust and sustained in all the areas we agree need attention, like education, but movement even in that embattled task is seeing signs of improvement. With more targeted attention, more intelligent investments and good management, we might yet see the end of the tunnel on that perennial problem in a few decades. But it will not be an easy task, nor will correcting the myriad of other social and economic issues that confront DR.
Written by: RoyStone, 11 Mar 2012 1:19 PM
From: Australia
"firewood that talks" Dready - I love it!
Where I am, it doesn't talk, it shouts, screams and thumps, at maximum volume, +8 dB bass boost below 500 Hz, maximum distortion that hurtz the ears and numbs the brain.
(and they call it "music"!)
From: United States
Roy, you forgot the 12db boost above 3000 cycles. that is the noise that sounds like 100 cobras hissing.
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“endemic corruption”
I'll go "endemic transparent inbred corruption" that they wear as a badge of honor.
Throw in shameless and the young ill educated so they only look forward to their "badge of honor".
Why does the US "help" so much a society they (rightfully) call corrupt?
Let them drown in their own vomit.
It is the truth, there is endemic corruption, the everyday citizen knows it. However, because the government does not accept bad criticism from any source it will circle the wagons and blame the messenger for invading national sovereignty and slandering the country. The only thing it wants from the US is money, period !!!!
The guilty dog barks the loudest.
Lots of double talk.
Why does the US "help" so much a society they (rightfully) call corrupt?
Let them drown in their own vomit."
Yes, and then who has to pick up the piece from a massive flow of people trying to EXIT the island?
It all boils down to managing these banana republics. A sort of Containment Policy.
Want a clearer picture of why the international system has largely failed to extract penalties against those who would prey on their own people? Then look no further than how the BIG boys go about their business. The Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Switzerland, Lichtenstein of this world have enormous sums of monies that have been taken out of many of these banana republics. If the Big Boys really wanted to curtail a lot of this monkey business it could do so, but then again, it would put its OWN enablers at risk. And that's the crux of the issue.
And guess who racks up 3.6 trillion in assets the world over? USA.
By The Center for Public Integrity May 18, 2011 2:15 pm
IRS event today on plan to force banks to report foreign nationals' accounts.
Teams of private bankers working for powerful banks court wealthy people from distant shores with this sales pitch: Move your cash to our country. We will keep it safe and secret.
these tax experts say, the United States itself serves as a massive haven for international tax cheats.
“We’re the biggest tax haven in the world,” says Robert Goulder, editor-in-chief of US-based Tax Notes International. “People joke about the Cayman Islands. The biggest haven is an island, all right. It’s either Manhattan or Great Britain.”
American banks deny they enable tax evasion by citizens of other lands.
Alex Sanchez, president of the Florida Bankers Association, says Latin Americans move their money to the United States not to evade taxes but to keep it safe from tyrants and kidnappers.
“People down there don’t trust their institutions,” Sanchez says. “You think people trust (Venezuelan President) Hugo Chavez? You think they trust the Colombian government with all the narcotraffickers and corruption down there?”
Foreign depositors have placed an estimated $3.6 trillion with US banks and securities firms, a Department of Commerce study reported. Much of the money isn’t disclosed to tax authorities in their home countries, according to Blum and other critics of US tax haven practices.
The American government provides little help to Mexico and other poorer countries whose citizens have squirreled money in the United States. US officials can’t tell these countries about their citizens’ bank accounts here because the government doesn’t collect the information.
Under American law, non-U.S. citizens living outside the United States who deposit money in US banks are not subject to US taxes, and the deposits and interest don’t have to be reported. The one exception: money deposited by Canadians. Their government has a banking information exchange pact with the United States.
Mexican officials have pleaded to get the same deal that Canada has with Washington, but without luck so far.
Investigations over the past half century have uncovered many examples of Third World dictators and drug cartels laundering money through US banks. A 1999 US Senate investigation reported that Citibank (C) had had “a rogues’ gallery of private bank clients,” including two daughters of former Indonesian President Suharto, a strongman who was alleged to have looted billions of dollars from his country.
But the problem isn’t just drug lords and political grafters, Tax Notes International's Goulder says. It’s also plastic surgeons, dentists, architects and other affluent Latin Americans who are usually law-abiding citizens — except when it comes to reporting their incomes and bank balances to tax collectors.
US bankers began a concerted push in the 1970s to lure so-called hot money from a wide range of well-off Latin Americans seeking to avoid taxes in their home countries, according to James S. Henry,
a former chief economist for McKinsey & Co. and author of books and papers on offshore money.
By the mid-1980s, Henry says, his research revealed Citibank was taking more money out of developing nations than it was lending to them, and its private banking group had become its most profitable unit.
Citibank, Henry wrote, “resorted to skullduggery and the flouting of local laws all over the planet.” It sent private bankers undercover to Argentina, Venezuela and other destinations, helping to spawn thousands of shell companies and “concealing vast sums of flight capital from Third World tax authorities” while lobbying Congress to maintain “near-Swiss secrecy” for foreign depositors, Henry claims.
A Citigroup spokesman declined to comment on its private banking unit’s history in Latin America and other regions."
"Dirty money moving from Latin America to the United States isn’t a problem that has gone away. Last year, Wachovia Bank agreed to pay $160 million to settle charges that it had helped Mexican outlaws launder drug money. Wachovia, which became a unit of Wells Fargo & Co. (WFC) in 2008, acknowledged it had turned a blind eye to $13 million in deposits that had been used to purchase airplanes used by drug traffickers. Authorities seized more than 20,000 kilograms of cocaine from these aircraft, according to US prosecutors."
Diamonds in a Toothpaste Tube
As illicit cash has flowed into the United States, the IRS has worked to beat back tax havens — such as Switzerland and the Caymans — that conceal money on behalf of American citizens.
The efforts often haven’t done much to stem the flow of cash, but the IRS got a break in 2007 when Bradley Birkenfeld, a former private banker with UBS, turned whistleblower.
In court documents, Birkenfeld said that UBS bankers advised American customers to withdraw funds by using Swiss credit cards that couldn’t be traced by US authorities. On one occasion, Birkenfeld told investigators, he used funds from an American client’s Swiss account to buy diamonds and then smuggled the jewels into the United States inside a toothpaste tube.
His information helped American authorities establish that UBS maintained around 17,000 undisclosed accounts for US citizens.
In a historic breach of Swiss banking secrecy, the bank and Swiss government agreed in 2009 to turn over the names of nearly 5,000 big account holders. UBS agreed to pay a $780 million settlement to the U.S. government, admitting that it had “participated in a scheme to defraud the United States” by helping Americans hide assets from the IRS.
In 2008, as the UBS investigation was heating up, another case emerged that could have shifted some of the attention away from Switzerland and put the focus on America’s role as a tax haven.
A private banker working for JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM) had gone rogue. The bank discovered questionable transfers of money by Hernan Arbizu, a New York-based JP Morgan vice president in charge of some $200 million in Argentinian accounts. The bank sued, claiming that Arbizu had stolen money from a client’s account in order to pay off money he had taken from a customer at his old job at UBS. Federal prosecutors charged him with wire fraud.
That part of the story drew notice in the United States. But news organizations and federal officials paid less attention to the other part of the story — Arbizu’s claims that JP Morgan had helped Argentinean customers evade taxes and launder dirty money.
“I became a fraudster from the minute I started working in private banking, because if you think about it, I was committing fraud against Argentina as a whole through our activities here,” Arbizu, who fled to Argentina, told Bloomberg News in a 2009 interview.
In Argentina, the case exploded into a major scandal. One media outlet ran the headline “EL MORGANGATE” and revealed the names and deposit balances of some 200 citizens with JP Morgan accounts in the US.
JP Morgan has denied that it helps private banking clients evade taxes or commit fraud. A bank spokesman declined to comment on the Arbizu case.
Earlier this month, JP Morgan won a default judgment of nearly $3.6 million against Arbizu in the civil case. The US Justice Department declined comment on whether it was seeking to extradite Arbizu from Argentina on the criminal charges.
The Arbizu case didn’t spark calls from American policymakers for an investigation into onshore banks’ marketing to rich foreigners.
The issue isn’t a politically appealing one, given the money at stake. “I haven’t seen many American politicians wanting to take on the US as a tax haven,” Henry, the economist and offshore case expert, told iWatch News. “It’s a big source of income for this country.”
Mexican officials, though, have been raising questions about US banking secrecy.
In early 2009, Mexico’s Secretary of Finance Agustin Carstens wrote US treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner asking that the United States share data about Mexican citizens’ US accounts. Because the United States and Mexico don’t exchange information, Carstens wrote, both individual tax evaders and organized crime figures are being allowed to move their money across borders.
US Treasury officials didn’t respond to questions from iWatchNews about Mexico’s request.
The political distrust of efforts to reduce US bank secrecy can be seen in the Florida congressional delegation’s March 2 letter to Obama.
The letter says the IRS proposal to require US bankers and money managers to report interest paid to foreign depositors “would likely result in the flight of hundreds of billions of dollars from US financial institutions.” People from other countries put their money here, the lawmakers said, because their governments are unstable and they worry that if information about their bank accounts gets out, they could be left vulnerable to political terrorists or for-profit kidnappers.
“I feel sorry for hard-working people in these countries. You’re targeted,” says Sanchez, the Florida Bankers Association president. “You don’t have to be super-rich. I’m just talking about doing well.”
Blum, the former Senate investigator, counters that tax evasion is one of the causes of the political and social dangers in Latin America, not the solution.
Bottom line:
DR has a problem with corruption, but this problem of corruption extends VERY FAR into the Global system. And the USA, Europe and other BIG BOYS have a HUGE hand and STAKE in how it operates for GOOD and BAD.
Let's be a little more honest about this issue.
Hes a Cardinal in the Catholic Church!
3.6 TRILLION, eh?
There is corruption in many countries around the world,
and Dominicans are amongst the best at it.
Atabey you are just a cheerleader like little Richard.
The Cardinal makes some valid points as well, as the reasons for the drug trade are not "cut and dry", as the US wants them to be, although the "pathologically corrupt" are a big incentive.
Nobody knows what happened with the Quirino sidekicks, both military, civilian sponsors and who are the heirs of his vast drug network, and the public is entitled to know this information.
Regarding the air surveillance radar, and why the US does not provide one, (there was one in the past and the US removed it) that is the million dollar question. It is a possibility that the radar manufacturers, are pressuring the DR to buy new technology, from the national treasure?.
PS: Atabey
Instead of cut and pasting so many distracting messages, wouldn't it be better to open a forum thread?
Or is this Atabey Today?
no Escott,
I'm just trying to put things INTO PROSPECTIVE!
We Dominicans love to trash our own problems and believe that the worst of everything is Dominican. If it's baseball well AROD is the worst and on and on...
I haven't said we don't need to correct these problems in DR, only that there are FAR more important PLAYERS involved. And these players have a far greater hand in this business than many people want to acknowledge. :)
PS: Atabey
Instead of cut and pasting so many distracting messages, wouldn't it be better to open a forum thread?
I believe that the article is very apropos for the discussion as it makes the case that with 3.6 TRILLION DOLLARS at stake, the USA, among other major players, actually promotes the very corrupt practices that have led to this problem in Latin America, and in our country, the DR.
But I'll post it on the Forum section so that we can expand on the matter. Thanks
P.S.
Don't you find it interesting that the USA allows Canada to have access to this information but withholds it from Mexico and the rest of Latin America?
I agree, but this daily news section is designed for current opinions, not cut and paste of competing news articles.
PS: Others do this also, but it just dilutes and distracts the conversation.
Thanks for your understanding and civility.
1...Corruption and Rent Seeking...Lambsdorff
2...Discretionary Power, Rent Seeking, and Corruption....Enrico Colombatto
in economic terms , rent is the income that an asset earns over and above what it would earn in the next best alternative application. Mike Tyson earns 20 million dollars for knocking out an opponent. if he did not have that rare talent, he would probably be packing groceries in a supermarket. the rent that can be attributed to his earnings is 20 million, minus, perhaps, 30,000 per year
The DR government is more open in it's dealings and show no restraint and contempt in how they openly loot the public coffers...
As far as the drug problem the DR government will look to play ball and hand over the very obvious cases and those patsies not playing the Governments game.. Otherwise the money will stop coming from the USA and other sources of cash to also line their pockets with...
Brother Louv Dready,
Do yourself a favor and check out the sky-line in Miami, Florida. You might be surprised how that sky-line got built. Check out The Cocaine Cowboys, a documentary on the impact of the drug trade in Miami.
Also, the slave trade, the Opium Trade, booze, etc., have all made many a great fortune for the US, Europe and others.
Even a certain Prime Minister in jolly JAmaica stated that the ganga trade was a crucial part of Jamaica economic stability. Seaga, remember him?
Can anyone tell me why the countries with the greatest proportion of Catholics have the highest level of crime and corruption?
Why don't you ask your English speaking African brothers that question?
I have asked but they don't know. Most Dominicans I know don't know about other countries, except maybe Washington Heights and that's not really America.
How about the Lower East Side and a visit to Katz's Deli?
I am taking about asking your brothers from former British colonies, those colonies that were not massively populated with European people and where the local natives were able to survive. i.e. Ghana, Kenya, Liberia, Malawi, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe...
As far as I know in these countries the number of Catholics is not high, but crime and corruption are. Maybe your English speaking brothers can give you a better perspective.
Dready,
Do yourself a favor and check out the sky-line in Miami, Florida. You might be surprised how that sky-line got built. Check out The Cocain Cowboys, a documentary on the impact of the drug trade in Miami.
Atabey, when i was spending time in Miami, you had never heard of the USA.
Africa is the only continent I have not stayed in so I have no direct knowledge, experience or friends there. Still I would like to go - I seen to have a penchant for dangerous places. However i did meet Robert Mugabe briefly when he came to Australia many years ago - he was a hero of the new Africa in those days. Now the only place he's welcome (in European countries at least) is the Vatican.
Certainly the percentage of Roman Catholics per-se are not high in the countries you mentioned, however countries like Zambia and Zimbabwe are predominantly Christian, which is based on the Catholic tradition.
It is interesting to note the current wave of torture of children in Nigeria, accused of witchcraft by Christian clergy, reminiscent of the golden era of the Catholic Church, the Dark Ages.
So what is your point?
"The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.
His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him - Mount Zion Lighthouse.
A month later, he died."
From: United States
instructs Atabey
Dready,
Do yourself a favor and check out the sky-line in Miami, Florida. You might be surprised how that sky-line got built. Check out The Cocaine Cowboys, a documentary on the impact of the drug trade in Miami.
Atabey, when i was spending time in Miami, you had never heard of the USA."
I hope you were not looking behind bars. Were you down with Brother Keith Gordon AKA
You are absolutely correct.
The heyday of Christian atrocities was in the Catholic instigated Dark Ages in Europe, and spilling over into the European colonies. However their atrocities continue today, be it it to a lesser extent in 1st world countries. For example Adolf Hitler, a darling of the Vatican and a devout Catholic, drew some of his inspiration from the Holy Bible.
However Islam is rising faster than Christianity is dying out, and will eventually plunge not just Europe and the former colonies, but the entire world into a new, probably even deeper and more horrific Dark Ages.
God is Great.
I can say I have spoken to a number of my "brothers from former British colonies, those colonies that were not massively populated with European people and where the local natives were able to survive" - Australian Aborigines - in the cities as well as very remote traditional areas.
They were actually approaching extinction, until British settlement. Now their numbers have increased exponentially since then, however they are still extremely violent, particularly to each other and especially their women and children, and with many living in absolute squalor.
So what do they say the reason is? Despite massive funding in welfare, we don't give them enough money, and we committed the atrocity of trying to educate them, improve their health and rescue their abandoned or abused children.
However the overall rate of crime, corruption and violence in the country is low, as is religious faith.
However the overall rate of crime, corruption and violence in this country is also low, as is religious faith.
In terms of crime and corroption, what makes Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Kenya or Jamaica different from Australia, New Zealand, United States or Canada? They are all former British colonies... How religious people is? or how Christian people is?
Why is Uruguay or Chile less violent and corrupt than Bolivia, Peru, DR or Mexico?
What's your point?
Here is the answer to your question:
EDUCATION... Repeat with me EDUCATION.
Now how come some of these former colonies realized that Education was the way to go?
Most of the inhabitants of todays less violent and corrupt societies came from EUROPE which was already a developed society when the natives of these lands were still trying to figure out how lit a fire.
The more Europeans the less violent and corrupt, if you have more natives in the soup then you have a different result.
You may have a point.
Before European settlement, (with the exception of those in the extreme north), Aborigines had been cut off from the rest of humanity for about 30,000 years. They missed out on the evolution from being hunter-gathers to having permanent dwellings, growing crops, storing grain, domesticating animals and having a written language. Like no other race on Earth, remained literally, in the stone-age. Children were children of the tribe. They did not have nuclear families as such, and did not even know there was a connection between sex and pregnancy.
Had Australia been settled by the Spanish or the Portuguese Catholics, (rather than British Protestants) they probably would have been exterminated, as they were unsuitable for slavery.
New Zealand Maoris were happy to sign the Treaty of Waitangi as it provided protection from each other, by British soldiers.
EDUCATION... Repeat with me EDUCATION. educate me to bow down to your god.... force me to give you my gold, land and food...... educate me to forget how my ancestors lived, our customs and way of life before you killed, enslaved and destroyed all before you....
The more Europeans the less violent and corrupt
does that exclude the 100 years war, the 30 years war, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, World Wars 1 and 2, the Holocaust, the TransAtlantic Slave Trade, and other such exemplars of pacificism?
So the conquistadors should have finished the job better???
Unfortunately the majority of our people still think and act like if they were living in the dark ages (Medieval period). It takes thousands of years to form a developed society, education is the only way to accelerate this process. It has taken eons of years to develop the societies that we all admire today. The truth hurts, the majority of our people are just aborigines driving cars that someone else designed and manufactures, using a phone that we do not know how it works, and using technology that we don't have a clue how it functions and what capacities it has.
We have three options if we want to live in a less violent and corrupt society:
Eduacate our kids, fill our country with Europeans, Japanese etc...or move out of the country. Plain and simple.
" the majority of our people are just aborigines driving cars that someone else designed and manufactured"
True but I would go further than that. No one alive, or even a team, company or country, designed and manufactured a car from scratch. Cars, and manufacturing technologies, have evolved over a number of generations. This knowledge has been past down through the ages, evolving with changes in desires and expectations, building on what has gone before. We are still almost the same animals we were 20,000 years ago - we have not evolved much in that time, only civilization has evolved enormously, at an ever increasing rate. We are still selfish, superstitious, silly animals underneath.
The sooner we realize this the sooner we can shape civilization to mankind's benefit.
Whilst I agree with you on DR having too many ignorant people, I totally disagree with you on that it takes "thousands of years" to create a civilized society.
Yes, it will not happen overnight nor in a few decades time, but its structure can be significantly advanced in two to three generations WITH GOOD GOVERNANCE. Unfortunately for us Dominicans, good governance has NOT been the case throughout our bitter and tragic history. Still there are signs that things are not as bad as before. The modernization process has not been as robust and sustained in all the areas we agree need attention, like education, but movement even in that embattled task is seeing signs of improvement. With more targeted attention, more intelligent investments and good management, we might yet see the end of the tunnel on that perennial problem in a few decades. But it will not be an easy task, nor will correcting the myriad of other social and economic issues that confront DR.
Where I am, it doesn't talk, it shouts, screams and thumps, at maximum volume, +8 dB bass boost below 500 Hz, maximum distortion that hurtz the ears and numbs the brain.
(and they call it "music"!)