From: United States
I've been saying all along: what does the Dominican gov't, the international community and NGO's think 2 million plus illegal, undocumented Haitians are going to do to survive in an economy that is forcing poor Dominicans to risk their lives by crossing the Mona Passage to emigrate illegally to Puerto Rico? They are going to turn to crime. Expect more theft, robberies, burglaries, drug dealing, and consequently drug addicts to increase. In my beautiful Santiago de Los Caballeros of all places. Que barbaridad! The ridiculous merry-go- round continues. Let's see what kind of Cojones Danilo has.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Aug 2012 8:19 AM
From: United States, NYC
venganzaderafael,
Unless the leadership in DR gets serious & ORGANIZED, this problem will continue to fester and bring difficult days ahead. I can't for the life of me understand why it's SO damned difficult for the leadership to get hand on this issue.
Yes, it's true that DR depends on cheap Haitian labor, especially in the agricultural sector to stay competitive. And yes, there are many hard working and decent Haitian workers in DR. However, even a free trade agreement can function between two nations without the enormous illegal flows that we witness happening in the Haitian-DR case. We can have excellent economic relations & country to country relationship without this enormous illegal flow. But in order for this to happen, both sides need to be ORGANIZED & respect each others borders and laws. The breakdown in law on both sides of the island has facilitated these difficult days & much harder ones to come. Only getting back to a law abiding posture will help'
Written by: Atabey, 1 Aug 2012 8:34 AM
From: United States, NYC
Danilo has to thread carefully because the Haitian Question has a very International Clientele at its apex. We aren't sure what the behind the scene agreements and negotiations are and it's not at all clear what has been negotiated. But it certainly appears that DR is just paying lip service to any serious border control regime. And certainly paying lip service to any serious attempt to reverse significantly the migratory flows of recent times, say 10 years to this date.
From: United States, Vivir sin Patria, es lo mismo que vivir sin Honor.
If we want measures to be implemented then this is certainly the right way to go, communities have to organize and demand that the government enforce law and order in the streets. I just don't think that Danilo has the guts and stance to face this issue, there are very powerful international entities preventing action, I say if Mr. Medina wants to make things right, then to hell with them, we have to do what is right for our nation..
From: United States, New York City
I'd hate to judge a book by its cover buuut...my impression of Medina is that he comes across as weak willed. He is not going to do much to change any of the status quos in DR. In fact I suspect that problems such as illegal Haitian immigration will only get worse under him.
From: Iceland, Haitians out of DR.
Afuera todos!!
Great movement by by them!
Written by: danny00, 1 Aug 2012 9:13 AM
From: United States, syosset, key west, santo domingo AND NOW THE GLOBE TROTTER
i was on vacation in south africa a few weeks ago.
for what i saw was
cape town is is a great place to vist,
but for many others in africa most blacks when taken as slaves from there own country had it better then they do have it now.
most live in grass huts and most have aids and not much of a chance to live a long or normal life.
Written by: generoso, 1 Aug 2012 9:33 AM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
As forecasted by many, the unwanted, "bottom of the barrel" Haitian illegals, are being carried sometimes by dump trucks (yes you read right), into our territory with no documents whatsoever, as a method of "poverty dumping" into the DR of Haiti's more desperate citizens.
Since the DR government is powerless, even in a transition period, where many conflictive measures are enacted, the empowered citizens are taking matters in their own hands.
Again as predicted, the same DR civilian militia that sent the invading hordes of Haitians, back to their wasteland in the 19 TH century, will rise up and send these marauding trespassers, running back to their side of the island.
Written by: Lopez31, 1 Aug 2012 9:35 AM
From: United States
We need a comprehensive immigration policy and the current government is not up to the task. It's the same story accross the world.
To blame illigal Haitians for most of the crimes that are committed is ridiculous. Most of the crimes are committed by Dominicans.
From: United States, Brooklyn
Deport them ALL NOW
Written by: generoso, 1 Aug 2012 9:44 AM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Lopez31
And the documentation or statistics to support your claim? Other than speculation or hearsay.
FYI the people that live in these neighborhoods know very well, all their neighbors and inhabitants, since it is a closed circle, and they KNOW with pin point accuracy who are the felons committing the crimes in their vecindario.
The surge in Haitian illegal immigrants, specially in Santiago is unacceptable and can not and will not be tolerated. Whether they contribute to the upsurge in criminal activities in these areas is beside the point, they surely do not bring anything good, except disease, homelessness, pollution, unsanitary conditions, public loitering and begging, and squatters in private and public lands.
Written by: riosm, 1 Aug 2012 10:02 AM
From: United States
I agree the Dominican Gov. must do something about illegal immigration and quick. Question is when will the Gov. act.
From: Dominican Republic, NEVER FORGOTTEN, NEVER FORSAKEN!
Our authorities are letting it become another Haiti, and our citizens have to come out and do this?
THAT'S A SHAME.
From: United States
Political leaders in Santiago are silent. They have not come out and said one word.What are they waiting for ?
In fact they don't need to say one word, they only need to act, that will be sufficient, but they must act NOW !!!!
From: United States
more bizarre rubbish from the colmado economist
Yes, it's true that DR depends on cheap Haitian labor, especially in the agricultural sector to stay competitive.
competitive with whom? actually, Professor, the agricultural products which require labor intensive modalities are the exact ones in which the DR is not competitive, such as sugar , and rice. staying competitive? is it currently competitive in traditional agricultural products?
From: United States
poor Atabey likes to throw around his half baked ideas about ¨competitiveness¨, like a manhole cover. strangely, he is the same guy who advocates trade agreements with partners like the USA, and the EU. let me give you a simple understanding about this far fetched idea. in the negotiations for DRCAFTA, every country was allowed one product which would be protected by tariffs. the central american countries chose white maize, a product central to the food security and economy of those countries. i am not aware what the DR chose. that choice gave them a SINGLE line item exclusion to the tariff reductions. guess what the USA chose? SUGAR!! not as a raw material, but also derivatives of sugar, and even products with high sugar content. so, the USA ended up with FORTY SEVEN line item exceptions!!! how can you compete in that environment?so, you can bring the entire population of Haiti to the DR to cut cane at slave rates, and still not be ¨competitive¨.
Written by: Lopez31, 1 Aug 2012 10:51 AM
From: United States
Generoso states
"they surely do not bring anything good, except disease, homelessness, pollution, unsanitary conditions, public loitering and begging, and squatters in private and public lands."
How about cheap labor which in turn influx the domincan economy with millions, if not billions.
Look, i'm not here to defend illigal Haitian immigration. I too would like to see an comprehensive immigration policy but let's be realistic our government is tied by international regulations. Again, blaming haitians for everything that is wrong with our country is STUPID. I see it as an excuse to hide our (us dominicans) shortcomings, and there are plenty.
Written by: juanb, 1 Aug 2012 10:54 AM
From: Dominican Republic
To blame illigal Haitians for most of the crimes that are committed is ridiculous. Most of the crimes are committed by Dominicans.
From: United States
I do not think Haitians are the cause of crime in the DR. But let us re-read and better understand the article folks and perhaps some of us will get an improve grade in reading comprehension.
The article is referring to specific neighborhoods in Santiago. The locals want them out because a group of Haitians are responsible for the increase in crime. If you get rid of Haitian squalor it is likely safety will also improve.
When people react it is because they can not take it anymore, fed up with government failure to act and if they do nothing, vigilante groups will take justice into their own hands. This is just and simply a warning of what might be coming up ahead if this problem is not adquately resolved.
From: United States
the haitian the haitian the haitian that is the dominican problem.
the mexican the mexican the mexican that is the us problem
the chinese the chinese the chinese is the problem. how about you people taking fault for your problems and stop blaming other people
Written by: generoso, 1 Aug 2012 12:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Lopez31
The cheap labor argument is a poisoned gift that only benefits the sugar, construction and agricultural barons, that reap huge profits, postpone and procrastinate the urgent need to mechanize DR agriculture, just as Brasil, and even Cuba have done.
To exploit Haitian labor, brings about many undesirable consequences to the country, and lowers even further, the standards of living of the poorest Dominicans, forcing them to crime or even to desperate and dangerous, cross ocean illegal migration.
From: United States, New York City
Illegal Haitian labor adversely affects the poorest of Dominicans. Fact. This is not a race issue. There would be an uproar if over a million of Afghanistans' poorest were roaming the nation in search of sustenance with no oversight ...you can believe that.
From: United States
Bravo generoso
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
Seriously, how much would cost to build a concrete wall (3m H x 1m W x 300,000 m L)? Can the DR afford it? Can we ask South Korea to assist? they have built an impenetrable border wall that has kept their land protected from their communists neighbors.
Seriously is this a feasible or achiveable project? I do not see the way the DR will be able to control illegal immigration without a border wall.
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
Even in a nature a parasite serve a purpose, as long as this abundance of cheap labor is in the interest of big business nothing will change. Yes keep blaming the poor Haitians for all of Dominican society ills, I understand for its easier to blame others for your short comings than to look in the mirror. The cheap labor source from Haiti was something that was factor into your economic development plain, it's call globalization get used to it.
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
PatD,
The issue here is that every time the DR tries to look in the mirror, Haiti is also there cheek to cheek. I think the DR needs to get the house organized. Once the backyard fence is up, then the DR can choose who should stay and who should leave.
From: United States
Pat , i have mixed feelings on this matter. the illegal immigration cannot continue, or, in 20 years, there will be no Dominican Republic, as we know it. however, when you have an economic plan that is based on virtual slave labor, then you invite the problems. the Metro was built as a government project. everyone i speak to tell me that most of the heavy lifting was done by Haitians. so, there is government complicity in this matter of hiring illegal immigrant labor, for cost saving reasons. you cannot have it both ways. you cannot have them dig the tunnels, then get upset when they ride the train.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Aug 2012 1:24 PM
From: United States, NYC
The Jamaican Dready barks, blah, blah blah.
Why don't you busy yourself with the on-goings in your J in regards to how they treat their illegal population flows?
;)
------------------------
As for the use of Haitian labor, Again, it can be used and STILL HAVE STRONG MIGRATORY CONTROLS IN PLACE. Its use does not exclude strong border controls, nor following the law that stipulates what % of foreign labor can be used in different sectors.
Strong documentation with real penalties for both individuals and companies that break the laws. In other words, a real legal regime will provide that best protection for all in this matter. What is happening looks and feels like a Great Poverty Dumping Policy Initiative by the state and nation of Haiti unto the Dominican Republic.
Many here have noted such development, especially since the tragedy of Jan 2010.
Written by: josean, 1 Aug 2012 1:26 PM
From: United States, Fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia; Guillermo Moreno President 2016
To paraphrase Bill Clinton’s Campaign slogan it’s the “Economies Stupid."
This is simply and issue of Supply and Demand; our “economic model” demands Super Cheap Labor and Haiti is able to supply Super Large Numbers of it.
The disparity in economic development of both countries accounts for this phenomenon, as it Does between Mexico and the US, juxtaposed to Canada and the US who have more symmetrical economies, thus no “hordes” of Canadian illegals crossing the border to the US.
I would think that it would behoove all Dominicans and Haitians to DEMAND from the international community (especially the US and France) True economic development plans for a sustainable economic model for Haiti that would incentives the Haitian to remain home and create more consumers for Dominican products, Haiti being one of our main trading partners.
continued:
Written by: josean, 1 Aug 2012 1:27 PM
From: United States, Fighting the Dictatorship of the Narco PLD Mafia; Guillermo Moreno President 2016
I will get off my pre-GED soap box and allow Dr. Dread to EDUCATE us all on this topic without the xenophobic, nationalistic, racist rhetorical arguments and present us with the Inconvenient Truth of Economic Reality.
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
DR needs to find a balance.
I believe the DR can provide legal jobs to 300K haitians or probably a little more, and if these legal immigrants wish to set root in the country they can do so following the laws and rules. But an uncontrolled illegal immigration is simply not sustainable. If in deed there are one million plus haitians in the DR, someone else in the world needs to take a share of that human load.
How much would cost to build a border wall?...That is the first step.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Aug 2012 1:36 PM
From: United States, NYC
perlurdom,
What you state, "If in deed there are one million plus haitians in the DR, someone else in the world needs to take a share of that human load." I've stated many times before: The Haitian Question needs an international solution. DR can not be expected to fill that Enormous Void. Too many needs and too much desperation on top of an ancient and intractable feud between the enormous underclass and the tiny elite class in Haiti.
Couple the huge problems still facing many lower class Dominicans-lack of schools, decent housing, reliable water & electricity, etc.,- the DR has its own set of huge problems to negotiate.
So other nations in the Americas and Africa should help. Let each nation in the Americas take in a minimum 2,000 Haitians per year, with the largest, USA (50K), Brazil, Mexico taking in say 10,000 a piece and the African nations taking in equivalent totals and over say 10-20 years the Haitian Question will be solved. Europe to finance expenses
Written by: Atabey, 1 Aug 2012 1:48 PM
From: United States, NYC
in Latin America and Africa. A small stipend for a few years to help them gain a foot-hold. :)
I was reading not too long ago how a powerful organization was urging Europe to adopt more migratory friendly measures given that Europe's population was rapidly aging; so Haitians can also go to Europe and give them some spice to go with the rice-that's for you Josean :)
Written by: cocoa, 1 Aug 2012 2:03 PM
From: Ecuador
dominicans are always blaming the haitians for crime .yes they bring more crime to dominican republic add to it yes.Not all crimes are commited by haitians.The tourism in dominican republic will suffer if something is not done about this..Example:a friend was robbed in dominican and not by haitian it was by dominicans..Stop blaming all on haitians like anyone else in the world there is good and bad .Alot of dominicans are really racist i heard alot of them cutting down the haitians.Ridiculous.
From: Dominican Republic, I dislike all politicians and their afiliated parties... "I simply say it AS IT IS!!"
Well Dominicans are responsible for letting that happen. If society does not do anything about it then they will be unloading all kinds of Haitians down your throats. Therefore making the country poorer, more stupid, hungrier, less educated, and more of everything going on today.
DR will never rise from the bottom as long as it has such burden pulling her down to the ground. Polititians know this and the world knows it as well. They don't simply care.
So it's up to society to make the next move. Otherwise, DR will be worse in a couple of years than what it is today!!
From: United States, Bay Area, CA - (Dei sitio)
If there was a big wall along the border with controlled access gates to allow legal trade and controlled traffic of people in and out, we wouldn't be speaking about all these issues.
The people should be protesting for the constuction of border wall not demanding the expulsion of the illegal foreigners. If the illegals are sent back to their home country today, they will be back to the barrio in a week.
From: United States, Earth
Haitians are no more "marauding invaders" as generoso labels them than the illegal Dominicans in the US are. Protesting out frustration is one thing, but actually fixing the problem is another. Generoso appears to not mention the fact that thousands of Haitians literally pay their way in the Country. And just guess who is letting them in?? Dominicans. The massive Haitian presence in the Dominican Republic IS a problem, nobody is disputing that. But it is not fair, reasonable nor realistic to think that ridding Haitians of the barrios (or the entire Country) will fix the ills of society. People have to stop being so arroused when it comes to protesting and so misinformed and downright clueless when it comes to actually correct the issue. What the point of filling a dump truck with Haitians and shipping them out when there is another one shipping them IN?!?! But if those people like the idea of the "Haitian" boogie man, corruption, hate and ignorance will continue to flourish.
Written by: vacanos, 1 Aug 2012 3:37 PM
From: United States, An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
I have been saying here for the longest. The Santiago I knew and grew up is a shelf of what it was. I think Santiaguero or Cibaeños will be the ground zero in fighting this Fusion's conspiracy. if the entire country become more and more complacement with this notion of creating one country we will try to break apart first. If the NGO, French, Canada, UK, USA, UN come up victorious in creating a fusion in DR; They will have to beat us first as we will be their the last line of defense. Thrughout our history we has been always suspicious of every one of their movement and on the look out as we NEVER FORGET. Most of us know our history and as a kid I remember the saying of the Haitians as they believe that from "El Puente Seco" of Santiago on belong to them.
Written by: vacanos, 1 Aug 2012 3:50 PM
From: United States, An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Bernardjean "Haitians are no more "marauding invaders" as generoso labels them than the illegal Dominicans in the US are."
No it doesn't? Those Dominican pest breaking immigration law from other country is very small number. Most Dominican in the US are legal. Haiti is exporting their backward mentality people throughout the world. We take the biggest wrath over 3 Millions plus and counting each passing day.
Written by: generoso, 1 Aug 2012 4:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
BJP
Marauding trespassers was the correct term used, "marauding invaders" was more applicable to the six armed 19 TH century invasions, that Dominicans fought and won against the Haitians.
"Paying your way" by bribing a poor and underpaid "guardia" is not the same, as arriving in DR with a legal visa, and procuring a residency card and work permit if applicable.
Don't try to water down things, by intending to shift the blame of the illegals, to the corrupt Dominicans, that allow the undocumented and paperless Haitians in for a bribe.
It is reasonable for citizens to take matters into their own hands, and declare these trouble making illegals "personna's non grata".
Dominicans can't wait any more for the DR government to repatriate these illegals, and the public demonstrations should continue unabashed.
Haitians go home! Haitianne ale lakay ou!
From: United States, New York City
There have ALWAYS been Haitians in D R. Twenty years ago protests like this wouldve been unheard of. Why? Because the it wasnt an uncontrollable avalance like it is now. The populace is showing legitimate concern but some of you would have them shut up and not have a say as big business with government complicity sells them out to the cheap labor next door. Please. These people are going about things the right way, voicing their concerns the way citizens of a democracy ought to, through protest. I applaud them.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Aug 2012 4:24 PM
From: United States, NYC
Dominicans, especially those in leadership positions bear some responsibility for this reprehensible lack of clarity & lack of enforcement/ disorganization. I accept that part of the equation. But the equation has several more important variables & these include the Haitian role in this human debacle. BernardJeanPierre, cocoa, PatDiamond, Le Dready, Josean are ever so aroused when Dominicans speak out against the problems caused by such a misguided "policy" on the overall Dominican Republic. Yet seldom, if ever, will you see these individuals show even 1/10th the energy when referring to the leadership groups in Haiti that have produced these outward human flows of misery. Yes, it's true that there are Dominicans who wrongly tend to just look at these problems as 100% coming from Haiti; but there are many more on the opposite side that choose to see the wrongs of Dominicans & be blind or pay lip service to what has caused these great human tragedies in the first place.
From: United States, New York City
Evolved isnt the word I would use. My position has certainly changed on the issue over the last few years. I didnt realize its severity because it seemed rather sublime in the beginning to me seeing as how there have always been Haitians in DR. But after subsequent visits Ive realized that my initial assesment was wrong and that many of you who have seen this problem coming down the pipe were right. There are campos in the Cibao where no campesino can get agricultural work for decent compensation because there now exists a proliferation of cheap Haitian labor that big and mid sized land owners in the interior are now exploiting. This is the death knell of the campesinos' way of life in the interior as we know it. A similiar situation exists in the cities. It cannot be sustained. There has to be some type of sustained migratory control.
From: United States, California
At least 80% of the atracos and killings that takes place in the DR are committed by Dominicans not Haitians, but we wont admitted. The Dominicans criminals that get deported from the US are to blame. However I do agree that we have an illegal Haitians problem, but to blame them for the crimes that take place in the DR is crazy.
Written by: Edwin514, 1 Aug 2012 4:38 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Just a thought but those wishing for a huge wall on the border:
Who's actually going to build it? that's right.. you guessed it
which is why that idea will most likely never come to fruition. It's cheaper to pay a Haitian in tostones than to pay a Dominican in pesos.
What we are seeing are the side effects of desperation and I don't see it going away on either side of the island anytime soon.
BTW, not to bash Martelly, but what has he been doing so far? if someone can fill me in...
Rome wasn'tt built in a day but the Haitian government has a huge role in this and needs to get its act together.
Written by: generoso, 1 Aug 2012 4:59 PM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Edwin514
Dominicans will build the wall!
Also students, volunteers, lazy do nothing military, prisoners doing time, and Haitian legal residents of DR with work visas.
Mechanization as well, build the wall with prefabricated structures.
Written by: Edwin514, 1 Aug 2012 6:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Generoso
lets be realistic, do you think all of them will stop playing dominoes and hanging at the colmado to build a 195-mile long wall under the hot tropical sun? Do you honestly believe construction bosses will give up their greed overnight? and after all, it benefits them the most to hire cheap haitian labor to do it (who obviously won't) than to hire dominicans, knowing they'll have to pay them more.
btw you can forget about the prisoners helping; they'll just escape or "mysteriously disappear"
Written by: generoso, 1 Aug 2012 7:59 PM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Edwin514
Patriotism has no monetary value. Dominicans will be proud to build the wall.
The numbers of Haitians is what matters. DR can handle and employ 350K to 500K Haitians, all legal residents if there is work for them, and they pay their taxes.
The rest is the problem, it is like water rising to the top of the glass, and if it keeps coming in, soon it will spill over, and there will be a flood.
The flood of high numbers of Haitians "tourists" that are abusing the RD's hospitality, must be repatriated, and the Haitians should also understand the message, and go home.
Written by: Lautaro, 1 Aug 2012 8:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Nothing can kill tourism more quickly than hordes upon hordes of destitute people harassing tourists at every turn, so the time is fast approaching for the elites/government here to choose between their love for cheap labour/plantation slavery, or the dollars that this country keeps receiving from tourism despite all its flaws. Unless of course the plan of action from now on involves keeping the tourists safely tucked inside the all-inclusives, and hire armed escorts for any of their party that dared to venture outside...
From: United States
"The flood of high numbers of Haitians "tourists" that are abusing the RD's hospitality, must be repatriated, and the Haitians should also understand the message, and go home."
E'pa fueran que van............!!!!!
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
@Dread-I agree with you the The migration issue most be resolve, but bear in mind as long as the decision makers are in debt to those who can bribe them ( excuse me lobby them nothing will change) The best hope is Haiti's economic development.
BTW according to the Economist this year Jamaica is lagging behind Haiti in term of economic growth hard to believe but true.
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Bueno, cuando el pueblo se toma la justicia en sus manos es cuando se sienten desprotegidos y eso es muy peligroso, pues se pueden desbordar las pasiones y eso precisamente es lo que buscan los integracionista de "una unica e indivisible", Los excesos no son buenos, lo que se debe exigir es a las autoridades que juran defender la independencia y la integridad territorial, cumplir y hacer cumplir las leyes, sin necesariamente violarles a nadie sus derechos, al fin y al cabo son seres humanos desgraciados victimas de abusos ancestrales. pero que no es a la republica dominicana la que le corresponde cargar ese fardo tan pesado.
Amigos hablan de hacer un muro, del 1937 hasta el 1961 no habia muro y se respetaba la frontera, solamente eliminado la corrupcion militar y de funcionarios encargados de hacer cumplir las leyes y otorgandoles recursos para vivir dignamente a los soldados encargados de vigilar la frontera y eso si castigando severamente las violacioneS. ELIMINAR LA CORRUPCION
Written by: Lautaro, 2 Aug 2012 12:16 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Regrettably, my friend Tonto, it seems that in order to eliminate corruption we will need another Colonel that marries himself with glory, cuz' it's doubtful we will get that from the current parties and the so called "civil society". ¿De donde surgirá tal Moisés para dirigir a este pueblo que clama por un redentor?
From: United States, Earth
@generoso - I know that there are far more illegal Haitians in the Dominican Republic than there are illegal Dominicans in the states. However, the point remains that if Haitians are "invaders" the same can be said of Dominicans in the US. Personally I enjoy seeing a mixture of culture and peoples. But the American equivalent of people like yourself view Dominicans just like they view Mexicans, and anybody else who doesn't fit the bill of their ignorant and idealist American standard. We ALL know that immigration issue is a problem with many victims, Dominicans included. But your comments reveal the same bias and prejudices of the same type of radical, patriotic extremist Americans who would call YOU the exact same thing you call Haitians. All the Governments have to work together to solve this issue. It will take time. But instigating conflict due to the lazy and corrupt government will only cause more problems. Stop corrupt border guards and half the battle is won.
Written by: Lautaro, 2 Aug 2012 12:36 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
"However, the point remains that if Haitians are "invaders" the same can be said of Dominicans in the US"
Only if the tri-state area were to be an independent country or we were talking about Puerto Rico, cuz' in the other states Dominican presence is close to nil. The only way the Haitian case would be similar would be if the Haitian presence here were to be limited to the San Pedro sugar mills or the fishermen's villages of the Samaná province, like it used to be in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
When talking about the Puerto Rico case, it's noteworthy the fact that, as small as that island is, one can give oneself the luxury of not seeing a single Dominican face in some municipalities, the inmigrants concentrating themselves in San Juan and nearby municipalities.
From: United States
Every time I read people making comparisons that Dominican or Mexican immigration to the US is equivalent to Haitians in the DR, simply tells me they don't really know what they are talking about and clearly displays complete ignorance or perhaps better stated a total lack of in-depth knowledge of the implications it has for the DR.
And I wish they would please stop pulling the race card for Christ Sake when ever the undocumented issue comes up. They know quite well this is not racial but rather of preserving our Sovereignty. We already lost thousands of miles of territory to Haiti and they are still coming back for more. Enough is Enough...........
Written by: jasfalon, 2 Aug 2012 5:44 AM
From: United States
Who'll do the hard work in the hot sun, for basically nothing, that Dominicans won't do? NOBODY
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
La justificacion de quien va hacer el trabajo bajo el sol es tonta, la haran los dominicanos, pues lo hacen los haitianos por el bajo salario que cobran y les pagan empresarios abusadores que crean conflictos al pueblo dominicano, asi recuperaran sus empleos los dominicanos que ocupan los haitianos ahora, SIMPLEMENTE ESO.
The justification of who will do the job under the sun is silly, the Dominicans will make, as do the Haitians by the low wages paid and pay them abusive employers that create conflicts the Dominican people, so the Dominicans regain their jobs they occupy Haitians now, JUST THAT.
From: United States
@jasfalon-Who'll do the hard work in the hot sun, for basically nothing, that Dominicans won't do? NOBODY"
WRONG...............!!!!!
Who will it be then ? Who do you think ?
The same people who performed the same low wage jobs before the Haitians came, will be the same ones who will do the same.
Do you get it or do I need say more ?
Written by: generoso, 2 Aug 2012 10:43 AM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
The issues here are illegal Haitians unwanted presence in the DR, not Dominican illegals in the US.
I will not be drawn into debating arguments that are just a distraction, from a tired menu, often used, to try to change the subject matter, by professional pro Haitian-DR unification spin doctors.
The Dominican glass is full of illegal Haitians, and Dominicans are shouting BASTA YA!
The DR is not the solution to Haitian problems, illegal trespassing must be reversed, and illegals repatriated soon, the proud DR citizens will resist and repel this invasion.
From: United States, California
@PatDiamond---you said best. I've always said this too """The best hope is Haiti's economic development"" I guarantee you if you ask every Haitian in the DR weather they would go back home if they had jobs they would say YES. I can only imagine what's going on in a Haitian’s mind as he thinking about crossing the border.
Choices.
1---Stay in Haiti and eat sh$%t
2---Cross the boder and be treated like sh$%t
Written by: generoso, 2 Aug 2012 12:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Dream on, about Haiti getting it's sh$%t together. It hasn't happen in over 200 plus years, because of the Haitians ATTITUDE.
They have been the worst neighbors in the world, the worst managers of their own country, the worst and most reckless dictatorships, the worst diplomats and politicians isolating themselves as a by-product, the worse conquerors and war mongers, the most corrupt and greedy public officials, and the most brutal humans.
From: United States, Dame LUZ..24/7 and everyone will progress!
It's official the DR boarder is for sale!!!
Who's making $$ the same DR officials watching the boarder, start sweeping house there, and than deal with the truck owners that bring them into DR. Haitians are not walking or biking into the country right?
From: United States, New York City
"Intelligence Study Links Low I.Q. To Prejudice, Racism, Conservatism"
Aren't you the same person that comes on here stating that he hates all Dominicans and that all Dominicans are his enemy? Ironic that you would post such a study.
From: United States
lol.............lmao
Written by: generoso, 2 Aug 2012 5:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic, United States
Ciby & guille
Question: How many Haitians does it take to screw a lightbulb up in the ceiling?
Answer: Six, one to hold the bulb and 5 to spin him around.
(joke)lol.
Written by: riosm, 2 Aug 2012 5:50 PM
From: United States
Santiago has become the hub city of "no woman turned away" with free health services including pregnant Haitian women.
Does any one know the number of Haitian women giving birth in Santiago vs. the whole country ?
Written by: DomRat, 2 Aug 2012 8:26 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Perlurdom, do you want me to calculate that wall done with Dominican labor or Haitian labor. Seriously, if you don't like the disorderly, pell mell, influx of Haitians (and I don't), then DO NOT HIRE Haitians or patronize places that appear to have a large Haitian labor pool. The Haitians have an otherwise admirable tendency, they like to trade among themselves. A peso gained by a Haitian will be to as large an extent as possible circulated among other Haitians, thus increasing the chances of more coming here.
Written by: riosm, 3 Aug 2012 12:20 AM
From: United States
Spinach
Trust me we understand it's something in the cookies....even in Ca na da your kind is not respected.
Written by: ROMYP, 10 Aug 2012 11:56 AM
From: Netherlands, AMSTERDAM
HAITIAN are to blame for crime in DR, that's crazy! HAITIAN don't cross the border, They are still living in the same land, HAITI, QUISQUEYA, BOYO... HAITIAN ARE HARD HONEST WORKERS. DOMINICAN ARE FAMOUS FOR THIEF EVERYWHERE THEY GO. KEEP THAT ONE FOR YOU, DON'T LABEL IT ON HAITIAN.
Written by: riosm, 10 Aug 2012 12:52 PM
From: United States
ROMYP
True many Haitian's cross the border into the DR for work and a better life but consider....illegal Haitian's are depleading the DR's very limited resources.
The DR Gov. has ignored the problem for way too long turned CRISIS with no end in sight. The Haitian Gov. is part of the problem also.
The DR and Haitian Gov. should look for a SOLUTION to this problem....for starters the FREAKIN UN should help the Haitian economy which is the key.
Written by: ROMYP, 10 Aug 2012 1:23 PM
From: Netherlands, AMSTERDAM
2RIOSM, I mean, one ISLAND they don't cross border, they are still living in the same land that DOMINICAN THIEF FROM THEM WHILE HAITI WAS DIVIDE, HAITI QUISQUEYA, OR BOYO. it's mean they are not ILEGAL.
Written by: riosm, 10 Aug 2012 1:44 PM
From: United States
ROMYP
It doesn't matter if it's an Island or a continent....borders divide land that establish separate nations for self rule.
Haiti is a separate country with it's own language, culture, rule of Gov., flag and is self ruled. I put the blame on the Haitian Gov. not her people.
Written by: ROMYP, 10 Aug 2012 1:53 PM
From: Netherlands, AMSTERDAM
@bernard jean pierre, you are right to the point!
Written by: ROMYP, 10 Aug 2012 2:03 PM
From: Netherlands, AMSTERDAM
@RIOSM, JUST GUESS WHO LET THEM IN??? WHAT'S THE POINT of filling a dumps truck with HAITIAN,and shipping them OUT, when there is an other one shipping them IN....STOP CORRUPT BORDER GUARDS!!!
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venganzaderafael,
Unless the leadership in DR gets serious & ORGANIZED, this problem will continue to fester and bring difficult days ahead. I can't for the life of me understand why it's SO damned difficult for the leadership to get hand on this issue.
Yes, it's true that DR depends on cheap Haitian labor, especially in the agricultural sector to stay competitive. And yes, there are many hard working and decent Haitian workers in DR. However, even a free trade agreement can function between two nations without the enormous illegal flows that we witness happening in the Haitian-DR case. We can have excellent economic relations & country to country relationship without this enormous illegal flow. But in order for this to happen, both sides need to be ORGANIZED & respect each others borders and laws. The breakdown in law on both sides of the island has facilitated these difficult days & much harder ones to come. Only getting back to a law abiding posture will help'
Danilo has to thread carefully because the Haitian Question has a very International Clientele at its apex. We aren't sure what the behind the scene agreements and negotiations are and it's not at all clear what has been negotiated. But it certainly appears that DR is just paying lip service to any serious border control regime. And certainly paying lip service to any serious attempt to reverse significantly the migratory flows of recent times, say 10 years to this date.
Great movement by by them!
for what i saw was
cape town is is a great place to vist,
but for many others in africa most blacks when taken as slaves from there own country had it better then they do have it now.
most live in grass huts and most have aids and not much of a chance to live a long or normal life.
Since the DR government is powerless, even in a transition period, where many conflictive measures are enacted, the empowered citizens are taking matters in their own hands.
Again as predicted, the same DR civilian militia that sent the invading hordes of Haitians, back to their wasteland in the 19 TH century, will rise up and send these marauding trespassers, running back to their side of the island.
To blame illigal Haitians for most of the crimes that are committed is ridiculous. Most of the crimes are committed by Dominicans.
And the documentation or statistics to support your claim? Other than speculation or hearsay.
FYI the people that live in these neighborhoods know very well, all their neighbors and inhabitants, since it is a closed circle, and they KNOW with pin point accuracy who are the felons committing the crimes in their vecindario.
The surge in Haitian illegal immigrants, specially in Santiago is unacceptable and can not and will not be tolerated. Whether they contribute to the upsurge in criminal activities in these areas is beside the point, they surely do not bring anything good, except disease, homelessness, pollution, unsanitary conditions, public loitering and begging, and squatters in private and public lands.
THAT'S A SHAME.
Political leaders in Santiago are silent. They have not come out and said one word.What are they waiting for ?
In fact they don't need to say one word, they only need to act, that will be sufficient, but they must act NOW !!!!
Yes, it's true that DR depends on cheap Haitian labor, especially in the agricultural sector to stay competitive.
competitive with whom? actually, Professor, the agricultural products which require labor intensive modalities are the exact ones in which the DR is not competitive, such as sugar , and rice. staying competitive? is it currently competitive in traditional agricultural products?
"they surely do not bring anything good, except disease, homelessness, pollution, unsanitary conditions, public loitering and begging, and squatters in private and public lands."
How about cheap labor which in turn influx the domincan economy with millions, if not billions.
Look, i'm not here to defend illigal Haitian immigration. I too would like to see an comprehensive immigration policy but let's be realistic our government is tied by international regulations. Again, blaming haitians for everything that is wrong with our country is STUPID. I see it as an excuse to hide our (us dominicans) shortcomings, and there are plenty.
To blame illigal Haitians for most of the crimes that are committed is ridiculous. Most of the crimes are committed by Dominicans.
I do not think Haitians are the cause of crime in the DR. But let us re-read and better understand the article folks and perhaps some of us will get an improve grade in reading comprehension.
The article is referring to specific neighborhoods in Santiago. The locals want them out because a group of Haitians are responsible for the increase in crime. If you get rid of Haitian squalor it is likely safety will also improve.
When people react it is because they can not take it anymore, fed up with government failure to act and if they do nothing, vigilante groups will take justice into their own hands. This is just and simply a warning of what might be coming up ahead if this problem is not adquately resolved.
the mexican the mexican the mexican that is the us problem
the chinese the chinese the chinese is the problem. how about you people taking fault for your problems and stop blaming other people
The cheap labor argument is a poisoned gift that only benefits the sugar, construction and agricultural barons, that reap huge profits, postpone and procrastinate the urgent need to mechanize DR agriculture, just as Brasil, and even Cuba have done.
To exploit Haitian labor, brings about many undesirable consequences to the country, and lowers even further, the standards of living of the poorest Dominicans, forcing them to crime or even to desperate and dangerous, cross ocean illegal migration.
Seriously is this a feasible or achiveable project? I do not see the way the DR will be able to control illegal immigration without a border wall.
The issue here is that every time the DR tries to look in the mirror, Haiti is also there cheek to cheek. I think the DR needs to get the house organized. Once the backyard fence is up, then the DR can choose who should stay and who should leave.
Why don't you busy yourself with the on-goings in your J in regards to how they treat their illegal population flows?
;)
------------------------
As for the use of Haitian labor, Again, it can be used and STILL HAVE STRONG MIGRATORY CONTROLS IN PLACE. Its use does not exclude strong border controls, nor following the law that stipulates what % of foreign labor can be used in different sectors.
Strong documentation with real penalties for both individuals and companies that break the laws. In other words, a real legal regime will provide that best protection for all in this matter. What is happening looks and feels like a Great Poverty Dumping Policy Initiative by the state and nation of Haiti unto the Dominican Republic.
Many here have noted such development, especially since the tragedy of Jan 2010.
To paraphrase Bill Clinton’s Campaign slogan it’s the “Economies Stupid."
This is simply and issue of Supply and Demand; our “economic model” demands Super Cheap Labor and Haiti is able to supply Super Large Numbers of it.
The disparity in economic development of both countries accounts for this phenomenon, as it Does between Mexico and the US, juxtaposed to Canada and the US who have more symmetrical economies, thus no “hordes” of Canadian illegals crossing the border to the US.
I would think that it would behoove all Dominicans and Haitians to DEMAND from the international community (especially the US and France) True economic development plans for a sustainable economic model for Haiti that would incentives the Haitian to remain home and create more consumers for Dominican products, Haiti being one of our main trading partners.
continued:
I will get off my pre-GED soap box and allow Dr. Dread to EDUCATE us all on this topic without the xenophobic, nationalistic, racist rhetorical arguments and present us with the Inconvenient Truth of Economic Reality.
I believe the DR can provide legal jobs to 300K haitians or probably a little more, and if these legal immigrants wish to set root in the country they can do so following the laws and rules. But an uncontrolled illegal immigration is simply not sustainable. If in deed there are one million plus haitians in the DR, someone else in the world needs to take a share of that human load.
How much would cost to build a border wall?...That is the first step.
What you state, "If in deed there are one million plus haitians in the DR, someone else in the world needs to take a share of that human load." I've stated many times before: The Haitian Question needs an international solution. DR can not be expected to fill that Enormous Void. Too many needs and too much desperation on top of an ancient and intractable feud between the enormous underclass and the tiny elite class in Haiti.
Couple the huge problems still facing many lower class Dominicans-lack of schools, decent housing, reliable water & electricity, etc.,- the DR has its own set of huge problems to negotiate.
So other nations in the Americas and Africa should help. Let each nation in the Americas take in a minimum 2,000 Haitians per year, with the largest, USA (50K), Brazil, Mexico taking in say 10,000 a piece and the African nations taking in equivalent totals and over say 10-20 years the Haitian Question will be solved. Europe to finance expenses
in Latin America and Africa. A small stipend for a few years to help them gain a foot-hold. :)
I was reading not too long ago how a powerful organization was urging Europe to adopt more migratory friendly measures given that Europe's population was rapidly aging; so Haitians can also go to Europe and give them some spice to go with the rice-that's for you Josean :)
DR will never rise from the bottom as long as it has such burden pulling her down to the ground. Polititians know this and the world knows it as well. They don't simply care.
So it's up to society to make the next move. Otherwise, DR will be worse in a couple of years than what it is today!!
The people should be protesting for the constuction of border wall not demanding the expulsion of the illegal foreigners. If the illegals are sent back to their home country today, they will be back to the barrio in a week.
I have been saying here for the longest. The Santiago I knew and grew up is a shelf of what it was. I think Santiaguero or Cibaeños will be the ground zero in fighting this Fusion's conspiracy. if the entire country become more and more complacement with this notion of creating one country we will try to break apart first. If the NGO, French, Canada, UK, USA, UN come up victorious in creating a fusion in DR; They will have to beat us first as we will be their the last line of defense. Thrughout our history we has been always suspicious of every one of their movement and on the look out as we NEVER FORGET. Most of us know our history and as a kid I remember the saying of the Haitians as they believe that from "El Puente Seco" of Santiago on belong to them.
Bernardjean "Haitians are no more "marauding invaders" as generoso labels them than the illegal Dominicans in the US are."
No it doesn't? Those Dominican pest breaking immigration law from other country is very small number. Most Dominican in the US are legal. Haiti is exporting their backward mentality people throughout the world. We take the biggest wrath over 3 Millions plus and counting each passing day.
Marauding trespassers was the correct term used, "marauding invaders" was more applicable to the six armed 19 TH century invasions, that Dominicans fought and won against the Haitians.
"Paying your way" by bribing a poor and underpaid "guardia" is not the same, as arriving in DR with a legal visa, and procuring a residency card and work permit if applicable.
Don't try to water down things, by intending to shift the blame of the illegals, to the corrupt Dominicans, that allow the undocumented and paperless Haitians in for a bribe.
It is reasonable for citizens to take matters into their own hands, and declare these trouble making illegals "personna's non grata".
Dominicans can't wait any more for the DR government to repatriate these illegals, and the public demonstrations should continue unabashed.
Haitians go home! Haitianne ale lakay ou!
Who's actually going to build it? that's right.. you guessed it
which is why that idea will most likely never come to fruition. It's cheaper to pay a Haitian in tostones than to pay a Dominican in pesos.
What we are seeing are the side effects of desperation and I don't see it going away on either side of the island anytime soon.
BTW, not to bash Martelly, but what has he been doing so far? if someone can fill me in...
Rome wasn'tt built in a day but the Haitian government has a huge role in this and needs to get its act together.
Dominicans will build the wall!
Also students, volunteers, lazy do nothing military, prisoners doing time, and Haitian legal residents of DR with work visas.
Mechanization as well, build the wall with prefabricated structures.
lets be realistic, do you think all of them will stop playing dominoes and hanging at the colmado to build a 195-mile long wall under the hot tropical sun? Do you honestly believe construction bosses will give up their greed overnight? and after all, it benefits them the most to hire cheap haitian labor to do it (who obviously won't) than to hire dominicans, knowing they'll have to pay them more.
btw you can forget about the prisoners helping; they'll just escape or "mysteriously disappear"
Patriotism has no monetary value. Dominicans will be proud to build the wall.
The numbers of Haitians is what matters. DR can handle and employ 350K to 500K Haitians, all legal residents if there is work for them, and they pay their taxes.
The rest is the problem, it is like water rising to the top of the glass, and if it keeps coming in, soon it will spill over, and there will be a flood.
The flood of high numbers of Haitians "tourists" that are abusing the RD's hospitality, must be repatriated, and the Haitians should also understand the message, and go home.
E'pa fueran que van............!!!!!
BTW according to the Economist this year Jamaica is lagging behind Haiti in term of economic growth hard to believe but true.
Amigos hablan de hacer un muro, del 1937 hasta el 1961 no habia muro y se respetaba la frontera, solamente eliminado la corrupcion militar y de funcionarios encargados de hacer cumplir las leyes y otorgandoles recursos para vivir dignamente a los soldados encargados de vigilar la frontera y eso si castigando severamente las violacioneS. ELIMINAR LA CORRUPCION
Only if the tri-state area were to be an independent country or we were talking about Puerto Rico, cuz' in the other states Dominican presence is close to nil. The only way the Haitian case would be similar would be if the Haitian presence here were to be limited to the San Pedro sugar mills or the fishermen's villages of the Samaná province, like it used to be in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
When talking about the Puerto Rico case, it's noteworthy the fact that, as small as that island is, one can give oneself the luxury of not seeing a single Dominican face in some municipalities, the inmigrants concentrating themselves in San Juan and nearby municipalities.
And I wish they would please stop pulling the race card for Christ Sake when ever the undocumented issue comes up. They know quite well this is not racial but rather of preserving our Sovereignty. We already lost thousands of miles of territory to Haiti and they are still coming back for more. Enough is Enough...........
The justification of who will do the job under the sun is silly, the Dominicans will make, as do the Haitians by the low wages paid and pay them abusive employers that create conflicts the Dominican people, so the Dominicans regain their jobs they occupy Haitians now, JUST THAT.
WRONG...............!!!!!
Who will it be then ? Who do you think ?
The same people who performed the same low wage jobs before the Haitians came, will be the same ones who will do the same.
Do you get it or do I need say more ?
I will not be drawn into debating arguments that are just a distraction, from a tired menu, often used, to try to change the subject matter, by professional pro Haitian-DR unification spin doctors.
The Dominican glass is full of illegal Haitians, and Dominicans are shouting BASTA YA!
The DR is not the solution to Haitian problems, illegal trespassing must be reversed, and illegals repatriated soon, the proud DR citizens will resist and repel this invasion.
Choices.
1---Stay in Haiti and eat sh$%t
2---Cross the boder and be treated like sh$%t
They have been the worst neighbors in the world, the worst managers of their own country, the worst and most reckless dictatorships, the worst diplomats and politicians isolating themselves as a by-product, the worse conquerors and war mongers, the most corrupt and greedy public officials, and the most brutal humans.
Who's making $$ the same DR officials watching the boarder, start sweeping house there, and than deal with the truck owners that bring them into DR. Haitians are not walking or biking into the country right?
Aren't you the same person that comes on here stating that he hates all Dominicans and that all Dominicans are his enemy? Ironic that you would post such a study.
Question: How many Haitians does it take to screw a lightbulb up in the ceiling?
Answer: Six, one to hold the bulb and 5 to spin him around.
(joke)lol.
Does any one know the number of Haitian women giving birth in Santiago vs. the whole country ?
Trust me we understand it's something in the cookies....even in Ca na da your kind is not respected.
True many Haitian's cross the border into the DR for work and a better life but consider....illegal Haitian's are depleading the DR's very limited resources.
The DR Gov. has ignored the problem for way too long turned CRISIS with no end in sight. The Haitian Gov. is part of the problem also.
The DR and Haitian Gov. should look for a SOLUTION to this problem....for starters the FREAKIN UN should help the Haitian economy which is the key.
It doesn't matter if it's an Island or a continent....borders divide land that establish separate nations for self rule.
Haiti is a separate country with it's own language, culture, rule of Gov., flag and is self ruled. I put the blame on the Haitian Gov. not her people.