I have been meaning to write an article about identity and oppression for a while, because I think that by exploring these concepts we can identify some aspects of our political system that maintain the public divided, uneducated, and complacent. When the word discrimination” is mentioned in the DR, most people REACT by shifting the issue to anti-Haitian movements. Let me start by saying, even if Haitian immigration were not vilify as THE MAJOR problem in the DR, or even if we didn’t have any Haitians in the at all, we would still suffer from discrimination and oppression along racial, gender, and sexual lines, among others.
So let me preempt all the comments shifting my words to
Anti-Dominicanism or pro-Haitianism or UN-Collaborator, by saying that my thoughts and comments are aimed to highlight an oppressively uneven distribution of resources, the lack of incorporation of the public in public decisionmaking processes, and some mechanisms used to hide these flaws in our political system and manufacture an oppressive identity. I promise I’ll try to keep the theory to a minimum, but will respond with more info if questions are posted.
With that said, let me start.
One of the principal functions of “Culture” is that it characterizes bodies, music, art, accents, jobs, sexuality, et cetera, into a value-laden hierarchical continuum that tells us what is good from what is bad; what is ugly from what is sublime; what is licit from what is not. Different mechanisms are used to create and support these hierarchies – the media, music, religion, myths, schools, history… e.g. why are actors and models used in the advertisement in the DR mostly, if not altogether, white? Why do we consider the Spanish or Argentine accent more educated? To cut to the chase, why do we admire the “European” and slander the non-white? In the Centro Leon in Santiago, there is a wonderful exhibition on Dominican ancestry. It is divided into two post-Taino halves: first, one sees things we derived from the Spaniards. These artifacts are brightly lit and highly celebrated. The second half of the exhibition is walled-off, and the wall has a few holes people can look through and see an extensive collection of artifacts, foods, and customs we inherited from our African ancestors. The exhibition is clear in its message: Dominican society celebrates the “European” and hides the “African”. This is also evident from our language – “improving the race”; “good hair” versus “bad hair”; and so on.
People’s identities are shaped by interaction with these cultural hierarchies. People can suffer damage when the society around them mirrors back to them a confining or demeaning picture of themselves. People internalize “recognized images” which present an obstacle to the advancement of minority groups and provide an unfair advantage to those who are fortunate to be born, by mistake, into the dominant group. This self-depreciation, lack of self-respect, low self-esteem, this negative recognition is a form of oppression. It leads, in the words of Charles Taylor, to a “crippling self-hatred.”
In Justice and the Politics of Difference, Marion Iris Young (1990) provides an interesting definition of “Oppression.” She argues, in chapter 2, that oppression has five faces: “Exploitation, marginalization, powerlessness, cultural imperialism, and violence.” For brevity’s sake, I’ll briefly touch on each and leave it up to the readers to determine if any of these mechanisms are present in the Dominican culture.
Exploitation is the expropriation of surplus value by one group by another. In democracies it is structurally enacted and supported by “social rules about what work is, who does what for whom, how work is compensated, and the social process by which the results of work are appropriated operate to enact relations of power and inequality. These relations are produced and reproduced through a systematic process in which the energies of the have-nots are continuously expended to maintain and augment the power, status, and wealth of the Haves.”
Marginalization occurs when people are systematically excluded, either willfully or through some weeding “barriers”, from the labor market. Marginalized people are subject to severe deprivation and even extermination. Additionally, because of their dependant position, they are excluded from or barely included in public decision making process and are subject to intrusive rules and oversight.
Powerlessness includes “inhibition in the development of one’s capacities, lack of decisionmaking power in one’s working life, and exposure to disrespectful treatment because of the status one occupies.” A good example is the freedom enjoyed by professional workers, while “blue-collar” workers are subject to all kinds of oversight mechanisms.
Cultural Imperialism means that the “dominant group” in a society renders their meaning, views, values, and overall experience as the “natural” or “legitimate,” while rendering all other groups invisible and their experience unnatural, foreign, illicit, or even evil. “Cultural imperialism involves the universalization of a dominant group’s experience and culture, and its establishment as the norm” These groups may dominate or have primary access to the means of communication and portray their views as dominant through these channels. “Since only the dominant group’s cultural expressions receive wide dissemination, their cultural expressions becomes the normal, or the universal.” The dominant group reinforces its position by labeling other cultures as “the other”, inferior, uncultured, ordinary, and deviant. The culturally dominated are rendered invisible and at the same time labeled inferior. Stereotypes of dominated groups are so prevalent that they are uncontested, internalized, and portray members of oppressed groups as non-individuals. The only legitimate individuals are those who belong to the dominant group. “This, then, is the injustice of cultural imperialism: that the oppressed group’s own experience and interpretation of social life finds little expression that touches the dominant culture, while that same culture imposes on the oppressed group its experience and interpretation or social life.”
Violence is a social practice, and approaches legitimacy, when it is tolerated. Light punishment of violence toward women, homosexuals, kids, immigrants, minorities, the poor, mentally-ill, and other oppressed groups is a form of sanctioned oppression.
The State is not, in and of itself, the sole perpetrator of these oppressive practices, but, as I explained a few weeks ago, institutions are very powerful in shaping our culture. The state can endeavor to create institutions to reach out to traditionally marginalized population and help “level the playing field.” In South Africa and the
U.S., for example, there are laws that require banks to invest in traditionally marginalized communities. That is, the State has recognized that banks will not invest in poor communities, and that they need to be compelled to do so. These policies have generated jobs in urban and rural areas and have helped traditionally depressed communities become more economically active.
But actually, the uneven distribution of resources should only be the beginning of our analysis. We should question the processes which led to such skewed distribution and work to correct them. To that end, I propose that it is the lack of inclusiveness of the public in public-decisionmaking processes that has led to our government adopting such regressive programs that continuously transfer resources to the rich and maintain the middle and poor classes in a desperate situation.
Recognizing differences among groups in the DR is a step that may lead to increased participation and may help address the huge resource inequalities present in the DR. The lack of recognition of difference – the portrayal that there is no difference among Dominicans – masks the huge exclusion of minorities, women, homosexual, and other oppressed groups from positions of power. The rhetoric of “One Dominican identity” is a mechanism of oppression and exclusion, not unity.
This article is a call to recognize that discrimination and oppression exists in the DR, and that it includes and is not limited to Haitian immigrants. It is a call to be aware of the oppressiveness of the imposition of only one Dominican culture. The reality is that the DR is a multi-class, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-sexual, multi-lingual society. We are more than just the white models used in advertisements. We are more than just baseball players.
We are more than cheap labor. We are strong women, men, gays, black, white, Asian and everything in between. By masking these differences, we mask who we are, oppress ourselves, and support the same mechanisms that we criticize which demobilize people from political participation.
In addition, this article is a challenge to recognize that we may be oppressing others through our actions, words, or inaction. People like to claim that they are oppressed, but seldom do they like to recognize that they may also be oppressing others sexually, racially, or religiously. We must strive to truly recognize and appreciate the differences between people and reject the stereotypes conveyed by the dominant groups.
Misrecognition is a form of oppression, and a “colorblind” policies and rhetoric are political mechanisms to mask inequality and placate/demobilize the population from demanding change.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Well...You hit the nail on the head. There's defenitely discrimination in the D.R. Just the the same way there's discrimination in Haiti, United States, Bangladesh, and the little island nation in the south-pacific that no one knows about. As far as the "hiding" of African ancestry in the D.R., i believe this problem relates with the Anti-Haitian issue. If things were reversed and most Haitians were 90 percent White/Mulatto, 10 percent black, and were walking into clubs in Santo Domingo throwing pesos in the air like they were Saudi Arabians, this article wouldn't even exist.
Written by: Lautaro, 2 Jan 2008 4:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Of all the cases of violence/discrimination that you mentioned above, mr. Gonzalez, I think that the one which requires the most attention, not only in the DR but also in Haiti, is the one practiced against women. Examples of this are: 1- The avoidance by the Catholic Church and other conservative sectors of any serious debate about the abortion subject at the political level, because they think that women should not have the right to decide what to do with their bodies, and 2- The irresponsible manner in which the judicial system treats the cases of violence against women, and what is worse, the violent are widely celebrated by society for their acts of "manliness", which serves to further encourage a future reenactment of their criminal deeds. This patriarchalism on the part of dominican society is, in my opinion, one of the main reasons that explains why, even to this day, trujillismo is still a force to be reckoned with.
Written by: Lautaro, 2 Jan 2008 5:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'm not implying with this for the other cases not to be adressed, it's just that, man, there isn't a single week on the whole year without a case being reported of a man shooting, beating or maiming a woman to death on this country!!!
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
I understand, and I agree with, what you meant Lautaro. SOme forms of oppression tend to attract more attention than others, but all types of discriminations are oppressive, divisive, and an instrument to manipulate the public. For example, in the U.S. people (republicans) call Hillary Clinton a "B*tch" all the time; but no one dares call Obama a "N*gg*r". Why is this the case? Why is it o.k. to call women names, but not Afri-Amer? It is not o.k. to do either. We must call out and reject any instance of oppression and discrimination, if we want to change our society and create a truly inclusive society.
And James, yes the Haitian discrimination helps justify our under appreciation of our African roots, but my point is even without the presence of a Haitians in the Dominican psche, the dominant group would still impose a manufactured identity that is intended NOT TO UNITE, but to identify who is "acceptable"; e.g. the exclusion of non-whites from some social settings/clubs.
From: Haiti
Mr. Gonzalez,
I commend you for a well thought out article and I think the problem globally was/is due to colonialism how it effected our psyche. In the americas & ww there is a hierarchy where les blancs are at the top of the totem pole and it trickles down to les noirs which are at the bottom of the totem pole. Name one country in the americas where the white (or casi blanco) minority of that group doesn't control the wealth and considered at the top. In a society where phrases such as "trabajo como un negro para vivir como un blanco" is accepted as the norm. Or in south america where one hear phrases such as "no ser tan indígena" which in the DR would be considered a compliment. Even my beloved country has issues and discriminates towards the majority. I think the solution is to re-educate starting with the youth at an early age to appreciate all parts of socity indigenous,african & european without bias. the big issue 4 dominicans is if they identify with their african.
From: Haiti
continued...culture than they feel they are embracing haitain which in your psyche equals african. Now this is where we as haitian nationals & dominican nationals need to draw the line without one over shadowing the other. Most important are women's rights. Society has created a machismo attitude where women are seen as ama de casa "housekeeper" and are assistants which is a step up. But this is where my fear of the warmth and charmful women in our society will be drafted for the over powerful women that gives orders and makes our lives miserable. Chile & Argentina have taken a leap in the americas let's hope others will follow this positive but uncertain trend....Besides, my philosphy has been behind or (al lado) a strong man there is a stronger woman pulling the strings.
Written by: Lautaro, 3 Jan 2008 1:26 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Along with reeducation of the masses, what the progressive movements needs to do, mr. jabao, is to somehow rescue the freedom of press from the captivity that it's currently suffering at the hands of corporate interests, because the press is the main vehicle of education of the masses, and a vehicle which, unlike school system, it's always in motion, and their truths (and lies) are better retained by the people than any school lecture.
From: Haiti
Lautaro,
I concur that freedom of press "parler librement" have been in bondage by corporate business sectors to keep the blinds on the majority of the mass but it is up to each individual to uplift themselves & seek the truth. Besides, I think the religion sectors in both of our societies have more power than they should rather they should play a role in building the bridge between the have and have nots but reality is they are to high up to see what the everyday life is on the battle ground(los barrios) but always have an opinion on how things should be done. The worst thing is people listen rather than digest "la palabra" to see if it's justified. A wise man once told me "el pobre suplica y el rico insulta".
Written by: Lautaro, 3 Jan 2008 2:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
On recent years, there have been an increase on the numbers of people siding with the different protestant churches, mr. Jabao. They, unlike the Catholic establishment, are quite willing (and working) to help both countries to mend their wounds. This phenomenon is, at least from my point of view, a sign that things might start to change in Haiti/DR relations. The only drawback that the different protestant churches have in my estimation is their militant support of the Catholic POV on the therapeutic abortion debate. Also one can't underestimate the militant role that the Company of Jesus (or jesuits, as they're more commonly known) have played in the fight for the rights of the haitian inmigrants and their descendants both within and outside the Catholic Church.
From: Haiti
Monsieur Lautaro
I share the same POV regarding the decrease of followers in the Catholic establishment and literally in all latin america besides Mejico. As the Mr. Gonzalez mentions when someone utters the word "discrimination" one quickly ponder on the domínico-haitiana relationship. There are factors regarding this subject that would still permeate in the domincan society without the discrimination against my compatriots. Each individual must be held accountable for his/her actions and struggle to overcome the constant pyschological damage thru centuries of oppression and humiliation. When our society becomes tolerate and depict the majority in a positve light on the tube and other medias maybe that negative seed of discrimination will disperse itself and one will judge base on character rather than the colour of thy skin. Poco a Poco Petit a Petit with mediums such as this one the light shall beam thru the darkness and awaken the dorment minds of our deadizens.
Written by: lcabrera, 4 Jan 2008 11:56 AM
From: United States
You got that right Jemesouviens!
From: United States
welcome back, Jabao. i see you were off on holiday hiatus. just a short anecdote to buttress the usual wonderfully articulated ideas of Baldoria. a little over a year ago ,i went into a local colmado( yes, Jabao), to buy a piece of cheese and a bottle of soda; 2 items. two Canadian ladies were roaming the aisles selecting their items, and i arrived at the cashier in a split instant before they did. the cashier had already rang up the soda on the register, when the owner of the colmado instructed her to stop, erase the purchase ,and attend to the white ladies first. i was taken aback initially, but i realised what had happened, and managed to smile about the issue. you see, two things happened. firstly, the Canadians could quite easily have indicated to the cashier to continue with me; after all, they were on holiday, and time was not that critical. but they concurred with his decision, reinforcing in the minds of all who witnessed the event that this is the way things should be.
From: United States
the Dominican colmado owner, on the other hand, has already had his psyche corrupted. he already knows what the pecking order should be. i am a light -skinned black man, and i wonder what would have happened if the principals in this affair had been myself and a very dark skinned Dominican or Haitian. would he have instructed the cashier to serve me first, in preference to the darker man? as i have posted on many occasions, it is sad to see the deleterious effects that colonialism has had upon the minds of our people, wherein we see others as being congenitally better than we are, simply because their skin is lighter and their noses are straight. i watch in dismay when i see europeans and north americans, some of little or no merit whatsoever, strutting around the country as if they were gods. most of these people are rejects from their native societies, a pestilence upon their parents and friends. they come here and throw their bombast around, and Dominicans will not put them in
From: United States
their places, because they think that they would be overstepping their bounds. we can only hope that with the passage of time, these maladies will be corrected
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Thank you Icabrera....Im glad you see my point of view.
From: Haiti
Dread,
Thank you for remembering me..I am glad to read you again. Your story is nothing new and sadly this occurred because in the owners mind(brain washed) knew the hierarchy and did what to him is the just thing, serve blanco first and the rest comes after. Can't blame him though but the canucks that come from a so called unbias society should've corrected this as you mentioned but did not..That says alot.. I say if it wasn't for the laws in north america that punishes(lawsuit) individuals/institutions these sad phenomenons would happen in n. america.
But I blame you for not having those canadians pay for you stuff as well..jejej. How did you play it off.? Did u say anything? Nothing like humiliate someone that should know better. You should see the faces I get when I tell them i'm haitian. I my Gosh he speaks english like us..lol...and he is light skin..im almost white in the DR though.lol.. I have many stories that are similar..I will write one when i get a chance.
Written by: ny4life, 7 Jan 2008 12:59 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
I'm glad you realize it's a colonial problem that has infected the world not just DR. Separating DR is not fair, I'm pretty sure if I were in Haiti as a light-skinned Dominican or American, I would be catered to better than your typical dark-skinned Haitian. You would look at the light skin man and think he is more wealthy and powerful than the dark-skin Haitian. That's a product colonisim where you cater to the white skin and provide special treatment. That exist on Hispanola, Africa, South America, and any other less developed part of the world where education is lacking and igornace still prevails. Education is the way to combat this disease that plagues the colonial socities of the world. Not everyone within these thinks that way but the ignorant and less educated still do. All I'm saying is that Haiti has the same problem and it's not right to single out Dominicans.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
The "colonial" mentality is far from unique to DR. Education is NOT the silver bullet, b/c the education sys that we have in DR go to support the status-quo which center on the achievements of the dominant group, and legitimate the hierarchical system. Education, as is, is another tool that support the hegemony (which is the key term) of those in power. For example, feminist theorists have done an excellent job of highlighting the absence of women in history - look @ Joan Scott - when it is reasonable to expect women to play a significant role. Ashish Nandy's "The Intimate Enemy" is an excellent book of how colonial rule in India stripped the colonized of their "self", and aggrandized the British. In that situation, the solution was to strive to become more British, without ever being able to achieve such status. The oppressed want to become more like the oppressor, and therefore recreating and supporting the hierarchical, oppressive system.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
I propose that this is part of what happens when members of an oppressed group try to become more like the "oppressors" by oppressing members of other oppressed groups that may be lower on the hierarchy than them: poor men oppressed and women; poor heterosexuals deride gays; poor put down immigrants; and so on. Essentially, to feel more empowered, there is a vicious cycle of oppression and discrimination. The only solution to break the cycle is a pedagogy that critiques and rejects the single identity that is portrayed as the "normal" the "good"; a philosophy that recognizes the legitimacy of different groups, and calls for a policy of inclusiveness and equal human, economic, social, and political rights. This can only be accomplished by a political system that incorporates the people in the decision making process, instead of shutting them out.
Written by: ny4life, 7 Jan 2008 1:39 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Education, will only allow you to understand that there is a mentality as we have described as "colonial". It takes an educated person to understand the origins of such attitude and understand how it divides people by status based on skin color. With out this understanding you are ignorant for not knowing there is a problem and continuing to think in such discriminatory ways.
From: Haiti
NY4life, read Bladoria's post again. As education will not magically erase century old practices of inferior complex and hierarchy based on skin tone. As I mention DR isn't the only country facing this dilemma across the border we have our own issuesbased on skin tone. but it is institutionalised in the DR thru the media. When have you seen a beautiful morena promoting the country or a moreno broadcasting el paraiso rather to realize these fantasies one has a need to put a blanco/a in the forefront. What's worse is the mass accept it and kind want this image as well as if the know deep inside they aren't worthy. We all no after that giving birth the first thing one notice is if el nino salio blanco or not. God forbid one of Josefina's kids came out black but if rubio como la mantequilla then he is the pride of the family. I think we have to re-educate our society ,both, on what is considered beauty.
From: Haiti
Phrases such as "quiero una blanquita bonita. me da lo mismo un blanco que un maldito negro o ei negro e’comi’a ‘e puerco”. Mejorar la raza is an anthem and slogan embedded in young kids to marry lighter which means success in life and sign of wealth and better social status. I can go on and on but I think I would run out of characters. Ny4life, being light skin in haiti would get you some special treatment but if you open your mouth sounding like a tiguere del barrio you will suddenly be looked down upon and left alone. One main one I cant for get..looking for a job and one sees in the add..buscando gente con buena presencia..Hmm????? Now el preito knows not to even bother since it is an unwritten rule that they are looking for blanquitos.. Oh and this one dos morenos are going at it offending each other but one wants to strike a final blow and calls el otro moreno un maidito haitiano..all war breaks out....
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 1:19 AM
From: United States, New York, NY
Hey Jabao,
En Haiti es lo mismo entre los blancos. White is king brother! Not that it's right but that's the way the world is run. Sad but true. In Haiti es lo mismo. The fact that DR is more powerful than Haiti, the situation is blown out of proportion pero en Haiti es lo mismo.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 10:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Correct me if I'm wrong, mr. ny4life, but : Are you trying to say that, once the lack of education is out of the way, the matter of racism would be one of personal choice? I'm saying this because, from my estimation, no matter how racist the education a people receive might be, the attitude that he/she ends up having could, in some cases, run counter to that. An example of this is father Christopher Hartley himself. My reason for saying this is that, in my estimation, notwithstanding the values of his aristocratic english education, he ended up taking the missionary way, and that truly was a step, considering that, racism and classism are more embedded in british society than it will ever be in the DR, because the assumptions of white supremacy (given its more than succesful imperial past) have never been truly discussed in the UK, the only step in that way being the abolition societies, and even then, they only discussed the fate of africans and not the evils of colonialism.
From: Haiti
N4life, I will reiterate that inferior complex due to colonialism is something Haitians face and other latin american countries as well. This article from my understanding isn't about solely blame the dominicans but a testimony of the institutionalise "white is right and if black step back" discrimination without even mentioning the haitian factor. My brother read your last post again. To my understand of english you are cleary saying "well it isn't right but the white man is king so lets all try to be like him." Im sure white people reading this are baffled by such comments. It's that negative seed embedded in dominican society (others too) that appears to stand out. Ok so you live in NYC and you know damn will in america 96% of dominicans are not white and to make a safety net let's call a group of people latino which isn't a damn race. thank god or else the check box with the infamous "afro" would be the last option. If I agreed with your way of thinking.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 1:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The elites are no fools, mr. Jabao, if they dared apply the one drop rule here, they'll be smaller in numbers than they already are. In the caste system of colonial Spanish America, there was no barrier for interracial mating while, at the same time, a racial hierarchy operated, combined with the Iberian purity of blood rules. As a result, the status of a mixed-race person would be determined by the proportion of "white blood" with elaborate names classifying the combinations of black, Amerindian and white. Inverse from the above said system, small drops of white blood was enough to position a person above "pure" non-whites. Furthermore, racial caste did not only depend on ancestry or skin color but also could be risen or lowered by the person's economical fortune. After the abolition of slavery and Latin American independence, the caste divisions were blurred into wider groups. (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 1:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
In December, 2002 the Washington Post ran a story on the one drop theory. In the reporter's opinion: "Someone with Sidney Poitier's deep chocolate complexion would be considered white if his hair were straight and he made a living in a profession. That might not seem so odd, Brazilians say, when you consider that the fair-complexioned actresses Rashida Jones of the television show "Boston Public" and Lena Horne are identified as black in the United States." It has always marveled me that dominican society are only willing to copy american standards up to a certain point. Apparently, the one drop rule is the one place where not even the elites are willing to go.
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:00 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Jabao,
I didn't say let's try to be like anybody but the truth is that the power in the world lies in the hands of those with lighter skin and you as a Haitian should know this since your country is mostly of black descendent. I'm not condoning this at all but it is the truth. It's sad and unfortunate that his the case but it's known way that the plight of Haiti has to do with the world not accepting the first totally Black liberated Republic. Blacks and Latino's especially in the U.S. fight for the same rights as the white elite. Latino is a race, it's a combination of many influences such as european, taino, and black. Some type of European influence is involved in order to be a Latino. You are right that 96% of Dominicans are not white, Dominicans are not white, they are breed of European, African, and Taino. That's why we are lighter skinned than Haitians. Dominicans have more European influence in our society which makes us Latino and that's the truth.
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:02 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Not every Dominican has black roots and if you do not many are purely Black like Haitians. Haiti on the other hand is dominiated by it's African roots as the majority are purely Black. DR definitely has black influences, it's dumb to say otherwise, as it's very present in our everyday lifes.
From: Haiti
continued..you and I would have to live with the fact that we are not equal (not kings) in this world but lower hierarchies that has to lament about not being born white. Look deep into the mirror my brother..your characteristic features are less than in this world so one must chase a lighter skin to improve your race. So if X dominican marries into Y dark skin family then accord to the status quo it = a degrading the race. Now you live outside of the cob web and still think the way you do entonces imagínate el pensamiento de los dominicanos en la R.D. No ombe, espero q' cambies tu forma de pensar. Tienes q' echar la sangre de los negros pa'lante porque sin ellos no hay merengue , no hay el accento dominicano(caribbean), no hay mujeres con las nalgas bein redondas etc. Acknowledging or even identifying with that part of dominican roots doesn't take anything away nor make your society lesser than & it doesn't make you Haitian if that makes u feel better.
From: Haiti
NY4life, so you think latino is a race. It's obvious you've been in the USA a long time. It's just a way to put a group of spanish speaking people under one umbrella. There isn't no such thing is a latin race. Speak in latin to me since I still remember some words from my days studying it in haiti. You can run all you want to but the truth shall set you free. Dude haiti is a majority black country just like the DR is majority black country although many of the negros have mixed whether with a european which latter had mulattos mixing with negros and back and forth. Your misconception of haitians is what makes dominicans in total shock when they see a haitian of my colour or even light skin. Every hue that you have in the DR you'll find it in Haiti. Remember Trujillo imported whites for europe to the cibao region and although many left they served trujillo's puprose of whitening the country. Imagine if this didn't happen. There would be more greñitas at the hair salons:).
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Miscegenation is an explicit strategy adopted to enforce a single identity and sustain and mask the huge inequalities that exist today. What do I mean by that? Well, if you are oppressed, and there is a way for you to improve your situation or that of your children, then you are less likely to revolt. So “mejorando la raza” was allowed. Furthermore, a few non-whites are allowed to move up the social-econ latter, to show that it is possible to improve your situation in life, only if you "follow the rules." But the truth of the matter is that all these things are ways to keep the public docile.
To ensure the reduction/rejection of the “less-valued” identity, a complex network of mechanisms are used to promote the “dominant” culture, to tarnish and vilify “the other.” This goes beyond race and xenophobia, this goes to a society based on oppression of those who do not or cannot, fit the ideal image – women, gays, poor, blacks, (black)migrants.
Think beyond the oppression of Haitian
From: Haiti
Ny4life, the dominicans that don't have black roots are/were immigrants that never mingled with the mass which would of tarnish their prestigous status.(elites, that don't need to take yola or live in NYC) Ok ,ya, I dont want to get in the colour issue too much but when I took my colombian friends to the DR with me they were like damn..this country looks like Buenaventura..the black region of Colombia...I took them to the great casi white hope of the DR and they were laughing that Santiago was considered the whitest in the DR. Besides, they were making fun of the accent & they didn't see the difference between haitians and dominicans which got me upset..jajjaja. Now again I can careless how you nor any dominican define their side of the island but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what influences the DR the most..
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:38 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Jabao,
I mispoke, latino is not a race but an ethnicity. Latino's tend to choose black or white as race depending on skin color and granted they have the right to do so. Latin is the root language of spanish, french, portugues, romanian, and others. So if you speak any of these and were born out side these countries and are descendents of these people than you are considered Latin-American.
We have different view on things and you just have respect it.
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:43 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
You don't care how we think but you are here everyday bashing DOminicans. You gotta be kidding me man. Sak pase? jajajaja..
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 2:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Maybe if you'll have taken them to La Vega, Constanza, Jarabacoa or Las Terrenas they would have felt satisfied, mr. Jabao. :-)
From: Haiti
Ny4life,
By know way I am bashing dominicans..Why is it when I Haitian speaks openly whether going against the grain of how dominican feel it is considered bashing. You just don't know the love I have for the DR and consider it my 2nd home. For your FYI, my wife is domincan and I improved her race(she is a light brown skin but middle class family and I am very light people think Im puerto rican) we met at PUCMM. Now imagine me a middle class haitian telling my family im getting engage to a dominican. First thing that came out of their lip was "Oh gosh he is marrying a cuero". I had to convince my family that she was NOT a typical domincan(haitian stereotype that all dominican women are hookers and the men theives). And she spoke proper spanish and also spoke french/english, family came from a good catholic background and father had his own business which is a good network for our family in the DR. I am here to dialogue in a respectful but honest fashion with being PC.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 3:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Mr. Jabao, I have a question: Are the well-to-do families on Haiti only living on Petionville and Kenscoff? I'm asking this because this is the latest stereotype that I have heard of lately.
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 3:11 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Here you go again always putting Haiti up and bringing DR down. Showing your true colors. You could careless about DR and will always portray Haiti as being better and the little guy everything picks on. You have a complex my friend. I respect your beliefs but they are one sided.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, you are probably right but I wasn't there to show them where one can find the whitest people in the DR.jajja. I will take them next time I go but they couldn't stop laughing at the accent and were in culture shock.. we met a colombian down there and they asked me what on earth would a colombian want in the DR. I told them the truth..most delinquents using the island as a transhipment for their export and it aint coffee.jjaja they stopped making jokes. Just so happen when we were going to haiti on caribetour 4 colombians where going back to haiti for God knows what. My Pablo Escobar jokes were infinite...jajajja. If any colombians reading this..take it in good stride.Oiga, Colombia es pasion..
Petion Ville isn't what it used to be but still is Le p'tit Paris of Haiti....Kenscoff is still cool and haven't had to much changes..Caribetour goes straight to Petion Ville.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 3:23 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
They should not complaint, because, if my mind doesn't betray me, I remember that the past government put them (the Colombians) on the list of foreigners which don't require visas to enter the country. :-)
From: Haiti
NY4life, Dio' mio que te pasa broder..How's that a la dom-york style. To be frank , u will never understand and it will never dawn on you haitians are diversified group of people not braceros looking for a better life in the DR..t'es fou..lol.... I can't blame you due to your upbringing and living in NYC..gosh, I abhor that third world place in the USA. You are thinking too much about haitian vs dominican rather than sit back and learn of our differences and stereotypes so the next generation can live in harmony. Only if you knew the stereotypes we have about your people but I respect your opinion and hope take time to reflect about your own personal prejudice and other factors which keep both nations at each others neck. I would like to add one thing which I hope sticks with you 4 the rest of your life..Pro-haitian doesn't mean anti-dominican nor vice versa..All we have to do is look for the equalibrium. Besides, my kids are mitad dominicanos unfortunately..just kidding :)
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 4:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It shows that some people just can't live without having a "cuco" to blow off their hate and fear. I think that it's called the "tirarle piedra a los chiquitos" syndrome, mr. Jabao. :-)
Written by: lcabrera, 8 Jan 2008 5:09 PM
From: United States
Hey JabaoHaitian I agree with you man, I am totally Dominican and let me tell you that there are a lot of Dominicans living in the States and elsewhere out of the Dominican Republic that deny their nationality, I personally have met Dominicans like that and it really saddened me that a lot of my people ain't proud of their origen and the reason are because we are a poor country and 'cause the majority of us are black. It's like jemesouviens said on his comment, if Haitians were WHITE with green eyes, then the story would be totally different. I am dominican from root and I AM DAMN PROUD OF BEING DOMINICAN. for me we Dominicans and Haitians should treat each other like brother and sister.
But honestly I think this world is already full of souls with **** on their heart and brain, so I just leave it to God to do a miracle.
Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 8:18 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Eh Pa'lante que vamos! I'm glad Jabao you have learn some Dominican Spanish.
From: United Kingdom
Very interesting, Mr. Acosta, your right, discrimination does exists in the DR. (I’ll try to get to elephant in the room Haitian Migration into the Dr). In the DR, as in every country, the dominant group, excerpts it’s influence over the rest of population. In the US, we have the luxury of “protected status” to safeguard our rights from encroachment by the majority. Sadly, the Dr is not ready for this luxury; in the DR, people can barely sustain themselves, let alone worry about the plight of (foreign)people, that are more underprivileged they are.(Poor) Dominicans don’t have access to basic services, decent housing, reliable justice system & transportation; the government doesn’t care about them, until its election time. This subclass is marginalized ,by every one, and now that NGOs are focusing on the Haitians, within DR borders, who is going to stand up for them(dominicans). The thing gets me, Haitians seem to more organized in the DR, than in Haiti.
From: United Kingdom
It ok for upper class Haitians to completely exploit they’re own people but when they run away from the mess(so called South to South migrations),everyone and their mother stands up tries to fight for the poor. While I agree, that Dominicans don’t give enough respect to their African ancestors I think its directly related to the our independence movement 1840s(some of the reasons would not be acceptable in today’s world)but its also way to complex a subject to be argued on the internet. On another note, scarcity, a fundamental principal of “the dismal science” is becoming a very real problem in the DR,(as already is in Haiti).
From: United Kingdom
Jabao, Jabao, Jabao do you have any more condescending Jokes for us to read(lol). Man, we know your light skinned? I’m sorry! but you mention it, way to much, it adds nothing to your argument(I have met many White Haitians). I also know stereotypes, these stereotypes shed a negative light on Haitians and jokes as well, but I have too much respect for the Haitian people write such things. But I’ll give you a taste (lol). How do you make “little Haiti” a safer neighborhood? You rename it “little Bagdad “. Just a little south Florida Humor lol(currently in London)
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 12 Jan 2008 11:21 PM
From: United States
We are all God's children. Sop the hate and embrace love. Good will always overcome evil.
From: Dominican Republic
MATERNIDAD LA ALTAGRACIAEl 22% de los nacimientos son de madres haitianas Monday, January 21, 2008
Doris Pantaleón - 1/21/2008
Los partos a mujeres haitianas en la maternidad La Altagracia han aumentado considerablemente.
SANTO DOMINGO.- En los últimos dos años el número de nacimientos de hijos de madres haitianas en la maternidad Nuestra Señora de La Altagracia se ha incrementado considerablemente, al pasar de un nueve a un 22 por ciento con relación al número de partos que se atienden en el hospital, reveló ayer el director del centro.
El doctor Juan Cid Troncoso aseguró que el año pasado en la maternidad se registraron 21 mil nacimientos y de ellos el 22 por ciento era de madres haitianas.
Muchas de las embarazadas llegan al hospital al momento de parir, se cree que directamente desde Haití, por lo que no tienen expedientes médicos en el centro de salud.
Dijo que eso genera el inconveniente de que muchas llegan con anemias e infecciones, no hablan español, ni están
From: Dominican Republic
The author forgot one African tradition that even Haiti is dropping out and that is VooDoo! This is a very African tradition and yet none of the "Push Africanization Process" people have equated the Haitian as being "European loving" for abandoning this practice.
Most certainly DR should re-insert its authority and ignore pressure from proAfrican and prohaitian groups to transform DR into a satellite of Haiti. Given the history and all the imperialistic intentions of Haiti to annex DR, we should never entertain the idea of accepting culture relate to Haiti!
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
thanks for your comments greenwave. The reason I "forgot", or better yet excluded, those historical interchanges btw the DR and Haiti was b/c I am focusing on discrimination in general, not solely on discrimination against Haiti. This is more than a historical analysis, it is an attempt to analyze how discrimination and oppression operate in DR - not just about haitian discrimination, but discrimination and oppression of women, non-whites, homosexuals, the mentally and phisically ill, et cetera. Apologize if I that wasn't clear.
Does that address your concerns? Let me know if it doesn't and I'll try to explain a bit better. Sometimes I get too into the theory and forget the practical...
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Greenwave,
I urge you that next time you want to place historical facts, it would be nice and more acceptable that you put the Historical facts that are correct. You clearly forgot to mention several events in your previous post....Like how in 1795, France and Spain signed the "Treaty of Basel", which was the treaty that caused Spain to cede to whole island of Hispaniola to France, and have all of its citizens(Spaniards) leave within a year(Clearly this part never happend). Secondly, you mentioned the Haitian invasion of 1801...This was when Toussaint L'ouverture paraded into Santo Domingo and freed all slaves over there. Then you mention the invasion of 1805...Well a year before "Haiti", which became independent, tried to control the territory that they won only to be ousted by Spanish colonist and the French. Now for 1822-1844, Haiti finally was able to control its territory but only for 22 years....Continued
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
That was when Dominican's national hero, Juan Pablo Duarte, started a revolution to rid the Haitians from his side of the Island....His justification was that the Haitians outlawed the right to assemble, they surpress the population, they disbanding the local militia/Army, and that they were culturally different in that Haitians spoke French, and his people spoke spanish...Now theres more to the reason but I will not get into it. From 1844-1861 Haitians try to regain their lost territory to no-avail. Now can you tell me what happened after 1861.....The Dominican Republic reverted back to being a spanish colony, and back came slavery...The very thing Toussaint Louverture, Alexandre Petion, Dessaline, and Christophe committed their life to getting rid of. I suggest you do research before you post historical facts that are deceptive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Basel.From: United Kingdom
Wikipedia, strikes again lol! can somebody please find a more reputable source; when posting here, lets try to keep the collegial atmosphere alive .
Written by: Lautaro, 22 Jan 2008 11:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
You'll have to forgive me if I don't agree with you on this one, mr. jemesouviens, but in fact, you're the one who needs to get your facts straight, because we dominicans could not take from you something which already belonged to us. You see, before the treaty of Basel that you love so much to mention came into being, the island was, first and foremost, and spanish colony-settlement (hence the name Hispaniola that appears on every single US chart of the island), from 1492-1605. In 1605, in order to stop the smuggling activities of the inhabitants (the ancestors of the current dominicans) with the dutch and the french huguenots, the Spanish Crown ordered the devastations of the towns of the western side of the island and the relocation of those town's inhabitants to the eastern side. The towns destroyed were: 1- Bayaja, on the Manzanillo Bay, 2-Santa Maria de la Vera Paz, where the current Port-Au-Prince is located, 3- Yaguana, the place of the current Leogane (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 12:03 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
, 4- Puerto de Paz, where the current Port de Paix is located, and, more to the east: 5- Monte Cristi and Puerto Plata. With the inhabitants of Bayaja and Yaguana, the town of Bayaguana would be formed and with the ones of Monte Cristi and Puerto Plata, the town of Monte Plata would be formed. These traumatic events would be known as the Devastations of Osorio, because of the spanish governor, Antonio Osorio, who carried out those orders. A great part of the historians consider this events as the first signs of some sort of national thinking on the part of the islanders, because they defied the crown's orders, going so far as having some armed skirmishes with the colonial forces on the island Central Plateau. Half a century later, seeing as how the spanish authorities left the western part abandoned, Bertrand d'Ogeron, a french adventurer, would form the colony of Saint Domingue (1661), (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 12:22 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont..) Saint Domingue's main economic acitvities were the cultivation of tobacco and the hunting of the wild boar, actvities that didn't demand the use of african labour, but two things would change this, first, the extinction of the wild cattle, second, the ban against tobacco in Europe on the late XVII century, and third, the profits gained by the english with their sugar plantations on Jamaica, which used african slave labour. This events would force the colony to change its economic activities, and, on the year 1710, the colony transformed its tobacco lots into sugar, coffee and cocoa ones and began its massive importation of african slaves, and the rest, as some writers say, is history.
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 23 Jan 2008 2:20 AM
From: United States
Guys put this article to sleep and let all of us say God Bless America.
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 8:37 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
More than that, mr. John, we should pray for it. With the ups and downs of the New York Stock Exchange, nobody knows how many people could end up in poverty like it happened on the 1929 crash, or worse, how much the current stock crisis could affect little countries like the DR.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Latauro,
You do have some good points but I want to emphasize to you that the slave army which switch sides to help to French defeat Spanish attemps to regain the western side in 1793-95, caused the Spaniard to relinqusih any claim to the whole island....Thus giving it to French control. Several years later the "Indegenous Army" led by Petion, Dessaline, defeated the French Army. Im sure you heard the saying "to the victor goes the spoils". Now I clearly understand that the Spanish/Dominican colonist had been on the island way longer than the French and had a justifiable claim. I just want you to see it from my perspective, even though we disagree....But Latauro please dont think that I view D.R. in this modern era as a Break-away territory of Haiti. Clearly, Dominican Republic is for Dominicans, and Haiti is for Haitians.
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 10:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What I lament the most, mr. jemesouviens, is that the french deprived the island of Toussaint Louverture. From my point of view, he was the only man who could have led the island to the progress it duly deserved. Dessalines, Christophe, Petion and the others may have been unmatched soldiers, but none of them had the administrative capabilities of Toussaint. A fact proven by the economic performance of the island during his rule, which was the half of the one before the Revolution, an awesome feat, considering the decade of wanton destruction and outright warfare that the Revolution brought with it. Plus, he was the only one of those generals that understood this single fact: For the island to be one, the indigenous army needed the concourse of the easterners, that's why, on the taking of possession of the eastern side in 1801, he prevented his generals from commiting acts of unnecessary destruction and bloodshed, and left almost all their institutions intact (excepting slavery) (cont)
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 11:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) A fact that was utterly disregarded by the other rulers that followed him, due to the thriumphalism that they felt after defeating the french, a thriumphalism that may be excused but that would cost them dearly, as future events would prove in due time. Also, he understood that, until Haiti had the strenght to fight back, both economically and militarily, it could not give itself the luxury of alienating the white powers. That's the reason why he delayed declaring independence as long as he could, because, even though the country had the manpower and military skill to beat any European army that the powers would throw at it, on the long run that military victory could prove to be a disastrous defeat, because the war that would ensue would leave country open to be economically strangled by this powers, as it indeed has been the case.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to:Latauro,
As Im reading your response I began to scratch my head and wonder if you got a degree in Haitian history. Your comments cant be anymore correct. It is obviously clear that Toussiant L'ouverture was the smartest and most progressive Haitian in the country's history. I believe that if he was not betrayed by his fellow countrymen, the Haiti you see in the media today would be very different. However, dispite the situation Haiti is in now(albiet, things are getting better), I still feel that the 13 years of war, death,and in-fighting was worth it. I say this because quite frankly, I rather have nothing but the underwear that I am wearing now and live in object poverty, than be someone's slave. Im curious to know if you will go see the "Toussaint L'Ouverture Movie" that is directed by Danny Glover, which comes out in theaters in December of this year.
Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 8:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Most of it was self-taught, mr. jemesouviens. That is because I got tired of the dominican elite's antihaitian propaganda, so I decided to learn the truth by myself, reading authors like the celebrated Jean Price Mars, Dantes Bellegarde, and others. I didn't know that Toussaint's movie was going to get out this December, but yes, I'm deeply interested by it, because he's my favorite character from the island's history, the other ones being the maroon leader Sebastian Lemba and the Taino chieftain Enriquillo, which were the first ones to start the long and bloody struggle against european colonialism.
From: United States
to jemesouviens; it is a breath of fresh air to read postings by yourself, mr Lautaro, ed acosta, frank aquino, thelmo rancier , to name a few. it is evident that you are well prepared in your knowledge, but exhibit the humility that comes from self confidence. on the other side of the ledger are the self proclaimed authorities, who try to make their points by resorting to insults and snide remarks. these are usually the guys who have only seen books on tv. keep up the good work, and continue to refresh us with knowledge, at least those of us who actually want to learn something besides schoolboy insults.
From: Haiti
Lautaro,
To fast forward to present day events. Aristide made the same mistakes as his predecessors meaning he was demanding reparations from France which was his death sentence. The so called friends of Haiti sent him on a one way ticket to central africa using the DR as a base to escort him out. I am know way an Aristide supporter but his intentions were good up to the point he wanted to go head on with super powers. As history has played out Haiti has been punished for daring to stick her head out of the hole. Ask yourself this question? What happen to the reparation campaign? It vanished into thin air and haiti's economic situation is worse due to inflation to the infinite degree. Our national products can't compete with imported goods and the common haitian suffer or go across the border looking for a better life. BTW, the dominican poultry industry is hurting with the band. Another proof that DR and Haiti need better trade agreements and improve relations.
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Jan 2008 1:58 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Only the half of that reparation would be enough to adress the problems of the whole island, mr. jabao. From what I have heard, the number is around the billion of US$. Imagine how many schools, hospitals, and industries could be built with that? As for the ban, I think that this might be a sign that the haitian state is starting to wake up from its deep slumber, a sign that it's not willing to let its citizens be poisoned by other countries' trash. I know that I could be crucified for saying this, but I think that it's time for the dominican businessmen to stop relying so much on what the state can do for them, and to start modernizing their production process, because they have to understand that, on the international arena, the rules that they are acustomed to do not apply when competing with the multinational sharks out there. Plus, the dominican state needs to stop its condescending and hypocrite attitude when dealing with Haiti and start to treat that country as an equal.
From: Haiti
Lautaro,My post 1st post was deleted, I guess it went beyond the rules. I initially commended you for such a great post in which your observation of the T. L. scheme to not completely break away from France. Too bad Napoleon didn't want to accept an L from negros. I want to know why so many dominicans are quick to throw their patriotism in the air when it comes to haiti and not write,speak out about how spain raped the people and the lands resources. I will not delve into history too much but you and Jemesouviens made excellent points. But here comes the billion dollar question, Why aren't dominicans & haitians fighting to overcome there differences and make mends with each other ? Both of the nations people were brought to the island and are products of european powers expanding in the new world looking for resources. If we cease to see each other (mainly dominicans) as the enemy we can both overcome issues that are forcing both nations to leave the island.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, reparations would rebuild the whole island (still independent nations) IF the haitian & dominican government manage that money not holding my breath. What happen to that campaign? Haven't you noticed Aristide was escorted out of the country by the friends of haiti during the 200 years anniversary. Another bofetada to haiti and her people that they will never be allowed to tell their story with dignity to the world. How an ill equipped slaves with nothing but courage defeated the strongest empire at that time and made her go broke that La France had to sell her territories in the mid-west (Louisiana Purchase) for a bargain to the US of A. The Liberator of SA, Simon Bolivar took refuge in haiti until he can regroup (ammunition & provided with haitian soldiers) to return to fight against the spaniards. Now how would reparations from france to haiti help the DR? I will let a few ponder on that a tad.
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Jan 2008 4:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The persistence of this "haitian enemy" scam might be explained because of the interest groups that are profitting from that divisiveness, mr. jabao. The interest groups have been (and I think always will be) the bane of the existence our island. Look at how the different governments of the DR have neglected to solve the countries problems of transportation and electricity. Why? because of the political power of the interest groups hidden behind the maintainance of the status quo. In my opinion, the same reasoning might be at work behind the troubled state of the Haiti/DR relations. By making everything that have some semblance of a binational agenda a thing of taboo, these groups have achieved an unbounded level of freedom from which they can keep carrying out all their dirty business (smuggling of weapons, drugs, field slaves, etc.) as they please.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
I believe that the reparation money would give Haiti the justice that they been denied for over 200 years. what occured in 1822 is quite simply a "Robbery". Aristide was right to demand the Haitian people's money back. I believe that if the legal preceeding went through,Haiti would have won without a doubt......But at the same time France would never pay them back. The main reason why theres no talk of this anymore is simply because the Haitian government is afraid that a repeat of 2004 will happen again.
From: Haiti
Laurtaro, hmmm? very interesting...The haitian scare "el cuco" that wants to pillage the dominincan state have served haitian elites & dominicans elites. The more chaos and division among the mass(poor & illiterate) haitians & dominicans their pockets are getting fatter. BTW, do you really think the band of poultry hasn't created a black mark. Once the dominican people realize they have been dooped by their government which the haitian mass already know but can't do anything about then things will remain the same. Lionel Fernandez obsession with the metro is literally blinding him from the true necessities of the domincan people. Préval has his hands literally tied behind his back since the elite business are stringing him along for the personal gain but relations between Haiti & DR has improved with the two presidents.
From: Haiti
J'mesouviens, it wasn't robbery rather extortion. If you don't pay up we'll move in and take you out. Don't allow patriotism to blurr your thought process. Aristide demanding reparation was his death sentence. Don't get me wrong it was an excellent idea but the way he went about it was suicide. One doesn't go against super powers with no back up. We aren't fighting for liberty physically rather mental & economical freedom. I would of preferred him demonstrate to the world the skeleton in the closet meaning humiliating la france in front of the world of their horrendous acts. If you can't get the world to empathize with your struggle then you've already lost the battle. Besides, Aristide was into some shady deals which is steal effecting haiti at present and if he doesn't stay quiet he'll be sharing a prison cell along Ketant,Quirino, and others. The thing we haven't realize that it's nothing but business while making the poor feel they are part of something. Corruption 101.
From: Haiti
The campaign should reflect on how La France literally threaten the young nation by docking ships of haiti's shores if they didn't not pay for property damages "freedom of slaves". It's a business but we are too indulge in fighting with words and weapons rather than a pen & contracts. We haitians have been made a martyr of what can and will happen to you if you dare defy imperialism. To the point we've fallen on death ears to the international community (friends of haiti) and ridiculed by are bethrens in the region especially our dominican brothers. We need to rekindle the reparation movement in a way that we can grab attention of the citizens of the world. Documents of La france torturing slaves and constantly trying to take back their property and proof of payments unti the debt was settled which indirectly caused haiti to plummet to a state of poverty. This would force La france to rebuild haiti like like Marshall Plan built Europe or face shame amongst the world.
Written by: Lautaro, 24 Jan 2008 9:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Maybe if Haiti did that reparations campaigned allied with other colonial victims of la france like Algeria and Vietnam then it would really mean something on the world's media, specially on the Algerian case, where the french army was inmensely brutal against the civilian population (I have heard that it was there that Jean Marie Le Pen did his "apprenticeship" on fascism). By the way, have any of you read the book "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon, an author from Martinique who was the preeminent thinker of the 20th century on the issue of decolonization and the psychopathology of colonization?
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Jabao, I hope you didn’t take my comments with a grain of salt; I just couldn’t let that “typical Dominican women” comment go( although sometimes, it can be true), without saying something in return. I’m sorry; that Dominican today, took down ur response, before I could read it(I bet it was really out there since it got deleted lol). The “Little Haiti” comment was made by Cuban friends awhile back,(I don’t live in Miami) when I told them that I was going to(Dinner) little Haiti with my Haitian friends. I call for a truce, and offer up my apologies ,for my comments: I usually don’t take cheap shots, but I guess this British weather is affecting my brain chemistry( how can these people survive in this gloomy environment; I have yet to see the sun).
From: United Kingdom
On a positive note, I know; I have always been a pessimist in analyzing Haiti prospects for the future,but a recent e-mail from one of friends from college has changed my mind. My friend(Haitian) is a civil engineer(has his masters) one of the smartest people I have had the pleasure of meeting. He was informing me on his intentions of moving to Haiti full time, if Haiti can continue to capitalize on valuable human capital it possesses abroad maybe there is hope for Haiti’s virility ,and viability in the years to come. I have not been in Haiti in about 18 months so I can’t speak to the progress on the ground directly.From a investors perspective, Haiti is ripe; there’s are countless of legitimate money making opportunities that can be exploited, but as Mr. Jabao states the lack of infrastructure (financial or other wise) is the main hydrous (that along with political stability) in foreign investment.
From: United Kingdom
Haiti getting reparations would be in my opinion, a slam dunk: there ample historical, cultural, and economic basis for such an action. I wonder who has jurisdiction in this kind of matters?
From: United Kingdom
Take Jacmel for instance;the land is prime for high end coffee growing(you should see how some people here spend on blue mountain coffee), so me and friends decided to give it a go; prospects looked good on paper relatively low start up, low overhead ,good connections with the government,plus my connections in the commodities and imports industry, but the political instability destroyed any chance of success, before we could move on to financing. I believe the plan can now be turned in to a cooperative for poor farmers. Maybe, I’ll contribute to Dominican Today in article about the 2 I‘s(initiative,innovation) and the New growth Theory it would include such high lights as crowding out effect, and economic development in the DR and most importantly CHANGE.” Success represents the 1 percent of your work that results from the 99 percent that is called failure.”
Soichiro Honda, founder, Honda motor company
From: Dominican Republic
Black and mulatto are found everywhere in Dominican life: Our president is mulatto, our secretary of the Armed Forces and the Chief of Police are mulatto, several TV news anchorman and women are black and/or mulato (check CDN and RDN). Several judges are black/mulatto, several professors (universities and high schools) are black/mulatto, etc.
But the author metioned the picture of light skin people in billboards, magazines, and some TV shows. That is the author is confusing what the capitalists and commerce people do to make a buck! The images shown in different media is driven by the capitalists and not necessarily the government or the society. The capitalists do what sells and they are selling an image that the consumers want! It does not mean that the consumers are racist nor they are racially discriminating. SEPARATE CAPITALISM FROM THE REAL IMAGE WHERE BLACK/MULATTO ARE HOLDING POWERFUL GOVERNMENTAL AND PRIVATE SECTOR JOBS! AND THAT IS THE PLAIN TRUTH! DR IS DIVERSIFIED
From: Dominican Republic
AntonioJ
The spanish did not introduced slavery into DR between 1860 and 1865! Stop lying!
1817 Spain signs a treaty with England agreeing to end the Spanish slave trade north of the equator immediately, and south of the equator in 1820.
Written by: antonioj, 26 Jan 2008 12:16 AM
From: Canada, home safe
I would disagree with GW 's argument for the simple fact that society as whole play a role as we relate to each other on a daily basis, it's obvious and a fact to all us, that there is a great imbalance within DR with respect to full equal opportunity for all his citizens.
I would differ to say that the advertisement are being pushed deliberately, but not necessarily reflective of the population over-all
There is no doubt such attitude was fostered over time and now in 2008 there is a pressing need for real reform to start, any responsible goverment should respond to such chalenge
1. Revising DR & Haitian history
2.TV ad
3. Mandate change
4.Educate
DR have to prosper want it or not some people may be longing for the old days, but it was the past surely, there was error committed I am sure we all know by now. The author keep emphazing race black and mulatto... calling the current president a mulatto is a long shot...I think light skin black or mix is more appropriate
From: Dominican Republic
EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY IS ONLY MANDATED FOR PRIMARY SCHOOL. OTHER SCHOOLING CAN NOT BE MANDATED (SECONDARY AND UNIVERSITY) UNLESS A DICTATORSHIP OR SOCIALISM IS IMPOSED. WHEN POOR PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOCIETY HAS THE DUTY TO MAKE AN ENGINEER OR SCIENTISTS OR LAWYER OUT THE CHILDREN. THAT IS A CHOICE TO BE MADE BY THE CHILDREN AND THEIR PARENTS. THE GOVERNMENT OFFERS MILITARY OPPORTUNITIES FOR THOSE NOT CHOOSING ACADEMICS. SOME POOR PEOPLE DROP ACADEMICS ALTOGETHER AND PURSUIT TO PLAY BASEBALL AS WAY TO MOVE UP FINANCIALLY (OTHERS MIGRATE WHILE OTHER RESORTS TO DRUGS/VIOLENCE/ROBBERY)
JOBS OPPORTUNITIES DEPENDS ON EDUCATION/EXPERIENCE. JOBS OFFERS DEPEND ON ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. DR DOES NOT HAVE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH (JOBS AVAILABLE) TO OFFER JOBS TO THE THOUSANDS OF GRADUATES GENERATED EVERY YEAR! EVEN THE SUPEPOWER, THE U. S. HAS UNEMPLOYMENT, POVERTY, HOMELESS, AND NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. SOME DON'T IMPOSE YOUR UTOPIA ON DR!
From: Haiti
Frank, no apologies needed. We can sit here and type negative stereotypes all day. I am surprise that you are not aware of the stereotypes we haitians have towards the dominican people. Ok, ya I don't want this to go sour. I am very optimistic about Haiti my beautiful country but I have to take my emotion and pride to see the current situation. BTW, dominican republic economy needs haiti and imo one can't function without the other. As we can see with the poultry industry the DR don't know what to do due to the band. I think it is time for the dominican republic to respect big brother Haiti. Now regarding reparations, I think haiti has a strong case. Haiti was never late in making payments and literally went broke. Compaigning how france not only enslaved the people but force haiti to pay for its independence. We actually fought than after beating the opponent was force to reward him. The DR's economy is doing ok but if corruption continue to reign & the metro which is
From: Haiti
going to force people out of work and in my opinion will not decrease congestion enough. I personally think the investment should've been towards education. We'll have to wait in see if Lionel Fernandez prove the non believers wrong. BTW, how would reparation to haiti effect the DR? If haitians and dominicans don't end this play ground fight I think that we'll miss the bus and lose out to central america. And if Castro cranks tourism in Cuba will effect the DR big time. As u mentioned the instability in haiti makes it hard for foreignors to invest but I encourage more dominicans to invest there. Instead of taking a yola to the PR, they can find a gold mine just by crossing the border..
Written by: antonioj, 28 Jan 2008 2:18 PM
From: Canada, home safe
I think the authors GREENWAVE, have totally missed my point again as usual, but he preferred to dissect bits and pieces to make his argument,
You want may want to re-read my previous post above.
The Haitian communities are well aware of your distorted believes, and the wrong fact of Haitian and DR history that you seem to be carrying around on many forum such as topix under Haiti (forum) ect… You have chosen to describe Haitians the most heinous way as possible to top it all with the most foul and grotesque language, fortunately you will not be able to that in that forum.
Now, Mr GREENWAVE I invite you to bring up your lies and your cohorted fact in that forum if so believe they are real, Sir you can do that now simply cut and paste less the heinous languages of course.
From: United Kingdom
AntonioJ, can you elaborate on what exactly is wrong with Greenwaves argument.
Mr. Jabao, I’m well aware of the stereotypes that Haitians have for Dominicans(and vice versa); I just don’t think this is a place for it to be expressed,(as was a lot of what said)in any form, this was supposed to be an intelligent discourse and look to what it has been reduced to.
Written by: antonioj, 29 Jan 2008 10:51 PM
From: Canada, home safe
The author Greenwave: Have posted this information on the topix forum (haiti) which I found not to be totally accurate. I would appreciate the input, and commentary from some history bluff here.
Let me apologize for the language and the tone which typical of Mr Greenwave who claim to be from the Dominican Republic.
I quote
"
FROM 1860 TO 1865, SPAIN DID NOT INTRODUCED SLAVERY IN RD! THAT IS THE TRUTH!
1817 Spain signs a treaty with England agreeing to end the Spanish slave trade north of the equator immediately, and south of the equator in 1820.
1801 Racial make up of STO DGO:
16,000 slaves
85,000 free mulato
65,000 Spanish decendents
Tousshit (Loverture) invaded to free 16,000 and to enslave 85,000 and to expell or kill 65,000! What a freaking trade is that! No one called him, asked for him, told him to invade!
Haitian invasions of STO DGO/HAITI ESPANOL/RD
1801, 1805, 1822, 1845, 1849, and 1855!
" I unquote
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 8:03 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Notwithstanding his offensive vocabulary (which I find annoying and disheartening), mr. greenwave was almost right on his numbers, mr. antonioj, the only part of it where he would got it wrong being the one about the spanish descendents numbers, which were not 65,000, but actually 40,000. You'll ask how that could have been possible? I'll answer you that, simply put, if there was one feature that distinguished the Spanish colonies from the French, English and Dutch ones on the Caribbean was that, on the Spanish ones, the population that was enslaved never surpassed in numbers the one that was free (from the extermination of the natives onwards), as it was the norm on the dependencies of the other three powers. That would be one of the reasons that would explain why the slave uprisings were so easily quelled on the Spanish dominions, the other woud be that, because of the pirate raids, the colonials regularly employed the slaves on the colonies defense, freeing them in the process.
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 8:15 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The main reason that would explain the lack of a solid majority on the part of the slave population on the Spanish Caribbean would be that Spain considered that the only profittable use that it could derive from its Caribbean dominions was in making them impregnable military strongholds as a safeguard from which they could keep safe their continental dominions (Mexico, Peru,etc.) , which were the jewels of its crown, with their annual treasure fleets. A fact that in itself would explain why the chief authority on Cuba, Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico would always be a military captain general while on the continent would be civil bureaucratic corps in which the colonial viceroy was only a figurehead with little to no power.
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 8:46 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The sugar industry would only be considered as a proffitable venture on the Spanish Caribbean after the metropolis lost its continental holdings after the Independence Wars of the XIX century. And even then, the increase on the slave population on Cuba and Puerto Rico would only be minimal, because the encroachments of the british navy, which introduced a ban against the slave trade on 1807, made any large importation of slaves on Cuba and Puerto Rico a very hazardous enterprise (Hispaniola was by then under the haitian banner). As for the planned reintroduction of slavery on Santo Domingo on 1860-1865, this project would only remain on paper, mr. antonioj, because, after the european mass migrations during the haitian rule coupled with their importation of african americans, the coloured population would greatly surpass the european descended one, a fact that made the spanish authorities realize the sheer impossibility and foolhardiness of even implementing this mad project. (cont.)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 8:50 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) In fact, the rumors about the reinstallment of slavery, coupled with the oppressive taxes to the economical activities (the cultivation of tobacco on Cibao, in particular) would be the main causes that would ignite the War of Restoration that would end in the final expulsion of the spaniards from the island in 1865. At the end of the day, the only lesson that the upper classes of Spain, the United States and Brazil learned of the Haitian Revolution was not that slavery is a crime against humanity, rather, they'd learn that, if they wanted to practice slavery with some measure of safety, they would necessarily require a racial bulwark against the numerical superiority of the enslaved people (i.e. the existance of a white proletariat, a thing that didn't exist on colonial Haiti), that's why the USA and Brazil were so desperate in adopting their measures favouring mass european inmigration to their respective lands, trying to imitate the Spanish example on Cuba and PR.
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 10:48 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
As you can see, Trujillo would not be the first one favouring mass european inmigration in order to "whiten" the country (as some bad propaganda over there likes to portray), because, as in everything else over his rule and personal tastes, he was only copying his overlords up north, the ones which are now gratituously pointing fingers at us with racist charges. Specially some politicians on the Democratic party, which are trying in this way to wash their hands on the role that their party played on the permanence of slavery in the US, and later, after the Civil War 1863-1865, the establishment of the Jim Crow laws on their "Redeemer" governments.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
This is a great discussion, but I feel that focusing on historical minutia is sometimes counter productive; what does it matter that there were 40K or 65K EU decendents, when we have oppression today? And while the discussion has focussed on xenophobia, lets not neglect the other forms of discrimination - gender, race (which is related but in addition to xenophobia), physical, mental, class, age, religion... Focusing on one form of oppression hides other forms. We need to recognize the the far reaching nature of discrimination, and combat it in EVERY of its manifestation. Today we may be discriminating against Haitians, but tomorrow it could be Tall people. Only by fighting for the realization of our human rights and the dev't of independent institutions that will safeguard these, can we start moving forward.
BTW - anyone up for a "salon" in Sto Dgo this week or next? if you are, send me an email - baldoria23@gmail.com and we can meet up. Let me know which day is good for you.
From: Haiti
What a great discussion and my gosh Laurtaro your expertist not on the history but the cause and effects makes you a very intelligent man. My gosh, I am dumbfounded that you've dismantled the motives of our history which shape our thinking in the present. Now questions, what Trujillo did to try to whiten the dominican republic was nothing new. Majority of Brazil wouldve looked like Angola if they didn't promote (italian,german,portuguese) immgration. The USA also promoted european immigration and today have a problem due to the fact that the new immigrants are from south/central america. I believe Argentina was the only country truly successful with this tactic to whiten the country. To stay on topic if Trujillo didn't promote european immigrants who mostly left but their illegitimate off springs remained on the island, what would be the composition of the DR? Another question many dominicans can't tell if someone is haitian to save there life. If the person isn't dark skin
From: Haiti
cont. then they assume that the person can not be from Haiti. Dominicans identify haitians base on appearance rather accent or mannerism. It is so embedded in the dominican society that haitians are dark skin and working in the labor sector that when one stumble upon a different type of haitian there is complete shock. This rarely happens to the middle/upper class dominicans since many attend school with middle/upper class haitians and do business with each other.
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 2:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I think that the shock comes because the haitian elites, unlike the dominican ones, are not "en el medio" constantly parading their fortunes. A sociologist friend of mine told me once ago that if there's a trait of personality that definitively sets the dominican people apart from other nations is the love of parade, the so called "figureo". This holds true specially on our politicos, which apparently can't live without showing off their fortunes in the face of the public. Also, mr jabao, you'd be surprised (if not a little bit dismayed) about how many facts about Haiti still continue to be enigmas on the popular imaginary of the DR, despite all the books, activities and the like that have been written and celebrated between the two nations. From what I have heard and read about the border areas before Trujillo made his "Kristallnacht" act, the people in the border were in the process of forming a new identity, neither wholly haitian nor dominican, but something new altogether (cont.)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 4:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont..) the so called "rayanos", people that spoke both languages and lived on without any attachments whatsoever to any of the two nations (which by all intends and purposes only exercised their powers on the respective capitals, Santo Domingo and Port-Au-Prince). Those people, by Trujillo's estimation, were a direct threat to his plans of monopolization of the power, wealth and lives of the country, hence the reason behind his act of barbarity. He saw the border not as the place where his power ended, but as the place where it should start.
From: Haiti
Laurato, it is a pleasure reading you a breath of fresh air. They hold allegiance to neither haiti or the DR. Both parties have been neglected by both governments. They are the key players of mending relationship on the island. Trujillo on the other hand hated that part of him and wanted to deplete that out of his mind and his society. The usage of perejil to distinguish who is dominican & haitian doesn't have merit since from my experience dominicans don't pronounce La "RR" nor La "R" as strong as south americans(generalizing) which leaves me to believe it was based on skin tone rather than nationality. The border region is very complicated and intriguing. Do you really think rayanos wanted to form their own republic? Or was it a xenophobic attitude from Trujillo? I wonder if he spoke french or creole? Remember he wasn't accepted in the elite society rather bullied his way into it. Join him or die. Every country tht shares a border will have inter-cultural/mingling
From: Haiti
Unfortunately, Haiti will always be a country of mystery where foreignors usually think way off about this beautiful part of hispaniola. Dominicans in general have know idea of Haiti besides the propaganda and what they see from the media. But I see that there is a change among both groups to learn about each other. In this century I see nothing but improvement between the two. We must respect each other and appreciate the circumstances and sell it to the world and live a better quality of life.
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Jan 2008 10:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I think that the main motivations behind the massacre would be economical and political ones, mr. jabao, even though the racial aspect would come as an added plus for him. Some authors and peasants that survived the dictatorship tell us that many of the rayanos were succesful merchants and cattle ranchers, so much that it's believed that the fortunes of some of them would have had nothing to envy the ones of the elites of Santo Domingo or Port-Au-Prince, so its a given that the tyrant wouldn't have passed the chance to appropiate himself of the gold mine, given his greed. On the political front, this massacre would be a message to the rest of the populace, mainly, it would show that Trujillo, like Louis XIV on the huguenots case, would not tolerate any creed, idiom, or political ideas that were outside his own will. Also, that this would be the end of regionalism and its caudillos' encroachments on the DR governments (i.e. the execution of Desiderio Arias, a caudillo from that zone).
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro you are full of human residue! Always forgetting how Toussaint, Dessaline, and the BOyer tried to africanize STO DGO/EL HAITI ESPANOL/DR by importing africanamericans (1826) to EL HAITI ESPANOL and by either killing or expelling the light skin people of EL HAITI ESPANOL (to mitigate a counter revolution). Now, we have 1.1 millions illegal aliens in DR, all african with the intention of transforming DR into a satellite of Haiti!
Written by: Lautaro, 1 Feb 2008 11:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'm not under any obligation to oblige you, mr. xenophobia-in-action, so, would you please back off? We have to endure enough xenophobic types on this forum already as things are standing now.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
If the the DR is a satellite of any country it's the US. Please try to be cordial. You comments embody the not-so-latent oppressive/discriminatory nature that exists within Dominican Society. HOw would you feel if you were the one being persecuted? Try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. I know that that is virtually impossible for many people, but just try to think of how you would feel if you had to flee your country in search of a better life, and when you get there you found explicit discrimination, fear, and hatred. All you want to do is work and provide your family a better life.
The Dominican identity, regardless of what anyone says, is not natural. Culture is ever evolving, and the introduction of new people just adds to our culture, it doesn't take away. People who argue that it does, are trying to use FEAR to hide indiscrepancies- corruption, drugs, inequality, environmental degradation... So please don't be a foot-soldier for hatred, be one for human rights.
From: Haiti
Bladoria well said and it never dawns to these xenophobic characters that cultures evolve besides europeans/americans coming in droves will continue to keep the balance of DR being a majority mulatto country. There problem solved. BTw, if 11% percent of the blacks in the DR are al haitians then the 16% of europeans are all white foreignors.
Written by: antonioj, 2 Feb 2008 9:55 AM
From: Canada, home safe
I again apologize for Mr Greenwave foul, and offensive language his understanding of the history of the island of Hispanola is not very sophisticated, and is limited to unfortunately to a distorted version that amount to propaganda or anti Haitian, that I hope that is no longer taught in schools.
You will noticed a lot of hates ,and emphasize on race, I have corned him several times in the topix site forum under (Haiti) with his assertion of half true, and lies. He has now decided for good to leave history alone which I think is commendable.
I noticed is back to his old game in the Dominican today forum, there are some very distinguish (estimado)author like : Lautaro, Je me souviens, FrankTheTank, JabaoHaitian to name a few that are very knowledgeable on the subject matter, and can shed some lights for the benefits of this forum and the readers
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro attack the message! Not the messenger! I dare you to disprove to this forum that one of the Haitians goal during the 19th century was to "AFRICANIZE" STO DGO/EL HAITI ESPANOL/DR! I don't come with fancy talking, we want raw data! Now we have 1.1 millions illegal Haitians in DR coming across at the rate of 2,000 per week into DR! DON"T come here and cry racism, discrimination, or caucasianization of DR as the only reality occuring in DR!
I don't need a lawyer wantabe like Antonio! This tactic of attacking, minimizing, demonizing, and treating the messenger like child DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MESSAGE AND ISSUE!
From: Dominican Republic
Baldoria, yes DR is an satellite of the US! BUT you can not deny that 22 % of the DR population has allegience to Haiti! And soon will be economically and politically influenced by Haiti! Don't try to camouflage one problem (the problem with Haiti) with the problem with the US or we will never solve any problem!
Use your heads! Don't mask one problem with another! The invasion of Haitians represent a threat to the identity of DR! IF you have allegiance to Haiti, then move to Haiti but don't impose your Haitianization to DR! GO HOME!
From: Dominican Republic
Has Haiti ethnic distribution or culture evolved? The only thing that Haiti is being dropping is its African practice of Voodoo! Now they are either Catholics or Protestan. Other than that, Haiti has remain the same for 200 year!
From: Dominican Republic
1-127 Haitians are born in DR every month
2->17,000 Haitians attend dominican universities
3-1.1 millions illegal haitians reside in DR: They use resources and create garbage
4-Most Haitian minors (those that don't beg) attend Dominican primary schools for free
5-The Dominican VP announced that the Haitians (in agriculture/tourism/construction) qualify for SFS.
6- Nearly 2,000 haitians cross into DR illegaly per week (violating 285)
7-Remember 1801, 1805, 1822, 1845, 1849, and 1855!
Excuse me and you want us to be tolerant and blind to this unwelcomed, unplanned, and untiming invasion? Suck my pipe!
From: Dominican Republic
The US was known as the land of the immigrants. Just check the US reaction to the different waves of immigrations (Asian 1880's, Hispanics 1920's and after 1950's, etc.) with all the amendments to immigrations law meant to stop further immigration and change to the racial and/or ethnic distribution of the US! The US clearly has mechanisms (reactions) for controlling the influx of foreign values, culture, attitudes and race into the US! If you don't think this is not truth! Read the history of the immigration laws in the US! Today, politicians are again reacting and I don't blame them, since unwelcome invasions change the racial, value, and political landscape of the hosting country. Ask Italy, Spain, South Africa, Argentina, Costa Rica, EL Salvador, Canada, UK, Israel, etc.!
From: Haiti
I can't stop laughing..now we have a dominican messiah to deliver the message. Una preguntita messiah..Can you tell me when will this invasion take place. I also suggest that you get in the african garment industry. Alot haitians wearing dashiki suits speaking creole will go to stores assume everyone is to accommodate their analphabete behinds "OU pale kreyol" and watch the haitian channel 24/7 and never learn spanish. Who cares 1.1million haitians in the DR no need to learn the language of the country. Play compas music loud and wearing haitian flags on their rear mirror. Change this to the dominican and what do we have..I feel sorry for PR I remember when Puerto Rico was a nice white country..ahora lleno de negros leeching on the welfare system living in the ghetto...chiquito DR... I see your point..
From: Dominican Republic
Haitians are also migrating with the Dominicans toward PR!
From: Dominican Republic
In 1980, there were a little more than 200,000 haitians in DR. Since the 1980's (thanks to the stu_pid PRD), the haitian invasion began and now we have 1.1 millions illegal haitians in DR. There are estimates of 0.9 millions with false Dominican papers (Cedula and Birth Certificates)!
Attack the message if you want to be listen to! Your message on the Haitianization of DR as you mentioned about the Haitian TV channel broadcasting in Dominican airwaves, the imposition of Creole language on Dominican armed forces, church, and others, etc. are examples that the DR customs and languages are being eroded!
I am not a messiah but your worst enemy!
From: Dominican Republic
Another lie! DR needs Haiti for its economic survival?
Countries we export to: US (72.6 %), Taiwan, South Korea, Haiti and Belgium (in that order)
Countries we import from: US (46.9 %), Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, etc.
Tourism (Nearly $2 billions)
Remittances (Nearly $2.8 billions)
Only Dajabon, Elias Pina and Independence will suffer from a Haitian embargo! STOP THE LIES!
From: Dominican Republic
Export: Ferronickel, Sugar cane, reinforcing steel bars, rum, bananas, cacao, cement, etc.
to US, Holland, South Korea, Haiti, etc.
Written by: antonioj, 2 Feb 2008 6:53 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Greenwave said:
OUR BIGGEST COMMERCIAL PARTNERS ARE THE U.S., SOUTH KOREA, TAIWAN
BELGIUM,HAITI,
The truth
below:
“
In such a case, according to Homero Figueroa of Diario Libre, then Haiti would be the nation's second largest trading partner. The latest report issued by the Center for Exports and Investment (CEI-DR) shows that Dominican exports have passed the US$1.5 billion mark for the first time, a significant improvement over 2006.”
From a DR site
http://www.dr1.com/trade/articles/262/1/Haiti... Greenwave said:
IT WILL CREATE A PARASITIC RELATION BETWEEN A PEOPLE PRODUCING TRIBE LIKE HAITI (8.4 MILLIONS IN HAITI AND 3.8 MILLION HAITIANS IN THEIR DIASPORA)AND ANOTHER POOR COUNTRY LIKE THE DR. COMMERCE WILL ENCOURAGE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION OF HAITIANS TOWARDS DR CREATING DISPLACEMENT (EMPLOYMENT AND HABITATION), PUBLIC WELFARE (HOSPITAL, HEALTH CARE, HOUSING, AND CAFETERIA PROGRAMS), ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION (TREE FELLING, GARBAGE GENERATION BY THE HAITIANS, ETC.).
Written by: antonioj, 2 Feb 2008 6:54 PM
From: Canada, home safe
cont..
The truth below:
This is Greenwave personal racist, ignorant view and commentary and does not reflect any economic reality Trade is good for the all island it create wealth and good relation.
I must point out that Mister Greenwave is in no way qualify or an expert in economical matter and from my humble opinion did not pass even high school economic
Excerpt steven M.Suranovic
“
The higher price received for each country's comparative advantage good would lead each country to specialize in that good. To accomplish this, labor would have to move from the comparative disadvantaged industry into the comparative advantage industry. This means that one industry goes out of business in each country. However, because the model assumes full employment and costless mobility of labor, all of these workers are immediately gainfully employed in the other industry.(
“
From the site of international trade theory and policy
http://internationalecon.com/Trade/Tch40/T40-... Written by: antonioj, 2 Feb 2008 6:56 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Cont..
Greenwave said:
COMMERCE BETWEEN HAITI AND DR WILL MEAN THE DESTRUCTION OF DR! WE WERE DOING FINE WITHOUT HAITI BEFORE 1980! AFTER 1980 THE HAITIAN POPULATION IN DR GREW FROM 200,000 TO 2 MILLIONS (TODAY'S ESTIMATE 1.1 MILLION ILLEGALS + 0.9 MILLION WITH FALSE CEDULA AND/OR BIRTH CERTIFICATES).
The truth below:
The truth is, Haitians have been coming and living in DR way before DR was known as DR the figure 200,000 in 1980 that the author Greenwave is quoting is fictive as himself.
Excerpt by Michael Deibert
This release came after September 2005, when a legal team that included Sonia Pierre, successfully argued before the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that the Dominican Republic was in violation of Articles 3, 5, 19, 20 and 24 of the American Convention on Human Right Pact of San Jose, Costa Rica in denying citizenship to two young girls, Dilcia Yean and Violeta Bosico, born in the Dominican Republic. That decision also reinforced the fact that, in its
Written by: antonioj, 2 Feb 2008 6:57 PM
From: Canada, home safe
denial of citizenship to persons born within its borders, the Dominican Republic was in violation of Article 11 of its own constitution,, which guarantees Dominican citizenship to the all those born within its territory save for those “in transit” and the children of foreign diplomats. The Fernández government has said that, though it has begun paying damages to the two girls, it intends to disregard the commission’s expansive ruling.
What has been the broader response of the Fernández government to these incidents ? A call to the rule of law ? An appeal to Dominicans to make their vibrant, culturally rich, economically viable nation a place where those of whatever descent and whatever skin color can live together ? Unfortunately, no.
Link
The Struggle for Haiti (Seven Stories Press). His blog can be read at www.michaeldeibert.blogspot.com .
From: Dominican Republic
Article 11 of the Haitian constitution says that the embryo of haitians parents is haitian no matter where the embryo is born. Article 15 of the Haitian constitution says that Haiti does not recognize double citizenship! Therefore, DR can not remove the Haitian citizenship automatically impose on the children of Haitians and impose the Dominican one! This violates Haitians constitution (Art. 11 and 15). Second: Article 11 of the DR constitution says that people in "transit" their children born in DR are not Dominicans! Illegal Haitians never applied for visa or residency, therefore, they are not interested in Dominican citizenship and still maintain Haitian loyalty! We don't reward violators with citizenship. Our SCJ dictated the illegals are in "transit" because they never regularized their situation in DR! Those haitians giving birth in DR must be deported!
From: Dominican Republic
Modern Haitian migration to the Dominican Republic dates from the late nineteenth century, when increasing North American capital boosted sugar production.
Since the 1950s, a series of bilateral agreements has regulated legal Haitian immigration. In the late 1970s and the early 1980s, the government contracted for 10,000 to 20,000 temporary Haitian workers annually for the sugarcane harvest. Observers believed that an equal number of Haitians entered illegally. The 1960 census enumerated slightly under 30,000 Haitians. By 1980 estimates suggested the total number of Haitians residing permanently or semipermanently was on the order of 200,000, of whom 70,000 were workers.
From: Dominican Republic
READ BELOW! DR EXPORT!
http://www.cedopex.gov.do/estadisticas/reportes/pais.aspExportaciones por País de Destino
Título del Reporte : Exportaciones por País de Destino
Resultados para : Nacionales
Fecha Inicio : 2007/1/1
Fecha Final : 2007/12/29
Cod. Pais Pais de Destino Kilogramos Valor FOB US$
Total General = 3,477,707,198.87 $2,218,729,975.87
249 ESTADOS UNIDOS 471,231,436.90 596,922,248.75
919 HOLANDA 35,412,055.65 354,979,806.27
215 CHINA, REPUBLICA POPULAR 33,030,175.43 163,580,120.12
341 HAITI 344,914,423.44 154,609,707.33
190 COREA DEL SUR 11,558,292.00 135,163,035.36
611 PUERTO RICO 281,762,142.47 111,571,702.74
87 BELGICA 72,950,865.81 111,460,243.57
245 ESPANA 31,931,015.32 82,744,158.74
399 JAPON 6,837,781.20 72,129,769.97
628 REINO UNIDO 164,816,230.76 62,333,179.02
218 CHINA-TAIWAN (FORMOSA) 149,143,017.93 37,912,684.61
From: Dominican Republic
ASSTONIO DOESN'T KNOW
What happens to salaries when you inundate a labor market with cheap labor, it goes down. Similarly the quality of that work goes down! Most Haitians work for $1 dollar a day. Dominicans demand at least $6 dollars a day. Who do you think employers will hire? Especially in construction, agriculture, and tourism where margins are so narrow (due to competition) that one way to to optimize profits is lowering cost (LABOR COST). That is what the Haitians are doing, they show up and take whatever the empoyer offers! And what happens, those jobs are not longer available to the native population because they can not support themselves and even less their families.
There are not enough jobs for dominicans to work in two jobs to get enough salaries. This displacement of Dominicans by the Haitians (Haiti overpopulation is killing the whole island: women give birth to 4 to 6 children) is extremely dangerous to the survival of DR. That is the w
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
lol.....Greenwave is a very funny character. Only reason your saying all those racist and hurtful things about Haitians, is becuause you dont know any.....You know what, I think that if more Dominicans had Haitian friends they would not be demonizing Haitians like Greenwave just did. Listen my friend(Greenwave), if you want I can teach you some French and Creole. You might as well know them....Most likely your kids well probably be speaking them soon...Or even better, they might fall in love with a Haitian. Let me know when your in New York...I'll bring you some "Griot and Bannan", with a glass of Barbancourt on the rocks!!!
From: United States
Greenwave one thing for you, cheaper labor does not mean lower quality of work. I do not know where you got that idea from. As to blaming haitians for DR's problems, i think that you are overexaggerating. The quality of work of haitians, would be comparable or higher quality than native dominicans, because haitians have an incentive of working harder. Haitians are unwanted by dominicans, and they have a lot more to prove than a dominican. Before a man goes for cheap labor, they do take into consideration the quality of the work. Economics isn't based on things that are cheap, you need a good mix of cheap and reliable labor. If you want to deport all the haitians be my guess. Just make sure u kiss the economy goodbye, because the business owners can careless about dominican republic, its about their profit margins. At the end of the day, the dollar prevails.
From: United States
One last thing greenwave, try to step outside the box and ask yourself a question. Should haitians be blamed for DRs problems? Are they to be blamed for the lack of funds going to education, for a metro being built in Sto Domingo, and for the increase in violence and crime? Should they be blamed from this invasion you name, the last time i checked, the dominican government openned its doors and wanted people during harvesting season to do the work. I guess if dominicans were hard working and willing to work for cheap, the soo called haitian invasion would never happen. Cheap labor is part of capitalism's methodology, u need to have cheap labor to make your profit margins. If the country cant supply cheap labor no need to do business in DR. Because there are tons of other countries that can provide the same services and products DR can provide. At the end of the day, you can't blame one group of people for a whole countries problem.
From: United States
Mr lautaro, you are THE MAN!!! I wish that some of our posters, who think that they are authorities on subjects, knew a millionth of what you know. that way, we could benefit from knowledge, not nonsensical emotional rants. thank you for continuing to post.
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Feb 2008 4:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Thank you mr. dreadlocks. I owe it all to an almost insatiable thirst for knowledge coupled with a critical and open mind, if you may excuse me for being a little immodest. From my point of view, the posters that are spewing venom against Haiti should be very careful when approaching an issue as sensitive as this, because, if there's one lesson that a human being should always bear in mind is that nothing on this life ever remains fixed, that is, that if someone is currently being economically succesful in comparison with his/her neighbour, there's no single law establishing that this condition could not be reversed. That if someone sows hatred against one's neighbour, that's exactly what that someone might harvest when the bad times hit upon his/her door. That's my humble opinion.
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Lautaro, If I may join Dreadlocks, in congratulating you, and your steady stream of brilliance. I long ago believed that most of the intellectuals in the DR had moved on . I suppose, that the “Brain Drain” missed you .
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
lautaro, its people like you that make me believe that Hatians and Dominicans can one day coexist with each other. I want you to know that your words are golden and they inspire me to find ways in which to break the misconception that many of your people view my people by. I invited this Dominican girl to meet my family the other day, and I saw in her eyes that changed her perception of Haitian people because she was told something different in the D.R. Your postings had an influence on what I did. Thank you..."zanmi Mwen"
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2008 7:46 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Veering slightly off topic, what exactly is a Griot, mr. jemesouviens1804? because you have mentioned it a couple of times already when mentioning dishes and I'm curious about it.
Written by: antonioj, 5 Feb 2008 10:07 AM
From: Canada, home safe
"Veering slightly off topic, what exactly is a Griot, mr. jemesouviens1804? because you have mentioned it a couple of times already when mentioning dishes and I'm curious about it.
"
Griot is "chicharron or massa", bannan is "platano frito". I enjoy reading your posting Mr Lautaro keep them coming.
This will fall under finger food on the go or "comida para picar in Haiti"
I am sure by now everyone have notice the posting of Mr Greenwave, fortunately does not represent the opinion of the majority of the Dominicans. He's an extreme case that should be left alone.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2008 10:13 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Thanks for the info, mr. antonioj. Mow I'll be off to find some of those dishes to give me a "jartura" of them. :-)
From: United States
Mr lautaro, no need to apologise for immodesty; i dont think anyone here finds you a bit conceited.besides, Muhammad Ali one said¨it is not boasting if you can back it up¨. you are a fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and , as we all know, guys like yourself, baldoria, frankthetank and mr rancier, among others, are sometimes overshadowed by the noise emanating from some of the internet hooligans in our midst.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Griot is a spicy fried pork, which is the most popular dish of all Haitians. "Bannan", is fried plantains. I reccomend that you try some. It"s very good.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Sounds like - carnitas fritas con platanos fritos
From: Dominican Republic
Anonymous,
Lack of education affect quality. In DR, several construction had collapsed due to improper reinforcement with steel bar! Also the wrong type of sand (aggregate) were used with cement to connect blocks that have lead to the easy felling of walls! Recently, we heard of horses (handled by Haitians) defecating over fruits and roots to be sold in markets. We also learned that your compadres leave their human waste in the construction area they work in.
One lesson we learned when comparing the same product made by Chinese and Americans the quality is starkingly different. Not only the fabrication but also the choice of materials used. From that experience, we learned that if you don't educate and/or pay workers competitively, both routine, low moral, and even sabotage will plague your industry! Automation was then used by some (like Japan) to counter the amount of defects (imprecision and inaccuracy) associated with human mistakes and escalating cost of salaries and
From: Dominican Republic
Several tactics have been used by investors and employers to increase profits. Relocation, controlled immigration, automation, innovation, monopoly, selective regulation, ignoring the environment, outsourcing to others, importing from other, etc. The question is not blaming all the corruption and missguided policies of the Dominican governments on the Haitians. What is being asked and demanded is controlled immigration for labor that does not pay competitively! I am quite sure that you don't support the wild crossing of the border by anyone and flood the market and offering doing jobs for lesser salary (just look how the Mexican are disrupting the construction industry in the US). WHAT IT IS BEING ASKED IS CONTROLLED IMMIGRATION UNDER A CAREFUL PLAN. ADDING 2 MILLION HAITIANS TO DR (1.1 E6 ILLEGAL + 0.9 E6 WITH FALSE DOCUMENTS) THAT ARE POOR, SICK, UNDEDUCATED, AND VIOLENT DOES NOT HELP DR NOT MATTER WHAT THEY DO!
From: Dominican Republic
Yeah so much cheap labor and highly skilled labor in Haiti, Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador, DR, etc. that employers prefer to put their business in China/India! Hiring illegals is done not because of high skill but because they are CHEAP!
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 6 Feb 2008 2:28 AM
From: United States
greenwave, I support your agenda in controlling illegal Haitian migration to the DR because we Americans have our own agenda in sending back all of the poor, sick, uneducated, violent Dominicans back to DR. That class of Dominicans do not help the USA in anyway.
From: Dominican Republic
The only difference Johnusa is that there are less than 21,000 illegal Dominicans in the US! IF you are talking about legal Dominican criminals, of course they need to be punished and then, just the way you like it, send the criminal back to the country of original citizenship so that he or she can exercise all the garbage learned in the US! Rock on brother! Keep sending us your graduates in criminalology and we'll shoot them in DR! By the way, take your Navy off the Persian gulf and put them back in the Caribbean and stop the stupid drugs that come through the Caribbean unabbated!
From: Dominican Republic
I wonder how many criminals in hte US are from Russia, Italy, Canada, Colombia, Puerto Rico, Mexico, etc. I wonder why the prohaitians just focus their views on Dominicans? John Can you answer?
Written by: arcatype 
, 8 Feb 2008 5:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Greenwave youre 100% correct most of the pro-haitians on this thread never had set foot in the Dominican Republic. And most likely get their information from pro-haitian websites that are full of innacurate information. And as far as drug-trafficking werent C.I.A officials involved in the drug trade? do you remember the Iran-Contra scandal! i mean look at the banking system in the U.S.A also involved in money laundering. People where theres money to be made even the so called most powerful nation is chasing the dirty buck! stop the hypocrisy.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Beg to differ my friend... many of us are here in the DR are fighting for a more just and equal society. one where these oppressive practices against foreigners, non-whites, women, the aged (and so on), are called out and done-away with.
People, we are called to a higher purpose. Supporting the continued oppression of some of our vulnerable people simple supports and recreated the oppressive systems that maintains many of us in a prostrated situation. Its either Justice for all, or justice for none. Can't you see? Today we are calling for the exclusion of haitians, tomorrow of non-whites, tall people, non-christians, fat people... People remember Nazi- Germany. First it was the Jews, then the Pols, then the Chech, and eventually it was YOU. By safeguarding the rights of our most vulnerable we're fighting for our own Rights. But actually, I fight for the realization of the rights of our most vulnerable people, b/c it's right! It's the type of society I want to fight for.
From: United States
Baldoria, it is always like exhaling forcefully when one reads a post from men such as yourself. as my mother always said: never laugh at a passing hearse. all those in a superior position who support the oppression of certain groups fail to realise that they could be marking time in the queue of the oppressed, dutifully waiting their turn to be ravaged!
From: Haiti
I think we should reunite the whole island and the bs would problably stop.
Written by: Lautaro, 11 Feb 2008 7:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
For all intends and purposes it IS unified, mr. (or miss) Jutland. This "de facto" merging have been brought by the big business of the DR in the way of their constant trafficking of your citizens in order for them to exploit their illegal status paying them the wages of a slave, all this in connivance with the political class of both countries, the dominican one in order to appease said businessmen, and the haitian one in order to have a escape valve for Haiti's social ills. This trafficking have been so rampant that there are parts of the capital and the rest of the country where only kreyol is spoken. The only thing that is left is for both political elites to acknowledge the de facto union and decide details like which of the two will be the ultimate rulers of the island, the official language, the currency to be used, the flag and anthem, the layout of the provinces, the system of weights and measures, the name of the country (Hispaniola, Quisqueya, Haiti or Saint Domingue), etc.
Written by: arcatype 
, 11 Feb 2008 10:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic
jutland2008 and anyone else as for this so called wishful thought of uniting the island i disagree 100%, its time for countries to take care of business and stop being so incompetent. Since the elite's seem to be the ruling class of the world maybe the U.S. and Mexico should become one also how about The European Union maybe it should add on to its union Eastern European countries also part of Sub-Saharan African nations. I mean when will it stop countries need to take control of their affairs you dont solve problems by pinning countries together you solve problems by creating environments through economic cooperation and political stability. The problem in Haiti is basically it's goverment incompetence, corrupt dictators and it's so called elites? to absorb a population of impoverished people is not the answer it's just adding more wood to the fire more people more problems. Mr. Lautaro youre no economic major your opinion is not an amicable point of view for most dominicans.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
Welcome on board arcatype, even with your xenophobic ideas. Joining the island would be almost impossible, given both nationalistic sentiments on both sides of quisqueya. THe Haitians I know are very nationalist and are hee to provide their families a better life. If they could, they would go back to Haiti-- Does this sounds familiar? In case it doesn't it's the sounds like Dominicans going to US, EU, Venezuela... these Dominicans don't HATE the DR, they are just trying to build a better life for their families. ANd when they seek US, EU, or Venezuelan Citizenship, they are not rejecting the DR, they are just becoming more transnational.
I propose that the haitian situation is extremely similar to the DOminicans risiding abroad. So arcatype, , ask why dominicans have to go abroad, take on different citizenships, and maybe you'll understand the situation the Haitians are in.
Written by: Lautaro, 12 Feb 2008 9:31 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
You can't blame the haitians for not wanting to let themselves die, mr. arcatype, even more so when there are greener pastures just a few blocks away from their homes (so to speak). The first rule of life of ANY living being is survival at any cost, and that's something that you, or any other, can not change. Now, if you insist with your ideas, why don't you go and explain them to the Vicinis, Fanjuls and Bisonos of the country (just to name a few), which are the main culprits of the fact that your dreaded nightmare is becoming a reality due to the fact that they care about their bottomless pockets more than whatever fate that may befall this country in the end, and see for yourself the utter contempt that the likes of them hold for your ideas.
From: Haiti
Arcatype, welcome aboard. Well, as a Haitian national, I will try to quench your pet peeves. Most haitians don't want anything to do with the DR and have/will never set foot in the DR. Why do dominicans acquire US/Venezuelan.etc nationalities. To be more specific why in the hell would I want dominican nationality when both countries can't acquire visas but a few places. I will answer this question with a question.Why so many dominicans take yolas to Puerto Rico? Why do dominicans have so many kids (like bunnies) in the US/Common Wealth and have the government take care of them? I wonder why illegal dominicans demand rights in USA/Spain etc. when they have gotten more out of the deal. Im my pysche & most haitians DR is another country very similar to ours but SEPARATE from haiti.To set the record straight most haitians don't think DR belongs to Haiti. repeat this 20 times so it can sink in. No I have some pet peeves are u willing to answer?
Written by: Lautaro, 12 Feb 2008 11:58 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
That's too funny! Here here...
Written by: Lautaro, 12 Feb 2008 1:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
See, I told you so. ;-) LOL
Written by: arcatype 
, 12 Feb 2008 4:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Xenophobia racism the typical haitian excuse come up with something more original your petty excuses are extremely childish! The haitian always plays the victim protest within your own country that allows child slavery and people starving to death, people eating dirt for food. We dont need emigration in our country those days are over we have enough people for a country our size we dont need an extra million people that cant stop complaining and giving us a bad name! Haiti for haitians, Dominican Republic for dominicans. LEAVE US IN PEACE.
From: United States
Mr Lautaro you are a Haitian that my country Republica Dominicana... gave you a chance to survive something that in your native country you would n have a chance. You should have stayed .No Muerda la mano Que te dio Comida muerto de hambre.El Mocano not Haitian Friendly.
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Feb 2008 9:32 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Welcome to the forum, mr. carbelk99. For your information, I'm dominican (a capitaleño, in fact), but that fact doesn't stop me from being sympathetic with the plight of the oppressed groups of this country (women, inmigrants, the elderly, etc.), even more so when the injustices of the system forced some of my relatives and childhood friends to migrate to the US in search for means for sustaining their families, means that on our country are only available to the well connected or the ones with aristocratic last names. So please, if you have a grain of common sense, don't let yourself fall on the same trap that some people over here are in, bashing the weak neighbour while having families (or even themselves) on the same position in the US and Europe.
From: Haiti
Lautaro, this the one thing that I can't understand. Most of these individuals opposing haitians in the DR are living abroad and many got there either illegally or fake papers. No offense but how many average dominicans are getting visas to USA & Europe. They too have been oppressed by their government or are mostly peasants with almost no formal education out of dispair felt it was necessary for them to migrate to where they can get an opportunity. They have more in common with the poor haitians that migrate to the DR than anything else. In fact most of their relatives live in the same barrios poor haitians live in the DR. You would think that if they lookt in the mirror they would see the degrees of separation btw them and haitians in search of opportunities in the DR is not far apart. Lautaro, can you explain why ? You and a few others are the ones that I can take seriously here. Last night on the spanish channel (spain) there was a documentary of immigrants from america
From: Haiti
cont. in Africa. This young dominican girl and panamanian were telling their story of how hard it is for them but thankful because they are better off than their respective countries. The africans too were expressing their sentiments and ironically the bond the hispanics had with the africans was extraordinary. Due to hardship they've realized although from different continents are going to the same struggles. It is really sad to read some of the comments here and if I didn't know better would think all dominicans were ______(fill in the blank). Some of them here havent never enjoyed the finer things in the DR nor dine in the posh restaurants. Finally, struggling day in and day out they can go back in try to fit in but due to upbring and mental baggage still stand out like a soar thumb. You can take the campesino out of th campo(Nueva Yol) but civilising him is practically impossible. I feel sorry for them.
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Feb 2008 1:08 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Sadly, the explanation for that strange, if not downright contradictory, behavior escapes my reasoning, mr. Jabao. The only way that I could explain it would be to abscribe it to the high levels of functional illiteracy existing on the country, but even so I feel that I would be letting a lot of other variables outside the equation. How can these people claim to be following Christianity's teachings when they are capable of treating their fellow man so callously?
From: Haiti
Lautaro, I can't grasp this either. Although illiteracy and propaganda has played tremendously to such behavior, I can not understand that some dominicans in the USA are so hostile when they too are sitting in a hot seat. I would like to know what will these people do when(if) USA decides to deport all illegals. Or to the extreme those that are legal or americans by birth should pack up and go home. Stupidity is the most dangerous virus that has destroyed man kind and sadly will continue to. I pray that these dead people walking awaken out of their dark state of mind. There isn't a war between the two countries that share this beautiful island. I am optimistic and hope for better relationship btw the two nations.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
To help understand this phenomena, I think we can look to the oppressed-oppressor relationship. This is not by far the only reason, but it definately is a part... The oppressed, who often dare not admit they are oppressed, identify with their oppressors and to feel liberated oppressed others.
Paulo Freire's "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" is an excellent analysis of this phenomenin and tries to explain how to address it.
Written by: arcatype 
, 13 Feb 2008 9:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Jabao Haitiano So you think your such intellectual why is it that you dont answer my post, it seems that you and your crew of ignorants is trying to escape the true subject matter at hand it's easy to talk things that are not relevant to the question at hand again my words have been removed. The only persons that got to look at themselves in the mirror are haitians the poor victims of their own circumstances, dont try to blame others for your misfortunes blame your inept goverment and blame the choices that many of your own historical figures have brought upon your own country. My point of view is within the framework of basic economics and also respecting the soverignty of all nations, now i understand that when you are right people escape and runaway from the facts! and ignore the painful truth.
Written by: arcatype 
, 13 Feb 2008 9:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Using race and class is the basic scapegoat for those that fall within the margin of mediocrity now let me ask you Jabao Haitiano the elites? in your country are the mulattos and the majority of the people are black, now look at yourself in the mirror and explain to me if your country is not racist against its own. Now in the D.R. its a myth that blacks cant make it when many dominican blacks are successful in many fields just like their white counterparts. Its funny that people keep on mentioning the franjuls and the vicinis like if they are the only people in business in a country with 9 million people its ridiculous to think that those that make it in the news within a negative headline catch the attention and the hatred for many. The wealthy will always make the big bucks poverty will always exist unless the corporate and goverment structures change their way of operation, but uncontrolled population growth is also responsible for the increase in poverty.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
arcatype, good points. Good presentation w/o being offensive. well, to address your point, many people have analyzed how discrimination can exist even when some members of the oppressed groups are allowed to move forward. I would suggest that you re-read the article above to see how oppression can co-exist with seeming social mobility of oppressed.
actually, this article may not be ideal to show how oppression and "apparent social mobility" can coexists, but I suggest that you look around and ask yourself "who are the people that are shown in advertisement"; "what does it mean to have 'bad hair'"? And things along those lines.
If after analysing these issues, you still believe there is no rasim and discrimination in the DR, let me know and we can get together in Santo Domingo, and we can then have a face to face about this issue.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
The only way to deal with all this hatred and Haitian/Dominican bashing is for Haiti to have the assistance of another nation in repatrioting all Haitians in the D.R. back to Haiti and decrease the ties that Haiti has with D.R. If this happens it is very unlikely that people like "arcatype" will be posting his xenophobic views. There wont be no Haitians in D.R. no more so Dominicans will have to find other people to spew their racist, hurtful, and dangerous rants on.
Written by: arcatype 
, 14 Feb 2008 11:29 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Racism will always be present within any multi-racial country those within the dominant classes will be at the forefront of being the wealthy and powerful im not denying or hiding that truth. If you build something then that which you created is your idea keep that in mind, you cant demand something that someone else owns or you cant own the large house in the hill unless you paid for it. What im trying to say is that the wealthy class earned what they have it does not mean that they opress the poor necesarily, the problem with poverty it's more related to the economic structure that exist today in many countries of the world and it's connected to uncontrolled population growth. That's why migration of people without control creates an environment of more economic hardship for the citizens that rightfully need assistance and deserve a fair wage, the situation in D.R. is a serious problem that needs attention or the future will be very difficult for those in the majority the poor.
From: Haiti
Jemesouviens, that seems like the logical thing to do but the dominicans & haitian elites will never let this happen do to the cash flow between them. The dominicans that rant hatred towards haitians are victims and oppressed by their government. As Bladoria stated, the oppress needs to feel a sense of comfort and one way to realize a sense of worth oppress the less fortunate in this case the poor haitians that migrate legally. Ok, I tire of all this can someone write an article of dominicans in the DR not the immigrants abroad that have helped many haitians and the good relationship they have. I have seen with my own eyes dominicans & haitians getting along.
From: Haiti
Jemesouviens, that seems like the logical thing to do but the dominicans & haitian elites will never let this happen do to the cash flow between them. The dominicans that rant hatred towards haitians are victims and oppressed by their government. As Bladoria stated, the oppress needs to feel a sense of comfort and one way to realize a sense of worth oppress the less fortunate in this case the poor haitians that migrate legally. Ok, I tire of all this can someone write an article of dominicans in the DR not the immigrants abroad that have helped many haitians and the good relationship they have. I have seen with my own eyes dominicans & haitians getting along.
Written by: arcatype 
, 14 Feb 2008 12:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Comparing the elites in the Dominican Republic to the elites? in Haiti is comparing apple and oranges the Dominican economy is growing the haitian economy is stagnant and getting worse theirs an estimated 1 million or more illegal haitians in the D.R. it's not the other way around Haiti has a serious problem with it's environment, deforestation and lack of water and arable land Haiti cant feed itself. So you can continue thinking that theirs a conspiracy to create more poverty in the D.R. i dont believe that! convince someone else of such a silly idea. The political and social problems of Haiti are in part due to foreign intervention but most of the blame falls upon the incompetent haitian goverment.
Written by: arcatype 
, 14 Feb 2008 1:07 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The only defense for the so called "victims" of their own making is creating a fictitous connection with the elites the others are racism, xenophobia and other notions that have no credible points to the real problem at hand. Just remember that borders have a purpose and their not just there for geographical reference! mutual respect and cooperation is the answer not uncontrolled migration which creates the real social and economic problems that we see in the world today.
From: Haiti
If controlled migration is a problem then would you consider sending back illegal and legal dominicans even those born in the USA back to the DR. Even if many have EARNED a piece "crumb" of the american pie thru hard work and sacrifice of leaving loved ones behind and many times kids? If american society haven't given many dominicans a chance or an opportunity that DR hasn't given them were would many of you be? Indeed there are borders and most be respected. Will these haitians or haitian descendant go back to Haiti? Will dominicans born or raised in USA at a very young age go back to live and can deal with the bureacracy, or apagones?
Written by: arcatype 
, 14 Feb 2008 4:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
If a dominican is illegal in the U.S. yes he or she should be deported, theirs been many instances that many dominicans have been deported from the U.S. back to the D.R. not a problem the U.S. has a right to deport illegals. But again Jabao Haitiano you are not staying in the subject matter at hand your running away talking about the U.S. immigration problem. The Dominican Republic has a fundamental right to deport the scourge of illegal haitians. Yes Jabao Haitiano they are illegal no they are not legal, respect the laws of other nations and stop making excuses the haitian goverment is inept and operates as a phantom goverment. And how about haitians that illegaly flee to the U.S. should not the U.S. deport them too? or you feel that everyone should embrace you only because your so special!
From: Haiti
Arcatype, if you took time to read several of my post, I clrearly state that illegal migration from Haiti to the DR should be curtailed and if caught deported. Now the issue I have is how they deport illegal haitians and many times dark skin dominicans. DR has the sovereign right to deport anyone that is illegal although they appear to leave other groups alone. Please read my post and try to have an objective opinion rather than feeling I have to prove this haitian guy he is wrong. Again, your papers are correct and now looking at those without papers differently. I hope you don't have a close family member that is illegal which according to you should pack up and head back home. This is a delicate issue, I mention USA because of the similar predicament..matter of fact, go to Puerto Rico to see how domincians have flooded that country. I am trying to make you think and look in the mirror. Now one is saying illegals should stay and do whatever.
Written by: arcatype 
, 14 Feb 2008 6:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic
What other groups are you talking about theirs no other ethnic group that is flooding the gateway as haitians. So dont think that everything pertaining to the deportation of haitians has a racist connotation, how many people should the D.R. allow until its neighbor get it's act straight. Haiti needs to get its self together or the problems will never end, and emigration to its neighbor is not the answer the D.R. has it's own problems to solve which are many, compounding the problem is not the answer more discrimination will continue to occur but only as a natural conduit do to the fact that the country cant handle such large amounts of people have some consciousness and understand the big picture. And lastly i hope theirs positive change in your country for the sake of both nations.
Written by: antonioj, 15 Feb 2008 10:13 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Mr Arcatype I am Haitian. I have read your argument so far which I found some what reasonable, despite the fact I may not in total agreement with everything.
However, I would liked you to substantiate your argument what is consider an elite class, and why comparing elite from one side should be different. Your economic growth assertion to support your argument is flawed, ridiculous and it appear to be a veiled attempt to undermine anything Haitians
From my point of view a growing economy will create a bigger pool of middle class rather than a stagnant one, but the fundamental remain the same regardless.
Written by: , 15 Feb 2008 11:00 AM
From:
Economic growth is a NEEDED BUT NOT SUFFICIENT factor in building a middle class, reducing poverty and inequality. Actually, many times - like the present situation in the DR - one can see an economy growing while poverty and inequality deteriorate, and the mid-class is taxed back to poverty or done away by debilitating the economic base that gave rise to them.
Attacking poverty, explicitly, Making the building of a middle class an overt goal; MAINSTREMING these policy targets in every pol. movement is the ONLY way that growth will lead to a reduction in poverty and inequality, and increase the middle class. If we leave it to the Mkts to "magically" produce these resutls, we'll get what we've gotten thus far - Increased misery and growing inequality.
Moreover, we need the proper INSTITUTIONS to protect us from our "canibal" politicians and parties. w/o institutions "checking" and "guiding" politicians, we'll get what we've gotten-Increased misery and growing inequality.
Written by: antonioj, 17 Feb 2008 6:48 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Mr Greenwave, it's very easy to spread unsubstantiate fear to advance your own personal vendetta.
This is far fetch, DR have existed for over 300 years and will be there in future, the DR government should create a humane repatriation protocol ,and the amnesty for 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation born and raise, otherwise the task will be humongous, negative, and costly.
Alot of the Haitians illegal are there, because there are a need, you fail to understand the market economy of "laisser faire" in DR where money, profit rules, for that matter decisions may point toward a different direction than your extreme nationalistic sentiment.
Now, I understand you never met an Haitian in your life in DR, very interesting when you have pointed there are so many. Get to know one, they are not really what they are being portrayed.
Please, watch your choice of words(erradicate ), and Good luck
Written by: talia, 17 Mar 2008 1:16 PM
From: United States, NY
I understand the point made in the article and I can say this is not anything new. I've grown up knowing about this discrimination as young person I have seen it happen with other ethnicities.
The anti-haitianismo is a sad thing but it comes over from a European influence and belief. Peoopl all over the world have to stop looking at skin color as a signifier for value. They need to see potential and ability in every man. Help to mold and shape the very people they oppress. I will say that even if the DR were to try to and really help and cut the discrimination against the haitianos, the problem left would be to look at the internal structure of the Haitian poeple and itself
- you cannot help or bring up a people that do not believe they can change for the better themselves. I love the DR and when I went there last (jan 08') I saw some changes and haitians
being helped and even some even recognezed for their efforts and building a new life in the DR. I have hope.
From: United States
I understand the racial issues that grip the Dominican Republic and the tensions that exist between it and neighboring Haiti and that poverty and lack of opportunity in some areas creates or adds to an environment that is conducive to social ills.
I have been to the Dominican Republic twice in the last 6 months and the thing that struck me most about the place was the beauty of the people both inside and out, the beauty of the Island and the opportunity that exists to rise above the ills that currently plague the country.
I am African American and I actually felt more comfortable and at peace there then I have in a long time at home. Please don't misunderstand I am proud to be American, but I have never been to a place where I didn't fluently speak the language but at the same time felt at home, where so many people look like me. It reminded me of a time in the US where there was a strong bond among the african american community, poor but proud.
From: United States
(Continuing because of length)
I hope that both Haitians and Dominicans alike someday realise how lucky you truly are to have your own countries despite the problems. Together you would be a force to be reconed with!
From: United States
it is funny. post an educated article on the site, and uneducated dominicans hemorage. they pretend to understand , unfortunately ,they do not have a clue. greenwave and associates go bersek. there aren;t any books that i'.ve read on the dominican-haitian issue that do not ridicule the ideologues who concocted between the four walls of their imagination (not of their house) dominican history, not according to the facts. In Haitiano-Dominican counterculture, the author is right when he claims that short of offering real solutions to dominican's problems, the politicians offer them anti-haitianismo (or in extension racism, because, even in u.s.a. the practice is not abandoned) as the root cause of everything negative.
From: United States
Mr. Acosta, the D.R. is no exception to the rules of cultural domination nor race dominations/discriminations. The five faces of oppression are mainly permited by irresponsible governments, while at the same time they are face with little choices to do otherwise. Take constructions, as an example for cheap labors which is perfomed mainly by Haitians. Go to the " Free Zone ", factories that employed native dominicans of all colors, yet another cheap labor. In the past the D.R. was a two class sociaty, you were either rich or poor. Until around the middle 1970's, the D.R. headed towards a division of classes forming from lower to middle, upper-middle and rich to mega rich. This created in D.R. what is more of a class struggle in wich and of course the more educated will outfit the less educated, the same as in the U.S. The five faces of oppression will more likely be for this new phase in D.R.
From: United States
HECTOR has made a valid point that I have always been thinking about. It is like he read my mind thought for thoughts.
Written by: arcatype 
, 5 May 2008 4:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Written by: ny4life, 6 May 2008 2:13 AM
From: United States, New York, NY
Interesting Arcatype. I guess the article about kids being smuggled to Santiago could have some validity to it. For all the pride Haitians have, it's sad to see this going on in Haiti.
From: United States, Washington, D.C.
NY4Life, what do you say about Dominicans' pride then? don't you know that the DR is one of the major people smuggling countries? Moreover, the child sex industry in the DR is extremely high. In short, you can't link a "people's" pride to whether there are bad things happening in that country.
What you should do is try to work towards a solution - donate $$ to UNICEF, UNHCR, IRC, The Jesuits; or go to haiti yourself and work to improve the situation.
Cheers,
From: United States
It F4ck1ng kills me inside to see this. That is why I must do something. Kids should not be subject to this kind of mistreatments and disparity. What does that say about the future of Haiti of the future of any place in the world that abuse kids? It is not right, damn it!!!
Written by: arcatype 
, 6 May 2008 11:13 AM
From: Dominican Republic
ny4life I hope that your not blaming dominicans for the restaveks of Haiti, allegedly these children are being smuggled to what be slaves in D.R.? that's a big? many of those children are abandoned by their own parents and are left to fend for themselves begging on the street's of Santiago its really sad.
Written by: antonioj, 6 May 2008 6:26 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"
Written by: arcatype, 6 May 2008 11:13 AM
From: Dominican Republic
ny4life I hope that your not blaming dominicans for the restaveks of Haiti, allegedly these children are being smuggled to what be slaves in D.R.? that's a big? many of those children are abandoned by their own parents and are left to fend for themselves begging on the street's of Santiago its really sad.
"
I can not comment I do not have any ideas, I was in Haiti 32 years ago. Thank you, and your concern is welcome if you really mean it. However, if your comment is meant to be condescending and demeaning to Haitians, you have certainly reach a bottom low.
I noticed how harsh you have been to Mr hispanolayosoy. You can perhaps tone it down a little and still be able to deliver the same message. I am not taking sides, I have read alot of your comments by in large measure are reasonable.
Written by: Lautaro, 6 May 2008 11:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It only goes to show that overpopulation is really a problem to be adressed islandwide. A lot of people over here like to attack Cuba and its regime, but if there´s a thing that cubans understand perfectly (at least better than our own capitalist or semi-capitalist regimes) is that one of the best ways to fight poverty is drilling on the minds of the populace the need to organize themselves when planning to start a family, so as to not worsen their existing living conditions by bringing to the world children that they'd not be able to properly feed or nourish later on their lives. That's one of the reasons that explains why Cuba, with only 11,000,000 people has been more capable of maneuvering in the face of adverse economic conditions than us in Hispaniola, with over 20,000,000 (badly counted) people.
From: United States
Mr Lautaro, always a breath of enlightenment. i guess you will probably incur the wrath of the anti cuban lobby in this forum, but the truth is what sets you free! with nine million less mouths to feed than Hispaniola, which, incidentally is far smaller, and therefore offers less biosphere per person, they will be able to weather the storm far easier than we will.
And James, yes the Haitian discrimination helps justify our under appreciation of our African roots, but my point is even without the presence of a Haitians in the Dominican psche, the dominant group would still impose a manufactured identity that is intended NOT TO UNITE, but to identify who is "acceptable"; e.g. the exclusion of non-whites from some social settings/clubs.
I commend you for a well thought out article and I think the problem globally was/is due to colonialism how it effected our psyche. In the americas & ww there is a hierarchy where les blancs are at the top of the totem pole and it trickles down to les noirs which are at the bottom of the totem pole. Name one country in the americas where the white (or casi blanco) minority of that group doesn't control the wealth and considered at the top. In a society where phrases such as "trabajo como un negro para vivir como un blanco" is accepted as the norm. Or in south america where one hear phrases such as "no ser tan indígena" which in the DR would be considered a compliment. Even my beloved country has issues and discriminates towards the majority. I think the solution is to re-educate starting with the youth at an early age to appreciate all parts of socity indigenous,african & european without bias. the big issue 4 dominicans is if they identify with their african.
I concur that freedom of press "parler librement" have been in bondage by corporate business sectors to keep the blinds on the majority of the mass but it is up to each individual to uplift themselves & seek the truth. Besides, I think the religion sectors in both of our societies have more power than they should rather they should play a role in building the bridge between the have and have nots but reality is they are to high up to see what the everyday life is on the battle ground(los barrios) but always have an opinion on how things should be done. The worst thing is people listen rather than digest "la palabra" to see if it's justified. A wise man once told me "el pobre suplica y el rico insulta".
I share the same POV regarding the decrease of followers in the Catholic establishment and literally in all latin america besides Mejico. As the Mr. Gonzalez mentions when someone utters the word "discrimination" one quickly ponder on the domínico-haitiana relationship. There are factors regarding this subject that would still permeate in the domincan society without the discrimination against my compatriots. Each individual must be held accountable for his/her actions and struggle to overcome the constant pyschological damage thru centuries of oppression and humiliation. When our society becomes tolerate and depict the majority in a positve light on the tube and other medias maybe that negative seed of discrimination will disperse itself and one will judge base on character rather than the colour of thy skin. Poco a Poco Petit a Petit with mediums such as this one the light shall beam thru the darkness and awaken the dorment minds of our deadizens.
Thank you for remembering me..I am glad to read you again. Your story is nothing new and sadly this occurred because in the owners mind(brain washed) knew the hierarchy and did what to him is the just thing, serve blanco first and the rest comes after. Can't blame him though but the canucks that come from a so called unbias society should've corrected this as you mentioned but did not..That says alot.. I say if it wasn't for the laws in north america that punishes(lawsuit) individuals/institutions these sad phenomenons would happen in n. america.
But I blame you for not having those canadians pay for you stuff as well..jejej. How did you play it off.? Did u say anything? Nothing like humiliate someone that should know better. You should see the faces I get when I tell them i'm haitian. I my Gosh he speaks english like us..lol...and he is light skin..im almost white in the DR though.lol.. I have many stories that are similar..I will write one when i get a chance.
En Haiti es lo mismo entre los blancos. White is king brother! Not that it's right but that's the way the world is run. Sad but true. In Haiti es lo mismo. The fact that DR is more powerful than Haiti, the situation is blown out of proportion pero en Haiti es lo mismo.
I didn't say let's try to be like anybody but the truth is that the power in the world lies in the hands of those with lighter skin and you as a Haitian should know this since your country is mostly of black descendent. I'm not condoning this at all but it is the truth. It's sad and unfortunate that his the case but it's known way that the plight of Haiti has to do with the world not accepting the first totally Black liberated Republic. Blacks and Latino's especially in the U.S. fight for the same rights as the white elite. Latino is a race, it's a combination of many influences such as european, taino, and black. Some type of European influence is involved in order to be a Latino. You are right that 96% of Dominicans are not white, Dominicans are not white, they are breed of European, African, and Taino. That's why we are lighter skinned than Haitians. Dominicans have more European influence in our society which makes us Latino and that's the truth.
To ensure the reduction/rejection of the “less-valued” identity, a complex network of mechanisms are used to promote the “dominant” culture, to tarnish and vilify “the other.” This goes beyond race and xenophobia, this goes to a society based on oppression of those who do not or cannot, fit the ideal image – women, gays, poor, blacks, (black)migrants.
Think beyond the oppression of Haitian
I mispoke, latino is not a race but an ethnicity. Latino's tend to choose black or white as race depending on skin color and granted they have the right to do so. Latin is the root language of spanish, french, portugues, romanian, and others. So if you speak any of these and were born out side these countries and are descendents of these people than you are considered Latin-American.
We have different view on things and you just have respect it.
By know way I am bashing dominicans..Why is it when I Haitian speaks openly whether going against the grain of how dominican feel it is considered bashing. You just don't know the love I have for the DR and consider it my 2nd home. For your FYI, my wife is domincan and I improved her race(she is a light brown skin but middle class family and I am very light people think Im puerto rican) we met at PUCMM. Now imagine me a middle class haitian telling my family im getting engage to a dominican. First thing that came out of their lip was "Oh gosh he is marrying a cuero". I had to convince my family that she was NOT a typical domincan(haitian stereotype that all dominican women are hookers and the men theives). And she spoke proper spanish and also spoke french/english, family came from a good catholic background and father had his own business which is a good network for our family in the DR. I am here to dialogue in a respectful but honest fashion with being PC.
Petion Ville isn't what it used to be but still is Le p'tit Paris of Haiti....Kenscoff is still cool and haven't had to much changes..Caribetour goes straight to Petion Ville.
But honestly I think this world is already full of souls with **** on their heart and brain, so I just leave it to God to do a miracle.
Doris Pantaleón - 1/21/2008
Los partos a mujeres haitianas en la maternidad La Altagracia han aumentado considerablemente.
SANTO DOMINGO.- En los últimos dos años el número de nacimientos de hijos de madres haitianas en la maternidad Nuestra Señora de La Altagracia se ha incrementado considerablemente, al pasar de un nueve a un 22 por ciento con relación al número de partos que se atienden en el hospital, reveló ayer el director del centro.
El doctor Juan Cid Troncoso aseguró que el año pasado en la maternidad se registraron 21 mil nacimientos y de ellos el 22 por ciento era de madres haitianas.
Muchas de las embarazadas llegan al hospital al momento de parir, se cree que directamente desde Haití, por lo que no tienen expedientes médicos en el centro de salud.
Dijo que eso genera el inconveniente de que muchas llegan con anemias e infecciones, no hablan español, ni están
Most certainly DR should re-insert its authority and ignore pressure from proAfrican and prohaitian groups to transform DR into a satellite of Haiti. Given the history and all the imperialistic intentions of Haiti to annex DR, we should never entertain the idea of accepting culture relate to Haiti!
Does that address your concerns? Let me know if it doesn't and I'll try to explain a bit better. Sometimes I get too into the theory and forget the practical...
I urge you that next time you want to place historical facts, it would be nice and more acceptable that you put the Historical facts that are correct. You clearly forgot to mention several events in your previous post....Like how in 1795, France and Spain signed the "Treaty of Basel", which was the treaty that caused Spain to cede to whole island of Hispaniola to France, and have all of its citizens(Spaniards) leave within a year(Clearly this part never happend). Secondly, you mentioned the Haitian invasion of 1801...This was when Toussaint L'ouverture paraded into Santo Domingo and freed all slaves over there. Then you mention the invasion of 1805...Well a year before "Haiti", which became independent, tried to control the territory that they won only to be ousted by Spanish colonist and the French. Now for 1822-1844, Haiti finally was able to control its territory but only for 22 years....Continued
You do have some good points but I want to emphasize to you that the slave army which switch sides to help to French defeat Spanish attemps to regain the western side in 1793-95, caused the Spaniard to relinqusih any claim to the whole island....Thus giving it to French control. Several years later the "Indegenous Army" led by Petion, Dessaline, defeated the French Army. Im sure you heard the saying "to the victor goes the spoils". Now I clearly understand that the Spanish/Dominican colonist had been on the island way longer than the French and had a justifiable claim. I just want you to see it from my perspective, even though we disagree....But Latauro please dont think that I view D.R. in this modern era as a Break-away territory of Haiti. Clearly, Dominican Republic is for Dominicans, and Haiti is for Haitians.
As Im reading your response I began to scratch my head and wonder if you got a degree in Haitian history. Your comments cant be anymore correct. It is obviously clear that Toussiant L'ouverture was the smartest and most progressive Haitian in the country's history. I believe that if he was not betrayed by his fellow countrymen, the Haiti you see in the media today would be very different. However, dispite the situation Haiti is in now(albiet, things are getting better), I still feel that the 13 years of war, death,and in-fighting was worth it. I say this because quite frankly, I rather have nothing but the underwear that I am wearing now and live in object poverty, than be someone's slave. Im curious to know if you will go see the "Toussaint L'Ouverture Movie" that is directed by Danny Glover, which comes out in theaters in December of this year.
To fast forward to present day events. Aristide made the same mistakes as his predecessors meaning he was demanding reparations from France which was his death sentence. The so called friends of Haiti sent him on a one way ticket to central africa using the DR as a base to escort him out. I am know way an Aristide supporter but his intentions were good up to the point he wanted to go head on with super powers. As history has played out Haiti has been punished for daring to stick her head out of the hole. Ask yourself this question? What happen to the reparation campaign? It vanished into thin air and haiti's economic situation is worse due to inflation to the infinite degree. Our national products can't compete with imported goods and the common haitian suffer or go across the border looking for a better life. BTW, the dominican poultry industry is hurting with the band. Another proof that DR and Haiti need better trade agreements and improve relations.
Soichiro Honda, founder, Honda motor company
But the author metioned the picture of light skin people in billboards, magazines, and some TV shows. That is the author is confusing what the capitalists and commerce people do to make a buck! The images shown in different media is driven by the capitalists and not necessarily the government or the society. The capitalists do what sells and they are selling an image that the consumers want! It does not mean that the consumers are racist nor they are racially discriminating. SEPARATE CAPITALISM FROM THE REAL IMAGE WHERE BLACK/MULATTO ARE HOLDING POWERFUL GOVERNMENTAL AND PRIVATE SECTOR JOBS! AND THAT IS THE PLAIN TRUTH! DR IS DIVERSIFIED
The spanish did not introduced slavery into DR between 1860 and 1865! Stop lying!
1817 Spain signs a treaty with England agreeing to end the Spanish slave trade north of the equator immediately, and south of the equator in 1820.
I would differ to say that the advertisement are being pushed deliberately, but not necessarily reflective of the population over-all
There is no doubt such attitude was fostered over time and now in 2008 there is a pressing need for real reform to start, any responsible goverment should respond to such chalenge
1. Revising DR & Haitian history
2.TV ad
3. Mandate change
4.Educate
DR have to prosper want it or not some people may be longing for the old days, but it was the past surely, there was error committed I am sure we all know by now. The author keep emphazing race black and mulatto... calling the current president a mulatto is a long shot...I think light skin black or mix is more appropriate
EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY IS ONLY MANDATED FOR PRIMARY SCHOOL. OTHER SCHOOLING CAN NOT BE MANDATED (SECONDARY AND UNIVERSITY) UNLESS A DICTATORSHIP OR SOCIALISM IS IMPOSED. WHEN POOR PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOCIETY HAS THE DUTY TO MAKE AN ENGINEER OR SCIENTISTS OR LAWYER OUT THE CHILDREN. THAT IS A CHOICE TO BE MADE BY THE CHILDREN AND THEIR PARENTS. THE GOVERNMENT OFFERS MILITARY OPPORTUNITIES FOR THOSE NOT CHOOSING ACADEMICS. SOME POOR PEOPLE DROP ACADEMICS ALTOGETHER AND PURSUIT TO PLAY BASEBALL AS WAY TO MOVE UP FINANCIALLY (OTHERS MIGRATE WHILE OTHER RESORTS TO DRUGS/VIOLENCE/ROBBERY)
JOBS OPPORTUNITIES DEPENDS ON EDUCATION/EXPERIENCE. JOBS OFFERS DEPEND ON ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. DR DOES NOT HAVE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH (JOBS AVAILABLE) TO OFFER JOBS TO THE THOUSANDS OF GRADUATES GENERATED EVERY YEAR! EVEN THE SUPEPOWER, THE U. S. HAS UNEMPLOYMENT, POVERTY, HOMELESS, AND NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. SOME DON'T IMPOSE YOUR UTOPIA ON DR!
You want may want to re-read my previous post above.
The Haitian communities are well aware of your distorted believes, and the wrong fact of Haitian and DR history that you seem to be carrying around on many forum such as topix under Haiti (forum) ect… You have chosen to describe Haitians the most heinous way as possible to top it all with the most foul and grotesque language, fortunately you will not be able to that in that forum.
Now, Mr GREENWAVE I invite you to bring up your lies and your cohorted fact in that forum if so believe they are real, Sir you can do that now simply cut and paste less the heinous languages of course.
Mr. Jabao, I’m well aware of the stereotypes that Haitians have for Dominicans(and vice versa); I just don’t think this is a place for it to be expressed,(as was a lot of what said)in any form, this was supposed to be an intelligent discourse and look to what it has been reduced to.
Let me apologize for the language and the tone which typical of Mr Greenwave who claim to be from the Dominican Republic.
I quote
"
FROM 1860 TO 1865, SPAIN DID NOT INTRODUCED SLAVERY IN RD! THAT IS THE TRUTH!
1817 Spain signs a treaty with England agreeing to end the Spanish slave trade north of the equator immediately, and south of the equator in 1820.
1801 Racial make up of STO DGO:
16,000 slaves
85,000 free mulato
65,000 Spanish decendents
Tousshit (Loverture) invaded to free 16,000 and to enslave 85,000 and to expell or kill 65,000! What a freaking trade is that! No one called him, asked for him, told him to invade!
Haitian invasions of STO DGO/HAITI ESPANOL/RD
1801, 1805, 1822, 1845, 1849, and 1855!
" I unquote
BTW - anyone up for a "salon" in Sto Dgo this week or next? if you are, send me an email - baldoria23@gmail.com and we can meet up. Let me know which day is good for you.
The Dominican identity, regardless of what anyone says, is not natural. Culture is ever evolving, and the introduction of new people just adds to our culture, it doesn't take away. People who argue that it does, are trying to use FEAR to hide indiscrepancies- corruption, drugs, inequality, environmental degradation... So please don't be a foot-soldier for hatred, be one for human rights.
You will noticed a lot of hates ,and emphasize on race, I have corned him several times in the topix site forum under (Haiti) with his assertion of half true, and lies. He has now decided for good to leave history alone which I think is commendable.
I noticed is back to his old game in the Dominican today forum, there are some very distinguish (estimado)author like : Lautaro, Je me souviens, FrankTheTank, JabaoHaitian to name a few that are very knowledgeable on the subject matter, and can shed some lights for the benefits of this forum and the readers
I don't need a lawyer wantabe like Antonio! This tactic of attacking, minimizing, demonizing, and treating the messenger like child DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MESSAGE AND ISSUE!
Use your heads! Don't mask one problem with another! The invasion of Haitians represent a threat to the identity of DR! IF you have allegiance to Haiti, then move to Haiti but don't impose your Haitianization to DR! GO HOME!
1-127 Haitians are born in DR every month
2->17,000 Haitians attend dominican universities
3-1.1 millions illegal haitians reside in DR: They use resources and create garbage
4-Most Haitian minors (those that don't beg) attend Dominican primary schools for free
5-The Dominican VP announced that the Haitians (in agriculture/tourism/construction) qualify for SFS.
6- Nearly 2,000 haitians cross into DR illegaly per week (violating 285)
7-Remember 1801, 1805, 1822, 1845, 1849, and 1855!
Excuse me and you want us to be tolerant and blind to this unwelcomed, unplanned, and untiming invasion? Suck my pipe!
Attack the message if you want to be listen to! Your message on the Haitianization of DR as you mentioned about the Haitian TV channel broadcasting in Dominican airwaves, the imposition of Creole language on Dominican armed forces, church, and others, etc. are examples that the DR customs and languages are being eroded!
I am not a messiah but your worst enemy!
Countries we export to: US (72.6 %), Taiwan, South Korea, Haiti and Belgium (in that order)
Countries we import from: US (46.9 %), Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, etc.
Tourism (Nearly $2 billions)
Remittances (Nearly $2.8 billions)
Only Dajabon, Elias Pina and Independence will suffer from a Haitian embargo! STOP THE LIES!
to US, Holland, South Korea, Haiti, etc.
OUR BIGGEST COMMERCIAL PARTNERS ARE THE U.S., SOUTH KOREA, TAIWAN
BELGIUM,HAITI,
The truth
below:
“
In such a case, according to Homero Figueroa of Diario Libre, then Haiti would be the nation's second largest trading partner. The latest report issued by the Center for Exports and Investment (CEI-DR) shows that Dominican exports have passed the US$1.5 billion mark for the first time, a significant improvement over 2006.”
From a DR site
http://www.dr1.com/trade/articles/262/1/Haiti...
Greenwave said:
IT WILL CREATE A PARASITIC RELATION BETWEEN A PEOPLE PRODUCING TRIBE LIKE HAITI (8.4 MILLIONS IN HAITI AND 3.8 MILLION HAITIANS IN THEIR DIASPORA)AND ANOTHER POOR COUNTRY LIKE THE DR. COMMERCE WILL ENCOURAGE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION OF HAITIANS TOWARDS DR CREATING DISPLACEMENT (EMPLOYMENT AND HABITATION), PUBLIC WELFARE (HOSPITAL, HEALTH CARE, HOUSING, AND CAFETERIA PROGRAMS), ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION (TREE FELLING, GARBAGE GENERATION BY THE HAITIANS, ETC.).
The truth below:
This is Greenwave personal racist, ignorant view and commentary and does not reflect any economic reality Trade is good for the all island it create wealth and good relation.
I must point out that Mister Greenwave is in no way qualify or an expert in economical matter and from my humble opinion did not pass even high school economic
Excerpt steven M.Suranovic
“
The higher price received for each country's comparative advantage good would lead each country to specialize in that good. To accomplish this, labor would have to move from the comparative disadvantaged industry into the comparative advantage industry. This means that one industry goes out of business in each country. However, because the model assumes full employment and costless mobility of labor, all of these workers are immediately gainfully employed in the other industry.(
“
From the site of international trade theory and policy
http://internationalecon.com/Trade/Tch40/T40-...
Greenwave said:
COMMERCE BETWEEN HAITI AND DR WILL MEAN THE DESTRUCTION OF DR! WE WERE DOING FINE WITHOUT HAITI BEFORE 1980! AFTER 1980 THE HAITIAN POPULATION IN DR GREW FROM 200,000 TO 2 MILLIONS (TODAY'S ESTIMATE 1.1 MILLION ILLEGALS + 0.9 MILLION WITH FALSE CEDULA AND/OR BIRTH CERTIFICATES).
The truth below:
The truth is, Haitians have been coming and living in DR way before DR was known as DR the figure 200,000 in 1980 that the author Greenwave is quoting is fictive as himself.
Excerpt by Michael Deibert
This release came after September 2005, when a legal team that included Sonia Pierre, successfully argued before the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that the Dominican Republic was in violation of Articles 3, 5, 19, 20 and 24 of the American Convention on Human Right Pact of San Jose, Costa Rica in denying citizenship to two young girls, Dilcia Yean and Violeta Bosico, born in the Dominican Republic. That decision also reinforced the fact that, in its
What has been the broader response of the Fernández government to these incidents ? A call to the rule of law ? An appeal to Dominicans to make their vibrant, culturally rich, economically viable nation a place where those of whatever descent and whatever skin color can live together ? Unfortunately, no.
Link
The Struggle for Haiti (Seven Stories Press). His blog can be read at www.michaeldeibert.blogspot.com .
Since the 1950s, a series of bilateral agreements has regulated legal Haitian immigration. In the late 1970s and the early 1980s, the government contracted for 10,000 to 20,000 temporary Haitian workers annually for the sugarcane harvest. Observers believed that an equal number of Haitians entered illegally. The 1960 census enumerated slightly under 30,000 Haitians. By 1980 estimates suggested the total number of Haitians residing permanently or semipermanently was on the order of 200,000, of whom 70,000 were workers.
http://www.cedopex.gov.do/estadisticas/reportes/pais.asp
Exportaciones por País de Destino
Título del Reporte : Exportaciones por País de Destino
Resultados para : Nacionales
Fecha Inicio : 2007/1/1
Fecha Final : 2007/12/29
Cod. Pais Pais de Destino Kilogramos Valor FOB US$
Total General = 3,477,707,198.87 $2,218,729,975.87
249 ESTADOS UNIDOS 471,231,436.90 596,922,248.75
919 HOLANDA 35,412,055.65 354,979,806.27
215 CHINA, REPUBLICA POPULAR 33,030,175.43 163,580,120.12
341 HAITI 344,914,423.44 154,609,707.33
190 COREA DEL SUR 11,558,292.00 135,163,035.36
611 PUERTO RICO 281,762,142.47 111,571,702.74
87 BELGICA 72,950,865.81 111,460,243.57
245 ESPANA 31,931,015.32 82,744,158.74
399 JAPON 6,837,781.20 72,129,769.97
628 REINO UNIDO 164,816,230.76 62,333,179.02
218 CHINA-TAIWAN (FORMOSA) 149,143,017.93 37,912,684.61
What happens to salaries when you inundate a labor market with cheap labor, it goes down. Similarly the quality of that work goes down! Most Haitians work for $1 dollar a day. Dominicans demand at least $6 dollars a day. Who do you think employers will hire? Especially in construction, agriculture, and tourism where margins are so narrow (due to competition) that one way to to optimize profits is lowering cost (LABOR COST). That is what the Haitians are doing, they show up and take whatever the empoyer offers! And what happens, those jobs are not longer available to the native population because they can not support themselves and even less their families.
There are not enough jobs for dominicans to work in two jobs to get enough salaries. This displacement of Dominicans by the Haitians (Haiti overpopulation is killing the whole island: women give birth to 4 to 6 children) is extremely dangerous to the survival of DR. That is the w
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Griot is "chicharron or massa", bannan is "platano frito". I enjoy reading your posting Mr Lautaro keep them coming.
This will fall under finger food on the go or "comida para picar in Haiti"
I am sure by now everyone have notice the posting of Mr Greenwave, fortunately does not represent the opinion of the majority of the Dominicans. He's an extreme case that should be left alone.
Lack of education affect quality. In DR, several construction had collapsed due to improper reinforcement with steel bar! Also the wrong type of sand (aggregate) were used with cement to connect blocks that have lead to the easy felling of walls! Recently, we heard of horses (handled by Haitians) defecating over fruits and roots to be sold in markets. We also learned that your compadres leave their human waste in the construction area they work in.
One lesson we learned when comparing the same product made by Chinese and Americans the quality is starkingly different. Not only the fabrication but also the choice of materials used. From that experience, we learned that if you don't educate and/or pay workers competitively, both routine, low moral, and even sabotage will plague your industry! Automation was then used by some (like Japan) to counter the amount of defects (imprecision and inaccuracy) associated with human mistakes and escalating cost of salaries and
People, we are called to a higher purpose. Supporting the continued oppression of some of our vulnerable people simple supports and recreated the oppressive systems that maintains many of us in a prostrated situation. Its either Justice for all, or justice for none. Can't you see? Today we are calling for the exclusion of haitians, tomorrow of non-whites, tall people, non-christians, fat people... People remember Nazi- Germany. First it was the Jews, then the Pols, then the Chech, and eventually it was YOU. By safeguarding the rights of our most vulnerable we're fighting for our own Rights. But actually, I fight for the realization of the rights of our most vulnerable people, b/c it's right! It's the type of society I want to fight for.
I propose that the haitian situation is extremely similar to the DOminicans risiding abroad. So arcatype, , ask why dominicans have to go abroad, take on different citizenships, and maybe you'll understand the situation the Haitians are in.
http://www.eumed.net/cursecon/economistas/Cipolla.htm
Enjoy, :-)
Paulo Freire's "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" is an excellent analysis of this phenomenin and tries to explain how to address it.
actually, this article may not be ideal to show how oppression and "apparent social mobility" can coexists, but I suggest that you look around and ask yourself "who are the people that are shown in advertisement"; "what does it mean to have 'bad hair'"? And things along those lines.
If after analysing these issues, you still believe there is no rasim and discrimination in the DR, let me know and we can get together in Santo Domingo, and we can then have a face to face about this issue.
However, I would liked you to substantiate your argument what is consider an elite class, and why comparing elite from one side should be different. Your economic growth assertion to support your argument is flawed, ridiculous and it appear to be a veiled attempt to undermine anything Haitians
From my point of view a growing economy will create a bigger pool of middle class rather than a stagnant one, but the fundamental remain the same regardless.
Attacking poverty, explicitly, Making the building of a middle class an overt goal; MAINSTREMING these policy targets in every pol. movement is the ONLY way that growth will lead to a reduction in poverty and inequality, and increase the middle class. If we leave it to the Mkts to "magically" produce these resutls, we'll get what we've gotten thus far - Increased misery and growing inequality.
Moreover, we need the proper INSTITUTIONS to protect us from our "canibal" politicians and parties. w/o institutions "checking" and "guiding" politicians, we'll get what we've gotten-Increased misery and growing inequality.
This is far fetch, DR have existed for over 300 years and will be there in future, the DR government should create a humane repatriation protocol ,and the amnesty for 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation born and raise, otherwise the task will be humongous, negative, and costly.
Alot of the Haitians illegal are there, because there are a need, you fail to understand the market economy of "laisser faire" in DR where money, profit rules, for that matter decisions may point toward a different direction than your extreme nationalistic sentiment.
Now, I understand you never met an Haitian in your life in DR, very interesting when you have pointed there are so many. Get to know one, they are not really what they are being portrayed.
Please, watch your choice of words(erradicate ), and Good luck
The anti-haitianismo is a sad thing but it comes over from a European influence and belief. Peoopl all over the world have to stop looking at skin color as a signifier for value. They need to see potential and ability in every man. Help to mold and shape the very people they oppress. I will say that even if the DR were to try to and really help and cut the discrimination against the haitianos, the problem left would be to look at the internal structure of the Haitian poeple and itself
- you cannot help or bring up a people that do not believe they can change for the better themselves. I love the DR and when I went there last (jan 08') I saw some changes and haitians
being helped and even some even recognezed for their efforts and building a new life in the DR. I have hope.
I have been to the Dominican Republic twice in the last 6 months and the thing that struck me most about the place was the beauty of the people both inside and out, the beauty of the Island and the opportunity that exists to rise above the ills that currently plague the country.
I am African American and I actually felt more comfortable and at peace there then I have in a long time at home. Please don't misunderstand I am proud to be American, but I have never been to a place where I didn't fluently speak the language but at the same time felt at home, where so many people look like me. It reminded me of a time in the US where there was a strong bond among the african american community, poor but proud.
I hope that both Haitians and Dominicans alike someday realise how lucky you truly are to have your own countries despite the problems. Together you would be a force to be reconed with!
HECTOR has made a valid point that I have always been thinking about. It is like he read my mind thought for thoughts.
What you should do is try to work towards a solution - donate $$ to UNICEF, UNHCR, IRC, The Jesuits; or go to haiti yourself and work to improve the situation.
Cheers,
It F4ck1ng kills me inside to see this. That is why I must do something. Kids should not be subject to this kind of mistreatments and disparity. What does that say about the future of Haiti of the future of any place in the world that abuse kids? It is not right, damn it!!!
Written by: arcatype, 6 May 2008 11:13 AM
From: Dominican Republic
ny4life I hope that your not blaming dominicans for the restaveks of Haiti, allegedly these children are being smuggled to what be slaves in D.R.? that's a big? many of those children are abandoned by their own parents and are left to fend for themselves begging on the street's of Santiago its really sad.
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I can not comment I do not have any ideas, I was in Haiti 32 years ago. Thank you, and your concern is welcome if you really mean it. However, if your comment is meant to be condescending and demeaning to Haitians, you have certainly reach a bottom low.
I noticed how harsh you have been to Mr hispanolayosoy. You can perhaps tone it down a little and still be able to deliver the same message. I am not taking sides, I have read alot of your comments by in large measure are reasonable.