Josean appeared in full drag for the first time since Halloween playing Lady of Spain on his concertina accompanied by dagtan and his magic flute

Right wingers are always obsessed with issues of sexual identity and rectal orifices. Everyone please watch please watch the HBO documentary, OUTRAGE, so you can see how hypocritical Banistan and his right wing colleagues are!

Note:

The infrastructure reminds its residents of the 16th century everyday as well!

your identity is ambiguous at best {not that there is anything wrong with that} cross dressing was practiced with shame in the past ....thank God you can come out of that closet wearing whatever you like josie ......times have changed

I once asked josie I said " Josean have you ever seen anything more beautiful than 36 red roses on top of a grand piano " and he answered very glibly " Yes tulips on an organ ".....what a wit that josean

Very representative Dominican demographics.

I guess the event must be culturally important; we must believe in fairy tales!

Why in heck would the slaves want anything to do with the master, or emulate him.

Why wouldn't they instead emulate the indigenous civilization and dress as Taino Indians? I would rather see someone dress as Enriquillo, Caonabo or Anacaona, but that's just me....maybe I am a far throwback to another time-maybe a better and justifiably proud time.

Ateo,

We could sit here and brag all the way across the North Atlantic to Europe about our heritage, and neither one of us would win.

Look, in DR, we were considered foreigners and still are. Grandparents were French diplomats-Paris, not Haiti! Great grandfather was an important officer in Napoleon's army. I can trace my European ancestry 400 years. My father and I were born in DR; he is entitled to both citizenships. Myself, I am second generation Dominican. However, with an all foreign name, I was always considered extranjero. I go by my Dominican nationality but, sadly, and especially of lately, I can't always be proud of it.

Anyway, from a historical perspective, I don't feel like Dominicans should honor or have any special allegiance to Spain or anything Spanish. They abused and raped our indigenous ancestors, plundered our riches and obliterated us. In my book, that is nothing to be thankful for. I hope you see my point, unless you are Spaniard!

Gabachos never got along with the Ibericos .

Gloma ,what I don't understand in this day and age people not respecting the wishes of others to feel proud of whatever they want to feel proud about ,I can consider it very silly for someone who is admittedly mostly of frog (gabacho) extraction to feel such a connection with dead natives who's blood you don't share but if you want to put a feather in your hair you have the right to do so just don't attack others who feel proud of THEIR culture. Besides after what your people (French) did in Haiti I wouldn't even mention it to loudly...

As far as being foreigners perhaps to some we are but in that case the whole island is full of foreigners because Africans and Europeans are equally foreign to this island and if we were to deport everyone home perhaps only a handful of hicks from el Cibao would qualify.

The cocolos are from the US VI, the people from Samana are from the US

Haiti as a neighbor.

The Japanese in Constanza ,the "Chinos de Bonao" ,the Jews of Sosua,The "Turks" (Arabs) all over the country but the common point in all of us is that we have one base culture and language SPANISH ,not Bantu,not Patois and the only major influence in our Dominican language is from the natives of La Española .

So if someone whose family came from France,or the Congo or Puerto Prince (I repeat myself) acts like they belong here I tell them that I am equally if not more entitled to this land because this land was conquered by Spain and La República Dominicana is a Spanish creation and the only thing the trumps the Spanish right is a Taíno but definitely I am not any less Dominican than someone who did not emigrate here but just ended here by chance.

I know it is harder to see this when we are all writing in English but our native culture and language is from the Iberian Peninsula and it is our tie to the rest of IBEROAMERICA and our difference with Haiti. We only owe France giving u

Ateo,

That makes two of us.

I could see a Spanish Heritage Club honoring Spain and being grateful for everything Spanish, and I would have no PERSONAL issues with that.

From a historical perspective, however, DR honoring or emulating Spain is like a rape victim publicly expressing thanks to the perpetrator for being gentle during the sexual attack.

BTW, my other set of grandparents were from Spain as well.

Pepe,

When it comes to colonialism and colonial crimes, I do believe the Spaniards rule supreme. I feel at ease with this statement and entitled, because half my ancestry is also Spanish-directly from Seville!

Ateo,

Couldn't we do that with manikins in a museum instead? That way, there wouldn't necessarily be any undertones.

Anyway, I'll be less critical and more rational on issue, from a cultural perspective maybe this is not that great a transgression and things are just as you purport them to be.

I'll just drop the whole thing, being that I see my previous commentary has not been well-received, and has been grayed out. Being that voting is done by contributors, this must mean they don't necessarily agree with my views. I'll respect that, and move on. By heritage, I am in the unique position to criticize French, Spanish and Dominicans without bias, and I rather like that. While some might object to it, they can't really put me down for it, because my heritage entitles me to state my opinions of those cultures, without the the fear of exile or other repercussions.

Glomar, I do not think that you will be able to convince many Dominicans about your point. The reason for this is that we as a people are still trying to find ourselves and due to the fact that anything african or native is considered lesser than European, they by default the country leans that way. The thing that many people in DR and here (pepe32, ateo) and others do not know is that our culture nor our so called connection to the so called motherland is not even a consideration in Spain. We at times behave like an orphan child that is constantly following a mother that does not recognizes us and leaves us behind at every turn of the way.

i could not agree more with you Glomar, since i can trace my ancestry back to Cuba, my great grand parents came from Cuba in the early 17th century to export tobacco. I am second generation Dominican that consider himself a mixed person, with native, african and european blood. I believe that we by nature feel closer to the native and, cont

african blood, since they never caused the harm that the european side did. it is natural to feel some sort of resentment towards the Spaniars since they never did anything for the people of Quisqueya if it was not to their advantage.

Dr. Clark says it beautifully and I hope that we as a people can one day do this: he says, history is a clock that people use to tell their political and cultured time of day. It is also a compass that people use to find themselves on the map of human geography. History tells the people where they have been and what they are and they are not. Most importantly history tells a people where they still must go and what they still must be, the relationship of history to the people is the same as the relationship of a mother to her child.

This is very powerful and that photo above simply misses the mark and it is not guided by the compass of history, because if so, it would have presented our natives and african roots alone with the Spanish's occupat

What I cannot fathom is how some people in their delusion believe in Black pride ,Native pride but cannot accept others having pride in their origins ,by this same measure any Dominican of Haitian descent should feel ashamed and should not be allowed to celebrate their background but somehow I don't see Dagtan being bothered by Afrocentrism yet anything that is even slightly scented as European and the good race card from the Afrocentric studies comes out .Gloma ,I do not agree with some of the things you wrote but I understand were you are coming from but we have no "indians " so it's just a bunch of white guys and black guys and a lot in between so if the black guys can celebrate their "culture" nobody can tell me not to celebrate mine and to consider a black Haitian or Dominican black more native Dominican than someone who is white is simply ludicrous because only the Tainos had that right.

BTW I don't think that many slaves or natives would have been invited guests at the alcázar just as no Taínos or Spaniards would have been present in voodoo rituals of the slaves to say so would be pure revisionism .

Besides in any celebration of "african pride" are they required to show Taínos and Spaniards ??

of course not and they would not be to happy to include it .
Let each be proud of their own and accept the multicultural reality of our nation but to to malign Spanish culture with a broad brush is exactly what hypocrites complain about when it has to do with others that have done terrible things to DR (Haitians) ,yet in that case they reply that we should not dwell in the past ,yet with the source of our main culture and for many of us our bloodline.

I never undestand why when people talk about rape,murdering and the killing of a culture SPAIN is the first that come to people mind,,, i do undestand that the spaniard sterminated the taino in the carribean, but most of the native in the terra firma (mainland) mexico, central america, south america did survive, now, i like to hear some in here and make the same argument in north america, where they basically exterminate with capital E,,,

http://puttingzone.com/indians.html

If any body that can find a reservation on the east coast that is not a casino gambling location get a cookie. if history serve me right after the spaniard exterminated the Taino, Spain pass law to protect native( it not alway work or were follow, but it was there) and most native were assimilate and mix into our culture calle Latino( Hispanic, Black and native american)
YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT THE ANGLOS

Pepe32, once again you are misreading my posts. I clearly stated that such ceremonies should show and present our other sides, which are native and african. I have always been bothered by our one dimensional approach to our history and ancestral make u

Today we are 84% mixed or black and 16% white in the DR. Out of that 84% about 11% are black and the rest is of mixed ancestry. I happen to follow the established geneology by our scientific community that there is three main ancestral traits: those of Anglo Ancestry (white), those of African Ancestry (Black) and finally Asian Ancestry (Yellow). In between there is a whole rainbow or color and shades.

So when you have 84% of oyur population is that is clearly not Anglo, then why do we put such emphasive on that particular ancestry and not the others? You pepe32, this is where I have an issue, not with euro centrict, or afrocentrict or nativism, I simply feel that we in the DR do not celebrate our native and african roots.

Telemeco you have stated something that has existed for centuries the propaganda of the English aka Britain against the cruel Spaniard the evil Spaniard the untrustworthy Spaniard ....this was a plank of British and British Commonwealth History and the education system ......It has even poisoned the well in Latin America

La leyenda negra...

Dagtan there are celebrations of the other cultures of the country and nobody cares ,why is it when those of us who are proud of our Spanish heritage celebrate we are forced to celebrate other cultures?

Go to the Saint Patrick's day parade and request that the include some Asian event or some Italian event....

Interesting I see you use the one drop rule "Today we are 84% mixed or black" ,how Jim Crow of you.

You also operate under the clearly Afrocentric concept that anything that is not white is Non-white when that is just a black racist social construct because we can say that most of the world is non-black. The little race war scenario of black american Nazis does not work with most of the world because outside the US these idiotic concepts do not fly.

BTW we are not Anglo (obviously your US based analogies )we are Hispano or Iberico .

"native african roots." African are not NATIVES to this nation only the Taínos can stake that claim.

As far as celebrating your African roots you can do that whenever you like ,but you do not have a right to impose on others what you want .I am one of that small minority that was almost annihilated by the Haitian ethnic cleansing but we survived as an ethnicity and as a culture and we beat the Haitians back multiple times only to let some delusional afronazis tell us we cannot celebrate our culture or how we should celebrate it .

pepe32, I think that you are still missing the point as always. I have not dismissed the Spanish heritage that we have , nor do I consider our African roots as native, maybe you missed the edit on the lat post, since your reading is one dimensional and only looking for certain things without reading for comprehension. I consider myself mixed and no I am not a one dropper, for if I was, then everyone on the mother will be African, since our human geneology tree takes there time after time.

It is clear that your knowledge is limited when it comes to human geneology and the origins of our specie. Pepe32, those nuts that use the one drop system are as crazy as you are when trying to defend one or the other.

I for one believe that even though our Taino did not survived the syttematice liquidation by the hands of the Spaniards, we must celebrate them front and center, since they take us back to our land and environment. We must also bring front and center our Africanism, that,

simply dominates a large part of our everyday living and behaviors. There is no doubt that are connection to Spain through language is the most visible and touchable, but not the most natural and integral to our make up.

I am always impressed with PuertoRicans and even though their connection to Spain is far stronger than ours and their ancestry far clearly connected via genetics and culture to Spain than us, they still place most value on their Taino roots. They really look at themselves as a Taino people that gives them a special connection to their environment and their people before Spain. You also, look at Cuba and them also being far more connected to Spain in terms of genetics and ancestry than us. They are also very impresive in how they protect their native and African roots to the point that anyone will actually think that they are an african nation.

pepe32, please drop Haiti, since we not talking about haiti. Can we talk about us for once, you always forget us.

Comrade Dag neither Puerto Rico or Cuba were invaded by Haiti this is a most important distinction and having lived there PR that is they also cherish there Spanish roots

"Comrade Dag neither Puerto Rico or Cuba were invaded by Haiti this is a most important distinction and having lived there PR that is they also cherish there Spanish roots"

Can you say with ABSOLUTE certainty that Haiti invaded DR? You cannot, for if you study the historical record you will find that a sizeable portion of the Dominican population actually sought and worked toward unification with Haiti back then.

the fact is dominicans have african white and taino indian in there blood. The problem is that some proud to be black nazis always want to dictated to us that we should only regcognised the african side only . that my friend is reversed discrimanation . you see this all the time with african americans in the us, in school I had black people who would some times confused me fro being ethiopian or from ghana becaused Iam brown skin and have indian hair. I would tell them that i am dominican and they would say you dont look like it or that dominican are racist and dont regcognised themselves has being black? you see this ignorant stuff with black people alll the the time, becaused there branwash with being divided and just thinking that being black , has earn them the right to be racist because they been discriminated. african americans are way more racist then white people here in the east coast .

pepe32, I think that you are still missing the point as always. I have not dismissed the Spanish heritage that we have , nor do I consider our African roots as native, maybe you missed the edit on the lat post, since your reading is one dimensional and only looking for certain things without reading for comprehension. I consider myself mixed and no I am not a one dropper, for if I was, then everyone on the mother will be African, since our human geneology tree takes there time after time.

**Dagtan perhaps you need to learn how to explain yourself better since it is from your writing that people in this forum get their impressions of your ideas and you really need to learn to be clearer.

It is clear that your knowledge is limited when it comes to human geneology and the origins of our specie. Pepe32, those nuts that use the one drop system are as crazy as you are when trying to defend one or the other.

** As usual you make assumptions about others knowledge without having a clue to whom you are responding to.On the African origins of humanity ,Africa is a CONTINENT not a race and to imply that coming from Africa makes all people black or negroid is pure ignorance.I have never said that one drop of white blood makes a person white so the comparison is not only ridiculous but it lacks honesty.

hellborn25, I think I uderstand your post, if not please correct me. You are saying that if we as a people that have 84% of our population with a mullatoes majority and you know what is the definition for mullatoes, right? So I will not waste one line going over that.

Your experience is very similar to mine, since I attended most of my school in the U.S. and I am a mulato, whith european facial features, however, I was often accused of not recognizing my african roots or tainos roots. Hellborn, we get it from the African americans who are often one dropers and the Puertoricans and Cubasn who are very comfortable with their africanism and native roots.

We can even fight back, since we as people are not raised to be comfortable talking about our african roots, they teach us a little about our natives roots. I attended DR until the 7th grade and never learned that I might be part african, so you this is where we run into trouble when talking about heritage. We are not as,

comfortable as the other islands in the caribbean. I think that it is a lack of education and the hands of the elites (mostly european) to maintain their headlock on the Dominican majority.

I do understand how some here are concerned about people bringing this topic up, but I think that it is very healthy to do so, since we need to one day define ourselves as a people.

pepe32, you know better what I meant about the african geneology, so do not play stupid, that is very silly of you. We are not in an elemtary school, so there is no need to go and give a full blown explanation and clarification for our methods of delivering information.

Yes, sometimes I really feel like my writing is too idealistic and centrist for this forum, but that does not mean that it is confusing. People around here needs to read between the lines sometimes, not every thing needs to be so literal, that if anyones tries to say differently it will simply lose its meaning.

pepe32, I know you fully understand what I am talking about, but always opt for taking bits and pieces and fliping them around to fit your view. I am not upset about that, since that is part of exchanging info an a given topic.

I know that I am a minority when it comes to talking about culture on this forum, but I am not worried since, if no ones talks, then the status quo will stay.

I for one believe that even though our Taino did not survived the syttematice liquidation by the hands of the Spaniards, we must celebrate them front and center, since they take us back to our land and environment. We must also bring front and center our Africanism, that,simply dominates a large part of our everyday living and behaviors. There is no doubt that are connection to Spain through language is the most visible and touchable, but not the most natural and integral to our make up.

**The Tainos as a pure race did not survive but they are in many Dominicans gene pools as proven by recent studies ,the so called systematic liquidation did not occur because most of the deaths were clearly due to disease.I do not have a problem with the celebration of Taino culture or even those who wish to celebrate their African culture .As far as integral to our make up it is highly debatable since you obviousely confuse race with culture .

One can be Black as coal and culturally Spanish or in the case of the Honduran Garifuna who are more native in their cultural aspects than they are African although they are almost pure racially.

I have also met Cubans with blond hair and light eyes who are more African culturally than some black Dominicans .Cibaeños in many areas can be either mixed ,mulattoes or white yet many have a strong Taino cultural imprint.I know it is hard for someone who doesn´t know DR and sees DR from a US point of view to understand this but race and culture are two different things.

The problem I have is that the moment someone wants to celebrate Spanish heritage the howls of discontent are heard from those who hate (yes hate) Spain.the Taino/Spanish mix is at the core of Dominican culture and like any clash between cultures thoughout history it produced something new which is DOMINICAN,later on some African elements were added although for the quantity of Africans the cultural aspects are minimal.

I am always impressed with PuertoRicans and even though their connection to Spain is far stronger than ours and their ancestry far clearly connected via genetics and culture to Spain than us, they still place most value on their Taino roots. They really look at themselves as a Taino people that gives them a special connection to their environment and their people before Spain. You also, look at Cuba and them also being far more connected to Spain in terms of genetics and ancestry than us. They are also very impresive in how they protect their native and African roots to the point that anyone will actually think that they are an african nation.

**The Puerto Ricans celebrate their Spanish heritage and they also celebrate their Taino heritage ,there is nothing wrong with that .

pepe32, please drop Haiti, since we not talking about haiti. Can we talk about us for once, you always forget us.

** Haiti is unfortunately an ever present force in the Dominican reality so to ignore Haiti is to ignore the most negative influence that befell our nation from its inception

Yes, sometimes I really feel like my writing is too idealistic and centrist for this forum, but that does not mean that it is confusing. People around here needs to read between the lines sometimes, not every thing needs to be so literal, that if anyones tries to say differently it will simply lose its meaning.

Dagtan ,you are definitely an idealist and there is nothing wrong with that .I used to be very idealistic in my youth ,perhaps you are still very young because youth is always idealistic but in time most of us mature and become realists .I would not consider you to be a centrist unless it was in comparison to Stalin and Mao but that is very hard to measure and depends on POV.

I think that it is a lack of education and the hands of the elites (mostly european) to maintain their headlock on the Dominican majority.

**There is no such MAJORITY Dagtan since this is not South Africa or Haiti and the "rest" (Non-Europeans) are not one monolithic group and are deeply divided .The majority in the middle feels mainly Dominican and does not care for the labels Spanish,Haitian,Black,White and the only general admiration I see in DR from all groups is for the Taino aspect of our culture .Again you decry the Afrocentrists but are guilty of using many of their arguments.

As far as Cibaeño´s question regarding the Haitian invasion...

If it was not an invasion why did they march in with their armies ?

Some Dominicans did initially support them (there have always been traitors in all times) but once the Haitians took over the overwhelming majority began to detest the invaders and to plan their expulsion.

We never let our guard down again since we knew what Haiti's pretensions were and how they treated our people our "criollos" knew what to expect and fought as if their lives and their families futures depended on winning the battles.

"If it was not an invasion why did they march in with their armies ?

Some Dominicans did initially support them (there have always been traitors in all times) but once the Haitians took over the overwhelming majority began to detest the invaders and to plan their expulsion."

The areas along the border and certain cities in the Cibao raised the Haitian flag over their respective cities or towns several months before Nunez de Caceres declared independence from Spain (in fact he did this in an attempt to trump the pro-Haitian party but it was too late), And recall it took nearly a generation before the sentiment to expell the Haitians was solidified in all levels of Dominican society so one cannot say that once "the Haitians took over the overwhelming majority began to detest the invaders and to plan their expulsion". History doesn't support that assertion.

History has several angles and the struggle for independence was rife with dissension from pro Spanish groups to pro-French groups and even some pro-Haitian groups depending on the different sources it is difficult to state with certainty especially since the closest threat was to the west and many people (throughout history) see the tide turning in one direction and seek to ingratiate themselves with the perceived winner.Many of the people in the east also believed the utopic ideals in western propaganda but once the crackdown on their culture,language and religion began the sentiments quickly turned .It did not help the Haitians to impose upon the people of the east the financial burden they agreed to with the French because just like in todays world people don't like governments touching their pocketbooks and especially when they are not your own.

Cibaeno75, pepe32, is also not aware of the Montegrande revolt just hours after the trabucaso and its origins. This single event showed that Dominicans did not trust the outgoing hatians, neither the mainly Spanish uprising who was taking over the territory with expulsion of the haitians. Thank God for Sanchez, who was able to negotiate between Montegrande and Duarte, since they simply did not trust him with the territories and forced to promise not to return the territories to Spanish rule.

As a result, Duarte had to give up the post of head of the army and name the leader of the Montegrande province as the cmommander in chief of the arma forces fo the new republic. Moreover, Duarte promised to continue to support the Haitian non-slave owning mandates that ended slavery througout the entire territories.

Finally, Haiti's meddling in eastern territories was a take over and a take over could only be interpret as an invasion, so I have to agree that it was such. Cont,

even if initially it was not a violent invasion, it them became an occupation and many suffered and lives were lost to the hands of the occupiers. At the same token many territories benefited from Haitian technological contributions and military training.

This case can be argue for years, but all I have to say is that this invasion or occupation is not a one sided issue in the least of the matter nor its to be viewd through a distorted lens as pepe32 sees it.

Pepe32, if age has not brought maturity to your world view, I guess that it is safe to say that you are a lost case. I only hope that our country will never come under the influence of people like you, becuase if it does, then our natural inclinations and spirits will be all but gone. Who knows, maybe I have a few more ways to go, but you by now should have been there and are looking more short sighted by the minute. Remember, I want to be able to love my country and still love justice. Not willing to trade one for the

other.

"many people (throughout history) see the tide turning in one direction and seek to ingratiate themselves "

The rationale for why people did certain things back then is definitely something that has " has several angles" (as does history as you correctly stated. I like to quote a former professor of mine often who used to say that "history is an argument about the past") but the fact remains that there were elements of Dominican society who were ready for and working toward unification with Haiti in the time directly preceeding Boyer's unification of the island. We must also take into account the fact that Boyer was, through agents, priming certain sectors of Dominican society for unification with Haiti.

Dagtan ,please do not assume what I am aware of or not ,it belies your insecurities..

I reiterate that pre-Independence Dominican republic had many factions leaning in one direction or another but what is undeniable is that all these factions were unified in opposition to the Haitian occupation,after independence these rivalries would resurface and the new Republic was plagued by these divisions for many years.The only common point they all had was the realization of the Haitian threat to our independence which was only fortified after each subsequent invasion.

Sadly once the threat dissipates we go back to our intercine bickering.
**Moreover, Duarte promised to continue to support the Haitian non-slave owning mandates that ended slavery througout the entire territories.

Duarte was not a moron and he did not want to provoke the numerically superior Haitian army which is a gesture of Realpolitik on his part also Duarte's ideals would not have been comfortable with slavery .

pepe32,

"Duarte's ideals would not have been comfortable with slavery" .

Pepe32, on this sinlge phrase you have shown how much you know about our history. In no document presented by Duarte, there is text indicating his upmost hatred for the institution of slavery. Niether he or the other wanted to touch this issue and if you have access to the orignal declaration of independence, there is no language of ending slavery or eradicating it.

Look up the montegrande revolt and not only that pepe32, it was a verbal agreement that salvery will not return, only until later these provisions awere added

Pepe32, if age has not brought maturity to your world view, I guess that it is safe to say that you are a lost case.

If "maturity" is accepting your world view then I guess I am the idealist ... I don't believe in betraying my country like some and I still believe in the idealism of PATRIOTISM and love of country ...I know in todays world these seem quaint but I have seen where your utopic visions have lead the world so forgive my mistrust of leftist "ideals" . You speak so eloquently about justice and yet have had the nerve to mention a murderous fiend like Che Guevara as a hero somehow supporting a murderous ideology and speaking of justice does not equate although in twisted leftist "logic" justice is whatever they consider correct and anyone else is an enemy.

I see that you have not only failed to mature but you tend to argue like a y chromosome deficient person .Anyhow with people like you any country would go down the drain because lleaders have to make difficult decisions and you obviously have trouble taking a stand .We already have a weak president who avoids making decisions but compared to your psych profile Leonel is a macho man!

pepe32, you are an old man and old man often possess wisdom, but it seems that in your case such trait has been elusive. As always, pepe32, you revert back to school yard behavior, once you feel trapped you must become a bully to save face.

pepe32, refrain from name calling or personal attacks since i have never responded to you in such manners. Question all you want my positions, but never cross the line of going after me personally, since i do not want to become disrespectful to the elders, at least that is what my grand mama taught me.

The beauty of human kind is that each and everyone of us is world apart and totally independent from the one beside us, therefore, explore yours and continue to make progress, it is never too late to add knowledge pepe32. I know that i have a long way to go since i have been around for a short period of time. best of luck pepe32 and maybe next time you'll be able to engage with prudence and respect of the ground rules.

more hogwash from comrade dag

El menosprecia lo que piensan los demás pero no lo hace como hombre directamente sino que lo hace como serpiente susurrando para luego hacerse el ofendido cuando le responden directamente .

Es típico de la nueva izquierda hipócrita porque por lo menos los izquierdistas de antaño eran sinceros en lo que querían esta nueva encarnación es hipócrita materialista y le gusta hablar de la "humanidad" pero desde la comodidad de sus escritorios en el primer mundo.

Estos seres quieren una voz suave aunque venga de una lengua serpentina como la de este sujeto.En fin estamos rodeados de traidores desde el gobierno hasta las filas de unos falsos Dominicanos que como muchos de los que defienden solo son Dominicanos por el accidente de haber nacido aquí y no porque lo sienten en su interior.

El camarada Dagostan no entiende que lo de la edad es solo por su actitud inmadura casi femenina y no por mi edad que por lo que dice el sujeto no puede distar mucho de la mía con la

gran diferencia que yo antepongo los intereses Dominicanos a cualquier partido o ideología y aunque reconozco muchos defectos de mi Patria también conozco sus virtudes y no voy a permitir que otros vengan a criticar mi Patria predicando en calzoncillos!

pepe32, looking more childish by the minute, keep digging pepe32. All I am doing i letting you know when you are making a silly child out of yourself, pepe32. Let me know if you want a sucking candy and that way you'll stop crying for the next 20 minutes. Or should give you Jumbo sucker and hopefully it will last till the next article.

How can anyone say that the 22 year Haitian occupation was a positive thing. Have you ever read the manifest of why Dominicans separated from Haiti? That's an official historical record more valueble than any form of literature or history book written by any author. Have you ever read W.E.B. DuBois book about "race." Heres' a quote... "With almost equal certainty, his diary places him in Haiti during 1829, midpoint in the ambitious, repressive presidency of Jean Pierre Boyer, an educated mulatto ruler who fled into French exile in 1843. Under Boyer, Haiti, the French speaking third of the island Hispaniola, brutally conquered Santo Domingo, the Spanish-speaking eastern portion, devastated the Spanish Creole elite, doubled the size of the army, and bound the peasantry to perpetual tillage on the great mulatto plantations. In this way, Haiti maximized its coffee and sugar exports to a United States whose southern parts verged... CONT.

CONT... "On apoplexy over this black republic's continued existence. Machiavellian politics, rampant corruption, and brutal repression kept Haiti, chronically primed to explode along seams of class and color, docile." That's pretty clear that Boyer was a terrible corrupt divisive governor.

Pobre infeliz ,el único que le gusta lame paletas bantú eres tu estimado hermafrodita pero a mi no me incluyas en tu chupadera perversa .A ti y a cien como tu me los meto en un bolsillo ya que se nota a leguas la insignificancia de un ser que busca "aprobación¨y necesita apoyo para poder entra en una discusión ya que careces de intelecto real y de pantalones aun mas pero no te retuerzas en tus bragas que te voy a dejar respirar un poco ya que eres la mejor diversión en este foro .Siento no escribir en tu idioma nativo y darte el peso de buscar la traducción de mis escritos pero me encanta tu falta de versatilidad en el idioma Dominicano ...

Te doy unos días de descanso pero te portas bien bobi..

Heres' the manifest http://www.jmarcano.com/mipais/historia/manifiesto.html

Dagtan has multiple identity crises ,he cannot find it in his supposedly Dominican heart to say anything good about DR yet his apologetics of Haitian barbarism in DR is of mythical proportions .You can search his writings and never find anything positive about DR.

Ranchero ,don´t expect Dagtan to read in Spanish and least of all any writings that contradict the afronazi view of history.

I see! Pepe32.

Ranchero ,you have just met the resident pro-Haitian ,he defends Haitians so much that even some Haitians in this site are more pro-Dominican!

Thanks for the info Pepe32. But really if you look at historical facts much of the western portion of the new republic, especially the border area's were mostly inhabited by Haitians that encroached on Dominican lands. Even Hincha the birthplace of Pedro Santana was no longer dominated by native Dominicans. It turned into a Haitian dominated land area, where even Pedro Santana's family moved from. The border towns naturally raised the Haitian flag upon the entrance of Boyer's army, which later entered Santo Domingo and also Santiago. The flag of Gran Colombia was raised by the criollos in Santiago and Santo Domingo. I seriously doubt that the Haitian flag was raised in most of the villages within the Santiago area. The inhabitants of said area suffered the most, the massacres of 1805 in the hands of Christophe and Dessalines army.

pepe32, geting lower by the minute, back to topic please. i want to see a little deeper into your knowledge base, or have I hit rock bottom?

Ranchero, follow my post and see for yourself, i believe in the truth be it hurtful or not. I have not seen anyone on this forum celebrate the haitian occupation of the eastern territories. Only in pepe32's mind that exist. However, some will argue wether it was an invasion, occupation, devastation, rampage, people will argue for ever on those terms. One thing we all know is that it was not good for the people of the east and even haitians if they think otherwise, then they have not read the history of conflict.

Amazing!

Here we have a seemingly innocuous story that should not have drawn more than three to five comments on a slow day. Mention a few key words and look what happens: more than 60 commentaries, and some emotional and polarizing dialog!

Nothing seems to shake forum contributors than the interjection of race or anything Haitian. We have become very one-dimensional and, consequently, cannot really have meaningful and deep dialog on important issues, issues that could actually bring about positive changes in our country. Perhaps, more than we clearly realize, we are all guilty of squandering and hijacking some good opportunities. Perhaps we could all learn from this experience and move forth-constructively!

What do you think?

All historical records and books clearly define the 22 year occupation as a miserable experiment. That at the end created more hatred towards Haitians due to the double faced Boyer. Which at first promised to serve the interests of the masses. But the interests of the wealthy were betrayed by stealing there lands and not allowing family members to acquire the same properties, left by people who either emigrated, or moved into the interior of the country near and around the mountains of the Cibao Valley. The trade and commerce in the country was naturally runned by the Criollos and Spaniards, since the former slaves and few remaining slaves would not ever be able to trade with whites outside of there borders. That's why the whole excuse about whites having a monopoly on land is ridiculous, people got to remember that the Americas were all subjugated by one thing and that was slavery unfortunately. Haiti became the first black republic but was shunned by the outside world. CONT.

Cont... That's why Haiti did not developed itself, but instead was forced to pay an indemnity to France. Which Boyer the Haitian dictator forced Dominicans' to contribute, it was a failed plan from the get go. On top of that Dominicans did not want to be ruled by a nation of former slaves, which had a deep seated hatred towards anything not black, afterall Haiti's army was majority black.

"The flag of Gran Colombia was raised by the criollos in Santiago and Santo Domingo."

That is FALSE. At no time did the flag of Gran Colombia fly over Santiago and if anyone has any proof otherwise then please step forward and enlighten us. As a matter of fact, the Haitian flag was raised in Santiago MONTHS before Nunez de Caceres declared independence from Spain by a group of men lead by someone named Juan Nunez Blanco. As a matter of fact. many of Santiago's commercial elite from the era, composed primarily of Catalans, signed a document declaring their wish to form a union with Haiti in the same era we're refferring to (one can reference this fact in Joaquin Balaguer's La Isla al Reves).

" The border towns naturally raised the Haitian flag upon the entrance of Boyer's army, which later entered Santo Domingo and also Santiago. "

The haitian flag was hoisted over the border areas and several inland towns months BEFORE Boyer's army entered what is now Dominican territory. The ground work for unification was layed out months ahead. It's all part of the historical record.

those historical documents are riddled with attitude and opinion just like most of the hogwash you put out

"those historical documents are riddled with attitude an opinion "

LOLOL...And you're in a position to say as much because??
Stick to what you know...otherwise you run the risk of looking the fool.

hmmm, interesting....I cite history and someone has decided that my statements were inappropiate! LOL Hilarious..whomever did as much know this...some historical facts may be troublesome to those who care to really study it but it's history nonetheless.

some historical facts may be troublesome to those who care to really study it but it's history nonetheless.as taught by politically motivated inhabitants of the grassy knoll with axes to grind and hidden agendas to push ......New Age Propaganda

Hay goulet, I'm discussing my people's history with my compatriots and I'm more than willing to offer up any reference material to anyone who cares to dialogue as an adult...if you have nothing concrete to contribute to this discussion than silence yourself and continue your shenanigans on some other thread...some of us are ACTUALLY interested in something other than back and forths with senseless banter.

dont talk to me like that I am not Italian ...I live in the DR ....you are a sentimental tourist ,pining your days away with your imaginings ....yes imaginings ....if it is so important to you fool stop shooting of your pompous mouth and return to your parents country and fix it ....I do something everyday to improve where I live which is directly in front of the Alcazar Museum the one in the photo above not in Staten Island with your Italian Paisanos or on the Knoll where your intellect dwells

cibby quit plugging your own posts

Goulet, I'm discussing history here, one of my passions, and you resort to insulting me for as much and belittling what I'm bringing to the table. I don't give a damnas to what it is you're imagining your contributing to Dominican society. Right now you're just being plain obnoxious. I don't know what peaves you have today but take a deep breath and relax for I stole nothing from you nor do I intend to.

Whatever the historical records, I'm with Pepe32, we should embrace all our traditional narratives but Spainish is our unifying theme........Not according to our great historical scholar ......I can hardly wait for his learned opinion

Well mister you could tout you're point that Haitian flags were raised in the moon or even mars. But it only took less than a year for conspiracies against Boyer to be raised, heck people were fed up with his land reform plans that were nothing but a huge scam. And clearly evident the foundations of Haiti's racist constitution that forbade whites from landownership and property, were applied. Even Duarte's family became poor because of such attrocities. Before the planned invasion he already had spies in the country trying hard to start a tiny slave rebellion, but it did not work, the conspirators were murdered. And even before that, Boyer was threaten by France to pay a ransom that will bring them to their knees, that's why he wanted unification, his army officers also were hungry to make money. Do you remember "Los Alcarrizos" in 1824 where many whites were murdered by the army of Boyer, and throughout his machiavellian and corrupted administration. CONT.

Cont... Dominicans rebelled against the Haitian occupiers. And even Sanchez and other Dominicans secret members of los Trinitarios integrated themselves politically in Haiti to oust Boyer from power. WhIch finally worked, for even Haitians were tired of Boyer's abuses upon them.

Ranchero, take a close look at the Alcarrizos rebellion and find out who comprised the justices that sentenced the men involved (and some were sentenced to death). You'll see that they were ALL, to a man, members of Santo Domingo's elite of the time who were in the service of the Haitian regime. If you really want to study the era we're discussing in depth look into the works of Jose Gabriel Garcia...several of his works are available in their entirety in Google Books.

Dude the white elite as an establishment was obliterated in Spanish Santo Domingo. And only people that were kept captive were cooperating with Boyer. The Haitian mulatto elite took over for many years, but as his administration became weaker, Dominicans started taking over the reigns of Haiti's elite in Spanish Santo Domingo. That's how Dominicans started creating they're own government... At the end it's all said and done Boyer was evil, and his intentions were to destroy the spirit of Dominicans from establishing there own nation, which was different than Haiti, culturally, race wise etc, etc.

Cibaeno75, you are fighting a lost cause my friend. One thing about certain people on this forum is that if you present facts and historical accounts that do not macth their wanted views, then you are declared un vende patria y haitiano tapao. They do not want to deal with the facts, they simply want to see things as they think should be.

I have been trying for long to provide posts that are based on historical facts about our history and show light into what really took place. I have in the past clearly stated that the anti haitian movement in Quisgueya began much after the foundation of the republic. Not to say that were pockets of anti hitian, but the systematic anit haitian movement began many decades later. One way to prove this is by looking at the original documents that were put forth by our founding fathers. These documents do not contain one ounce of anit haitian in them, if the anti haitian movement was so great, then it was in the best interest of our founding,

Keep his feet to the fire he makes it up as he go's along ...or.citing obscure pamphlets and pay no attention to Comrade Dag

"The Haitian mulatto elite took over for many years, but as his administration became weaker, Dominicans started taking over the reigns of Haiti's elite in Spanish Santo Domingo. "

That's not fact and again I refer you to the works of the Dominican historian Jose Gabriel garcia, who wrote in the 19th century just several decades after what we're discussing transpired. The fact is that since the VERY beginning of the haitian occupation their were what we would call "elites" from the Spanish side cooperating with them. The most illustrious would be Don Tomas de Bobadilla but there were several more. Also, the VAST majority of the military figures who were so prominent in our wars of independence, including Santana, served in the Haitian militia during the Haitian era.

"makes it up as he go's along ..."

No one rivals your dominance in that category Banistan!

"Keep his feet to the fire he makes it up as he go's along ...or.citing obscure pamphlets"

Jose Gabriel Garcia is considered the father of Dominican history. He may be obscure to you but I'm certain that many, many historians are.

to make sure that such language appeared on these documents to secure that the guards stood up both materially and socially against haitians. This not to say that what the haitians did was not bad or devastating to the estern people and territories, but history is history.

Also, people around here often fail to look at the Montegrande revolt which took place just hours after the trabucaso, this I believe is the most imporant moment in the foundation of the Republic. This was in fact the first executive order of the newly installed government and it shaped the republic for ever. Duarte at this point realized that it was impossible to revert back to status quo pre-hatian invasion and in a surprise move for the hacendados declared the territories free and an independent government was created.

Without the revolt, the territories will surely come back to those that supported the uprisng in the first place and in most cases those were the land owners that displaced by haiti.

Dagtan, I'm at a loss when you're referring to the Montegrande revolt. Isn't the Montegrande revolt the one that occured among the slaves and free people of color under the colonial Spanish government initiated by Sanchez Ramirez (who had died by the time of the revolt)? As such, how does it tie in to what transpired with Duarte and his group?

Dagtan what's the point of continuing the saga, Dominicans did not share the ideals of Boyer or Haitians stealing from them. The Dominican peasantry was bound to the land as slaves... The racial differences, the militarization from a black hostile majority and it's abuses were not welcomed by the common Dominican period. You could create an illusion but Dominicans already were forced to taste the style of governance prevalent in Haitian society. The one that robs people blind! That's the main reason why Haiti is such a mess presently as we speak.

Dagtan or Cibaeño75 how do you explain the internal wars between the black majority Haitians versus the mulatto minority Haitians. A bloody civil war that caused the country of Haiti, to be divided North as a Kingdom headed by Christophe (and further massacre of mulattoes in his kingdom)... and the southern smaller land mass headed by Petion. How do you explain the massacre of the whites in 1791, and further annihilation of the whites under Dessalines, and an anti-white constitution... And also i forgot the murder of many mulattoes under emperor Faustin Soulouque, explain those to me?

cibaeño said: "That's not fact and again I refer you to the works of the Dominican historian Jose Gabriel garcia, who wrote in the 19th century just several decades after what we're discussing transpired. The fact is that since the VERY beginning of the haitian occupation their were what we would call "elites" from the Spanish side cooperating with them. The most illustrious would be Don Tomas de Bobadilla but there were several more. Also, the VAST majority of the military figures who were so prominent in our wars of independence, including Santana, served in the Haitian militia during the Haitian era."

That's right, ciby. The majority of the historians of this country concur on the fact that during a great part of the occupation, the dominican population practically self-policed themselves, although this began to change after the initial years of the payments of the french debt (1830's) (cont...)

(cont...) when the haitian state was in such a state of financial strait and bankruptcy that the bulk of the rank and file of soldiers in the haitian army had to procure their payment at gunpoint, like the spanish soldiers in the Netherlands during the XVIth century, when the spanish crown was in the habit of letting pass long periods of time without paying their soldiers the arrears that were due to them.

Dude talk to me publicly don't send me private messages! Cibaeño75... I'm done with the horrible 22 year Haitian occupation... Answer my last post!

Cibby is Jose Gabriel Garcia the same guy who wrote Italian War Heroes and Polish Etiquette and then Black People I have Met while Yachting " ......those were very short books

Viva Franco Viva Espana .......Todo Por La Patria

Cibaeno75, you are refering to the revolt that ook place before the independence for the eastern territoties were gained by the trinitarios. The people of montegrade who were a mixed province of free ex-slaves and mullattoes had suffered tremendously under the Spanish rule and id not fare any better under the Haitian occupation. They were very concerned that Duarte will return the territories to pre-haitian occupation status and have their ex-slaves poppulation reclaimed and the mullattoes were fearful of loosing the freedoms they have gained so far. Once news of the trabucaso reached Montegrande and the text of the declaration of independence were know, the poeple there became angry at the inclusion of this phrase on the origan document (As a Spanish people we defeated the haitian, edit).

The declaration of the estern territories people as a Spanish people prompted the people of montegrande to say no to the new government and revolt. As result, Duarted summoned the leader,

I''m still waiting!

Still waiting!

"Dude talk to me publicly don't send me private messages! Cibaeño75... I'm done with the horrible 22 year Haitian occupation... Answer my last post! "

First of all, the link I sent you I sent it before you even posted. Secondly, it was a link to a work written by the Dominican historian Jose Gabriel Garcia and nothing more. As to your answer to your last post: What does all that have to do with the haitian era in Santo Domingo?

I'm still waiting!!

I answered you already...

Now I'm waiting...what does all that have to do with the haitian Era in Santo Domingo?...All those occurences you cited actually occured about a WHOLE generation before the era we're discussing and none of them occured on what is now Dominican soil, so again...what does all that have to do with the haitian Era in Santo Domingo?...

Ranchero dont throw in the plantano you have got him cornered theonly thing that can save him is the JGLF

of the revolt and the request was for him to promise to the people of montegrande that slavery will never return to the territories and the that the progress made by the mullattoes will be preserved and protected under the law.

Moreover, the leader of the revolt requested to be named the general of the arm forces of the newly formed republic in order to keep the government in check and prevent any further invasion from haiti and Spain. Therefore, this account as the first executive order of the newly form government with the first general of our amr forces being a mulato and not from the dominicant class of the time.

Moreover, this event prevented the territories from simply being re-taken by the displaced land and slave owners who lost everything under the haitian occupation. In essence this is the first and only redistribution of land that took place under our current republic.

Cibaeno, people like Garcia, Torres-Saillant and Pons place this on the hist top five events

Comrade Dag that explains everything ...thank you for clearing that up

dagtan, you'll have to cite a specific work for me (and perhaps even pages) because again, the only revolt I know of originating from Montegrande occured during the era historians refer to as España Boba.

Mister you can't disconnect one from the other, what happened within Haitian society clearly transferred itself into the Dominican society, that was racially more diverse than that found in Haiti. Plus 30% of the Dominican population in that period of Haitian occupation was white! One thing has to do with the other capice! Also the revolutionary spirit of Haiti was inherited by Boyer, the same thing applied... Although Boyer was trapped and duped to pay France the debt, and bill, that Toussaint and Dessalines were not stuck to pay. Answer my last post...

I'm still waiting!!!

"Mister you can't disconnect one from the other, what happened within Haitian society clearly transferred itself into the Dominican society,"

See, that's called a supposition, a theory, a hypothesis. I state facts and you state interpretation. We're obviously having a very different exchange.

"Answer my last post... "

Already did.

o what a tangled web we weave cibby

As for you're question Cibaeño75, the books have been written and sealed... Most newly arrived historians like Pons and others, are just adding stuff to make a mark, or to differentiate from past history authors that have done a superb work in interpreting the history of the Dominican Republic without omission of the juicy and most important events in the narrative. I believe in the results of history not in the question marks???... And you still did not answer, the racial problems between the majority black Haitians and the minority mulatto Haitians that permeates Haitian history... With bloody consequences... That includes our resident Haitian Dagtan!

hey dag I do agree theres needs to be more regcognition in dominican schools about our african side. but I wont say that dominicans denied the fact that they have black blood in them . I grew with alot of dominicans and alot would of them would say jokes about how some are blacker then others and sometimes they would say racial humors about themselves . my problem was always with african americans who would sometimes classified me has being a negro not even a mullato negro just a straigh negro. I got indian hair too sometimes they would be confused about my race like what the fuc are you bro? are you inidian black or spanish or what? I got that alot in school . but there is a acceptanced of ignoranced in the united states with black people and white people also. caus if a white person ask you what country you from and you say the dominican republic . Ill bet you a white person in america would say where in mexico is that?

hey dag I do agree theres needs to be more regcognition in dominican schools about our african side. but I wont say that dominicans denied the fact that they have black blood in them . I grew with alot of dominicans and alot would of them would say jokes about how some are blacker then others and sometimes they would say racial humors about themselves . my problem was always with african americans who would sometimes classified me has being a negro not even a mullato negro just a straigh negro. I got indian hair too sometimes they would be confused about my race like what the fuc are you bro? are you inidian black or spanish or what? I got that alot in school . but there is a acceptanced of ignoranced in the united states with black people and white people also. caus if a white person ask you what country you from and you say the dominican republic . Ill bet you a white person in america would say where in mexico is that?

I'm still waiting Cibao & Dagtan i'm patient!

"the racial problems between the majority black Haitians and the minority mulatto Haitians that permeates Haitian history... "

Maybe you should be asking: what effect did the Haitian view of race have on the Haitian Era in Santo Domingo? Then your query would make sense in the context of the discussion we're having. Is that what you're asking?

In short the same! racial conflicts made even worse by a white dominant class in Spanish Santo Domingo... I'm out for lunch, but you have not answered my first question earnestly.

" I'm out for lunch, but you have not answered my first question earnestly. "

Perhaps you should re-phrase it as I am at a loss as to what it is you're attempting to convey or even ask.

cibby you have been out to lunch and at a loss for most of your life .....pity

hellborn25, going to NYC schools I afced that eveyday. As you said, I was accused of denying my alliance to Africa not only by African Americans, but also by PR. I think as I stated before, the problem is not in denial, but in lack of education. We are not taught to deal with our mixed ancestry and when we find ourselves in such situations at an early age, we simply got stuck since there is nothing for us to connect with.

I am lucky that I was able to get educated and become comfortable and knowledgeable talking about our mixed ancestry. We have a beautiful history, but some have become so caugh up with haiti that all they are cognitively able to do is connect all historical background to the invasion of haiti. That is only a spot on our history and not all derive from there. I believe that that with or without such invasion our population will still be highly diversed and mixed today and maybe dealing with the same issues.

Cibaeño75 my question is very clear, you're practically like all Haitians. They ommit anything that goes against there belief system. The Haitians are notoriuos for trying to hide there true racial divisive history, and also attempt there hardest in trying to paint there failed "Revolution" as a successful one! On top of all this they always bring up "Trujillo" plus "Anti-haitianismo" as the worst doctrine or boogeymen ever... But they forget Dessalines and Christophe, that attempted in committing a total annihalition of our population. Before that, Toussaint's invasion and the miserable 22 years of Haitian abuses and exploitation, plus the many incursions into our territory... How great right? With these type of neighbors who needs friends right!

Dagtan you totally exposed you're true identity there! didn't you... Usted es un haitiano guillao de dominicano... pobrecito! y el otro yo ni se de donde es, pero dominicano no parece que tiene mucho. Y se lo dice uno que es Americano y orgulloso de serlo hijo de dominicanos.

ranchero, what are you like 10? I was under the impression that I was conversating with an adult. Obviously I was wrong.

Y ademas ranchero, si estas en la area metropolitana de Nueva York y desea ver de verdad si este individuo que se llama por si mismo cibaeño75 es Dominicano o no sera bastante facil para que usted sepas la verdad...dejame su informacion y me comunicare con usted con mucho gusto.

No i'm not ten and you're not funny... And everything i stated is true, this is not childs play... Perhaps for you, but not for me... Again you're brushing off your shoulders like your friend Dagtan... Unless one of you guys can answer my original question about Haiti's race based wars, then perhaps i could take you guys serious. But for now your just trying to avoid answering a question that honestly has repercussions to you're historical revisionism. That at the end, still had the same outcome separation from Haiti.

Ranchero, I am really sadened to see you going down the road of ignorance as many others here have done in the past. You know right now you are simply CAPING OUT, if you know what that means. It is very easy to say this or that if you do not agree with me then you are un haitiano tapao, you sound so childish and ignorant that it is trully emabrassing to have to read crap like yours on the forum.

Now to your question, about ethnic cleansing, I think that is what you have been asking about, the fact that you were not able to verbalize it does not surpirse me a bit. Please edit if I am using the wrong term when it comes to the haitian issue with mullattoes back in the territories. It is clearly stated in history that haitians systematically eliminated everything that was white (French) in their territories right after the rebellion that was led by toussaint and dessalines.

As the revolt took hold in the haitian territories and the mullattoes, who had in the past recruited,

free blacks and run away slaves, began to assume governmental posts and began to behave like the white masters who by enlarge had either been killed or fled to France by now, the blacks started to view the mullattoes with the same eyes as they did the whites and therefore, the faithful decision was made that they too should go.

This decision by toussaint and dessalines was made when they both when to the governmental palace to negotiate the new rules and political influence of the newly free slaves and the blacks, they were only met with arrogance and distrust from the mullattoes. Now, remember the faithful mistake here by the mullattoes was that they left the military to be heavily populated by blacks and they took all the trade and politcal posts left behind by the whites, so they had no way of defending themselves against the ethnic cleansing that was coming.

So indeed, I belive that Boyer's ultimate dream would have been an all black republic exteding from west to east,

'Verbalize' are you freaking serious, my question was simple and very clear.

I can not say for sure that this ideal was carried out by him, since we do not have any prove that ethnic cleasing took place in the eastern territories, but at the same time I believe that if there were or was one at one time or another, he would have given a blind eye to it. There is very little evidence and I must go back and search a little to be certain about if such cleasing took place in the east.

One thing that eveyone in their mother knows, Ranchero, is that haitians clearly did not trust anything that was not black. Ranchero, this is not rocket science, everyone knows this and it is very simplistic at its root, so when you engage in a high critical thinking conversation, such basic information are assumed to be known by the person. Remember, this is not 9th grade history, where every little detail needs to be presented, I assume that everyone comes on here with a knowledge base, so do not get on the high horse on such simple facts.

but offcourse so yo solamente soy,

un haitiano tapao, verda?

Good for you honesty is the best policy... Now you know that what i posted including the link is true not a lie. As for you're background i'm still not satisfied but at this juncture it don't really matter... "Dagtan"...

Hey Banistan what ever happened to my story about you and Liberace swinging from the chandeliers?

the one you told at the JGLF meeting " Josean Gay Liberation Front "

Your so witty in you OLD age!

" Not that there is anything wrong with that "

With all the oral stimulation you have given to wealthy male genitalia in you life, you should not have anything against that lifestyle!

Dagtan haitiano you wrong buddy ranchero is not going down as ignorant everything he stated is supported by our Trinitario in their time so stop acting as if our independence were given to us by the "angel" Haitians. These pro-Haitian are coming out of the closet fastest than you can say Tadd haggard. I'm really in shock to see so many pro-Haitian in "Dominican" custome. The funny thing is that they are all to the ultra-left. I can see in the near future if we don't get a strong minded Dominican who takes the war to these pacifist, humanist, and pro-Haitian like
Balaguer the history of our country will be re-written.

"I can not say for sure that this IDEAL WAS CARRIED OUT BY HIM, since we do not have any PROVE that ethnic cleasing took place in the eastern territories, but at the same time I believe that if there were or was one at one time or another, he would have GIVEN A BLIND EYE TO IT. There is very little evidence and I must go back and search a little TO BE CERTAIN ABOUT IF SUCH cleasing took place in the east."

I find it strange that someone that cannot write in English (beyond a high school level claims to be a principal in NYC.Either the requirements have been drastically lowered or we have a first class "Jabladorazo" .Maybe Dagtan and dopepeters went to the same school.

All the graduates of JHU (Jabladores Haitianos University) seem to follow the same rules around here .Fortunately they live in a free country and they can say they are Elvis or Napoleon and nobody cares.