PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti.- Midnight, and the dining room at the Oloffson, formerly Port-au-Prince’s grandest hotel, is pounding with the rhythm of two hundred feet and the joyful noise of local band Ram’s ten musicians. Yellow spotlights fill the room with a rich, warm glow, and the air shimmers with the heat of so many bodies, soaked with Prestige beer and voodoo cocktails, moving luxuriously to the beat – a party suspended in a golden droplet of Barbancourt rum. The revellers form a swaying line, and then a circle, and then a shouting, singing crush of random limbs and improvised instruments in the middle of the dancefloor. Tomorrow, we meet the Prime Minister; tonight, we party for Dessalines.
Haitians’ pride in their history and culture is legendary, and an almost corporeal presence in every note of every song, at every meeting table. It’s a ghost walking alongside every man, woman and child, reminding them to straighten their backs, iron their school uniforms, hold fast to the special destiny promised them by their forebears when they declared this mountainous territory the world’s first nation of freed slaves. Any development project initiated here must be undertaken on Haitian terms with full Haitian participation if it is to be successful; cultural and social irrelevance and their capacity for causing dependence and disempowerment are the biggest roadblocks to the long-term effectiveness of humanitarian interventions.
Earlier in the day, I had gone for a tentative exploratory walk around the neighbourhood of Paco. The bright afternoon sun and the schoolchildren stumbling downhill in small, giggling knots had sparked a realization that was always evident on the familiar streets of big Canadian cities but that I had lost sight of amid tales of kidnapping and gun battles on the streets of Port-au-Prince: violence is a lifestyle for a few violent people; the majority carry on living in the crosshairs.
I made my way down to the bottom of the street, greeted with bonsoir mademoiselles and curious but not unfriendly looks, then walked back up again, past the hotel, to the top of a steep and narrow road.
There I stopped and stared at the immensity of poverty: green mountains blanketed in an artificial tree line of patchwork homes, a study in the art of recycling. Breezeblock walls and roofs of hammered oil cans, smoke rising from cook fires in dusty yards, children vanishing and reappearing between lines of hanging laundry, everything open and bare and second-hand but not without beauty.
A water truck decorated with happy faces passed, playing a tinny monophonic rendition of “My Heart Will Go On.” I turned, raised my camera to my eye, and a man called out to me in English from a shady doorway. “Where you from?”
Canada, I told him.
“How long you going to be here?”
“Four days.”
He studied the camera around my neck for a moment. “With what objective?”
It took me a moment to realize what he was really asking; my first thought, as solid and oppressive as the afternoon heat, was I don’t know.
It’s that brief exchange and its weighty subtext I’m thinking of, my brain still slushy with kompa music and rum punch, as our hired car climbs the steep, shady driveway to the offices of Prime Minister Jacques-Edouard Alexis. A former general’s mansion dating from the first Duvalier regime, the building is both home-y and imposing, sparsely furnished but full of light and soaring curves. At a quarter after eight on a Friday morning, a full staff contingent and Alexis himself are already hard at work.
Our meeting with Alexis takes place in Haitian Kreyol, and I listen without understanding, but from his smile and the warm tone of his voice, it’s obvious that the BRA has sailed through another green light on the road to establishment in Haiti.
Hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested in Haiti in the form of relief initiatives and foreign aid over the years, Alexis says in Ulrick Gaillard’s voice, via my tape recorder and a pair of headphones, but the population is still poor. “Not to say that the cooperation with the international community wasn’t important, but it hasn’t led to any concrete results. There is a serious need for the sons and daughters of this country to come back and assist it.”
The country has “a hemorrhage” of qualified human resources dating back to the 1960s and the dictatorship of Francois “Papa Doc” Duvalier, he explains. The ousting of Jean-Claude Duvalier in 1986 helped stem the exodus, but those who left are hesitant to come back due to the lingering instability.
Now, the need for assistance from the diaspora is greater than ever, Alexis says, “but we have to create a formula under which all those Haitians who are professionally competent overseas can come and assist their country without any complications.”
“I have no doubt that your intervention will be a success in Haiti,” he adds, “for one key reason: because development has a lot to do with culture. It has a lot to do with identity, for the person to feel comfortable within themselves, and when the services are offered in their own language, based on their cultural values, those services will be a lot more appreciated, and the change that you are looking for in terms of behaviour will occur very fast.”
With those words, Alexis has contextualized my brief encounter in the rough streets above Paco, and, in a way, absolved me of responsibility to it. In time my memories of my short stay in Port-au-Prince will become like photographs shot on low-speed film – grainy and vaguely sepia-coloured, images from another time, a dream that was never mine to interpret.
For more information on the Batey Relief Alliance, please visit their website.
From: Haiti
Alexandra,
Great article and interesting way of telling yourstory. Yes we are a very proud people and as you mention hinders our growth. Tell Monsieur Alexis, if he wants the diaspora to come back to haiti that they should consider "la double nationalité" which would give the diaspora full access to rebuilding haiti and having a voice. Tell him that many government officials already hold foreign passports while in office which is a violation of the current law. Tell him that once the diaspora comes back that they must respect them and appreciate their open mindness rather than make blood come out of a work "hard headed". Mesi anpil.
Written by: Luvteeth, 30 Jan 2008 11:47 PM
From: United States
Alexandra,
Those rum punches at the RAM concert were really strong. We had a BLAST!!!
Great article. I love your writting style. Keep up the good work. Spread the word about the need to help Haiti and the poor.
Tom
From: United States
I must say i agree with the two guys. The funny thing about Haiti, is that an Indian or Arabian person told me they lived their. And i had a look of disgust and confusion, but as I read and learned about Haiti, is that it isn't as bad as people make it seem. It a WORK in progress but at the end of the day if there's hope and unity, Haiti may regain its title as the Pearl of Antilles, as opposed to the hidden paradise affiliated with immense poverty. Never went to haiti, but I hope 2009 i can finally make my debut there for Carnival. heard that's the time to be hittin up haiti
Written by: josean, 3 Feb 2008 1:53 PM
From: United States
I am embarrassed to say that I have put off going to Haiti because of plain laziness. I plan to go as soon as I can, to learn a lot more about this much unfairly maligned country, its wonderful people and their rich culture.
Once again, Thank you Miss Pope for thoughtful reporting!
From: United States, Brooklyn
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...
From: Haiti
If you're referring to Dessalines as a terrorist (which many people can arguably dispute) then I can easily refer to Duarte as one man's racist (which many people can argue as well) is another man's freedom fighter. If what I assumed about your comment is wrong then ignore this comment.
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2008 8:27 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It's obvious that he's referring to Dessalines like that, mr. Shin, because, to the majority of the "intelligentsia" of the establishment in the western world, Dessalines was a terrorist because he denied the capitalist world of an astoundingly valuable source of income and eliminated or deported in the process the capitalist european elites that profitted from it, which forced the capitalist world to look for other colonies for producing its sugar, coffee, cocoa and indigo, putting places like Brazil, Colombia, Cuba and Puerto Rico suddenly on the forefront, but sadly (for them), the sugar, coffee, cocoa and indigo produced on these places would never equal in quality or profits the ones produced on Saint Domingue. In conclusion, Dessalines memory is condemned to be ostracized forever by the capitalist world, although he will always be on the forefront on the gallery of heroes of the peoples of African descent in America, along with Toussaint, Martin Luther King jr., etc, (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 5 Feb 2008 12:09 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) and that's all that should ever matter for anyone with two fingers on front. If it weren't for his bold stand, the people of African descent would continue to be downtrodden on chattel slavery or worse.
From: Haiti
so if your mom is Dominican and your dad is haitian, so what is that make you?
From: United States, Brooklyn
HAYkickyouintheSHIN: How is duarte a terrorist???? I chanllenge you to prove it
Dessaline invaded DR... Raped and pillaged the country side... there's plenty of evidence to suggest it... Duarte on the other hand was the craftsman of the revolution... If anything duarte was a rebel against an oppressive regime who openly undermined spanish culture...
Written by: Lautaro, 11 Feb 2008 7:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well, Jutland2008, if that someone were to choose the haitian citizenship, that someone would have to renounce any other that he/she might be possessing at the time, because from what I have heard and read, the haitian constitution do not allow the citizens of that country the chance of having double citizenship, as it's the case of the dominican one. It will depend on which country that someone decides to make his/her living in the end. At least that's my opinion.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Carlos Franco,
You claim that Dessaline raped and murdered your people...Can you please provide me with proof to back up that claim.
Written by: antonioj, 12 Feb 2008 2:17 PM
From: Canada, home safe
I am being amazed everyday reading these posts, about what the Dominicans are taught in school with respect to history of the all island, frankly it's a great disservice to peace and harmony
the anti Haitian agenda propaganda is well and alive. I guess it does not benefit some , if H & DR can get along.
We are portrayed as thirsty animal blood sucker !! I wonder if there was any attempt to provide more of a balance fact of history, instead of the distorted version that the Dominicans are learning
this would be the first step toward a long road of better understanding for all of us
From: Haiti
In the DR...Haitians are portrayed as oppressive and terroristic to Dominican security and independence. In Haiti no such thing is taught to students about Dominicans. In fact many Haitians admire the DR for seeking liberty of itself rather than patronize them and see both countries as historically important. CarlosFranco read my post and you'll see that I referred to Duarte as a racist not a terrorist. I am not trying to make yet another verbal war of words regarding our founding fathers because frankly I am beyond that so I'll leave it alone. Dominicans like Rubirosa are angry because he claims Haitians disrespect Duarte. Well how hypocritical those that think like him must be seeing as many of them do not only insult but downright demonize our founding fathers. CarlosFranco you claim that Haitians undermined Spanish culture. Who was the country that willingly let Spain rule over them again after their first freedom fight? DR. Haiti took matters into its own hands.
From: United States, Brooklyn
jemesouviens1804: Re-read the comment I left on the 11. "Dessalines invaded DR... Raped and pillaged the country side... “(Key word country side.) The word rape does not insinuate the rape of a woman but I meant it as the rape of a nation... Example... "The rape of Europe" which was about stealing art during the Nazi occupation... GET IT.
From: United States, Brooklyn
So how did Dessalines raped DR country side... This is from “The Dominican People (a documentary history) by Orlando Inoa y Ernesto Saga “when the French surrendered in Haiti, the French garrison in Santo Domingo refuse to laid down its arms. Dessalines invaded with two large armies which converged on the city of Santo Domingo. They were stopped by the thick walls, artillery and the French garrison. Dessalines who lacked firepower to breach the walls, decided to lay siege to the city and starve its inhabitants into surrendering. For weeks the French and the local inhabitants defending Santo Domingo City feared the worst, when suddenly a French fleet appeared on the horizon. Dessalines interpreted this as a signal of an impending invasion of Haiti and retreated to the safety of the western part to prepare his country’s defense. In the course of the retreat, the Haitian army carried out a “scorch earth” campaign, burning towns and villages, and taking groups of people hostages."
From: United States, Brooklyn
jemesouviens1804:
You can go to Barnes and Nobel and read it on page 66 and 67...
And now that I have proven to you where i get that Dessilne raped and pillaged my coutnry.... please prove to me how Duarte is a Racist...
From: United States, Brooklyn
and now its your turn "HAYkickyouintheSHIN"
"CarlosFranco you claim that Haitians undermined Spanish culture. Who was the country that willingly let Spain rule over them again after their first freedom fight? DR. Haiti took matters into its own hands."
because of neglect by spanish authorities and resentment for being sold to the French, Jose Nunez de Caceres, declared Dominican independance on December 1, 1821, calling it "Haiti Espanol" 5 weeks later, Boyer was in santo domingo with an army, and 22 years of misery began for my people... this period of our history is called, "Ephemeral Independence"
This is why Dominicans chose to embrace colonization once again... they preferred the less of two evils...
I don't have time to describe the occupation it self but you can read about it online of simply buy a book. i would certanly love to read the occupation from a haitian perspective.
So how is Duarte a racist???
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
wow, I have to go to Barnes&Nobles to see if your telling the truth....You just proved nothing to me sir. Its all rethoric. LOL
From: United States, Brooklyn
jemesouviens1804: You're in denial, its ok... You're not the only one. I simply asked you to go because since you hate us so much i don't think you would want to buy a book about our history and while you're at BN you can simply browse throught it without having to purchase it. Also It means that am not full of it... Like SOME PEOPLE here, who talk garbage without proof. I offered you proof and you've refuse to accept it which lets me know that you're in DENIAL and REFUSE to accept the TRUTH!!!!
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
I agree with Mr Carlos Franco 100% , Haitians are abusing the Dominican Republic for their own agenda and motives.
To the international community They want to be the victims and push Dominicans to be weak and portray us like invaders.
It will be politcally correct to say that Haitians are abusing the good will of the DR and there is so many factors and indications that I already posted in different posts already.
Don't want to be boring and the same haitians saying the opposite know better and want to play the victim
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
The day of Juan Pablo Duarte Birthday lots of Haitians had the big guts to attack him saying lots of controversial and negative information about him.
Before that I wouldn't say negative information and by the way (TRUTH) against any founding father of Haiti but You know what one thing is being "Nice" and the next is being "Dumb"
You push us and say stuff that is offensive and negative against the DR legacy and history and then You expect us to be passive about it.
We are living in a era that if You have the courage to show me a gun on my face don't expect me to show you a knife back, expect a M-16 or a AK-47.
Stop being the victims and fight for your country on the other side of the island not on DR.
22 years of abusive occupation 1821-1844 was enough and is written on history books is not a myth.
So choose to be pollite and educated or face the collateral consequences..............IN A NICE WAY
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) regarding the boring issue about the "Chickens and eggs" that's when I really learned who Haitians were.
They have the right to fight for their people and country (I give you this respect) but don't treat DOMINICANS like "Forrest Gump" making and creating data, information for your own benefit.
I might agree that some people that have business lost money but others in DR didn't and want to abuse and milk the goverment to get money back and abuse our country.
Don't be scare but you know what there is a project in the goverment and They are working to export lots of products to other countries so We don't have to sell you cheap stuff and bad quality products for your sacred and blessed people.
I got access to the information so I wait and enjoy the news once is officialy posted on the media.
The goverment is doing its best right now so We are not portrayed as " "
whatever names You want to call us, let's wait and see.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
telling me to go to BN to look at a book is not giving me cold hard proof. Plus if this author is of Dominican ancestry, that alone diminishes his credibility. We all know how most Dominicans view Haitian history. Until you can provide me with cold hard proof, please let the legacy of the man who started the fight to free the world from slavery rest in peace.... How come your not complaining about the spaniards raping and committing genocide on you people.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Spain created, civilized, educate and build Dominican Republic and make us unique and proactive.
The motherland is the main and biggest donor, helper and funder of all the best and great programs, plans and projects for the whole Dominican Republic.
These are facts, not misinformation and the statistics are in the "Banco Central" and "Banco de Reservas" I don't want or neet to prove the numbers, If Everybody wants to believer "OK" other than that, I don"t care.
Spain help the Dominican Republic more than any other country so What are We supposed to do look at "France" as the motherland when We will never have something in common or related.
"God Bless the motherland SPAIN" "Sacred and Beutiful"
I being in Spain many times and is a great and honorable civilization that We could be proud to belong to..................................OLE
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Hmmm.... That must be a different Spain then. Because the one I know had a lot of crime on its hand. Kidnapping, torture, rape, slavery, genocide, and diseases...None of that sound familiar. And Rubirosa, if your so proud of Spain, then you should go and petition your country to revert to being a colony of theirs for the Second time.
Written by: Lautaro, 14 Feb 2008 9:23 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
And they have continued to steal from us, mr. jemesouviens. Maybe Rubirosa don't remember that Union Fenosa (a spanish electricity company), stole millions upon millions of dollars from the DR, and are still doing so with the so called "Madrid Agreement", from which the DR government have committed itself to pay them for "losses incurred" during their operations on the country for a period of 15 years. That's what I'd call the robbery of the century, you see, Fenosa have accomplished what no other business have done: Monopolize the electricity distribution of a given state, steal millions from the state's electricity corporation and bankrupt it, and then, force the same gov from the country that they stole from to pay for the expenses of their scam!!!!.
From: United States, Brooklyn
jemesouviens1804: My family are decendants of Galician Immigrants durig the 1850's. And as Rubirosa mentioned, Spain is a country to be proud of, not ashamed off... But thats ancient history. It is true that Spain committed many crimes but we have also fought them for our independence in 1865 remember... and won. We only reverted back into the empire so as to receive security from the Haitian threat.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Over 1 million blood on their hands and you still admire Spain. Wow, I respect France but will admire that govt. Thats what separates Haitians from Dominicas.
From: United States, Brooklyn
There are alot of things that separates us... Economics, Developments and CESFRONT
Written by: Pepe32, 15 Feb 2008 1:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
por eso se ven estos seres defendiendo a la nación que mas nos ha invadido y saqueado durante la historia mientras atacan a el corazón cultural de nuestra Patria que aunque hemos tenido diferencias son problemas entre familia .
Aparte de los empresarios y ganaderos principales la inmigración ilegal Haitiana es netamente negativa para nuestra Patria y es una violación de nuestra soberanía por eso las deportaciones deben de seguir y la frontera debe de ser militarizada.
From: United States
Pepe 32 I agree with you 100%.
From: United States, Brooklyn
Rubirosa checkout "the new apartheid" on youtube... You'll find some personal accounts of the zimbawe example you mentioned above.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
CarlosFranco: Thanks brother and will check it up on youtube, very good and proactive on your side and keep you posted.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Pep32 is so quick to denouce Dessaline but will never admit to the crimes that your Spainiard fathers committed on you people. You guys make me sick. Stop your spewing about Dessalines. If you dont have nothing positive to say about this article then dont comment.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
What kind of crimes?????
From: Haiti
JRubirosa what do you mean what kind of crimes? Are you so freaking stupid that you cant see that the spaniard had done us wrong.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To Jutland2008: I might be stupid according to Your standars RIGHT???
So What We have to do right now side with the haitians because there is people here that already imply thaf France is the biggest donor when is not truth.
Or maybe lie and say that England or Canada are the biggest dominican donors.
If You have a GENIUS mind then is up to you to accept your nearsightness and lack of concept.
Spain is the biggest donor ($$$$$$) for Dominican Republic, so according to you MR PHD what are we suppose to do (Side with the Haitians and French????) When We don't belong to that league.
Unless that you are Haitian too???
In the meantime I really enjoy being stupid and respect the motherland and the Spanish crown.
SO OLE.............................................................................
From: Haiti
Rubirosa you're just utterly ****. We're talking about Spain during colonial times not modern times you rambling ****. Talking about "Spain donating this and that". Trying to say as if the Spaniards didn't do any horrible crimes during their tenure on Hispaniola. What the hell you mean by motherland? You come across as a very patriotic Dominican yet you call Spain...the country that colonized your side of the island the motherland. The DR should be your motherland if you love it so much. Your comment on zimbabwe Rubirosa makes yet again no sense. You'd rather live in an economically prosperous country and be discriminated against in that same country even though the majority of the people are like you?
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To HaYkicyouintheSHIN: So then what about France?????
None of your people have answer the question yet
As far as I know They did lots of wild acts in Haiti, and let me correct the main reason to elevate Spain so much, one of Your gang was implying that We have to kiss France You know what for not reason.
Is up to Haitians to adore France but don't You and your gang try to brainwash me to join You as a Zombie, I do have my knowledge, principles and agenda very clear.
Regarding the Zimbawe issue might be too complicated and deep for your gang to debate and ending up in a dead end street.
To jemesouviens: Good advice and comments, Mercy Boucop Madam Souviens
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to:Rubirosa,
French is not your language aight. Stick to your English okay. Leave French to those who speak it.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Jemesouviens: BIg Deal...........................
Your people are so narrow minded, nearsighted and backwards.
From: United States, Brooklyn
jemesouviens1804
"French is not your language aight. Stick to your English okay. Leave French to those who speak it. "
DR is not your country so leave it for those real dominican citizens... And by the way YOU DON"T SPEAK FRENCH EITHER... You speak that non-sense vodoo language of Creole, which no one but haitians bother to learn
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
LOL.......Nice one CarlosFranco. You listen to too much Dominican propaganda video on Haitians. If Haitians dont speak French why is it even an Official language in Haiti. Plus Creole has no distinct connection with voudou sir. Creole is a language created by French slavemasters.... Tu es l'un des Dominicains les plus stupides que j'ai connu. Vas te faire foutre mon cher. Tu parles beaucoup mais tu ne sais rien de la culture Haitienne. Ce qui est encore pire tu ne vis meme pas a la Republique Dominicaine. Je te suggeste de savoir un peu de notre culture avant de dire que je ne sais pas paler Francais parce que je pe l'ecire le lire et le comprendre.
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Feb 2008 6:29 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
You'll have to excuse me if I may sound somewhat offensive on this opinion, mr. jemesouviens, but I think that the fact of using french as an official language while the lingua franca of the population is kreyol, may be one of the reasons behind Haiti's current postration. You see, it would not be until Aristide's presidency that kreyol would be elevated to governmental status along with french, and that efforts for the production of knowledge material on that language (books, discourses, radio programs and the like) would actually be carried about. Before then, all the books and other sources of knowledge from the country would be only produced in a 90% in french, a language that is only spoken fluently by a 10% of the population at best, and those are, precisely, the elites of the country. A country that have its elites and population speaking and thinking in two different languages can't find it easy to have the cohesiveness and unity of purpose necessary to advance common goals.
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Feb 2008 6:37 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) also, the task of educating the population becomes all the more difficult, because the sources of knowledge necessary to carry out their education on their native language find themselves in scarcity, which puts the population on the troubling position of having to learn a foreign language first in order to have the opportunity to learn the career of their choosing.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Lautaro,
You are unlike many Dominicans on this website that spew their hatred of Haitians. You are a very liberal(in a good way), and I admire that. However, my friend, in this situation you are wrong. I was born in Haiti and my first language was French. I did not know what Creole was till I got to the U.S. Now my families in Haiti were not poor, but we certainly were not considered "Elites". So I find it difficult that in a country were most signs are in French, the President speaks French, TV is in French, and Radio is in French, you've manage to come up with only "10 percent" of the population( of 9 Million people) understanding and knows how to speak the languauge. Dont get me wrong sir, I know that Creole is a little more orally popular but 10 percent? For goodness sakes Lautaro, Creole is 90 percent french words. My father, mother, Grandmother, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins all speak French. We all cant be part of that "10" in which you describe.
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Feb 2008 7:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I was only voicing what I have read on a report made by the jesuits of the GARR, mr. jemesouviens. On that report they said that kreyol is the most spoken language on the island, followed very closely by spanish and then, on a far third place, with french and english. If you have another report saying otherwise, I will welcome it with open arms, until then, I'll stand by their report. From what I understand, the jesuits are the most outspoken defenders of your compatriots and your culture that I have found yet on the entire island, and they're not known for making light remarks on subjects like this.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Lautaro,
My little cousin who lives with me spent 12 of his 15 years in Haiti and can attest to what I am saying. He learned to speak French through his parents and through schooling. In relation to young childrens, they mostly speak Creole at home. Now, if what you are saying is right and if the report by the "Jesuits" is true, that only speaks to people who are in the rural part of the country and have no education. The majority of Haitians (middle and Upper-Class) knows how to speak French sir. Plus theres hundred of thousands in France, Martinique, and Quebec that only speak French.
Written by: Lautaro, 17 Feb 2008 8:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
That might be so, mr. jemesouviens, because the jesuits of the GARR are mostly based on the Central Plateau of the island, and from my understanding, that's one of the most heavily populated areas on the entire country, also, you have to take into account that Haiti's emigré population is still numerically inferior to the islander one, if we were to take them as a whole. Unlike the DR's case, in Haiti there are still many people living on the countryside, despite the fact that they're not reaping many benefits by living of the land as it was the case some decades ago (specially after the Reagan's administration ordered the decimation the country's swine population and sabotaged the country's rice production). I guess that those campesinos have taken to heart the theory that states that the property of the land (no matter how little the plot in their possession might be) is the foundation of their freedom.
From: United States, Brooklyn
No i have not been listening to anti hatian dominican propaganda on haiti, but i have seen a million haitian tell me that they speak creole... thats where i get my data... and since you live in the US am not surprise that you can read and write, perhaps i should ask a haitian in haiti to write the french language as you just did... some how i doubt it will be the same
Perhaps it's also a dominican conspiracy that something of a language known as creole does exist...
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Trust me you will be surprise....And when you do ask that Haitian make sure its someone who is educated and not "Haitian-Tupac" that lives in the countryside or in Cite Soleil, and doesnt even know how to spell his name. That beats the whole purpose of finding out if Haitians Speak French, in which you say they dont. Till then....Au-revior
Written by: Pepe32, 18 Feb 2008 2:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
"The majority of Haitians (middle and Upper-Class) knows how to speak French sir."
The fact is that the MAJORITY of Haitians are illiterate and that small group (middle class and elite) are a tiny group in most poor countries and Haiti being the poorest by far in the hemisphere cannot have much of a middle class.
From: United States, Brooklyn
Educated? you mean a haitian-elite.... i want the language of the streets not those of the rich who can afford an education
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
You know what, both of you are starting to piss me of with your constant Haitian bashing. F*** what you heard or think about Haiti. Your not Haitian so how in sane hell are you going to tell me what language my people and I speak. This is an article discussing progress in Haiti and if you not here to celebrate/discuss this, you should not be commenting. Get your head out your ass and learn to show a little bit of respect to peoples culture, nation, language, and heros. I hope you guys remember February 28 is just around the corner.
Written by: Pepe32, 18 Feb 2008 11:46 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I remember what you call "haitian bashing" is simply repeating what you wrote:
"The majority of Haitians (middle and Upper-Class) knows how to speak French sir."
In most of the world the middle class is rather small and the elite more so,in third world countries including DR that population is even smaller and in the poorest country in the hemisphere practically non-existent!
If the truth is haitian bashing you are in for alot of bashing mon ami .
If I said that only middle and upper class Dominicans spoke Spanish that would mean that Spanish was almost no existent in DR. You need to look in the mirror and understand that most Haitians are not elites and that most are illiterates (no offense ,just the truth).
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Pep32, Have you ever been to Haiti? Because if you have, you would know that Haiti is a very complicated country and that the statistic you keep on refering too does not holds its weight in gold in relation to Haiti. But of course, your Haitian, so you already knew that.- Au-revior
Written by: antonioj, 19 Feb 2008 12:36 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Mr Pepe32 I am interested to know on what do you base your assumptions,? do you have figures and numbers?, one thing is certain there have been alot of progress in Haiti fighting illiteracy over the years.
Most dominicans are illiterates as well, it depends on what standard you want to apply.
Haitians are gifted when it comes to languages alot of them being illiterate or not speak over 3 languages. I will support MR Lautaro that spanish is gaining alot of importance in Haiti. In the border town of plateau central they speak mainly Spanish, and Creole.
Your argument regarding the elite size is laughable, please provide some statistics, your biased opinion is flagrant, and surely does not make it a fact, DR a poor country although in much better shape than Haiti have greater inequity which respect to repartition of wealth among his citizens. (no offense that is the truth)
From: United States, Brooklyn
jemesouviens1804: If you're getting pissed off then get off a dominican site and join a haitian one where i am sure you'll find alot of people there agreeing with you...
Haiti's language = Bad French = Creole
Thats what the majority speak... and majority rules. Am very certain that 5 percepnt of all haitians can read and write French... but they are only a minority... And i have met haitians and even been to that town "JUANA MENDEZ" so i know a bit of what am talking about....
Written by: Lautaro, 19 Feb 2008 9:22 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Also one have to take into account the positive impact that the cuban literacy missions have had on the increase of the literacy rate on Haiti, mr. antonioj. Although the cuban teachers have extensive knowledge of creole, it's certain that the increasing use of Spanish on Haiti depends on a great part on the popularity that these teachers have gained among the masses.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Lol.........silly Dominican, those type of tricks are for kids.
Written by: Lautaro, 19 Feb 2008 6:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Hopefully, the cold logic of trade and mutual survival will end all this petty and useless bickering between both countries, mr. jemesouviens, or at least I hope so.
From: Haiti
CarlosFranco. We Haitians speak nonsense vodou language called Creole right? Funny when someone doesn't know what they're talking about. Haitian Creole is a creole language that is predominantly of French and African origin with some influences from other languages such as Spanish and etc. The majority of the people do speak it but a considerable amount of people speak standard French as well. To Rubirosa: The French influenced Haiti's culture while the Spanish influenced the DR's. The French did horrible crimes on Haiti's side and when the Haitians revolted they punished them for their atrocities. That's what normal societies do. Spain did horrible acts and the DR still embraces and adores and worships them as if they're Spain's little child. And once again to CarlosFranco who comments like Rubirosa's twin. Being educated in Haiti doesn't make you an "elite".
From: Haiti
And Haitians are "gifted" as a society in terms of language adaptability because many many many Haitians are bilingual (Creole and French), alot are trilingual (Creole, French, and Spanish) and some are even quadrilingual (Creole, French, Spanish, and English). In that department I consider us as versatile.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Hey SHIN, I couldn't have said that any better my friend. I love it when I see Haitians standing up for their people and country. Now, Mr. Rubirosa, this is the second time that you have mentioned Haiti and hell in the same sentence.....It is the third time in which you have flagrantly violated and defamed the national origin of my family and many of my friends.The first two times, I asked you to apologize....and you did. However, this time, Im not going to waste my energy. You are one sick and demonted human being and should be ashamed to call yourself Dominican. Most of the Dominican I know are moderate and dont share the xenophobic and racist view as you. What makes this even worst sir, is that your a grown adult. You are a walking double standard. You bash Haitians for defaming Duarte's name but your quick to do the same thing to Dessaline. To put it in simple terms...You are an idiot. I wonder if your fingers dont tremble when you write something vile like that.
From: United States, Brooklyn
Duarte ended hatian oppression in the DR... Dessaline attacked the DR.... NOW DO YOU GET WHY WE BASH ON YOUR HERO... You can't do the same with us because DR never invaded haiti
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
No Carlos...I still dont get it. In 1812, The United kingdom invaded the United States....they raped, pillaged, killed, and even burned down Washington DC. Germany invaded and occupied France twice....They destroyed the French army, and oppress the local population. Portugal waged a bloody war with Angola and Mozambique, in which thousands perished. Several days after gaining independence from Portugal, Timor Leste was invaded by Indonesia, in which the Idonesian suppress the population by enforcing a curfew and banning the use of the "Portuguese" language. United kingdom imposed a system of Aparthied on South Africa, in which the majority of the population was disenfranchised....Now all of those nations I mentioned have cordial relations with the other, and the people in each dont "B**** about the crimes that the DEAD leader of the other committed on them...So this is what I dont understand.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
When you continue to live in the past, you will never know how its like to live in the future. This is the reason why Haitian-Dominican relations will never prosper.
Written by: antonioj, 20 Feb 2008 2:23 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Nicely said Mr Jemesouvien one can not live in the past, I see the Jewish and the German getting along.
Mr Lautaro you right on that one, also in the other hand research have demonstrated that the most spoken language in Cuba beside Spanish is kreyol and, that goes for DR as well. I know what I am talking about My father is cuban I am making no excuse about it, but I am Haitian 101% to the bone.
if you ever go to Cuba, you can visit town like ie (Camaguey, Holguin) or in youtube la tumba francesa
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Feb 2008 3:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
for their murderous ethnic and racial cleansing and their raping of anything that moved.
Haiti should be a UN protectorate for 100 years...
From: United States, Brooklyn
NECESSITY: as in people do whats most necessary at any given moment. Today we're friends next day we're enemies.
jemesouviens1804: Necessity forced all those nations you mentioned to learn to coexist, OK. American and Britain nearly went to war in 1928 but the treaty that regulated the number of war ship by nation actually forced them to combine forces so that they rest would follow... NECESSITY
France and Germany put their differences aside because of the cold war and the fact that neither nation was as strong or independent of the Anglo-American alliance.
antonioj: perhaps you're not being kept aware of the antisemitism coming out of Europe right now or the influence that German politician are getting from neo-Nazi groups. how long do you think the guilt trip is going to last in Germany? Israeli aggression in Palestine is turning public opinion against Israel and the Jewish cause. this is something they're waiting to happen
From: United States, Brooklyn
Also a correction, The British didn't invent the apartheid regime. the source has many roots including but not limited to the Brits....
Pepe32: "The main problem is that this is a DOMINICAN forum and the Haitians can't seem to keep out!!" RIGHT ON BROTHER
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 20 Feb 2008 8:38 PM
From: United States
Pepe32 and CarlosFranco, what do you mean this is a Dominican forum?
Why is it in english and on the web?
The web is for everyone. Stop the nonsense and elevate yourselves.
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 20 Feb 2008 8:53 PM
From: United States
Pepe32 and CarlosFranco, If you want to make this forum private (Dominican only) take it off the internet. Let me see what kind of juice you two have. In my opinion you two guys only talk absurdity.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Pepe32,
Your walking a very dangerous line by stating Haitian heroes were nothing but rapist pigs. This only reveals your xenophobic and racist views which is increasingly becoming a Dominican trademark. Your words are very vile, and I wonder if they would be the same when confronted by a group of Haitians. I suggest that you rethink the "backwards" comment you made. When you have leaders of a country powdering himself to look white, or bashing another country, writing a novel dehumanizing a nationality, in attempt to use them as a scapegoat as to why you have problems within the country.......Well sir, thats the real definition of a backward country. Let that marinate in that small brains of yours okay...Chico. We Haitians are no longer slaves, so when you attack me, I will fight back.- Au revoir.
From: Haiti
We can sign onto any forum we want so stop your bs talk on "Dominican site". Its DR-oriented but doesn't mean only Dominicans can come on here. Our country is the closest to hell according to racist, xenophobic, Rubirosa. Well the DR is the absolute polar opposite of what an ideal world we would want to live in. As jemesouviens said..the US maintains cordial and very close friendly relations with the country that formerly occupied and pillaged it. The US doesn't bash England's rulers. Our "murderous leaders" (according to CarlosFranco) had set a precedent for many other nations to come. We ended slavery and were the first example of sovereignty in regards to freeing ourselves from the European brutes. We don't say that Dominicans have to praise Dessalines or Louverture or Petion etc. but we ask that you merely acknowledge that even though Dessalines did invade your country..he is a Haitian founding father and therefore shouldn't be insulted. Frickin' hyporites like Rubirosa say we
From: Haiti
(cont) should respect Duarte when he and others like him disrespect our patriots. Keep bashing us peabrains..it only shows what people you really are. In the past our two countries were enemies. Over the centuries, relations have remained so because of your side of the island. Migrant workers (which you need) have crossed into your side by the hundreds of thousands but as you say it is out of necessity. If Haiti had a booming economy and the DR didn't (which was the case back in the 50s) that phenomenon would be in reverse. We understand your right to national security however bashing and insulting Haitians that only come to your country for work and better living is nothing short of shameful and disgraceful to your country. You claim Dessalines raped and pillaged DR but remember Trujillo and the 1937 massacre. Murdering innocent people because of their nationality. I can see this happening in a country anywhere but in the Americas (especially the Caribbean). El Salvador, Nicaragua,
From: Haiti
(cont) and Guatemala have had incidents of conflict like this but remember that El Salvador and Nicaragua were countries that came out of full-blown civil war. Massacres were commonplace. But in a Caribbean island where the only binational violation was border settlement? And CarlosFranco you said if you wanted you could call Toussaint a pig because it is a Dominican forum right? On what grounds would you be just to call the man who liberated the oppressed and founded a country a pig? If that's the case we can call your founding fathers anything we want.
From: Haiti
Thanks jemesouviens for the comment. All these biased members bashing our country..I have no choice but to defend it.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To all concerned "Creole People:
I love the way that you love portraying yourselfs as the "victims" before I never dare to enter to Dominican today till the day I saw so many "Haitians" bashing out right and left dominican goverment, dominicans, Duarte and everything "Made In DR"
So your "creole people" expected me to run like a chicken without head.
Stop being diplomatic and sensitive, you are the ones that come to these forums to behave like people without brains.
You are the ones always saying negavitve stuff about DR
If you don't like the outcome once again create your own "Creole Website" for haitians and haitians lovers.
Other than that your same old story about being the victims is really anoying and you always looking for the international community to look at you like the oppresed people porttraying dominicans as abusers.
We as a nation never force haitians to cross the border
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To:...Shin,
L'Union Fait La Force...Mon ami.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) at the end if You don't like to be there stop degrading our country without any reason.
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Feb 2008 11:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic
PS we can´t stop you from entering but it´s obvious that just like in real life you all love to enter into Dominican sites ...you say you don´t want to be like DR ,so please take the 1 million plus compatriots of yours home!
They obviously voted with their feet and no matter how many times we kick them out they keep on coming back...somehow they do not want to be in "Haiti cherie" somehow they don't buy that fantasy of greatness.Poverty I can understand ,but people who enter by the millions into a neighboring nation and have the nerve to criticize that nation deserve no respect at all!
Again this is a Dominican forum and although we cannot stop you don't expect us to be gracious to people that constantly denigrate us in our own house ,that speak ill of our founding fathers,that never invaded Haiti and only repulsed their inhuman armies from our nation.
Don't expect love and hugs because the more time you spend in our house the less welcome you will become .
We can have all th
Written by: Pepe32, 20 Feb 2008 11:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Haitians and Haiti are in no position to give advice to the Dominican Republic or anyone else except to say "everything we do,do the opposite".
Fix your own little corner of Hades and then we can talk,meanwhile we will try to fix our small imperfect little nation which is made very difficult with swarms of uneducated culturally backwards people entering into our poor and already backwards nation.
Every small contribution in cheap labour is overshadowed by the huge social cost,the cultural slide and the demographic Kosovo like threat that such massive immigration is a short time implies.
From: Haiti
I understand your point Pepe the Jefe however you must understand that we speak ill of the country that harbors so many of our people because the citizens of that country have consistently and repeatedly demonized our migrants (which helped your country's economy greatly), have shown all-out animosity to people from our country, and although your country has supposedly "helped" ours, it hasn't been out of mere neighborly goodwill but as a front to show the world that you care when we all know you don't. And nobody can make you care but not caring and insulting are two different things. Always remember that our two countries will forever be bounded together and the more you see Haiti as being hell itself than the sooner you'll realize that it is then your precious DR which is truly the closest country to hell and there's nothing you can ever do about it. "Inhuman army". Please. The Spaniards and French were as inhuman as you can get yet you adore your European colonizers.
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 21 Feb 2008 2:26 AM
From: United States
To all bloggers, I was informed by Dominican authorities that the views of JRRubirosa, Pepe32, and CarlosFranco, do not represent the views of Dominicans. Those individuals mentioned above are considered to be Dominican outcasts and undesirables.
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Feb 2008 7:48 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
LOL :-), that's what I have been telling them time and again, mr. John. If they have complains about the haitian presence on the DR, then all they need to do is to appraise the business and political class about them, seeing as how the aforementioned sectors are the chief culprits for the current migrational disorder. I'm sure that those sectors would be glad to apply their tender mercies to those radical chaps, that is, those chaps would be risking a sound thrashing, a night in jail, or worse, a bullet in the head, because all that those sectors will ever care about is for the well being of their bottomless pockets.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Feb 2008 11:04 AM
From: Dominican Republic
nuestra Patria.
O sea que solo a los grandes empresarios y terratenientes les conviene esta inmigración desfrenada, pero a nosotros como nación no.
Written by: Lautaro, 21 Feb 2008 11:34 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Para bien o para mal ellos (las élites) son los que tienen el poder y eligen a los que gobernarán el país, Pepe. Mientras que a ellos les convenga, la situación se mantendrá como está, gústenos o no, y para rematar, ellos cuentan con las Fuerzas Armadas, y en defecto de estas, las del Comando Sur del Ejercito de Estados Unidos para afirmar su voluntad (no ignoras los hechos de abril del 1965, ¿o si?).
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Johnusa: Really?? who gave you the authority to speak on behalf of the free and independent minds in the whole country.
Once again "haitians" like you show your ignorance and will to degrade dominican culture to take advantage of the silent haitian invasion.
FYI "all Haitians" don't take your uncivilized behavior so light and free.
Haitinas are the biggest "Threat" for the Dominican Republic "Coexistence" in the future.
Haitians want to create another "Kosovo" or "Balcanization" in our country.
Question for the creole people??
What happen to Sonia Pierre???
She suddenly vanished right???
Seems to be that her biased agenda was downplayed by smart people not believing the haitian absurd believing that We have to remain in the shadows so They could do as they please.
"Enough is Enough"
NO more silent invasion......................."Duarte, Sanchez y Mella" and God bless the motherland "Spain"
No more lies and victimization on Haitians to the world
Written by: antonioj, 21 Feb 2008 2:24 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Author JOHNUSA,
quote
To all bloggers, I was informed by Dominican authorities that the views of JRRubirosa, Pepe32, and CarlosFranco, do not represent the views of Dominicans. Those individuals mentioned above are considered to be Dominican outcasts and undesirables.
unquote
I will add to that pepe32, he also goes under the pseudo name of Greenwave at other forum, I do not think anyone of them will win any grammy for being smart or human
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Feb 2008 2:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro ,el punto no es si lo podemos cambiar o no sino que la entrada masiva de Haitianos a nuestra Patria solo beneficia a estos poderosos ,pero para la gran mayoría es solo es un paso hacia atrás absorbiendo un colectivo aun mas atrasado que el nuestro y cuyos gastos sociales lo cubrimos el resto de los Dominicanos y no aquellos que se benefician de ellos.
La entrada masiva de Haitianos y la historia conflictiva entre nosotros solo puede traer la balkanización de nuestra patria cuando estos hijos y nietos de Haitianos pidan mas cercanía con Haití y nosotros o nos asimilamos y desaparecemos o nos mantenemos firmes y separados .
Fue EEUU que sembró la semilla de la actual invasión pacifica (hasta ahora) pero nadie me ha podido convencer que la inmigración Haitiana es positiva para RD (solo para unos malos Dominicanos)
From: Haiti
Oh no!!! Rubirosa defend your people! The Haitian bodysnatchers have invaded! Everybody board up the doors and lock the windows! LMFAO
From: United States, Brooklyn
"To all bloggers, I was informed by Dominican authorities that the views of JRRubirosa, Pepe32, and CarlosFranco, do not represent the views of Dominicans. Those individuals mentioned above are considered to be Dominican outcasts and undesirables."
jajajajajajaj... thats the rhetoric for the international community idiot. Since i have nothing to lose by expressing my views unlike government official who can't speak their minds publicly, i openly express my fears of having a nation like Haiti bordering us, playing the victim, hoping for the world to rescue them, undermining our culture, etc... and they are legitimate fears, Haiti is a nation that harbors hatred for Dominicans and is fullish to assume that if Haiti were to rise to our lever or higher that they would not do the same....
By the way which Authority informed you of that? The president? Dominicantoday? funny i haven't heard anything, which makes it unofficial
From: United States, Brooklyn
you call Haitians humans as oppose to Dominicans... You people have been murdering each other since independence, you could us a little military intervention by France again, to civilized your violent society.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Last time I checked, Dominicans were murdering, killing, and raping their own people just like the Haitians, Americans, Canadians, French, Spaniards, Brazilians, Swedes, and all other nationality. So Carlos, you really need to make sure your comment makes sense before you post it. If you dont, then you run the risk of being embarassed by a Haitian like me.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Jemmesouviens: as far as I know UN (blue helmets) are in Haiti right now so that says a lot about the law and order issue that Haiti has.
Sorry to say but till all your people don't stop pushing your hidden agenda there will always be animosity.
From: United States, Brooklyn
The best thing that happened to Haiti was Aristy when he was truly democratically elected... and look how that ended up... Please enlighten me, about a period of time since independence and thus under haitian leadership, in which the haitian people were NOT suffering. There are no good political moments in your history, except when you had your little empire and Dominicans as your unwanted catholic subjects.
Erasing our culture didn't work, and you people did try to make us illiterate like the rest of you by shutting down the university among many other countless crimes
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To CarlosFranco: Hey dear friend and brother just to give you the million dollar news I don't know if You know that "J Bertrand Aristide" had the guts once that He was invited to DR in a diplomatic event with the goverment, He demanded from our goverment quote "I will not ride on any roadway, highway or road on the DR with Duarte name on it under not circumstances.
That tells you dear brother all animosity from Haitians against Dominicans and at the end is too obvious and clear.
Anyway keep the good work fighting for our country and people.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Oh please thats nothing.....Aristide not wanting to ride on any highway that has Duarte name. The truth of the matter is that Aristide never tried to powder himself to look white.....No Haitian politician waste his time writing a novel in which he bashes Dominicans/D.R. Despite what you want to think, Haitians have better things to do then spend their time bashing Dominicans. On the other hand though your like some of your politicians....blaming Haitians and the so called "Haitian threat" for everything thats wrong in the DR. Carlos, I think you need to re-evaluate you country because last time I checked, some of you people were banning "Blacks" from entering their clubs. You cant get more "backwards" than that.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
To jemmesouviens: thanks for your honest opinions "I really appreciate that" and at the same time keeping the good work for "Haiti" is not bad at all as long as You and Your people learn and respect "Dominican Republic" the way it is.
Keep fighting for your country with honesty and truth and You will see the results.
Written by: antonioj, 22 Feb 2008 6:11 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Written by: Lautaro, 22 Feb 2008 6:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I hope that treaty to force the dominican elites to leave their speculative, easy buck practices (i.e. investing on remittance houses or "casas de cambio" instead of investing their money on a much needed industrialization of the country), and in the haitian ones to stop their fear of dominican interference on their political process. Also, this trade pact would help to save a lot of time on the trading process, time that is wasted on annoying, senseless bureaucratic procedures, and hopefully, serve as the vehicle in which the much needed investments would finally arrive into Haiti (with the proper rules regulating their action, of course).
Written by: antonioj, 22 Feb 2008 7:58 PM
From: Canada, home safe
To: JRRubirosa
I have been following your ampiousness toward Haitian, I must admit you are not the brightest bulb.
Feel free to pick up any topic DR vs Haiti in any of these languages :English, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Kreyol.
I will debunk any of your brainwashed, biased propaganda, including all the myth that you were fed....it's a shame, you are a so call intellectual, yet you are imcapable of carrying a balance conversation, your ignoramous opinion does not make it the truth, or neither right.
Please educate our fellow bloggers , when was the last time you have done due dilligence which respect to most of the garbages that you have so far posted.? do not worry I will wait...
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Antonioj: You want to sound like a tough guy RIGHT???
If you care so much about Haiti what Have you done to help your country along with your people other than discrediting and saying negative stuff about DR?
Tell me something positive that Your people have done for your country
Is easy to blame others before taking responsability and assuming responsabilities.
You sound too sensitive and fragile BUDDY
For 100th time why somebody like You don't create a "Creole website" for haitians
Is easy to como to "Dominican Today" to spew absurd ideas to benefit Haitians when
you are the ones intoxicating these blogs with your own agenda good for your people
not for dominicans.
Fight for your rights on the other side of the island not on Dominican Republic.
You need to learn the meaning of the values such a "Respect, discipline and order"
and impose these human quality definitions in Haiti.
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
(cont) don't come to these forums to police dominicans like you belong here, We have our personal opinions and whether you like or not I DON'T CARE..........................
Written by: antonioj, 22 Feb 2008 9:18 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Again you have fail to grab the gist of my posting, this goes to show flagrant lack of basic reading and understanding, you have instead chosen to ask, and answer you own questions.
I am for human rights regardless of nationalities, Haiti is a small country with a proud and heroic past, no doubt we have sin mainly due to our own fault, and other external factors, we are on the right path now, great nation will arise from their ash.
DR have been experiencing an economic boom I am glad, and carry no animosity, hoping the trickle down effect will benefits Haiti as well. You fail to give one example of Anti DRby H
Now, with your other arguments you are hard to follow and off topics, let me just point out one
ie Your suggestion to a kreyol website is ridiculous, petty, dumb, and narrow minded in the age of internet, please do your due dilligence, there are plenty of Haitians site in English, Spanish, French, creole where Haitians, Dominicans, and others debate respectfull
Written by: antonioj, 22 Feb 2008 9:37 PM
From: Canada, home safe
cont
I believe in free press, and freedom of expression do you ? you may not care about my opinion until it disagree with yours, your logic or your lack of it, is an interesting one. I promise to respond tit for tat for every ill coordinate attempt to mislead the forum, or to anonymously spew your anti Haitian rant.
Written by: JOHNUSA 
, 23 Feb 2008 2:18 AM
From: United States
JRRubirosa, you are such a cry baby. Always crying about something. Go draw on a pacifier.
Written by: antonioj, 23 Feb 2008 12:42 PM
From: Canada, home safe
From: United States, Brooklyn
What is it that all the haitians in this site seek to achieve? I wonder
Written by: antonioj, 23 Feb 2008 7:47 PM
From: Canada, home safe
What is it that all the haitians in this site seek to achieve? I wonder
Getting to know you , learn from you , share information, respect each other, agree and disagree, break some of the myth and prejudices.
Ademas compartimos la misma isla no, hay alguno problema, estoy cometiendo un delito ?.
Let me add, very strange commentary coming from someone living in the country of Uncle Sam the land of the free.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
what I want to achieve is to break the misconception that Dominicans have of Haitians and to learn more about the DR and its beautiful people...Im not interested in uniting Hispaniola and Im not here to start no hostilities...But at the same time I will defend Haiti/Haitians from anyone that portrays a malice view towards us. I will do the same for Mexicans, Peruvians, Cubans, Brazilians, Americans, Swedes, Angolans, etc. This is what I want to achieve alright.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Apparently "DominicanToday" allows some of its Dominican readers to unleash their xenophobic, racist, and disparaging views about Haitians, Haiti, and some of their national heroes without blocking or deleting their comments. I find it very unfair that Carlos can call Jean-jacques Dessaline all this kinds of sick and despickable names but when I write a comment responding back to him, it gets deleted. When it comes to Haitian-Dominican relations, it seems like the poor Haitian will always remain a poor Haitian, because as I see it, there is no middle ground.
Written by: Lautaro, 25 Feb 2008 1:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
All this senseless and useless bashing from both sides would stop if the people belonging to one side all the other would just sit and analyze the context and the times in which the heroes of both countries existed, therefore, I conclude: 1- To my fellow dominicans: it's a show of bad faith to go on bashing Dessalines, considering that a good part of the present article is done in order to honor him in some way, and that, even though it's true that he and his brothers in arms committed certain atrocities, you have to take into account that he was in the middle of a deadly war of extermination against a hated foe that wasn't willing to give any quarter and that only presented him and his fellows with two options: surrender and be enslaved, or die. 2- To my haitian neighbours: while it's true that Duarte's legacy have been misused by the elites, it's an utter calumny to say that he was a racist, by the fact that he admitted people of colour on the Trinitarios ranks (Sanchez) and (cont.)
Written by: Lautaro, 25 Feb 2008 1:59 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) and that Duarte understood that, without the help from people of colour and the blacks of the country, the dominican independence project would have been impossible to carry out, seeing as how the majority of the country was (and is) composed by mixed and black people in a 85%. Even your celebrated historian Jean Price Mars acknowledged the nobility of purpose in Duarte's plans, and that's saying something, because Price Mars was the haitian intellectual who most bitterly regretted the dominican independence, he also foresaw, fifty years from his time (1957), the current migrational movement of your compatriots to the DR and the conflict arising from it, because, at his time, the continued expropiation of the plots of land belonging to the haitian peasants by the military governments, coupled with their continuous demographic growth, would push them to seek better life on the cities (Port-Au-Prince, Gonaives, Le Cap), or, by the default, to the neighbouring country (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 25 Feb 2008 2:03 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The other thing that you have to take into account is that Duarte, the white elites and the rest of the population were reacting to: a) the confiscations against white propietors that the haitian government was carrying out, due to the coloured-only propietor clause of your former Constitution , b) its plans for supressing the Catholic faith and Spanish languages from the eastern part of the island, and c) its plans of forcing the easterners to contribute in the payment of the independence debt that France forced on Haiti in order for the former to recognize the independence of the latter. The easterners regarded (with reason) that they didn't have to pay for the broken dishes of a struggle in which they didn't take any part whatsoever. Lastly, again, to my dominican brothers, if you want to understand the why's of Dessalines conduct, then feel free to read the biography of his foe, the Viscount of Rochambeau, there you'll find an example of a man-beast without any vestige of mercy.
From: Haiti
Lautaro you're the most sensible Dominican on here. Good insight and yes Rochambeau was the devil incarnate. Fact is that the founding fathers of both countries played a pivotal role in the independence struggles of the Americas.
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 6:15 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro,very good balanced post.
I would have had no problems with Dessalines or Boyer if they had stayed on the western third of the island,I understand why the present day Haitians ancestors revolted against the brutal regime and consider their initial actions perfectly justifiable (if not admirable) until they crossed the border and attempted to impose their way of seeing the world ,"their" language, remove our religious beliefs and impose an upside down pigmentocracy just as bad as the one implemented by the Europeans .
Now as a Dominican we did not deal with Rochambeau so the only devil incarnate we dealt with was Dessalines (and other "westerners") as we say "un mal no justifica otro mal”.
So while I understand that intellectually these were simply actions and reactions as a Dominican my interests are not to understand why Haitians (or US) invaded us but to see the result and the way these invasions were carried out,
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 6:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic
so in a nutshell while I see the Haitian reaction to the French as understandable that understanding breaks down the moment they crossed the border and tried to wipe out our laws, our language, our religion, our culture in general and many of our people. Unfortunately this did not occur once but several times and the footnote still present in the Haitian constitution of one island indivisible is a real nasty point as far as DR is concerned.
Haitians are constantly in Dominican spaces (both real and virtual) invading and telling us how we should view ourselves and how we should view history and how we should deal with Haitians and what we should be proud of or not feel proud of which is in itself an affront especially since they obviously don't have the moral ground to be advising anyone on how to conduct themselves.
We as Dominicans are not perfect nor do we consider ourselves some "great empire" and a gift to humanity.
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 6:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
We love our nation in spite of her imperfections and we argue amongst ourselves as to improving our nation. We argue about all subjects amongst ourselves but Haitians don't understand that we are very leery of any advice (even if it's sincere) from Haitians (or US and to a lesser extent Spain) because of valid historical reasons .Haitians should realize that given their history with us (no we don't think you saved us!!) they should let us deal with our own internal racial, political, economic and social issues and concentrate on bettering their own nation.
True peace cannot be built without respect and respect cannot be built by someone who enters your house and acts like an enemy. We need a prosperous and stable Haiti for the sake of our cherished Republica Dominicana .
PS. We have torn down or removed any references to Trujillo and his disgusting regime so we obviously as a nation feel no pride in his "accomplishments" yet many men who committed similar actions against us are
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 6:29 PM
From: Dominican Republic
still revered and saying that Rochambeau was a bloodthirsty monster does no minimize the "smaller" monstrosity of Dessalines and other westerners!
Hate breeds hate breeds hate ad infinitum and no evil action should be justified even if it could be understood .
Pepe
Written by: antonioj, 25 Feb 2008 9:42 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Mr Lautaro your source of knowledge is a joy, brillant, and refreshing. I read your previous commentary I must admit I have been stealing some of them. I have so far learn more then I did back in university.
Well balance posting
Now, I am looking for :
DR history from an independent source or reliable author
H history from an independent source or reliable author
I will be thankfull to you, if you can provide such information
Nicely said pepe32, although I do not agree with everything completely, however you are a formidable debator
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 9:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio,too bad you are not as amenable in the other forum...
As far as agreeing I really believe that if most intelligent people were to discuss issues "without passion" there would be less disagreements.
I can remove myself from passion and that gets me into trouble with most people ,including Dominicans for example Dessalines...from a Haitian perspective I understand why he would be seen as a hero ,but you must also understand why to us as Dominicans he was a villainous murderer "our Rochambeau".
True history is usually very insipid and boring except for those of us that love history without all the emotional dressing. Moralizing is a sign of false history because one man's hero is another's villain but the true facts are those that cannot be denied.
Pepe
Written by: Lautaro, 25 Feb 2008 9:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
On the DR´s case, you can check out the following:
1- Moya Pons, Frank ."The Dominican Republic: A National History" (Hispaniola Books: New Rochelle, NY, 1995)"
2- Roberto Cassa, Los doce años: Contrarevolución y desarrollismo, 2nd ed. Santo Domingo: Editora Buho 1991
On Haiti's case:
1- Price-Mars, Jean. "La République d'Haïti et la République Dominicaine (1953)". Sociedad Dominicana de Bibliófilos. Santo Domingo, 2006.
2- James, C.L.R. (1989). The Black Jacobins. Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution. (2nd Ed., Revised) New York: Vintage Press. ISBN 0-679-72467-2.
Enjoy, :-)
Written by: Lautaro, 25 Feb 2008 10:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Or if you are still unsatisfied, try the following:
DR
1- Bosch, Juan. "De Cristóbal Colón a Fidel Castro". Editora Taller. Santo Domingo, 2006.
2- Bosch, Juan. "Pentagonismo, sustituto del imperialismo ". ibidem.
3- Bosch, Juan. "La guerra de la Restauración en Santo Domingo". ibidem.
4- Bosch, Juan. "Capitalismo tardío en la República Dominicana". ibidem.
Haiti
1- Dubois, Laurent. "Avengers of the New World: The Story of the Haitian Revolution" The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. Cambridge, MA. 2004. ISBN 0-674-01304-2
2- Parkinson, Warden. "This Gilded African". Quartet Books. London. 1978
3- Davis, H.P. "Black Democracy: The Story of Haiti". Lincoln Mac Veagh, The Dial Press. Toronto. 1928
4- Plummer, Brenda Gayle. "Haiti and The United States: The Psychological Moment". The University of Georgia Press. Athens, Georgia. 1992. ISBN 0-8203-1423-4
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Pepe, you stated that true peace can not be achieved without repect, but you go about disrespecting Dessalines name. It would be helpful if you would practice what you preach. I'm starting to think that the majority of Dominicans don't want relations to prosper. This makes me realize that its "Business as usual" when it comes to Haitian/Dominican relation.
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 11:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic
jemesouviens ,I believe you read but did not absorb what I wrote ,selecting only the part you wish and ignoring the rest!
I am Dominican I as such I cannot see Dessalines as anything other than a bloodthirsty monster who racially cleansed,raped and plundered my nation.I can no more accept him than you could Rochambeau or any of your ancestors French overlords or for that matter Jews accepting Hitler or Armenians accepting the Ottoman Turks and the apologetic Turkish Republic. etc.
I do not remove your right to view him as a hero ,nor can you expect Dominicans to view him as such or respect his "contributions" to us.
You see you confuse "respect" with agreement and I believe that respect is accepting your right to believe what you wish (as a person and as a nation) as long as you respect OUR right to feel the way we do and understanding that Dessalines did to us many of the same things the French did to you.Once you understand where we are coming from and respect that we never
Written by: Pepe32, 25 Feb 2008 11:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic
wanted to be Haitian in any way shape or form you will begin to respect.
Let us sort out our issues while you fix your own nation which is in our mutual interest.
Pepe
Written by: antonioj, 26 Feb 2008 2:00 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Pepe32 to tell you the truth Dessaline is the founder of our nation, however most Haitian really admire Toussaint he is my real Hero. If our independence was done by Toussaint the Haiti that we know today would have been totally different.
"
Let us sort out our issues while you fix your own nation which is in our mutual interest" I can not disagree with this
Mr Lautaro Thank you for the information provided, I have my plate full now.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Well said antonioj, but I cannot let no one dehumanize and label Haitians heroes as "racist, blood thirsty pigs" no matter if its, Petion, Louverture, Christophe, or Dessaline. It is very imperitive that Haitians everywhere in the world defend their country and those who found it from anyone who would dehumanize them in the worst way. If we dont do it, who else is going to.
Written by: Perez, 10 Mar 2008 4:38 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Holy cow. I got a headache after reading all comments! I love the way this ended! like true leaders! let me say a few things. 1) let's end the hate between DR and Haiti. 2) I love My DR but never will consider Spain my motherland. (we are Sudacas after all according to many SPANIARDS.. 3) I never liked or celebrated dia de la Raza, nor put any importance to it. 3) I never admire or worship Colon (don;t know y the built el faro colon instead of naming after our heroes) and finally 4) I love seeing the tap taps. I really love their artwork. Heck, i would love to paint images on my truck! So please let's love each other. Lautaro tu eres un bien representante de nosotros Dominicanos. Lautaro For President!
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Mar 2008 9:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
jejejjej, thank you for your kind words, mr. Perez. I'm just following Duarte's true ideals (not the twisted garbage that the elite have tried to indoctrinate us with in order to fill their antihaitian ranks), these true ideals being justice, freedom and equality for all, in order to build an island where divisions of class, color, or national origin are only things of the past. Granted, there are and there always will be many obstacles on the way, but that doesn't and can not prevent us from doing our utmost to surpass all those petty differences and rivalries that the dark legacy of colonialism has thrown in our way.
Written by: Perez, 11 Mar 2008 3:44 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro, I hear you, I sometimes wonder...is there hope for DR? Im so sick of the system!!! That is why nobody want to respect us.
From: United States Virgin Islands
I am happy I found this site. I have been involved with Haiti and DR for over 40 years. The two countries are mostly black and I do not see why you do not unite into one country. It does not have to be total unification because of French/Creole and Spanish spoken on the island. However it can be a unification such as St.Marteen/St. Martin. Those two countries live in absolute peace and there is no real border. I said that I am glad to have found this site because it is good to see interaction between Dominicans and Haitians. In reading all of your comments, there is one thing that everyone missed. The Haitian occupation of DR in 1822 was overall a positive event for DR. Especially, for the blacks. Starting in1791 due to the Haitian Revolution, Toussaint abolished slavery on the entire island. However, slavery was re-established by Spain thereafter. President Boyer in 1822 freed the slaves once again. Blacks in DR should thank Haiti. The losers were white Spaniards.
Written by: Lautaro, 13 Mar 2008 11:34 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It's all the fault of the interest groups existing on both sides, mr. peters, the same groups that occupies themselves in stirring the flag-waving and other BS attitudes whenever something is going wrong with their petty enrichment schemes. From my personal point of view, that kind of federation will only be successful if both countries are on the same footing from an economical (and social) point of view, as a means for avoiding the customary jealousies to flare up. To propose carrying out a complicated step as that with the existing conditions (that is, whitout external financial and logistical aid as, say, a Marshall Plan) is nothing short of suicidal. As I said on another posts, Haiti has never been truly rebuilt after all those civil wars, so it's a duty from the international community to step in to help them, and to leave that hypocritical attitude of them of asking Haiti to pay their foreign debt without receiving something in return.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
What I think can improve Haitian-Dominican relations is a national t.v. series broadcast in both countries. something like a "Real World" show. You take a couple of Dominicans who have negative fews of Haitians and let them stay with a Haitian family for about six months. Then you do the same thing with the Haitians. I gaurentee you, peoples perception will start to change.
From: United States Virgin Islands
To: Jemesouviens1804
That is a great idea!!! I have lived in DR and Haiti and I know what the stereotypes are on both sides of the island. DR and Haiti can learn a great deal from St. Martin / St. Marteen. Two cultures on one island. See:
http://www.geographia.com/st-martin . To make a greater impact, the Dominicans would have to live in Haiti for 6 months and the Haitians would have to live in DR for 6 months. Someone should pitch the idea to ColorVision in DR and Television Nationale d'Haiti. Then, you would have to get Haiti and DR sponsors like Presidente:
http://www.presidente.com.do/flash.html and
http://www.barbancourt.net . The two countries do not like each other so it would not be easy to get a program like this going. However, it is not impossible, there are non-racist people that will go for it. It is worth the try. So, JemeSouviens, do you think you can do this on your own? Pitch the idea to the networks? They may actually pay you for the idea.
Written by: Lautaro, 14 Mar 2008 9:27 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
In the DR's case, I think that Telecentro would be more willing to implement the idea, since they have more experience with real tv shows than any other media group. Have any of you seen some of their shows (La Casa de Cristal, Operación Hispaniola, etc.)?
From: United States Virgin Islands
Michael Madsen, brewer and politician: born Port-au-Prince 27 August 1942; (two daughters, one adopted son); died Kenscoff, Haiti 24 March 2007. Michael Madsen was one of the wealthiest, and therefore most powerful, men in Haiti long before he went into politics by founding the Parti Libéral d'Haiti (Haitian Liberal Party) in 2004. He will, however, be remembered by his countrymen for something he founded 30 years earlier, the Brasserie Nationale d'Haiti - the Haitian National Brewery - which gave their rum-swigging nation its own national beer, Prestige,
http://www.schenckco.com/product_imported.htm#haiti for the first time.
Read rest of article...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news....uaries/michael-madsen-449458.htmlFrom: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Im very interested in doing something like this but its like I don't know the way to get the idea out there. How would I even go about contacting those media companies. Whatever suggestion you two have would be useful.
Written by: , 7 Apr 2008 11:33 PM
From:
Antonio Creole is Spoken only from the Ignorant SLANES WHO COULD NOT learn to speak FRENCH.So please do not compare it to Spanish,or French,where do you com from to write that 32 millio n peoplo speak CRAYZOL.look at the way that i spell SLAVES,that is creyyeole to a CIVILIZE languege.We Dominicans learn how to Speak spanis ,so we dont have to learna new leguage.BECAUSE WE WERE HAITINS TO DOMMMMMMM.TO LEARN FO#####in French.PARDON MY CRYLE MyMOther Langue is SPANISH
.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
This seems that it will never end......Carbelk99, you my friend is the face of racism and should be ashamed. The fact of the matter is that Dominicans can be considered to be of African descent as much as Haitians can. In a country were almost 80% of the people have black blood, you mean to tell me that they cannot consider himself/herself of African descent. It seems like you have a problem with "Black". Sadly to say Im not surprised, because your most likely Dominican. Whoever it is that wrote that disbarraging comment about "Kreyol"(thats how you spell it) is only hurting the way other people view Dominicans and D.R. Despite what you think millions of Haitians speak both French and Kreyol. If you think that Kreyol is a slave language then I suggest you stop speaking your own slave language(Spanish) and start speaking Latin.
From: Haiti
Despite good intentioned efforts to learn from one another and debate like true neighbors on the part of Dominicans like Lautaro and even (though I reluctantly say this) Pepe32, self-hating monkeybrains like carbelk99 continuate that view of the DR being seen as a prejudicial biased racist country. He makes Rubirosa seem welcoming. Poor guy, carbelk wishes his country had no African descent but carbelk the DR has plenty, yes we know it hurts you to hear that.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Apr 2008 11:24 PM
From: Canada, home safe
I would not add any credence to what ever comment that Rubirosa,Pepe32, carbelk99, and Greenwave may subject the forum. They are a bunch of self hatred ignorant losers, that at best should be left alone with their delusions.
I have debated Pepe32 in several forums, I was hoping by now, he should have known better. I guess it's difficult to teach, and reason with those individuals in DR, that were endoctrined with false propaganda ideologies imposed by their elite.
I guess all of them need an hobby after all. What a waste ?
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
I am Dominican-Haitian-Jewish and sometimes or at times, I often wish I did not carry the blood of neither Countries.
Yet there are times, when I look at the rich culture, the humanity (Although lack there of) and the history of the whole Island I realize that I am part of two remarkable outstanding Worlds that could have done way a lot better to co-exist with one another respectfully and I hate myself for it that I can not get through neither one of them. That is the saddest bitter-sweet reality anyone should have to live with.
From: Haiti
That's life Hispanolo. Sad but true.
Written by: Pepe32, 31 Jul 2008 12:08 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Dessalines=Hitler
Asesino en masa despiadada bestia bruta escupo sobre su tumba y pido que su gente dejen de entrar en mi país,no son bienvenidos!
From: United States Virgin Islands
St. Martin y St. Marteen: Una isla con dos costumbres, culturas y idiomas diferente. Porque Haiti y Republica Dominicana (Frances y Espanol) no quiere estar tranquillo como St. Martin y St. Marteen?
La isla en la mitad norte es francesa y se llama Saint Martin y la capital es Marigot. La mitad sur es holandesa, se llama Sint Maarten y la capital es Phillisburg. Sólo cartelitos indicadores separan estos límites, así que se puede transitar tranquilamente por toda la isla. Lo ideal es alquilar un auto para recorrer la isla, hay muchos lugares para explorar. Con un mapita, que te regalan en todos los comercios, es imposible perderse. La parte francesa es justamente una porción de Francia en el Caribe, su gente, sus costumbres, sus excelentes restaurantes son típicamente franceses. Toda la isla es un paraíso de compras. En Phillisburg se pueden adquirir joyas, licores y perfumes. En Marigot, se consigue ropa de las marcas francesas y italianas más afamadas.
Written by: Lautaro, 31 Jul 2008 7:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
That would be a wonderful idea to apply on this island, but sadly, that idea has one very big IF, this one being that it would only be possible to achieve this ideal status if and only if the International Community finally decides to reconstruct Haiti instead of putting the burden squarely on DR´s shoulders as it has been doing until the present day, Docpeters. The case being all the more poignant if you consider the fact that the DR is also a Third World country with enough problems involving its dreadful distribution of the wealth. As the EU experience have shown, the idea of free transit can only be safely applied when the economic playing field is equal among the member countries of any given Union, an equality that shines for its absence in the case of our beloved Quisqueya. In short, the conditions for the establishment of a successful Zollverein or confederacy among the countries of the island are close to nonexistent, my friend.
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To my dear friend Pepe32,
Trujillo= Saddam Hussein
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
I disagree with your statement that DR is a third world country, Lautaro. DR is a moderately developed country with an ever increasing economy. It has surpassed the "Third world" era and has become one of the most influential nation within Latin America. I believe you are selling your country short my friend. Haitians are still cramming themselves inside little "Tap-taps" while Dominicans have a very impressive transportation system. However, there seems to be a little "l'espoir" in the air for Haiti. I've come across many good news about Haiti in the form of infrastructure improvements as well as other types of news. Seems like we are finally on the right path. Let me know if you want to see the vids.
Written by: Lautaro, 1 Aug 2008 8:19 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I was referring to the fact that, even though it posess an impressive reservoir of natural resources and capabilities of creating wealth, the DR, like Brazil, have been unable to eliminate the gap separating the rich from the poor, souviens. What is worse, the current technological age have only widened the gap, a thing that, coupled with the governments inability to tax the rich, puts the burden squarely on the shoulders of the middle class and some of the well off among the poor. The fact is made all the more poignant when we consider that countries like Costa Rica, or even Cuba, have made a lot more for their citizens, in terms of public health, education, housing and general welfare, despite having less resources, and not having 50 years of continuing economic growth, like the DR have had the benefit to experience. What does that tells you? simple, that the resources of those 50 years of economic growth are massively concentrated on only a few pockets. (cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 1 Aug 2008 8:30 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) Granted, you can find a lot of impressive buildings and other infrastructure right now on SD, Santiago and other cities of the country, but monuments are inadequate parameters from which to measure the welfare and development levels of a country at best, specially if the educational levels of the citizenry finds themselves leaving a lot to be desired, if what international sources tells us about the DR ones is to be taken into consideration.
From: United States Virgin Islands
To Jemesouviens: I just came from Haiti and I have seen improvements especially on Ile A Vache Island ( see www.port-morgan.com ) and in Labadie. Royal Caribbean is expanding the recreation area in Labadie. We currently have a group working on two projects on the northcoast of Haiti. On Tortuga Island and New Kiskeya. For Tortuga we have not been able to get investors to get involved as of yet. Tortuga have the best beaches for kitesurfing in the entire caribbean. Better than Cabarete in DR. I am surprised investors have not jumped on the opportunity yet. Condo Construction began on New Kiskeya but the project slowed down because of the corrupted Haitian government. The websites for the projects are as follows: www.ilelatortue.com , www.nkfz.com, www.clubindigo.net . Club Indigo is the old Club Med (renovated) under the Duvalier regime. JemeSouviens, if you have any other examples of improvements going on in Haiti, I would like to know. Haiti will become better eventually.
Written by: Lautaro, 4 Aug 2008 4:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
What about the Môle Saint-Nicolas, Docpeters? Isn't there any initiative in place to develop such a strategic outpost?
Written by: antonioj, 4 Aug 2008 8:05 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"
HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 4 Aug 2008 4:50 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro I'm sure you know of Mole Saint-Nicolas' strategic potential but here's a link anyway:
http://haiti-science.com/haitech/2art9.htm"
The problem is Haiti have missed the boat on so many opportunities that is no longer funny
mainly due to their nationalistic nature and some corrupt dictators whereas DR have always been open and their dictators were better.
For some reason I feel there is no turning back this time around, granted I never felt like that about Haiti before, once Madam is rectified, hope the money will flow as promised, and the projects in the drawing board, if only half is conclusive, no doubt Haiti will be in better shape than it is now.
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Aug 2008 9:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
To my dear friend Jemesouviens
Dessalines and Boyer= Adolf Hitler
Written by: antonioj, 6 Aug 2008 10:24 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"
Pepe32, 6 Aug 2008 9:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
To my dear friend Jemesouviens
Dessalines and Boyer= Adolf Hitler
"
pepe32= greenwave el mago
anything else ?? genius
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Aug 2008 10:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio=Anti Dominicano=semi-analfabeto con cara de borracho
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Aug 2008 10:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonio ,why don't you tell my compatriots how you truly feel about Dominicans....
You are such a hypocrite and such an imbecile ,people like you are the reason Haiti is where it is...
You live in Dominican forums looking for a raison d'être to your obviously miserable existence because you are a half wit that can't write correctly in English ,Spanish and most likely French yet somehow coming to Dominican forums makes you feel victorious for "Haiti cherie" while the real Haiti crumbles ,if you and other Haitians spent half of the effort that you spend focusing on DR on Haiti you might stand a chance otherwise without the half-witted Haitian "elites" you are doomed with your disaster crossing the border and bringing the "world renowned" Haitian cultural contributions to the already impoverished and complicated República Dominicana.
I pity you and your nation ,but we cannot and will not let you drag us down with you .
Pobre Diablo!
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Aug 2008 10:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Interesting ,one writes to yomerecuerdo and asstonio responds...
Great article and interesting way of telling yourstory. Yes we are a very proud people and as you mention hinders our growth. Tell Monsieur Alexis, if he wants the diaspora to come back to haiti that they should consider "la double nationalité" which would give the diaspora full access to rebuilding haiti and having a voice. Tell him that many government officials already hold foreign passports while in office which is a violation of the current law. Tell him that once the diaspora comes back that they must respect them and appreciate their open mindness rather than make blood come out of a work "hard headed". Mesi anpil.
Those rum punches at the RAM concert were really strong. We had a BLAST!!!
Great article. I love your writting style. Keep up the good work. Spread the word about the need to help Haiti and the poor.
Tom
Once again, Thank you Miss Pope for thoughtful reporting!
Dessaline invaded DR... Raped and pillaged the country side... there's plenty of evidence to suggest it... Duarte on the other hand was the craftsman of the revolution... If anything duarte was a rebel against an oppressive regime who openly undermined spanish culture...
You claim that Dessaline raped and murdered your people...Can you please provide me with proof to back up that claim.
the anti Haitian agenda propaganda is well and alive. I guess it does not benefit some , if H & DR can get along.
We are portrayed as thirsty animal blood sucker !! I wonder if there was any attempt to provide more of a balance fact of history, instead of the distorted version that the Dominicans are learning
this would be the first step toward a long road of better understanding for all of us
jemesouviens1804: Re-read the comment I left on the 11. "Dessalines invaded DR... Raped and pillaged the country side... “(Key word country side.) The word rape does not insinuate the rape of a woman but I meant it as the rape of a nation... Example... "The rape of Europe" which was about stealing art during the Nazi occupation... GET IT.
jemesouviens1804:
You can go to Barnes and Nobel and read it on page 66 and 67...
And now that I have proven to you where i get that Dessilne raped and pillaged my coutnry.... please prove to me how Duarte is a Racist...
and now its your turn "HAYkickyouintheSHIN"
"CarlosFranco you claim that Haitians undermined Spanish culture. Who was the country that willingly let Spain rule over them again after their first freedom fight? DR. Haiti took matters into its own hands."
because of neglect by spanish authorities and resentment for being sold to the French, Jose Nunez de Caceres, declared Dominican independance on December 1, 1821, calling it "Haiti Espanol" 5 weeks later, Boyer was in santo domingo with an army, and 22 years of misery began for my people... this period of our history is called, "Ephemeral Independence"
This is why Dominicans chose to embrace colonization once again... they preferred the less of two evils...
I don't have time to describe the occupation it self but you can read about it online of simply buy a book. i would certanly love to read the occupation from a haitian perspective.
So how is Duarte a racist???
jemesouviens1804: You're in denial, its ok... You're not the only one. I simply asked you to go because since you hate us so much i don't think you would want to buy a book about our history and while you're at BN you can simply browse throught it without having to purchase it. Also It means that am not full of it... Like SOME PEOPLE here, who talk garbage without proof. I offered you proof and you've refuse to accept it which lets me know that you're in DENIAL and REFUSE to accept the TRUTH!!!!
To the international community They want to be the victims and push Dominicans to be weak and portray us like invaders.
It will be politcally correct to say that Haitians are abusing the good will of the DR and there is so many factors and indications that I already posted in different posts already.
Don't want to be boring and the same haitians saying the opposite know better and want to play the victim
Before that I wouldn't say negative information and by the way (TRUTH) against any founding father of Haiti but You know what one thing is being "Nice" and the next is being "Dumb"
You push us and say stuff that is offensive and negative against the DR legacy and history and then You expect us to be passive about it.
We are living in a era that if You have the courage to show me a gun on my face don't expect me to show you a knife back, expect a M-16 or a AK-47.
Stop being the victims and fight for your country on the other side of the island not on DR.
22 years of abusive occupation 1821-1844 was enough and is written on history books is not a myth.
So choose to be pollite and educated or face the collateral consequences..............IN A NICE WAY
They have the right to fight for their people and country (I give you this respect) but don't treat DOMINICANS like "Forrest Gump" making and creating data, information for your own benefit.
I might agree that some people that have business lost money but others in DR didn't and want to abuse and milk the goverment to get money back and abuse our country.
Don't be scare but you know what there is a project in the goverment and They are working to export lots of products to other countries so We don't have to sell you cheap stuff and bad quality products for your sacred and blessed people.
I got access to the information so I wait and enjoy the news once is officialy posted on the media.
The goverment is doing its best right now so We are not portrayed as " "
whatever names You want to call us, let's wait and see.
The motherland is the main and biggest donor, helper and funder of all the best and great programs, plans and projects for the whole Dominican Republic.
These are facts, not misinformation and the statistics are in the "Banco Central" and "Banco de Reservas" I don't want or neet to prove the numbers, If Everybody wants to believer "OK" other than that, I don"t care.
Spain help the Dominican Republic more than any other country so What are We supposed to do look at "France" as the motherland when We will never have something in common or related.
"God Bless the motherland SPAIN" "Sacred and Beutiful"
I being in Spain many times and is a great and honorable civilization that We could be proud to belong to..................................OLE
jemesouviens1804: My family are decendants of Galician Immigrants durig the 1850's. And as Rubirosa mentioned, Spain is a country to be proud of, not ashamed off... But thats ancient history. It is true that Spain committed many crimes but we have also fought them for our independence in 1865 remember... and won. We only reverted back into the empire so as to receive security from the Haitian threat.
Aparte de los empresarios y ganaderos principales la inmigración ilegal Haitiana es netamente negativa para nuestra Patria y es una violación de nuestra soberanía por eso las deportaciones deben de seguir y la frontera debe de ser militarizada.
Rubirosa checkout "the new apartheid" on youtube... You'll find some personal accounts of the zimbawe example you mentioned above.
So What We have to do right now side with the haitians because there is people here that already imply thaf France is the biggest donor when is not truth.
Or maybe lie and say that England or Canada are the biggest dominican donors.
If You have a GENIUS mind then is up to you to accept your nearsightness and lack of concept.
Spain is the biggest donor ($$$$$$) for Dominican Republic, so according to you MR PHD what are we suppose to do (Side with the Haitians and French????) When We don't belong to that league.
Unless that you are Haitian too???
In the meantime I really enjoy being stupid and respect the motherland and the Spanish crown.
SO OLE.............................................................................
None of your people have answer the question yet
As far as I know They did lots of wild acts in Haiti, and let me correct the main reason to elevate Spain so much, one of Your gang was implying that We have to kiss France You know what for not reason.
Is up to Haitians to adore France but don't You and your gang try to brainwash me to join You as a Zombie, I do have my knowledge, principles and agenda very clear.
Regarding the Zimbawe issue might be too complicated and deep for your gang to debate and ending up in a dead end street.
To jemesouviens: Good advice and comments, Mercy Boucop Madam Souviens
French is not your language aight. Stick to your English okay. Leave French to those who speak it.
Your people are so narrow minded, nearsighted and backwards.
jemesouviens1804
"French is not your language aight. Stick to your English okay. Leave French to those who speak it. "
DR is not your country so leave it for those real dominican citizens... And by the way YOU DON"T SPEAK FRENCH EITHER... You speak that non-sense vodoo language of Creole, which no one but haitians bother to learn
You are unlike many Dominicans on this website that spew their hatred of Haitians. You are a very liberal(in a good way), and I admire that. However, my friend, in this situation you are wrong. I was born in Haiti and my first language was French. I did not know what Creole was till I got to the U.S. Now my families in Haiti were not poor, but we certainly were not considered "Elites". So I find it difficult that in a country were most signs are in French, the President speaks French, TV is in French, and Radio is in French, you've manage to come up with only "10 percent" of the population( of 9 Million people) understanding and knows how to speak the languauge. Dont get me wrong sir, I know that Creole is a little more orally popular but 10 percent? For goodness sakes Lautaro, Creole is 90 percent french words. My father, mother, Grandmother, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins all speak French. We all cant be part of that "10" in which you describe.
My little cousin who lives with me spent 12 of his 15 years in Haiti and can attest to what I am saying. He learned to speak French through his parents and through schooling. In relation to young childrens, they mostly speak Creole at home. Now, if what you are saying is right and if the report by the "Jesuits" is true, that only speaks to people who are in the rural part of the country and have no education. The majority of Haitians (middle and Upper-Class) knows how to speak French sir. Plus theres hundred of thousands in France, Martinique, and Quebec that only speak French.
Perhaps it's also a dominican conspiracy that something of a language known as creole does exist...
The fact is that the MAJORITY of Haitians are illiterate and that small group (middle class and elite) are a tiny group in most poor countries and Haiti being the poorest by far in the hemisphere cannot have much of a middle class.
"The majority of Haitians (middle and Upper-Class) knows how to speak French sir."
In most of the world the middle class is rather small and the elite more so,in third world countries including DR that population is even smaller and in the poorest country in the hemisphere practically non-existent!
If the truth is haitian bashing you are in for alot of bashing mon ami .
If I said that only middle and upper class Dominicans spoke Spanish that would mean that Spanish was almost no existent in DR. You need to look in the mirror and understand that most Haitians are not elites and that most are illiterates (no offense ,just the truth).
Most dominicans are illiterates as well, it depends on what standard you want to apply.
Haitians are gifted when it comes to languages alot of them being illiterate or not speak over 3 languages. I will support MR Lautaro that spanish is gaining alot of importance in Haiti. In the border town of plateau central they speak mainly Spanish, and Creole.
Your argument regarding the elite size is laughable, please provide some statistics, your biased opinion is flagrant, and surely does not make it a fact, DR a poor country although in much better shape than Haiti have greater inequity which respect to repartition of wealth among his citizens. (no offense that is the truth)
Haiti's language = Bad French = Creole
Thats what the majority speak... and majority rules. Am very certain that 5 percepnt of all haitians can read and write French... but they are only a minority... And i have met haitians and even been to that town "JUANA MENDEZ" so i know a bit of what am talking about....
Mr Lautaro you right on that one, also in the other hand research have demonstrated that the most spoken language in Cuba beside Spanish is kreyol and, that goes for DR as well. I know what I am talking about My father is cuban I am making no excuse about it, but I am Haitian 101% to the bone.
if you ever go to Cuba, you can visit town like ie (Camaguey, Holguin) or in youtube la tumba francesa
Haiti should be a UN protectorate for 100 years...
NECESSITY: as in people do whats most necessary at any given moment. Today we're friends next day we're enemies.
jemesouviens1804: Necessity forced all those nations you mentioned to learn to coexist, OK. American and Britain nearly went to war in 1928 but the treaty that regulated the number of war ship by nation actually forced them to combine forces so that they rest would follow... NECESSITY
France and Germany put their differences aside because of the cold war and the fact that neither nation was as strong or independent of the Anglo-American alliance.
antonioj: perhaps you're not being kept aware of the antisemitism coming out of Europe right now or the influence that German politician are getting from neo-Nazi groups. how long do you think the guilt trip is going to last in Germany? Israeli aggression in Palestine is turning public opinion against Israel and the Jewish cause. this is something they're waiting to happen
Also a correction, The British didn't invent the apartheid regime. the source has many roots including but not limited to the Brits....
Pepe32: "The main problem is that this is a DOMINICAN forum and the Haitians can't seem to keep out!!" RIGHT ON BROTHER
Why is it in english and on the web?
The web is for everyone. Stop the nonsense and elevate yourselves.
Your walking a very dangerous line by stating Haitian heroes were nothing but rapist pigs. This only reveals your xenophobic and racist views which is increasingly becoming a Dominican trademark. Your words are very vile, and I wonder if they would be the same when confronted by a group of Haitians. I suggest that you rethink the "backwards" comment you made. When you have leaders of a country powdering himself to look white, or bashing another country, writing a novel dehumanizing a nationality, in attempt to use them as a scapegoat as to why you have problems within the country.......Well sir, thats the real definition of a backward country. Let that marinate in that small brains of yours okay...Chico. We Haitians are no longer slaves, so when you attack me, I will fight back.- Au revoir.
I love the way that you love portraying yourselfs as the "victims" before I never dare to enter to Dominican today till the day I saw so many "Haitians" bashing out right and left dominican goverment, dominicans, Duarte and everything "Made In DR"
So your "creole people" expected me to run like a chicken without head.
Stop being diplomatic and sensitive, you are the ones that come to these forums to behave like people without brains.
You are the ones always saying negavitve stuff about DR
If you don't like the outcome once again create your own "Creole Website" for haitians and haitians lovers.
Other than that your same old story about being the victims is really anoying and you always looking for the international community to look at you like the oppresed people porttraying dominicans as abusers.
We as a nation never force haitians to cross the border
L'Union Fait La Force...Mon ami.
They obviously voted with their feet and no matter how many times we kick them out they keep on coming back...somehow they do not want to be in "Haiti cherie" somehow they don't buy that fantasy of greatness.Poverty I can understand ,but people who enter by the millions into a neighboring nation and have the nerve to criticize that nation deserve no respect at all!
Again this is a Dominican forum and although we cannot stop you don't expect us to be gracious to people that constantly denigrate us in our own house ,that speak ill of our founding fathers,that never invaded Haiti and only repulsed their inhuman armies from our nation.
Don't expect love and hugs because the more time you spend in our house the less welcome you will become .
We can have all th
Fix your own little corner of Hades and then we can talk,meanwhile we will try to fix our small imperfect little nation which is made very difficult with swarms of uneducated culturally backwards people entering into our poor and already backwards nation.
Every small contribution in cheap labour is overshadowed by the huge social cost,the cultural slide and the demographic Kosovo like threat that such massive immigration is a short time implies.
O sea que solo a los grandes empresarios y terratenientes les conviene esta inmigración desfrenada, pero a nosotros como nación no.
Once again "haitians" like you show your ignorance and will to degrade dominican culture to take advantage of the silent haitian invasion.
FYI "all Haitians" don't take your uncivilized behavior so light and free.
Haitinas are the biggest "Threat" for the Dominican Republic "Coexistence" in the future.
Haitians want to create another "Kosovo" or "Balcanization" in our country.
Question for the creole people??
What happen to Sonia Pierre???
She suddenly vanished right???
Seems to be that her biased agenda was downplayed by smart people not believing the haitian absurd believing that We have to remain in the shadows so They could do as they please.
"Enough is Enough"
NO more silent invasion......................."Duarte, Sanchez y Mella" and God bless the motherland "Spain"
No more lies and victimization on Haitians to the world
quote
To all bloggers, I was informed by Dominican authorities that the views of JRRubirosa, Pepe32, and CarlosFranco, do not represent the views of Dominicans. Those individuals mentioned above are considered to be Dominican outcasts and undesirables.
unquote
I will add to that pepe32, he also goes under the pseudo name of Greenwave at other forum, I do not think anyone of them will win any grammy for being smart or human
La entrada masiva de Haitianos y la historia conflictiva entre nosotros solo puede traer la balkanización de nuestra patria cuando estos hijos y nietos de Haitianos pidan mas cercanía con Haití y nosotros o nos asimilamos y desaparecemos o nos mantenemos firmes y separados .
Fue EEUU que sembró la semilla de la actual invasión pacifica (hasta ahora) pero nadie me ha podido convencer que la inmigración Haitiana es positiva para RD (solo para unos malos Dominicanos)
jajajajajajaj... thats the rhetoric for the international community idiot. Since i have nothing to lose by expressing my views unlike government official who can't speak their minds publicly, i openly express my fears of having a nation like Haiti bordering us, playing the victim, hoping for the world to rescue them, undermining our culture, etc... and they are legitimate fears, Haiti is a nation that harbors hatred for Dominicans and is fullish to assume that if Haiti were to rise to our lever or higher that they would not do the same....
By the way which Authority informed you of that? The president? Dominicantoday? funny i haven't heard anything, which makes it unofficial
Sorry to say but till all your people don't stop pushing your hidden agenda there will always be animosity.
Erasing our culture didn't work, and you people did try to make us illiterate like the rest of you by shutting down the university among many other countless crimes
That tells you dear brother all animosity from Haitians against Dominicans and at the end is too obvious and clear.
Anyway keep the good work fighting for our country and people.
Keep fighting for your country with honesty and truth and You will see the results.
"
Deal with Europe will lead to Dominican-Haiti trade pact in 1 year, official says
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/....inican-Haiti-trade-pact-in-1-year
I have been following your ampiousness toward Haitian, I must admit you are not the brightest bulb.
Feel free to pick up any topic DR vs Haiti in any of these languages :English, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Kreyol.
I will debunk any of your brainwashed, biased propaganda, including all the myth that you were fed....it's a shame, you are a so call intellectual, yet you are imcapable of carrying a balance conversation, your ignoramous opinion does not make it the truth, or neither right.
Please educate our fellow bloggers , when was the last time you have done due dilligence which respect to most of the garbages that you have so far posted.? do not worry I will wait...
If you care so much about Haiti what Have you done to help your country along with your people other than discrediting and saying negative stuff about DR?
Tell me something positive that Your people have done for your country
Is easy to blame others before taking responsability and assuming responsabilities.
You sound too sensitive and fragile BUDDY
For 100th time why somebody like You don't create a "Creole website" for haitians
Is easy to como to "Dominican Today" to spew absurd ideas to benefit Haitians when
you are the ones intoxicating these blogs with your own agenda good for your people
not for dominicans.
Fight for your rights on the other side of the island not on Dominican Republic.
You need to learn the meaning of the values such a "Respect, discipline and order"
and impose these human quality definitions in Haiti.
I am for human rights regardless of nationalities, Haiti is a small country with a proud and heroic past, no doubt we have sin mainly due to our own fault, and other external factors, we are on the right path now, great nation will arise from their ash.
DR have been experiencing an economic boom I am glad, and carry no animosity, hoping the trickle down effect will benefits Haiti as well. You fail to give one example of Anti DRby H
Now, with your other arguments you are hard to follow and off topics, let me just point out one
ie Your suggestion to a kreyol website is ridiculous, petty, dumb, and narrow minded in the age of internet, please do your due dilligence, there are plenty of Haitians site in English, Spanish, French, creole where Haitians, Dominicans, and others debate respectfull
I believe in free press, and freedom of expression do you ? you may not care about my opinion until it disagree with yours, your logic or your lack of it, is an interesting one. I promise to respond tit for tat for every ill coordinate attempt to mislead the forum, or to anonymously spew your anti Haitian rant.
LEARN, A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE
THE CREOLE ONE OF THE MOST ROMANTIC LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY OVER 32 MILLION PEOPLES WORLD WIDE
FROM THE CARRIBEAN, LOUISIANA, AFRICA,AUSTRALIA, TO
EASTERN AND PACIFIC RIM
http://users.bigpond.com/l_arom/
http://www.frenchcreoles.com/Lang....reolelanguage/creolelanguage.html
http://www.encyclopedia.mu/Society/Language/Creolization.htm
http://www.seychelles.net/festivalkreol/ENculture.htm
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery" The great Bob Marley
What is it that all the haitians in this site seek to achieve? I wonder
Getting to know you , learn from you , share information, respect each other, agree and disagree, break some of the myth and prejudices.
Ademas compartimos la misma isla no, hay alguno problema, estoy cometiendo un delito ?.
Let me add, very strange commentary coming from someone living in the country of Uncle Sam the land of the free.
I would have had no problems with Dessalines or Boyer if they had stayed on the western third of the island,I understand why the present day Haitians ancestors revolted against the brutal regime and consider their initial actions perfectly justifiable (if not admirable) until they crossed the border and attempted to impose their way of seeing the world ,"their" language, remove our religious beliefs and impose an upside down pigmentocracy just as bad as the one implemented by the Europeans .
Now as a Dominican we did not deal with Rochambeau so the only devil incarnate we dealt with was Dessalines (and other "westerners") as we say "un mal no justifica otro mal”.
So while I understand that intellectually these were simply actions and reactions as a Dominican my interests are not to understand why Haitians (or US) invaded us but to see the result and the way these invasions were carried out,
Haitians are constantly in Dominican spaces (both real and virtual) invading and telling us how we should view ourselves and how we should view history and how we should deal with Haitians and what we should be proud of or not feel proud of which is in itself an affront especially since they obviously don't have the moral ground to be advising anyone on how to conduct themselves.
We as Dominicans are not perfect nor do we consider ourselves some "great empire" and a gift to humanity.
True peace cannot be built without respect and respect cannot be built by someone who enters your house and acts like an enemy. We need a prosperous and stable Haiti for the sake of our cherished Republica Dominicana .
PS. We have torn down or removed any references to Trujillo and his disgusting regime so we obviously as a nation feel no pride in his "accomplishments" yet many men who committed similar actions against us are
Hate breeds hate breeds hate ad infinitum and no evil action should be justified even if it could be understood .
Pepe
Well balance posting
Now, I am looking for :
DR history from an independent source or reliable author
H history from an independent source or reliable author
I will be thankfull to you, if you can provide such information
Nicely said pepe32, although I do not agree with everything completely, however you are a formidable debator
As far as agreeing I really believe that if most intelligent people were to discuss issues "without passion" there would be less disagreements.
I can remove myself from passion and that gets me into trouble with most people ,including Dominicans for example Dessalines...from a Haitian perspective I understand why he would be seen as a hero ,but you must also understand why to us as Dominicans he was a villainous murderer "our Rochambeau".
True history is usually very insipid and boring except for those of us that love history without all the emotional dressing. Moralizing is a sign of false history because one man's hero is another's villain but the true facts are those that cannot be denied.
Pepe
1- Moya Pons, Frank ."The Dominican Republic: A National History" (Hispaniola Books: New Rochelle, NY, 1995)"
2- Roberto Cassa, Los doce años: Contrarevolución y desarrollismo, 2nd ed. Santo Domingo: Editora Buho 1991
On Haiti's case:
1- Price-Mars, Jean. "La République d'Haïti et la République Dominicaine (1953)". Sociedad Dominicana de Bibliófilos. Santo Domingo, 2006.
2- James, C.L.R. (1989). The Black Jacobins. Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution. (2nd Ed., Revised) New York: Vintage Press. ISBN 0-679-72467-2.
Enjoy, :-)
DR
1- Bosch, Juan. "De Cristóbal Colón a Fidel Castro". Editora Taller. Santo Domingo, 2006.
2- Bosch, Juan. "Pentagonismo, sustituto del imperialismo ". ibidem.
3- Bosch, Juan. "La guerra de la Restauración en Santo Domingo". ibidem.
4- Bosch, Juan. "Capitalismo tardío en la República Dominicana". ibidem.
Haiti
1- Dubois, Laurent. "Avengers of the New World: The Story of the Haitian Revolution" The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. Cambridge, MA. 2004. ISBN 0-674-01304-2
2- Parkinson, Warden. "This Gilded African". Quartet Books. London. 1978
3- Davis, H.P. "Black Democracy: The Story of Haiti". Lincoln Mac Veagh, The Dial Press. Toronto. 1928
4- Plummer, Brenda Gayle. "Haiti and The United States: The Psychological Moment". The University of Georgia Press. Athens, Georgia. 1992. ISBN 0-8203-1423-4
I am Dominican I as such I cannot see Dessalines as anything other than a bloodthirsty monster who racially cleansed,raped and plundered my nation.I can no more accept him than you could Rochambeau or any of your ancestors French overlords or for that matter Jews accepting Hitler or Armenians accepting the Ottoman Turks and the apologetic Turkish Republic. etc.
I do not remove your right to view him as a hero ,nor can you expect Dominicans to view him as such or respect his "contributions" to us.
You see you confuse "respect" with agreement and I believe that respect is accepting your right to believe what you wish (as a person and as a nation) as long as you respect OUR right to feel the way we do and understanding that Dessalines did to us many of the same things the French did to you.Once you understand where we are coming from and respect that we never
Let us sort out our issues while you fix your own nation which is in our mutual interest.
Pepe
"
Let us sort out our issues while you fix your own nation which is in our mutual interest" I can not disagree with this
Mr Lautaro Thank you for the information provided, I have my plate full now.
That is a great idea!!! I have lived in DR and Haiti and I know what the stereotypes are on both sides of the island. DR and Haiti can learn a great deal from St. Martin / St. Marteen. Two cultures on one island. See: http://www.geographia.com/st-martin . To make a greater impact, the Dominicans would have to live in Haiti for 6 months and the Haitians would have to live in DR for 6 months. Someone should pitch the idea to ColorVision in DR and Television Nationale d'Haiti. Then, you would have to get Haiti and DR sponsors like Presidente: http://www.presidente.com.do/flash.html and http://www.barbancourt.net . The two countries do not like each other so it would not be easy to get a program like this going. However, it is not impossible, there are non-racist people that will go for it. It is worth the try. So, JemeSouviens, do you think you can do this on your own? Pitch the idea to the networks? They may actually pay you for the idea.
Read rest of article... http://www.independent.co.uk/news....uaries/michael-madsen-449458.html
.
I have debated Pepe32 in several forums, I was hoping by now, he should have known better. I guess it's difficult to teach, and reason with those individuals in DR, that were endoctrined with false propaganda ideologies imposed by their elite.
I guess all of them need an hobby after all. What a waste ?
Yet there are times, when I look at the rich culture, the humanity (Although lack there of) and the history of the whole Island I realize that I am part of two remarkable outstanding Worlds that could have done way a lot better to co-exist with one another respectfully and I hate myself for it that I can not get through neither one of them. That is the saddest bitter-sweet reality anyone should have to live with.
Asesino en masa despiadada bestia bruta escupo sobre su tumba y pido que su gente dejen de entrar en mi país,no son bienvenidos!
La isla en la mitad norte es francesa y se llama Saint Martin y la capital es Marigot. La mitad sur es holandesa, se llama Sint Maarten y la capital es Phillisburg. Sólo cartelitos indicadores separan estos límites, así que se puede transitar tranquilamente por toda la isla. Lo ideal es alquilar un auto para recorrer la isla, hay muchos lugares para explorar. Con un mapita, que te regalan en todos los comercios, es imposible perderse. La parte francesa es justamente una porción de Francia en el Caribe, su gente, sus costumbres, sus excelentes restaurantes son típicamente franceses. Toda la isla es un paraíso de compras. En Phillisburg se pueden adquirir joyas, licores y perfumes. En Marigot, se consigue ropa de las marcas francesas y italianas más afamadas.
Trujillo= Saddam Hussein
"
HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 4 Aug 2008 4:50 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro I'm sure you know of Mole Saint-Nicolas' strategic potential but here's a link anyway: http://haiti-science.com/haitech/2art9.htm
"
The problem is Haiti have missed the boat on so many opportunities that is no longer funny
mainly due to their nationalistic nature and some corrupt dictators whereas DR have always been open and their dictators were better.
For some reason I feel there is no turning back this time around, granted I never felt like that about Haiti before, once Madam is rectified, hope the money will flow as promised, and the projects in the drawing board, if only half is conclusive, no doubt Haiti will be in better shape than it is now.
Dessalines and Boyer= Adolf Hitler
Pepe32, 6 Aug 2008 9:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
To my dear friend Jemesouviens
Dessalines and Boyer= Adolf Hitler
"
pepe32= greenwave el mago
anything else ?? genius
You are such a hypocrite and such an imbecile ,people like you are the reason Haiti is where it is...
You live in Dominican forums looking for a raison d'être to your obviously miserable existence because you are a half wit that can't write correctly in English ,Spanish and most likely French yet somehow coming to Dominican forums makes you feel victorious for "Haiti cherie" while the real Haiti crumbles ,if you and other Haitians spent half of the effort that you spend focusing on DR on Haiti you might stand a chance otherwise without the half-witted Haitian "elites" you are doomed with your disaster crossing the border and bringing the "world renowned" Haitian cultural contributions to the already impoverished and complicated República Dominicana.
I pity you and your nation ,but we cannot and will not let you drag us down with you .
Pobre Diablo!